With Kirsty Wark. Is outsourcing broken? The murder of 8-year-old Zainab in Pakistan, and Macron's entente cordial.
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Will the demise of Carillion be
the crash that brings
about a fundamental
change of culture?
Across the public sector you have
companies that are acting not in the
best interests of consumers of the
I'll asked the Chief
executive of one of the firm's
Bibles if the system is broken. The
murder of six-year-old Zainab in
Pakistan has shocked the world. We
hear from her parents on their fight
Is this a watershed moment for
Pakistan? What is Emmanuel Macron's
game? On camera for the first time,
Woody Allen's adopted daughter
accuses him of sexual abuse and he
denies it again.
How is this crazy
story of me being brainwashed and
coached more believable than what
I'm saying about being sexually
assaulted by my father?
We speak to
a writer who has examined the
director's very personal archives.
Will the demise of Carillion be
the crash that brings
about a fundamental
change of culture?
The failure of Carillion has raised
ideological and practical questions
over what is the best and most
economical way to deliver excellence
in everything from schools and HS2,
to hospital services.
Does what's happened
to Carillion demonstrate
that the system is broken?
In order to deal with the immediate
problem, the Business Secretary
today chaired the first meeting
of a government taskforce, involving
business, unions and lenders,
to support firms and workers
affected by the firm's collapse.
How big a deal has
Here's our Policy Editor Chris Cook.
This is University College
London Hospital, UCLH,
an NHS hospital where devoted
public employees tend the sick.
But the building
you can see was built
by private builders and it's managed
by private contractors.
It's a parable about how
the British state has
been changed by our
contracting out culture.
The key thing to understand
about outsourcing is the contract.
Outsourcing a service
means someone, somewhere,
must write on a sheet
paper what the government wants,
what they are willing to pay and the
consequences if they don't get it.
And if the contractor is a private
company it can have brutal
consequences because you don't
care if they go bust.
That's not credibly true
if you're dealing with for
example an NHS hospital.
The thing is, this
affects the government's
relationships with all sorts of
institutions, including those
in the public sector.
The last major review of nurses'
pay was five years ago.
In the 1980s the government
found that hospitals
couldn't tell it how much they spend
on one procedure or another.
Some didn't know how many staff
they actually employed.
These days they are set clear
targets and are paid
for the work that they do.
They are treated more
like a contractor than
the hospitals of old.
Jeremy Corbyn's own
borough of Islington
has found success raising
standards in some areas
through contracting out
but it's also bringing some
services back in-house.
15 years ago housing management
in Islington wasn't in a
great place and the council took
the decision with the support of
residents to put it out to an arm's
They were much better housing
managers and housing
management got better but three
or four years ago we took
a pragmatic decision to bring it
the right decision and it saved
a lot of money and has enabled us to
deliver a better service
because we don't have duplication,
departments of communication
and other things.
There are serious difficulties
First, contract pricing for years
ahead is hard and you can
end up overpaying or underpaying,
and those errors won't even out.
Outsourcing companies will try to
bank overpayments and walk away from
Secondly, outsourcing can lead
to fractured services.
It's really hard to
get public contracts
that reflect the complexity
of what people have to do.
I think the public are driven
mad by phoning at a
public service provider to be told
that they can't do a particular
thing because it isn't
in the contract and
they have to phone someone else.
What the public want is services
that understand they are
real human beings with a complex
range of needs and issues and can
deal with them.
have to borrow money to
invest, that happens
with the PFI at UCLH.
But given the state can borrow more
cheaply than anybody else, that is a
waste of money. Fourth, we often see
contracts given to companies who
have known 11 track record because
their expertise is unimportant.
Finally, outsourcing often means
workplaces where staff work for many
different employers, so some
employees will find it difficult to
progress to other roles where they
work, adding to the precariousness
of a lot of already hard working
Phil Bentley is chief executive
of the out sourcing company Mighty,
which holds many
This is his
first interview since
the collapse of Carillion.
Thank you for joining us. Do you
want Carillion's public contracts?
