15/01/2018 Newsnight


15/01/2018

With Emily Maitlis. A look at Carillion and the future of public private partnership. Plus banning sugar in adverts, sexual abuse in the fashion industry and Dolores O'Riordan.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

This is a watershed moment.

Across

the public sector of the outsourced

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burst dogma has wreaked Kalinic.

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Is Carillion really the beginning

of the end for public

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private partnership,

the economic model that's dominated

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government policy for decades?

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There is no evidence of chaos and

the government is working very hard

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indeed across all Whitehall

departments to ensure that the

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liquidation of Carillion takes place

in an orderly manner which does not

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disrupt public services.

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Or is it just a bump in the road

for a policy that can't

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in practice be reversed?

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We'll ask this Downing

Street minister.

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Also tonight:

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Ten different classmates!

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This is how they used

to sell sweets to kids.

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And this is now.

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You cannot see very strong

advertising but once you start

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getting into the games and into the

stories you can see very close

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association with the toys children

receive when they get tender eggs.

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Are advertisers gaming

the rules on selling sugar?

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And we remember the Cranberries

singer Dolores O'Riordan

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who died today aged 46.

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# In your head

# In your head

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# Zombie

# Zombie

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# Zombie #

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Good evening.

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Should the government be giving

a company that's issued

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three profit warnings millions

and millions of pounds' worth

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of further contracts?

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The question sadly,

is a rhetorical one.

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Shortly after dawn this morning,

Carillion declared itself bust.

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It had racked up debts

of more than £900 million,

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and a pension deficit

of nearly £600 million.

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And even though the first

warning came in July,

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the second in September

and the third just two months ago,

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back in November, the government

continued to ply them with work.

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Is it enthusiasm for the public

private ideology, or incompetence -

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that the financial ill health

of such a huge company had

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been so badly misread?

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Carillion started out as the

construction arm of tarmac in 1999.

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Since then it has built a lot. GCHQ

in Cheltenham. High-speed one and

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Heathrow terminal five for example.

But it also provides services

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managing 200 operating theatres and

11,800 beds for the NHS for example.

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Or providing cleaning and meals for

hundreds of schools. In short

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Carillion is big. In 2016 had

recorded £5.2 billion in revenues, a

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third of which, 1.7 billion, came

from UK Government contracts. It is

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partly those government construction

contracts which got it into trouble

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with cost overruns on two hospitals

and £745 million Aberdeen bypass.

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Warning lights have been flashing

for a while, in July it had to

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announce an £850 million hit to its

contracts and suspend its dividends.

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By last Friday its share price

plummeted by 90%. After crisis talks

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with bankers and the Cabinet Office

over the weekend it collapsed this

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morning with £900 million in debt

and a £587 million deficit leaving

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43,000 employees globally and

hundreds of subcontractors wondering

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what will happen next.

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That's the overview.

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Our business editor Helen Thomas

has been taking a look

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at the challenges ahead.

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Trains and planes from beautiful art

to the beautiful game. Carillion had

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a hand in many parts of UK life.

Today the big battle was how to

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manage the fallout from its

collapse. Employees and

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subcontractors were asked to report

for work as normal today. The

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government wants to make sure

crucial services continue before

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contracts are passed to competitors

or taken in-house. Huge

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public-private construction projects

like the Aberdeen bypass or work on

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each is too will be taken over by

joint-venture partners. But some

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firms involved in the non-government

work expected take a hit.

It's a

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shame.

This boss had 30 people sent

home today including from work on

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the new Google building in King's

Cross.

We were turned away from four

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jobs, so those people had to go

home. They are trying to replace

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them on other jobs we have got. But

if you are in the government side

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you are OK because they will look

after you. For us personally we have

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payments due of £200,000 and that

will be in line with the company

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like Carillion.

The collapse will

also cause bigger questions about

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the government use of outsourcing.

Critics say it's another example of

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a private company taking its

profits, paying dividends in bonuses

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and then leaving the public sector

to clean up when things go wrong.

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The industry would disagree, they

say Carillion wasn't raking it in,

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in fact it was bidding to

aggressively. Some would argue that

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is because the government, its

biggest customer, has only cared

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about recent time, price. An

independent report last year for the

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business services Association called

it a race to the bottom. Our system

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where aggressive price based tenders

and the drive to cut costs in the

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time of austerity risked

compromising quality of service,

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workers terms and conditions,

corporate profits and potentially

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the political and commercial

sustainability of the market.

I

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think we see played out in front of

us that the construction business

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model is not working and we need to

address that. You look at the profit

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margins of the top ten contractors

it is about 0.8%. Those who are

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doing well would declare about 2%

margins and that is not sustainable

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for the level of risk they take and

we need to fix that model. It means

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more collaborative working, engaging

the supply chain earlier. Not having

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individual bespoke contract which

make things even more

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make things even more complicated.

It was the coalition government

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which expanded the use of

outsourcing and pushed hard to get

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taxpayers a better deal.

