26/01/2018 Newsnight


26/01/2018

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Of course he's going to reoffend,

but I think the one thing that's

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worrying me and possibly other

people,

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is the fact that he

knows where we lived.

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Tonight, one of the women fighting

to keep the black cab rapist in jail

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talks at length for the first time

about her own ordeal

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and her determination to keep

John Worboys behind bars.

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Also tonight, brace yourselves

for Brexit, Round 2,

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starting next week.

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What are the big battlegrounds?

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The EU 27 showed impressive unity

throughout the first phase of

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negotiations.

That, for months,

people in Brussels have been telling

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me that they're not quite so

confident it will be so united in

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phase two.

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And, the beers and the barbies

are out for Australia Day.

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But is it time to end celebrations

of the day the British

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arrived and the subjugation

of the indiginous people began?

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Good evening.

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There was some relief tonight

for the more than 100 victims

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of rapist John Worboys.

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His imminent release from jail

has been put on hold.

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Two of the women that he raped today

successfully obtained a High Court

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order, which means the man known

as "the black cab rapist"

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is staying in prison, for now.

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Worboys, who attacked his passengers

after plying them with drink he'd

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spiked, was sentenced in 2009

to eight years in jail

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plus an indeterminate sentence,

to be decided by the parole board.

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That trial involved

just 12 of his victims,

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because the then-Director

of Public Prosecutions decided

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that the evidence of those 12

was the best way to secure

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a lengthy sentence.

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Tonight, we speak to one of the two

women who won today's ruling.

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She was raped on the 6th of May

2003, but the police

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dismissed her story.

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It was only five years later,

when the Met appealed for victims

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to come forward following many more

rapes, that she was believed.

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After Worboys went to jail,

the woman, who wishes

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to remain anonymous,

successfully sued the police

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for violation of her human rights

in the initial investigation,

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a decision they are

still contesting.

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I spoke to her today,

before the new Worboys ruling,

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about her own 15-year ordeal.

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What happened to you that night?

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I remember going out, meeting

friends, having a meal, going on to

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a couple of pubs and bars with them.

My group of friends hailed a cab for

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me. One common particular, was

talking to him for a good five, ten

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minutes while I was saying goodbye

to everybody. I got in the cab. Next

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memory is waking up in hospital.

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Feeling very disorientated, very

distressed, knowing, instantly, that

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something had happened.

What had

happened when you got into the cab?

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Did he engage in conversation

straightaway?

I mean, he was very,

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very chatty, like most black cab

drivers are. Didn't find that

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threatening, in any way, because he

seems like a normal cab driver. And

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he offered me a drink. Which I said,

first of all, I said, I didn't want

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the drink. But then, because he gave

me the drink, I took a sip of it.

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But it was not a nice drink. And

because I'd gone home at that point

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because I was consciously not

drinking too much because I had to

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get on with my baby in the morning.

And it was a very strong this year,

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sort of like an orange lick

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. We went over a speed bump. But he

gave me another one. It was one of

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those situations and failures, beat

myself up over it, thinking, why did

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I accept that drink? But it was a

situation where you just think, just

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drink it and you're going to get

home and that's fine. And then he

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pulled over in a side road. And I

remember him getting in the back of

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the cab with me and offering me a

cigarette. And then that's the only

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memory I have until waking up the

next morning.

But, as far as a

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next morning.

But, as far as a rape

was concerned, evidentially, what

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was there?

Well, I was told by the

police there was no drugs in my

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system. And there was, obviously, no

DNA evidence.

Because he was using a

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condom.

Yes. Which they said at the

time was what they were expecting. I

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was very shocked at them saying

there was no drugs or anything in my

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system. Because I knew there was. I

knew, as soon as I had woken up,

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that I had been drugged.

And there

was evidence he had tried to use a

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lubricant or something?

Yeah.

And

that was another reason you were

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sure. What impact did that have on

you at the time?

The thought that

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you've gone to all that trouble of

going to the police, for them to say

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that a black cab driver, which they

did say to me, a black cab driver

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wouldn't do it, and when they phoned

to say they were closing the file, I

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was quite hysterical about it.

Because I said, "You've let him get

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away with almost the perfect crime".

He will reoffend.

How does it all

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really engage again?

