17/01/2018 Newsnight


17/01/2018

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Dinner in the Eiffel

Tower for Trump.

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A cavalry horse for the Chinese.

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Now, he's bringing us

an enormous tapestry.

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Should we beware French

presidents bearing gifts?

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Macron's coming to town -

but what does he want back?

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We ask the Foreign Office, where

next for Anglo-French relationship?

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He will be very tough in defending

French interests.

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We ask the Foreign Office, where

next for Anglo-French relationship?

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Also tonight, in the wake

of the Carillion collapse,

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we ask Labour's shadow business

secretary whether the government

0:00:400:00:42

should run outsourced

services instead.

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I think, well, what we need

to do is examine the most

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cost-effective way for the UK

taxpayer, and if...

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But you'd consider it?

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If it's cheaper, yes.

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If it's cheaper, and it's

more secure to deliver

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those services in-house,

then that is what should happen.

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And we hear from two of the many

people who say the predatory Team

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USA gymnastics doctor

Larry Nassar assaulted them.

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Good evening.

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The loan of the Bayeaux tapestry -

a triumphal celebration of England's

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defeat at the hands of a European

army - may strike some

0:01:190:01:21

as rich in symbolism.

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But the gesture by Emmanuel

Macron has been hailed

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as diplomatic brilliance.

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France's president

arrives here tomorrow.

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He will discuss defence

and security with the PM.

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But behind the military

welcome at Sandhurst,

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and plans to make Britain pay more

for towards the port of Calais,

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there may also be a slight sense

of disquiet at the ease

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with which Macron wields his power.

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"We need to develop a kind

of political heroism.

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We need to be amenable again

to creating grand narratives,"

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he recently told a German newspaper.

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Has he become the de

facto leader of Europe?

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And should Britain be worried

he holds all the negotiating cards

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when discussions inevitably

turn to Brexit?

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Here's our political

editor, Nick Watt,

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on the latest Norman conquest.

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Ancient military figures appear

to be morphing into diplomats.

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A decade ago, China's Terracotta

Army arrived in London

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to herald a new era in Sino-British

relations, and now the Bayeux

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Tapestry is due to

land on our shores.

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It may be a bloody and gruesome

depiction of an English defeat,

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but the ever canny Emmanuel Macron

calculates that our affection

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for the medieval masterpiece

will allow it to serve as a powerful

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signal of warm

relations after Brexit.

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I remember going to see

the Bayeux Tapestry.

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I think I was about six,

with my mother, and being completely

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entranced by the fact that women had

sat and stitched this extraordinary

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story which goes all the way

round a room, so that

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long-standing relationship,

not always friendly,

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that we've had with the French,

but a long-standing,

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and absolutely firm relationship

with the French is one that he's

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making a bond which has

never been done before,

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by offering this extraordinary piece

of work and this story that

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shares our heritage.

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I think it's one of those

beautiful relationships

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which does go through ups

and downs, admittedly.

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Over the past 1,000 years

since the Bayeux Tapestry,

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but which is still, 1,000 years

later, incredibly strong,

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and which is a vector and a product

for cooperation on issues

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of tremendous importance,

which impact both our countries.

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If you want to find a symbol

of the entente cordiale,

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you can perhaps do no better

than visit this statue

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of Charles de Gaulle,

the leader of the free French,

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who was given refuge in London

during the Second World War.

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But de Gaulle personally embodies

the perennially scratchy nature

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of Anglo-French relations.

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In 1943, Winston Churchill described

him as "vain and malignant",

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and two decades later,

he vetoed Britain's

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application to join the EEC.

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The legacy of de Gaulle,

always to put French interests

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first, even at the cost of ruffling

feathers, is upheld by today's

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occupant of the Elysee Palace.

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Behind tomorrow's friendly

and cost-free gesture lie some raw

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French calculations about how

they can use Brexit

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to their advantage.

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When it comes to French interests,

economic interests,

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in the Brexit decisions,

he will be hard-headed, and he will

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push for a tough outcome.

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I don't think he wants

to have a collapse and a disaster.

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I think he wants an agreement,

but yeah, he will be very tough,

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single-minded in defending

French interests.

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Yeah, they will say,

you can't have your cake and eat it.

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If you're in the single market

or aligning yourself

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with the single market, fine.

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If you're not, you can't cherry pick

that you want to be in this bit

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and out of that bit.

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And yes, of course, where there's

an opportunity of draining jobs

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away from the UK into France,

they will be taking it.

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And that gap left by Britain,

and the lack of leadership

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in Berlin, has provided

President Macron with a space

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to shape his vision for the future

of Europe, which he's been

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developing for years.

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There was originally a realisation

that Europe in the last ten to 15

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years hasn't progressed fast enough

on a certain number of issues,

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and that we needed a new force

for proposals, and that was what his

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speech at La Sorbonne,

which outlined a whole

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host of potential areas

where we could integrate more,

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where we could have more cooperation

between European member states,

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and more integration

at European level.