The point

of bringing in private companies to

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do something the government would

otherwise do is to take advantage of

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the fact that private companies are

often, not always, more efficient.

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And to try to transfer some of the

risk of those projects to those

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companies from government and the

kind of risk Bustinza costs being

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higher than you might have

anticipated and so on. I think the

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government has got better and better

at doing this and driving down the

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profit margins of those companies

for taxpayers benefit.

The collapse

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of Carillion is still likely to

focus minds on what could be done

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better.

More imagination in the

commissioning process. Better

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oversight of the companies as they

are doing their job. And better

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intelligence sharing amongst

Whitehall departments so that we

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learn from each other's mistakes.

It's kind of telling to me that at

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the last general election, I could

not see a single mention of

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outsourcing in any shape or form in

either of the party 's manifesto

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was.

Insiders told a sneak

outsourcing had in some places like

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probation become too niche. Overly

complicated contracts make it

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impossible to price work properly.

Others argue groups like Carillion

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are part of the problem. Not enough

companies bidding and the government

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reliant on a handful of big names.

This relies on the market for the

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services, outsourcing works well

when there is a market there.

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Government, several government in

sequence have allowed the emergence

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of giants conglomerates which do all

kinds of services, Carillion is one

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of those. There is not the

competition and ability to pass the

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services onto another company that

the whole thing relied on so to me

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that is where some of failure lies.

As the sun sets on Carillion's

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business it might be the outsourcing

market which needs refurbishment.

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A little earlier I spoke to Cabinet

Office Minister Oliver Dowden.

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I asked him how the government

let Carillion go bust.

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The government when it receives its

first profit warning from Carillion

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took contingency measures. The

principal measure we took was to

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ensure all new contracts were

joint-venture contracts. That means

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the risk is shared with other

companies and on those contracts

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they continue to be delivered.

So

you knew then in July you would need

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a contingency plan?

Of course if the

profit warning is given in respect

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of a company, people that contract

with it have to take appropriate

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measures. You would not expect us to

stop contracting with them as you

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are not expect any other company to

stop contracting with them but you

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would expect us to take precautions.

There were three profit warnings and

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as far as we understand eight new

contract awarded despite that.

It is

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important to understand the context.

Eight new contracts but they only

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account for 2% of our ongoing

contracts.

It doesn't matter, either

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you are looking at the

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you are looking at the financial

health of a company which does

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enormous work for our whole country

you are not, you are carrying on

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blindly. This was a company that try

to delay the payment to its

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contractors by three months instead

of 30 days. This was a company being

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short sold in 2013, a company that

HSBC divest it a million shares

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worth over the last 12 months. This

is a company whose corporate debt

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was downgraded to junk, how many

more signs did you need?

The concern

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for taxpayers in respect of this was

with the company deliver on the

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contracts? Reconstructed them as

joint ventures and they have

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continued to deliver. The taxpayer

has only paid out on what they have

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delivered on, there has not been a

loss to the taxpayer as the result

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of structuring those joint...

There

has been no extra cost to taxpayers,

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are you sure?

There is a cost in

expect of the appointment of the

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official receiver, but all the

contracts...

All of these delays

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will cost the taxpayer more, right?

Anything increased and having to

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bring in other contractors will cost

the taxpayer more so don't say there

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is no extra cost to taxpayers.

The

additional cost has been in respect

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of the appointment of the official

receiver. If you point an official

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receiver there is a cost associated

with that.

If you remove competition

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from the sector and allow the same

firms to charge more for the

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contract how is that a good deal?

It's important we have more

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competition and that is what we have

sought to do. When the government

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came to power in 2010 we set a

target of 25% of all government

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contracts being awarded to small and

medium-sized enterprises. We set

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another target for this government,

we are encouraging more small and

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medium-sized enterprises to bid for

these contracts...

Why would they go

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for it when they see you supporting

a company like Carillion which is

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clearly about to go bust?

Those

contracts have been agreed and they

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have been delivered upon but there

are a huge number of other PFI

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contracts going on quite well at the

moment. We have over £60 billion

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worth of contracts clearly there is

an issue with Carillion but the

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evidence we have seen today is that

the impact on the delivery of public

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services has been minimal.

Stand

back and tell me in the clear light

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of day it made sense to carry on

giving Carillion almost £2 billion

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more of contracts when it was in

such bad health?

As I said those

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contracts first of all only

accounted for 2% of the overall

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contract in relation to Carillion

and in respect of those contracts...

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It was still £2 billion.

They have

been delivered upon, taxpayers

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received services in respect to

them. And majority are structured as

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joint ventures so the other

joint-venture parties are stepping

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up to the plate and continuing to

deliver.

There is a concern that you

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are so wedded to the ideology of

using the private sector it cannot

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be seen to be failing, it's just not

allowed.

I don't think this is a

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question of ideology.

It's either

ideology or incompetence.

Third of

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these contracts were awarded under

the last Labour government, a third

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under the coalition and the third

under this government. They have

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been proven to the liver

successfully. Over £60 billion worth

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of contracts agreed. If you look at

the picture as we speak now those

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services continued to be delivered.

