09/02/2018 Newsnight


09/02/2018

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 09/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

He was a 68-year-old man

using an Oxfam villa to invite young

0:00:060:00:14

women to use for sex in a country

that had just been through

0:00:140:00:17

a devastating earthquake.

0:00:170:00:18

What bit of that was

normal or acceptable?

0:00:180:00:22

It is not normal or acceptable,

that is what we said at the time

0:00:220:00:25

and I will say now.

0:00:250:00:26

Tonight...

0:00:260:00:34

The government exists has no

tolerance.

0:00:350:00:39

How rife is it within the charity

and the sector at large?

0:00:390:00:42

As the Prime Minister orders a full

and urgent investigation,

0:00:420:00:45

we'll ask what went wrong.

0:00:450:00:46

Also tonight...

0:00:460:00:47

As Syria's war rumbles on,

Newsnight receives fresh footage

0:00:470:00:49

that suggests the Assad regime has

returned to chemical warfare.

0:00:490:00:56

It looks like significant chemical

weapons attack, without shadow of a

0:00:560:01:03

doubt.

And this could well be Sarin?

It could well be.

0:01:030:01:10

Raising the Black Flag.

0:01:100:01:11

America's bad boy meets

Newsnight's bad boy.

0:01:110:01:15

Henry Rollins meets John Sweeney.

0:01:150:01:16

We're as terrified as you are.

0:01:160:01:19

Um...

Do you fancy an arm wrestle?

0:01:190:01:27

Good evening.

0:01:300:01:35

In the last few minutes and

apartment but International

0:01:350:01:38

Development has announced it is

reviewing work with Oxfam after The

0:01:380:01:41

Times revealed documents which

suggested the charity had covered up

0:01:410:01:45

a sexual exploitation charity in

Haiti. Three charity workers

0:01:450:01:50

including the Country Director

resigned and Paul Morgan dismissed

0:01:500:01:53

after an investigation uncovered

various examples of inappropriate

0:01:530:01:56

behaviour, including the use of

positives, bullying and intimidation

0:01:560:01:59

at the height of the relief effort

following a devastating earthquake

0:01:590:02:03

in 2011.

0:02:030:02:05

Today the former chief executive

of Oxfam told this programme

0:02:050:02:08

she was aware of other,

earlier cases of sexual exploitation

0:02:080:02:10

by staff members whilst

she was in charge of the charity.

0:02:100:02:13

Tonight, questions are being asked

about why Oxfam failed to warn other

0:02:130:02:16

aid agencies of the behaviour,

as Oxfam admitted it could not

0:02:160:02:20

guarantee the former employees had

not taken up other jobs among

0:02:200:02:22

vulnerable people in disaster

zones around the world.

0:02:220:02:30

The 2010 earthquake in

Port-au-Prince killed 220,000 people

0:02:340:02:36

and left another 1.5

million homeless.

0:02:360:02:38

The international relief rescue

was huge and at its very

0:02:380:02:41

centre, the renowned British charity

and household name, Oxfam.

0:02:410:02:45

Today an investigation

by The Times revealed

0:02:450:02:48

that amidst the devastation and

trauma of the quake-ravaged country,

0:02:480:02:53

members of the charity's staff

were engaged in sexual exploitation,

0:02:530:02:55

bullying and intimidation, as well

as the downloading of pornography.

0:02:550:03:00

Oxfam was made aware

of what it called

0:03:000:03:02

a culture of impunity

at the

0:03:020:03:05

time and allowed three men

to resign, sacking four others for

0:03:050:03:08

gross misconduct.

0:03:080:03:09

The press release issued

at the time made no mention

0:03:090:03:12

of sexual misconduct

but the confidential report stated

0:03:120:03:16

it could not rule out

the possibility that

0:03:160:03:18

the prostitutes were under age.

0:03:180:03:20

One of the men allowed

to resign without

0:03:200:03:23

disciplinary action was the country

director, Roland Van Hauwermeiren,

0:03:230:03:29

who admitted using prostitutes

at the villa rented for him by Oxfam

0:03:290:03:32

with charitable funds.

0:03:320:03:34

The chief executive

at the time, Barbara

0:03:340:03:36

Stocking, offered him

a dignified exit,

0:03:360:03:38

including a month's pay,

to

0:03:380:03:40

avoid repercussions

on the charity's work and staff.

0:03:400:03:47

Oxfam's mission statement

champions helping

0:03:470:03:49

marginalised women

to claim their rights

0:03:490:03:51

and empowering people

to

0:03:510:03:52

create a secure future.

0:03:520:03:57

So why were the men

involved never publicly

0:03:570:03:59

disciplined?