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I think, at the moment,

on the European scene,

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President Macron is the dominant

personality, and he is out there,

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as we've seen, taking initiatives,

trying to help in international

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crises, cutting a dash on the world

stage, and he is biding his time,

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waiting for there to be

a German Chancellor

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that he can got to work

with on building Europe.

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Emmanuel Macron will signal tomorrow

that France will always

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have a special place for Britain

in its affections.

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But, as the UK walks away

from the EU, France is already

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looking to new horizons.

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So, how do we deal with Macron?

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Joining me now is Foreign Office

minister Harriet Baldwin.

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Very nice of you to come in. The

tapestry is lovely but you heard

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that from Peter Ricketts - he is

hard-headed and he wants to drain

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jobs away from London, does that

worry you?

Well, it is a wonderful

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gesture in terms of this tapestry

which of course was stitched in

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Canterbury. So, it is good to be

wonderful having it back in the UK

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and I would like to thank the

president for that. But tomorrow's

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summit will be very much about our

mutual interests, our shared project

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in terms of not only prosperity

within our respective economies but

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of course, there will be a lot in

the summit tomorrow about...

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Interests in terms

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Interests in terms of security and

in terms of the atrocities that we

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have both suffered...

But he is the

man who is looking like the de facto

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leader in Europe right now

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man who is looking like the de facto

leader in Europe right now, he's

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going to be hard-headed about this.

Lets look at these things. He is due

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Britain to take in more refugee

migrants - are we going to do that?

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Theresa May is also a really strong

leader in Europe, and she has got a

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very, very clear outline in terms of

what she wants to achieve. Do you

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think that...?

The trading

relationship... In terms of the

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migrant numbers, the refugee

numbers, do you think she's going to

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say yes, we will take in more?

I

think she will point to the very

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strong track record that we have in

terms of taking in migrants.

But he

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wants more, right?

I do not want to

pre-empt any of the discussions

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which may take place tomorrow. The

Home Secretary will be meeting with

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her counterpart tomorrow.

What about

him asking for more money, we pay

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for security at the border but we do

not pay any more financial

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contribution - will we now be doing

that at Calais, is it a fair thing

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for the French to ask?

Again I don't

want to speculate in terms of some

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of the announcements which may come

out tomorrow, because clearly we

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work closely with the French in

terms of the border and we have had

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a long-standing co-operation with

them on those issues, particularly

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in Calais. It is all about those

shared mutual interests that we have

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with France, in terms of not only

our mutual border but also, of

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course, the southern area that we

share strong interests in that area

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and there will be other

announcements tomorrow pointing to

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that.

If you accept the premise that

France will be the likely

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beneficiary of any jobs lost in the

City of London, with Brexit, then is

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it your inclination to say we have

to work on far closer alignment to

0:09:110:09:16

the single market to stop those jobs

training away, do you see how

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important that could be to stop

France taking the premier position?

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I do not accept the Palace of your

question.

As an ambassador do you

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think he is wrong when he thinks

Macron is trying to drain the jobs

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from London?

I think he makes a good

point about what Macron has already

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publicly said already. I don't think

there is anything new in terms of

0:09:410:09:45

some of those things but of course

we have such strong shared

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interests, we have a very strong

interest in a successful financial

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sector, not only in France but of

course the UK is the global hub for

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so much of the world's finance.

That's going to continue, and of

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course, it is in Europe's interests

for us to have a strong financial

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and global hub here.

Do you think we

should just say we are prepared to

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accept job losses, this is going to

be a brand-new start for the country

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with Brexit, and if it takes a few

job losses, we will find others, we

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won't be so dependent on the

financial sector?

Well, I am going

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to talk about how important that

sector is, not only to the UK but

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also to the world, and to Europe.

And so there's going to be a

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negotiation to be had about how

important that is to our respective

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economies, and the summit tomorrow

will be very much focused on the

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mutual interests that we have. We

have a very large population of

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French citizens here in the UK and a

lot of UK citizens in France, and

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there will be a series of

announcements focused on our shared

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interests.

The perception is that

Macron seems to handle his diplomacy

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with such ease. He pulled off the

Trump visit with elegance whilst

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disagreeing with virtually

everything he stands for. In

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contrast we leap in the, we hold

hands, we stumble around a bit,

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whether there is going to be a state

visit or no visit at all, we look

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like we're tearing our hair out on

this one?

Think we're being

0:11:200:11:23

incredibly negative and pessimistic

and BBC like there, Emily! The first

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person to get over to meet Mr Trump

after he was elected was the British

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Prime Minister Annable you don't

think we're in a mess with the state

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visit? I think she's had some

fantastic state visits.

With

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President Trump?

As you know we have

invited him to return, and those are

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ongoing.

I don't want to be BBC

like, I'm just trying to work out

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whether we are bargaining President

Trump now, whether that state visit

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that we heard about is still

extended by a deal in the government

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would say this is a wonderful thing

to be doing now whether there has

0:12:010:12:04

been a of mind, that sense of

bumbling amount because we don't

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really know any more?