There was an

appeal on the knees. -- an appeal on

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the means. I thought, I can't go

through this again, can't be

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disbelieved and made to feel that

I've made it all up all over again,

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can't do it. I can't get involved in

any of this. So, I did delay

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probably for a day or so. But, then,

I just thought, can't not do

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anything. I can't... Go forward.

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It's just so wrong, I have to do

what I can to help with this appeal.

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So, I phoned them, the helpline

number, the number they'd given.

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And, actually, the lady I spoke to,

when I gave my details, she said my

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deals -- details had already been

flagged on the system and they were

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going to be contacting you.

You were

so sure that your case was one of

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the cases that would go to court, so

what happened?

They explained it to

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me. That they couldn't... Convict

him of every single one. Because,

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obviously, taking 83 victims into

court, it would tie it up in court

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for years. It would confuse the

jury. It would just be horrendous to

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try and do that.

What was it like

for you, then, during the trial?

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I... I just tried to ignore it as

much as possible. It was too painful

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at the time. Hearing what had

happened to the other women was

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very, very hard for me. I did feel,

that point, very guilty, because I

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felt somehow responsible for what

they went through.

But that's

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because the police didn't believe

you in 2003.

The. I always felt that

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had they believed me, they could

have stopped him. -- yes. One of the

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hardest days that I've had, through

all of this, was when we went, when

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I had to go and identify him and sit

in a room with 20 or 30 other

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victims. And feeling that they were

all there because I wasn't believed.

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That was one of the worst things

I've ever had to experience will

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stop looking at their faces and

thinking, "You shouldn't be here"

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stop looking at their faces and

thinking, "You shouldn't be here".

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How long do you think they would put

him away for?

I was under the

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impression he was going away for

life. I never thought he'd be coming

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out.

Where were you when you heard

that Worboys was to be released?

I

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was at home cooking my children's

dinner. And it was on the news.

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I'll achieve felt that someone had

kicked me in the stomach. -- I

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literally felt. And to hear that

through the media, knowing what we'd

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all gone through just felt like we

were being let down by the system

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again. It does feel like this

system, as a whole, is more... Tries

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to protect Worboys more than his

victims.

Has anyone called you to

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offer support from, you know, the

police services?

No. As yet, nobody

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has been in contact with me. But

then I've also heard reports that

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when they say "Victims", that only

referring to the 12 victims that

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went to court. -- that they are

only. And the other 80 Quill 70 odd

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victims, possibly more, that went to

the police, that were linked to this

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case, but didn't have their cases

taken to court, not classed as

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victims. We are alleged victims, so

we have no rights. We have no voice.

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As far as I can see at the moment,

Worboys could come out of prison

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tomorrow and live in the house next

door to me and there was nothing I

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can do to prevent it.

Are you

fearful?

Of course I am. I am very

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worried about this, because I know

for a fact he will reoffend.

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Somebody cannot live their life for

so many years committing these sorts

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of crimes and getting away with it

for such a long period, refused to

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accept they've done anything wrong

and then all of a sudden turn over a

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new leaf and be a model citizen. Of

course he's going to reoffend. But I

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think the one thing that is worrying

me, and possibly other people, is

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the fact that he knows where we

lived. He did what he needed to do.

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He took the keys and took you and

dumped you on your bed or your sofa.

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He was inside their homes. He knows

where they live. He had a notebook

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with all our names and addresses in

them.

So how will you stop it?

Well,

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that's why we are pushing for the

judiciary review and hoping that

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they will reveal the reasons why

they have decided that he is safe to

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come out. And then hopefully we can

challenge that because it just

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doesn't make sense that somebody

could be safe after being deemed

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just over a year ago or unsafe and

open prison. That doesn't make sense

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to me at all.

That was a parole

board decision?

That was a parole

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board decision.

What do you think

that parole board?

I don't know what

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they base that on, at the moment.

And that's what we need to know. --

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what they based that on. How they

came to that conclusion. Because it

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doesn't make sense to anybody. It's

really important that we do this

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crowdfunding.

You are crowdfunding

for case, to keep him behind bars.

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What impact does that have on you?