0:03:590:04:00

Why did the charity allow

this perception of a

0:04:000:04:02

cover-up?

0:04:020:04:03

And how can taxpayers be sure that

money is being spent by

0:04:030:04:06

organisations with thorough

oversight of the actions of their

0:04:060:04:08

staff?

0:04:080:04:12

Before we came on air,

I talked to Barbara Stocking,

0:04:120:04:14

Oxfam's former CEO.

0:04:140:04:15

She stood down from

the role in 2013.

0:04:150:04:18

I asked her why she hadn't

investigated the people involved.

0:04:180:04:22

The first moment I heard

back in 2011 we sent

0:04:220:04:24

an investigation team.

0:04:240:04:26

Also, it's not true that it

wasn't transparent.

0:04:260:04:29

We put a press release out

when the investigation

0:04:290:04:31

team was investigating.

0:04:310:04:34

We put a press release

out after that as well.

0:04:340:04:37

Hang on a second.

0:04:370:04:38

The Charity Commission said they're

still awaiting the full report

0:04:380:04:41

and the man at the centre of this,

your country director,

0:04:410:04:44

Roland van Hauwermeiren,

was not even fired.

0:04:440:04:47

Let's take one at a time.

0:04:470:04:49

The Charity Commission said

at the time, because we informed

0:04:490:04:53

them about it, reported to them

about it, and they said

0:04:530:04:55

that there were no regulatory

concerns about it.

0:04:550:04:58

That's what happened at the time.

0:04:580:05:02

We also actually told DfID.

0:05:020:05:03

Why do they say then that they're

still awaiting the full report?

0:05:030:05:06

They're still awaiting

that report from you.

0:05:060:05:08

I don't know because I'm not

still there but at the time

0:05:080:05:11

there was no question that they had

said, they were happy

0:05:110:05:13

that the trustees were taking this

seriously and dealing with it.

0:05:130:05:18

They were happy that a man hadn't

even been fired for having

0:05:180:05:21

exploitative sex with prostitutes

in a disaster strewn

0:05:210:05:23

country like Haiti?

0:05:230:05:25

Well, let me talk about

that, that's the second

0:05:250:05:27

point of the question.

0:05:270:05:29

The reason, you go

in, you investigate.

0:05:290:05:32

The first thing they did was talk

to the country director.

0:05:320:05:35

At that time he confessed to, well,

his own behaviour at least,

0:05:350:05:40

we were very concerned if I remember

right that we thought

0:05:400:05:43

there were more people in this

and we wanted to make sure

0:05:430:05:46

we could investigate and get

all of that out which is why,

0:05:460:05:49

because he'd already said,

I'll resign, I'll go,

0:05:490:05:51

that we said we would do that.

0:05:510:05:53

And that took...

0:05:530:05:55

What?!

0:05:550:05:57

So your country director had

admitted to exploitative sexual

0:05:570:06:01

behaviour, predatory behaviour

with young women, prostitutes,

0:06:010:06:05

in a country he was meant to be

helping and you just thought fine?

0:06:050:06:08

No, of course not.

0:06:080:06:09

You thought we'll let him go

and you paid him an extra month.

0:06:090:06:13

Because we wanted him

there because what we were afraid

0:06:130:06:16

of was that there were more people

there and we didn't immediately want

0:06:160:06:19

that exposed and we wanted to make

sure we could get in and also make

0:06:190:06:23

sure there was not any

bullying of the people.

0:06:230:06:25

So you used somebody

who was basically an offender

0:06:250:06:28

to help you with the investigation?

0:06:280:06:30

He was an offender because he

had used prostitutes.

0:06:300:06:34

He was a 68-year-old man

using an Oxfam villa to invite young

0:06:340:06:40

women to use for sex in a country

that had just been through

0:06:400:06:44

a devastating earthquake.

0:06:440:06:47

What bit of that was

normal or acceptable?

0:06:470:06:50

It's not normal or acceptable,

that's what we said at the time

0:06:500:06:53

and I will say now.

0:06:530:06:54

That was completely unacceptable

which is why we did

0:06:540:06:57

the investigation and why,

out of nine people that

0:06:570:06:59

were investigated...

0:06:590:07:00

You literally carried

on paying him...

0:07:000:07:03

For one month.

0:07:030:07:04

Yeah, because you cut

a deal with him.

0:07:040:07:06

Why would you cut a deal?

0:07:060:07:09

Because we wanted to make sure

that we could get the whole lot

0:07:090:07:12

of them dealt with and out

of the way when it became clear

0:07:120:07:15

there was a group of men

who were doing this.

0:07:150:07:18

Do you know where he works now?