0 in the Prime

Minister made it very clear today at

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PMQs that that invitation has been

offered, and tomorrow's summit is

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the one with president Macron, and

we will be really focusing on so

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much that we do together with the

French, and you've already

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highlighted the importance of the

extensive trading that we do in

0:12:250:12:31

terms of financial services between

the two countries, but just in terms

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of exports alone, we are talking

about a £70 billion relationship.

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This is the third biggest trading

relationship that we have. And so

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it's an incredibly important

relationship, one which both

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premiers will want to show that we

are taking forward and tomorrow's

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summit will have some very

substantive announcements and the

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communique will show the strength of

that bilateral relationship.

Thank

0:12:530:12:57

you very much for coming in.

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Jeremy Corbyn accused the government

of being deeply negligent over

0:13:030:13:09

the collapse of Carillion

today in the Commons.

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Unfortunately for Labour,

the question he appeared to be

0:13:110:13:13

asking never quite came,

allowing the PM a fairly

0:13:130:13:15

easy ride in what should

have been a tough week.

0:13:150:13:18

Mr Speaker - it looks

like the government was handing

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Carillion public contracts either

to keep the company afloat,

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which clearly hasn't worked,

or it was just deeply negligent

0:13:220:13:24

of the crisis that was

coming down the line.

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Which?

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Which?

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Which is it?

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Mr Speaker, I'm very happy to answer

questions when the right

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honourable gentlemen

asks one - he didn't.

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Helen Thomas, our business

editor, is with me.

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Moving away from the cut

and thrust of PMQs, Helen,

0:13:440:13:47

what else did we learn

about Carillion today?

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There was some mixed news today from

the insolvency service. On the good

0:13:540:13:58

side, they said that 90% of

Carillion's private sector services

0:13:580:14:05

customers want to carry on receiving

those services, they are prepared to

0:14:050:14:08

fund them, and that means people

stay in jobs. On the bad side, the

0:14:080:14:11

construction business public and

private is basically closed. They

0:14:110:14:17

have said work is paused and there

is no sense of how long that paws

0:14:170:14:21

will last. People I have spoken to

in the construction industry are

0:14:210:14:25

very worried about that. One of news

- they have said any severance

0:14:250:14:30

payments going to directors of

Carillion will have stopped as of

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Monday. There was this concerned

that directors might still be

0:14:350:14:39

receiving big pay-outs. But there

has been another question on pay,

0:14:390:14:42

which is about the ability to claw

back past bonuses paid. Now, a good

0:14:420:14:48

chunk of those past bonuses would

have been paired in shares which are

0:14:480:14:52

now worth precisely nothing. But

what I have heard today is that

0:14:520:14:55

nobody is too confident that they

will be able to claw back any of

0:14:550:14:59

those past bonus payments.

So what

is your sense of where things go

0:14:590:15:02

from here?

0:15:020:15:07

We understand that the National

Audit Office is releasing a report

0:15:080:15:13

on PFI. These are big,

infrastructure, construction

0:15:130:15:19

projects built by private companies,

and those private companies take an

0:15:190:15:24

annual payment over 25 or 30 year

contracts, and are also providing

0:15:240:15:30

cleaning and maintenance contracts

and so one. Labour has said they

0:15:300:15:33

will take all of those PFI contracts

back in-house. You could assume that

0:15:330:15:39

report would get some attention. A

few figures that may demonstrate the

0:15:390:15:44

scale of this. 700 of these projects

are operating. They have a capital

0:15:440:15:51

value of £60 billion, roughly what

they were built for. The total

0:15:510:15:55

annual

0:15:550:16:02

annual charges on those projects is

about £10 billion, and if there were

0:16:020:16:04

no new deals from today, the future

payments would stretch until the 20

0:16:040:16:08

40s and total around £200 billion.

Thank you.

0:16:080:16:12

But what would Labour do?

0:16:120:16:13

Earlier, I spoke to the shadow

business spokeswoman

0:16:130:16:15

Rebecca Long-Bailey,

and I began by asking her to now

0:16:150:16:18

clarify Labour's position

on public-private partnerships.

0:16:180:16:19

Of course, you can't rule out

the use of the private sector.

0:16:190:16:22

They have their strengths,

and they have certain

0:16:220:16:24

characteristics that we would need

to utilise, but the question

0:16:240:16:26

has to be, is this cost

effective for the tax payer?

0:16:260:16:29

Would it be cheaper to deliver

those services in-house?

0:16:290:16:32

And is the risk greater

by contracting out a private company

0:16:320:16:36

that could potentially fail,

or is it better to have them

0:16:360:16:39

in-house with a body that's

directly accountable

0:16:390:16:41

to the people of Britain?

0:16:410:16:44

But essentially there's not

a huge difference now

0:16:440:16:47

between you and what the government

is doing anyway.

0:16:470:16:52

You're not saying, we're

going to end stuff, you just say,

0:16:520:16:55

we're going to look at them

on a case-by-case basis,

0:16:550:16:57

and make sure that nobody

is earning excess profits.

0:16:570:17:00

Now, if you ask the government

whether they believe

0:17:000:17:04

that is happening, they would

presumably say no.

