05/02/2018 Newsnight


05/02/2018

With Emily Maitlis. A senior Tory says the Brexiteers should be removed from the party. Plus on the centenary of the vote for women, what has the UK got right and wrong?


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Crunch time for the Conservatives, a

leading Tory calls on Theresa May to

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stand up to a hardline Brexiteers

and throw them out of the party.

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They're not the Tory party that

I joined 40 years ago and it's

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about time Theresa stood up to them

and slung them out.

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Because they've taken down Major,

they took down Cameron,

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two great leaders, neither

of whom stood up to them.

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All this on the day Michel Barnier

has come to Downing Street to warn

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us at the time has come to choose.

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Without the customs union

and outside the Single Market,

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barriers to trade and goods

and services are unavoidable.

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Not avoidable? We will ask Lord

Lamont if Theresa May's vision for

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Brexit is getting clearer or

cloudier. Also tonight.

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Look how far women have come

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in the last one million years.

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Tonight, on the eve

of the suffragette

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centenary, we ask our panel

what we got right, what we got wrong

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and where we're heading now.

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Good evening.

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Suddenly, everyone's stopped

mincing their words.

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As the government clarified

there would be NO customs

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union post-Brexit.

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,Michel Barnier, the chief EU

negotiator arriving in town,

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said that would cause unavoidable

barriers to trade.

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He called on the UK to explain

what it was looking for in terms

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of future relations with the EU

and insisted that the time has now

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come to make a choice.

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So are those who favour

a short sharp break now

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hanging out the bunting?

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As for the rest - call

them Remainers or soft

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Brexiteers or what you will -

are they feeling the cloud

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of something long feared

becoming a stark reality?

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Our political editor

Nick Watt is here.

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You've been hearing

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strong stuff from one

of the Conservative party's most

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ardent Remainers tonight, Nick.

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Tell us

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what you heard.

Anna Soubry has been

outspoken since the referendum, she

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says her party appears to be in hock

to watch describes as 35 ideological

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exit years and it is time Theresa

May stood up to them and threw them

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out. If this doesn't happen Anna

Soubry who was in the Cameron

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government as a Business Minister

said, if it comes to it I will not

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stay in a party which is being taken

over by the likes of Jacob Rhys Mogg

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and Boris Johnson. She says, we

simply cannot go on like this any

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longer. Something is going to have

to give because if not, not only

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will we get Jacob Rees-Mogg as Prime

Minister, we will get a

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devastatingly hard Brexit. Anna

Soubry has said stuff in this sort

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of territory in recent months but

hasn't gone quite this far. It's

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also important to say that Anna

Soubry can at times go a little

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further than some of the Remain Tory

colleagues but and picking up quite

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a lot of frustration among those

MPs. So today I've been looking at

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the pressures on Theresa May as she

looks to settle what the UK wants

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for its future relationship with the

EU.

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I'm not afraid, I'll

race you and I'll win.

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Politics is, in many ways,

about the art of timing.

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Winning can demand speed

but sometimes being patient

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is the virtue that will ultimately

take you over the finishing

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line in first place.

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Look at that white tail flash.

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And so it is proving with Brexit.

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There have been unmistakable signs

of anguish amongst some Leave

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supporters who fear that as time

marches on, their dreams of a clean

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Brexit are slipping away.

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And then there are Remainers,

who appeared to be biding their time

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for a more complex exit from the EU.

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The fears and frustrations over

the nature of the UK's departure

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from the EU have come to a head

on above all one issue.

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What sort of customs relationship

will the UK have with the EU?

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Some Brexit supporters fear

the Treasury is nudging Theresa May

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towards a version of the current

customs union which would make it

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all but impossible for the UK

to negotiate free-trade deals

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around the world.

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Their nerves were calmed somewhat

this morning when Downing Street

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ruled out this option.

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The EU's chief negotiator,

Michel Barnier, was in

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Downing Street today,

where he warned that

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leaving the customs union

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and Single Market would create

unavoidable barriers to trade.

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Downing Street said this morning

that the UK would not be staying

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in the customs union

or a watered-down version

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dubbed "a" customs union.

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The government is

looking at two options.

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A customs arrangement

in which new technology will be

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harnessed to create as frictionless

a border as possible

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between the UK and the EU.

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A customs partnership

in which the UK and the EU

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would set their own tariffs,

but they would create

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as frictionless a border as possible

by levying each other's tariffs

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on goods transiting their borders.

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I understand Theresa May

is still keen on this option.

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But there is a third option that

could be pushed by Remain supporters

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who point out that the EU has talked

of magical thinking in Whitehall.

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This is the possibility of a vote

in Parliament later this year

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to maintain a version

of the current customs union.

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One Remain supporter warns

of serious consequences

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if Theresa May refuses

to keep her options open.