We don't have as many public
contracts as Carillion do with the
government but we have some. I think
the more important thing is, what
can we do to help people who are
worried about their jobs today, the
hard-working people at Carillion? I
think the government is doing the
right thing to put a stop on it and
say, look, let's fund it and
continue looking at where we get
value from the outsourcers and make
sure that the employees working at
Carillion aren't concerned about how
they are going to get paid next
week. Our thoughts are really with
them. But we are an outsourcer, we
do clearing, catering, engineering,
we do essential services that a lot
of clients rely on us for and I
think we'll continue to.
Carillion contracts come if you went
for them, would you go in at a
higher price? Would you suffer the
rat of the taxpayer? Or eight higher
I think the government are
good at getting eight good deal. If
EULA at the difficulties that
Carillion have got into. -- if you
look at the difficulties. They have
difficulties in two areas, big cost
overruns on fixed-price contracts,
which is a risk transfer. Secondly
they have a lot of debt and pension
deficits as well. That's not the
sort of business we are in.
problem is, though, often for
outsourcing, companies including
yours and others go in at a very low
price because the government
procurement looks at it and says we
need a low price for the taxpayer
but that may not be the best deal.
Have you ever done
It isn't just about price. We
often say that we can't offer a
cheaper mop and bucket, we offer a
smarter one, we want to know how
productive it is. That's where
technology can help the industry
provide analysis. The point you made
in the clip about not knowing how
much things cost, we can give our
clients real-time information about
what's really going on in their
premises and they value that.
still an imprecise science. Before
you came, Minety sold off care for
the elderly for £2. -- Mighty.
was before my time. The other point
is about risk. If you price the
Aberdeen bypass at 500 million,
that's a fixed-price contract and if
it's going to cost you £1 billion
you are on the hook for that.
like to take more of the risk?
think we should be making sure that
the risk we take is appropriate for
the contract and our financial
situation. We are £2.2 billion of
revenue and we have cost, the sliver
of profit is at risk if we don't
price contracts properly.
you don't take enough profit to give
yourself that contingency that you
aren't going to get from a
government contract because you are
so desperate, as the others are, do
get the contract, and that's the
problem for outsourcing.
think it is, actually. We looked
after Lloyds bank, Vodafone, the
cleaning houses of parliament and
Buckingham Palace, these are
profitable contracts and they should
continue to be because we are expert
at what we do, we focus on scale and
we understand risk. I hope we get it
right more often than not.
the contract for looking after
prisoners, the government contract,
you got it, it was a half billion
pound contract. Do you think on that
contract the danger is that you are
going to take too much risk as well?
Obviously G4S had a problem, who's
to say that you won't?
It is Capita,
to be fair. This contract has been
nine months in the gestation. There
have been a lot of conversations
about risk and pricing. We have caps
on the pricing so that if there is a
change, and who knows how many
immigrants we have, what we are
dealing with here. We have two price
risk into the contract.
your profit margin on that contract?
Quite low but appropriate for the
What was it?
commercially, we aren't going to...
The danger it is too low.
I can tell
you that we have looked over the
contracts in a lot of detail. We
provide services at Heathrow and
there was a synergy between
escorting and Heathrow Airport where
we operate today. You have to look
at the business.
Jeremy Corbyn says
that the £10 living wage.
supportive of it and always have
Thank you for joining us.
The murder and rape of six-year-old
Zainab in Pakistan last week
provoked outrage in the country
and across the world.
Thousands tweeted their
support under the hashtag
"Justice for Zainab."
But now investigators think that DNA
links the man responsible
for the horrific killing to attacks
on seven other young girls
in the same city over
the last two and half years.
There's now a huge manhunt underway.
But why were the authorities
seemingly so indifferent until now?
Secunder Kermani has been
tracing the killings -
and has this report
from the Pakistani city of Kasur.
Once home to one of Pakistan's most
famous poets, Kasur, now a city on
edge. It is the story of the murder,
rape or salt of at least eight young
girls by it seems one man in one
small part of the city. All of the
victims went missing close to their
homes. All of their bodies were
dumped a few hundred metres away.
The eldest was just seven years old.
These are the last images of
six-year-old Zainab alive, being led
away by the hand of an unknown man.
She'd been on her way to a Koran
class but never turned up. Her body
was found in this rubbish dump not
far from her home, five days later.