There has not been a disruption to

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the users of those public services.

The public takes the risk and the

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private companies take all the

profits. That is how this is

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perceived.

It's hard to say that the

private company has not taken the

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cost, those people who have bought

shares in Carillion are unlikely to

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receive the money back in respect of

them.

20,000 people worrying about

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their job of the first CEO is still

receiving a salary and will continue

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to do so until October.

You raise

two important points, in respect of

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people being worried about their

jobs this is a regrettable situation

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but those people working in respect

of the public sector can be assured

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we will continue to pay out on those

contracts. They should carry on

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going to work as normal. In respect

of your concerns about the payments

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which I been made to the person in

question...

For workers to hear they

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should carry on going to a job and

they look at Richard house, former

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CEO still receiving a

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CEO still receiving a salary and

will do so until October, is that

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fair?

There are serious questions to

be answered. But that has to be done

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by the official receiver. They are

looking into this and I don't want

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to prejudice those independent

enquiries by the official receiver

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into exactly the sort of points.

Minister I asked you a question, is

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it fair, from where you are sitting,

is it fair that the CEO who fail to

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turn the company into something that

can provide jobs and services is

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still getting paid a salary until

October?

Of course it is not fair

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and of course I understand people's

concerns over the rest but it is a

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matter which has to be considered by

the process for doing it and it's

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not helpful to prejudge it.

Oliver

Dowden, thank you.

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Nick Watt our political

editor is here.

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What do you take away from today?

We

have rare agreement among senior

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Labour and Conservative people that

this may well be a defining moment

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for this country. You were playing

earlier that clip from Jeremy

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Corbyn, saying this is a watershed

moment and we should end up -- end

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rip-off private desires is in. I was

speaking to one senior Tory thinker

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who said this is really bad for us,

the Conservative Party, he said. He

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said it plays into the metanarrative

that we are Tories are about

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protecting our private sector

friends come even though, is this

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person said, most of this process

started under Tony Blair.

So who do

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you think is under pressure tonight

actually?

Their lot of questions

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about Chris Grayling, because he has

Transport Secretary approved and HS2

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contract for a Correlli Consortium

just after had issued that -- eight

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Carillion Consortium. The Transport

Secretary is like the cavity of the

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cat, he always escapes, how longer

can this go on. Important to say

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Chris Grayling's department so that

was a three strong consortium and

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the other parties in that contract

will cover any cost overruns or any

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delay. But real pressure in the

Treasury. They are taking a very

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deep breath tonight, because as the

government says, this is not a

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bailout of the company, but it is a

lifeline to those areas where there

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are public contracts from Karelian,

and that, the Treasury are saying,

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will cost them a lot of money --

from Carillion.

0:16:490:16:52

Labour MP Stella Creasy has long

campaigned against how

0:16:520:16:55

the government awards

its large contracts.

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She is with us now. Nice to see you.

Your leader Jeremy Corbyn, we played

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the clip at the beginning, called

this a watershed moment, but the

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outsource of first dogma may now be

over. Do you think it is a moment

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when everything changes?

I hope so,

I have been particularly concerned

0:17:120:17:16

about private finance contracts for

many years because I had seen the

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impact first and in my local

hospital at whips cross. I call them

0:17:200:17:24

the legal loan sharks of the public

sector. It is an incredibly

0:17:240:17:27

expensive way to borrow. We were

told the reasons for using these

0:17:270:17:34

companies is that you would transfer

the risks that might come from

0:17:340:17:37

Public Company is to the private

sector. What the Carillion issue

0:17:370:17:41

does is it blows apart that myth.

But it doesn't clear up what happens

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next, does it? The government

doesn't have the expertise to manage

0:17:480:17:51

these projects, the construction

knowledge. They are not really going

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to disentangle themselves from these

companies, right?

No, and it was

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very noticeable in the house that

when the minister was pressed

0:18:000:18:04

particularly about PFI contracts,

and committing not to give a penny

0:18:040:18:07

more to these companies and try to

give these services back in house

0:18:070:18:11

committee can give an answer,

because they don't know. You look at

0:18:110:18:14

these contracts, there is as much

power for the banks and the lenders

0:18:140:18:17

as there is for the public sector in

it. Outsourcing has gone up 125%

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under this government and it is very

clear that government doesn't have

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the skills and the expertise to

manage that volume of private

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contracts and other taxpayer will

pay the price.

So you wouldn't want

0:18:280:18:34

to see Jeremy Corbyn, where

everything became with an estate

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remit?

We have to look at these

contracts because a lot of the

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clauses would mean it would cost a

hell of a lot of money to bring them

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in-house. That is why I have been

calling for a windfall tax on the

0:18:460:18:49

PFI companies. It has been clear

they have benefited from corporation

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tax being reduced. There is a very

strong case for the public sector in

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try to get some value for money out

of these contracts to introduce a

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windfall tax, and to get these

companies go there only a few of

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them around doing it, around the

table at the Treasury. Why I don't

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understand is why the Treasury has

not done any of this thinking?

