13/02/2018 Newsnight


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13/02/2018

With Evan Davis. Boris Johnson says Brexit is a liberal project, the Oxfam scandal, ambition and state schools, plus what makes a political painting?


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He's been the remainers' public

enemy number one ever

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since he led the out campaign,

but now he comes in peace.

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Tomorrow he makes a speech saying

let's all be friends again.

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We'll look ahead to that speech,

in which the Foreign Secretary's

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main message is that Brexit

is a liberal project,

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not a nationalist one.

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It may not entirely convince

all his opponents.

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I think we've had

enough of sound bites.

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Liberal, outward-looking, global,

buccaneering, Brexit means

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Brexit, deep and special

partnership, no deal better than a

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bad deal.

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All those are slogans.

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We'll ask the liberal

in chief how he feels

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about Boris's tanks on his lawn.

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The Oxfam crisis.

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Is this only about one agency?

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Or does the whole sector have

questions to answer?

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This boy is an outstanding science

student at the state school in the

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North of England. What's his

ambition?

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Do you see science in your future?

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Yeah, like, I want to become a chef

and apply science to cooking.

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Young, gifted and Paul, what should

we do to help realise their

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potential? --

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potential? -- and poor.

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And you probably saw

the Obama painting.

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It's gone down rather well,

so we'll be asking someone who has

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painted the former president

what makes a great portrait.

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Hello.

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Boris Johnson has become something

of a hate figure to a chunk

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of liberal Britain who blame him

for what they see as

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the Brexit catastrophe.

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They think he lied in the referendum

campaign, and persuaded

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Britain to self-harm,

all to serve his own

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political career.

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So, Mr Johnson is bravely trying

to appeal to those core

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Remainers tomorrow -

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his is the first in a series

of speeches on Brexit by cabinet

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ministers over the next few days.

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He will argue Brexit is

basically a liberal project.

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It is about pulling down barriers,

not erecting them -

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so he means it's liberal

in the sense of free trade.

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Apart from trying to

heal Brexit division -

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good luck with that -

it's an attempt to reclaim Brexit

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from any suggestion it's

all about Nigel Farage.

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So, does Johnson's argument fly?

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Certainly, there is a lot

of illiberalism on the continent -

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but Mr Johnson's problem is that

it's that there's a lot

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of illiberalism here too, much of it

on his Brexit-supporting side.

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So what's the Foreign

Secretary trying to do?

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Our political editor

Nick Watt reports.

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We are, it would seem,

a divided country.

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In the 20 months since the Brexit

referendum, the two sides seem

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as divided as ever but have no

fear, help is at hand.

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The man who transformed

the Leave cause is

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reaching out across the divide.

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Boris Johnson will criticise some

ardent pro-Europeans who he will

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accuse of trying to reverse Brexit

but I'm told he's also expected to

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put balm on the wounds caused

by the bitter referendum campaign.

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This may all seem a far

cry from his joshing

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of the Remain camp

just a few months ago.

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Every day a distinguished pink

newspaper manages to make

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Eeyore look positively exuberant.

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Just under a year ago,

you wouldn't have known

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there was a divide that needed

to be healed.

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This year, after a period of intense

debate over the right

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future for our country,

there is a sense that people

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are coming together and uniting

behind the opportunities

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that lie ahead.

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Boris Johnson now feels it's time

for something of a reset

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of the optics around Brexit.

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I understand he has told his inner

circle that he wants to rescue

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Brexit from what he privately calls

a Faragist worldview.

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Inward and backward looking.

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As passionate as ever

about the opportunities that

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will be provided by leaving

the European Union, he believes

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you can support Brexit whilst

being an internationalist,

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a globalist, and a liberal.

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The values he says he shares

with many Remain supporters.

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Well, I'm all in favour

of reaching out.

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I think people voted Remain out

of fear for the short-term

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economic consequences.

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And it is great news that those

forecasts were wrong and the economy

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has continued to grow and we've got

more jobs and house prices

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did not tank and so forth.

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So there will be some of those

who say maybe it was not

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quite as bad as thought.

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And we want this to

work for everybody.

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Those of us who believe in it

believe that Britain will be more

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prosperous and more free

when it is a self-governing

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country again.

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A leading pro-European Tory

is not changing her view

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of the Brexit is a sceptical

that the Foreign Secretary's claim

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that it is a liberal cause.

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Liberal doesn't mean anything.

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If it means free trade,

we've got free trade.

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We are about to throw away

umpteen free trade deals.

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We've got frictionless trade.

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But if liberal means doing exactly

what we want and hoping

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everyone else will let us,

then I don't think

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that world exists.