0:07:180:07:19

Do you know where the three others

that were fired work?

0:07:190:07:22

Of course I wouldn't,

I'm not in Oxfam, I haven't been

0:07:220:07:25

in Oxfam for five years.

0:07:250:07:26

He was 68, I doubt if he's

worked at all, frankly.

0:07:260:07:28

There were three others,

we don't know where they are.

0:07:280:07:31

We would never...

0:07:310:07:32

Well, they have gone and have

to make their own lives,

0:07:320:07:36

we would never give them any

reference or anything whatsoever.

0:07:360:07:38

Hang on a second, we don't even know

who those people are,

0:07:380:07:41

they have not been identified.

0:07:410:07:43

For all you know they could be

working in another aid agency,

0:07:430:07:45

they could be working with young

women again or with children.

0:07:450:07:49

What we did quite a lot at that time

with all the agencies,

0:07:490:07:53

and being clear, all the agencies,

not in Haiti only but in countries

0:07:530:07:56

where there were emergencies,

where there were conflicts,

0:07:560:07:58

we will all working and working

together to try to make sure that

0:07:580:08:01

actually nobody that we knew was not

responsible who had that sort

0:08:010:08:08

of behaviour, would actually come

into any other aid agencies.

0:08:080:08:11

That had to be done.

0:08:110:08:13

Actually there are

personnel issues...

0:08:130:08:14

I'm confused.

0:08:140:08:15

Do you actually know

where these people are now?

0:08:150:08:18

I don't know...

0:08:180:08:19

Do you know that

they're not working?

0:08:190:08:20

I would not know because I've been

out of Oxfam for five years,

0:08:200:08:23

you would have to ask

somebody else that.

0:08:230:08:25

But isn't it extraordinary that

you knew about all of this for seven

0:08:250:08:29

years and yet it has only come

to light, the kind of allegations...

0:08:290:08:32

No, not at all.

0:08:320:08:33

As I said, we went in

and we investigated fully.

0:08:330:08:36

Out of nine people that

were investigated, only

0:08:360:08:39

two were exonerated.

0:08:390:08:40

You don't think there's any improper

behaviour on the part of Oxfam,

0:08:400:08:43

just to clarify that?

0:08:430:08:45

I don't think so.

0:08:450:08:47

You may have done something

different in the past but these

0:08:470:08:50

are very difficult circumstances.

0:08:500:08:51

What do you mean?

0:08:510:08:52

What I mean is, we investigated...

0:08:520:08:53

What I would expect

an organisation to do is...

0:08:530:08:56

As you know, these sorts of things

are around in all sorts

0:08:560:08:59

of parts of the world.

0:08:590:09:01

What to expect the agency to do

is to investigate fully and then

0:09:010:09:04

to actually deal with those people

and actually stop them

0:09:040:09:07

working and get them out

and all the rest of it.

0:09:070:09:10

That, you know...

0:09:100:09:13

Get them out quietly,

carry on paying them if need be, do

0:09:130:09:16

a deal which is what we know about.

0:09:160:09:18

No, no, no, we dismissed four

of those as well out of that.

0:09:180:09:21

Do you know what, your mission

statement is championing

0:09:210:09:24

equal rights for women.

0:09:240:09:25

Absolutely.

0:09:250:09:26

Helping marginalised

women claim their rights.

0:09:260:09:28

Yes, yes.

0:09:280:09:30

So why wouldn't your first instinct

be to say, this is shocking,

0:09:300:09:33

we are rooting it out,

we're telling the world

0:09:330:09:35

that we've done this.

0:09:350:09:37

We did do.

0:09:370:09:39

We did do.

0:09:390:09:41

As I said, we put out

a press release about

0:09:410:09:43

when the investigation went in...

0:09:430:09:44

So you're saying nothing new,

nothing new today, nothing

0:09:440:09:46

new about the story at all?

0:09:460:09:48

Only things that come

in that we have no idea

0:09:480:09:50

where they come from but at the time

but at the time...

0:09:500:09:53

Do you think you treated your

country director in the right way,

0:09:530:09:56

letting him resign before

he was fired, paying him off,

0:09:560:09:58

yes, only for a month

but still letting him do

0:09:580:10:01

a deal on his own terms?

0:10:010:10:02

I don't know, I might now, seven

years later and with hindsight,

0:10:020:10:05

do something different

but at the time that seemed

0:10:050:10:07

like the right thing to do to make

sure that this whole thing got

0:10:070:10:11

closed down as fast

as we could possibly do it.

0:10:110:10:13

Was this the first time you ever

heard of exploitative sexual

0:10:130:10:16

behaviour going on at Oxfam?

0:10:160:10:17

No.