It is

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not as if a windfall tax would have

made Carillion work any better, the

0:19:140:19:20

last thing that company needed was

an extra tax, right?

But it would

0:19:200:19:24

have made Carillion think about how

it manages its public contracts. I

0:19:240:19:27

am struck by the fact that in June

last year the NHS must have known

0:19:270:19:32

that there was in difficulty with

the Royal Liverpool hospital, get in

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July we saw the Department for

Transport giving them a whole series

0:19:350:19:38

of contracts of they issued a profit

warning. One arm of government is

0:19:380:19:43

not talking to the other or we are

giving these companies contracts

0:19:430:19:47

because they cannot afford to fail.

What makes you think that having the

0:19:470:19:51

whole project under that government

umbrella would be any more

0:19:510:19:56

successful then?

The first thing you

have to do is develop a Domesday

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book, and some people have talked

about this, we know what it is we

0:20:000:20:04

owe and to whom, because the

Treasury doesn't even hold that

0:20:040:20:07

information century, Sarita Devi

know how much we are in hock with.

0:20:070:20:10

The government wants to tell you PFI

has

0:20:100:20:16

has delivered £750 billion worth of

investment but editors at a £200

0:20:170:20:19

billion cost.

0:20:190:20:22

The keeper coming in.

0:20:220:20:25

Ten years ago it was fat.

0:20:250:20:26

Now public health

enemy one is sugar.

0:20:260:20:28

This year marks the introduction

of the sugar tax -

0:20:280:20:31

we've already seen some

of the naming and shaming

0:20:310:20:33

of companies that aren't prepared

to reduce sugar content.

0:20:330:20:35

This programme has been looking

into whether companies are adhering

0:20:350:20:37

to the new rules of online sugar

advertising that emerged six months

0:20:370:20:40

ago - and our enquiries have been

changing corporate policy,

0:20:400:20:43

as James Clayton reports.

0:20:430:20:50

About 50% of all the sugar consumed

in the UK comes from this,

0:20:590:21:04

British sugar beans,

and for factories like this

0:21:040:21:07

one behind me, well,

business is booming.

0:21:070:21:11

But the government is trying

to make us eat less sugar.

0:21:110:21:14

In April this year, the sugar tax

will come into force,

0:21:140:21:16

Public Health England will name

the companies that have

0:21:160:21:19

and haven't reduced their sugar

and fat content in March,

0:21:190:21:21

and strict new rules

around advertising to

0:21:210:21:23

children came in last year.

0:21:230:21:28

But the reaction by companies

to these measures has

0:21:280:21:30

been, well, varied.

0:21:300:21:32

Hurry, hurry, it's the Crazy Crocos!

0:21:320:21:36

Back in the day, advertising rules

were a lot more relaxed.

0:21:360:21:42

Ten years ago, a review found that

80% of all food advertising

0:21:420:21:45

expenditure in children's airtime

on terrestrial channels was for

0:21:450:21:48

foods high in salt, sugar or fat.

0:21:480:21:53

Well, everybody knows,

Frosties taste great!

0:21:530:21:56

In 2008, rules were brought

in to stop these kind of adverts

0:22:000:22:03

being shown on children's TV,

rules that were extended

0:22:030:22:05

to cover online advertising

and material six months ago.

0:22:050:22:10

The Milky Bars are on me!

0:22:100:22:13

What does that mean?

0:22:140:22:15

Well, here is the Chief Executive of

the Advertising Standards Authority.

0:22:150:22:19

So just be clear, if you are

advertising to children,

0:22:190:22:24

and you're advertising for sweets

or junk food, you shouldn't be

0:22:240:22:31

allowed to advertise

to those children?

0:22:310:22:32

That's right, that's right,

and children are defined

0:22:320:22:34

as anyone who's under 16,

so it's children, and actually it's

0:22:340:22:36

young people, as well.

0:22:360:22:40

But Newsnight has been given

examples of online material that

0:22:400:22:42

campaigners believe push those rules

to the limit.

0:22:420:22:46

The Kinder brand makes chocolate

products aimed at children,

0:22:460:22:49

and their website, Magic Kinder,

has a series of games

0:22:490:22:51

also aimed at children.

0:22:510:22:55

Some have referred to these kinds

of games as adver-games,

0:22:550:22:57

and questioned whether they should

be allowed at all.

0:22:570:23:04

So what we've got here

is the Magic Kinder website,

0:23:050:23:09

so "magic" is the dominant word,

but "Kinder" is there

0:23:090:23:12

as well, and you can

see their games, targeting 3+, 5+.

0:23:120:23:17

Now you can't see very

strong Kinder advertising,

0:23:170:23:20

but once you start getting

into the games, and into

0:23:200:23:23

the stories, you can see

very close association,

0:23:230:23:27

with the toys that children receive

when they get Kinder Eggs.