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Labour's front bench

itself is ideological.

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My front bench probably isn't,

but it's in hock to 35 hard

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ideological Brexiteers who are not

Tories.

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They're not the Tory party that

I joined 40 years ago and it's

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about time Theresa stood up

to them and slung them out.

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Because they've taken down Major,

they took down Cameron,

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two great leaders, neither

of whom stood up to them.

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Well, if it comes to it,

I'm not going to stay in a party

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which is being taken over

by the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg

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and Boris Johnson.

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They're not proper Conservatives.

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If that means leaving the party,

form some new alliance,

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God knows, I don't know,

but we simply cannot go

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on like this any longer.

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Something is going to have to give

because if it doesn't,

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not only will we get Jacob Rees-Mogg

as our Prime Minister,

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we'll get a devastating hard Brexit

which will cause huge damage

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to our economy for

generations to come.

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And I'm not prepared to sit

by any longer and put

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up with this nonsense.

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One Brexiteer insists that there's

strong unity in the party.

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I've found a very strong unity

of purpose which is everybody agrees

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that the British people said

we needed to leave the EU.

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In order to do that we need

to leave the Single Market,

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the customs union and regain control

of our laws and our borders.

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And it is the politicians

who will determine how we set policy

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and the civil servants

who will help implement it.

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And where civil servants

have tended to speak out

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perhaps more than is usual,

I think Jacob feels

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that they have crossed a line

which is inappropriate.

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Our political class is working

on one iconic clock.

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As that now silent landmark ticks

down to the Brexit deadline,

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the two sides know that whoever

masters the timing may

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master the result.

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Nick Watt there.

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Joining me from Strasbourg

is Mairead McGuinness,

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Vice President of the European

Parliament, and Lord Lamont

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former Chancellor of

the Exchequer and supporter

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of Leave Means Leave.

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I will come to you in a second, Lord

Lamont. If I turn to Mairead

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McGuinness, has had become much

simpler, do you understand the

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government position better, as of

today? Not particularly. I think I

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understand what the UK does not want

to be part of because very clearly

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the red lines of the customs union

and the single market. By regret

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that but I feel those are the red

lines. But I'm not sure what the

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United Kingdom wants in terms of the

fib in partnership. I know these

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items were published last August in

the position paper but the option

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the prime ministers seems to be

backing is unprecedented and there

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has been no worked until flesh out.

What we are watching is literally a

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battle within the Conservative Party

about what it wants for Brexit, and

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in the meantime we here at European

Union level are trying to make sure

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that we do reach some agreement with

the United Kingdom because we want

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to have a relationship, post-Brexit.

But we also have to finalise the

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details of the withdrawal agreement

and a period so it would be quite a

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busy time and this week is certainly

an interesting week in those

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developments.

Mairead McGuinness,

does it matter if all this is

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unprecedented? For example when

Michel Barnier comes to London and

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says terrorists are unavoidable,

they are not. Everyone is calling

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everyone else's bluff -- tariffs are

unavoidable.

I don't think this is a

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game of bluff because in my office

for example practically everyday

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there representatives of British

industry, whether from the

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pharmaceutical sector or others

trying to get me to understand their

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position and I understand it

completely. Because they have fears

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about moving away from the European

regulatory framework when it comes

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to access to pharmaceuticals for

example. Let's stop calling this a

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game of bluff. It is not, it is

about people's lives and livelihoods

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and this is why, politically this is

difficult. Michel Barnier needs to

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spell out how things are. If the UK

leads the customs union and single

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market and we don't know what will

be in its

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be in its place, and right to do

that and I think that David Davis

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understands that and I hope other

ministers understand it. What I hope

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will happen this week is that

officials and others will come to a

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better idea for the UK wants.

You

will better than most the huge

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question over the Irish border. --

you will understand this better than

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most. Do you really think the EU

parliament will pass any deal that

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creates a border with an Ireland?

I

think the question is the other way

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around. It is the one piece of text

I keep very close to my heart. It is

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about this agreement which the

United Kingdom has made, it is

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paragraph 49 of the text. I think

it's really important that the

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United Kingdom has given a clear

commitment that would be no return

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to a hard border on the island of

Ireland. It wants to do that in

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terms of future arrangements, that

needs to be compatible, it is saying

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they will have specific solutions to

the border... But with respect to

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your position, I represent a border

community on the island of Ireland.

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We know what we have today and that

is what we value. And we very much

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appreciate the United Kingdom 's

agreement that there will be no hard

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border and we would appreciate the

United Kingdom coming to the table

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and negotiating with the EU so there

is no hard border. This is part of

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the process, you know how difficult

the withdrawal agreement was, the

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last minutes when it was finally

agreed on money and borders and

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citizens rights? I hope it's not the

same with this feature partnership.

