18/01/2018 Newsnight

Will the demise of Carillion be

the crash that brings

about a fundamental

change of culture?

Across the public sector you have

companies that are acting not in the

best interests of consumers of the

services.

I'll asked the Chief

executive of one of the firm's

Bibles if the system is broken. The

murder of six-year-old Zainab in

Pakistan has shocked the world. We

hear from her parents on their fight

for justice.

Is this a watershed moment for

Pakistan? What is Emmanuel Macron's

game?

game? On camera for the first time,

Woody Allen's adopted daughter

accuses him of sexual abuse and he

denies it again.

How is this crazy

story of me being brainwashed and

coached more believable than what

I'm saying about being sexually

assaulted by my father?

We speak to

a writer who has examined the

director's very personal archives.

Good evening.

Will the demise of Carillion be

the crash that brings

about a fundamental

change of culture?

The failure of Carillion has raised

ideological and practical questions

over what is the best and most

economical way to deliver excellence

in everything from schools and HS2,

to hospital services.

Does what's happened

to Carillion demonstrate

that the system is broken?

In order to deal with the immediate

problem, the Business Secretary

today chaired the first meeting

of a government taskforce, involving

business, unions and lenders,

to support firms and workers

affected by the firm's collapse.

How big a deal has

outsourcing become?

Here's our Policy Editor Chris Cook.

This is University College

London Hospital, UCLH,

an NHS hospital where devoted

public employees tend the sick.

But the building

you can see was built

by private builders and it's managed

by private contractors.

It's a parable about how

the British state has

been changed by our

contracting out culture.

The key thing to understand

about outsourcing is the contract.

Outsourcing a service

means someone, somewhere,

must write on a sheet

of

paper what the government wants,

what they are willing to pay and the

consequences if they don't get it.

And if the contractor is a private

company it can have brutal

consequences because you don't

care if they go bust.

That's not credibly true

if you're dealing with for

example an NHS hospital.

The thing is, this

contractual thinking

affects the government's

relationships with all sorts of

institutions, including those

in the public sector.

The last major review of nurses'

pay was five years ago.

In the 1980s the government

found that hospitals

couldn't tell it how much they spend

on one procedure or another.

Some didn't know how many staff

they actually employed.

These days they are set clear

targets and are paid

for the work that they do.

They are treated more

like a contractor than

the hospitals of old.

Jeremy Corbyn's own

borough of Islington

has found success raising

standards in some areas

through contracting out

but it's also bringing some

services back in-house.

15 years ago housing management

in Islington wasn't in a

great place and the council took

the decision with the support of

residents to put it out to an arm's

length organisation.

They were much better housing

managers and housing

management got better but three

or four years ago we took

a pragmatic decision to bring it

back in-house,

the right decision and it saved

a lot of money and has enabled us to

deliver a better service

because we don't have duplication,

departments of communication

and other things.

There are serious difficulties

with outsourcing.

First, contract pricing for years

ahead is hard and you can

end up overpaying or underpaying,

and those errors won't even out.

Outsourcing companies will try to

bank overpayments and walk away from

underpayments.

Secondly, outsourcing can lead

to fractured services.

It's really hard to

get public contracts

that reflect the complexity

of what people have to do.

I think the public are driven

mad by phoning at a

public service provider to be told

that they can't do a particular

thing because it isn't

in the contract and

they have to phone someone else.

What the public want is services

that understand they are

real human beings with a complex

range of needs and issues and can

deal with them.

Contractors sometimes

have to borrow money to

invest, that happens

with the PFI at UCLH.

But given the state can borrow more

cheaply than anybody else, that is a

waste of money. Fourth, we often see

contracts given to companies who

have known 11 track record because

their expertise is unimportant.

Finally, outsourcing often means

workplaces where staff work for many

different employers, so some

employees will find it difficult to

progress to other roles where they

work, adding to the precariousness

of a lot of already hard working

lives.

Phil Bentley is chief executive

of the out sourcing company Mighty,

which holds many

government contracts.

This is his

first interview since

the collapse of Carillion.

Thank you for joining us. Do you

want Carillion's public contracts?