0:23:270:23:30

I think they're not upholding

the spirit of the rules.

0:23:300:23:32

It seems to me that many of them

are playing around in the grey areas

0:23:320:23:35

of what is targeting

adults or children.

0:23:350:23:38

Adver-games are caught

by exactly the same ban

0:23:380:23:41

on advertising to children,

when it comes to products that

0:23:410:23:43

are high in fat, salt and sugar,

as any other form of advertising is,

0:23:430:23:47

so you should not be,

if you are a company with a brand

0:23:470:23:50

that is high in fat,

salt or sugar, you should not be

0:23:500:23:53

producing an adver-game for that

brand that targets children,

0:23:530:23:55

that appeals to children.

0:23:550:24:01

The big question here, then,

is does this constitute

0:24:010:24:03

an adver-game at all,

or are they simply fun

0:24:030:24:05

video games for kids?

0:24:050:24:06

In a statement to

Newsnight, Kinder said...

0:24:060:24:09

No products are visible,

but the toys in them are.

0:24:220:24:26

Since Newsnight told Kinder

we were doing the story,

0:24:260:24:29

the company has said it will now

place an age restriction

0:24:290:24:32

on the games.

0:24:320:24:33

The Advertising Standards Authority

is looking into the websites.

0:24:330:24:41

There are other areas, too,

that are difficult to police.

0:24:420:24:45

Take the Chewits Facebook page.

0:24:450:24:48

You have to be over 13

to have a Facebook account,

0:24:480:24:51

and here Chewits aren't paying

for advertising, they're just

0:24:510:24:53

updating their home page,

but what about posts like this one?

0:24:530:24:59

The important thing here is to make

sure if you are an advertiser

0:25:040:25:07

and you are using Facebook,

as a communicating channel

0:25:070:25:10

to get through to people,

is to make sure that you are not

0:25:100:25:16

you are not targeting under-16s

with your advertising

0:25:160:25:18

for your products that are high

in fat, salt or sugar.

0:25:180:25:21

And of course also to make sure that

you are complying with the tougher

0:25:210:25:24

content rules for ads,

even assuming you're not doing that.

0:25:240:25:27

Chewits told Newsnight that the vast

majority of people interacting

0:25:270:25:29

with the Chewits page are over 16.

0:25:290:25:34

There's not much doubt that

advertising to children works.

0:25:340:25:37

A YouGov poll, commissioned

by Cancer Research UK,

0:25:370:25:39

and given to Newsnight,

found that 11-to-19-year-olds

0:25:390:25:42

with high ad exposure were almost

three times more likely to have

0:25:420:25:45

diets high in salt, sugar and fats.

0:25:450:25:49

And where did the survey

find that those young

0:25:490:25:51

people watched those ads?

0:25:510:25:53

Well, on daytime TV,

sports channels, reality TV,

0:25:530:25:57

and, most commonly,

on entertainment shows.

0:25:570:26:03

So if you look at viewing figures

of the programmes most

0:26:030:26:10

popular with children,

it is that Saturday night

0:26:100:26:12

family viewing slot.

0:26:120:26:13

Those advertising breaks

are absolutely crammed full

0:26:130:26:16

of junk food adverts,

so we found in a study

0:26:160:26:19

where we looked at adverts around

The Voice, and Hollyoaks

0:26:190:26:21

and The Simpsons, that of the food

and drink in the adverts,

0:26:210:26:24

60% of them were for junk food.

0:26:240:26:26

So what we would like to see

is a nine o'clock watershed

0:26:260:26:29

on junk food marketing.

0:26:290:26:30

But for some, this

is a step too far.

0:26:300:26:32

You know, a lot of these

foods appeal to adults,

0:26:320:26:34

and these companies have a right

to advertise their foods to adults.

0:26:340:26:37

These programmes, the Saturday night

programmes, are watched

0:26:370:26:39

by massive adult audiences,

and I think it is perfectly fair

0:26:390:26:42

that they should be allowed

to advertise to them.

0:26:420:26:45

It is not just family shows that

are in the cross hairs

0:26:480:26:51

of sugar campaigners.

0:26:510:26:53

The rules on advertising to children

on TV haven't changed for ten years,

0:26:530:26:56

and some believe those rules

should be tightened.

0:26:560:27:01

Coco Pops is not allowed to be

advertised on children's TV,

0:27:010:27:03

but Coco Pops Granola,

a less sugary variant

0:27:030:27:05

of Coco Pops, can be.

0:27:050:27:09

This kind of falls into a grey area,

because, on one hand,

0:27:090:27:18

Kellogg's have created a product,

and reformulated a product,

0:27:180:27:20

which reduced the amount of sugar

so that it is OK to be advertised

0:27:200:27:24

on kids' TV, and we

want to encourage big

0:27:240:27:26

corporations like Kellogg's

to reformulate their products.

0:27:260:27:27

On the other hand, it allows them

to get the Coco Pops brand

0:27:270:27:31

in front of children,

on children's TV, and Coco Pops

0:27:310:27:33

are one of the unhealthiest

breakfast cereals on the market.