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Because we needed for security of

business and others that we get some

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sort of framework in place so that

business can understand what lies

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ahead.

Sure. Mairead McGuinness

thank you. Lord Lamont, first those

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comments from Anna Soubry who was

called upon the Prime Minister to

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show some spine and sling at the

hardline Brexiteers. She has named

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Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg in

particular and she points to 35

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others. Messi I think that is quite

ridiculous, frankly. I don't want to

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be rude about Anna Soubry but she

does tend to go over the top

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sometimes.

I think she is doing that

here. There are, obviously, while

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the government is formulating its

approach, different voices from

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different parts of the party.

She is

not wrong when she says that the

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divisions over Europe brought down

Major and brought down Cameron and

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Theresa May will be the third victim

unless she stands up to them.

I

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don't think these hardline

Brexiteers as you call them are

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aiming to bring her down, far from

it, they are trying to influence in

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one direction.

Do you think they do

have that influence? Are they in

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control?

Of course not. They do

things that Anna Soubry was

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objecting to, one leaving the

customs union, and never leaving the

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single market. Theresa May has

decided to pursue that for two

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simple reasons. The first with the

customs union is to have the freedom

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to strike trade deals elsewhere in

the world, and leaving the single

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market is essential because she

judges, and I think she was this

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strongly, that the British public

will also determined that we should

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have greater control over our

borders.

She says?

And you can't do

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that unless you leave the single

market. Those of two reasons, it is

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not to do with any faction in the

Conservative Party.

She feels

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differently, she calls them

ideological Brexiteers who are not

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Tories. Let me run is passing.

Something has to give. If Theresa

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May doesn't stand up and show, as

she calls it, spine, not only will

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we get Jacob Rees-Mogg as Prime

Minister, she says, we will get a

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hardline Brexit that will cause

damage... Would you welcome Jacob

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Rees-Mogg is Prime Minister?

When

she says devastating hardline Brexit

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she was objecting to two things the

Prime Minister has decided. Leaving

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the single market and leaving the

customs union. I have explained that

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that is being done for logical

reasons, not because Jacob Rees-Mogg

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or anyone else asked for it. Other

people have asked for it.

Mairead

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McGuinness, or you just heard, is

that not only is this unprecedented,

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this is not a game of bluff,

businesses and people and lives will

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be affected because there is no deal

possible without tariffs that cost

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money.

If there is a free trade

agreement, tariffs will... There has

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to be free-trade agreement because

it is overwhelmingly in the

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interests of the European Union.

Make the assumption that the EU is

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rational and will look after own

interests.

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We keep telling ourselves that it is

Europe's interest to come to the

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table and give us the deal we want

but Europe has made very little of

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the running so far and it will

survive without the UK.

We are

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sitting in the UK, quite

understandably, the way you look at

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it, you say, this is what the EU

wants, that's never going to change,

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and here's what Britain once, it is

unattainable. That's how the

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domestic press look at it but it

isn't the reality. What was said

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before the financial settlement was

agreed, 100 billion, that has never

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come down and in the end the EU

changed its position and Theresa May

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got what she wanted and I think that

will happen again.

Thank you for

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joining us.

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The White House has said

it is "concerned" about the fall

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on US stock markets today

after the Dow Jones Industrial

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Average dropped by 1,175 points,

the biggest one-day fall

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in six years.

0:15:560:15:57

Our business editor

Helen Thomas is here.

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What happened, what is this down to?

Just to put a bit of context, this

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is a huge drop, the biggest

percentage fall in six years. I

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think it's the biggest fall in

points terms ever on the Dow. What

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will have rattled people, at one

point today it was down nearly 6000

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points in a short space of time,

there was a sense of panic selling

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-- 1600 points. There was a pretty

big drop on the markets in the USA

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on Friday, and the same in Europe.

The stock markets had a very strong

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January and they've wiped out those

gains in a couple of days and some

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are down for the year. We are seeing

that of the two years where stock

0:16:480:16:52

markets only went up, in a straight

line, volatility is definitely back.

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A massive jump in the so-called fear

guage today.

How do you see these

0:17:000:17:07

figures?

Everyone has been waiting

for a market correction, markets

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going up, there have been concerns

about overvaluation. The question is

0:17:110:17:16

whether this is a quick, healthy

correction after which people see an

0:17:160:17:20

opportunity to get back in or is it

something more lasting? The

0:17:200:17:24

important thing is that this started

in the bond markets, they've been

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selling off since the beginning of

the year. It started with good news,

0:17:280:17:34

a stronger global economy, making

people think that maybe Central

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banks are going to put the brakes

on, fewer interest rate rises than

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we thought and it rattled the

markets. What people are worried

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about is that it may be a more

pronounced pick-up and there is

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uncertainty especially about

inflation. If that's the case it has

0:17:520:17:56

the prospect of causing more

problems and having a lasting effect

0:17:560:17:58

on the markets.