Absolutely. My main motivation at

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the moment is that this is a very

dangerous criminal. I have a

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daughter and I need to protect my

daughter. And everybody else's

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daughter and everybody else's

mothers and sisters. Women need to

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be protected from this man and

that's why I'm doing this.

For now,

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John Worboys remains in prison.

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Two contrasting headlines

this morning concerning

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the Defence Secretary.

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On the Telegraph front page,

Gavin Williamson warned that

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Russia is ready to kill us

by the thousands.

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In the Mail, Mr Williamson

was confessing to an office

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romance and how it nearly

destroyed his marriage.

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Connected?

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Our political editor

Nick Watt is here.

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What are you hearing? Our ambitious

Defence Secretary, as you say, is in

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the news again. That story in the

Daily Mail appears to have appeared

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after he was asking questions by the

Guardian about his private life.

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There is a feeling in Whitehall that

his account of what happened about

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15 years ago is plausible. And it is

believed it is truthful. But I have

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to say that eyebrows are being

raised in Whitehall and in the

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national security world about that

article, that interview in the Daily

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Telegraph, which led to that

headlined "Russia is ready to kill

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us by the thousands". He said two

things about Russia, one is that

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they will target the gas and

electricity interconnect connectors

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that link the UK to continental

Europe. And that they are

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photographing power stations,

electricity stations. I'm hearing

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language like this from the national

security world. The Secretary of

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State for Defence is playing fast

and loose with the national

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security, to distract from his

private life.

Downing Street, do

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they know?

I think this was

something that was known in the MoD

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that I am not sure other areas of

Whitehall knew. I spoke to a good

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friend of Gavin Williams who says

that he believes the Secretary of

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State has got pretty close to the

line of what you should disclose,

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but hasn't actually crossed that

line. Defence sources, what they are

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saying is that none of this

information was classified

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intelligence. On those undersea

interconnect is, the Secretary of

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State was speculating. But, again,

from the national security world,

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they are saying that talking about

Russia photographing electricity

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power stations, they believe that is

very, very sensitive information.

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Safe in his job?

For the moment. He

is a former Chief Whip. What he

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knows is that if you are going to

give an account about your private

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life, it needs to be plausible and

it needs to be truthful. He knows

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that. So I am sure he will have sure

that is the case.

Thanks.

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The art of letter

writing is not dead.

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In the last half hour,

business leaders have received

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an epistle from three Cabinet

ministers, Hammond, Davis and Clark,

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reaffirming their vision

for the next stage of Brexit.

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It's a detailed letter.

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Here's a highlight, and I quote:

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"We will then finalise the text

of the withdrawal agreement to give

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the implementation period legal form

at the same time as we build out

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with the EU the framework

for our deep and special future

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partnership".

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Stirring stuff.

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That's their version.

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Let's see if our Diplomatic Editor

Mark Urban can make next week's

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phase two negotiations sound just

a little bit more exciting.

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What happens first?

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Well, the Barnier-Davis talks are in

abeyance.

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Instead, right now, in order

to avoid a cliff edge,

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the UK falling out of the EU

in March 2019, without a deal,

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they have to agree

a transition phase.

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And they aim to do it very quickly,

over the next few weeks.

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It's urgent and it is a high

priority on the agenda.

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And we're hoping that that's

going to be negotiated

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in the next couple of months.

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It's not entirely straightforward.

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I think we understand

that the terms on offer are...

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It will be basically

a continuation of the status quo.

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Although, of course,

the UK would have left the EU,

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and therefore won't have a vote

or seat at the table

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in future decisions.

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To avoid the fabled cliff edge

and secure a transition,

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Theresa May's Florence speech

already conceded many principles.

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Her Brexiteer MPs may not like it,

but the extension of current EU

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rules, ongoing budget contributions

and loss of voting rights

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were all signalled back in November.

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Now EU states also seem

to be moving, yielding

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some important ground on the future

trading relationship.

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Michel Barnier insisted,

even last month, that UK had

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a binary choice between a single

market Norway deal or a Canada-type

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trade deal, a point he rammed home

with his graphic about

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Britain's Brexit choices.

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But the Canada comparison

isn't really that useful,

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and is already being undermined

by people like Emmanuel Macron,

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who is saying, quite clearly,

that Britain could get something far

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more ambitious than Canada's

free-trade treaty.

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You will have your own solution.