We don't have as many public

contracts as Carillion do with the

government but we have some. I think

the more important thing is, what

can we do to help people who are

worried about their jobs today, the

hard-working people at Carillion? I

think the government is doing the

right thing to put a stop on it and

say, look, let's fund it and

continue looking at where we get

value from the outsourcers and make

sure that the employees working at

Carillion aren't concerned about how

they are going to get paid next

week. Our thoughts are really with

them. But we are an outsourcer, we

do clearing, catering, engineering,

we do essential services that a lot

of clients rely on us for and I

think we'll continue to.

On the

Carillion contracts come if you went

for them, would you go in at a

higher price? Would you suffer the

rat of the taxpayer? Or eight higher

price?

I think the government are

good at getting eight good deal. If

EULA at the difficulties that

Carillion have got into. -- if you

look at the difficulties. They have

difficulties in two areas, big cost

overruns on fixed-price contracts,

which is a risk transfer. Secondly

they have a lot of debt and pension

deficits as well. That's not the

sort of business we are in.

The

problem is, though, often for

outsourcing, companies including

yours and others go in at a very low

price because the government

procurement looks at it and says we

need a low price for the taxpayer

but that may not be the best deal.

I

absolutely agree.

Have you ever done

that?

It isn't just about price. We

often say that we can't offer a

cheaper mop and bucket, we offer a

smarter one, we want to know how

productive it is. That's where

technology can help the industry

provide analysis. The point you made

in the clip about not knowing how

much things cost, we can give our

clients real-time information about

what's really going on in their

premises and they value that.

It is

still an imprecise science. Before

you came, Minety sold off care for

the elderly for £2. -- Mighty.

That

was before my time. The other point

is about risk. If you price the

Aberdeen bypass at 500 million,

that's a fixed-price contract and if

it's going to cost you £1 billion

you are on the hook for that.

You'd

like to take more of the risk?

No, I

think we should be making sure that

the risk we take is appropriate for

the contract and our financial

situation. We are £2.2 billion of

revenue and we have cost, the sliver

of profit is at risk if we don't

price contracts properly.

But maybe

you don't take enough profit to give

yourself that contingency that you

aren't going to get from a

government contract because you are

so desperate, as the others are, do

get the contract, and that's the

problem for outsourcing.

I don't

think it is, actually. We looked

after Lloyds bank, Vodafone, the

cleaning houses of parliament and

Buckingham Palace, these are

profitable contracts and they should

continue to be because we are expert

at what we do, we focus on scale and

we understand risk. I hope we get it

right more often than not.

G4S lost

the contract for looking after

prisoners, the government contract,

you got it, it was a half billion

pound contract. Do you think on that

contract the danger is that you are

going to take too much risk as well?

Obviously G4S had a problem, who's

to say that you won't?

It is Capita,

to be fair. This contract has been

nine months in the gestation. There

have been a lot of conversations

about risk and pricing. We have caps

on the pricing so that if there is a

change, and who knows how many

immigrants we have, what we are

dealing with here. We have two price

risk into the contract.

What was

your profit margin on that contract?

Quite low but appropriate for the

risk.

What was it?

That is

commercially, we aren't going to...

The danger it is too low.

I can tell

you that we have looked over the

contracts in a lot of detail. We

provide services at Heathrow and

there was a synergy between

escorting and Heathrow Airport where

we operate today. You have to look

at the business.

Jeremy Corbyn says

that the £10 living wage.

We are

supportive of it and always have

been.

Thank you for joining us.

The murder and rape of six-year-old

Zainab in Pakistan last week

provoked outrage in the country

and across the world.

Thousands tweeted their

support under the hashtag

"Justice for Zainab."

But now investigators think that DNA

links the man responsible

for the horrific killing to attacks

on seven other young girls

in the same city over

the last two and half years.

There's now a huge manhunt underway.

But why were the authorities

seemingly so indifferent until now?

Secunder Kermani has been

tracing the killings -

and has this report

from the Pakistani city of Kasur.

Once home to one of Pakistan's most

famous poets, Kasur, now a city on

edge. It is the story of the murder,

rape or salt of at least eight young

girls by it seems one man in one

small part of the city. All of the

victims went missing close to their

homes. All of their bodies were

dumped a few hundred metres away.

The eldest was just seven years old.

These are the last images of

six-year-old Zainab alive, being led

away by the hand of an unknown man.

She'd been on her way to a Koran

class but never turned up. Her body

was found in this rubbish dump not

far from her home, five days later.