0:10:170:10:18

No, because, no, I can only think

of one or two that come to mind

0:10:180:10:24

but basically we had already agreed

that any sign that anybody

0:10:240:10:28

was doing this and there

would be an investigation.

0:10:280:10:30

That investigation was noted

and went to our trustee

0:10:300:10:33

board once a quarter.

0:10:330:10:34

From 2011...

0:10:340:10:38

But before that.

0:10:380:10:40

Before that you knew

that there was sexual

0:10:400:10:42

exploitative behaviour?

0:10:420:10:44

Sexual exploitation was going on,

I can't say it is going on,

0:10:440:10:48

was going on, we knew

in a lot of places...

0:10:480:10:50

With Oxfam staff.

0:10:500:10:53

With some Oxfam staff who had been

investigated over...

0:10:530:10:57

I was there 12 years,

I can think of probably one,

0:10:570:11:02

formerly, that I know of that

absolutely was dismissed.

0:11:020:11:04

Wouldn't it have been so simple

to send out a really clear signal

0:11:040:11:07

by getting your country director

fired and investigated by police

0:11:070:11:12

instead of allowing him to do a deal

that might allow for more cases

0:11:120:11:16

to come up?

0:11:160:11:18

We took legal advice in Haiti

and it was made quite clear

0:11:180:11:21

that the police would not be

interested in this.

0:11:210:11:23

Thank you very much.

0:11:230:11:24

Thank you.

0:11:240:11:30

Dame Barbara Stocking. The

government is reviewing its work for

0:11:300:11:36

Oxfam in light of these allegations

and in a statement, said it

0:11:360:11:41

acknowledged hundreds of Oxfam staff

had done no wrong but added the way

0:11:410:11:45

this appalling abuse of vulnerable

people was dealt with raises serious

0:11:450:11:49

questions that Oxfam must answer.

There is more on their story in The

0:11:490:11:52

Times tomorrow.

0:11:520:11:56

As you heard in that interview,

Dame Barbara couldn't say for sure

0:11:560:11:59

that the dismissed staff hadn't gone

on to work for other

0:11:590:12:02

aid organisations.

0:12:020:12:03

The Times has discovered that

the man at the heart of the story -

0:12:030:12:06

country director Roland van

Hauwermeiren - did work

0:12:060:12:09

elsewhere afterwards,

in a senior role for a French

0:12:090:12:11

charity at a project in Bangladesh.

0:12:110:12:15

The bosses of that organisation have

even said they received positive

0:12:150:12:19

references about Mr van

Hauwermeiren from Oxfam.

0:12:190:12:21

Full details are in

the Times tomorrow.

0:12:210:12:26

Well joining me now from Nottingham

is the MP Andrew Mitchell -

0:12:260:12:31

he was the Development Secretary

at the time of the problems

0:12:310:12:34

Oxfam had in Haiti.

0:12:340:12:35

And with me in the studio

is Anthony Stewart, chair

0:12:350:12:37

of the Haiti Support Group,

which works to improve

0:12:370:12:39

the life of people in Haiti.

0:12:390:12:43

I'll start with Anthony, there is a

lot to unpack from what Dame Barbara

0:12:430:12:47

said, first of all that she was

aware of cases of sexual

0:12:470:12:53

exploitation by Oxfam staff, even

before the 2011 allegations. Was the

0:12:530:12:57

way Oxfam behaved in 2011 with what

they discovered the right one?

When

0:12:570:13:07

it comes to my reaction for the

interview and the statements in 2011

0:13:070:13:13

and today, they are very keen on

talking about something that

0:13:130:13:17

happened in the past and they didn't

particularly want to talk about

0:13:170:13:20

again today. And they want to keep

that in the past but in Haiti there

0:13:200:13:25

is a saying, the giver of the blow

forgets but the bearer of the scars

0:13:250:13:29

never does. I feel that to respond

to these allegations by removing the

0:13:290:13:39

people in question tends to

highlight it as an isolated incident

0:13:390:13:43

but it is not. We do not know for

certain that there are other cases

0:13:430:13:50

involved with Oxfam but what we do

know is that in Haiti and around the

0:13:500:13:54

world there are multiple cases, too

many cases, of exploitation,

0:13:540:14:00

economic bisexual, in the aid

organisation...

Not just Oxfam,

0:14:000:14:08

right across the sector?

I am, I am

loathe to say that there must be

0:14:080:14:17

more because we don't have the

evidence. Regarding Oxfam. What I

0:14:170:14:21

can say with this is the manner in

which Oxfam have responded to it

0:14:210:14:28

suggests, does not suggest a

commitment to retain that the

0:14:280:14:34

problem as a whole, rather they

wished to leave this in Haiti and in

0:14:340:14:37

the past. For example, the Dame

Barbara Stocking suggestion that

0:14:370:14:44

they did not help the authorities...