Thank you for

joining us.

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Tomorrow marks 100 years

since the first women

0:18:010:18:03

won the right to vote.

0:18:030:18:05

The day will be marked in a speech

by Theresa May praising the herosim

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of the suffrage movement and warning

that debate in modern

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politics is being coarsened

by bitterness and abuse.

0:18:110:18:14

Tonight, we devote the rest

of the programme to asking

0:18:140:18:18

if we should feel proud of how far

we've come in since 1918

0:18:180:18:21

or berate the lack of more

substantial progress.

0:18:210:18:24

With our panel of guests we look

at then, now and the whole

0:18:240:18:27

issue of gender itself.

0:18:270:18:28

Is that now going out of fashion?

0:18:280:18:31

Here's a brief history

of the journey with a bit of help

0:18:310:18:35

from the DVD collection.

0:18:350:18:38

Remember when cavewomen

used to dress like this?

0:18:380:18:42

We've come a long way

since the Lower Paleolithic period

0:18:420:18:44

though it doesn't always

feel that way.

0:18:440:18:46

The history of women's progress can

be told through cinema.

0:18:460:18:50

Women should not exercise judgment

in political affairs.

0:18:500:18:54

Although the fact this film,

Suffragette, took so long to make

0:18:540:18:58

and went bankrupt along the way

probably tells us much of the story

0:18:580:19:01

as much as the film itself.

0:19:010:19:03

It spoke of women winning a

political voice at the bollard box.

0:19:030:19:04

It spoke of women winning a

political voice at the battlot box.

0:19:080:19:11

It spoke of women winning

a political voice at the ballot box.

0:19:120:19:15

We are in every home,

we're half the human race.

0:19:150:19:17

You can't stop us all.

0:19:170:19:19

In Land Girls, we saw how war forced

women to match up to the men,

0:19:190:19:22

entering the workforce

in their hundreds of thousands in

0:19:220:19:24

the first half of the 20th century.

0:19:240:19:26

Fast forward to the late 60s,

that workforce of women,

0:19:260:19:29

beginning to win the right to be

paid the same as men

0:19:290:19:31

for the work they were doing.

0:19:310:19:33

Unarguably, that's still

a work in progress.

0:19:330:19:35

Sorry, I thought the secretary

would sit out here.

0:19:350:19:37

That's right.

0:19:370:19:38

I'm the secretary.

0:19:380:19:39

By the '80s, the shoulder pad

embodied the boardroom power battle.

0:19:390:19:46

Women working their way up

to leadership positions

0:19:460:19:48

in business and politics,

even if they did still

0:19:480:19:50

call on Harrison Ford

to lead them there.

0:19:500:19:52

As societal acceptance of single

teen motherhood was landed

0:19:520:19:54

in audience's laps with Juno,

a film that dares to frame

0:19:540:19:57

the question of abortion before

plumping, big-time, pro-life.

0:19:570:19:59

What, are you ashamed

that we did it?

0:19:590:20:01

No.

0:20:010:20:05

Because at least you don't have

to have the evidence

0:20:050:20:07

under your sweater.

0:20:070:20:08

I'm going to head out.

0:20:080:20:09

Oh, no, no.

0:20:090:20:10

Thank you.

0:20:100:20:11

Why don't you stay over?

0:20:110:20:13

Yes, no, I'm not going to stay here.

0:20:130:20:15

You have an early day.

0:20:150:20:20

Meanwhile, Amy Schumer

was telling men on a one-night

0:20:200:20:22

stand what to do in bed,

the sexual revolution dictated

0:20:220:20:25

by women who knew how to enjoy sex

and when to tell men to go home.

0:20:250:20:29

Whilst Hollywood took these messages

of female empowerment and threw

0:20:290:20:33

money at the women's revolution,

behind the scenes the exploitation

0:20:330:20:39

was flourishing, as the me too

movement continues to lay bare.

0:20:390:20:41

And you don't have to look

hard to find a battle

0:20:410:20:43

still being fought in the workplace.

0:20:430:20:47

So that was the first 200,000 years.

0:20:470:20:51

Will the next few move any quicker?

0:20:510:20:53

Which way will feminism go now?

0:20:530:20:58

Joining me to discuss this

I have the artist Tracey Emin,

0:20:580:21:01

the novelist Anne Atkins,

the former deputy leader

0:21:010:21:04

of the Labour party

Harriet Harman, and Ash Sarkar,

0:21:040:21:06

the senior editor of Novara Media.

0:21:060:21:10

What a pleasure to have you here.

Harriet, was there a time in your

0:21:100:21:17

life that was pre-feminism? Was

there an awakening when things felt

0:21:170:21:21

different?

