20/02/2018 Newsnight


20/02/2018

With Evan Davis.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Payday like today is not a day for

sound bites, we will leave those at

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home.

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sound bites, we will leave those at

home. . I feel the under history our

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shoulder, I really do, and I just

think we need to acknowledge that

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and respond to it. Maybe it is

impossible to find a way through,

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maybe with the best faith in the

world you cannot do it, but it is to

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try.

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That was two decades ago -

the people voted,

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and the Good Friday

Agreement was signed,

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cementing the peace

in Northern Ireland.

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Now, with Brexit on its way,

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comes the idea that the

agreement is flawed.

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There's no question

that these Brexit extremists,

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in their hard-line support

for a particular dogmatic

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position of Brexit,

are actually playing with fire,

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they're in danger in the peace

process, and they could incite

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dissident IRA groups.

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A new potential strain on relations

between the Unionists and

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nationalists, the UK and Ireland.

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But does it make sense to rewrite

an agreement that is not

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delivering self-rule anyway?

We hear from the Irish government.

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Also tonight, the rebel-held Syrian

enclave of Eastern Ghouta

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could become a second Aleppo,

says the UN.

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Almost 200 people

have died in bombings

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by government forces there

since Sunday.

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And a male model tells us

of the inappropriate

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behaviour he faces at work.

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Hello.

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Two challenges make this a fraught

time in Northern Ireland.

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One, it can't agree on self

government, and two, Brexit.

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And so it has been interesting

to watch, in the last few days,

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a small number of keen Brexit

supporters suggest that the

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20-year-old Good Friday Agreement

is past its sell-by date.

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Kate Hoey said it's time

for a "cold, rational look at it."

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MEP Daniel Hannan wrote a Telegraph

piece arguing that British ministers

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should "start working

with their Irish counterparts

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on improving the system."

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It's gently phrased,

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and it's not a Brexit point

they are making per se,

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but this sentiment has only

come from that side.

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There's an interesting

linguistic point here, too -

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critics of the agreement tend

to call it the Belfast Agreement,

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perhaps because Good Friday makes

it sound too holy or reverential.

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But whatever you call it,

for many, the agreement is,

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of course, synonymous with peace.

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Today, the Irish government called

those who questioned it "reckless".

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The British said they stand

by it "steadfastly".

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So what is going on?

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Our political editor,

Nick Watt, reports.

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Yes, 71.12%.

The British people have

spoken and the answer is we are out.

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They were seismic votes changing the

intertwined history of these

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islands, and the legacy of those

referendums, nearly two decades

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apart, are haunting the politics of

today.

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today. Remain supporters trim of

keeping the UK in the EU, and now

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some Unionist supporters believe the

time has come to revisit the Good

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Friday Agreement after last week's

failure to restore power-sharing.

I

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think the word refresh of the Good

Friday Agreement of the Belfast

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Agreement, as I would call it, is

actually quite important, because

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time changes lots and lots of

things, and of course what we are

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seeing under direct rule, we have

that space to look at it. We can't

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have a situation where there are two

parties in mandatory coalition and

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one can always pull the plug and say

we are walking away, and then they

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don't go back in until they get some

new demands.

Today, the Government

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made clear it stands foursquare

behind the agreement.

As the House

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will recognise, this April marks the

anniversary of the historic Belfast

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Agreement. That agreement, along

with successors, has been

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fundamental in helping Northern

Ireland moved forward from its

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violent past 12 bright, more secure

future, and this Government's

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support for the agreements remain

steadfast, as does the commitment to

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govern for everybody in Northern

Ireland.

There is fury in senior

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parts of government after senior

Tories lent their wits to a rethink

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on the agreement, one said it would

be the height of absurdity to make

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unilateral changes to the 1998

agreement. From the Prime Minister

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downwards, there is a determination

to establish all of its institutions

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by brokering a deal between the DUP

and Sinn Fein. But one of the

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original signatories to the Good

Friday Agreement says that

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government must act by introducing a

short Parliamentary bill to hand the

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powers vested in the Northern

Ireland power-sharing executive to

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its assembly.

