18/01/2018 Newsnight


18/01/2018

With Kirsty Wark. Is outsourcing broken? The murder of 8-year-old Zainab in Pakistan, and Macron's entente cordial.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Will the demise of Carillion be

the crash that brings

0:00:110:00:13

about a fundamental

change of culture?

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Across the public sector you have

companies that are acting not in the

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best interests of consumers of the

services.

I'll asked the Chief

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executive of one of the firm's

Bibles if the system is broken. The

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murder of six-year-old Zainab in

Pakistan has shocked the world. We

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hear from her parents on their fight

for justice.

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Is this a watershed moment for

Pakistan? What is Emmanuel Macron's

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game?

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game? On camera for the first time,

Woody Allen's adopted daughter

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accuses him of sexual abuse and he

denies it again.

How is this crazy

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story of me being brainwashed and

coached more believable than what

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I'm saying about being sexually

assaulted by my father?

We speak to

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a writer who has examined the

director's very personal archives.

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Good evening.

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Will the demise of Carillion be

the crash that brings

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about a fundamental

change of culture?

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The failure of Carillion has raised

ideological and practical questions

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over what is the best and most

economical way to deliver excellence

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in everything from schools and HS2,

to hospital services.

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Does what's happened

to Carillion demonstrate

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that the system is broken?

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In order to deal with the immediate

problem, the Business Secretary

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today chaired the first meeting

of a government taskforce, involving

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business, unions and lenders,

to support firms and workers

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affected by the firm's collapse.

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How big a deal has

outsourcing become?

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Here's our Policy Editor Chris Cook.

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This is University College

London Hospital, UCLH,

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an NHS hospital where devoted

public employees tend the sick.

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But the building

you can see was built

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by private builders and it's managed

by private contractors.

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It's a parable about how

the British state has

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been changed by our

contracting out culture.

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The key thing to understand

about outsourcing is the contract.

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Outsourcing a service

means someone, somewhere,

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must write on a sheet

of

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paper what the government wants,

what they are willing to pay and the

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consequences if they don't get it.

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And if the contractor is a private

company it can have brutal

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consequences because you don't

care if they go bust.

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That's not credibly true

if you're dealing with for

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example an NHS hospital.

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The thing is, this

contractual thinking

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affects the government's

relationships with all sorts of

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institutions, including those

in the public sector.

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The last major review of nurses'

pay was five years ago.

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In the 1980s the government

found that hospitals

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couldn't tell it how much they spend

on one procedure or another.

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Some didn't know how many staff

they actually employed.

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These days they are set clear

targets and are paid

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for the work that they do.

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They are treated more

like a contractor than

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the hospitals of old.

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Jeremy Corbyn's own

borough of Islington

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has found success raising

standards in some areas

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through contracting out

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but it's also bringing some

services back in-house.

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15 years ago housing management

in Islington wasn't in a

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great place and the council took

the decision with the support of

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residents to put it out to an arm's

length organisation.

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They were much better housing

managers and housing

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management got better but three

or four years ago we took

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a pragmatic decision to bring it

back in-house,

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the right decision and it saved

a lot of money and has enabled us to

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deliver a better service

because we don't have duplication,

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departments of communication

and other things.

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There are serious difficulties

with outsourcing.

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First, contract pricing for years

ahead is hard and you can

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end up overpaying or underpaying,

and those errors won't even out.

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Outsourcing companies will try to

bank overpayments and walk away from

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underpayments.

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Secondly, outsourcing can lead

to fractured services.

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It's really hard to

get public contracts

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that reflect the complexity

of what people have to do.

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I think the public are driven

mad by phoning at a

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public service provider to be told

that they can't do a particular

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thing because it isn't

in the contract and

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they have to phone someone else.

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What the public want is services

that understand they are

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real human beings with a complex

range of needs and issues and can

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deal with them.

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Contractors sometimes

have to borrow money to

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invest, that happens

with the PFI at UCLH.

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But given the state can borrow more

cheaply than anybody else, that is a

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waste of money. Fourth, we often see

contracts given to companies who

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have known 11 track record because

their expertise is unimportant.