Absolutely, distinctly, I

remember growing up, the idea that

0:21:210:21:28

the big ambition for a girl was to

have a good husband and when she'd

0:21:280:21:32

achieved this ambition, to be a good

housewife to that husband. And men

0:21:320:21:38

were regarded as superior and women,

subordinate. The thing about the

0:21:380:21:43

women's movement, they came along

and said we aren't inferior, we want

0:21:430:21:46

to be treated as equal and to be

partners with our husband.

Did you

0:21:460:21:53

accept it at first?

I didn't because

my mother didn't accept it, she said

0:21:530:21:58

to me, most people think that if a

man says something it is more likely

0:21:580:22:01

to be true than if a woman says it

but I don't agree with that. So I

0:22:010:22:05

was getting subversive messages.

However also getting the general

0:22:050:22:11

view that I should get a husband and

get a bit of education but not too

0:22:110:22:16

much because no man would want to

marry a girl who is too clever by

0:22:160:22:20

half in case she outshone him. A lot

of mixed messages and then the

0:22:200:22:25

women's movement came along and

said, forget that, we want to be

0:22:250:22:30

equal in the home, outside the home,

in public life, everything else.

0:22:300:22:36

Ash,, do you think there has been a

woman for you or has feminism been

0:22:360:22:41

vulnerable?

I was lucky in how I was

raised, I grew up with feminism, my

0:22:410:22:47

mum from an early age would make

picture books with my sister and I

0:22:470:22:52

doing adventurous things so we'd

grow up with a sense of possibility

0:22:520:22:58

but we were taught about experiences

in the women's movement in the 70s

0:22:580:23:02

and 80s. She told us it wasn't the

most accommodating place to be a

0:23:020:23:06

woman of colour and while we talk

about the mainstream history of

0:23:060:23:10

feminism, the one we are celebrating

today, there is a counter history of

0:23:100:23:15

feminism led by female trade

unionists, by migrant women, women

0:23:150:23:19

of colour, and crossing with the

anti-colonial and antiracism

0:23:190:23:24

movements. One of the important

things to remember is that there

0:23:240:23:28

isn't a single feminist movement.

Do

they contradict each other or do

0:23:280:23:33

they pull in different directions?

Often people in different directions

0:23:330:23:36

but they don't have too. They go in

different directions because social

0:23:360:23:41

movements reflect the hierarchies in

society and it's only through

0:23:410:23:45

solidarity that we can redress that.

I can't think of a contemporary

0:23:450:23:50

artist who has lifted the lid on

women are more than your work,

0:23:500:23:55

whether it is sexual behaviour,

abortion, the sort of, you know, the

0:23:550:24:01

raw truth about what it is to be a

woman and all the difficult bits. Do

0:24:010:24:08

you think you started a conversation

that wasn't being had before?

Yeah I

0:24:080:24:14

think a lot of the things that

happened to me in my life, whether

0:24:140:24:17

it's rape, whether it's abortion, I

was raised by my mum, a single mum

0:24:170:24:23

who raised me, I think having those

experiences made me a much stronger

0:24:230:24:29

woman because it's pretty painful,

the whole thing is painful, being a

0:24:290:24:33

woman is excruciatingly painful.

When you talked about rape and when

0:24:330:24:38

you talked about your own abortion,

did you feel that was breaking a big

0:24:380:24:42

taboo?

I think so, a lot of women

are really ashamed about abortion

0:24:420:24:46

for example but I've always said

that no woman wants to have an

0:24:460:24:50

abortion, you don't wake up and feel

like having one. You do it and it

0:24:500:24:57

feels horrific to go through that,

no woman wants to have an abortion.

0:24:570:25:00

You are in a position where it is

Hobson's choice, you have no choice.

0:25:000:25:07

Maybe in hindsight you regret it but

at the time that's all you can

0:25:070:25:12

possibly do and you feel very much

alone. I think society has been

0:25:120:25:17

incredibly cruel to a lot of women

who have made that decision one way

0:25:170:25:21

or another.

Do you think this is a

valuable conversation that is being

0:25:210:25:27

had now? Has this been a liberation

for women?

We're speaking as if

0:25:270:25:34

feminism was invented in the late

20th century but I think it goes

0:25:340:25:36

back thousands of years. You think

about the campaign to end war, and

0:25:360:25:44

men who have campaigned...

On some

of the points that Tracey made,

0:25:440:25:54

talking about abortion and being

able to have one, is that progress?