0:17:040:17:07

The government's approach

to outsourcing is completely

0:17:070:17:08

different from Labour.

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They are driven by outsourcing as

part of their ideological make up.

0:17:120:17:15

But isn't your ideology to get

the public sector to do more?

0:17:150:17:18

To bring everything in-house?

0:17:180:17:19

No, this isn't about ideology.

0:17:190:17:20

This is about what's best

for public services,

0:17:200:17:22

and what is the most cost-effective

method of delivering public services

0:17:220:17:24

for the UK taxpayer.

0:17:240:17:26

Now, the Conservatives unfortunately

have chosen an ideological path

0:17:260:17:34

to marketise public services and put

profit before service delivery.

0:17:360:17:38

Now, the interests of the public

and the interests of the taxpayer

0:17:380:17:41

should be paramount.

0:17:410:17:42

They are not being considered

by this government,

0:17:420:17:44

and that is what differs our

position from the Conservatives.

0:17:440:17:46

Do you think a Labour

government could commit

0:17:460:17:49

to ending PFI completely?

0:17:490:17:51

Well, we have committed

to ending PFI.

0:17:510:17:53

We've said no new PFI.

0:17:530:17:54

No new PFI.

0:17:540:17:55

No new PFI.

0:17:550:17:59

But would you end all

the PFI arrangements that

0:17:590:18:03

are existing at the moment?

0:18:030:18:03

Well, legally, we'd have

to look at the mechanics

0:18:030:18:05

of each relevant contract.

0:18:050:18:06

As I said, there would need to be

an examination of each one.

0:18:060:18:09

They will all be very different.

0:18:090:18:10

And we would have to look

at the ways we could bring

0:18:100:18:13

that back in-house.

0:18:130:18:14

There could be certain contracts

that are due to expire shortly,

0:18:140:18:17

where it might not be cost-effective

to carry out the legal

0:18:170:18:19

costs of doing that,

so we have to look at them

0:18:190:18:22

on a case-by-case basis,

but we are very firm that we do not

0:18:220:18:25

support a PFI model going forward.

0:18:250:18:27

We need to examine other ways

of delivering our large

0:18:270:18:29

infrastructure and estate related

projects that are more

0:18:290:18:31

cost-effective for the UK tax payer.

0:18:310:18:35

But when you look at individual

services, such as prison escort or

0:18:350:18:40

school meals, is that something you

can still imagine the private sector

0:18:400:18:46

doing?

I think it is a struggle to

see, for example in the case of

0:18:460:18:51

Carillion, how that can be

cost-effective for a private

0:18:510:18:55

company, to deliver a profit and

also a good level of service. This

0:18:550:19:00

is why there needs to be a

fundamental examination of the

0:19:000:19:04

delivery of public

0:19:040:19:10

delivery of public services.

Serco

delivers prison escorts. Would you

0:19:100:19:13

take that on?

We need to examine the

most cost-effective way for the UK

0:19:130:19:17

tax payers.

Would you consider it?

If it's cheaper and more secure to

0:19:170:19:22

deliver those services in-house, we

would do it.

You would do bin

0:19:220:19:29

collection, school meals and prison

escorts without using private

0:19:290:19:32

companies?

We are not saying it.

There might be certain cases where

0:19:320:19:37

we use private companies where we do

not have that capability. We need to

0:19:370:19:43

look at building up capability. We

think it will be more

0:19:430:19:47

cost-effective, in many cases, to

bring services in-house, which is

0:19:470:19:51

why we have been calling for many of

the public sector contracts that

0:19:510:19:56

Carillion hell to come back

in-house.

If there has been a profit

0:19:560:20:01

warning, is that reason enough to

say, we are not dealing with you any

0:20:010:20:07

more?

If you are following the

strategic risk policy, you have to

0:20:070:20:13

follow that guidance stringently,

which would mean you would not award

0:20:130:20:16

any further contracts to that

company until the situation is

0:20:160:20:20

rectified. The government is

required to ensure there is a crown

0:20:200:20:26

representative to oversee Carillion

when problems started to emerge. As

0:20:260:20:30

far back as September, we know this

didn't happen. There was no

0:20:300:20:35

appropriate oversight of this

contract. There was no attempt by

0:20:350:20:38

the government to mediate or

encourage

0:20:380:20:48

encourage Carillion to sort the

situation out themselves. It was

0:20:480:20:49

left out in the wilderness.

The

oversight was there? So why would it

0:20:490:20:52

be right to bring even more

government services back in-house to

0:20:520:20:55

be overseen by the people you don't

trust to look into the accountancy,

0:20:550:20:59

let alone run the proper businesses

themselves. You are talking about

0:20:590:21:05

civil services that didn't get it

right?

We are talking about bringing

0:21:050:21:09

services back into the NHS, for

example, and we would want to make

0:21:090:21:14

sure there is a stringent assessment

of the capability of those services

0:21:140:21:18

to deliver those services.

0:21:180:21:23

to deliver those services.