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And my willigness...

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There will be a bespoke special

solution for Britain?

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Sure, but I take

these two references.

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Because this "special way" should be

consistent with the preservation

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of the single market

and our collective interest.

0:17:290:17:37

But if the EU is ready to concede

a sliding scale of access,

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dependent on how closely the UK

alliance with its rules,

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it's also used tough language

in its guidelines about

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a level playing field.

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Under these terms, it'll

try to close off the possibility

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of a deregulated Britain gaining

a competitive advantage.

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What some Brexiteers

call a Singapore model.

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Singapore has a very

authoritarian regime.

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And a totally different

conditions for the economy.

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But I believe United Kingdom

is competitive, due to the fact

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that it has the best

universities in Europe.

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That London will remain the most

important financial hub,

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not only in Europe, but worldwide.

0:18:250:18:32

The EU 27 showed impressive unity

throughout the first

0:18:320:18:35

phase of negotiations.

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But for months, people in Brussels

have been telling me

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that they're not quite so confident

it'll be so united in phase two.

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Some countries are far

more closely integrated

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with the UK economy, after all.

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And some will have to pay

more into the EU budget,

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as British contributions taper.

0:18:540:18:58

UK diplomats might find

gaps they can exploit.

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They're going to be negotiating

a new financial agreement

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for the future in 2019.

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And without the British

contributions for the future,

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the net contributors and the net

recipient states may have

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different interests, there.

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And amid the snow-covered slopes

of Davos, some European leaders

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appear to be going off piste,

suggesting full single market

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access could be available,

if the UK pays enough.

0:19:220:19:28

There has to be some

price for full access.

0:19:280:19:33

And to what extent this access

is going to be available

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has to be made dependent

on some other...

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Contributions.

0:19:450:19:46

Potentially including this

financial contribution.

0:19:460:19:52

Perhaps the biggest change in Brexit

atmospherics, since the phase one

0:19:520:19:59

Perhaps the biggest change in Brexit

atmospherics since the phase one

0:19:590:20:02

agreement last month, is that

European leaders taking Britain's

0:20:020:20:04

concessions of the Irish border

as evidence that Downing Street

0:20:040:20:07

is pursuing a softer way to Brexit,

are starting to discuss

0:20:070:20:10

the mutual interests

in minimising trade destruction.

0:20:100:20:18

the mutual interests

in minimising trade disruption.

0:20:180:20:20

The Dutch, for example,

talking about wanting to minimise

0:20:200:20:23

friction in their trade.

0:20:230:20:24

The initial reaction that

the United Kingdom must be punished

0:20:240:20:26

is now changing and people

begin to understand

0:20:260:20:28

that the only reasonable solution

is to find an arrangement

0:20:280:20:32

that is the best

possible for both sides.

0:20:320:20:37

That takes into account

the interests and the

0:20:370:20:41

needs of both sides.

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And the hope that the view

of the Dutch Prime Minister

0:20:480:20:50

will be the common view

in the European Union.

0:20:500:20:53

The Dutch Prime Minister

is in the same situation

0:20:530:20:55

as the German Chancellor.

0:20:550:20:56

For the German economy,

it is extremely, extremely important

0:20:560:20:59

not to damage the economic relation.

0:20:590:21:04

Of course, what European leaders

want are further signs that the UK

0:21:040:21:08

intends to be very closely aligned

on single market and customs rules.

0:21:080:21:14

That possibility delights them.

0:21:140:21:20

And one former commission Mandarin

told me it could lead to speedy

0:21:200:21:23

trade agreements including on access

for the financial sector.

0:21:230:21:26

The only problem in that case,

he said, was, "I don't know how

0:21:260:21:29

you could conclude meaningful trade

deals of your own".

0:21:290:21:34

Negotiators in Brussels will burn

the midnight oil in coming months.

0:21:340:21:37

But key choices, reconciling

the global trading vision of Brexit

0:21:370:21:42

with the mutual interest

in keeping trade desruption

0:21:420:21:49

with the mutual interest

in keeping trade disruption

0:21:490:21:51

to a minimum, must be taken

by Theresa May's government.

0:21:510:21:54

And soon.

0:21:540:22:01

Every year, on the 26th of January,

millions of Aussies take

0:22:010:22:04

to the pubs, streets and beaches

to commemorate Australia Day.