0:25:540:25:58

Yes, the last hundred years have

been progress. I think we've made

0:25:580:26:02

mistakes, as you do with any radical

changes. I think the biggest mistake

0:26:020:26:08

I would pinpoint is when, you know,

there are some ways in which 100

0:26:080:26:15

years ago women's lives were better

than men's. Instead of men's being

0:26:150:26:21

raised to women's standards... For

instance, lung cancer, men have very

0:26:210:26:27

steadily fewer and fewer of them are

dying of lung cancer, more women are

0:26:270:26:32

dying of it. We are doing something

wrong, 100 years ago, women smoked

0:26:320:26:39

less.

You could take breast cancer

and prostate cancer and reverse

0:26:390:26:43

them.

That's not what I'm saying,

alcoholism, men used to be three and

0:26:430:26:48

a half times more likely to be

drinking to their own detriment, now

0:26:480:26:51

the gap has narrowed in the wrong

direction and the same with

0:26:510:26:55

promiscuous sex and all sorts of

things. Of course we'd agree that

0:26:550:26:59

the last 100 years have been huge

progress but not everything has been

0:26:590:27:03

right.

A lot of women were dying

before the age of 45 in childbirth.

0:27:030:27:09

Sure.

They didn't make it past 45,

forget lung cancer, they didn't even

0:27:090:27:17

get through childbirth.

You're not

hearing what I'm saying, by and

0:27:170:27:21

large it's progress, of course it

is, we are grateful for the last

0:27:210:27:25

hundred years, but I'm not saying

we've got everything right. Of

0:27:250:27:27

course we haven't.

I'd like to make

more progress in promiscuous sex,

0:27:270:27:34

I'm speaking for myself here. But

the point I'm making is that one of

0:27:340:27:41

the things I think we need to get

back to doing is talking about power

0:27:410:27:45

rather than just personal choices. I

think that a feminism that

0:27:450:27:49

emphasises how much sex is the

feminist amount of sex to have, how

0:27:490:27:55

much you should be drinking, misses

the point. The point is that women,

0:27:550:28:00

politically, socially and

economically are disempowered. It's

0:28:000:28:02

really nothing to do with these

personal choices.

We all agree, I'm

0:28:020:28:07

pinpointing a tiny detail about what

we're talking about, we haven't got

0:28:070:28:11

everything right, that's all.

One of

the big issues, the gender pay gap,

0:28:110:28:17

generating hundreds of column inches

and this column shows that the gap

0:28:170:28:22

is still present. By the time a girl

hits 20 years old there is a pay gap

0:28:220:28:26

and that expands as women hit

child-bearing age.

0:28:260:28:32

I know you want to come in Harriet,

how can we be 47 years on from the

0:28:320:28:38

equal pay act and still be talking

about this?

Because pay

0:28:380:28:43

discrimination... In the past, in

the pre-feminist days, it was

0:28:430:28:48

positively regarded as a bad thing

to argue for a woman's pay rate to

0:28:480:28:52

be equal to a man's because he had

to be the breadwinner and bring home

0:28:520:28:57

the family wage and it was

distracting against the struggle for

0:28:570:29:02

him to have a proper wage for her to

have a proper wage so it was frowned

0:29:020:29:06

upon, even in the trade union

movement. And the argument then was

0:29:060:29:10

that then women were entitled to

equal pay and not everyone agrees

0:29:100:29:14

that it is right that they should

but of course pay discrimination

0:29:140:29:19

flourishes in secret. Now we have

the transparency that is coming in

0:29:190:29:22

but everyone is going to have to

publish their pay gap if they employ

0:29:220:29:26

more than 250 people, by April. And

at that point we will be able to see

0:29:260:29:32

laid bare the extent of the

discrimination and be able to tackle

0:29:320:29:35

and but part of it is because of the

unequal division of Labour in the

0:29:350:29:39

home. If you've got a situation

where women have most responsibility

0:29:390:29:44

for caring for children and older

relatives the corollary is that they

0:29:440:29:47

lose out in the workplace. That is

why men's involvement in the home

0:29:470:29:53

with their children and the elegy

relatives is as important as women

0:29:530:29:57

being able to do more at work.

Have

we overly defined the role that men

0:29:570:30:02

can play without feeling emasculated

or damaged in some way? Women can

0:30:020:30:07

now do everything, can't they. They

can do every job and they can stay

0:30:070:30:11

at home and look after children but

it is much harder for a man to take

0:30:110:30:14

that role in the home without it

being...

The thing here is that we

0:30:140:30:22

fought for maternity pay and leave

to be longer and higher. We also

0:30:220:30:27

fought for paternity pay and leave

but actually at some point we are

0:30:270:30:31

saying, why don't men fight for

paternity pay instead of saying to

0:30:310:30:35

us how hard it is for them to us to

work part-time why don't they fight

0:30:350:30:39

for that because we can't fight

men's battles as well as women's.