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Finally, outsourcing often means

workplaces where staff work for many

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different employers, so some

employees will find it difficult to

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progress to other roles where they

work, adding to the precariousness

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of a lot of already hard working

lives.

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Phil Bentley is chief executive

of the out sourcing company Mighty,

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which holds many

government contracts.

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This is his

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first interview since

the collapse of Carillion.

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Thank you for joining us. Do you

want Carillion's public contracts?

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We don't have as many public

contracts as Carillion do with the

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government but we have some. I think

the more important thing is, what

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can we do to help people who are

worried about their jobs today, the

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hard-working people at Carillion? I

think the government is doing the

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right thing to put a stop on it and

say, look, let's fund it and

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continue looking at where we get

value from the outsourcers and make

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sure that the employees working at

Carillion aren't concerned about how

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they are going to get paid next

week. Our thoughts are really with

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them. But we are an outsourcer, we

do clearing, catering, engineering,

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we do essential services that a lot

of clients rely on us for and I

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think we'll continue to.

On the

Carillion contracts come if you went

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for them, would you go in at a

higher price? Would you suffer the

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rat of the taxpayer? Or eight higher

price?

I think the government are

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good at getting eight good deal. If

EULA at the difficulties that

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Carillion have got into. -- if you

look at the difficulties. They have

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difficulties in two areas, big cost

overruns on fixed-price contracts,

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which is a risk transfer. Secondly

they have a lot of debt and pension

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deficits as well. That's not the

sort of business we are in.

The

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problem is, though, often for

outsourcing, companies including

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yours and others go in at a very low

price because the government

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procurement looks at it and says we

need a low price for the taxpayer

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but that may not be the best deal.

I

absolutely agree.

Have you ever done

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that?

It isn't just about price. We

often say that we can't offer a

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cheaper mop and bucket, we offer a

smarter one, we want to know how

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productive it is. That's where

technology can help the industry

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provide analysis. The point you made

in the clip about not knowing how

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much things cost, we can give our

clients real-time information about

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what's really going on in their

premises and they value that.

It is

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still an imprecise science. Before

you came, Minety sold off care for

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the elderly for £2. -- Mighty.

That

was before my time. The other point

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is about risk. If you price the

Aberdeen bypass at 500 million,

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that's a fixed-price contract and if

it's going to cost you £1 billion

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you are on the hook for that.

You'd

like to take more of the risk?

No, I

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think we should be making sure that

the risk we take is appropriate for

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the contract and our financial

situation. We are £2.2 billion of

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revenue and we have cost, the sliver

of profit is at risk if we don't

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price contracts properly.

But maybe

you don't take enough profit to give

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yourself that contingency that you

aren't going to get from a

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government contract because you are

so desperate, as the others are, do

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get the contract, and that's the

problem for outsourcing.

I don't

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think it is, actually. We looked

after Lloyds bank, Vodafone, the

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cleaning houses of parliament and

Buckingham Palace, these are

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profitable contracts and they should

continue to be because we are expert

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at what we do, we focus on scale and

we understand risk. I hope we get it

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right more often than not.

G4S lost

the contract for looking after

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prisoners, the government contract,

you got it, it was a half billion

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pound contract. Do you think on that

contract the danger is that you are

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going to take too much risk as well?

Obviously G4S had a problem, who's

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to say that you won't?

It is Capita,

to be fair. This contract has been

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nine months in the gestation. There

have been a lot of conversations

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about risk and pricing. We have caps

on the pricing so that if there is a

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change, and who knows how many

immigrants we have, what we are

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dealing with here. We have two price

risk into the contract.

What was

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your profit margin on that contract?

Quite low but appropriate for the

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risk.

What was it?

That is

commercially, we aren't going to...

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The danger it is too low.

I can tell

you that we have looked over the

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contracts in a lot of detail. We

provide services at Heathrow and

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there was a synergy between

escorting and Heathrow Airport where

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we operate today. You have to look

at the business.

Jeremy Corbyn says

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that the £10 living wage.

We are

supportive of it and always have

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been.

Thank you for joining us.

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The murder and rape of six-year-old

Zainab in Pakistan last week

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provoked outrage in the country

and across the world.

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Thousands tweeted their

support under the hashtag

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"Justice for Zainab."