0:22:040:22:12

Arms!

0:22:160:22:17

Arms!

0:22:170:22:18

On Australia Day, we come together

and celebrate our nation

0:22:180:22:20

and all of our history.

0:22:200:22:23

ALL:

Happy Australia Day!

0:22:230:22:26

They drink beer, enjoy barbies

and take pride in their country,

0:22:260:22:29

its culture and its achievements.

0:22:290:22:32

It's to celebrate everything that's

good about Australia,

0:22:320:22:34

the weather, family, friends.

0:22:340:22:37

It's safe.

0:22:370:22:38

It's fun, it's Australia.

0:22:380:22:40

It's what we do.

0:22:400:22:44

But, of late, Australia Day

elicits just as much,

0:22:440:22:47

if not more, protest

and controversy than celebration.

0:22:470:22:51

It's a day that's,

you know, steeped in blood.

0:22:510:22:55

It reminds me of violent

dispossession of my people.

0:22:550:22:59

Why are we having this on this date,

0:22:590:23:01

if this is the date

that is upsetting so many people?

0:23:010:23:04

The date is a painful one,

for indigenous Australians,

0:23:040:23:08

because it marks the first arrival

of British settlers in 1788

0:23:080:23:11

and recalls past and present

traumas of repression,

0:23:110:23:13

loss, exclusion and inequality.

0:23:130:23:19

Aboriginal people were only

legally counted as being

0:23:190:23:22

Australian as late as 1967.

0:23:220:23:27

Some think the day should

be abolished entirely.

0:23:270:23:30

Others argue for

a change in the date.

0:23:300:23:34

The view of the current

government is that by changing

0:23:340:23:37

the date of Australia Day,

you're just denying history,

0:23:370:23:39

but the bigger question is,

who decides whose history

0:23:390:23:43

should be celebrated?

0:23:430:23:48

I am joined now by Douglas Murray

who has written about this issue

0:23:480:23:51

in Australia in his latest book

"The Strange Death of Europe"

0:23:510:23:54

and from Melbourne by activist

and actor Nakkiah Lui,

0:23:540:23:57

a young leader within

the Australian Aboriginal community.

0:23:570:24:02

Good evening to you both. Douglas,

is it not time to change Australia

0:24:020:24:09

Day?

A lot of Australians will

wonder why and they will see it as

0:24:090:24:14

an assault on the foundation of

their nation and indeed it is. There

0:24:140:24:19

are all sorts of arguments to be had

about history. Nobody would or could

0:24:190:24:24

deny the mistreatment and

maltreatment of the aboriginal

0:24:240:24:26

peoples. But the problem is, as so

often, the question is whether you

0:24:260:24:33

are dealing with critics or enemies.

A lot of Australians will have heard

0:24:330:24:38

of organised protests on their

holiday talking not just about the

0:24:380:24:42

invasion of Australia, but saying F

Australia, I hope it burns to the

0:24:420:24:49

ground. That is not the language of

the critic of a country, that is

0:24:490:24:53

somebody talking as an enemy.

Is

that not somebody who is perhaps in

0:24:530:24:58

the end so frustrated as it were by

the denial?

But Australia has not

0:24:580:25:08

got denial about this. Australia has

had national sorry days, National

0:25:080:25:13

signings of books to say sorry, all

sorts of things. Australia has not

0:25:130:25:18

ignored is passed.

What do you say

to that, Australia has not ignored

0:25:180:25:24

its past?

I think that Douglas is

talking on false premises. A study

0:25:240:25:30

recently found that the majority of

Australians would not care what day

0:25:300:25:37

it was on. If Australia Day is on

the day that is dividing us, I think

0:25:370:25:41

then we need to examine the values

that we are celebrating. And you say

0:25:410:25:46

there is no denial of the history of

the past in Australia. Well, there

0:25:460:25:53

is, and that is one of the things

why we are protesting. We are having

0:25:530:25:59

our national celebrations on a day,

January the 26th, which represents

0:25:590:26:04

the day Captain could put that union

Jack in the ground in Australia and

0:26:040:26:09

declared sovereign which began

colonisation, which resulted in

0:26:090:26:14

genocide. Over 500 massacres on the

east coast of Australia alone. Up to

0:26:140:26:19

50% of the aboriginal population

wiped out and that continued into

0:26:190:26:25

9067 when my parents were not

considered Australian citizens.