Zainab's mother proudly shows me her

daughter's schoolwork. Her parents

were in Saudi Arabia on pilgrimage

when she went missing. They arrived

back in Pakistan to bury her.

They believe the police should have

done more when Zainab first

disappeared.

At the Punjab information technology

board, they are helping the police

hunt down the possible suspects.

All

the data from close to Zainab's

house as well as CCTV footage...

They are using mobile phone tracking

data, normally used to catch

terrorists, to identify the killer

and whether he had accomplices.

The

crime scene where this girl lived,

the CCTV footage that emerged is

about half a kilometre away so there

is the issue of transporting the

body back to where it was found. It

isn't easy to carry a body halfway

across the town. Was there somebody

else helping them?

Police have

discovered traces of the same DNA in

a similar cases including Zainab's.

The first is an attempted rape in

June, 2015. Nearly a year later

another girl is attacked but

survives. Last year there was an

attack every few months. Five girls

were killed, one survived.

This man's daughter was the first to

be murdered. The five-year-old

disappeared on his birthday last

January. He still has the teddy bear

she gave him that morning. He is

furious that the killer was never

caught.

Police are now coming the

neighbourhood collecting DNA

samples. They've done over 400 tests

already. But the families of many

victims believe the police didn't

properly investigate the previous

murders when they first happened.

Instead they wrongly accused

innocent men. One of the most

serious allegations we've uncovered

is that police carried out the

extrajudicial killing of one

suspect. Perhaps because they

thought the court would set him

free. Perhaps to put an end to the

rising public anger. Police say this

man was identified by a witness and

killed trying to escape. But we have

been told he was taken into custody

and deliberately shot. We have been

investigating what happened. A month

after the first killing, this man

and his five-year-old cousin were

playing outside when she was

kidnapped. Her body was found later

that night in a construction site.

His memory is understandably vague

but the family says he showed police

were the kidnapping happened and

somehow identified a suspect. The

suspect was apparently a labourer

who had recently moved to the city.

His family believe the police used

him to cover up their failure to

catch the real

It now seems Mudasir was not the

killer. Police say they found traces

of the same DNA on the body of the

girl he supposedly murdered on the

other victims, including those

attacked after he was killed. I put

our findings to the regional

government.

If that is the case, if

it has unearthed in such a concrete

way in which we have evidence the

person who was killed, his DNA was

not a match and it's related to the

same perpetrator, which it is, no we

will have a fully fledged enquiry on

that. Those who are responsible for

this extrajudicial killing will not

be speared.

Last April, two months

after Mudasir was killed another

girl was raped and killed. Another

two months later the same happened

to a seven-year-old. By the time the

body was found last July a clear

pattern I began to emerge. All of

the girls were found in fairly

public places. In graveyards, and

houses under construction, or in

rubbish dumps. The attacker never

tried to bury any of them. Anger in

this city was growing. Politicians

promised to investigate. But the

attacks didn't stop. Another young

girl was assaulted in November. She

is currently in hospital.

In Zainab's school classmates say

they will keep her seat empty.

Parents are being warned to always

pick-up and drop-off their children.

But there is anger in the city that

it has taken so many attacks were

the authorities to really take

action. Why wasn't this level of

effort we are now seeing when the

investigation done before?

To be

honest I don't have a plausible

justification for that. It should

have been from day one the manner in

which we are doing now.

Is that not

the governments responsibility?

It

is.

So it is a failure?

If I keep

counting the police operations we

were committed to the efforts we

made it will not justify it, unless

we catch him.

The deaths of these young girls is

provoking a national debate in

Pakistan about child abuse. The

priority along with reflection is

the need to catch this killer before

he strikes again.

We're joined by Nadia Jamil -

who's a Pakistani actress

and children's rights campaigner

Good evening to you.

Good evening.

Is there a feeling with Zainab's

horrific rape and murder we have a

moment like that of the Indian bus,

that it will be taken seriously. The

testimony of the audition there was

extraordinary, almost complacent.

There you are. Even know it's not

enough, I feel. Paradigm shift

happens so subtly and maybe this is

it? 2015 when the rapes happened,

hundreds and hundreds of rapes

reported of children who were raped

on camera, at gunpoint, being told

to smile or I will shoot you.