We

have... Wood July to see mandatory

0:21:230:21:26

reselection of every Labour MP?

That

is not a decision for me to make.

0:21:260:21:32

That is a decision for our

membership to make.

Is that the

0:21:320:21:36

right direction to go in?

We want

party democracy. It is not a

0:21:360:21:41

decision for me to make. We want the

members to decide how our party will

0:21:410:21:46

be run going forward, which is why

we are having a democracy review.

0:21:460:21:50

It's not something we've stated the

party will be doing any time soon.

0:21:500:21:55

We have trigger ballots in place at

the moment, where branches of

0:21:550:22:07

the moment, where branches of a

Labour Party constituency can decide

0:22:070:22:08

whether to have an open or closed

selection of an MP. That is our

0:22:080:22:11

process at a moment.

Thank you.

0:22:110:22:15

Our political editor,

Nick Watt, is here.

0:22:150:22:16

There was something

interesting about mandatory

0:22:160:22:18

selections in there...?

0:22:180:22:22

She is saying that that is not going

to happen any time soon, and she

0:22:220:22:27

refers to the status quo, which is

the trigger ballots. There were

0:22:270:22:31

fears among centrist Labour MPs that

these mandatory selections could be

0:22:310:22:36

on the way, because there was a

landslide victory for momentum

0:22:360:22:40

candidates in elections to Labour's

National Executive Committee.

0:22:400:22:46

Rebecca Long-Bailey tends to vote

the Corbyn way, and she has been

0:22:460:22:51

mentioned by Jeremy Corbyn

supporters as a potential successor.

0:22:510:22:55

So far heard to say, not happening

any time soon, will be noted.

Nick,

0:22:550:23:01

thank you.

0:23:010:23:06

This week, four-time Rio Olympic

champion Simone Biles became

0:23:070:23:09

the highest profile athlete to state

she was sexually abused

0:23:090:23:11

by former USA gymnastics team

doctor Larry Nasser.

0:23:110:23:13

She's one of more than 140

women to have accused

0:23:130:23:15

the 54-year-old of abuse.

0:23:150:23:17

Larissa Boyce says she was sexually

abused by Larry Nassar

0:23:170:23:20

when she was just 16.

0:23:200:23:24

Morgan McCaul says she was abused

0:23:240:23:26

by Nassar when she was

just 12 years old.

0:23:260:23:28

Both women join us

now from Michigan.

0:23:280:23:32

It is very nice of you to talk to us

about this. Can I ask you to explain

0:23:320:23:38

what happened with Larry Nassar?

The

actions that he did.

In terms of

0:23:380:23:45

what happened to you and what you

did.

Well, I was a gymnast, and I

0:23:450:23:56

hurt my back, so my coach

recommended that I go to him,

0:23:560:24:03

because he was the best around. So I

went and saw him, and he's started

0:24:030:24:09

abusing me. After a couple of

appointments, when my parents

0:24:090:24:18

stopped coming into the room with

me. And he would abuse me every time

0:24:180:24:26

I would see him. At the office, and

at the gymnastics practice at

0:24:260:24:35

Michigan State University, where the

College gymnasts...

I don't want to

0:24:350:24:42

interrupt, but you told somebody

about this. You tried to make this

0:24:420:24:45

known. And what happened?

I did.

When I

0:24:450:24:56

When I told Kathie Klages, she

humiliated me. She didn't believe

0:24:580:25:00

that Larry Nassar could be doing

this, I must be misunderstanding.

0:25:000:25:05

She then paraded in a bunch of my

team-mates to ask if any of them

0:25:050:25:10

felt uncomfortable with what he was

doing. All of them but one other

0:25:100:25:15

girl said no, so she kept the other

girl in the office, and had asked

0:25:150:25:21

talk to the Michigan State College

gymnasts. I remember sitting in her

0:25:210:25:27

office, and she was not in her room

any more, but the college gymnasts

0:25:270:25:32

said, his hands would get close to

certain areas but that they would

0:25:320:25:38

never be inappropriate. They would

never go inside. I said, that is not

0:25:380:25:45

happening to me. His fingers are

penetrating me.

I'm sorry. Very

0:25:450:25:51

distressing to make you relive this.

I want to talk to Morgan as well. If

0:25:510:25:58

Larissa's allegations all those

years ago had been believed, you

0:25:580:26:02

would have been spared.

Absolutely.

When Larissa originally came forward

0:26:020:26:10

to her coach, I hadn't even been

born yet. I was born in 1999, and

0:26:100:26:16

this occurred in 97.

And he was

still doing the same thing with

0:26:160:26:22

young gymnasts, young pupils, that

he was in those early days. That was

0:26:220:26:28

your same experience, Morgan?

Yes,

we had very similar experiences in

0:26:280:26:34

terms of what he would do to us in

the appointments.

What effect has it

0:26:340:26:39

had longer term on each of you.

Morgan, if I carry on with you. What

0:26:390:26:45

effect has it had on you?