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Is hiding all the vital

information we need to know

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about what the impact of what we're

doing might be liberal?

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I don't think so.

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Is putting up new trade barriers

where currently none exist liberal?

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I don't think so.

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What does this mean?

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If we are trying to make our own

rules, make our own laws,

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and expect that everyone else

will respect our laws but we don't

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really have to comply with theirs,

then that is not how

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the world works.

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CHEERING.

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A pollster wonders whether Boris

Johnson is the right messenger.

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After being very much

the Heineken Mayor of London,

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reaching the parts that other

politicians cannot reach,

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Boris Johnson may well regard

himself as the best person

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on the Leave side to

appeal to Remainers.

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And indeed if he can't do it

then perhaps nobody can.

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But what he may find is that he

is not Heineken, he is Marmite.

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And for Remainers that means a lot

of people see him simply as a Leaver

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and they don't like it.

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So Boris Johnson will cast himself

as the nation's healer.

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With divisions in his own

family, he knows he faces

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a monumental challenge.

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But in the end he believes

the free spirit unleashed

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by Brexit will prevail.

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We are joined by two men who

consider themselves liberal in their

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own way.

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We are now joined by the leader

of the Liberal Democrats Sir Vince

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Cable and the Conservative MEP Dan

Hannan.

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Good evening to you both. Boris as a

healer, do you feel healed, what do

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you think about his message?

He can

be charming and witty but the

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substance is not helpful. What I

can't understand is the use of the

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word liberal. It is either a

deliberate use of language or to

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cause confusion. The European

project that he once asked to

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disengage from is the Single Market,

which is fundamentally a liberal

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idea, about the free trade in goods

and services and freeing up capital

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movements and Labour -- he wants us

to disengage from. The whole point

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about the government strategy,

particularly the hardliners like

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Boris Johnson, the Chancellor is in

a different position, is about

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getting us out of that liberal

arrangement and creating extra

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barriers to trade as a consequence.

The other red line is about

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withdrawing from the customs union.

Even if you manage to negotiate a

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tariff free agreement you would have

friction at the borders because you

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have to check...

So it is about

creating barriers? That is the

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paradox of what Boris Johnson is

asking, you have the most liberal

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trading deal in the world, the EU,

and then you are leaving it. So deal

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with that paradox, if you would.

Obviously I don't see it that way, I

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see the EU as a top-down project and

there has been a general global

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economic and trade liberalisation

which is a good thing, a great

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vehicle for poverty alleviation but

the European Union hasn't been at

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the forefront of it. Being an

internationalist and Liberal lever

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is about raising our eyes to the

other opportunities. At its exports

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to the US and New Zealand have grown

by 40% each, to China and Japan,

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60%, South Korea, 100%, the EU, 10%.

The idea that I somehow remaining in

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a tariff wall and often

protectionist EU we are necessarily

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advancing the liberal projects, I

don't agree with. There's another

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thing which is important for a

Foreign Secretary to be stressing, a

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lot of overseas observers and media

only see the Farage argument for

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Brexit. They've got this kind of

idea that the only reason to vote

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Leave is bigotry, nostalgia or

disliking immigrants but I think

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it's the duty of the Foreign

Secretary to make the case that we

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are an engaged country involved in

many countries and Europe.

I want to

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go back about trade, it is abstract

about talking about global this and

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liberal that. Can you give me a

concrete way in which we will be

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more liberal as a result of leaving?

I want to know what this means in

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practice, not the abstract. What

does being more liberal mean in

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practice?

Well, the EU applies a lot

of barriers, especially nontariff

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barriers to some of the poorest

countries in the world, especially

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agriculture.

Sorry to interrupt, is

it your contention that we will

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remove those barriers and have more

imports of cheap agricultural

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products from poorer countries?

So

the prices in the UK fall, which

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will benefit all of us, but will

especially benefit the people on the

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lowest incomes who spend a higher

proportion of their weekly budgets

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on Minister cities like food.

You've

given us a good one. -- on

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necessities like. You're not going

to argue about the Single Market but

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do you see that there are things

where you can say it works both

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ways? The Single Market, you call it

liberal, but agriculture could be

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more liberal if we leave?

There are

some barriers to developing

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countries but compared with 20 years

ago the European Union is a much

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more open economy than the United

States, Japan, China and other

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trading... The EU has led the way to

opening up world trade through the

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World Trade Organisation. Of course

barriers remain. What I'm not clear

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about is what the Brexiteers wants

to do about it. One thing you could

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do is save, we are going to have the

open market, get rid of the trade

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barriers and just enjoy that

freedom. That is an economic liberal

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argument but that isn't what Theresa

May is doing, she's charging around

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the world signing, in a rather

pathetic way, trying to get the

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Chinese and Indians to sign

bilateral agreements which fragment

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the trading system even more. That

isn't a liberal way to approach

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trade.

