09/02/2018 Newsnight


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09/02/2018

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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He was a 68-year-old man

using an Oxfam villa to invite young

0:00:060:00:14

women to use for sex in a country

that had just been through

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a devastating earthquake.

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What bit of that was

normal or acceptable?

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It is not normal or acceptable,

that is what we said at the time

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and I will say now.

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Tonight...

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The government exists has no

tolerance.

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How rife is it within the charity

and the sector at large?

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As the Prime Minister orders a full

and urgent investigation,

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we'll ask what went wrong.

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Also tonight...

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As Syria's war rumbles on,

Newsnight receives fresh footage

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that suggests the Assad regime has

returned to chemical warfare.

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It looks like significant chemical

weapons attack, without shadow of a

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doubt.

And this could well be Sarin?

It could well be.

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Raising the Black Flag.

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America's bad boy meets

Newsnight's bad boy.

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Henry Rollins meets John Sweeney.

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We're as terrified as you are.

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Um...

Do you fancy an arm wrestle?

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Good evening.

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In the last few minutes and

apartment but International

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Development has announced it is

reviewing work with Oxfam after The

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Times revealed documents which

suggested the charity had covered up

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a sexual exploitation charity in

Haiti. Three charity workers

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including the Country Director

resigned and Paul Morgan dismissed

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after an investigation uncovered

various examples of inappropriate

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behaviour, including the use of

positives, bullying and intimidation

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at the height of the relief effort

following a devastating earthquake

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in 2011.

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Today the former chief executive

of Oxfam told this programme

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she was aware of other,

earlier cases of sexual exploitation

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by staff members whilst

she was in charge of the charity.

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Tonight, questions are being asked

about why Oxfam failed to warn other

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aid agencies of the behaviour,

as Oxfam admitted it could not

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guarantee the former employees had

not taken up other jobs among

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vulnerable people in disaster

zones around the world.

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The 2010 earthquake in

Port-au-Prince killed 220,000 people

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and left another 1.5

million homeless.

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The international relief rescue

was huge and at its very

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centre, the renowned British charity

and household name, Oxfam.

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Today an investigation

by The Times revealed

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that amidst the devastation and

trauma of the quake-ravaged country,

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members of the charity's staff

were engaged in sexual exploitation,

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bullying and intimidation, as well

as the downloading of pornography.

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Oxfam was made aware

of what it called

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a culture of impunity

at the

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time and allowed three men

to resign, sacking four others for

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gross misconduct.

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The press release issued

at the time made no mention

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of sexual misconduct

but the confidential report stated

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it could not rule out

the possibility that

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the prostitutes were under age.

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One of the men allowed

to resign without

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disciplinary action was the country

director, Roland Van Hauwermeiren,

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who admitted using prostitutes

at the villa rented for him by Oxfam

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with charitable funds.

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The chief executive

at the time, Barbara

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Stocking, offered him

a dignified exit,

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including a month's pay,

to

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avoid repercussions

on the charity's work and staff.

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Oxfam's mission statement

champions helping

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marginalised women

to claim their rights

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and empowering people

to

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create a secure future.

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So why were the men

involved never publicly

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disciplined?

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Why did the charity allow

this perception of a

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cover-up?

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And how can taxpayers be sure that

money is being spent by

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organisations with thorough

oversight of the actions of their

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staff?

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Before we came on air,

I talked to Barbara Stocking,

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Oxfam's former CEO.

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She stood down from

the role in 2013.

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I asked her why she hadn't

investigated the people involved.

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The first moment I heard

back in 2011 we sent

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an investigation team.

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Also, it's not true that it

wasn't transparent.

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We put a press release out

when the investigation

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team was investigating.

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We put a press release

out after that as well.

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Hang on a second.

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The Charity Commission said they're

still awaiting the full report

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and the man at the centre of this,

your country director,

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Roland van Hauwermeiren,

was not even fired.