Instead of just going

on with London's intervening from

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time to time to do things, but not

having proper decisions made by

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people who have their roots in

Northern Ireland and are accountable

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to the electorate, the only way we

can proceed is by having a situation

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where the assembly can function

without an executive will stop and I

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think that is possible, and it would

be a wake of avoiding the present

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impasse.

A former Northern Ireland

Secretary who presided over changes

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to the Good Friday Agreement a

decade ago act acknowledges that

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there is a precedent for amending

the accord. But he warns that today

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is's calls for change, mainly from

Brexit supporters, could have grave

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consequences.

There is no question

that these Brextremists, in their

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hard-line support for a particular

dogmatic position on Brexit, are

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actually playing with fire,

endangering the peace process, and

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they could incite dissident IRA

groups who are very well armed and

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have made attacks and killed people

in recent years, although they are

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very isolated and marginalised at

the moment, it could incite greater

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support for them and a greater

threat from them.

I don't think

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there's any threat, any long-term

threat to what we agreed 20 years

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ago. And I don't think there's any

chance of there being a breakdown

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and a return to violence.

Sinn Fein

agrees that dissident republicans

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pose no threat to the peace process,

but the party warns of the dangers

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of challenging the Good Friday

Agreement.

These interventions

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represents nothing more than a

wrecker's charter, and in fact the

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very wrong-headed and irresponsible

nature of the interventions at this

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particular point in time, in fact,

exaggerate the extent of the

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political crisis that we are living

through. The Good Friday Agreement

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has been under relentless push back

from sections of political unionism

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from when it was first signed.

Referendums are meant to settle

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political disputes for a generation,

from the Good Friday Agreement to

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Brexit, we are learning that to some

they are not the final word.

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Nick Watt reporting.

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I am now joined from Dublin

by the Minister for European Affairs

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in the Irish government,

Helen McEntee.

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Good evening to you, thanks for

joining us, what is your reaction to

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this debate that has cropped up in

this country over the last few days?

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Well, what I would welcome, firstly,

is comments by Karen Bradley and

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other members of the British

Government, who have very clearly

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said that the Good Friday Agreement

is the only way to move forward and

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is essentially the only show in

town. The Good Friday Agreement is

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an international peace Treaty and

has been for the last 20 years the

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only way that every political voice,

every political view and expression

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has been heard and can be heard, and

I think for any suggestions that

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have been made that it is past its

sell by date, that it is no longer

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of use, I would ask those people too

maybe reflect on what things were

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like 20 years ago, before the

agreement was in place. So I welcome

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confirmation from the British

Government that it is the only way

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forward, and the Irish government

are saying the same.

Let's break

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this down, what would happen if the

British Government did unilaterally

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change aspects of the Good Friday

Agreement in an attempt to make it

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work better, for example? What

actually happens if it does do that?

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Well, I mean, the Good Friday

Agreement is an international peace

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treaty, a young treaty, and you

would be essentially changing the

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way in which citizens north and

South, East and West work with each

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other, engage with each other, and

what we have seen over the past 20

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years is that we have been able to

work together, parties in the north

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have been able to work in a

power-sharing executive. Yes, we

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have hit a bump in the road, but

that has not been we need to

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completely change path, it just

means we need to work together, and

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that is our focus, the Irish,'s

focus -- the Irish's government

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focus to work with everyone to make

sure that those elements of the

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agreement can be upheld.

Obviously,

we can't go on forever pretending

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that the agreement is working if it

is not delivering an assembly or an

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executive in Northern Ireland that

is operating. How long would you

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give it before everybody has to sit

down and think again? It has been,

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what, 30 months now, do you go on

and on saying, let's try?

Well, I

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mean, I think it is disappointing

that we are over one year on and

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that we don't have an executive, and

last week's events were obviously of

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concern, but there are a number of

mechanisms through which we can work

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on what is happening, the executive

being the most important one, but we

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also have areas of cooperation, the

North-South Ministerial Council and

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the British Irish Council, and we

need to make sure, in the absence of

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a functioning executive, that they

are given the power and ability to

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uphold the elements of the

agreement.