That suggests also a lack of respect

0:14:440:14:53

for Haiti and the rule of law in

Haiti.

She did not believe that the

0:14:530:14:57

police would be able to act, she saw

a country in the middle of an

0:14:570:15:04

earthquake and fundamental chaos. If

she thought she did not want to put

0:15:040:15:07

people off from giving, and the best

way was to show the perpetrators out

0:15:070:15:13

quietly, do you have any empathy or

understanding of that way of acting

0:15:130:15:19

for a charity to protect its main

efforts?

0:15:190:15:26

At this moment I would like to point

out, as has been pointed out, a lot

0:15:260:15:32

of work goes on by Oxfam and other

charities is absolutely vital in

0:15:320:15:34

places like Haiti and elsewhere but

in terms of those who did earnestly,

0:15:340:15:42

be it the individual donor or

states, would perhaps rather that

0:15:420:15:46

charities such as Oxfam were honest

and I think pushing it under the

0:15:460:15:53

carpet suggests that there might be

an unwillingness to look their

0:15:530:15:58

responsibility in the face, and in

cases such as in aid work...

I'm

0:15:580:16:08

going to stop you there to bring in

Andrew Mitchell who has been

0:16:080:16:14

listening patiently. That is the

sense, shoving under the carpet and

0:16:140:16:19

trying to make it go quiet rather

than explaining what happened?

This

0:16:190:16:24

is a shudderingly awful tale,

parable on every single level. --

0:16:240:16:33

terrible. And eclipse of the fact

that Oxfam is one of the most

0:16:330:16:37

brilliant humanitarian organisations

in the world. There are thousands

0:16:370:16:42

and thousands of very brave people

who work for Oxfam who will be

0:16:420:16:47

utterly distraught and horrified by

these stories today, recently I was

0:16:470:16:51

in Yemen where Oxfam as an

organisation has probably kept alive

0:16:510:16:57

5000 desperate people.

Do you think

DfID is wrong in terms of whether

0:16:570:17:06

money goes.

They must be sure that

there is zero tolerance for this

0:17:060:17:09

sort of thing and certain there was

public confidence that there is zero

0:17:090:17:13

tolerance. It is important that DfID

carries out that task so it can say

0:17:130:17:19

to the taxpayer and the public, we

know this money is really well spent

0:17:190:17:22

and the only way to do that is to

ensure you have a totally

0:17:220:17:27

transparent exercise now.

Were you

ever made aware of this kind of

0:17:270:17:32

sexual exploitation amongst charity

workers, at Oxfam when you were

0:17:320:17:37

Secretary of State?

I don't know

whether I knew about this particular

0:17:370:17:40

case, I can't be sure, but there

were cases, particularly involving

0:17:400:17:45

the United Nations, where this sort

of thing had happened. And in such

0:17:450:17:51

cases I was always very concerned to

ensure that the proper procedures

0:17:510:17:54

were followed and that if the police

needed to be called in, if there

0:17:540:17:59

were regulatory issues, they were

all thoroughly dealt with. On this

0:17:590:18:03

particular case I cannot remember at

this remove whether or not I knew

0:18:030:18:09

about it.

You don't recall

specifically hearing Oxfam?

No, I

0:18:090:18:13

don't, but that doesn't mean it did

not come up because there were, as I

0:18:130:18:18

say, similar cases with United

Nations peacekeeping soldiers which

0:18:180:18:24

was every bit as horrific because of

the protection issues involved. And

0:18:240:18:28

on those occasions I certainly did

everything I could as a minister to

0:18:280:18:33

ensure they were properly

investigated and the people who had

0:18:330:18:36

behaved badly were brought to

account.

You remembered the UN, you

0:18:360:18:41

would have remembered Oxfam or other

British charities if they had come

0:18:410:18:47

up?

I think I probably would but I

don't want to suggest in any way

0:18:470:18:51

that Oxfam hid it from the

department or from me at that time.

0:18:510:18:55

I just can't remember and the point

I want to make is that in this

0:18:550:18:59

terrible tale we must not forget

that Oxfam is one of the most

0:18:590:19:03

brilliant of the British NGOs and

charities which performed

0:19:030:19:07

life-saving work all around the

world in the most desperate places,

0:19:070:19:12

utterly brilliantly.

If taxpayers or

donors, supporters of Oxfam, are

0:19:120:19:17

watching this tonight, they know

that DfID is reconsidering, what

0:19:170:19:21

would you urge them to do or think?