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But now investigators think that DNA

links the man responsible

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for the horrific killing to attacks

on seven other young girls

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in the same city over

the last two and half years.

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There's now a huge manhunt underway.

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But why were the authorities

seemingly so indifferent until now?

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Secunder Kermani has been

tracing the killings -

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and has this report

from the Pakistani city of Kasur.

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Once home to one of Pakistan's most

famous poets, Kasur, now a city on

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edge. It is the story of the murder,

rape or salt of at least eight young

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girls by it seems one man in one

small part of the city. All of the

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victims went missing close to their

homes. All of their bodies were

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dumped a few hundred metres away.

The eldest was just seven years old.

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These are the last images of

six-year-old Zainab alive, being led

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away by the hand of an unknown man.

She'd been on her way to a Koran

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class but never turned up. Her body

was found in this rubbish dump not

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far from her home, five days later.

Zainab's mother proudly shows me her

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daughter's schoolwork. Her parents

were in Saudi Arabia on pilgrimage

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when she went missing. They arrived

back in Pakistan to bury her.

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They believe the police should have

done more when Zainab first

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disappeared.

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At the Punjab information technology

board, they are helping the police

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hunt down the possible suspects.

All

the data from close to Zainab's

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house as well as CCTV footage...

They are using mobile phone tracking

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data, normally used to catch

terrorists, to identify the killer

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and whether he had accomplices.

The

crime scene where this girl lived,

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the CCTV footage that emerged is

about half a kilometre away so there

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is the issue of transporting the

body back to where it was found. It

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isn't easy to carry a body halfway

across the town. Was there somebody

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else helping them?

Police have

discovered traces of the same DNA in

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a similar cases including Zainab's.

The first is an attempted rape in

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June, 2015. Nearly a year later

another girl is attacked but

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survives. Last year there was an

attack every few months. Five girls

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were killed, one survived.

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This man's daughter was the first to

be murdered. The five-year-old

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disappeared on his birthday last

January. He still has the teddy bear

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she gave him that morning. He is

furious that the killer was never

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caught.

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Police are now coming the

neighbourhood collecting DNA

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samples. They've done over 400 tests

already. But the families of many

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victims believe the police didn't

properly investigate the previous

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murders when they first happened.

Instead they wrongly accused

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innocent men. One of the most

serious allegations we've uncovered

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is that police carried out the

extrajudicial killing of one

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suspect. Perhaps because they

thought the court would set him

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free. Perhaps to put an end to the

rising public anger. Police say this

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man was identified by a witness and

killed trying to escape. But we have

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been told he was taken into custody

and deliberately shot. We have been

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investigating what happened. A month

after the first killing, this man

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and his five-year-old cousin were

playing outside when she was

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kidnapped. Her body was found later

that night in a construction site.

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His memory is understandably vague

but the family says he showed police

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were the kidnapping happened and

somehow identified a suspect. The

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suspect was apparently a labourer

who had recently moved to the city.

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His family believe the police used

him to cover up their failure to

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catch the real

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It now seems Mudasir was not the

killer. Police say they found traces

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of the same DNA on the body of the

girl he supposedly murdered on the

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other victims, including those

attacked after he was killed. I put

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our findings to the regional

government.

If that is the case, if

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it has unearthed in such a concrete

way in which we have evidence the

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person who was killed, his DNA was

not a match and it's related to the

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same perpetrator, which it is, no we

will have a fully fledged enquiry on

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that. Those who are responsible for

this extrajudicial killing will not

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be speared.

Last April, two months

after Mudasir was killed another

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girl was raped and killed. Another

two months later the same happened

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to a seven-year-old. By the time the

body was found last July a clear

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pattern I began to emerge. All of

the girls were found in fairly

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public places. In graveyards, and

houses under construction, or in

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rubbish dumps. The attacker never

tried to bury any of them. Anger in

0:18:500:18:59

this city was growing. Politicians

promised to investigate. But the

0:18:590:19:03

attacks didn't stop. Another young

girl was assaulted in November. She

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is currently in hospital.

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In Zainab's school classmates say

they will keep her seat empty.

0:19:260:19:30

Parents are being warned to always

pick-up and drop-off their children.