Do you think the British

people who voted for Brexit thought

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they were voting for more cheap

imports from poorer countries, for

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more globalisation, for more free

trade, perhaps for more immigration

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from India and other parts of Asia

and Africa, when they voted for

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Brexit?

17 point formerly people

voted Leave so clearly there was a

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broad range of motives and I can't

tell you what every single one of

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those people said but plainly there

were liberal lever is Mac. Not every

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libertarian is a Leave voter. To get

away from this caricature of Leave

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as being a basically backward

looking project. The day after the

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referendum I came on this programme

and spoke to you and said voting

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Leave doesn't mean there will be

zero immigration, it will be subject

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to democratic control and you did a

Paxman face of incredulity and

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banged the table but I've said the

same thing through the campaign, has

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had Boris.

It is a strange thing

that it is such a liberal project

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that immigration control features

are so heavily as the way to sell it

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to the British people. More

globalisation...

In the main... In

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the main debate, the most watched

debate, the great Wembley debate,

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Boris begun by saying he's not only

liberal on immigration, he's

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favoured giving an amnesty to

migrants. It isn't something he

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tried to slip into the small print.

A slightly grotesque caricature has

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been built up since the vote, not

least in overseas media and I think

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it's quite important that the

British Foreign Secretary should be

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relying friends and allies that we

remain an engaged and trusted global

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partner?

Do you trust that?

Dan

Hannan is Aina minority of the

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leavers on this, the government are

arguing they want to restrict

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immigration. You can make a

theoretical liberal argument to say

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we will have less legislation but

the government are arguing the

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opposite, coming to Parliament

arguing that none of these

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regulations will be removed. -- have

less regulation. There is a

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fundamental dishonesty in the use of

the word liberal.

Thank you for

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joining us.

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It's a sign that Oxfam has not

managed to close down its sexual

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misconduct crisis that we are now

deeply into the phase

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in which incremental news

drips out day after day.

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Tonight, the actor Minnie Driver,

an Oxfam ambassador,

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has quit her role -

saying she was "horrified"

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by the allegations.

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And it was reported today

in the humanitarian

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news website Irin -

that the man in charge

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of the Haitian operation,

who resigned from Oxfam for himself

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using prostitutes, had lost a job

in Liberia some years before

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with a different British aid agency

on similar grounds.

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Roland Van Hauwermeiren

reportedly denied the

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allegations, but did resign.

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What this latest news does, perhaps,

is simply harden the suspicion that

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Oxfam is just the tip of an iceberg

I'm joined now from Boston

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by Diane Mazurana,

from Massachusetts Tufts university.

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She has conducted a major

study of sexual assaults

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in the aid industry.

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And in the studio we

have Bocchit Edmond,

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the Haitian Ambassador to the UK.

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If I can turn to you Diane, there a

difference between sexual assault

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and using prostitutes. But what did

study find?

What we found in the

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study was sexual assault and

harassment of humanitarian aid

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workers was pretty widespread. The

most reliable numbers we have is

0:15:590:16:04

about 24% of aid workers, women aid

workers, reported being sexually

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assaulted while on a mission. And we

found that the primary perpetrators

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are other men who are humanitarian

aid workers who are their colleagues

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and usually people in a position of

power, more higher ranking than

0:16:210:16:26

them. But also mail Security

officers hired by the agencies to

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provide security.

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provide security. We looked at

Oxfam, actually.

Go ahead.

We did

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look at Oxfam and I think it is

important to note that Oxfam

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actually was best practice and I

still stand by that with all the

0:16:480:16:51

accusations and revelations coming

out. Oxfam was widely viewed by the

0:16:510:16:56

other agencies we talked to, UN

agencies and international NGOs as

0:16:560:17:04

having the best safeguarding unit

and policy and practice in place.

0:17:040:17:08

Other agencies do not even have

safeguarding, or proper mechanisms.

0:17:080:17:14

People do not even know how to

report if something happens.

Sorry

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to the interrupting but that is a

very interesting finding. Given the

0:17:210:17:26

heat that Oxfam is under. Because

you're saying that perhaps worse is

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going on elsewhere but unreported.

Absolutely. And I think one thing we

0:17:320:17:38

must understand is once you get

better reporting and investigating

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mechanisms in place and people have

confidence to use those mechanisms,

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reports are going to go up. So Oxfam

is taking the heat right now but I

0:17:470:17:52

can tell you that this is widespread

throughout the sector and other

0:17:520:17:56

agencies have not stepped up to the

level that Oxfam has. You have seen

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from reports coming out...