I would urge them to allow DfID to

0:19:210:19:30

conduct its enquiries, to bring

total transparency to this and to

0:19:300:19:33

listen to what they said. I am

certain that DfID will discover that

0:19:330:19:37

if there were serious shortcomings

in Oxfam's approach, those have been

0:19:370:19:42

properly dealt with and addressed so

people can have confidence for the

0:19:420:19:46

future work of Oxfam but above all I

would want to draw their attention

0:19:460:19:50

to the utterly brilliant track

record of the organisation in the

0:19:500:19:53

past and not allow this terrible

episode two: the brilliant work that

0:19:530:19:57

Oxfam is doing all around the world.

Thank you very much for joining us.

0:19:570:20:02

This programme has received

some horrifying footage

0:20:020:20:06

which suggests that a nerve agent,

possibly Sarin, has been used

0:20:060:20:08

against civilians in rebel-held

Saraqib in north west Syria.

0:20:080:20:11

The short film, shot last Sunday

by hospital staff there,

0:20:110:20:14

shows several people lying

on the ground, some

0:20:140:20:17

deeply traumatised and

struggling to breathe.

0:20:170:20:19

Seven are later thought to have

died, including four young children.

0:20:190:20:23

The exact cause of their suffering

has not yet been verified

0:20:230:20:26

but the footage comes in a week

when UN investigators announced

0:20:260:20:30

that they are looking into multiple

reports that the Syrian forces have

0:20:300:20:33

used chlorine in attacks on at least

two rebel-held towns.

0:20:330:20:37

Some chemical weapons experts

believe there have been as many

0:20:370:20:40

as ten such attacks.

0:20:400:20:41

We should warn you that

Mike Thomson's report contains

0:20:410:20:43

extremely distressing and graphic

images from the start.

0:20:430:20:45

Images we don't broadcast lightly

but which those hospital staff

0:20:450:20:48

wanted to be shown.

0:20:480:20:56

You can see, he's having great

difficulty in breathing.

0:20:570:21:01

British doctor David Nott,

who has worked extensively in Syria

0:21:010:21:05

during the current conflict,

shows me a shocking video he has

0:21:050:21:08

been sent by a doctor

he helped train in rebel-held

0:21:080:21:11

Saraqib in Idlib.

0:21:110:21:17

The gruesome symptoms in front

of us, filmed last Sunday,

0:21:170:21:22

seem to indicate some kind of highly

toxic chemical attack.

0:21:220:21:26

To try to find out more,

we called the doctor

0:21:260:21:30

at the hospital in Saraqib who sent

David Nott the video.

0:21:300:21:34

Fearing reprisals against his

family, he did not want to be

0:21:340:21:37

filmed, but told me by phone

about the symptoms he saw.

0:21:370:21:44

Could they breath?

0:21:440:21:48

What do you think caused this?

0:21:480:21:55

What has happened to the children?

0:21:550:22:03

The doctor went on to tell me that

all the patients smelt strongly

0:22:080:22:12

of chlorine but David Nott believes

there has to be something even

0:22:120:22:14

more toxic involved,

most probably a nerve agent

0:22:140:22:16

such as sarin.

0:22:160:22:23

A lot of these patients that we saw

weren't breathing and with chlorine

0:22:230:22:26

you tend to hyperventilate,

you tend to try to breath and breath

0:22:260:22:28

to try and cough up all this amount

of fluid that is on the lung

0:22:280:22:32

but here I didn't see that.

0:22:320:22:35

I saw lots of patience in severe

respiratory distress and also

0:22:350:22:40

respiratory arrest as well and also

cardiac arrest, which is not really

0:22:400:22:43

seen in hyper chlorine attacks.

0:22:430:22:51

-- lots of patients.

0:22:520:22:55

In April last year, more than 80

people died in Khan Sheikhoun

0:22:550:22:58

in a chemical attack

using nerve agents.

0:22:580:23:05

Declaring that a red

line had been crossed,

0:23:050:23:08

US President Donald Trump ordered

a strike on the Syrian air force

0:23:080:23:11

base which had launched the assault.

0:23:110:23:15

To prevent and deter the spread

and use of deadly chemical weapons.

0:23:150:23:22

Some now believe that chlorine may

have been used in last week's

0:23:220:23:26

attacks on Saraqib to help avoid

such retaliation by

0:23:260:23:28

disguising the use of sarin.

0:23:280:23:34

First of all, the sarin is used

which does the real damage and then,

0:23:340:23:37

seconds or minutes later,

chlorine is dropped

0:23:370:23:39

which masks the sarin.