0:27:330:27:37

Hey, want to try my

new Coco Pops porridge?

0:27:370:27:39

But how do we heat up the milk?

0:27:390:27:42

Kellogg's is changing

its cereals, though.

0:27:420:27:44

Coco Pops will see a 40%

reduction in sugar this year,

0:27:440:27:47

and the company says

it is completely appropriate

0:27:470:27:49

for Coco Pops Granola

to advertise in kids' airtime.

0:27:490:27:55

Half the sugar us kids eat

and drink each year comes

0:27:550:27:58

from snacks and sugary drinks.

0:27:580:28:00

Public Health England

will publish its updated nutrient

0:28:000:28:03

profile later this year,

and they're expected

0:28:030:28:04

to tighten rules on sugar.

0:28:040:28:06

That would mean products

like Coco Pops Granola,

0:28:060:28:08

in its current formula,

may not be able to advertise

0:28:080:28:11

in kids' media in the future.

0:28:110:28:17

You'll be hearing a lot more

about sugar this year,

0:28:170:28:19

and it's not just in advertising.

0:28:190:28:21

Unsurprisingly, industry

doesn't like the sugar tax

0:28:210:28:22

or stricter advertising rules.

0:28:220:28:25

The Food and Drink Federation

prefers a voluntary

0:28:260:28:28

sugar reduction target.

0:28:280:28:32

It sounds like a lot

of where you guys are is, actually,

0:28:320:28:35

you quite like the status quo,

and you don't want anything

0:28:350:28:37

to change, is that fair?

0:28:370:28:39

I would love the status quo,

but it is not what we have got,

0:28:390:28:42

what we have got is a world

of constant change.

0:28:420:28:44

I mean, we have had endless

new initiatives on public health

0:28:440:28:47

the last few years...

0:28:470:28:48

So you want nothing to change?

0:28:480:28:50

What I want is a little bit

of stability to complete the work

0:28:500:28:53

that we are currently on...

0:28:530:28:54

So it's just, "trust

us, we'll do it"?

0:28:540:28:56

Well, the government set

us a challenge, it's

0:28:560:28:58

given us a deadline,

it said if we don't hit that,

0:28:580:29:00

it will consider doing more.

0:29:000:29:02

That's a perfectly reasonable

position for government to take.

0:29:020:29:04

So let's see where we get

to in 2020 before we start

0:29:040:29:07

doing other new things.

0:29:070:29:08

But the lesson from advertising

is clear: companies are reluctant

0:29:080:29:10

to change until they are told

to do so.

0:29:100:29:13

Unless the food and drink industry

shows progress on reducing sugar,

0:29:130:29:15

the government may well look

to get even tougher.

0:29:150:29:23

Mario Testino and Bruce Weber

are the latest names to be shunned

0:29:260:29:29

by fashion magazines

after allegations of sexual abuse.

0:29:290:29:32

They both deny the claims but

0:29:320:29:34

Conde Naste publications -

including Vogue - has said it

0:29:340:29:36

will not be working with them

in the foreseeable future.

0:29:360:29:38

Once again, it shines a spotlight

on an industry that has

0:29:380:29:41

often seemed closed.

0:29:410:29:43

It raises a more visceral

and fundamental question,

0:29:430:29:45

how does the fashion industry

operate and how much protection

0:29:450:29:47

is there for those who work in it?

0:29:470:29:51

I'm joined by Caryn Franklin -

Broadcaster, fashion commentator

0:29:510:29:53

and former fashion magazine editor.

0:29:530:30:00

Nice to have you here. Does any of

this surprise you, any of the

0:30:000:30:05

allegations or the response to it so

far, allegations which are denied of

0:30:050:30:10

course.

Not of the latest names, I

have been writing about predatory

0:30:100:30:15

behaviour since 2013. A lot later

than some had been talking about it.

0:30:150:30:19

In the fashion industry

specifically?

Yes, by photographers.

0:30:190:30:27

I was receiving stories on social

networking from models who told me

0:30:270:30:30

there are stories and they named

photographers who are now being

0:30:300:30:34

talked about.

That was 2013, five

years ago. Why has this been such a

0:30:340:30:42

slow burn?

There is a real struggle

I think in the fashion industry,

0:30:420:30:47

recognition of high status

professionals overstepping

0:30:470:30:53

boundaries when there is getting the

shot that everybody thinks they

0:30:530:30:56

want. We have a culture that

hypersexual eyes is young people and

0:30:560:31:00

thinks nothing of it. Not all of us

agree with that sober is

0:31:000:31:06

countercultural conversation around

that. But campaigns, multi-billion

0:31:060:31:11

pound campaigns are often created

around that sort of arousal factor,

0:31:110:31:19

the excitement factor which involves

objectification of women and

0:31:190:31:24

increasingly young men.

Is at the

same set of circumstances that we've

0:31:240:31:28

seen in the movie industry,

vulnerable figure at the centre and

0:31:280:31:33

huge amounts of money and power on

the top or is it something even less

0:31:330:31:38

overt?