You have said something

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very important, sorry to interrupt,

something very important - is that

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your backstop, substitute for the

working of the executive and the

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assembly? Your substitute is joint

sovereignty of the Republic and the

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UK over Northern Ireland? Is that

what you want to see if the parties

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in the North don't get together?

Well, what we want to see is an

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executive functioning Emma North,

and what we will do is work with the

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British governor...

I understand

that, but what is your Plan B?

To

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make sure those mechanisms are in

place, the North-South Ministerial

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Council and the British Irish

Council are already there, already

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functioning, and in the absence of

an executive, we need to make sure

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that we are working to the best of

our ability...

I understand your

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focus, I understand that getting it

to work, yeah, yeah. But what about

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plans to reform our Northern Ireland

works? You could say that he would

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move to the Welsh model, the

assembly chooses the executive, you

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don't enshrine in an international

peace treaty, you know, a coalition

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that will permanently operate

between the two sites, you say, we

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will let the assembly picket. If

they can't get it together, would

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you be open to the idea of joint

talks, not unilateral, where that

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was the kind of thing on the table?

The Good Friday Agreement as, I

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think, the full support of the

Northern Ireland citizens, and also

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citizens in the Republic as well,

and we heard the statistics at the

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beginning of the show, over 71% of

people overwhelmingly voted in

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favour of this process, this

mechanism, joint power and

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cooperation, and in the south those

figures bring it up to 94%. So the

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idea of trying to amend something

that has worked very successfully,

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as I said, yes, we have hit a bump

in the road, yes, there are

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challenges not just in Northern

Ireland, but obviously with Brexit,

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and we are dealing with those, but I

think the Good Friday Agreement is

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something that we need to work

with...

Helen McEntee, that point

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you have made very clearly, thanks

so much for joining us.

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Now, Nick Watt joins me with news

of further ructions in the Tory

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ranks this evening over Brexit.

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What has been happening?

I was

talking to a Remain member of the

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Cabinet this afternoon, who was very

cheerful after the speech by David

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Davis, when he said the UK would not

have a race to the bottom with the

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EU, but then this letter from 62

members of the Eurosceptic group was

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leaked to Sam Coates of the Times,

and this makes clear that they take

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a much more restrictive view of what

the Clemente is, the transition

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period would look like.

Away harder

line than David Davis was saying?

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They are essentially saying to the

Prime Minister, be very careful,

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don't go too far in what you

concede. I have been talking to

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sources in that European research

group, and they are saying there are

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hundreds of us, that is the message

to Number Ten, so you better watch

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out. But interestingly, they say

their real target is not Theresa

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May, it is the Cabinet Secretary,

and the UK's chief negotiator. They

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are concerned that they are going to

lay down what they regard as tricks,

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so that in 13 months' time, when we

are out of the EU, our hands can be

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restricted.

Briefly, what about

Labour? Has the language changed,

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inching towards a clear position

about being in out of the customs

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union?

Jeremy Corbyn said that the

UK would have to be in a customs

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union with the EU, that would be

important to sort out the Northern

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Ireland border, so not the customs

union. Labour says they can't be in

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that because you have to

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that because you have to respect the

result of the referendum, but the

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reason they say a customs union and

not in the single market is that you

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don't have the regulatory

requirements of the European Court

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of Justice.

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Every day, more names are brought

forward in the campaign

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against inappropriate behaviour,

of all kinds, at work.

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The charity sector is feeling

the heat at the moment,

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and today the PM programme

on Radio 4 revealed allegations

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of inappropriate behaviour

against the former CEO

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of Save the Children

UK, Justin Forsyth.

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Now although you may

not have heard of him,

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Mr Forsyth is a important player

in international aid

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charities.

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He was a close associate

of Brendan Cox -

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both of them were at Save

the Children, and both also worked

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for Gordon Brown at Number 10.

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When Mr Brown was caught on mic

referring to Gillian Duffy

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as a bigoted woman, he was talking

to Justin Forsyth.

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The new accusation is that

while running Save the Children

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before 2015, there were three

separate complaints of inappropriate

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behaviour towards female

members of staff by him,

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sending a series

of inappropriate texts,

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commenting on how they looked,

and prompting them to respond.