0:19:300:19:34

But there is anger in the city that

it has taken so many attacks were

0:19:340:19:38

the authorities to really take

action. Why wasn't this level of

0:19:380:19:41

effort we are now seeing when the

investigation done before?

To be

0:19:410:19:48

honest I don't have a plausible

justification for that. It should

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have been from day one the manner in

which we are doing now.

Is that not

0:19:510:19:57

the governments responsibility?

It

is.

So it is a failure?

If I keep

0:19:570:20:04

counting the police operations we

were committed to the efforts we

0:20:040:20:07

made it will not justify it, unless

we catch him.

0:20:070:20:16

The deaths of these young girls is

provoking a national debate in

0:20:160:20:20

Pakistan about child abuse. The

priority along with reflection is

0:20:200:20:25

the need to catch this killer before

he strikes again.

0:20:250:20:31

We're joined by Nadia Jamil -

who's a Pakistani actress

0:20:310:20:34

and children's rights campaigner

0:20:340:20:35

Good evening to you.

Good evening.

Is there a feeling with Zainab's

0:20:350:20:44

horrific rape and murder we have a

moment like that of the Indian bus,

0:20:440:20:48

that it will be taken seriously. The

testimony of the audition there was

0:20:480:20:57

extraordinary, almost complacent.

There you are. Even know it's not

0:20:570:21:02

enough, I feel. Paradigm shift

happens so subtly and maybe this is

0:21:020:21:09

it? 2015 when the rapes happened,

hundreds and hundreds of rapes

0:21:090:21:17

reported of children who were raped

on camera, at gunpoint, being told

0:21:170:21:21

to smile or I will shoot you.

And

these were used to blackmail the

0:21:210:21:27

families?

Absolutely. Brothers,

sisters, families blackmailed. And a

0:21:270:21:35

ring was exposed, perpetrators were

exposed. Names were brought out. And

0:21:350:21:44

yet, the lawyer who I worked with

over there when I used to go to

0:21:440:21:47

rehabilitate the children and work

with the children, he said, there

0:21:470:21:52

are 400, 300 that are out there but

there are thousands who come to me.

0:21:520:21:56

But in this one city, this city

area, Kasur, we now have eight

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attempted killings, seven of which

were successful, one child is in

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hospital. And it's taken until now

to have any kind of concerted

0:22:100:22:13

effort. Why is that? Is it a feeling

of police, a conservative society, a

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of government? Is it a societal

problem that they don't want to

0:22:180:22:24

discuss this?

Look... I was 17 when

I started working with children.

0:22:240:22:29

Every single day I opened the

newspaper since I was 17 and I am 45

0:22:290:22:32

now. You read in the newspaper might

find raped, dead. There are four or

0:22:320:22:40

five little blurbs everywhere every

single day. Now suddenly that person

0:22:400:22:48

has a name, it is Zainab.

Social

media has been a difference do you

0:22:480:22:56

think?

Yes I think now the apathy

which was dormant in our public has

0:22:560:23:03

pressured the government, and the

media, to start taking names, start

0:23:030:23:08

reporting. And the pressure is on

them.

Is that pressure is also

0:23:080:23:13

because of social media being global

so pressure is being heaped on

0:23:130:23:19

Pakistani authorities which means

they try harder?

They are petrified.

0:23:190:23:23

Politicians are only interested in

power. Unite, the civilians, and the

0:23:230:23:32

civic body of the state, has to put

pressure on the politicians to work

0:23:320:23:35

and earn a power and we have not

done that yet. Now we are doing it

0:23:350:23:39

but the point is, will we maintain

this pressure?

Also do you think the

0:23:390:23:45

state has a capacity to solve these

crimes?

Absolutely not. I don't

0:23:450:23:50

think the state has the capacity...

Then how do they do it?

It is the

0:23:500:23:57

public who will have to understand

that the state is not equipped, it

0:23:570:24:01

is not delegating to the right

people. Prevention, law and order,

0:24:010:24:10

look at Kasur, the policemen, I have

seen videos of them laughing and

0:24:100:24:13

mocking the parents whose children

were raped. Education, empathy,

0:24:130:24:19

these men are desensitised to a

point where it's ridiculous. When

0:24:190:24:25

you have your marriage, the legal

age for marriage in Pujara is

0:24:250:24:28

currently 16. Four five years, what

is the difference between 12 and 16?