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Let's take one at a time.

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The Charity Commission said

at the time, because we informed

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them about it, reported to them

about it, and they said

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that there were no regulatory

concerns about it.

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That's what happened at the time.

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We also actually told DfID.

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Why do they say then that they're

still awaiting the full report?

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They're still awaiting

that report from you.

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I don't know because I'm not

still there but at the time

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there was no question that they had

said, they were happy

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that the trustees were taking this

seriously and dealing with it.

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They were happy that a man hadn't

even been fired for having

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exploitative sex with prostitutes

in a disaster strewn

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country like Haiti?

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Well, let me talk about

that, that's the second

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point of the question.

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The reason, you go

in, you investigate.

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The first thing they did was talk

to the country director.

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At that time he confessed to, well,

his own behaviour at least,

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we were very concerned if I remember

right that we thought

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there were more people in this

and we wanted to make sure

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we could investigate and get

all of that out which is why,

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because he'd already said,

I'll resign, I'll go,

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that we said we would do that.

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And that took...

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What?!

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So your country director had

admitted to exploitative sexual

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behaviour, predatory behaviour

with young women, prostitutes,

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in a country he was meant to be

helping and you just thought fine?

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No, of course not.

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You thought we'll let him go

and you paid him an extra month.

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Because we wanted him

there because what we were afraid

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of was that there were more people

there and we didn't immediately want

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that exposed and we wanted to make

sure we could get in and also make

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sure there was not any

bullying of the people.

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So you used somebody

who was basically an offender

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to help you with the investigation?

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He was an offender because he

had used prostitutes.

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He was a 68-year-old man

using an Oxfam villa to invite young

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women to use for sex in a country

that had just been through

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a devastating earthquake.

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What bit of that was

normal or acceptable?

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It's not normal or acceptable,

that's what we said at the time

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and I will say now.

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That was completely unacceptable

which is why we did

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the investigation and why,

out of nine people that

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were investigated...

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You literally carried

on paying him...

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For one month.

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Yeah, because you cut

a deal with him.

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Why would you cut a deal?

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Because we wanted to make sure

that we could get the whole lot

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of them dealt with and out

of the way when it became clear

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there was a group of men

who were doing this.

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Do you know where he works now?

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Do you know where the three others

that were fired work?

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Of course I wouldn't,

I'm not in Oxfam, I haven't been

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in Oxfam for five years.

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He was 68, I doubt if he's

worked at all, frankly.

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There were three others,

we don't know where they are.

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We would never...

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Well, they have gone and have

to make their own lives,

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we would never give them any

reference or anything whatsoever.

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Hang on a second, we don't even know

who those people are,

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they have not been identified.

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For all you know they could be

working in another aid agency,

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they could be working with young

women again or with children.

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What we did quite a lot at that time

with all the agencies,

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and being clear, all the agencies,

not in Haiti only but in countries

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where there were emergencies,

where there were conflicts,

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we will all working and working

together to try to make sure that

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actually nobody that we knew was not

responsible who had that sort

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of behaviour, would actually come

into any other aid agencies.

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That had to be done.

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Actually there are

personnel issues...

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I'm confused.

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Do you actually know

where these people are now?

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I don't know...

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Do you know that

they're not working?

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I would not know because I've been

out of Oxfam for five years,

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you would have to ask

somebody else that.

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But isn't it extraordinary that

you knew about all of this for seven

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years and yet it has only come

to light, the kind of allegations...

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No, not at all.

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As I said, we went in

and we investigated fully.

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Out of nine people that

were investigated, only

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two were exonerated.

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You don't think there's any improper

behaviour on the part of Oxfam,

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just to clarify that?

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I don't think so.

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You may have done something

different in the past but these

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are very difficult circumstances.

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What do you mean?

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What I mean is, we investigated...

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What I would expect

an organisation to do is...

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As you know, these sorts of things

are around in all sorts

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of parts of the world.

