12/02/2018 Newsnight


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12/02/2018

With Evan Davis. Young black men talk about stop and search, the Charity Commission launches an inquiry into Oxfam in Haiti, and South Africa prepares for a new president.


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LineFromTo

The first time I got

stopped and searched

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I was around 11 years old,

12 years old.

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The police would say it's

because there's been robberies

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in the area but they wouldn't tell

us a description that we fitted,

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except probably for being black.

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Tonight:

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The views of young black men

on what it means to be a target

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of police stop and search.

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So what would you do

if you were running the police

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in London, trying to deal

with knife crime?

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You might think that

stop and search works,

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but is that at the cost

of community relations?

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We'll ask the Deputy Mayor

for Policing and Crime in London

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whether she thinks stop and search

is the right.

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Oxfam - the Charities Commission

opens a statutory inquiry

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into allegations of misconduct

in Haiti, but are they investigating

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a crime or a cover-up?

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We'll discuss charity transparency.

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And South Africa stands on the brink

of a historic change of president.

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Is this a second chance

for the country to put

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itself on the right road?

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Hello.

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How do we stop knife crime?

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And what should be

the role of police stop

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and search in preventing it?

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It's quite a dilemma, this,

in London right now,

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because knife crime in the capital

is at a six-year high.

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Last year there were 134 knife

murders in the capital,

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and I'm afraid there was another

death yesterday afternoon.

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Everybody acknowledges the tragedy

of it, but what do we do?

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Now, the Met Commissioner Cressida

Dick has said she thinks that more

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stop and search may be useful.

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After all, knife crime rose

just as stop and search

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was being scaled back.

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So that's one view.

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But there is a cost to stop

and search in the goodwill

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that is lost from the black

community who know they are the ones

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who are stopped most often,

particularly young black men.

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Before we hear that

perspective, take a look

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at some key statistics on this.

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The starkest figure is this -

in the last 12 months,

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the chance of being stopped

in London was almost five

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times higher for black

rather than white men.

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Hence the sense that it is

a racially-charged policy.

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But of course the police can say

that reflects where the crime is.

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So the crucial piece of data

is whether they are stopping more

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innocent black men than white men.

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And there is a small amount

of evidence for that.

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In the last 12 months,

looking at 15-to-19-year-olds,

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29% of searches led to some

follow-up on white men;

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25% did on black men.

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It's not a huge difference but, yes,

the searches on black men

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are marginally less fruitful

than those on the white,

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which suggests the police don't

have the balance quite right

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and are searching

too many black men.

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But to stress the dilemma,

let's remember that it is young

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black men who need protecting -

they were the victims of 29%

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of knife homicides

in London last year.

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Well, that's the dry data.

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Hear now what young black men

in the capital themselves think.

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Film-maker Sarah O'Connell has been

finding out exactly that for us.

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My name is PJ Taylor, I'm 28 years

old and I've been stopped and

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searched about eight or nine times.

It gets countless after a while,

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it's something that happens. Oh,

stop and search today, what

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happened, and then you talk about

something else. The first time was

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when I was 14, playing on the estate

in Brixton and the police were on

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foot, they came up to us and said

they were going to stop and search

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us. We had to stand up against the

wall and they threatened us about

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running away. There was no level of

respect, we just stood there,

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watched each other gets urged and

emptied the pockets, getting

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frisked, front and behind, top to

bottom.

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Nothing was explained to us, they

just done it. Like I said, we were

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14 years old, we were just playing

out. How I felt at the time, scared,

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hoping I don't get in trouble with

my mum because I want to play

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tomorrow after school.

My

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tomorrow after school.

My name is

Shanin Omara, I'm 32 and have been

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stopped and searched at least 20

times in my life. They start by

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saying that they've had lots of

incidents in this area and I've

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heard that over and over in my life.

The first time they stop you they

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tried the good cop, bad cop approach

where one of them will try and be

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the more friendly version saying,

OK, we're going to be going to do

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this, this kind of crime is

happening in the area and you start

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questioning yourself. What was I

doing, where am I going? Why do I

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need to tell you what I'm doing?

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need to tell you what I'm doing?

I

am 25 and I've been stopped and

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searched so many times I can't

remember how many. The first time I

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was around 11, 12 years old. A lot

of The Times, when I was stopped and

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searched as a child, the police

would say it's because there's been

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robberies in the area but they

wouldn't tell us a description that

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we fitted, except for probably being

black and wearing urban clothes.