There is a similarity of

course but what you have got as an

0:31:380:31:44

extra imbalance is you have got a

very young, inexperienced model who

0:31:440:31:49

is not given a voice, who is

expected to be compliant and remain

0:31:490:31:53

silent and serve the shoot with

their body and do as they are told.

0:31:530:32:00

Monetarily you are in a very

precarious position as you don't

0:32:000:32:04

know when the next contract is

coming as a model.

A young male

0:32:040:32:08

model I spoke to said he suspected

his agent had sent him to the

0:32:080:32:13

photographer specifically to be

preyed upon, under the guise that he

0:32:130:32:19

was going for a test at his home.

Nothing was happening at the studio

0:32:190:32:23

but the photographer wanted to see

him and this could lead to a big

0:32:230:32:26

campaign. The conversation is on the

part of model agents that this could

0:32:260:32:31

be a big money earner not just for

you but for us.

So when you see

0:32:310:32:36

Conde Naste publications singly will

no longer take the work of Mario

0:32:360:32:43

Testino for example who has denied

these allegations, how long does

0:32:430:32:46

this last?

I don't know the answer

to that. What has changed is the

0:32:460:32:52

fashion industry is not riding the

crest of big budgets in the way it

0:32:520:32:58

was. All brands are looking to make

sure they can survive. The expansion

0:32:580:33:04

plans...

So this is about ethics at

all?

It's about the brand not being

0:33:040:33:09

damaged. I believe people dead

because the story was rife and being

0:33:090:33:16

passed around.

You believe important

figures in the industry, the heads

0:33:160:33:22

of magazines, editors, knew this was

going on?

There has been a lot of

0:33:220:33:28

conversation and generally people

felt powerless. It took independents

0:33:280:33:31

like me and others to be talking

about it but also to be ignored

0:33:310:33:35

because we don't have that kind of

power to action change.

You raised

0:33:350:33:43

it in 2013, how easy was it to name

names?

I raised the appalling

0:33:430:33:49

spectre of Terry Richardson who was

creating situations where young

0:33:490:33:53

women felt hugely coerced to behave

in a sexualised way. But he was also

0:33:530:34:00

documenting himself engaging in a

range of behaviours that were very

0:34:000:34:06

unprofessional. That, to a certain

extent, was deemed to be edgy and

0:34:060:34:13

out there and was supported despite

the fact that many young women were

0:34:130:34:17

saying they felt appalled and

unprotected when they walked into

0:34:170:34:22

the situation. This was a

conversation that took place over

0:34:220:34:28

quite a few years and I even

resorted to pressure rising art

0:34:280:34:32

directors not to work with Terry

Richardson. I would have one-on-one

0:34:320:34:39

conversations with them.

You

understand I have to say he has

0:34:390:34:42

denied all those allegations but

thank you very much for coming in,

0:34:420:34:45

Caryn Franklin.

0:34:450:34:48

The Irish President has tonight paid

tribute to The Cranberries

0:34:480:34:50

singer Dolores O'Riordan

following her death in London.

0:34:500:34:52

He called her the voice

of a generation for anyone who grew

0:34:520:34:55

up in Ireland in the 1990s,

and for all those who

0:34:550:34:57

loved her overseas.

0:34:570:34:59

# But I'm in so deep,

you know I'm such a fool for you,

0:34:590:35:07

# You've got me wrapped

around your finger,

0:35:070:35:12

# Do you have to let it linger?

0:35:120:35:15

# Do you have to, do you have to,

do you have do let it linger?#

0:35:150:35:20

The Cranberries sold 40 million

records worldwide and became best

0:35:200:35:23

known for their album,

No Need To Argue,

0:35:230:35:25

which went to number one

0:35:250:35:26

in Australia, France and Germany,

and number six in the United States.

0:35:260:35:33

Eoghan McDermott worked on the Irish

version of The Voice

0:35:330:35:35

with Dolores O'Riordan.

0:35:350:35:38

It is nice of you to join us, this

must have come as a huge shock and I

0:35:380:35:43

am wondering how you are thinking of

her tonight?

It is a shock first and

0:35:430:35:48

foremost. I think we covered a lot

on the radio show the news as it

0:35:480:35:54

broke and I think the overwhelming

sentiment from people coming in was

0:35:540:35:59

exactly that, shock because she was

so young and a mother and now the

0:35:590:36:03

focus is on the music and the

Cranberries and the legacy but she

0:36:030:36:06

is a mother of three children as

well. So, sorrow but also a lot of

0:36:060:36:12

people, particularly women reaching

out and seeing how amazing they

0:36:120:36:17

found Dolores, how great it was in

the 90s, pre-the Internet being so

0:36:170:36:21

dominant just to have a feisty and

frustrated angry and intelligent,

0:36:210:36:27

flawed but brilliant header went to

so it reflects on the music and the

0:36:270:36:33

person simultaneously.