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What to expect the agency to do

is to investigate fully and then

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to actually deal with those people

and actually stop them

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working and get them out

and all the rest of it.

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That, you know...

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Get them out quietly,

carry on paying them if need be, do

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a deal which is what we know about.

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No, no, no, we dismissed four

of those as well out of that.

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Do you know what, your mission

statement is championing

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equal rights for women.

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Absolutely.

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Helping marginalised

women claim their rights.

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Yes, yes.

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So why wouldn't your first instinct

be to say, this is shocking,

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we are rooting it out,

we're telling the world

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that we've done this.

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We did do.

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We did do.

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As I said, we put out

a press release about

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when the investigation went in...

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So you're saying nothing new,

nothing new today, nothing

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new about the story at all?

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Only things that come

in that we have no idea

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where they come from but at the time

but at the time...

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Do you think you treated your

country director in the right way,

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letting him resign before

he was fired, paying him off,

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yes, only for a month

but still letting him do

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a deal on his own terms?

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I don't know, I might now, seven

years later and with hindsight,

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do something different

but at the time that seemed

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like the right thing to do to make

sure that this whole thing got

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closed down as fast

as we could possibly do it.

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Was this the first time you ever

heard of exploitative sexual

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behaviour going on at Oxfam?

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No.

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No, because, no, I can only think

of one or two that come to mind

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but basically we had already agreed

that any sign that anybody

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was doing this and there

would be an investigation.

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That investigation was noted

and went to our trustee

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board once a quarter.

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From 2011...

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But before that.

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Before that you knew

that there was sexual

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exploitative behaviour?

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Sexual exploitation was going on,

I can't say it is going on,

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was going on, we knew

in a lot of places...

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With Oxfam staff.

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With some Oxfam staff who had been

investigated over...

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I was there 12 years,

I can think of probably one,

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formerly, that I know of that

absolutely was dismissed.

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Wouldn't it have been so simple

to send out a really clear signal

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by getting your country director

fired and investigated by police

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instead of allowing him to do a deal

that might allow for more cases

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to come up?

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We took legal advice in Haiti

and it was made quite clear

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that the police would not be

interested in this.

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Thank you very much.

0:11:230:11:24

Thank you.

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Dame Barbara Stocking. The

government is reviewing its work for

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Oxfam in light of these allegations

and in a statement, said it

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acknowledged hundreds of Oxfam staff

had done no wrong but added the way

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this appalling abuse of vulnerable

people was dealt with raises serious

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questions that Oxfam must answer.

There is more on their story in The

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Times tomorrow.

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As you heard in that interview,

Dame Barbara couldn't say for sure

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that the dismissed staff hadn't gone

on to work for other

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aid organisations.

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The Times has discovered that

the man at the heart of the story -

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country director Roland van

Hauwermeiren - did work

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elsewhere afterwards,

in a senior role for a French

0:12:090:12:11

charity at a project in Bangladesh.

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The bosses of that organisation have

even said they received positive

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references about Mr van

Hauwermeiren from Oxfam.

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Full details are in

the Times tomorrow.

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Well joining me now from Nottingham

is the MP Andrew Mitchell -

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he was the Development Secretary

at the time of the problems

0:12:310:12:34

Oxfam had in Haiti.

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And with me in the studio

is Anthony Stewart, chair

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of the Haiti Support Group,

which works to improve

0:12:370:12:39

the life of people in Haiti.

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I'll start with Anthony, there is a

lot to unpack from what Dame Barbara

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said, first of all that she was

aware of cases of sexual

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exploitation by Oxfam staff, even

before the 2011 allegations. Was the

0:12:530:12:57

way Oxfam behaved in 2011 with what

they discovered the right one?