Zainab's mother proudly shows me her
daughter's schoolwork. Her parents
were in Saudi Arabia on pilgrimage
when she went missing. They arrived
back in Pakistan to bury her.
They believe the police should have
done more when Zainab first
At the Punjab information technology
board, they are helping the police
hunt down the possible suspects.
the data from close to Zainab's
house as well as CCTV footage...
They are using mobile phone tracking
data, normally used to catch
terrorists, to identify the killer
and whether he had accomplices.
crime scene where this girl lived,
the CCTV footage that emerged is
about half a kilometre away so there
is the issue of transporting the
body back to where it was found. It
isn't easy to carry a body halfway
across the town. Was there somebody
else helping them?
discovered traces of the same DNA in
a similar cases including Zainab's.
The first is an attempted rape in
June, 2015. Nearly a year later
another girl is attacked but
survives. Last year there was an
attack every few months. Five girls
were killed, one survived.
This man's daughter was the first to
be murdered. The five-year-old
disappeared on his birthday last
January. He still has the teddy bear
she gave him that morning. He is
furious that the killer was never
Police are now coming the
neighbourhood collecting DNA
samples. They've done over 400 tests
already. But the families of many
victims believe the police didn't
properly investigate the previous
murders when they first happened.
Instead they wrongly accused
innocent men. One of the most
serious allegations we've uncovered
is that police carried out the
extrajudicial killing of one
suspect. Perhaps because they
thought the court would set him
free. Perhaps to put an end to the
rising public anger. Police say this
man was identified by a witness and
killed trying to escape. But we have
been told he was taken into custody
and deliberately shot. We have been
investigating what happened. A month
after the first killing, this man
and his five-year-old cousin were
playing outside when she was
kidnapped. Her body was found later
that night in a construction site.
His memory is understandably vague
but the family says he showed police
were the kidnapping happened and
somehow identified a suspect. The
suspect was apparently a labourer
who had recently moved to the city.
His family believe the police used
him to cover up their failure to
catch the real
It now seems Mudasir was not the
killer. Police say they found traces
of the same DNA on the body of the
girl he supposedly murdered on the
other victims, including those
attacked after he was killed. I put
our findings to the regional
If that is the case, if
it has unearthed in such a concrete
way in which we have evidence the
person who was killed, his DNA was
not a match and it's related to the
same perpetrator, which it is, no we
will have a fully fledged enquiry on
that. Those who are responsible for
this extrajudicial killing will not
Last April, two months
after Mudasir was killed another
girl was raped and killed. Another
two months later the same happened
to a seven-year-old. By the time the
body was found last July a clear
pattern I began to emerge. All of
the girls were found in fairly
public places. In graveyards, and
houses under construction, or in
rubbish dumps. The attacker never
tried to bury any of them. Anger in
this city was growing. Politicians
promised to investigate. But the
attacks didn't stop. Another young
girl was assaulted in November. She
is currently in hospital.
In Zainab's school classmates say
they will keep her seat empty.
Parents are being warned to always
pick-up and drop-off their children.
But there is anger in the city that
it has taken so many attacks were
the authorities to really take
action. Why wasn't this level of
effort we are now seeing when the
investigation done before?
honest I don't have a plausible
justification for that. It should
have been from day one the manner in
which we are doing now.
Is that not
the governments responsibility?
So it is a failure?
If I keep
counting the police operations we
were committed to the efforts we
made it will not justify it, unless
we catch him.
The deaths of these young girls is
provoking a national debate in
Pakistan about child abuse. The
priority along with reflection is
the need to catch this killer before
he strikes again.
We're joined by Nadia Jamil -
who's a Pakistani actress
and children's rights campaigner
Good evening to you.
Is there a feeling with Zainab's
horrific rape and murder we have a
moment like that of the Indian bus,
that it will be taken seriously. The
testimony of the audition there was
extraordinary, almost complacent.