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There's times when they would just

harass us. Strip search in the back

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of the van, touching certain places

that they're not really meant to,

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legally, I understand, they aren't

legally allowed to do. They used to

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really take advantage of our lack of

knowledge of the law and a lot of us

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thought that because their police,

they can do anything they want.

My

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name is Lamar Jennings McKenzie,

I've been stopped and searched once,

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when I was 13. Me and my friend was

walking down the street. An

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undercover officer, who wasn't

wearing any clothing that showed he

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was an officer, grabbed me. At the

time I thought it was kidnappers so

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I was really scared for my friend. I

now know that... You're meant to

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show your permit, to let us know you

or the police and you are going to

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do a stop and search.

My name is

Junior, I am 24 and I've been

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stopped and searched over 400 times,

even today they still use the same

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language, robberies, you match the

description, that's their reason,

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basically. When they target you from

young and you done so much when you

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were young, they don't want to let

it go. They always try and see your

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movements can see where you -- watch

you. You're more likely to be

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stopped and searched if you were a

tracksuit because they think

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everybody wearing one is a drug

dealer. So they target that, that's

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my opinion.

Generally the young

people I work with, identify and

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they don't trust the police. Even

when it's mostly the males who are

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getting stopped and searched, the

girls will tell me about how they

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see their boyfriends or brothers

etc, siblings being stopped.

Do I

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have faith in the police? Now I'm

going to say yeah, I do have faith

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in the police because not all police

are... Insert aggressive word here,

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but they are actually doing their

jobs and they are cool ones and

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know-how to deal with it but a lot

of officers are trained on dealing

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with human beings. You have to

respect that they are doing their

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job but there's a way you do your

job and most of them that are put

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out to do the stop and searches, are

doing their jobs correctly. You have

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two come correct.

Personally I don't

like the police but there's good

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police out there, good ones, bad

ones, corrupted ones. A lot of them

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are corrupted, which is why they

have a bad name because they do a

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lot of things behind closed doors

that is not in the media. I've been

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a victim of police brutality, they

put me in a van and punched me up.

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The police are high up and being on

the streets, making that accusation,

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you are no one. You tell me how it's

meant to change.

I don't know where

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they get it from but in their mind,

as soon as they see a black man or

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black boy they think he's a

criminal, he's going to hurt me, but

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somebody, so they start defending

themselves against something they

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don't need to defend themselves

from. We aren't going to hurt you,

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we're just trying to get on with our

lives, trying to get home the same

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way you are.

Every time I see the

police I get an uncomfortable

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feeling. Never comfortable with the

uniform, the car, just not

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comfortable. I just know that they

aren't here to protect and me, they

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aren't here to work for me, they

have no interest in me. If the

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police officers are wearing body

cameras and they are active, then

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they can't turn them on or off, then

I'd feel a bit safer because right

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now the police can control their own

cameras though if they really want

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to do something then it doesn't have

to be filmed. I'm just hoping my

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phone has got a battery and

something that can maybe protect me.

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I can go live and they may not be

able to do as much. Just me on the

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roads, if they brutalise me and I'm

saying this officer done this, in

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the court of law, without camera

evidence, his Word is going to be

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taken over mine. It can sometimes

turn out to be horrific, the

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outcomes. There was a little boy

called Tyrrell Hatton his picture

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went viral on the Internet -- called

Thai rail -- called Terrell. He may

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be on medication for the rest of his

life.

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What there needs to be, there needs

to be more projects to give the

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people, youth, ambition. If you're

not going to play sport or music

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then is looking less hopeful you --

hope for you. But there is so much

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more than that.

Investing in their

youth, that is the key, rather than

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just random stop and search. Stop

and search itself doesn't deal with

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the issue of knife crime because

knife crime is a mentality issue.

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Nothing is going to work to be

honest.

There must be something?

No,

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I'm trying to think. I don't think.

I'm done, I'm done.

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The film was made by

Sarah O'Connell for us.

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So let's hear from the other side.

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Sophie Lindon is London's Deputy

Mayor for Policing and Crime.

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Good evening, what's your reaction

to listening to those voices? Do you

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hear them?

I've heard them many

times in the time I've worked on the

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police and crime and when I hear

young men talking about stop and

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search and the lack of trust in the

police it is concerning because the

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police are there for them, to keep

them safe. As we've seen from the

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statistics you put up today, many

victims of knife crime are young

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black men and their families and

communities.