0:26:250:26:28

There is denial when you have your

national day on a day that

0:26:280:26:33

represents such brutality.

Is there

not a situation where you can say,

0:26:330:26:38

we live in a new, modern Australia,

modern Australia made up of all

0:26:380:26:43

sorts of peoples and we should

create something new?

Australia has

0:26:430:26:48

been having this discussion for

decades.

But there is a new

0:26:480:26:54

generation coming up.

First of all

what is striking is the tone of

0:26:540:26:58

attack on Australia, the tone of

burn this country to the ground.

We

0:26:580:27:01

could agree... That is incorrect. It

is not about that, it is about

0:27:010:27:09

changing the date.

But you do not

deny that was said?

I want to come

0:27:090:27:15

back to you. But, Douglas, by you

highlighting that, that is a very

0:27:150:27:22

political playing card to get your

point across. This organisation and

0:27:220:27:30

the organiser has said her comments

were taken out of context.

I want to

0:27:300:27:38

ask you, Nakkiah, about this

historical hurt. How deep does go

0:27:380:27:43

for your generation?

It continues on

to this day and that is the issue.

0:27:430:27:50

Colonisation has made aboriginal

people are very vulnerable.

Did you

0:27:500:27:53

feel vulnerable growing up? Did it

affect you on a daily basis?

Our

0:27:530:27:59

life expectancy is 20 years below

that of a non-aboriginal Australian.

0:27:590:28:03

Incarceration rates are much higher,

the majority of aboriginal people

0:28:030:28:07

live in poverty. Yes, it did affect

me, I lived in a housing commission

0:28:070:28:12

home. My grandparents were afraid of

my parents being stolen and the

0:28:120:28:20

children being taken away.

That

continued through three generations.

0:28:200:28:25

Douglas, you are in favour of the

first nation in a country having a

0:28:250:28:32

special status. For example, in the

UK we want to celebrate that here.

0:28:320:28:36

If the nation is the first nation

and the indigenous nation, surely it

0:28:360:28:42

should have a special celebration?

Surely, they do and it should

0:28:420:28:47

happen. No, a primary one, they are

the first people of that country.

A

0:28:470:28:53

very similar thing is happening in

America and Canada. This movement is

0:28:530:28:58

what Australia is part of as well.

Movements as everywhere the

0:28:580:29:03

Europeans went they have colonised

and destroyed. We could have a

0:29:030:29:07

sensible weighing up of the

discussion without saying the

0:29:070:29:10

Europeans are colonists and they

have done genocide and they are

0:29:100:29:14

still guilty.

But they were

colonists, that is a fact.

The

0:29:140:29:20

question keeps on coming back about

historical guilt and the appropriate

0:29:200:29:24

weighing up of history. We have not

had that in the past in Australia.

0:29:240:29:29

We do not get it with the bird

Australia stuff down either.

Thank

0:29:290:29:32

you both very much.

0:29:320:29:34

Thank you both very much.

0:29:340:29:36

Finally, last night,

in a report on the controversial

0:29:360:29:38

Presidents Club Dinner,

we said that the Labour

0:29:380:29:40

peer Lord Mendelsohn,

spelt Mend-e-l-s-o-h-n,

0:29:400:29:43

had been asked to step back

from the front bench,

0:29:430:29:45

having attended the dinner.

0:29:450:29:48

Unfortunately, the BBC's automatic

subtitling system wrote

0:29:480:29:51

the name as Lord Mandelson,

the former Labour Cabinet minister.

0:29:510:29:53

Peter Mandelson was not at the event

and we apologise for the error.

0:29:530:30:01

That's all for this evening.

0:30:010:30:03

But before we go, German filmmaker

Florian Nick spent six weeks

0:30:030:30:06

travelling 3,400 miles

in the western provinces of Canada,

0:30:060:30:09

capturing over 54,000 photos

to assemble a series

0:30:090:30:11

of time-lapse images.

0:30:110:30:13

We leave you with

the stunning results.

0:30:130:30:14

Good night.

0:30:140:30:21

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