There you are. Even know it's not
enough, I feel. Paradigm shift
happens so subtly and maybe this is
it? 2015 when the rapes happened,
hundreds and hundreds of rapes
reported of children who were raped
on camera, at gunpoint, being told
to smile or I will shoot you.
these were used to blackmail the
sisters, families blackmailed. And a
ring was exposed, perpetrators were
exposed. Names were brought out. And
yet, the lawyer who I worked with
over there when I used to go to
rehabilitate the children and work
with the children, he said, there
are 400, 300 that are out there but
there are thousands who come to me.
But in this one city, this city
area, Kasur, we now have eight
attempted killings, seven of which
were successful, one child is in
hospital. And it's taken until now
to have any kind of concerted
effort. Why is that? Is it a feeling
of police, a conservative society, a
of government? Is it a societal
problem that they don't want to
Look... I was 17 when
I started working with children.
Every single day I opened the
newspaper since I was 17 and I am 45
now. You read in the newspaper might
find raped, dead. There are four or
five little blurbs everywhere every
single day. Now suddenly that person
has a name, it is Zainab.
media has been a difference do you
Yes I think now the apathy
which was dormant in our public has
pressured the government, and the
media, to start taking names, start
reporting. And the pressure is on
Is that pressure is also
because of social media being global
so pressure is being heaped on
Pakistani authorities which means
they try harder?
They are petrified.
Politicians are only interested in
power. Unite, the civilians, and the
civic body of the state, has to put
pressure on the politicians to work
and earn a power and we have not
done that yet. Now we are doing it
but the point is, will we maintain
Also do you think the
state has a capacity to solve these
Absolutely not. I don't
think the state has the capacity...
Then how do they do it?
It is the
public who will have to understand
that the state is not equipped, it
is not delegating to the right
people. Prevention, law and order,
look at Kasur, the policemen, I have
seen videos of them laughing and
mocking the parents whose children
were raped. Education, empathy,
these men are desensitised to a
point where it's ridiculous. When
you have your marriage, the legal
age for marriage in Pujara is
currently 16. Four five years, what
is the difference between 12 and 16?
If you are able to have
nonconsensual sex with a
16-year-old, because if you marry
her you can have nonconsensual sex
with her, you can have it with a
12-year-old. And then a
ten-year-old. And then what is a
seven-year-old? So you raise the age
of girls who are supposed to be
married, you do that, it's a multi
pronged operation which needs to be
done. Education, Patriarca, is the
state equipped and well a delegate
to the right people?
Thank you very
There was no sign of a rolled
up Bayeux Tapestry,
which is technically an embroidery,
under Emmanual Macron's arm
when he arrived for his first
UK Presidential visit,
but it was a sweetener,
if a strange one, given
the tapestry's subject matter.
But the real "give" at least
initially seems to be on our side -
£44 million for better border
security at Calais, in return for UK
checks on their side of the channel.
The mood music between the two
countries ahead of Brexit
may be positive but the message
from the visit of the French
President is he is now
the main player in the EU.
Theresa May kicked off the press
conference with a gesture
in a second language.
President Macron,?je suis
tres heureux de vous
accueillir?aujourd'hui pour votre
premiere visite au Royaume-Uni en
So what did we learn
from the May Macron joint
Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban
and our political editor Nick Watt
are here and they've
both picked a highlight.
You had Theresa May reaching out in
French which was more similar to Ted
Heath rather than Tony Blair. Trying
to revive the Entente cordiale
because Theresa May wants to show
that whilst the UK is leaving the EU
it is not leaving Europe, and this
was the response.
I want to make sure
that the Single Market is preserved
because that's very much
at the heart of the European Union.
So the choice is on the British
side, not on my side.
But they can have the no
to the financial services,
if you want access
to the Single Market,
including the financial services,
be my guest, but that means you need
to contribute to the budget
and acknowledge the jurisdiction,
the European jurisdiction.
That was the absolutely
fundamentalist EU position on access
to, for the financial services to
the single market after Brexit. As
the president said, be my guest, you
can have access if you observe the
rules which means paying into the
budget and excepting the
jurisdiction of the European Court
of Justice. If you cannot accept
that, he is saying, then you are
looking at a deal along the lines of
Canada and with Canada there is no
access for services. Important to
say Theresa May did say at the press
conference that she is confident the
UK will be able to get a deal, she
has been calling it a pistol deal,
not an off-the-shelf deal which will
cover goods and services.