When

0:12:570:13:07

it comes to my reaction for the

interview and the statements in 2011

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and today, they are very keen on

talking about something that

0:13:130:13:17

happened in the past and they didn't

particularly want to talk about

0:13:170:13:20

again today. And they want to keep

that in the past but in Haiti there

0:13:200:13:25

is a saying, the giver of the blow

forgets but the bearer of the scars

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never does. I feel that to respond

to these allegations by removing the

0:13:290:13:39

people in question tends to

highlight it as an isolated incident

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but it is not. We do not know for

certain that there are other cases

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involved with Oxfam but what we do

know is that in Haiti and around the

0:13:500:13:54

world there are multiple cases, too

many cases, of exploitation,

0:13:540:14:00

economic bisexual, in the aid

organisation...

Not just Oxfam,

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right across the sector?

I am, I am

loathe to say that there must be

0:14:080:14:17

more because we don't have the

evidence. Regarding Oxfam. What I

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can say with this is the manner in

which Oxfam have responded to it

0:14:210:14:28

suggests, does not suggest a

commitment to retain that the

0:14:280:14:34

problem as a whole, rather they

wished to leave this in Haiti and in

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the past. For example, the Dame

Barbara Stocking suggestion that

0:14:370:14:44

they did not help the authorities...

That suggests also a lack of respect

0:14:440:14:53

for Haiti and the rule of law in

Haiti.

She did not believe that the

0:14:530:14:57

police would be able to act, she saw

a country in the middle of an

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earthquake and fundamental chaos. If

she thought she did not want to put

0:15:040:15:07

people off from giving, and the best

way was to show the perpetrators out

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quietly, do you have any empathy or

understanding of that way of acting

0:15:130:15:19

for a charity to protect its main

efforts?

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At this moment I would like to point

out, as has been pointed out, a lot

0:15:260:15:32

of work goes on by Oxfam and other

charities is absolutely vital in

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places like Haiti and elsewhere but

in terms of those who did earnestly,

0:15:340:15:42

be it the individual donor or

states, would perhaps rather that

0:15:420:15:46

charities such as Oxfam were honest

and I think pushing it under the

0:15:460:15:53

carpet suggests that there might be

an unwillingness to look their

0:15:530:15:58

responsibility in the face, and in

cases such as in aid work...

I'm

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going to stop you there to bring in

Andrew Mitchell who has been

0:16:080:16:14

listening patiently. That is the

sense, shoving under the carpet and

0:16:140:16:19

trying to make it go quiet rather

than explaining what happened?

This

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is a shudderingly awful tale,

parable on every single level. --

0:16:240:16:33

terrible. And eclipse of the fact

that Oxfam is one of the most

0:16:330:16:37

brilliant humanitarian organisations

in the world. There are thousands

0:16:370:16:42

and thousands of very brave people

who work for Oxfam who will be

0:16:420:16:47

utterly distraught and horrified by

these stories today, recently I was

0:16:470:16:51

in Yemen where Oxfam as an

organisation has probably kept alive

0:16:510:16:57

5000 desperate people.

Do you think

DfID is wrong in terms of whether

0:16:570:17:06

money goes.

They must be sure that

there is zero tolerance for this

0:17:060:17:09

sort of thing and certain there was

public confidence that there is zero

0:17:090:17:13

tolerance. It is important that DfID

carries out that task so it can say

0:17:130:17:19

to the taxpayer and the public, we

know this money is really well spent

0:17:190:17:22

and the only way to do that is to

ensure you have a totally

0:17:220:17:27

transparent exercise now.

Were you

ever made aware of this kind of

0:17:270:17:32

sexual exploitation amongst charity

workers, at Oxfam when you were

0:17:320:17:37

Secretary of State?

I don't know

whether I knew about this particular

0:17:370:17:40

case, I can't be sure, but there

were cases, particularly involving

0:17:400:17:45

the United Nations, where this sort

of thing had happened. And in such

0:17:450:17:51

cases I was always very concerned to

ensure that the proper procedures

0:17:510:17:54

were followed and that if the police

needed to be called in, if there

0:17:540:17:59

were regulatory issues, they were

all thoroughly dealt with. On this

0:17:590:18:03

particular case I cannot remember at

this remove whether or not I knew

0:18:030:18:09

about it.