I'm so

sorry, I keep interrupting. What

0:18:010:18:07

amazes me is that we have not heard

about this study. You have

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interviewed a lot of people and

until it was reported on Oxfam last

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week, no one had spotted your report

and said, this is interesting.

Yes

0:18:170:18:24

in fact the inter-agency standing

committee reported on that, a number

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of other media outlets as well. But

it was used in part to help point

0:18:290:18:33

champions to the inner agency

standing committee to iron out tasks

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with leading a task force, the

deputy High Commissioner for human

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rights and president of interaction

and they are in charge of leading a

0:18:450:18:49

task force looking at how to really

address and take on sexual assault

0:18:490:18:53

and harassment of aid workers

throughout the industry. So it has

0:18:530:18:58

been maybe not in popular media

picked up but we definitely have

0:18:580:19:04

seen some action. Now what we need

to see is more action. And I'm a bit

0:19:040:19:10

concerned at the kind of heat that

Oxfam is taking right now, it makes

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it look as if this is an Oxfam

problem but it is industrywide.

0:19:140:19:20

We've seen reports on this. Well I

want to stop you there and go to the

0:19:200:19:27

ambassador for Haiti. Good evening

to you. What do you make of that,

0:19:270:19:35

you have been putting Oxfam under

some heat?

Well my government is not

0:19:350:19:40

in the business of throwing Oxfam

under a bus. We

0:19:400:19:51

under a bus. We only saw the results

of the investigation and the

0:19:510:19:57

conclusion was that some car crimes

had been committed. And we

0:19:570:20:00

understand they were not reported.

-- some crimes. The British

0:20:000:20:06

Government has now asked Oxfam to

step up to the plate and take

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measures.

But maybe you should be

focusing on all the others as well.

0:20:110:20:16

Of course. Right now we're talking

about Oxfam because there was an

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investigation that came to a

conclusion about Oxfam. It does not

0:20:210:20:24

mean Oxfam is the only NGO facing

those kind of issues.

0:20:240:20:33

those kind of issues.

Just to put

the Oxfam defence to you which is

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that at the time they said reporting

this to the government when law and

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order was preoccupied, disaster

struck, it would have been

0:20:460:20:48

unlikely...

I heard about that.

Unfortunately we disagree with that

0:20:480:20:54

because even in a war zone it does

not happen. After the earthquake the

0:20:540:21:00

state of Haiti did not cease to

exist, there was law enforcement,

0:21:000:21:06

the police authorities were there.

But even at the best of times some

0:21:060:21:11

of these laws are not enforced.

I

will make the concession that there

0:21:110:21:18

are different considerations. But

why not reported to the British

0:21:180:21:23

authorities. And even though they

were aware that this guy had

0:21:230:21:31

committed crimes, I believe they

made a mistake by letting him go.

0:21:310:21:40

But we are here to request Oxfam to

share the facts.

I wonder how

0:21:400:21:49

worried you are that what is

happening now is being used by some

0:21:490:21:53

people as an argument that we do not

give money to aid programmes. But

0:21:530:22:03

these do-gooders are just there for

their own satisfaction. This could

0:22:030:22:06

lead to quite a backlash.

I

understand that and I am concerned

0:22:060:22:10

about that as well. As much as aid

is important, you cannot replace

0:22:100:22:22

protection. Even though you're

coming to bring aid and give

0:22:220:22:26

assistance, you always have to keep

in mind that those people you're

0:22:260:22:32

coming to help also have rights and

dignity. Therefore it is up to those

0:22:320:22:37

NGOs to step up to the plate and

bring in some changes.

0:22:370:22:46

bring in some changes. Have tougher

background checks for recruitment.

0:22:460:22:48

Because if you look at the

seriousness of this guy, Roland van

0:22:480:22:53

Hauwermeiren, he has been in many

organisations and been thrown out

0:22:530:22:57

and wide between themselves they

could not say that. This is

0:22:570:23:02

important to have background checks.

If you want to work for this

0:23:020:23:06

organisation at least then we are

protected. At least minimise it if

0:23:060:23:15

not solve the situation.

Thank you

very much.

0:23:150:23:20

It has become common to argue that

a lack of social mobility in this

0:23:200:23:23

country has dried up.

0:23:230:23:24

Born poor, you stay poor.