I

struggled with depression and

0:26:450:26:53

anxiety ever since. I stopped seeing

Nassar in 2015, but what I believe

0:26:530:26:59

this has taken from me is my sense

of identity and my ability to trust

0:26:590:27:05

people. I feel like I totally

trusted Nasser. I believed he was

0:27:050:27:11

there to help me. He was very

personable. I felt like he was my

0:27:110:27:17

friend. And to find that the Man U

trusted more than any other

0:27:170:27:21

physician in the world did this

makes you wonder how much you can

0:27:210:27:25

trust your own judgment.

Larissa,

when these allegations became

0:27:250:27:33

public, and more voices came out, I

imagine for you that was a huge

0:27:330:27:38

watershed moment, but also a

frustration that it hasn't come out

0:27:380:27:44

earlier.

At first I was defending

him, because I was so brainwashed

0:27:440:27:49

into believing that I was the

problem. You know, my MSU coach and

0:27:490:27:56

my teacher had told me that what he

was doing was OK, so I just assumed

0:27:560:28:03

that I was the problem, that I must

have a dirty mind. And so when this

0:28:030:28:09

all came out, like I said, I was

defending him, and then I really

0:28:090:28:14

started to look back and remember

the details of the appointments.

0:28:140:28:19

Being an adult, I realise that what

he did was not OK, and that it was

0:28:190:28:26

sexual abuse. I got very angry. I

think I experienced every emotion

0:28:260:28:32

possible. I was angry, I was

depressed, I was crying all the

0:28:320:28:39

time. I even one time had a suicidal

thought. I was in so much pain

0:28:390:28:47

emotionally that I just didn't know

how to handle all of the thoughts of

0:28:470:28:52

how betrayed I was I not just Nassar

but by MSU, Michigan State as an

0:28:520:29:02

institution, failed me. And they

failed all of these hundreds of

0:29:020:29:05

girls that came after me, and it

could have been stopped. So it's

0:29:050:29:10

very, very difficult to think of the

way it could have been stopped.

It

0:29:100:29:16

is incredibly brave of you to share

those thoughts with us tonight.

0:29:160:29:21

Really appreciate that. Thank you

both very much indeed.

0:29:210:29:27

A lawyer for Kathie Klages

has previously said...

0:29:270:29:35

Michigan State University

have said...

0:29:520:29:58

"Any suggestion that the university

0:29:580:30:00

covered up Nassar's horriffic

conduct is simply false.

0:30:000:30:02

Nassar preyed on his victims,

changing their lives

0:30:020:30:04

in terrible ways."

0:30:040:30:05

USA Gymnastics said...

0:30:050:30:06

"Our hearts break for these athletes

0:30:060:30:07

and we deeply admire their courage

and strength in sharing

0:30:070:30:09

their experiences."

0:30:090:30:12

We know the NHS in England

is struggling to cope this winter,

0:30:120:30:17

as it tries to manage unprecedented

levels of demand.

0:30:170:30:19

As more patients come

in through A&E, hospitals have

0:30:190:30:22

to get them out of the back door

so that the system doesn't seize up.

0:30:220:30:25

For many older patients,

this means having appropriate

0:30:250:30:27

social care lined up.

0:30:270:30:29

But many older or vulnerable

patients don't have anywhere to go

0:30:290:30:32

where they can receive the care

they need, heightening

0:30:320:30:34

the social care crisis.

0:30:340:30:42

Trevor Davies was

admitted on 21/12/17.

0:30:510:30:53

He has got a lot of issues, Trevor.

0:30:530:30:55

First of all, he tried

to commit suicide.

0:30:550:31:03

He promises that he's not planning

to commit suicide now,

0:31:030:31:06

but I am not too sure,

because he's still depressed.

0:31:060:31:09

He has said that he's had seven

heart attacks in the past.

0:31:090:31:15

He lost his daughter

on his birthday.

0:31:150:31:19

His daughter was only 44 years old.

0:31:190:31:24

He has got a lot of cancers frosted

in some way in his tummy as well.

0:31:240:31:28

The GP did see him yesterday, and he

has been prescribed pain relief.

0:31:280:31:32

In terms of the level

of support he is receiving

0:31:320:31:34

from you, I don't think...

0:31:340:31:38

I'm not hearing that he should

be in a care home.

0:31:380:31:45

The last 12 months have

been horrible, you know?

0:31:450:31:50

Like, going through a divorce,

my daughter dying on my birthday,

0:31:500:31:52

which wasn't very nice, you know?

0:31:520:31:55

And it sort of sent me

like into oblivion, you know?

0:31:550:32:00

And just what to do,

how to do, where am I going?

0:32:000:32:07

So they took me into

a hospital, and got me right.

0:32:070:32:09

I come out, and then got me

right again, and I'm sort

0:32:090:32:12

of going into the system,

and hopefully they're

0:32:120:32:14

going to give me somewhere

where I'm going to be

0:32:140:32:17

happy, you know?

0:32:170:32:18

This winter is the worst winter

in terms of hospital care that

0:32:180:32:20

people have experienced.