On

0:30:390:30:45

the equal pay thing everyone keeps

talking about hundred years and it

0:30:450:30:48

isn't. For most women it is 90

years. The vote for the majority of

0:30:480:30:53

women came in in 1928 and you had to

be a property owner, you had to be

0:30:530:30:58

university educated and you had to

be over 30. So we can now start

0:30:580:31:02

talking about class. That cut at the

majority

0:31:020:31:10

of women in this country. And sadly

enough, the majority of women in

0:31:220:31:25

this country will only vote for

their husbands vote for, I'm afraid

0:31:250:31:27

and a lot of people showed me down

for that but it is true.

I'm glad

0:31:270:31:30

you mentioned class and I think this

is a good time to think about how

0:31:300:31:33

race class and gender work together

because there is a gender pay gap

0:31:330:31:36

and it gets worse if you are a woman

of colour. A black woman is three

0:31:360:31:39

times more likely to be unemployed

than a white woman. All these things

0:31:390:31:42

have economic outcomes. It also

means you can have a patriarch you

0:31:420:31:44

without the immediate figure of the

patriarchy, just these deeply

0:31:440:31:46

unequal outcomes that need

addressing, it's one of the things

0:31:460:31:48

that has negatively affected us. Can

I finish this, one sad thing as the

0:31:480:31:53

demise of union agitation for better

pay and conditions along the lines

0:31:530:31:57

of gender and race. In the era of

Sheryl Sandberg we think that if we

0:31:570:32:01

improve our attitude we will be

treated better at work, no...

Can I

0:32:010:32:07

just ask, is the problem that women

have tried to emulate the male

0:32:070:32:12

working patterns instead of

discovering their own?

It is amiss

0:32:120:32:18

characterisation to imply that

feminism is about individualism. For

0:32:180:32:21

the most part feminism is about the

grid of solidarity and what we

0:32:210:32:26

wanted was collective feminism in

the workplace for trade unions to

0:32:260:32:29

adopt the rights of women as well as

her man. Some feminists have argued

0:32:290:32:34

for individualism but the majority

would want collective action.

There

0:32:340:32:38

is more than one strain of feminism.

I'm saying that there's a different

0:32:380:32:43

kind of history, socialist famine in

history...

I'm glad you brought up

0:32:430:32:48

the fact that women of colour are

even more discriminated against

0:32:480:32:51

another women.

Of course we must

address that. But is a fundamental

0:32:510:32:59

difference between racial

discrimination and gender

0:32:590:33:02

discrimination in that one day we

can envisage full equality across

0:33:020:33:05

the races. Let me finish. With

sexual differences, in a sense,

0:33:050:33:15

there will never be that unless we

are constantly striving for it

0:33:150:33:18

because women will always be more

vulnerable. We are weaker

0:33:180:33:23

physically, generally speaking and

our reproductive functions make us

0:33:230:33:27

more vulnerable socially.

You think

we will wipe out racism before we

0:33:270:33:32

wipe out...

We will never... Because

when I walked down the street I am

0:33:320:33:37

more vulnerable than one my husband

walks down the street. That's

0:33:370:33:40

obvious. The reason I raise that is

because there is a sense in which we

0:33:400:33:45

will always have to keep striving

for sexual equality and we will only

0:33:450:33:49

get it when we get things like child

care...

With all due respect I think

0:33:490:33:56

this is historical. If you look at

this Public and private divide

0:33:560:33:59

between home and work this is a

product of the industrial

0:33:590:34:03

revolution. Similarly racism is a

product of historical forces. If I

0:34:030:34:07

can just say it in terms of what I

have felt has held me back in my

0:34:070:34:12

life, I have experienced the most

violence and hostility, it has been

0:34:120:34:17

because of my race, not my gender.

Of course. Maybe in 500 years we

0:34:170:34:23

will have babies born in labs but

the point is that women have to take

0:34:230:34:26

more time out to have a baby even if

it's only a few days it's still more

0:34:260:34:30

than men have to. So unless we have

proper childcare and keep fighting

0:34:300:34:36

positive discrimination...

I'm just

going to move us on because Anne has

0:34:360:34:41

talked about the future, 500 years

and babies born in labs and

0:34:410:34:45

something interesting is going on.

0:34:450:34:47

So what's the future of this debate?

0:34:470:34:49

Where will it go next?

0:34:490:34:50

Following the Women's March

in Washington last year,

0:34:500:34:52

there was a backlash from some women

about how female empowerment

0:34:520:34:55

is being framed.

0:34:550:34:56

The use of pink pussy hats

and banners associating the movement

0:34:560:34:58

with vaginas were criticised

by transgender activists.

0:34:580:35:01

This year the Pussycat movement said

it would discard the pink hats

0:35:010:35:04

and the vagina as symbol of female

empowerment to make sure

0:35:040:35:06

no-one felt excluded.

0:35:060:35:14

So I wonder what the future looks

like. Tracy and will start with you.