0:23:240:23:25

The data points to a more nuanced

reading - there are huge social

0:23:250:23:28

mobility disparities

between different parts

0:23:280:23:29

of the country, and there is a big

rise in the numbers of young people

0:23:290:23:33

going to university,

including from poorer backgrounds.

0:23:330:23:35

So things are not standing still.

0:23:350:23:36

But a new way of understanding

the issue is to watch

0:23:360:23:39

BBC2 at 9 pm tomorrow,

for the first of two one hour

0:23:390:23:42

documentary programmes

called Generation Gifted.

0:23:420:23:44

It looks at the experiences

of six bright teenagers

0:23:440:23:46

from deprived backgrounds.

0:23:460:23:51

The programme will actually follow

the six over three years,

0:23:510:23:54

but obviously you'll have to wait

for the later years.

0:23:540:23:58

But how do these talented teenagers

fare at the start of the series?

0:23:580:24:01

Before we discuss social

mobility more generally,

0:24:010:24:04

here's a few minutes extracted

from the Generation

0:24:040:24:06

Gifted programmes.

0:24:060:24:14

In your bedroom, is there

anything that defines

0:24:200:24:21

you more than anything else?

0:24:210:24:25

Erm...

0:24:250:24:27

Erm...

0:24:270:24:28

I have books.

0:24:280:24:30

Lots and lots of books.

0:24:300:24:33

Anne-Marie is the sort of student

that every English teacher

0:24:330:24:36

wants in their class.

0:24:360:24:38

But she's so uncomfortable with her

own potential and abilities.

0:24:380:24:44

What makes you uncomfortable?

0:24:440:24:46

Everything.

0:24:460:24:47

Everything?

0:24:470:24:49

Is this a common issue for kids

from disadvantaged backgrounds?

0:24:490:24:53

A lot of pupils who come from such

backgrounds are the sort of pupils

0:24:530:24:56

who absolutely have low self-esteem.

0:24:560:25:00

She's very anxious person as well.

0:25:000:25:03

But at the same time she is capable

of a lot more than she thinks.

0:25:030:25:07

BELL RINGS.

0:25:070:25:15

So up here is science.

0:25:230:25:25

Science is one of my

favourite lessons.

0:25:250:25:29

In year eight I got

the gold award for science.

0:25:290:25:35

Liam is, you know,

he's incredibly bright.

0:25:350:25:38

We've done the first

kind of GCSE test.

0:25:380:25:40

So obviously it goes

from one to nine.

0:25:400:25:44

Where five would be

the new good GCSE.

0:25:440:25:46

And he got a nine which is,

you know, fantastic.

0:25:460:25:49

It's the highest you can get now.

0:25:490:25:52

You think about the grammar schools

and the private schools.

0:25:520:25:54

Why should they get all the luck?

0:25:540:25:56

If a kid is bright then they should

continue to be bright and we should

0:25:560:25:59

be doing everything we can to ensure

that they are making the best

0:25:590:26:02

possible progress for them.

0:26:020:26:03

How do you see science

in your future?

0:26:030:26:07

Yeah, like I want to become a chef

and apply science to cooking.

0:26:070:26:10

Amazing.

0:26:100:26:12

You know, cooking is mostly

chemical changes, isn't it?

0:26:120:26:15

All they have seen around

them is low ambition.

0:26:150:26:19

When people ask about what comes out

of this area, it's Geordie Shore.

0:26:190:26:23

When you ask the kids,

that's what they know

0:26:230:26:25

of Newcastle, Geordie Shore.

0:26:250:26:28

It's sad, really, because

they've got John Dobson

0:26:280:26:31

and George Stephenson,

amazing, you know,

0:26:310:26:32

scientists from this area.

0:26:320:26:35

That they have got no

clue about even though

0:26:350:26:37

part of the school is

named after them!

0:26:370:26:40

BELL RINGS.

0:26:400:26:48

OK then, you lot.

0:26:510:26:52

Shhh!

0:26:520:26:55

You lot, year nines.

0:26:550:26:56

Shakira.

0:26:560:26:59

In you come.

0:26:590:27:02

That's amazing.

0:27:020:27:05

So when you do homeworks

and sketches, try and do as much

0:27:050:27:08

as you can like that.

0:27:080:27:09

Because that's brilliant.

0:27:090:27:10

That's nice.

0:27:100:27:11

That's what I'm getting tattooed.

0:27:110:27:12

You're getting tattooed?

0:27:120:27:13

When are you getting a tattoo?

0:27:130:27:15

That's what I want my job to be.

0:27:150:27:21

With Shakira I think this is one

of my favourite subjects

0:27:210:27:23

because she is one of the best.

0:27:230:27:25

This is the type of

stuff I'm looking for.