0:32:200:32:25

The flow of patients from hospital

used to be fairly steady,

0:32:250:32:27

but there was always availability.

0:32:270:32:32

I'm not coping, so I need

someone to help me cope.

0:32:320:32:39

When I've done the assessment

on the computer, and done that bit,

0:32:390:32:42

I will send it, as I said,

to my manager, who will look

0:32:420:32:46

at it and authorise it,

and once she authorises it,

0:32:460:32:50

I'll then go on to ask for funding

for your care package.

0:32:500:32:53

Yeah.

0:32:530:32:55

I'm dying of cancer.

0:32:550:32:56

Terminal cancer.

0:32:560:32:58

So I'd like a bit of...

0:32:580:33:06

Not sympathy.

0:33:060:33:07

Common-sense.

0:33:070:33:08

This place is full already.

0:33:080:33:11

And it is the place that kind

of supports the discharges

0:33:110:33:15

from hospitals, and acts

as a middleman between

0:33:150:33:20

the hospital and the community

facilities out there.

0:33:200:33:28

If you can imagine that it's full

of people waiting to go in there,

0:33:300:33:33

and if you can imagine that you take

this out, it's not there any more,

0:33:330:33:36

these people would be in hospital

waiting to be discharged.

0:33:360:33:41

I spent seven weeks in hospital,

and then they said they were going

0:33:410:33:48

to find a place temporarily,

so they put me here.

0:33:480:33:53

I have problems with the lungs,

infection on the lungs,

0:33:530:33:58

and also they are concerned

about my heart, and also my liver.

0:33:580:34:01

What's stopping you from going home?

0:34:010:34:08

There's three or four big steps

to the front door, off the pavement.

0:34:080:34:13

There's no shower.

0:34:130:34:15

I can't use the bath.

0:34:150:34:20

Besides that, I'm getting old now

myself, and I do feel it.

0:34:200:34:23

I think, in the future,

I need a bit of care.

0:34:230:34:29

And help.

0:34:290:34:33

Janet, on unit one.

0:34:330:34:41

I was just asked yesterday to meet

with her and do an assessment,

0:34:410:34:44

because I know there's a history

of concern around the alcohol.

0:34:440:34:47

Have there been any

concerns, any observations?

0:34:470:34:50

Not while she's been with us, no.

0:34:500:34:53

No?

No.

0:34:530:34:58

No evidence of any side

effects through not having

0:34:580:35:01

alcohol or anything?

0:35:010:35:04

We did notice it in the beginning,

when she first came to us,

0:35:040:35:07

because she wasn't getting

what she wanted, her way.

0:35:070:35:10

What is it you are drinking?

0:35:100:35:11

It's a special mix.

0:35:110:35:14

Oh, right.

0:35:140:35:15

Fairly regular, anyway.

0:35:150:35:17

The social worker's main

focus is the patient.

0:35:170:35:20

This particular patient.

0:35:200:35:23

But when you look at the bigger

picture, there are many more

0:35:230:35:26

things to think about.

0:35:260:35:29

Yeah.

0:35:290:35:30

I don't mind being here.

0:35:300:35:31

I don't mind at all.

0:35:310:35:34

Do you know what kind

of a place this is?

0:35:340:35:37

It gives people time,

following hospital discharge,

0:35:370:35:42

just to improve a bit more, and have

time for an assessment to be done.

0:35:420:35:49

So there's a lot of demand,

you know, from hospitals.

0:35:490:35:52

That's why we tell people

when we come here,

0:35:520:35:56

it is for up to four weeks.

0:35:560:35:57

Yeah, I know.

0:35:570:36:03

And then we need to try and get care

support arrangements

0:36:030:36:06

in place in that time.

0:36:060:36:10

Already we're at four weeks,

but it's not your problem

0:36:100:36:12

or for you to worry about.

0:36:120:36:14

That's for us to sort out.

0:36:140:36:16

I can't live on my own.

0:36:160:36:17

Not live on your own?

0:36:170:36:18

I'll start drinking again.

0:36:180:36:20

Got you.

0:36:200:36:21

So that's the bottom line?

0:36:210:36:22

Yeah.

I'll start drinking.

0:36:220:36:24

I won't eat either.

0:36:240:36:26

I'll just drink, drink, drink.

0:36:260:36:28

You're telling me that you know

that if you went back

0:36:280:36:30

and lived on your own, there's a...

0:36:300:36:32

I've done it so many times.

0:36:320:36:34

I've just gone straight

back to drink again.

0:36:340:36:37

Yeah, OK.

0:36:370:36:45

Most of the older people that

I have worked with like

0:36:490:36:51

to have some choices.

0:36:510:36:52

They like to be in

control of their lives.

0:36:520:36:55

They like to be independent.

0:36:550:36:57

Why did you have to

move around, Janet?

0:36:570:36:59

Because I'm homeless.

0:36:590:37:00

That's why.

0:37:000:37:01

I've got no home to go to.

0:37:010:37:04

And we're up to four weeks now.

0:37:040:37:06

Yeah, we are, yeah.

0:37:060:37:07

How are you feeling about that?