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Mr Forsyth left and has since gone

on to one of the most

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senior posts at Unicef,

the UN children's fund.

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He admits to having made some

personal mistakes during his time

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at Save the Children,

specifically admitting

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to what he described as "unsuitable

and thoughtless" conversations

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with colleagues, which he

subsequently apologised for.

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He added that there were

no formal complaints,

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and that they were dealt

with through mediation.

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Save the Children told us

that they were commissioning

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a root-and-branch review

of its organisational culture,

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and that they apologised for any

pain these matters had caused.

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To reflect on all of this I have the

Labour MP Peter Carlin, a man who

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himself has worked in international

aid crisis charities. Do you think

0:16:290:16:34

that Justin Forsyth should be

working for Unicef in a senior role?

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There are questions about that right

now. The important thing is that

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Unicef is in touch with Save the

Children, Unicef said there doing

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that. I do not know the details of

this but it is clear that that needs

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to be looked at in light of these

revelations.

Unicef have said they

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are aware of the media reports and

welcome the decision of us to

0:16:570:17:01

Forsyth to come forward and

acknowledge past mistakes and that

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they are discussing this with him

and with Unicef and Save the

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Children. Not physical accusations

in this case, but the sheer volume

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of things coming out about the

charity sector must be damaging it.

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Of course and we know it is. But

some of these accusations are

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grotesque and from very senior

managers, that is the thing that is

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most shocking. It is clear that in

some of these organisations there is

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the sense that protection of a moral

organisation is more important that

0:17:330:17:37

individuals working in it. You've

seen the same thing in the church,

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and the BBC. Some people feel

organisations are so morally

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important and significant that

covering up things within the

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organisation is worthwhile and a

means to an end. We've seen that in

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the charity sector recently and it

needs to be busted.

Just culturally

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I wonder whether part of the

interest in this, it is

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organisations that seem to be on the

high moral ground being brought down

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by personal foibles and

inappropriate behaviour of the

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people within them. I wonder if that

is feeding some of the interest.

No

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doubt. It is quite right to hold

people in the charitable sector to a

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higher standard than perhaps others.

We do have high expectations of

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people doing this moral work.

British aid works, the people

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working in the front line, the vast

majority are extraordinary people

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who put themselves into harm. We had

four aid workers killed last week.

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So people are doing some

extraordinary work. But I have been

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a front line aid worker as well and

I've seen the work that does not

0:18:510:18:55

meet the moral standards we would

expect from organisations. Sexually?

0:18:550:19:02

In almost ten years doing this work

I never saw anything that was

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criminal or even a whisper of some

of the things that are being

0:19:060:19:09

revealed now. But I did see work

that was overly territorial,

0:19:090:19:14

culturally inappropriate for the

kind of work they were doing and

0:19:140:19:18

some of that morally indefensible.

One example I could give you if we

0:19:180:19:22

have time. I was doing some work,

asking for assistance from a British

0:19:220:19:32

Nato general. He told me he had put

up the order to stop working as

0:19:320:19:37

well-known, large international

charity based in the UK because he

0:19:370:19:41

had offered work and had refused and

the reason given was they had a lot

0:19:410:19:45

of money given to that organisation

from British donors and by law that

0:19:450:19:49

money must be spent within that

country. And that charity did not

0:19:490:19:53

want to be in that country for a

long time so they literally were

0:19:530:19:56

squandering money. I have been

saying this stuff for a long time

0:19:560:19:59

and now I have the platform as an

MP, people are listening more.

This

0:19:590:20:04

goes well beyond the sexual

harassment and exploitation customer

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the aid industry has become very

competitive and that tipped over to

0:20:130:20:17

becoming territorial and further to

being secret.

So when bad things

0:20:170:20:21

happen, whether work that does not

go right, whether a member of staff

0:20:210:20:26

not performing right or some of the

really dangerous stuff we have heard

0:20:260:20:31

recently, then the instinct is to

hide it. So there is a link between

0:20:310:20:35

these different things. Culturally

we need to look at the aid industry,

0:20:350:20:39

do the investigations and the

enquiries as the Charity Commission

0:20:390:20:43

is doing now and also have a root

and branch think about how we use

0:20:430:20:49

these big aid agencies. The

behaviour that we incentivise from

0:20:490:20:53

aid agencies. And get off a lot

better at getting the right people

0:20:530:20:57

into the right jobs on a front line.