0:24:280:24:34

If you are able to have

nonconsensual sex with a

0:24:340:24:39

16-year-old, because if you marry

her you can have nonconsensual sex

0:24:390:24:43

with her, you can have it with a

12-year-old. And then a

0:24:430:24:46

ten-year-old. And then what is a

seven-year-old? So you raise the age

0:24:460:24:50

of girls who are supposed to be

married, you do that, it's a multi

0:24:500:24:57

pronged operation which needs to be

done. Education, Patriarca, is the

0:24:570:25:02

state equipped and well a delegate

to the right people?

Thank you very

0:25:020:25:06

much indeed.

0:25:060:25:08

There was no sign of a rolled

up Bayeux Tapestry,

0:25:080:25:11

which is technically an embroidery,

under Emmanual Macron's arm

0:25:110:25:13

when he arrived for his first

UK Presidential visit,

0:25:130:25:15

but it was a sweetener,

if a strange one, given

0:25:150:25:17

the tapestry's subject matter.

0:25:170:25:18

But the real "give" at least

initially seems to be on our side -

0:25:180:25:22

£44 million for better border

security at Calais, in return for UK

0:25:220:25:25

checks on their side of the channel.

0:25:250:25:31

The mood music between the two

countries ahead of Brexit

0:25:310:25:33

may be positive but the message

from the visit of the French

0:25:330:25:36

President is he is now

the main player in the EU.

0:25:360:25:39

Theresa May kicked off the press

conference with a gesture

0:25:390:25:42

in a second language.

0:25:420:25:43

President Macron,?je suis

tres heureux de vous

0:25:430:25:46

accueillir?aujourd'hui pour votre

premiere visite au Royaume-Uni en

0:25:460:25:48

tant que?President.

0:25:480:25:54

So what did we learn

from the May Macron joint

0:25:540:25:58

press conference?

0:25:580:26:06

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban

and our political editor Nick Watt

0:26:070:26:09

are here and they've

both picked a highlight.

0:26:090:26:14

You had Theresa May reaching out in

French which was more similar to Ted

0:26:140:26:18

Heath rather than Tony Blair. Trying

to revive the Entente cordiale

0:26:180:26:21

because Theresa May wants to show

that whilst the UK is leaving the EU

0:26:210:26:27

it is not leaving Europe, and this

was the response.

0:26:270:26:33

TRANSLATION:

I want to make sure

that the Single Market is preserved

0:26:330:26:36

because that's very much

at the heart of the European Union.

0:26:360:26:39

So the choice is on the British

side, not on my side.

0:26:390:26:42

But they can have the no

differentiated access

0:26:420:26:45

to the financial services,

if you want access

0:26:450:26:47

to the Single Market,

including the financial services,

0:26:470:26:51

be my guest, but that means you need

to contribute to the budget

0:26:510:26:54

and acknowledge the jurisdiction,

the European jurisdiction.

0:26:540:27:02

That was the absolutely

fundamentalist EU position on access

0:27:030:27:07

to, for the financial services to

the single market after Brexit. As

0:27:070:27:11

the president said, be my guest, you

can have access if you observe the

0:27:110:27:15

rules which means paying into the

budget and excepting the

0:27:150:27:18

jurisdiction of the European Court

of Justice. If you cannot accept

0:27:180:27:21

that, he is saying, then you are

looking at a deal along the lines of

0:27:210:27:26

Canada and with Canada there is no

access for services. Important to

0:27:260:27:31

say Theresa May did say at the press

conference that she is confident the

0:27:310:27:35

UK will be able to get a deal, she

has been calling it a pistol deal,

0:27:350:27:39

not an off-the-shelf deal which will

cover goods and services.

And

0:27:390:27:43

Emmanuel Macron was aware of his

audience behind him with the rest of

0:27:430:27:48

the EU, from your point as double

editor what was the most important

0:27:480:27:51

thing?