0:27:250:27:27

Because that's really going to...

0:27:270:27:28

But she thinks she

can't achieve things.

0:27:280:27:30

It's just confidence.

0:27:300:27:32

It's a much harder task

to get through to someone

0:27:320:27:35

on free school meals.

0:27:350:27:39

Because of their constant struggle

or their constant battle

0:27:390:27:41

with believing in themselves.

0:27:410:27:46

Because people often think

if you are on free school

0:27:460:27:49

meals or if you're poor,

then you cannot

0:27:490:27:51

achieve anything.

0:27:510:27:52

BELL RINGS.

0:27:520:27:56

Did you put your name

down for the Rome trip?

0:27:560:27:58

I was going to, but my mum said

she hadn't got enough money to pay

0:27:580:28:02

for it because of what's

going on with Leo and that.

0:28:020:28:05

And I haven't got a passport, so.

0:28:050:28:07

So why don't you come and see

us about those things?

0:28:070:28:11

Because part of my job is to make

sure that anybody that's

0:28:110:28:13

in a difficult situation,

there is money available to support.

0:28:130:28:18

The big barrier that

she has is confidence.

0:28:180:28:22

But you find that one

thing that is the talent,

0:28:220:28:24

the skill, the interest,

and it suddenly opens the doors.

0:28:240:28:28

You should be confident, you know.

0:28:280:28:29

You enjoy singing.

0:28:290:28:32

It enables them to realise that

they're good at something,

0:28:320:28:35

realise that they can

belong to something.

0:28:350:28:37

And that enables you to sort

of broaden that horizon.

0:28:370:28:40

She doesn't just have to be Shakira

from Belgrave who lives in Tamworth

0:28:400:28:43

and dies in Tamworth.

0:28:430:28:50

An extract from

Generation Gifted, there.

0:28:500:28:53

We did ask the government to join

us but they declined.

0:28:530:28:58

With me is Jon Spears -

who you saw in that film -

0:28:580:29:02

he's an assistant head

at Tamworth Enterprise College.

0:29:020:29:05

Also here is the historian

Selina Todd - she's a professor

0:29:050:29:08

in modern history at Oxford

University.

0:29:080:29:13

She has written about the history of

the working class. Interesting to

0:29:130:29:18

watch that. When you are teaching,

how much priority do you give to the

0:29:180:29:24

more gifted disadvantaged students

as opposed to the others?

Well, as

0:29:240:29:29

opposed to the others, it's got to

be as well as the others. We can't

0:29:290:29:33

single out one group. You know,

philosophically and morally, as a

0:29:330:29:41

teacher, every student in the room

is gifted. In terms of the higher

0:29:410:29:45

ability, we need to push as much as

we can.

Do you give them extra

0:29:450:29:48

lessons, do they hang around?

Yes,

we do, we look to do extra lessons.

0:29:480:29:54

It is an issue because of funding

and staffing, being able to afford

0:29:540:29:59

that resource is an issue for us. We

have extra classes in registration

0:29:590:30:04

times through the day as well.

Certain times of the year we might

0:30:040:30:09

collapse a subject and intensify the

maths and English.

Of the people are

0:30:090:30:17

presented in the documentary, the

more academically bright students,

0:30:170:30:21

let's say, from less advantaged

backgrounds, free school meals,

0:30:210:30:24

basically, what sort of number

should go to university and what

0:30:240:30:28

kind will go to university?

Well, I

suppose in a year group of 200, a

0:30:280:30:36

good 40%, on paper, should be able

to go to university from our school

0:30:360:30:39

and given our intake and their

predicted grades. In terms of how

0:30:390:30:47

many will, will go to university,

it's often a very different picture.

0:30:470:30:52

Much lower, yeah. There's obviously

such a broad range of factors that

0:30:520:30:58

mean it's an issue.

Let me turn to

you, Selina. We have a traditional

0:30:580:31:06

motion of social mobility, that it's

about helping people whose talent

0:31:060:31:12

might otherwise be wasted, giving

them the leg up so they can exploit

0:31:120:31:18

their potential. Is that the right

notion of social mobility?

No, I'd

0:31:180:31:23

argue that part of the real problem

with social mobility is that it has

0:31:230:31:27

been used by successive governments

as really an opposition to equality.

0:31:270:31:33

What has been described here is

excellent practice in a nonselective

0:31:330:31:37

school that seeks to value every

child and say that every child

0:31:370:31:42

matters but what we've seen with the

political and media discourse around

0:31:420:31:45

social mobility is that only a few

are talented and we have to somehow

0:31:450:31:50

get them on. Historically that

doesn't work. The place where it was

0:31:500:31:56

enshrined, one of the teachers on

the documentary mentions the grammar

0:31:560:32:00

schools. Between 1945 and the 70s

the system is all about selection of

0:32:000:32:06

the so-called brightest.