And

these were used to blackmail the

families?

Absolutely. Brothers,

sisters, families blackmailed. And a

ring was exposed, perpetrators were

exposed. Names were brought out. And

yet, the lawyer who I worked with

over there when I used to go to

rehabilitate the children and work

with the children, he said, there

are 400, 300 that are out there but

there are thousands who come to me.

But in this one city, this city

area, Kasur, we now have eight

attempted killings, seven of which

were successful, one child is in

hospital. And it's taken until now

to have any kind of concerted

effort. Why is that? Is it a feeling

of police, a conservative society, a

of government? Is it a societal

problem that they don't want to

discuss this?

Look... I was 17 when

I started working with children.

Every single day I opened the

newspaper since I was 17 and I am 45

now. You read in the newspaper might

find raped, dead. There are four or

five little blurbs everywhere every

single day. Now suddenly that person

has a name, it is Zainab.

Social

media has been a difference do you

think?

Yes I think now the apathy

which was dormant in our public has

pressured the government, and the

media, to start taking names, start

reporting. And the pressure is on

them.

Is that pressure is also

because of social media being global

so pressure is being heaped on

Pakistani authorities which means

they try harder?

They are petrified.

Politicians are only interested in

power. Unite, the civilians, and the

civic body of the state, has to put

pressure on the politicians to work

and earn a power and we have not

done that yet. Now we are doing it

but the point is, will we maintain

this pressure?

Also do you think the

state has a capacity to solve these

crimes?

Absolutely not. I don't

think the state has the capacity...

Then how do they do it?

It is the

public who will have to understand

that the state is not equipped, it

is not delegating to the right

people. Prevention, law and order,

look at Kasur, the policemen, I have

seen videos of them laughing and

mocking the parents whose children

were raped. Education, empathy,

these men are desensitised to a

point where it's ridiculous. When

you have your marriage, the legal

age for marriage in Pujara is

currently 16. Four five years, what

is the difference between 12 and 16?

If you are able to have

nonconsensual sex with a

16-year-old, because if you marry

her you can have nonconsensual sex

with her, you can have it with a

12-year-old. And then a

ten-year-old. And then what is a

seven-year-old? So you raise the age

of girls who are supposed to be

married, you do that, it's a multi

pronged operation which needs to be

done. Education, Patriarca, is the

state equipped and well a delegate

to the right people?

Thank you very

much indeed.

There was no sign of a rolled

up Bayeux Tapestry,

which is technically an embroidery,

under Emmanual Macron's arm

when he arrived for his first

UK Presidential visit,

but it was a sweetener,

if a strange one, given

the tapestry's subject matter.

But the real "give" at least

initially seems to be on our side -

£44 million for better border

security at Calais, in return for UK

checks on their side of the channel.

The mood music between the two

countries ahead of Brexit

may be positive but the message

from the visit of the French

President is he is now

the main player in the EU.

Theresa May kicked off the press

conference with a gesture

in a second language.

President Macron,?je suis

tres heureux de vous

accueillir?aujourd'hui pour votre

premiere visite au Royaume-Uni en

tant que?President.

So what did we learn

from the May Macron joint

press conference?

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban

and our political editor Nick Watt

are here and they've

both picked a highlight.

You had Theresa May reaching out in

French which was more similar to Ted

Heath rather than Tony Blair. Trying

to revive the Entente cordiale

because Theresa May wants to show

that whilst the UK is leaving the EU

it is not leaving Europe, and this

was the response.

TRANSLATION:

I want to make sure

that the Single Market is preserved

because that's very much

at the heart of the European Union.

So the choice is on the British

side, not on my side.

But they can have the no

differentiated access

to the financial services,

if you want access

to the Single Market,

including the financial services,

be my guest, but that means you need

to contribute to the budget

and acknowledge the jurisdiction,

the European jurisdiction.

That was the absolutely

fundamentalist EU position on access

to, for the financial services to

the single market after Brexit. As

the president said, be my guest, you

can have access if you observe the

rules which means paying into the

budget and excepting the

jurisdiction of the European Court

of Justice. If you cannot accept

that, he is saying, then you are

looking at a deal along the lines of

Canada and with Canada there is no

access for services. Important to

say Theresa May did say at the press

conference that she is confident the

UK will be able to get a deal, she

has been calling it a pistol deal,

not an off-the-shelf deal which will

cover goods and services.