Emmanuel Macron was aware of his
audience behind him with the rest of
the EU, from your point as double
editor what was the most important
Everyone expected security
cooperation is a natural for the UK
and we got more details on that, in
and things like that. But people
were saying Britain voted for Brexit
you could forget having the border
at Calais, it will be moved to Dover
and a French reporter pointed out to
the French president that he was one
of those people. He said you were
saying the border was moving so why
have you changed your mind and
signed this treaty today extending
it, putting more money into it and
effectively investing into the
future of the border? He gave some
predictable I suppose you could say
reasons about the humanitarian
aspect of it but listen closely to
what he goes on to say in this clip.
I think this treaty
will very much enable us both to
have a more human approach to these
people. It will be efficient and
also preserve the quality of this
joint treaty. There is also the
economic aspect of this treaty. Like
the Prime Minister said, on both
sides of the border we want to
continue develop our trade, economic
contracts. There is a lot of
business to be done and we have
businesses on both sides so it's to
that effect that we need a very safe
Some people were saying this
is all about the people and then he
uses it to talk about trade and
economic cooperation and his hopes
for deepening economic cooperation
in all sorts of areas. You might say
that's the sort of thing people say
at summits. It doesn't cost
anything. But let's be honest, we
are now going into the seediest
trading aspects of the Brexit talks
and some people in the commission
might have preferred him not to be
explicit about that.
If you talking,
do you think he was off script and
freelancing or wasn't very well
I what is inevitable is
that when you have leader to lead
engagements like this they will talk
about it. This is where some people
in the Foreign Office, on the
British side and in the Department
for exiting the EU as well believe
they can open up some latitude and
differences between the 27 members
and why it's so important from EU
perspective, and he paid some, he
said we only have one negotiator on
this so it shows a sense of all that
So in that sense, on that
reading was at quite a win for
Theresa May? Is that going to
continue as more EU leaders trot
over the next you to see her?
As far as goods are concerned, it
sounds like the French are up for a
deal. There is a lot of pressure on
Macron to get a deal on goods. There
is a lot of thought that you may
find it in the future negotiation
that there is an early deal on goods
but services, the largest part of
the UK economy, that might be a
difference -- different story.
you for joining us.
"He's been lying and he's
been lying for so long."
Woody Allen's adopted daughter
Dylan Farrow spoke on camera to CBS
for the first time today
about the sexual abuse she claims
she suffered at the hands
of her father 25 years ago.
She spoke in detail
of what she says happened
to her when she was seven years old.
Allen has repeatedly
denied the allegation,
most recently today,
but sentiment against the veteran
director has grown in recent months,
with several actors distancing
themselves from him, or donating
their earnings from his films
to sexual harassment groups.
The latest, in the last week,
is Rebecca Hall who starred
in Vicky Christina Barcelona
and in Allen's latest film.
In a moment I'll speak
to the journalist Richard Morgan
and Tess Rafferty,
a writer and activist.
But first here is an extract
from Dylan Farrow's CBS
interview this morning.
What I don't understand is,
how is this crazy story of me
being brainwashed and coached more
believable than what I'm saying
about being sexually
assaulted by my father?
Because your mother was very angry,
so that she would try and coach you,
try and get you to turn
against your father.
Except every step of the way,
my mother has only encouraged me
to tell the truth, she's
never coached me.
I wanted to play a clip from 60
Minutes, an interview
he did at the time,
where he was asked
about that incident.
Are you OK with looking at it?
Isn't it illogical that I'm
going to, at the height of a very
bitter and acrimonious custody
fight, drive up to Connecticut,
where nobody likes me,
I'm in a house full of enemies...
I mean, Mia was so enraged
at me and she had got
all of the kids to be angry at me,
that I'm going to drive
up there and suddenly,
on visitation, pick this moment
in my life to become
a child molester?
It's just incredible.
If I wanted to be a child
molester, I had many
opportunities in the past.
I could have quietly made a custody
settlement with Mia in some way
and done it in the future.
You know, it's so insane.
Earlier I spoke to the journalist
Richard Morgan, and Tess Rafferty,
a writer, comedian and activist,
who created the Take Back
the Workplace march.