What was striking is

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that they had quite nuanced views of

the police, it wasn't simple or all

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hostility, they understand there is

good and bad everywhere but low

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levels of general trust. Do you

think they are actually wrong not to

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trust the police more or are they

right to take the view that they do?

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I can understand and I have heard

many times as we did on your film

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White sunk young men don't -- why

some young men don't trust the

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police but the job of the

Metropolitan Police is to get into

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the community so that the young

people who find it difficult to

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trust them know that the police out

there on their side.

There are two

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reasons you might not trust the

police, it maybe understandable but

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they are good, but on the other

side, you don't trust the police and

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you shouldn't trust the police, I'm

wondering if you are right that they

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shouldn't or you sympathise with

them?

I think they should trust the

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police because they are there to

protect them, to get knives off the

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streets, to ensure they can protect

them. The reason I talk about

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understanding their concerns is that

I've spoken to many young people

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like those in the film who talk

about the times they've been stopped

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and searched, the way it was done

and how it was ineffective and they

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weren't given proper reasons.

You

believe them when they say it is

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like that?

Absolutely, we know in

the past there has been blanket stop

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and search on the streets which has

caused community tension. What we're

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talking about with stop and search

now is expecting an increase where

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it knife crime is increasing.

In

particular areas?

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particular areas?

Yes, particular

areas.

When police say that you

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match the description of a suspect

of a crime in this area, and I think

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we heard it several times, do you

believe that the police say that

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sometimes to justify going after

someone? Or the only way they

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resemble the suspect is the colour

of their skin.

If the police are

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undertaking stop and search and they

don't have a good reason, that is

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wrong. It is important to have the

right intelligence because as you

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seen tonight, not just in London but

across in another Wales, violence

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and knife crime is increasing which

is why we have said to communities,

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work with us and give us

intelligence so we can target those

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young people and adults who are

carrying knives, and for whatever

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reason it is, some of them

perpetrating violence and when

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things get out of hand, people get

seriously injured or murdered.

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So the contention is, and you and

the mayor believe this, stop and

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search does help in the fight

against knife crime?

It is only one

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of the tools involved in tackling

knife crime. One of the enforcement

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powers the police have, and they are

doing lots of other work on the

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street and in communities, but that

is just one part, enforcement, and

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actually towards the end of your

film the young people really did

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start to talk about what needs to be

done to tackle knife crime and that

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is absolutely what we're doing from

the mayor's office, and the

0:15:470:15:52

Metropolitan Police, putting in

place the measures working with

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schools, families and communities,

but the real problem, and you picked

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out one figure, £22 million coming

out of London. That is just one

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figure. We have money coming out of

schools, head of mental health

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services, and only this weekend we

saw other survey where headteachers

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were saying they couldn't get the

mental health support young people

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need. We know if you really want to

tackle knife crime, yes, stop and

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search, effectively and

professionally done, but also you

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need to have investment in services

that are really going to support

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young people, and that needs the

Government to step up and invest.

I

0:16:240:16:28

am interested in one thing, though.

Scotland I think had no knife deaths

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of young people last year. London

was a very different picture. What

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Scotland doing that London isn't

doing, and by? Sorry, Scotland,

0:16:410:16:46

going back some years, but why is it

working in Scotland and why not in

0:16:460:16:52

London?

We are looking at Scotland

and have learned the lessons there,

0:16:520:16:55

many of the things as part of that

strategy in investing in mental

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health services, putting youth

workers into A&E departments, but

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one of the key things they have done

in Scotland is invested in services,

0:17:030:17:07

in services for young people, mental

health services and work in schools,

0:17:070:17:11

and it really is very difficult to

really do that, the wide strategy of

0:17:110:17:18

public health they are doing in

Scotland, if we don't have the

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investment from the Government who

are cutting the crucial services...

0:17:200:17:24

So your point is it is the central

Government cuts, to your budgets,

0:17:240:17:29

that are going to be responsible for

the difference between London and

0:17:290:17:32

Scotland in the performance on this

really significant measure?

So

0:17:320:17:38

central Government cuts to local

authority budgets or the NHS

0:17:380:17:42

budgets, obviously 32 local

authorities in London, they are

0:17:420:17:44

making it very difficult to

effectively tackle knife crime. The

0:17:440:17:46

police can only do so much. As we

all know they are the enforcement

0:17:460:17:51

part. We need and we are investing

the mayor's office, in new services,

0:17:510:17:58

mental health services, but compared

to the money taken out by central

0:17:580:18:01

Government, it just isn't enough.

Sophie Linden, thank you very much

0:18:010:18:06

indeed.