Everyone expected security

cooperation is a natural for the UK

0:27:510:28:00

and we got more details on that, in

and things like that. But people

0:28:000:28:04

were saying Britain voted for Brexit

you could forget having the border

0:28:040:28:08

at Calais, it will be moved to Dover

and a French reporter pointed out to

0:28:080:28:14

the French president that he was one

of those people. He said you were

0:28:140:28:18

saying the border was moving so why

have you changed your mind and

0:28:180:28:21

signed this treaty today extending

it, putting more money into it and

0:28:210:28:26

effectively investing into the

future of the border? He gave some

0:28:260:28:30

predictable I suppose you could say

reasons about the humanitarian

0:28:300:28:34

aspect of it but listen closely to

what he goes on to say in this clip.

0:28:340:28:38

TRANSLATION:

I think this treaty

will very much enable us both to

0:28:380:28:45

have a more human approach to these

people. It will be efficient and

0:28:450:28:51

also preserve the quality of this

joint treaty. There is also the

0:28:510:28:56

economic aspect of this treaty. Like

the Prime Minister said, on both

0:28:560:29:00

sides of the border we want to

continue develop our trade, economic

0:29:000:29:04

contracts. There is a lot of

business to be done and we have

0:29:040:29:07

businesses on both sides so it's to

that effect that we need a very safe

0:29:070:29:11

border.

Some people were saying this

is all about the people and then he

0:29:110:29:15

uses it to talk about trade and

economic cooperation and his hopes

0:29:150:29:20

for deepening economic cooperation

in all sorts of areas. You might say

0:29:200:29:24

that's the sort of thing people say

at summits. It doesn't cost

0:29:240:29:27

anything. But let's be honest, we

are now going into the seediest

0:29:270:29:31

trading aspects of the Brexit talks

and some people in the commission

0:29:310:29:35

might have preferred him not to be

explicit about that.

If you talking,

0:29:350:29:42

do you think he was off script and

freelancing or wasn't very well

0:29:420:29:50

worked out?

I what is inevitable is

that when you have leader to lead

0:29:500:29:54

engagements like this they will talk

about it. This is where some people

0:29:540:30:00

in the Foreign Office, on the

British side and in the Department

0:30:000:30:04

for exiting the EU as well believe

they can open up some latitude and

0:30:040:30:08

differences between the 27 members

and why it's so important from EU

0:30:080:30:12

perspective, and he paid some, he

said we only have one negotiator on

0:30:120:30:20

this so it shows a sense of all that

is.

So in that sense, on that

0:30:200:30:25

reading was at quite a win for

Theresa May? Is that going to

0:30:250:30:30

continue as more EU leaders trot

over the next you to see her?

0:30:300:30:38

As far as goods are concerned, it

sounds like the French are up for a

0:30:380:30:42

deal. There is a lot of pressure on

Macron to get a deal on goods. There

0:30:420:30:48

is a lot of thought that you may

find it in the future negotiation

0:30:480:30:51

that there is an early deal on goods

but services, the largest part of

0:30:510:30:58

the UK economy, that might be a

difference -- different story.

Thank

0:30:580:31:04

you for joining us.

0:31:040:31:06

"He's been lying and he's

been lying for so long."

0:31:060:31:08

Woody Allen's adopted daughter

Dylan Farrow spoke on camera to CBS

0:31:080:31:11

for the first time today

about the sexual abuse she claims

0:31:110:31:15

she suffered at the hands

of her father 25 years ago.

0:31:150:31:18

She spoke in detail

of what she says happened

0:31:180:31:20

to her when she was seven years old.

0:31:200:31:22

Allen has repeatedly

denied the allegation,

0:31:220:31:23

most recently today,

but sentiment against the veteran

0:31:230:31:26

director has grown in recent months,

with several actors distancing

0:31:260:31:32

themselves from him, or donating

their earnings from his films

0:31:320:31:35

to sexual harassment groups.

0:31:350:31:36

The latest, in the last week,

is Rebecca Hall who starred

0:31:360:31:40

in Vicky Christina Barcelona

and in Allen's latest film.

0:31:400:31:42

In a moment I'll speak

to the journalist Richard Morgan

0:31:420:31:44

and Tess Rafferty,

a writer and activist.