0:35:160:35:20

Are we re-evaluating gender as a

whole?

When I first went to art

0:35:200:35:25

school in 1983I was interviewed by

two women and they asked me one

0:35:250:35:29

question, what do you think of

feminism. This was in 1983 and I

0:35:290:35:35

said I don't. They said why not. I

said, I just have to do what I have

0:35:350:35:39

to do to get on and that has been my

attitude. A lot of women spend too

0:35:390:35:43

much time talking about things,

getting theories, sitting down, it

0:35:430:35:48

is no good just sitting down at a

table and being an armchair

0:35:480:35:52

feminist. You have to get out there,

change things, have a voice, be

0:35:520:35:58

motivated. I've changed a lot in the

art world. I have changed a lot for

0:35:580:36:01

women. I have a very loud voice on

women's issues because I live them.

0:36:010:36:07

I'm not sitting around

philosophising. I have gone through

0:36:070:36:09

these things. I have been raped. I

have had abortions. My list of

0:36:090:36:14

catastrophes in my life is endless.

I'm not looking through a history

0:36:140:36:18

book and guessing what will happen

in the future, talking about here

0:36:180:36:21

and now and how we must change

things and what we must do. I'd like

0:36:210:36:25

to see one big policy change and I

think it would make life that for a

0:36:250:36:29

lot of women in this country.

And

like an end to the hostile

0:36:290:36:34

environment immigration policy. In

March last year a five months

0:36:340:36:37

pregnant woman who had been

kidnapped and raped over a period of

0:36:370:36:40

six months went to the police to be

reporter experience. She was taken

0:36:400:36:46

to a rape crisis Centre and then

arrested and interrogated for

0:36:460:36:50

immigration offences. The

immigration policy we have today

0:36:500:36:53

makes women vulnerable. We

incarcerate victims of torture,

0:36:530:36:57

sexual violence, that's got to end.

It has to come back too, for you,

0:36:570:37:03

race, race is to be intrinsic to the

feminist debate?

Race and class.

All

0:37:030:37:12

right. To Anne and Harriet, this

movement to take the vagina out of

0:37:120:37:25

feminism, to de-gender everything,

do you understand that? To say, I

0:37:250:37:30

don't want to recognise the female

of the feminine, I want to move

0:37:300:37:34

somewhere totally neutral?

I am

always a bit anxious when the

0:37:340:37:41

general progressive movements seem

to be arguing amongst themselves

0:37:410:37:44

rather than looking to the wrongs

out there. I think rather than an

0:37:440:37:51

internal critic of feminism we

should look at the problems of

0:37:510:37:55

misogyny and turning ourselves

outwards. Every sort of

0:37:550:38:00

discrimination and prejudice is

wrong, whether it is on race,

0:38:000:38:04

disability, gender or sexual

orientation. Everyone has to fight

0:38:040:38:08

in their own way. But all of them,

whatever people are doing on this

0:38:080:38:12

issues is better than those opposing

change and opposing equality, so I

0:38:120:38:17

think in a way we shouldn't have a

hierarchy of inequality or judge

0:38:170:38:21

each other too harshly because we

are always being judged ourselves.

0:38:210:38:26

We have to try to be generous to all

of us who are fighting against

0:38:260:38:31

hatred and prejudice, and for

equality.

Anne, I will give you the

0:38:310:38:36

last word.

I want to go back to you

started, personal experiences. My

0:38:360:38:41

inspiration through life has been my

mother, the most amazing person. She

0:38:410:38:46

came to this country at 18 on her

own from Australia to take up a

0:38:460:38:50

maths scholarship when women

couldn't take degrees in a man's

0:38:500:38:54

subject, she took some of the best

mathematicians in the country, and

0:38:540:38:59

yet her greatest joy, I will be shot

down in this but her greatest joy

0:38:590:39:04

was being and a mother. What my

mother had that was a wonderful was

0:39:040:39:08

the most terrific joy in life. She

had her choices.

0:39:080:39:17

had her choices. She had a fantastic

brain and yet even more important

0:39:200:39:22

than maths, which she adored was the

people in her life. She symbolises a

0:39:220:39:26

fantastic voice.

She still had a

period and had to pay tax on every

0:39:260:39:32

tampon and sanitary towel she used

and that should be stopped

0:39:320:39:35

immediately, but is barbaric. She

never mentioned it because you just

0:39:350:39:39

enjoy to life. Week have run out of

time, thank you all for coming in.

0:39:390:39:45

Evan will be here tomorrow, thank

you all for watching

0:39:450:39:48

and a very good night, Bye

0:39:480:39:50

With Emily Maitlis. A senior Tory says the Brexiteers should be removed from the party. Plus on the centenary of the vote for women, what has the UK got right and wrong since then?


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