You don't recall

specifically hearing Oxfam?

No, I

0:18:090:18:13

don't, but that doesn't mean it did

not come up because there were, as I

0:18:130:18:18

say, similar cases with United

Nations peacekeeping soldiers which

0:18:180:18:24

was every bit as horrific because of

the protection issues involved. And

0:18:240:18:28

on those occasions I certainly did

everything I could as a minister to

0:18:280:18:33

ensure they were properly

investigated and the people who had

0:18:330:18:36

behaved badly were brought to

account.

You remembered the UN, you

0:18:360:18:41

would have remembered Oxfam or other

British charities if they had come

0:18:410:18:47

up?

I think I probably would but I

don't want to suggest in any way

0:18:470:18:51

that Oxfam hid it from the

department or from me at that time.

0:18:510:18:55

I just can't remember and the point

I want to make is that in this

0:18:550:18:59

terrible tale we must not forget

that Oxfam is one of the most

0:18:590:19:03

brilliant of the British NGOs and

charities which performed

0:19:030:19:07

life-saving work all around the

world in the most desperate places,

0:19:070:19:12

utterly brilliantly.

If taxpayers or

donors, supporters of Oxfam, are

0:19:120:19:17

watching this tonight, they know

that DfID is reconsidering, what

0:19:170:19:21

would you urge them to do or think?

I would urge them to allow DfID to

0:19:210:19:30

conduct its enquiries, to bring

total transparency to this and to

0:19:300:19:33

listen to what they said. I am

certain that DfID will discover that

0:19:330:19:37

if there were serious shortcomings

in Oxfam's approach, those have been

0:19:370:19:42

properly dealt with and addressed so

people can have confidence for the

0:19:420:19:46

future work of Oxfam but above all I

would want to draw their attention

0:19:460:19:50

to the utterly brilliant track

record of the organisation in the

0:19:500:19:53

past and not allow this terrible

episode two: the brilliant work that

0:19:530:19:57

Oxfam is doing all around the world.

Thank you very much for joining us.

0:19:570:20:02

This programme has received

some horrifying footage

0:20:020:20:06

which suggests that a nerve agent,

possibly Sarin, has been used

0:20:060:20:08

against civilians in rebel-held

Saraqib in north west Syria.

0:20:080:20:11

The short film, shot last Sunday

by hospital staff there,

0:20:110:20:14

shows several people lying

on the ground, some

0:20:140:20:17

deeply traumatised and

struggling to breathe.

0:20:170:20:19

Seven are later thought to have

died, including four young children.

0:20:190:20:23

The exact cause of their suffering

has not yet been verified

0:20:230:20:26

but the footage comes in a week

when UN investigators announced

0:20:260:20:30

that they are looking into multiple

reports that the Syrian forces have

0:20:300:20:33

used chlorine in attacks on at least

two rebel-held towns.

0:20:330:20:37

Some chemical weapons experts

believe there have been as many

0:20:370:20:40

as ten such attacks.

0:20:400:20:41

We should warn you that

Mike Thomson's report contains

0:20:410:20:43

extremely distressing and graphic

images from the start.

0:20:430:20:45

Images we don't broadcast lightly

but which those hospital staff

0:20:450:20:48

wanted to be shown.

0:20:480:20:56

You can see, he's having great

difficulty in breathing.

0:20:570:21:01

British doctor David Nott,

who has worked extensively in Syria

0:21:010:21:05

during the current conflict,

shows me a shocking video he has

0:21:050:21:08

been sent by a doctor

he helped train in rebel-held

0:21:080:21:11

Saraqib in Idlib.