0:31:440:31:47

But first here is an extract

from Dylan Farrow's CBS

0:31:470:31:49

interview this morning.

0:31:490:31:50

What I don't understand is,

how is this crazy story of me

0:31:500:31:53

being brainwashed and coached more

believable than what I'm saying

0:31:530:31:59

about being sexually

assaulted by my father?

0:31:590:32:05

Because your mother was very angry,

so that she would try and coach you,

0:32:050:32:08

try and get you to turn

against your father.

0:32:080:32:11

Except every step of the way,

my mother has only encouraged me

0:32:110:32:14

to tell the truth, she's

never coached me.

0:32:140:32:16

I wanted to play a clip from 60

Minutes, an interview

0:32:160:32:19

he did at the time,

where he was asked

0:32:190:32:21

about that incident.

0:32:210:32:22

Are you OK with looking at it?

0:32:220:32:24

You OK?

0:32:240:32:32

Isn't it illogical that I'm

going to, at the height of a very

0:32:320:32:35

bitter and acrimonious custody

fight, drive up to Connecticut,

0:32:350:32:39

where nobody likes me,

I'm in a house full of enemies...

0:32:390:32:44

I mean, Mia was so enraged

at me and she had got

0:32:440:32:49

all of the kids to be angry at me,

that I'm going to drive

0:32:490:32:53

up there and suddenly,

on visitation, pick this moment

0:32:530:32:55

in my life to become

a child molester?

0:32:550:32:57

It's just incredible.

0:32:570:32:58

If I wanted to be a child

molester, I had many

0:32:580:33:01

opportunities in the past.

0:33:010:33:04

I could have quietly made a custody

settlement with Mia in some way

0:33:040:33:07

and done it in the future.

0:33:070:33:09

You know, it's so insane.

0:33:090:33:12

Earlier I spoke to the journalist

Richard Morgan, and Tess Rafferty,

0:33:120:33:16

a writer, comedian and activist,

who created the Take Back

0:33:160:33:18

the Workplace march.

0:33:180:33:20

These allegations were first made

in 1992, so I started by asking

0:33:200:33:23

Tess Rafferty why Dylan Farrow might

have chosen to speak

0:33:230:33:25

out again on TV now.

0:33:250:33:30

I can't speak to that. I think she

said in her interview that she

0:33:300:33:35

thought she needed to say it, she

wanted to take her me too moment,

0:33:350:33:42

not just write about it but come

forward, maybe seeing her speaking

0:33:420:33:47

about it may make a difference for

them. She expresses, and I can only

0:33:470:33:53

imagine the frustration in seeing

these women coming forward and

0:33:530:33:57

telling stories and being believed

and men as well coming forward

0:33:570:34:03

telling their stories, and people

are still sceptical about her,

0:34:030:34:07

people continue to work with Woody

Allen despite her story from which

0:34:070:34:11

she has never wavered.

On the other

hand, Woody Allen has never been in

0:34:110:34:18

a court of law, these allegations

have been denied. In a sense you can

0:34:180:34:23

say that the danger is, Richard

Morgan, that we want victims to come

0:34:230:34:28

forward of course but the court of

public opinion can be quite a

0:34:280:34:31

dangerous thing.

The fact that it is

a public opinion is important

0:34:310:34:37

because it is important to remember

that Dylan Farrow is not a

0:34:370:34:41

celebrity, she isn't famous or

powerful, she is the child of a mess

0:34:410:34:45

and powerful people which is a lot

of pressure to live up to -- child

0:34:450:34:51

of rich and powerful people. She may

not feel so rich, comfortable or

0:34:510:34:58

empowered to speak up, which may be

part of her delay but it is

0:34:580:35:03

something to remember about why

people choose to speak up down the

0:35:030:35:06

road and not immediately. The idea

that somebody should speak up

0:35:060:35:10

immediately after, in the aftermath

of a crisis, is a little bit of an

0:35:100:35:17

unfair expectation.

And she was only

seven.

Right.

She's making

0:35:170:35:23

allegations about what happened when

she was only seven.

And I want to

0:35:230:35:26

say that she did speak up when she

was seven, she told her mother what

0:35:260:35:30

happened.