These allegations were first made
in 1992, so I started by asking
Tess Rafferty why Dylan Farrow might
have chosen to speak
out again on TV now.
I can't speak to that. I think she
said in her interview that she
thought she needed to say it, she
wanted to take her me too moment,
not just write about it but come
forward, maybe seeing her speaking
about it may make a difference for
them. She expresses, and I can only
imagine the frustration in seeing
these women coming forward and
telling stories and being believed
and men as well coming forward
telling their stories, and people
are still sceptical about her,
people continue to work with Woody
Allen despite her story from which
she has never wavered.
On the other
hand, Woody Allen has never been in
a court of law, these allegations
have been denied. In a sense you can
say that the danger is, Richard
Morgan, that we want victims to come
forward of course but the court of
public opinion can be quite a
The fact that it is
a public opinion is important
because it is important to remember
that Dylan Farrow is not a
celebrity, she isn't famous or
powerful, she is the child of a mess
and powerful people which is a lot
of pressure to live up to -- child
of rich and powerful people. She may
not feel so rich, comfortable or
empowered to speak up, which may be
part of her delay but it is
something to remember about why
people choose to speak up down the
road and not immediately. The idea
that somebody should speak up
immediately after, in the aftermath
of a crisis, is a little bit of an
And she was only
allegations about what happened when
she was only seven.
And I want to
say that she did speak up when she
was seven, she told her mother what
Interesting point you make
about, she's not a famous person,
she is the child of celebrities,
which in a way makes harder for her
to speak up because it is the
adopted father who is in the
limelight, who has had many people
working with him all over the world,
famous actors and actresses, so for
her, in a way, that must have been
Yeah I think it
looked incredibly difficult and I
think she's very brave for what she
did and continuing to put her story
out there when so many people who
readily believe every other story
are discounting hers by continuing
to work with her father.
Morgan, you have gone through the
archive, a very personal archive
that Woody Allen has put in Winston
University, 56 boxes, I think,
you've been through everything. What
were you researching? -- in
He is an
unparalleled artistic genius, there
is no one like him in art alive
today. I wanted to get a sense of
that creative process, how someone
can be at the forefront of the
avant-garde for many decades, to
look into his thinking. It is like
Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks or
surprised by what you found?
was surprised by the persistence of
the imagery. He really obsesses
about very young women, 18 years
old, 19 years old. There is one
point where he writes in notes, this
college student should the maybe 17,
18, 19, but there is no thought
about that to any of the male
characters. He is very fixated
specifically an 18-year-old women
and sometimes younger than that. It
is him challenging... It is the bare
minimum of legality.
And he knows
that the public can view these, he
knows that these boxes can be
This is the weird thing.
His defense against Dylan Farrow's
accusations, what kind of person
would do that? Why would any
rational person do that? Also, why
would any rational person writes
their darkest sexual fantasies over
the decades and submit it to a
library for public perusal?
it on film.
I wonder if you think
that a film like Manhattan could
ever be made now?
Gosh, I hope not.
I certainly think there would be a
lot of scrutiny about it and I hope
it wouldn't be made because you
know, in many states, having sacks
with a woman under 18 is considered
statutory rape. We think of it as...
I don't know if he was in his 40s,
it was a 30-year-old age difference,
the idea of him dating a 17-year-old
girl, not thinking it is wildly
inappropriate and yet it is a crime
in many places.
Whatever comes out
of this TV interview, do you think
Woody Allen's career is now over?
think Woody Allen's career is going
to be a series of people asking
anyone who works with him why they
have worked with Woody Allen.
you for joining us.
And before we go time
for a quick Viewsnight.
Tonight, Masha Gessen,
New Yorker writer and author
of The Future is History:
How Totalitarianism Reclaimed
Russia, who argues that opponents
of Donald Trump are fooling
themselves if they think the Russia
investigation is a magic bullet
to remove the president.
That's all we have time for.
Mark Urban is here tomorrrow.
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Is outsourcing broken? The murder of 8-year-old Zainab in Pakistan, Macron's entente cordial, and Woody Allen's adoptive daughter's abuse claim.