Thank you.

0:18:060:18:07

The Charity Commission has opened

an inquiry into Oxfam this evening

0:18:070:18:10

in the wake of the scandal

of misconduct in Haiti -

0:18:100:18:13

a scandal that is not going away.

0:18:130:18:21

The charity's chief executive,

Mark Goldring, went to meet

0:18:230:18:25

the International Development

Secretary Penny Mordaunt today.

0:18:250:18:26

There was an apology to her,

and there was also a resignation.

0:18:260:18:29

Not Mr Goldring himself -

he only started at Oxfam in 2013,

0:18:290:18:32

sometime after the misconduct

was inadequately dealt with.

0:18:320:18:34

But his deputy resigned today.

0:18:340:18:39

Penny Lawrence was international

programmes director at the time

0:18:390:18:42

and said she was ashamed

of what had been exposed.

0:18:420:18:44

What about Oxfam's

foot soldiers, though?

0:18:440:18:45

And its customers?

0:18:450:18:47

Here are some voices from Reading.

0:18:470:18:48

It sounds like bad behaviour

of a few people, but charities

0:18:480:18:51

generally do a lot of good work,

I think.

0:18:510:18:53

Yeah, it wouldn't put me off.

0:18:530:18:59

I'm long-term unemployed due

to ill-health, and I'm grateful

0:18:590:19:01

for being able to volunteer

for charities as well.

0:19:010:19:03

I mean, I like the idea that I'm

contributing towards something

0:19:030:19:06

which hopefully does a lot of good.

0:19:060:19:09

Do know what I mean,

they're making out they're whiter

0:19:090:19:12

than white, doing nice jobs,

getting a nice wage packet,

0:19:120:19:14

and they're just taking the Mickey

out of everyone that puts

0:19:140:19:17

all the money in the

bucket, aren't they?

0:19:170:19:19

So really they should go

to court, shouldn't they?

0:19:190:19:21

Using the Oxfam shop,

or donating, as I've just done,

0:19:210:19:23

it wouldn't make me feel any

different to do that,

0:19:230:19:26

but if I was going to give

substantial amounts of money

0:19:260:19:28

I would probably think more

carefully about what I'm

0:19:280:19:31

putting my money into,

and asking a few more questions

0:19:310:19:33

about what it is they're doing

and where that money

0:19:330:19:35

is being invested.

0:19:350:19:37

If people are going there

they should be doing what they're

0:19:370:19:39

meant to, not just...

0:19:390:19:41

They're not on holiday, are they?

0:19:410:19:42

Somebody in a position of,

you know, responsibility,

0:19:420:19:44

and a position of power,

who is actually going out

0:19:440:19:47

there to help, you know,

deal with a crisis, shouldn't be

0:19:470:19:49

using and taking advantage

of those who are obviously

0:19:490:19:52

being made homeless,

being made vulnerable, have

0:19:520:19:53

potentially lost family members.

0:19:530:19:54

You know, it's just

taking advantage.

0:19:540:19:56

It's not very nice at all.

0:19:560:20:04

Some voices from Reading there.

0:20:120:20:13

In fairness to Oxfam, it is not

alone in having failed to deal

0:20:130:20:16

with sexual misconduct properly.

0:20:160:20:18

In fact, it's not easy to think

of an organisation that has dealt

0:20:180:20:21

with a scandal of that

kind very well.

0:20:210:20:29

Something seems to get in the way

of full openness and transparency.

0:20:320:20:35

Penny Lawrence, the Oxfam deputy

director who resigned today,

0:20:350:20:37

says in her biography

on the charity's website,

0:20:370:20:39

"I am a passionate advocate

of women's rights."

0:20:390:20:41

There is no reason

to disbelieve that,

0:20:410:20:42

but clearly something

inhibited her publicly calling out

0:20:420:20:44

bad behaviour towards women

in her own organisation.

0:20:440:20:46

So let's think about transparency -

why it is so hard to be open,

0:20:460:20:50

and how far it should be expected?

0:20:500:20:51

I'm joined by crisis

management consultant

0:20:510:20:53

Robin Swinbank, and founder

of the Charities Advisory

0:20:530:20:56

Trust, Dame Hilary Blume.

0:20:560:20:59

A very good evening to you both.

Hilary Blume, why do you think

0:20:590:21:03

people find it so hard to be

transparent? They haven't done

0:21:030:21:07

anything wrong, the people in

headquarters. Why don't they just

0:21:070:21:10

want to quieten -- why do they want

to quieten it all down and not

0:21:100:21:16

exposed to people like the regulator

what has been going on?