And if they drop perform we have to

0:20:570:21:01

get them of there. -- if they do not

perform.

0:21:010:21:06

A lot is happening in Syria

right now - a war that is,

0:21:060:21:09

if it was possible,

ever more brutal and

0:21:090:21:11

ever more complicated.

0:21:110:21:12

There has been a tragic

intensification of the bombardment

0:21:120:21:15

of Eastern Ghouta, outside Damascus.

0:21:150:21:16

Huge numbers of deaths

in the last couple of days.

0:21:160:21:18

More on that in a few minutes,

but let's hear more

0:21:180:21:21

about the other development first.

0:21:210:21:22

Because today, in a sign

of the messiness of the coalitions

0:21:220:21:25

fighting with or against each other,

the Syrian government found

0:21:250:21:27

itself fighting the Turks,

in order to defend Kurdish forces

0:21:270:21:29

who have been fighting

the Syrian government.

0:21:290:21:32

Our diplomatic editor,

Mark Urban, is with me now.

0:21:320:21:38

To me this just seems very peculiar.

What has been happening? Well since

0:21:380:21:46

Islamic State so-called was defeated

in the east of Syria, additional

0:21:460:21:50

forces have been available and are

focused on three places. Idlib in

0:21:500:21:56

the north, Ghouta and another area

where the incident was going on

0:21:560:22:03

today, between Syria and Turkish

forces, in Afrin. The town is that a

0:22:030:22:10

key point on the Turkish border.

Kurdish forces are there. They said

0:22:100:22:18

they are the PKK, the same people

who have been mounting attacks in

0:22:180:22:22

Turkey over many years and they have

gone in there to sort them out. The

0:22:220:22:28

Kurds in Afrin have always had an

ambiguous relationship with the

0:22:280:22:32

Damascus government certainly in

recent years. In times they appeared

0:22:320:22:35

to be in opposition to them but in

general they seem to have some de

0:22:350:22:40

facto agreements. Now the Damascus

government is siding with them and

0:22:400:22:44

trying to protect them from this

Turkish attack.

Does it look better

0:22:440:22:52

for some kind of peace that these

former enemies and can now sit down

0:22:520:22:57

and talk?

No, is the short answer

because they always had this de

0:22:570:23:03

facto corporative relationship. This

particular area of the Kurdish

0:23:030:23:07

resistance. And you have the

Americans bordering on the area, the

0:23:070:23:12

Iranians and Russians also involved.

It is a dangerous situation in the

0:23:120:23:16

north of Syria.

Well going back to

the issue of Easter in Ghouta. And

0:23:160:23:22

we have been looking at how it is

receiving such treatment.

0:23:220:23:28

Since Sunday, there's been

a sharp increase in Syrian

0:23:280:23:31

military attacks on Ghouta -

dozens of airstrikes a day have been

0:23:310:23:34

hitting the besieged enclave,

and the death toll is now

0:23:340:23:37

approaching 200 in those three days.

0:23:370:23:41

For the quarter of a million

or so people who live there, it's

0:23:410:23:48

been one of the worst times in more

than six years of conflict.

0:23:480:23:51

We are witnessing some of the worst

fighting of the entire conflict

0:23:510:23:54

and the widespread destruction

of civilian infrastructure.

0:23:540:23:56

Including medical facilities.

0:23:560:23:57

WHO has received reports of attacks

on five hospitals in eastern Ghouta

0:23:570:24:02

and is working to verify these

reports and the casualties.

0:24:020:24:06

We continue to call for unimpeded

access to eastern Ghouta to provide

0:24:060:24:09

medical supplies that will mean

the difference between life

0:24:090:24:12

and death for the very sick

and injured and for the immediate

0:24:120:24:16

evacuation of urgent medical cases.

0:24:160:24:19

From the outset, geography defined

the conflict in Ghouta.