Which

involves taking them out.

And giving

0:32:060:32:11

them a particular education. It is

predicated on the idea that children

0:32:110:32:16

from working-class backgrounds are

disadvantaged, a work that has been

0:32:160:32:19

used tonight, that their background

gives them nothing, they need to be

0:32:190:32:23

taken out on it, but they can be

prepared for university. The fact is

0:32:230:32:28

it didn't work because we now know

you cannot test or define brightness

0:32:280:32:33

at 11 or even 16. Also it didn't

work because the fact is that

0:32:330:32:39

education alone cannot lead to

social mobility.

Are you saying it's

0:32:390:32:43

not desirable to get those

youngsters into university? You're

0:32:430:32:47

not arguing that, are you?

No,

everybody who wants to go to

0:32:470:32:52

university should be able to and if

I had my way, I would elect Jeremy

0:32:520:32:57

Corbyn tomorrow, I would end these

pernicious tuition fees, I would

0:32:570:33:01

properly fund comprehensibility

education and I would say, let's

0:33:010:33:06

rise up as a society and get rid of

this ridiculous inequality.

What do

0:33:060:33:10

you do, suppose Jeremy Corbyn

doesn't win the election tomorrow,

0:33:100:33:16

where resources are limited, in a

school like Jon's. Do you focus on

0:33:160:33:23

the brighter ones and focus on

getting them to university?

I don't

0:33:230:33:28

think that is being done at Jon's

school, but that is right because

0:33:280:33:33

these kids are not lacking

aspiration, they are lacking

0:33:330:33:36

material resources because...

Is

that true, Jon?

There is an element

0:33:360:33:43

of aspiration but that is a knock-on

about the material resources. Social

0:33:430:33:49

mobility for the students isn't just

about getting a group to university,

0:33:490:33:53

it has to be about improving

housing, improving the income of the

0:33:530:33:57

families and actually wrapping

around the whole child. We are

0:33:570:34:02

seeing cuts constantly, with mental

health and all those other specs

0:34:020:34:05

that are so vital...

What is the

main barrier to progress of those

0:34:050:34:14

children? Is it home, chaotic lives,

the teaching resources, the school?

0:34:140:34:22

This is the crux of the issue which

is why there isn't a magic bullet to

0:34:220:34:27

solve the problem. It's everything.

They have home lives which are

0:34:270:34:33

chaotic, sometimes. I know through

my own Jordan Cameron I've had a

0:34:330:34:37

stressful day I'm not necessarily

going to be devoting the time to

0:34:370:34:41

educate at home in the way I should.

-- through my own children, if I've

0:34:410:34:47

had a stressful day. As we saw with

Shaqiri, I am desperately wants

0:34:470:34:54

better for her but she's at a loss.

Selina, very briefly, pin you down,

0:34:540:35:01

you are telling people not to go

with the notion of social mobility,

0:35:010:35:07

as popularly talked about, that it

isn't the right metric to judge

0:35:070:35:11

success?

If we say that success

means that people can lead lives

0:35:110:35:15

that they find fulfilling and where

they can provide for their families

0:35:150:35:19

then we must expand employment

opportunities and stop asking

0:35:190:35:22

schools to do the work that

government should be doing.

The

0:35:220:35:25

education system at the moment isn't

doing that fully.

Thanks very much.

0:35:250:35:33

As political portraits go,

the ones unveiled yesterday

0:35:330:35:35

of Barack and Michelle Obama -

you might have seen them,

0:35:350:35:38

they're all over the place today -

are pretty radical.

0:35:380:35:45

African-American subjects,

by African-American artists in

0:35:450:35:46

striking poses.

0:35:460:35:48

They'll "shake up the expectations

and assumptions of visitors

0:35:480:35:52

to the traditionally button-down

presidential galleries," said

0:35:520:35:54

the Washington Post.

0:35:540:35:55

"Pretty sharp" said Mr Obama.

0:35:550:35:57

Well, few politically-themed

paintings get quite as much

0:35:570:35:59

attention as those two have,

and all the chatter made us wonder

0:35:590:36:02

what it is that makes

a great political portrait.

0:36:020:36:04

Who better to give us an illustrated

talk through that than Nicola Green?