Are not as

0:21:160:21:20

complacent as you about it. I think

they should be ashamed of themselves

0:21:200:21:24

-- I am not as complacent. The

problem we are talking about,

0:21:240:21:28

transparency, it is not what the

problem is. The problem really is

0:21:280:21:32

what was Oxfam doing sending people

from Western Europe into a situation

0:21:320:21:37

where the didn't have... Nobody had

any control over them, they were

0:21:370:21:41

answerable to nobody, and they were

having an appalling time in the

0:21:410:21:47

sense that they weren't helping the

people, and they brought the whole

0:21:470:21:52

upper and into disrepute. Now, if

you see your charity as an operation

0:21:520:21:56

to raise money, and you think that

what you are doing is about money,

0:21:560:22:01

then you would want to keep very

quiet about it. What we should be

0:22:010:22:05

talking about is why they were

sending people from outside with no

0:22:050:22:11

democratic control over them, why

were they doing that in the first

0:22:110:22:14

place?

You really raising a very big

point going much wider than sexual

0:22:140:22:19

misconduct at Oxfam, which is the

whole model of aid often as you send

0:22:190:22:24

foreigners in to try and help the

locals, that is what aid mostly is,

0:22:240:22:27

isn't it? You like that is how it

was in 1950. I don't think we should

0:22:270:22:33

proceed on the same basis --

yes,

that is how it was in 1950. When

0:22:330:22:39

Ghana became independent there were

not that many graduates in the

0:22:390:22:42

country but now we are watching

their doctors and nurses, so there

0:22:420:22:45

are people there who are qualified

and the real problem is there is

0:22:450:22:49

nobody controlling these outside

organisations.

We go in not really

0:22:490:22:53

accountable to government...

Yes,

who are they accountable to?

Robin

0:22:530:22:58

Swinbank, I am interested in this

issue of transparency, to get back

0:22:580:23:01

to that. What do you think the

obstacle is? So often, you think,

0:23:010:23:05

why did you do that? It was

obviously going to come out at some

0:23:050:23:09

point.

I think is the time pressure

involved and being able to

0:23:090:23:13

articulate your story from your

prospective in a very brief and

0:23:130:23:16

clear way. You are under immense

under immense pressure, immense

0:23:160:23:20

scrutiny, and you are likely to get

a kicking from your key

0:23:200:23:24

stakeholders, the media, the public,

the politicians.

0:23:240:23:31

But is it not possible to look good?

You have to sanction this conduct

0:23:310:23:37

scandal and one of your projects...

You see, we have on this, uncovered

0:23:370:23:41

it and we have dealt with it. Does

that leave everybody feeling very

0:23:410:23:45

queasy or do they think, it is an

efficient organisation? We know that

0:23:450:23:48

things go wrong in organisations all

the time. We are not embarrassed to

0:23:480:23:52

say that things have gone wrong.

I

think the general public or of that

0:23:520:23:55

view, that things can be forgiven,

but in the media, with the story

0:23:550:24:00

breaking,

0:24:000:24:05

breaking, something has gone wrong,

and you are going to be judged for

0:24:090:24:11

the thing that has gone wrong. It is

how you move forward from that

0:24:110:24:14

position, how you defend it and how

you articulate it in a way that is

0:24:140:24:17

convincing in a short space of time,

and that is very challenging from a

0:24:170:24:20

management perspective.

Is it the

case that all the other aid

0:24:200:24:22

charities, with models very similar

to Oxfam's, they must be looking

0:24:220:24:24

through their back catalogue and

saying, OMG, what have we got?

I

0:24:240:24:30

don't think they will look through

it.

Whistle-blower might now bring

0:24:300:24:34

it forward and you will look much

better to have exposed it yourself

0:24:340:24:38

than to let someone asked...

I just

think you will look terrible doing

0:24:380:24:41

it, and I think it is intrinsic,

particularly in disaster situations,

0:24:410:24:46

that you will get these abuses,

because think about it. People have

0:24:460:24:52

nothing. Somebody comes in, and

they've got food and they've got

0:24:520:24:56

supplies, and they've got

possibilities for you. And you have

0:24:560:25:00

three hungry children at home, and

you're still quite pretty. Won't you

0:25:000:25:05

therefore expose yourself and try to

get the best for your children? It

0:25:050:25:08

puts you in a terrible position, and

the real problem is that so much of

0:25:080:25:14

this parachuting people into the

situations makes it difficult. If

0:25:140:25:19

you gave it to the local corrupt

organisations, at least the public

0:25:190:25:25

there would know that they were

there...