0:24:190:24:24

Its location on the eastern

outskirts of Damascus made it easy

0:24:240:24:28

for rebel groups to move

to and from Sunni-dominated areas

0:24:280:24:32

to the east and north.

0:24:320:24:34

And government positions

on Mount Qasioun, which is heavily

0:24:340:24:37

fortified, in the al Assad suburb,

as the name suggests a regime

0:24:370:24:41

stronghold, and in Adra,

site of another big army base,

0:24:410:24:46

all helped to hem in the Ghouta

pocket and were used as launching

0:24:460:24:49

spots for attacks on it.

0:24:490:24:53

But those holding out inside have

refused to capitulate.

0:24:530:24:59

Just a few miles from central

Damascus, Ghouta was the target

0:24:590:25:01

of a chemical weapons attack in 2013

- the aim then, according

0:25:010:25:06

to the Pentagon, was to follow up

with infantry and storm the enclave.

0:25:060:25:12

That attack failed.

0:25:120:25:14

Tonight there are also reports

of Syrian troops moving

0:25:140:25:16

to assault positions.

0:25:160:25:24

Within the enclave are

several thousand fighters

0:25:370:25:39

from different groups.

0:25:390:25:42

Jaish al Islam -

a militant Islamist group -

0:25:420:25:44

holds eastern and northern areas.

0:25:440:25:47

Ahrar al Sham, at one stage

Qatari backed and linked

0:25:470:25:50

to the Muslim Brotherhood,

a pocket in the west.

0:25:500:25:53

And Faylaq al Rahman is in the south

- they're affiliated to the Turkish

0:25:530:25:57

backed Free Syrian Army.

0:25:570:25:59

At times these factions have

clashed, but equally,

0:25:590:26:03

none has been tempted by the Assad

government's offers to switch sides.

0:26:030:26:11

Now, earlier today we spoke

to Seraj Mahmoud, a volunteer

0:26:130:26:16

with the Syrian Civil Defence team

otherwise known

0:26:160:26:18

as the White Helmets.

0:26:180:26:20

For the last 48 hours,

Seraj and his fellow

0:26:200:26:22

volunteers have been

recovering the dead and the injured

0:26:220:26:24

sifting through the rubble.

0:26:240:26:27

Earlier today, Seraj told us he lost

one of his colleagues

0:26:270:26:30

in the bombardment and in the last

40 days his division

0:26:300:26:33

lost four volunteers.

0:26:330:26:35

He spoke to us from Douma

city in Eastern Ghouta,

0:26:350:26:37

where he was seeking shelter

from the ongoing bombardment.

0:26:370:26:45

Joining me now is Geert Cappelaere,

Unicefs's regional director

0:28:360:28:40

for the Middle East

and North Africa.

0:28:400:28:46

Thank you for coming in. How does

Easter in Ghouta compared to some of

0:28:460:28:52

the other names that have become

grimly famous in this Syrian war

0:28:520:28:56

such as Aleppo?

The situation is

comparable with what we've seen over

0:28:560:29:03

the past seven years. Very

comparable from the point of view of

0:29:030:29:07

the children. Today once again

dozens of children have been killed

0:29:070:29:12

in eastern Ghouta, several children

have been killed in Damascus.

0:29:120:29:19

Children simply continue paying the

highest price of a brutal war that

0:29:190:29:26

is not of their making.

UN envoy

Stephane said it has the risk of

0:29:260:29:35

becoming a second Aleppo and he

hopes we have learnt lessons from

0:29:350:29:39

that. What lessons have we learnt

from Aleppo that we did not already

0:29:390:29:45

know? It seems the world is

powerless to do anything.

One

0:29:450:29:49

important lesson learned from

eastern Aleppo, is that no single

0:29:490:29:57

party has at any moment put the

protection of children at the core

0:29:570:30:03

of their action. If we want to

prevent bloodshed, further bloodshed

0:30:030:30:10

of children, if we want to prevent

thousands of children being maimed

0:30:100:30:17

then we need to learn the lessons

and this time around for the

0:30:170:30:22

protection of children of the core

of everyone's attention and action.