And

Emmanuel Macron was aware of his

audience behind him with the rest of

the EU, from your point as double

editor what was the most important

thing?

Everyone expected security

cooperation is a natural for the UK

and we got more details on that, in

and things like that. But people

were saying Britain voted for Brexit

you could forget having the border

at Calais, it will be moved to Dover

and a French reporter pointed out to

the French president that he was one

of those people. He said you were

saying the border was moving so why

have you changed your mind and

signed this treaty today extending

it, putting more money into it and

effectively investing into the

future of the border? He gave some

predictable I suppose you could say

reasons about the humanitarian

aspect of it but listen closely to

what he goes on to say in this clip.

TRANSLATION:

I think this treaty

will very much enable us both to

have a more human approach to these

people. It will be efficient and

also preserve the quality of this

joint treaty. There is also the

economic aspect of this treaty. Like

the Prime Minister said, on both

sides of the border we want to

continue develop our trade, economic

contracts. There is a lot of

business to be done and we have

businesses on both sides so it's to

that effect that we need a very safe

border.

Some people were saying this

is all about the people and then he

uses it to talk about trade and

economic cooperation and his hopes

for deepening economic cooperation

in all sorts of areas. You might say

that's the sort of thing people say

at summits. It doesn't cost

anything. But let's be honest, we

are now going into the seediest

trading aspects of the Brexit talks

and some people in the commission

might have preferred him not to be

explicit about that.

If you talking,

do you think he was off script and

freelancing or wasn't very well

worked out?

I what is inevitable is

that when you have leader to lead

engagements like this they will talk

about it. This is where some people

in the Foreign Office, on the

British side and in the Department

for exiting the EU as well believe

they can open up some latitude and

differences between the 27 members

and why it's so important from EU

perspective, and he paid some, he

said we only have one negotiator on

this so it shows a sense of all that

is.

So in that sense, on that

reading was at quite a win for

Theresa May? Is that going to

continue as more EU leaders trot

over the next you to see her?

As far as goods are concerned, it

sounds like the French are up for a

deal. There is a lot of pressure on

Macron to get a deal on goods. There

is a lot of thought that you may

find it in the future negotiation

that there is an early deal on goods

but services, the largest part of

the UK economy, that might be a

difference -- different story.

Thank

you for joining us.

"He's been lying and he's

been lying for so long."

Woody Allen's adopted daughter

Dylan Farrow spoke on camera to CBS

for the first time today

about the sexual abuse she claims

she suffered at the hands

of her father 25 years ago.

She spoke in detail

of what she says happened

to her when she was seven years old.

Allen has repeatedly

denied the allegation,

most recently today,

but sentiment against the veteran

director has grown in recent months,

with several actors distancing

themselves from him, or donating

their earnings from his films

to sexual harassment groups.

The latest, in the last week,

is Rebecca Hall who starred

in Vicky Christina Barcelona

and in Allen's latest film.

In a moment I'll speak

to the journalist Richard Morgan

and Tess Rafferty,

a writer and activist.

But first here is an extract

from Dylan Farrow's CBS

interview this morning.

What I don't understand is,

how is this crazy story of me

being brainwashed and coached more

believable than what I'm saying

about being sexually

assaulted by my father?

Because your mother was very angry,

so that she would try and coach you,

try and get you to turn

against your father.

Except every step of the way,

my mother has only encouraged me

to tell the truth, she's

never coached me.

I wanted to play a clip from 60

Minutes, an interview

he did at the time,

where he was asked

about that incident.

Are you OK with looking at it?

You OK?

Isn't it illogical that I'm

going to, at the height of a very

bitter and acrimonious custody

fight, drive up to Connecticut,

where nobody likes me,

I'm in a house full of enemies...

I mean, Mia was so enraged

at me and she had got

all of the kids to be angry at me,

that I'm going to drive

up there and suddenly,

on visitation, pick this moment

in my life to become

a child molester?

It's just incredible.

If I wanted to be a child

molester, I had many

opportunities in the past.

I could have quietly made a custody

settlement with Mia in some way

and done it in the future.

You know, it's so insane.