It is a fascinating

0:25:250:25:29

argument.

They would have to have,

they would have some control over

0:25:290:25:34

them. One of the most interesting

examples of aid is that in an

0:25:340:25:40

African country, and I wish I could

remember which one, they put up

0:25:400:25:43

signs on the schools saying this

school gets this amount of money

0:25:430:25:45

from the government, and it was a

real revelation to the people, and

0:25:450:25:49

they said, OK, that is enough for

more teachers and why haven't we got

0:25:490:25:53

the textbooks? If you give people

information they have some power.

0:25:530:25:58

Well, transparency was our original

topic and you are making the point

0:25:580:26:02

more general than that. Robin

Swinbank, what is your advice to all

0:26:020:26:05

the other charities now?

Well, I think it is a collective

0:26:050:26:10

problem, because it will damage the

voluntary sector, undoubtedly.

0:26:100:26:14

Confidence will be damaged in the

giving aspect of that. People will

0:26:140:26:19

be wary of it.

You have given advice

on crisis management, with handling

0:26:190:26:24

these things. What is the sort of

goal to advise at this point?

It is

0:26:240:26:31

absolutely to have the position that

the crisis is both a threat and an

0:26:310:26:34

opportunity and the vision must be

to be in a better place at the end

0:26:340:26:38

of it than you were before the

crisis unfolded.

I don't see the

0:26:380:26:42

opportunity. Do you mean to sort out

your safeguarding?

Absolutely, to

0:26:420:26:47

sort out how you are structured,

what your policies and procedures

0:26:470:26:51

are, how robust the art, and how

will you communicate your beliefs

0:26:510:26:54

and your values to all you stay

called as -- how robust they are.

0:26:540:27:02

Very briefly.

There has been a

further development in that Helen

0:27:020:27:07

Evans, who was actually in charge of

monitoring these events, has just

0:27:070:27:10

spoken out and said, all her

approaches were ignored by Oxfam. I

0:27:100:27:16

think that one is a hard one to

overcome.

This is obviously going to

0:27:160:27:20

run on for days. Thank you both very

much.

Thank you.

Now, we will take a

0:27:200:27:25

pause.

0:27:250:27:31

pause. For Viewsnight. Polly has her

say about workers' writes in the

0:27:320:27:36

so-called gig economy.

0:27:360:27:43

That was poorly's Viewsnight there.

0:29:220:29:29

That was Polly's Viewsnight there.

0:29:290:29:30

South Africa really

is on the cusp of regime change

0:29:300:29:33

of a significant kind.

0:29:330:29:34

Jacob Zuma is on the way out.

0:29:340:29:35

According to the broadscaster

SABC, he has been given

0:29:350:29:38

48 hours to resign.

0:29:380:29:39

For the best part of a week now,

he's been clinging on.

0:29:390:29:42

His heir apparent, Cyril Ramaphosa,

has spent days trying

0:29:420:29:44

to persuade him to stand aside.

0:29:440:29:45

That didn't seem to work, so today,

it was the ANC's National Executive

0:29:450:29:53

Committee's turn -

that met for six hours,

0:29:530:29:55

but it didn't quite

agree to dislodge him.

0:29:550:29:57

But everyone now assumes he will be

deposed, and South Africa will get

0:29:570:30:00

a second chance to launch itself

as a well-run African country.

0:30:000:30:06

For quite a few years now

there has been popular

0:30:060:30:08

discontent at President Zuma.

0:30:080:30:13

Here, as long as go as 2013,

he was being booed at

0:30:130:30:15

Nelson Mandela's memorial service.

0:30:150:30:16

A sense that the man

was better at looking

0:30:160:30:21

after himself than his country.

0:30:210:30:23

He became president in 2009

after rising to the top

0:30:230:30:25

of the ANC two years before.

0:30:250:30:29

You could just dismiss him as a bad

president - that can

0:30:290:30:31

happen in any country.

0:30:310:30:32

I, Jacob...

0:30:320:30:38

But there have to be big

questions for the ANC,

0:30:380:30:41

which selected Zuma,

despite some massive questions

0:30:410:30:44

that predated his rise

to president of the party.

0:30:440:30:46

He was charged with

raping an HIV-positive

0:30:460:30:47

family friend in 2005.