0:30:220:30:30

Does that basically mean the people

there surrendering, yielding to the

0:30:310:30:35

Syrian government? Because often it

looks like they are going to, in the

0:30:350:30:38

end, lose and there will be a lot of

suffering in the meantime.

There is

0:30:380:30:45

an incredible suffering from

children's perspective. Again, we

0:30:450:30:50

have seen, within Eastern Ghouta,

over the last few months only, the

0:30:500:30:56

number of children suffering from

severe, acute malnutrition,

0:30:560:31:03

life-threatening malnutrition, the

numbers have been increased by ten

0:31:030:31:07

in a few months' time, probably one

of the best indicators to show, to

0:31:070:31:13

tell the world how dire the

situation of children is today. And

0:31:130:31:17

with a very limited means for the

international community, for the

0:31:170:31:24

national partners to provide the

assistance, the much-needed,

0:31:240:31:28

urgently needed assistance to the

children inside.

But is there an

0:31:280:31:33

option for them to surrender, and

deep down is that what you would

0:31:330:31:36

like them to do, just to stop the

continual suffering of these young

0:31:360:31:41

people? Because they are probably

not... What is the point in hanging

0:31:410:31:47

on in there if the Syrian government

will prevail anyway?

From the

0:31:470:31:52

children's perspective, this war

needs to stop. Children have

0:31:520:31:58

suffered way too much already, and

this is a call for all parties who

0:31:580:32:06

are responsible for that endless

children's suffering. Thousands of

0:32:060:32:12

children being killed, hundreds of

thousands being maimed, close to 3

0:32:120:32:21

million children, Syrian children,

not able to attend regularly school.

0:32:210:32:25

The levels of malnutrition, the

children preventing from being

0:32:250:32:33

children - this needs to stop, all

parties need to take their

0:32:330:32:39

responsibility. Anyone with

authority over the fighting parties

0:32:390:32:42

need to take their responsibility,

this cannot be accepted any longer.

0:32:420:32:51

Geert Cappelaere from Unicef, thanks

very much indeed, thanks.

0:32:510:32:55

Last night, we heard the eloquent

testimony of a Chippendale

0:32:550:32:58

male entertainer on the groping

and grabbing that he puts up with

0:32:580:33:00

from his mainly female audiences.

0:33:000:33:02

He enjoys his job and was relaxed

about most of it,

0:33:020:33:04

knowing exactly what to expect -

it's all part of the show.

0:33:040:33:07

But among men who are not

Chippendales,

0:33:070:33:09

but who do sell their looks,

there is often a simmering annoyance

0:33:090:33:12

with the unprofessional

sexualised conduct that they face.

0:33:120:33:14

Male models know it's all about

looking right for the part

0:33:140:33:18

but do not expect to get work

on the basis of their willingness

0:33:180:33:21

to satisfy casting agents' lust.

0:33:210:33:24

We've spoken to quite

a number of male models

0:33:240:33:26

and have collated

some of the experiences

0:33:260:33:28

they've told us about.

0:33:280:33:36

Some testimony from male models

there.

0:35:320:35:33

Some testimony from

male models there.

0:35:330:35:35

Reece Sanders has worked

internationally as a model.

0:35:350:35:37

He joins me now.

0:35:370:35:38

Good evening to you. Does everybody

have things like this, or is it a

0:35:380:35:44

minority experience?

I think people

have been made to feel uncomfortable

0:35:440:35:49

more than you'd think in certain

situations, but these tales are a

0:35:490:35:53

minority amongst especially male

models, which I can only speak on

0:35:530:35:57

behalf of.

What is the worst that

has happened to you? What sort of

0:35:570:36:01

things?

Lines crossed in the sense

of a stylist or someone, when

0:36:010:36:08

dressing you, has gone a bit too

far, attacking a shirt in, a bit too

0:36:080:36:15

handsy, it is noticeable but they

play it like it is nothing.

There is

0:36:150:36:19

this phrase, the front tag, what is

that?

That is when a stylist, it

0:36:190:36:27

doesn't have to be a stylist, anyone

who is dressing you at the time, is

0:36:270:36:35

tucking the shedding, they take

advantage of that.