0:37:070:37:09

Nervous.

0:37:090:37:10

Who wouldn't be?

0:37:100:37:11

Who wouldn't be nervous?

0:37:110:37:16

The loneliness is a killer.

0:37:160:37:20

But I'm in hope, you know?

0:37:200:37:25

And when you see a lot of older

people which are worse off than me,

0:37:250:37:28

I feel sorry for them.

0:37:280:37:30

But I've got the terminal cancer.

0:37:300:37:32

Who knows when, who knows where?

0:37:320:37:34

I don't know.

0:37:340:37:37

At the end of the day, we're sitting

there in front of an individual,

0:37:370:37:41

but we can only work

within the constraints that we have

0:37:410:37:43

in our job, obviously.

0:37:430:37:48

You know, we have to help people

to understand that, and to work

0:37:480:37:51

within what is available to them.

0:37:510:37:52

There are times when that's a very

difficult conversation.

0:37:520:37:56

We know that that's not

what we would want for people,

0:37:560:37:59

but it is all we can provide.

0:37:590:38:07

That was a look at the Kenrick

Centre, a special counsel Robert

0:38:130:38:17

Mueller centre, designed to relieve

hospitals.

0:38:170:38:20

With me in the studio

is Graeme Betts, who is interim

0:38:200:38:23

director for adult social care

at Birmingham City Council.

0:38:230:38:27

Is the Kenrick Centre, which I know

you know well, representative of the

0:38:270:38:31

wider problem is that you're seeing

now?

What the Kenrick Centre does is

0:38:310:38:38

to provide interim beds as well as

long-term beds. And it is critical

0:38:380:38:42

in helping us to manage the

pressures in the system.

And how bad

0:38:420:38:46

is the problem at the moment, are

you seeing it get worse?

I mean the

0:38:460:38:53

reality is, we can't deny there is a

lot of pressure on people like

0:38:530:38:57

myself and other directors to

mitigate that as far as possible.

0:38:570:38:59

But in reality, there's a lot of

pressure, that's what the staff are

0:38:590:39:06

telling us of. We're using our

resources such as the Kenrick Centre

0:39:060:39:09

to mitigate the pressure that's

coming through the system.

And it's

0:39:090:39:13

extraordinary to see the work going

on their - is that something that

0:39:130:39:18

can be rolled out, something that

you think will be more widely used

0:39:180:39:23

if there are resources to do that?

What's interesting about Birmingham

0:39:230:39:28

is that we've recognised that across

the system there are challenges

0:39:280:39:31

across the system, and we're now

working together very closely to

0:39:310:39:34

develop a more integrated approach

to intermediate care, and the sorts

0:39:340:39:39

of things that you saw in the

villainy would be part of that, so

0:39:390:39:44

we're expanding it.

There would be a

lot of people who aren't able to

0:39:440:39:47

make that transition from hospital

to home - when you haven't got a

0:39:470:39:54

Kenrick Centre, what happens?

I

would challenge that in some ways,

0:39:540:39:59

because what I would say is one of

the areas that we need to improve in

0:39:590:40:04

Birmingham is our enablement

services.

Home visits?

Yeah, it's

0:40:040:40:09

really helping people regain their

confidence and ability to live at

0:40:090:40:11

home. If we could improve that, we

know that we can improve the

0:40:110:40:18

outcomes for people. So, as well as

the Kenrick Centre we need to

0:40:180:40:21

balance it by using home based

approaches.

It's interesting you're

0:40:210:40:24

talking about confidence, so, it is

not just the fact that they can't,

0:40:240:40:29

it's giving people the sense that

they will be all right on their own?

0:40:290:40:34

Yes. What came through from that

film is the complexity of what we're

0:40:340:40:38

dealing with. It's not just that

there are more people coming through

0:40:380:40:43

the system, there are more people

with more complex needs coming

0:40:430:40:46

through the system, in terms of

physical and mental health and

0:40:460:40:51

challenging behaviours as well.

And

do you think that's something that

0:40:510:40:54

has changed over recent years?

Certainly. That's what the staff are

0:40:540:40:57

telling me. The people snap dealing

with now are poorly, the levels of

0:40:570:41:04

sickness are higher, and the

challenges they bring with them are

0:41:040:41:07

much more complex. I think that has

an impact in a number of ways, it

0:41:070:41:14

mixed the assessment more difficult,

particularly if you think about

0:41:140:41:17

trying to assess them in a hospital

setting, it is well nigh impossible

0:41:170:41:22

to assess a person's mental

capacity, for example. So, what

0:41:220:41:26

we're really trying to do is to use

centres like the Kenrick Centre to

0:41:260:41:30

bring people out more quickly from

hospital so that we can do the

0:41:300:41:35

in-depth assessment and ensure a

safe discharge and improve the

0:41:350:41:38

outcomes for people.

Thank you very

much for coming in. That is all we

0:41:380:41:44

have time for this evening. Kirsty

Williams with you tomorrow. From all

0:41:440:41:48

of us here, good night.

0:41:480:41:58

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