0:23:390:23:43

What the regime have found very

successfully from their assault

0:23:430:23:51

on Aleppo in December 2016,

is that if you put

0:23:530:23:55

gas on the ground,

that sinks into these cellars

0:23:550:23:57

because it's heavier than air,

it then forces the civilians,

0:23:570:24:00

who don't have gas masks to protect

them, up into the streets

0:24:000:24:03

where they are then susceptible

to bombs and bullets.

0:24:030:24:05

Surgeon David Nott, who has worked

in many different war zones,

0:24:050:24:07

still finds it hard to watch

the video he was sent

0:24:070:24:10

by doctors in Saraqib.

0:24:100:24:15

To see young children dying

in front of you with severe

0:24:150:24:18

respiratory problems was really

horrible to watch.

0:24:180:24:21

There's people on all fronts

who will say this is mocked up,

0:24:210:24:24

this is not real, but I can

guarantee you cannot fake

0:24:240:24:27

a three-year-old child to lie

on the floor and pretend that he's

0:24:270:24:29

dying of respiratory failure.

0:24:290:24:31

You cannot do that.

0:24:310:24:37

The use of chemical weapons

on Saraqib has yet to be officially

0:24:370:24:40

verified though the UN says

they have received many similar,

0:24:400:24:44

credible-sounding claims from other

doctors elsewhere in Syria

0:24:440:24:51

after a fortnight of

intensive air strikes.

0:24:510:24:54

But spokesman Jan Egeland says

he doesn't doubt how much the people

0:24:540:24:57

of Syria are suffering.

0:24:570:25:01

My heart is bleeding

really for the civilian

0:25:010:25:03

population I feel I failed.

0:25:030:25:11

I think the UN member

states have failed.

0:25:110:25:13

The international community has

failed the Syrian civilian

0:25:130:25:17

population in their hour of greatest

need but of course it's not

0:25:170:25:20

too late to save those

who have survived so far.

0:25:200:25:26

Maybe, but time is fast running out

and many on the ground worry that

0:25:260:25:29

even if the Saraqib deaths

are proved to have been caused

0:25:290:25:32

by sarin, the outside world

will continue to sit on its hands.

0:25:320:25:40

Mike Thomson reporting on that

footage that hospital staff sent

0:25:490:25:53

into Newsnight.

0:25:530:25:55

Punk rock music brought

Henry Rollins to the world,

0:25:560:25:58

but these days the former Black Flag

and Rollins Band singer spends

0:25:580:26:01

all his performance time

talking, not singing.

0:26:010:26:02

Rollins hasn't fronted a band

since about 2006, choosing instead

0:26:020:26:05

spoken word performances.

0:26:050:26:08

So what does a punk of the past make

of how those who come

0:26:080:26:11

behind him are channelling

their anger these days?

0:26:110:26:13

And as a self-confessed rich,

white and well-educated man,

0:26:130:26:15

what has he got left

to be angry about?

0:26:150:26:17

We sent our in-house pet punk,

John Sweeney, to meet him.

0:26:170:26:25

In my day, punks used

to go around with safety

0:26:270:26:30

pins through their noses

gobbing at people.

0:26:300:26:34

Henry Rollins was a

classier kind of punk.

0:26:340:26:36

Here he is in his pomp.

0:26:360:26:42

My name is Henry Rollins

and this is off-road tattoo!

0:26:420:26:47

He also ran at one point

a mobile tattoo parlour.

0:26:470:26:53

It didn't catch on.

0:26:530:26:56

I caught up with him

in London today.

0:26:560:27:04

As an old school punk rocker, how do

you feel about alt-right punks?

0:27:060:27:14

I think, it's just my opinion,

I see how easily a young person

0:27:150:27:21

might be taken with an alt-right

movement because it

0:27:210:27:23

capitalises on anger, on hurt.

0:27:230:27:26

The black guy looked at me and some

guy pushed me in the schoolyard

0:27:260:27:29

and I'm going to get back,

and that's how they recruit.

0:27:290:27:32

And I think these young people

are easily manipulated.

0:27:320:27:38

Those who seduce them,

they know how to work anger

0:27:380:27:41

and ignorance and bring these people

into the fold.

0:27:410:27:44

Is there an anger inside you?

0:27:440:27:45

Yeah.

0:27:450:27:49

It gets worse as I get older,

but I get better at finding

0:27:490:27:52

places for it to go.

0:27:520:27:56

What do you think of your president?

0:27:560:28:01

He's perhaps the wrongest guy

for the job and only once in my life

0:28:010:28:04

have I ever look at an American

president and thought

0:28:040:28:07

to myself, I could do

a better job than this guy.

0:28:070:28:15

Let's imagine you are Donald Trump's

National Security Adviser.