0:36:040:36:09

She has herself painted portraits of

Obama in his 2008 campaign. We're

0:36:090:36:15

going to do this with illustrations

starting with an old one. Let's go

0:36:150:36:21

back to Elizabeth the first. Well,

this is 16th century painting, she

0:36:210:36:27

is standing on top of the Earth.

What's special about this?

This is

0:36:270:36:32

an early political portrait. I guess

there are three elements to it, the

0:36:320:36:39

collaboration, between the subject,

the institution that commissions it

0:36:390:36:42

and the artist. And in these early

portraits, in a sense the monarch

0:36:420:36:50

had absolute power in the 3-way

collaboration. So she didn't

0:36:500:36:56

actually commissioned portrait, it

was commissioned by Ditchley, but he

0:36:560:37:01

wanted to impress her and obviously

the artist did too. She had absolute

0:37:010:37:06

power.

She's standing on top of the

world. They did things like that,

0:37:060:37:12

they wore things like that then.

It

is the ultimate power dressed! She

0:37:120:37:17

has jewels and lace. This was just

after the defeat of the Armada. The

0:37:170:37:23

portrait expresses the beginning of

Empire and that absolute power.

So

0:37:230:37:28

power is the word you keep using.

Let's go onto another one, jumping

0:37:280:37:32

ahead hundreds of years. Churchill.

This is Graham Sutherland's famous

0:37:320:37:37

one, which people who have watched

the first series of the Crown, this

0:37:370:37:44

was in one of the episodes.

Barcelonnette powerful?

This is a

0:37:440:37:49

really interesting portrait because

it was very controversial,

0:37:490:37:54

Parliament and the House of Lords

commissioned the portrait for his

0:37:540:37:59

80th birthday -- does he look

powerful? It was a birthday present

0:37:590:38:02

to Winston Churchill and was

presented to him and everyone loved

0:38:020:38:08

it and it was critically acclaimed.

He could understand it, he hated it

0:38:080:38:11

because I think it didn't the picked

him in a position of power.

He is

0:38:110:38:19

old, basically.

He is old and he

said he thought he looked drunk in

0:38:190:38:23

it. But actually Sutherland didn't

see it like that, he was inspired by

0:38:230:38:30

Winston Churchill saying, I am a

Rock and he saw it as solid.

Let's

0:38:300:38:36

go through another couple. We have

Kennedy here, this is the ship Le

0:38:360:38:41

Mans, I think it was done after the

death of Kennedy.

It was

0:38:410:38:46

commissioned Jackie Kennedy. She

said she wanted a portrait where he

0:38:460:38:51

wasn't looking out with a piercing

gaze, she was bored of that. She

0:38:510:38:56

wanted this kind of pose. The artist

said he wanted to depict him as a

0:38:560:39:02

thinker and reflective but of course

you can't help feeling about the

0:39:020:39:06

national crisis and the personal

crisis of what happened to Kennedy

0:39:060:39:10

and how he died. But you know this

was a radical portrait and when it

0:39:100:39:15

was made, amongst the other

presidential portraits which were

0:39:150:39:22

more of an assertion of power, this

is more reflective.

You picked them

0:39:220:39:28

but I like all of these! Let's go to

this Obama one. Do you like it?

He's

0:39:280:39:36

a good friend of mine, I saw him in

November and he talked about the

0:39:360:39:41

process of photographing and

choosing the pose, the artist. For

0:39:410:39:46

him, that's great, it was

commissioned by the National

0:39:460:39:52

portrait Gallery, by the American

people. I know what that

0:39:520:39:56

responsibility feels like. A great

weight.

I think for a political

0:39:560:40:04

pose, the backdrop is what is

obviously striking.

Incredibly

0:40:040:40:07

striking. Sitting down, Jefferson's

portrait, George W were sitting in

0:40:070:40:14

this pose, it is meant to signify

being a man of the people. In a way

0:40:140:40:18

that isn't uncommon but the foliage,

which Kehinde Wiley is known for, he

0:40:180:40:27

has the chrysanthemums of Chicago

and the blue lilies, representing

0:40:270:40:31

cannier, where Obama's father was

from and the jasmine, from Hawaii.

0:40:310:40:37

In a sense it is about identity. He

talked about wanting to think about

0:40:370:40:42

whether the story of Obama, the

story around him was bigger than

0:40:420:40:48

Obama himself and I think that's

represented by the foliage.

I like

0:40:480:40:53

it very much. Thanks for talking to

us.

0:40:530:40:56

That's it for tonight.

0:40:560:40:59

I will be back tomorrow but until

then, good night.

0:40:590:41:02

With Evan Davis.

Boris Johnson says Brexit is a liberal project, the Oxfam scandal, ambition and state schools, plus what makes a political painting?