It was her

voice, known for their mix of rock

0:36:330:36:42

and folk but predominantly it was

that voice which resonated with the

0:36:420:36:49

public wasn't it?

Yeah, and again I

think the reflection today was on

0:36:490:36:53

the Cranberries and Dolores as they

voiced of the Cranberries, people

0:36:530:36:59

have paid tribute to the big songs

like Linger and Zombie, songs which

0:36:590:37:07

reached across political and

cultural lines and these days bands

0:37:070:37:11

like Cranberries would be played on

indie rock or alternative stations

0:37:110:37:14

but at the height of their powers

they were on the present. They also

0:37:140:37:18

broke America which is the holy

grail for any band which has English

0:37:180:37:25

as their first language.

An

extraordinary thing to be able to

0:37:250:37:29

look back on. You work with her at

the The Voice, tell us how you will

0:37:290:37:37

remember her, watching was like?

I

think when she was announced as a

0:37:370:37:41

coach on The Voice nobody could

believe it. Everyone was genuinely

0:37:410:37:46

shocked, we got to know her a

little. She admitted she had never

0:37:460:37:49

seen the show, the Irish or, any of

the shows anywhere in the world so

0:37:490:37:54

we asked why she did it and she said

my girl likes it and said I should

0:37:540:37:58

do it so I did it. The other

coaches, we had Sharon from the

0:37:580:38:04

chorus, other Irish acts who have

sold millions of records but when

0:38:040:38:11

Dolores was announced people were

flabbergasted, she had that legacy

0:38:110:38:15

and that weight. As a person very

low-key, very

0:38:150:38:22

low-key, very warm, an producible

the producer of the programme said

0:38:230:38:25

on the radio today but in the best

possible way. She took direction

0:38:250:38:28

from nobody and was a liability in

the warmest way.

A real coup for

0:38:280:38:35

them to get her. We often think of

the massive worldwide success and

0:38:350:38:39

the 40 million records but coming

back to her Irish identity was

0:38:390:38:44

absolutely crucial to her wasn't it?

Yeah, she was from Limerick which

0:38:440:38:50

very wrong way had a bad reputation

in the 90s which it has now

0:38:500:38:55

outgrown, it is a beautiful and

vibrant city. As well as being, it's

0:38:550:39:00

great to celebrate Hometown hero was

doing well but I think she really

0:39:000:39:03

lifted a city which had gotten an

unfair rap. Some of the songs from

0:39:030:39:09

the Cranberries will forever be

included in the pantheon of great

0:39:090:39:15

songs, their legacy forevermore is

sealed which makes it all the more

0:39:150:39:19

tragic because she was only 46 and

as people know was in London for a

0:39:190:39:25

recording session so there must have

been new music on the horizon. She

0:39:250:39:28

was back with the Cranberries and

she had a side project. There was a

0:39:280:39:32

lot more to come and it's just

really sad.

Thank you for talking to

0:39:320:39:38

us tonight, we really appreciate it.

0:39:380:39:41

Just before we go...

0:39:410:39:42

Nick's back - Nick,

a word on a momentous

0:39:420:39:44

day for Momentum -

Nick, tell us...

0:39:440:39:48

The founder of Momentum and

supporter of Tony Ben led a

0:39:480:39:54

landslide victory on to the National

Executive Committee of the Labour

0:39:540:39:56

Party will stop three of his

supporters are on that committee and

0:39:560:40:00

it's a historic day for the Labour

Party because they left for so long

0:40:000:40:04

written off as a marginal force now

effectively are in the majority on

0:40:040:40:09

the body.

Interesting story in The

Times tomorrow seeing the so-called

0:40:090:40:14

centrist Labour MPs, if you can go

ahead and deselect some of these MPs

0:40:140:40:19

then they would resign the Labour

whip and set as their own bloc in

0:40:190:40:22

parliament but we will see. They

have made these threats in the past,

0:40:220:40:26

they are not in the ascendancy in

the Labour Party so we will see how

0:40:260:40:29

it goes.

Thank you.

0:40:290:40:32

That's it for today,

which is of course Blue Monday,

0:40:320:40:34

the saddest day of the year.

0:40:340:40:35

The mathematics behind

the concept was created in 2005

0:40:350:40:38

by a psychologist called

Cliff Arnall, after a travel company

0:40:380:40:40

commissioned him to prove that

everyone should cheer up

0:40:400:40:42

by booking their summer

holidays round about now.

0:40:420:40:44

Cliff proved it all a bit too

convincingly, and a pseudo

0:40:440:40:47

science legend was born.

0:40:470:40:48

We got in touch with him today

to see what he now thought

0:40:480:40:51

about his discovery and he told us -

quote - "Don't believe

0:40:510:40:54

a word of it."

0:40:540:40:55

But of course we do.

0:40:550:40:56

And so we leave you with this -

Cliff Arnall's immortal

0:40:560:40:59

Blue Monday proof equation.

0:40:590:41:00

Goodnight.

0:41:000:41:06

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