Interesting point you make

about, she's not a famous person,

0:35:300:35:36

she is the child of celebrities,

which in a way makes harder for her

0:35:360:35:40

to speak up because it is the

adopted father who is in the

0:35:400:35:47

limelight, who has had many people

working with him all over the world,

0:35:470:35:52

famous actors and actresses, so for

her, in a way, that must have been

0:35:520:35:56

quite difficult.

Yeah I think it

looked incredibly difficult and I

0:35:560:36:03

think she's very brave for what she

did and continuing to put her story

0:36:030:36:07

out there when so many people who

readily believe every other story

0:36:070:36:12

are discounting hers by continuing

to work with her father.

Richard

0:36:120:36:17

Morgan, you have gone through the

archive, a very personal archive

0:36:170:36:22

that Woody Allen has put in Winston

University, 56 boxes, I think,

0:36:220:36:29

you've been through everything. What

were you researching? -- in

0:36:290:36:34

Princeton University.

He is an

unparalleled artistic genius, there

0:36:340:36:40

is no one like him in art alive

today. I wanted to get a sense of

0:36:400:36:48

that creative process, how someone

can be at the forefront of the

0:36:480:36:53

avant-garde for many decades, to

look into his thinking. It is like

0:36:530:37:00

Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks or

Shakespeare's diary.

You were

0:37:000:37:08

surprised by what you found?

Yeah, I

was surprised by the persistence of

0:37:080:37:12

the imagery.

0:37:120:37:17

the imagery. He really obsesses

about very young women, 18 years

0:37:190:37:24

old, 19 years old. There is one

point where he writes in notes, this

0:37:240:37:29

college student should the maybe 17,

18, 19, but there is no thought

0:37:290:37:38

about that to any of the male

characters. He is very fixated

0:37:380:37:46

specifically an 18-year-old women

and sometimes younger than that. It

0:37:460:37:50

is him challenging... It is the bare

minimum of legality.

And he knows

0:37:500:37:58

that the public can view these, he

knows that these boxes can be

0:37:580:38:02

examined?

This is the weird thing.

His defense against Dylan Farrow's

0:38:020:38:12

accusations, what kind of person

would do that? Why would any

0:38:120:38:15

rational person do that? Also, why

would any rational person writes

0:38:150:38:21

their darkest sexual fantasies over

the decades and submit it to a

0:38:210:38:29

library for public perusal?

Or put

it on film.

I wonder if you think

0:38:290:38:38

that a film like Manhattan could

ever be made now?

Gosh, I hope not.

0:38:380:38:46

I certainly think there would be a

lot of scrutiny about it and I hope

0:38:460:38:51

it wouldn't be made because you

know, in many states, having sacks

0:38:510:38:56

with a woman under 18 is considered

statutory

0:38:560:39:03

statutory rape. We think of it as...

I don't know if he was in his 40s,

0:39:030:39:16

it was a 30-year-old age difference,

the idea of him dating a 17-year-old

0:39:160:39:23

girl, not thinking it is wildly

inappropriate and yet it is a crime

0:39:230:39:26

in many places.

Whatever comes out

of this TV interview, do you think

0:39:260:39:32

Woody Allen's career is now over?

I

think Woody Allen's career is going

0:39:320:39:39

to be a series of people asking

anyone who works with him why they

0:39:390:39:44

have worked with Woody Allen.

Thank

you for joining us.

0:39:440:39:49

And before we go time

for a quick Viewsnight.

0:39:490:39:52

Tonight, Masha Gessen,

New Yorker writer and author

0:39:520:39:53

of The Future is History:

How Totalitarianism Reclaimed

0:39:530:39:55

Russia, who argues that opponents

of Donald Trump are fooling

0:39:550:39:57

themselves if they think the Russia

investigation is a magic bullet

0:39:570:40:00

to remove the president.

0:40:000:40:03

That's all we have time for.

0:42:100:42:12

Mark Urban is here tomorrrow.

0:42:120:42:13

Goodnight.

0:42:130:42:19

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Is outsourcing broken? The murder of 8-year-old Zainab in Pakistan, Macron's entente cordial, and Woody Allen's adoptive daughter's abuse claim.


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