0:21:110:21:17

The gruesome symptoms in front

of us, filmed last Sunday,

0:21:170:21:22

seem to indicate some kind of highly

toxic chemical attack.

0:21:220:21:26

To try to find out more,

we called the doctor

0:21:260:21:30

at the hospital in Saraqib who sent

David Nott the video.

0:21:300:21:34

Fearing reprisals against his

family, he did not want to be

0:21:340:21:37

filmed, but told me by phone

about the symptoms he saw.

0:21:370:21:44

Could they breath?

0:21:440:21:48

What do you think caused this?

0:21:480:21:55

What has happened to the children?

0:21:550:22:03

The doctor went on to tell me that

all the patients smelt strongly

0:22:080:22:12

of chlorine but David Nott believes

there has to be something even

0:22:120:22:14

more toxic involved,

most probably a nerve agent

0:22:140:22:16

such as sarin.

0:22:160:22:23

A lot of these patients that we saw

weren't breathing and with chlorine

0:22:230:22:26

you tend to hyperventilate,

you tend to try to breath and breath

0:22:260:22:28

to try and cough up all this amount

of fluid that is on the lung

0:22:280:22:32

but here I didn't see that.

0:22:320:22:35

I saw lots of patience in severe

respiratory distress and also

0:22:350:22:40

respiratory arrest as well and also

cardiac arrest, which is not really

0:22:400:22:43

seen in hyper chlorine attacks.

0:22:430:22:51

-- lots of patients.

0:22:520:22:55

In April last year, more than 80

people died in Khan Sheikhoun

0:22:550:22:58

in a chemical attack

using nerve agents.

0:22:580:23:05

Declaring that a red

line had been crossed,

0:23:050:23:08

US President Donald Trump ordered

a strike on the Syrian air force

0:23:080:23:11

base which had launched the assault.

0:23:110:23:15

To prevent and deter the spread

and use of deadly chemical weapons.

0:23:150:23:22

Some now believe that chlorine may

have been used in last week's

0:23:220:23:26

attacks on Saraqib to help avoid

such retaliation by

0:23:260:23:28

disguising the use of sarin.

0:23:280:23:34

First of all, the sarin is used

which does the real damage and then,

0:23:340:23:37

seconds or minutes later,

chlorine is dropped

0:23:370:23:39

which masks the sarin.

0:23:390:23:43

What the regime have found very

successfully from their assault

0:23:430:23:51

on Aleppo in December 2016,

is that if you put

0:23:530:23:55

gas on the ground,

that sinks into these cellars

0:23:550:23:57

because it's heavier than air,

it then forces the civilians,

0:23:570:24:00

who don't have gas masks to protect

them, up into the streets

0:24:000:24:03

where they are then susceptible

to bombs and bullets.

0:24:030:24:05

Surgeon David Nott, who has worked

in many different war zones,

0:24:050:24:07

still finds it hard to watch

the video he was sent

0:24:070:24:10

by doctors in Saraqib.

0:24:100:24:15

To see young children dying

in front of you with severe

0:24:150:24:18

respiratory problems was really

horrible to watch.

0:24:180:24:21

There's people on all fronts

who will say this is mocked up,

0:24:210:24:24

this is not real, but I can

guarantee you cannot fake

0:24:240:24:27

a three-year-old child to lie

on the floor and pretend that he's

0:24:270:24:29

dying of respiratory failure.

0:24:290:24:31

You cannot do that.

0:24:310:24:37

The use of chemical weapons

on Saraqib has yet to be officially

0:24:370:24:40

verified though the UN says

they have received many similar,

0:24:400:24:44

credible-sounding claims from other

doctors elsewhere in Syria

0:24:440:24:51

after a fortnight of

intensive air strikes.

0:24:510:24:54

But spokesman Jan Egeland says

he doesn't doubt how much the people

0:24:540:24:57

of Syria are suffering.