0:30:470:30:51

Although he was acquitted,

he told the court that in order

0:30:510:30:54

to avoid catching HIV he had

showered, a claim

0:30:540:30:56

that was much derided.

0:30:560:30:59

But more significantly,

Mr Zuma had been deputy president

0:30:590:31:02

under President Thabo Mbeki

but was sacked on allegations

0:31:020:31:04

of money-laundering and racketeer.

0:31:040:31:08

It would be best to release

honourable Jacob Zuma

0:31:080:31:11

from his responsibilities as deputy

president of the republic

0:31:110:31:13

and member of the Cabinet.

0:31:130:31:14

Charges that have

refused to go away.

0:31:140:31:22

Was there any due diligence

by the ANC at the time?

0:31:220:31:25

Did anyone care?

0:31:250:31:26

Well, there's no doubt Mr Zuma has

enjoyed strong support among some

0:31:260:31:29

members of the public,

particularly in his home

0:31:290:31:31

province of KwaZulu-Natal.

0:31:310:31:33

He has a populist appeal.

0:31:330:31:35

From a poor start, he portrays

himself as a man of the people.

0:31:350:31:41

When the going was getting tough

last year he made a populist gesture

0:31:410:31:45

of suggesting white land might be

expropriated without compensation.

0:31:450:31:49

For him, the future may involve

some legal problems.

0:31:490:31:54

For South Africa, the question

is whether the ANC has

0:31:540:31:57

learned its lesson and will pick

more carefully in future.

0:31:570:32:00

For now, everyone thinks Zuma's

replacement, Cyril Ramaphosa,

0:32:000:32:03

is a big improvement,

but can he really turn

0:32:030:32:05

the country round?

0:32:050:32:11

Verashni Pillay is head

of digital at the Johannesburg

0:32:110:32:17

radio station Power FM,

she's the former Editor-in-Chief

0:32:170:32:19

of HuffPost South Africa

and the Mail & Guardian.

0:32:190:32:21

I asked her whether President Jacob

Zuma could expect a soft deal

0:32:210:32:29

similar to the one Robert Mugabe got

in order to get him out of office?

0:32:300:32:33

This is the raging debate happening

right now in South Africa,

0:32:330:32:36

and I have to say that

South Africans are a lot less

0:32:360:32:39

forgiving than Zimbabweans appear

to be around their president leaving

0:32:390:32:41

office.

0:32:410:32:43

So right now there's all sorts

of speculation in the media around

0:32:430:32:50

the kind of deal that is being cut

within the ruling party to get

0:32:500:32:54

the president to leave.

0:32:540:32:55

From what the reports are saying

and the sources that

0:32:550:32:57

are sort of leaking,

it seems he is very reluctant to go

0:32:570:33:00

and wants some sort of protection.

0:33:000:33:01

However, it would make

the new president very unpopular

0:33:010:33:04

to give him any kind of blanket

amnesty, so while there have been

0:33:040:33:07

reports of various deals

nothing has been confirmed.

0:33:070:33:09

However, if the opposition party

takes it into their own hands to do

0:33:090:33:12

some sort of vote of no-confidence

in the president, and are finally

0:33:120:33:15

successful with that, you know,

he has no bargaining power,

0:33:150:33:18

and will leave with no benefits

for the rest of his life.

0:33:180:33:22

He has a terrible press

here and he has a pretty bad

0:33:220:33:24

press in South Africa.

0:33:240:33:28

I just wonder if you could

explain his popular appeal

0:33:280:33:32

because there are plenty of people

who rather love Jacob Zuma, right?

0:33:320:33:35

I think especially at

the beginning of his presidency

0:33:350:33:37

he was very well loved.

0:33:370:33:39

I mean, he managed to do

the unthinkable and get

0:33:390:33:42

a sitting president recalled.

0:33:420:33:44

So he was very popular

in the beginning.

0:33:440:33:46

And he particularly had

a very grass-roots appeal,

0:33:460:33:48

particularly in his native province,

KwaZulu-Natal, and it's said that

0:33:480:33:53

within the rural areas

he was considered very popular too,

0:33:530:33:56

because the previous president,

Thabo Mbeki, was seen as very

0:33:560:34:00

detached and very sort

of intellectual and cold,

0:34:000:34:04

and Zuma was seen as

a friendly, charming person.

0:34:040:34:07

He is said to be very

charming in person.

0:34:070:34:09

But he has frittered away that

goodwill and it's very hard to find

0:34:090:34:12

real supporters of Zuma,

even in his former strongholds

0:34:120:34:16

it's very difficult

to find supporters now.