Earlier I spoke to the journalist

Richard Morgan, and Tess Rafferty,

a writer, comedian and activist,

who created the Take Back

the Workplace march.

These allegations were first made

in 1992, so I started by asking

Tess Rafferty why Dylan Farrow might

have chosen to speak

out again on TV now.

I can't speak to that. I think she

said in her interview that she

thought she needed to say it, she

wanted to take her me too moment,

not just write about it but come

forward, maybe seeing her speaking

about it may make a difference for

them. She expresses, and I can only

imagine the frustration in seeing

these women coming forward and

telling stories and being believed

and men as well coming forward

telling their stories, and people

are still sceptical about her,

people continue to work with Woody

Allen despite her story from which

she has never wavered.

On the other

hand, Woody Allen has never been in

a court of law, these allegations

have been denied. In a sense you can

say that the danger is, Richard

Morgan, that we want victims to come

forward of course but the court of

public opinion can be quite a

dangerous thing.

The fact that it is

a public opinion is important

because it is important to remember

that Dylan Farrow is not a

celebrity, she isn't famous or

powerful, she is the child of a mess

and powerful people which is a lot

of pressure to live up to -- child

of rich and powerful people. She may

not feel so rich, comfortable or

empowered to speak up, which may be

part of her delay but it is

something to remember about why

people choose to speak up down the

road and not immediately. The idea

that somebody should speak up

immediately after, in the aftermath

of a crisis, is a little bit of an

unfair expectation.

And she was only

seven.

Right.

She's making

allegations about what happened when

she was only seven.

And I want to

say that she did speak up when she

was seven, she told her mother what

happened.

Interesting point you make

about, she's not a famous person,

she is the child of celebrities,

which in a way makes harder for her

to speak up because it is the

adopted father who is in the

limelight, who has had many people

working with him all over the world,

famous actors and actresses, so for

her, in a way, that must have been

quite difficult.

Yeah I think it

looked incredibly difficult and I

think she's very brave for what she

did and continuing to put her story

out there when so many people who

readily believe every other story

are discounting hers by continuing

to work with her father.

Richard

Morgan, you have gone through the

archive, a very personal archive

that Woody Allen has put in Winston

University, 56 boxes, I think,

you've been through everything. What

were you researching? -- in

Princeton University.

He is an

unparalleled artistic genius, there

is no one like him in art alive

today. I wanted to get a sense of

that creative process, how someone

can be at the forefront of the

avant-garde for many decades, to

look into his thinking. It is like

Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks or

Shakespeare's diary.

You were

surprised by what you found?

Yeah, I

was surprised by the persistence of

the imagery.

the imagery. He really obsesses

about very young women, 18 years

old, 19 years old. There is one

point where he writes in notes, this

college student should the maybe 17,

18, 19, but there is no thought

about that to any of the male

characters. He is very fixated

specifically an 18-year-old women

and sometimes younger than that. It

is him challenging... It is the bare

minimum of legality.

And he knows

that the public can view these, he

knows that these boxes can be

examined?

This is the weird thing.

His defense against Dylan Farrow's

accusations, what kind of person

would do that? Why would any

rational person do that? Also, why

would any rational person writes

their darkest sexual fantasies over

the decades and submit it to a

library for public perusal?

Or put

it on film.

I wonder if you think

that a film like Manhattan could

ever be made now?

Gosh, I hope not.

I certainly think there would be a

lot of scrutiny about it and I hope

it wouldn't be made because you

know, in many states, having sacks

with a woman under 18 is considered

statutory

statutory rape. We think of it as...

I don't know if he was in his 40s,

it was a 30-year-old age difference,

the idea of him dating a 17-year-old

girl, not thinking it is wildly

inappropriate and yet it is a crime

in many places.

Whatever comes out

of this TV interview, do you think

Woody Allen's career is now over?

I

think Woody Allen's career is going

to be a series of people asking

anyone who works with him why they

have worked with Woody Allen.

Thank

you for joining us.

And before we go time

for a quick Viewsnight.

Tonight, Masha Gessen,

New Yorker writer and author

of The Future is History:

How Totalitarianism Reclaimed

Russia, who argues that opponents

of Donald Trump are fooling

themselves if they think the Russia

investigation is a magic bullet

to remove the president.

That's all we have time for.

Mark Urban is here tomorrrow.

Goodnight.