0:24:570:25:01

My heart is bleeding

really for the civilian

0:25:010:25:03

population I feel I failed.

0:25:030:25:11

I think the UN member

states have failed.

0:25:110:25:13

The international community has

failed the Syrian civilian

0:25:130:25:17

population in their hour of greatest

need but of course it's not

0:25:170:25:20

too late to save those

who have survived so far.

0:25:200:25:26

Maybe, but time is fast running out

and many on the ground worry that

0:25:260:25:29

even if the Saraqib deaths

are proved to have been caused

0:25:290:25:32

by sarin, the outside world

will continue to sit on its hands.

0:25:320:25:40

Mike Thomson reporting on that

footage that hospital staff sent

0:25:490:25:53

into Newsnight.

0:25:530:25:55

Punk rock music brought

Henry Rollins to the world,

0:25:560:25:58

but these days the former Black Flag

and Rollins Band singer spends

0:25:580:26:01

all his performance time

talking, not singing.

0:26:010:26:02

Rollins hasn't fronted a band

since about 2006, choosing instead

0:26:020:26:05

spoken word performances.

0:26:050:26:08

So what does a punk of the past make

of how those who come

0:26:080:26:11

behind him are channelling

their anger these days?

0:26:110:26:13

And as a self-confessed rich,

white and well-educated man,

0:26:130:26:15

what has he got left

to be angry about?

0:26:150:26:17

We sent our in-house pet punk,

John Sweeney, to meet him.

0:26:170:26:25

In my day, punks used

to go around with safety

0:26:270:26:30

pins through their noses

gobbing at people.

0:26:300:26:34

Henry Rollins was a

classier kind of punk.

0:26:340:26:36

Here he is in his pomp.

0:26:360:26:42

My name is Henry Rollins

and this is off-road tattoo!

0:26:420:26:47

He also ran at one point

a mobile tattoo parlour.

0:26:470:26:53

It didn't catch on.

0:26:530:26:56

I caught up with him

in London today.

0:26:560:27:04

As an old school punk rocker, how do

you feel about alt-right punks?

0:27:060:27:14

I think, it's just my opinion,

I see how easily a young person

0:27:150:27:21

might be taken with an alt-right

movement because it

0:27:210:27:23

capitalises on anger, on hurt.

0:27:230:27:26

The black guy looked at me and some

guy pushed me in the schoolyard

0:27:260:27:29

and I'm going to get back,

and that's how they recruit.

0:27:290:27:32

And I think these young people

are easily manipulated.

0:27:320:27:38

Those who seduce them,

they know how to work anger

0:27:380:27:41

and ignorance and bring these people

into the fold.

0:27:410:27:44

Is there an anger inside you?

0:27:440:27:45

Yeah.

0:27:450:27:49

It gets worse as I get older,

but I get better at finding

0:27:490:27:52

places for it to go.

0:27:520:27:56

What do you think of your president?

0:27:560:28:01

He's perhaps the wrongest guy

for the job and only once in my life

0:28:010:28:04

have I ever look at an American

president and thought

0:28:040:28:07

to myself, I could do

a better job than this guy.

0:28:070:28:15

Let's imagine you are Donald Trump's

National Security Adviser.

0:28:170:28:19

Trump calls you in to

the Oval Office and says, Henry,

0:28:190:28:22

what are we going to do about North

Korea?

0:28:220:28:24

You've been there.

0:28:240:28:25

What's your advice?

0:28:250:28:26

My advice would be, Mr President,

give me your phone.

0:28:260:28:28

You're never going to tweet

about North Korea again.

0:28:280:28:34

Because what you think

is tough talk is sure

0:28:340:28:38

Because what you think is tough talk

is sure provocation by the time it

0:28:380:28:41

gets to North Korea and it's not

0:28:410:28:43

the way to move forward.

0:28:430:28:44

Here's one thing my tours by Kim,

he was pretty impressive,

0:28:440:28:47

for the first three days his English

is like very much out of a book.

0:28:470:28:50

So you are from California?

0:28:500:28:55

I'm like, that's right, Kim.

0:28:550:29:00

So it's very like,

I learned this in school.

0:29:000:29:05

There's this one British guy who's

offended I won't be in a photo

0:29:050:29:08

and every time he comes near me I'm

like, man, get away from me,

0:29:080:29:12

because I just can't.

0:29:120:29:13

And so finally Kim steps in front

of me, his voice drops

0:29:130:29:15

and in perfect English he says,

how does he know you?

0:29:150:29:18

And I realised that he had been

playing me the whole time.

0:29:180:29:21

Kind of just, you know,

my English, it's not so good.

0:29:210:29:24

His English was great.

0:29:240:29:27

I met him in the breakfast room,

I think he likes me.

0:29:270:29:34

The rocket goes up to

space the other day.

0:29:340:29:39

Yeah, light relief.

0:29:390:29:40

Playing David Bowie's music.

0:29:400:29:43

Yeah, how great, how classy.

0:29:430:29:45

How did you meet David Bowie?

0:29:450:29:48

I've met David Bowie one time.

0:29:480:29:51

I just stood at attention and went

completely still because I didn't

0:29:510:29:54

want to bother him.

0:29:540:29:58

He was like a rare bird,

like shh, there he is,

0:29:580:30:01

they come through once a year!

0:30:010:30:07

And I'm like this is all I need,

David Bowie walked by me will be

0:30:070:30:11

in my storybook for ever.

0:30:110:30:12

David Bowie is passing from my right

to my left and I'm just...

0:30:120:30:15

He stops, points at me and says ah!

0:30:150:30:17

Rollins!

0:30:170:30:22

I go running towards him, my right

arm coming out like a lance,

0:30:220:30:25

not knowing what I'll say

when I arrive and I think I said...

0:30:250:30:28

He...he...huagh!

0:30:280:30:31

Because I was all gooey

inside because I'm quite a fan.

0:30:310:30:35

I must have said, hello, David.

0:30:350:30:39

And immediately he initiates this

conversation like we had been

0:30:390:30:41

talking for a few minutes,

like it has already been pre-rolled.

0:30:410:30:44

He said, you said something very

interesting in an interview

0:30:440:30:47

for a magazine last month

and proceeded to quote me

0:30:470:30:52

multiple paragraphs

of paraphrasing me back to me.

0:30:520:31:00

I'm a fan who gets

recognised by other people.

0:31:000:31:07

But I'm mainly a fan

and so when I meet people I admire,

0:31:080:31:11

like musicians and stuff,

I have to be very careful

0:31:110:31:13

to remain articulate.

0:31:130:31:14

Except all I want to do is...

0:31:140:31:16

"God, your great!"

0:31:160:31:17

Because those records

mean so much to me.

0:31:170:31:19

I have leaned on those

records so much.

0:31:190:31:22

Whenever I run into a member

of The Damned, I see

0:31:220:31:25

Captain Sensible at some festival,

it's like, hello Henry.

0:31:250:31:27

I'm like, that's my name,

how do you remember me?!

0:31:270:31:30

And I've known him

for, like, 100 years.

0:31:300:31:32

Kind of, sort of.

0:31:320:31:36

And those people mean so much to me

but rarely can I have a cogent

0:31:360:31:39

conversation with these people

because I'm just in awe.

0:31:390:31:41

Great.

0:31:410:31:42

Do you fancy an arm wrestle?

0:31:420:31:44

No.

0:31:440:31:45

I don't want to have my shoulder

pulled out of joint!

0:31:450:31:47

Fair enough!

0:31:470:31:50

Sweeney and Rollins there.

0:31:500:31:51

That's all we have time for tonight.

0:31:510:31:53

Evan is here on Monday.

0:31:530:31:55

Goodnight.

0:31:550:32:03