0:34:160:34:17

There were a lot of signs

of the things that have turned out

0:34:170:34:21

to be problematic about Zuma.

0:34:210:34:22

Some of those signs were there

before the man took office

0:34:220:34:27

and I just wonder whether,

you know, everyone loves

0:34:270:34:30

Cyril Ramaphosa, but do you think,

looking ahead, that the ANC

0:34:300:34:33

will pick candidates responsibly?

0:34:330:34:36

If they get a second chance.

0:34:360:34:40

I mean, let's be honest,

the ANC's fate at the polls is dire.

0:34:400:34:47

Their share of the vote has

been rapidly declining

0:34:470:34:49

over every election.

0:34:490:34:51

We have very trustworthy elections.

0:34:510:34:54

Hopefully they will take this

as a lesson and clean-up their house

0:34:540:34:57

in the party so people will give

them the chance when it

0:34:570:35:00

comes around again.

0:35:000:35:02

How excited are you by

a change in administration?

0:35:020:35:05

It seems like quite a significant

change of direction.

0:35:050:35:11

For me, purely from a political

point of view, what is happening

0:35:110:35:14

right now is a spring.

0:35:140:35:15

There is no other way to put it,

everyone is calling it an absolute

0:35:150:35:19

spring that's happening in South

Africa.

0:35:190:35:20

Not only do we have new leadership

but we have strong words and action

0:35:200:35:23

being taken around accountability.

0:35:230:35:24

Not all just emanating

from Ramaphosa.

0:35:240:35:26

Coming from our parliament,

our civil society, everyone has

0:35:260:35:30

really pulled together to say,

you know what, we aren't

0:35:300:35:32

going to let it slide,

we're demanding accountability.

0:35:320:35:35

All the corrupt deals we've been

reading about for years,

0:35:350:35:38

and it's showing we're

making a U-turn.

0:35:380:35:40

We were very close to going off

the precipice where corruption

0:35:400:35:43

would have become entrenched

and I feel like we're coming

0:35:430:35:45

back from that cliff.

0:35:450:35:47

Exciting times, thank you so much,

thanks for talking to us.

0:35:470:35:54

We hoped to speak to Peter Hain who

is in South Africa at the moment but

0:35:550:35:58

I don't think we can so we may have

some time to look at the papers.

0:35:580:36:04

Fascinating how something like the

Oxfam crisis escalates, starting on

0:36:040:36:08

Friday in the Times. The Guardian

leading on that, Oxfam deputy leader

0:36:080:36:14

quitting. Catching up on today's

news. The Guardian saying Oxfam

0:36:140:36:21

could lose 29 million in European

funding because of the handling of

0:36:210:36:24

the misconduct scandal. In a column,

the Oxfam sex story is effect and so

0:36:240:36:31

is the war on foreign aid. The Daily

Telegraph also leading on the

0:36:310:36:37

subject, Oxfam workers offered aid

for sex. Whistle-blower claims rape

0:36:370:36:41

overseas and abuse in charity shops

were ignored, that was Helen Evans,

0:36:410:36:48

who we heard about, she's a spoken

on Channel 4. A full-blown crisis

0:36:480:36:52

for Oxfam. That's it from us. We're

going to leave you with the voice of

0:36:520:36:59

Katie Couric on NBC. We all

occasionally say stupid things but

0:36:590:37:05

her observations about the

Netherlands speed skating team, they

0:37:050:37:10

appear not to be based entirely on

fact, much to the amusement of the

0:37:100:37:14

Dutch.

0:37:140:37:24

Next is the Netherlands.

0:37:240:37:25

It's probably not a newsflash

to tell you the Dutch are really,

0:37:250:37:28

really good at speed skating.

0:37:280:37:29

All but five of the 110 medals

they've won have been

0:37:290:37:32

on the speed skating oval.

0:37:320:37:33

Now, why are they so good,

you may be asking yourselves?

0:37:330:37:36

Because skating is an important mode

of transportation in a city

0:37:360:37:38

like Amsterdam which sits

at sea level.

0:37:380:37:40

As you all know, it has

lots of canals which can

0:37:400:37:43

freeze in the winter.

0:37:430:37:44

For as long as those

canals have existed,

0:37:440:37:49

With Evan Davis.

Young black men talk about stop and search, the Charity Commission launches an inquiry into Oxfam in Haiti, and South Africa prepares for a new president.