What about

0:36:380:36:41

photographs of you, you are getting

changed, photographers are around,

0:36:410:36:48

the making of the campaign, there

are back up photographers? Is a lot

0:36:480:36:53

of that inappropriate?

I find the

worst thing is, during Fashion Week,

0:36:530:36:58

or when you are doing a show, for

example, if you are backstage, there

0:36:580:37:04

are a lot of photographers coming

and going, and they are all licensed

0:37:040:37:08

to be there, and you know, someone

wants to take a photograph of you in

0:37:080:37:12

your underwear and you are aware of

it, you are selling your image, and

0:37:120:37:16

if your image is your body, you

might be fine with that. But if they

0:37:160:37:20

are doing it without you knowing,

even if you are OK with it, are you

0:37:200:37:25

OK with having it done without your

knowledge? What kind of photo is it?

0:37:250:37:31

Where is it going?

What was

interesting, model two in that be

0:37:310:37:34

said there is a relationship with

the photographer, and it can be

0:37:340:37:39

quite a sexualised relationship, is

that actually part of the sort of

0:37:390:37:44

making the thing work, that there is

flirtation or something going on

0:37:440:37:49

with the photographer? Or can it be

fairly anonymous and professional?

0:37:490:37:54

We have heard stories from people,

and with so many eyes being on

0:37:540:37:58

fashion, at the end of the day,

there are thousands of models

0:37:580:38:01

working with thousands of

photographers all over the industry,

0:38:010:38:05

and people need to understand that

the industry is not one company. It

0:38:050:38:09

is thousands of companies making it

up. If somebody leaves a shoot at

0:38:090:38:13

the end of the day and tweet or

Instagram, anything on social media

0:38:130:38:17

about how well the

0:38:170:38:23

about how well the day has worked

with hundreds of photographers, and

0:38:240:38:26

I have stayed at their houses, their

families have made me breakfast in

0:38:260:38:28

the morning, we have had friendly

relationships. No lines have been

0:38:280:38:31

crossed, everything has been fine.

But when it does get crossed, so

0:38:310:38:35

many eyes are on the fashion

industry that these are the stories

0:38:350:38:39

that come to the surface, some rises

to the top, so we see the stories

0:38:390:38:43

about people.

But I am guessing that

you and the other people on the

0:38:430:38:52

fashion circuit, you all know who

are the ones who are creepy and who

0:38:520:38:56

are not. You are swapping stories

the whole time?

You do spend a lot

0:38:560:39:02

of time and castings, you can spend

hours waiting to see a client, and

0:39:020:39:06

you swap stories with other models,

someone who has been doing it for

0:39:060:39:13

months or years, and we do hear

about certain names of people and

0:39:130:39:18

things come to light in the

mainstream media as well, people

0:39:180:39:21

that are doing this. So these are

people we try to avoid any way, and

0:39:210:39:25

when you fear about these, from my

personal experience, your agency

0:39:250:39:30

will do anything to not put you with

these.

They will try and protect

0:39:300:39:33

you.

You can go into your agencies.

That is nice.

For myself, I have

0:39:330:39:41

found that.

What is striking, you

were saying before, you are 25, now

0:39:410:39:47

getting to be considered quite late

career.

Correct, yeah.

What are the

0:39:470:39:53

age of your average model?

It

depends, for Fashion Week, they like

0:39:530:39:58

a younger looking guy, so 16-19.

Teenagers, who are really not going

0:39:580:40:05

to be very experienced and how to

handle all these situations.

0:40:050:40:09

Exactly, so when I have been in

these positions where the front tuck

0:40:090:40:12

has gone too far, and I have not

said anything because maybe I have

0:40:120:40:17

not thought about it that way, but I

should have said something at the

0:40:170:40:20

time. There is a lot of young kids

coming through, and I feel that we

0:40:200:40:25

need to make and safe. I'm not

saying it is extremely seedy, this

0:40:250:40:29

is a minority of people, but if we

can eradicate them and make it safer

0:40:290:40:33

for the next generation of models,

that we be the dream, really.

Thanks

0:40:330:40:37

very much.

0:40:370:40:41

That is all we have time for

tonight. A very good night.

0:40:410:40:47

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