0:28:170:28:19

Trump calls you in to

the Oval Office and says, Henry,

0:28:190:28:22

what are we going to do about North

Korea?

0:28:220:28:24

You've been there.

0:28:240:28:25

What's your advice?

0:28:250:28:26

My advice would be, Mr President,

give me your phone.

0:28:260:28:28

You're never going to tweet

about North Korea again.

0:28:280:28:34

Because what you think

is tough talk is sure

0:28:340:28:38

Because what you think is tough talk

is sure provocation by the time it

0:28:380:28:41

gets to North Korea and it's not

0:28:410:28:43

the way to move forward.

0:28:430:28:44

Here's one thing my tours by Kim,

he was pretty impressive,

0:28:440:28:47

for the first three days his English

is like very much out of a book.

0:28:470:28:50

So you are from California?

0:28:500:28:55

I'm like, that's right, Kim.

0:28:550:29:00

So it's very like,

I learned this in school.

0:29:000:29:05

There's this one British guy who's

offended I won't be in a photo

0:29:050:29:08

and every time he comes near me I'm

like, man, get away from me,

0:29:080:29:12

because I just can't.

0:29:120:29:13

And so finally Kim steps in front

of me, his voice drops

0:29:130:29:15

and in perfect English he says,

how does he know you?

0:29:150:29:18

And I realised that he had been

playing me the whole time.

0:29:180:29:21

Kind of just, you know,

my English, it's not so good.

0:29:210:29:24

His English was great.

0:29:240:29:27

I met him in the breakfast room,

I think he likes me.

0:29:270:29:34

The rocket goes up to

space the other day.

0:29:340:29:39

Yeah, light relief.

0:29:390:29:40

Playing David Bowie's music.

0:29:400:29:43

Yeah, how great, how classy.

0:29:430:29:45

How did you meet David Bowie?

0:29:450:29:48

I've met David Bowie one time.

0:29:480:29:51

I just stood at attention and went

completely still because I didn't

0:29:510:29:54

want to bother him.

0:29:540:29:58

He was like a rare bird,

like shh, there he is,

0:29:580:30:01

they come through once a year!

0:30:010:30:07

And I'm like this is all I need,

David Bowie walked by me will be

0:30:070:30:11

in my storybook for ever.

0:30:110:30:12

David Bowie is passing from my right

to my left and I'm just...

0:30:120:30:15

He stops, points at me and says ah!

0:30:150:30:17

Rollins!

0:30:170:30:22

I go running towards him, my right

arm coming out like a lance,

0:30:220:30:25

not knowing what I'll say

when I arrive and I think I said...

0:30:250:30:28

He...he...huagh!

0:30:280:30:31

Because I was all gooey

inside because I'm quite a fan.

0:30:310:30:35

I must have said, hello, David.

0:30:350:30:39

And immediately he initiates this

conversation like we had been

0:30:390:30:41

talking for a few minutes,

like it has already been pre-rolled.

0:30:410:30:44

He said, you said something very

interesting in an interview

0:30:440:30:47

for a magazine last month

and proceeded to quote me

0:30:470:30:52

multiple paragraphs

of paraphrasing me back to me.

0:30:520:31:00

I'm a fan who gets

recognised by other people.

0:31:000:31:07

But I'm mainly a fan

and so when I meet people I admire,

0:31:080:31:11

like musicians and stuff,

I have to be very careful

0:31:110:31:13

to remain articulate.

0:31:130:31:14

Except all I want to do is...

0:31:140:31:16

"God, your great!"

0:31:160:31:17

Because those records

mean so much to me.

0:31:170:31:19

I have leaned on those

records so much.

0:31:190:31:22

Whenever I run into a member

of The Damned, I see

0:31:220:31:25

Captain Sensible at some festival,

it's like, hello Henry.

0:31:250:31:27

I'm like, that's my name,

how do you remember me?!

0:31:270:31:30

And I've known him

for, like, 100 years.

0:31:300:31:32

Kind of, sort of.

0:31:320:31:36

And those people mean so much to me

but rarely can I have a cogent

0:31:360:31:39

conversation with these people

because I'm just in awe.

0:31:390:31:41

Great.

0:31:410:31:42

Do you fancy an arm wrestle?

0:31:420:31:44

No.

0:31:440:31:45

I don't want to have my shoulder

pulled out of joint!

0:31:450:31:47

Fair enough!

0:31:470:31:50

Sweeney and Rollins there.

0:31:500:31:51

That's all we have time for tonight.

0:31:510:31:53

Evan is here on Monday.

0:31:530:31:55

Goodnight.

0:31:550:32:03

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS