22/02/2018 Newsnight


22/02/2018

Unicef's deputy head quits. American schoolchildren v the gun lobby. Anti-depressant pills. Brexit.


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Transcript


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The scandal in the charity sector

claims its biggest scalp yet.

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Unicef's Justin Forsyth steps down.

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Quitting not because of past

mistakes but because, he says,

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he didn't want to damage

the organisation further.

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But is too late?

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We hear from a colleague

of his from Save the Children

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who thinks he got what he deserved.

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Thank you very much.

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I don't think I'll be

going up against them.

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I really think the NRA

wants to do what's right.

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President Trump calls for an age

restriction on buying guns -

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but will he still think

the same tomorrow?

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Students demand tighter gun laws,

the head of the National Rifle

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Association weighs in.

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If these so-called

European socialists take

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over the House and the

Senate and, God forbid, they get

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the White House again, our American

freedoms could be lost and our

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country will be changed for ever.

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Is it possible we are

under-medicating those with

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depression in this country?

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I didn't want to be mentally unwell

and I felt that it was a stigma

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to take the drugs and that

if I took the drugs it

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would confirm I was ill.

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We speak to the Royal College of GPS

and to a psychotherapist

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who believes in talk not pills.

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Good evening.

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world has stepped down

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from his job in a sector already

reeling from allegations

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of inappropriate sexual behaviour.

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Justin Forsyth - deputy

director of Unicef -

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resigned from his role tonight just

days after the BBC reported that

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while he was chief executive

at Save the Children he sent

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unsolicited texts to

female members of staff.

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He specified in a statement

that he was leaving Unicef

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"because of the danger of damaging

both Unicef and Save the Children

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and our wider cause" -

insisting he had already offered

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unreserved apologies to the women

involved at the time.

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Unicef is just the latest charity

to have found itself

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caught up in the scandal.

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This evening, the Haitian government

announced it would temporarily

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revoke Oxfam's right to operate

in the country after the charity

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confirmed several members

of staff had admitted

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to sexual misconduct there.

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How damaging is all this becoming

to the charity sector?

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Here's Chris Cook.

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Over the past few weeks we've had

revelations about Oxfam.

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Then, the management

of Save the Children.

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Brendan Cox, widow of Jo Cox,

has already conceded

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that his behaviour towards women

at that charity was inappropriate.

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And now, one of his former

colleagues has resigned

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from his current role at Unicef.

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Justin Forsyth, who ran

Save the Children, said

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in a statement today that:

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But Mr Forsyth's resignation follows

a major revelation by Radio 4's PM.

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The programme learned

that there were three separate

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complaints of him sending

inappropriate text messages

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and making comments about female

employees' appearance

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at Save the Children.

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Mr Forsyth's account

of his behaviour at the charity had

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always stated that there had been no

formal complaints and he'd

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apologised to those concerned.

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Mr Forsyth has been a central

figure in British aid over

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the past decade or so.

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You may remember this disastrous

moment as Gordon Brown was recorded

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discussing a member of the public

with an aide.

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That aide was Mr Forsyth,

who'd then been working

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on development for six years

in Downing Street.

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As the chief executive

of Save the Children,

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he became a major figure

in that field.

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Since leaving Save the Children

in 2016 he became the deputy

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executive director of Unicef

and the UN Assistant

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Secretary General.

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Those are the jobs he has now left.

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The ripples from the global

movement against harassment

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continue to spread.

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Earlier, I spoke to Bri O Kieff,

who worked at Save the Children

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between 2011 and 2013.

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She told me about her experience

of the working environment

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under Justin Forsyth.

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Justinc came in with a mandate

to lead and shake things

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up and make us more

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aggressive and that's what he did

but a side effect of that was also

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that certain toxic leadership

behaviours were tolerated.

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That included temper

tantrums, yelling,

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disrespectful behaviour,

being on call at all hours and no

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way for any upward accountability

or feedback to

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be brought through.

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Worse than any threat

to your job, should you

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question things, you would be

sidelined from some of the best

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projects.

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In this atmosphere,

a really toxic culture grew.

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I guess he is taking

responsibility for his

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actions now, isn't he?

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He resigned from Unicef

saying he doesn't want

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any more damage to the

sector or the industry,

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even though he says

he

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made his apologies

at Save the Children,

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dealt with through a proper

process many years ago.

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I do think that Justin has

done a better job of

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apologising unreservedly

for the incidents that he created

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but he hasn't taken responsibility

for the

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repercussions to the people

who were involved,

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which I don't think

have

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come to light, mostly because those

victims want to remain anonymous.

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But he hasn't taken any

responsibility for the culture he

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fostered at Save the Children.

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What was the impact,

do you think, on the

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charity and the sector

itself more widely?

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I love Save the Children,

I loved working there and I've been

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haunted for a long time

by this experience.

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One of the things that kept

many of us from speaking out

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earlier was a desire to protect

the organisation that we loved.

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There was no way for

us to speak publicly

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about the behaviour of Justin,

Brendan and others who have still

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not been named, without damaging

an organisation we love.

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We are in an atmosphere,

a political atmosphere,

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where many people want

to and are capitalising upon these

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these crises in order to push

an anti-immigrant,

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anti-global agenda and that is not

what I want to see happen.

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But I do want to see

reform in our sector, I

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want to see immoral

behaviours by powerful

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people being addressed

and

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this will improve the charities'

work over the long-term.

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You said others that

have not been named, you

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can't name them here,

but how many others

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are you thinking of that

were

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behaving in that way similar to that

when you worked there?

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There are probably

a handful within Save the

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Children and then there are other

charities who I believe need to take

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a good long look at themselves.

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Senior people

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have been treating other people.

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At the very top of the organisation?

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At the very top.

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Alongside, like with the Oxfam

scandal and Haiti, there

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are a lot of cases of

people on the ground

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level abusing the poorest

and

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most vulnerable, who are in

desperate need of services.

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These are apples and

oranges but they are

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still fruit and that you have people

serving the most vulnerable who need

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food and water and shelter

and they are being exploited.

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And then you have ambitious

young career people

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working in London

who are idealistic,

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but they also end up exploited

and

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all that is about power

and the patriarchy.

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When people put to you,

as I'm sure they do,

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that Justin Forsyth massively raised

donations coming in,

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that he was a force

for enormous good in

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the time he worked for

the

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charity, what is your response?

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What is challenging

about all of these issues

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is that people can be both

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good and bad all at once and I feel

similarly about Brendan.

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I loved working with him

for a long time, he

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was actually very professional

and courteous in the office.

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But it was an open secret

that he was up to no

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good outside of the office

and somehow we were all groomed into

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keeping this secret for him,

as the price we had to pay to do

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very good work around the world.

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I feel complicit in

that and that's one of

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the reasons I'm speaking out now.

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This may be used as a stick

by those who oppose

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the foreign aid budget, to

politically speak out now, to say,

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we told you so.

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And I would say that

for those critics, their own

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industries and causes close

to their hearts are not

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immune to these scandals.

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This is not a development sector

problem, it isn't an

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international aid problem,

it is a society problem.

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And they should be careful

as they move forward how

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viciously they attack these things

because we don't know what industry

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the Me Too movement

is going to hit next.

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And a whole generation of younger

female staff are growing up

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and feeling bolder and bolder and I

would count myself in those ranks

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and we aren't going to keep

quiet for much longer.

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I want to say that the work that

Save the Children and

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Oxfam does is vital,

it is often unpopular

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but it is desperately needed.

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While people may be taking advantage

of the crisis I hope that

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what comes out of the

process is sunlight that

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disinfects it and makes

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us better going forward.

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Thank you very much.

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Bri O Kieff there.

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Justin Forsyth said in his statement

tonight that he did not resign

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from Unicef because of the mistakes

he made at Save the Children.

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They were dealt

with through a proper

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process many years ago,

and he apologised

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unreservedly at the time.

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Save the Children said it had

commissioned "a root and branch

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review of the organisational

culture" at the charity "addressing

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any behavioural challenges

among senior leadership".

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President Trump has said the age

limit for buying all guns

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should be 21 years old.

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By tomorrow, that may have changed.

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Anyone looking for consistency

from America's commander-in-chief

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on one of the most critical issues

of the age may be short-changed.

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Last night, just before we came

on air, he declared schools

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could be safer if certain

teachers were armed.

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This morning, he'd

denied it in a tweet.

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By this evening it was

back on the cards -

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a great deterrent, he confirmed.

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For those American students

who demand change -

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showing a maturity and a commitment

to ending school mass murders that

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may put their elders to shame -

the mixed messages will offer

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nothing but frustration.

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The financial and electoral power

of many of America's

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legislators lies in the hands

of the National Rifle Association.

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Today their chief told

the Conservative conference the anti

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gun lobby were socialists,

intent on taking away

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American freedom.

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Our Father, who art in heaven,

hallowed be your name.

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He prayed, and then he listened.

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I was born into a world where

I never got to experience safety.

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And peace.

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And I don't understand

why I can still go

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in a store and buy a weapon of war.

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I'm from Stoneman Douglas high

school and I was there

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during the shooting

and

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I'm a survivor.

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This was a chance for

the president to show he got it,

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even if it required a crib sheet

to remind him what to say.

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We heard from a father

who lost his daughter

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in the Florida shooting and vowed

that America must change.

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We are here because my

daughter has no voice.

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She was murdered last week.

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You go to the airport

I can't get on a plane with

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but we leave

some animal to walk

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into a school and shoot our

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children.

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And from a girl who asked

for the conversation to become less

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polarised, more open

to thoughtful debate.

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Our world right now is stuck

on what they believe and they don't

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listen to what other people believe.

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And then, after an hour

or so of listening,

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the president spoke.

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This is what he said.

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It's called concealed

carry, where a teacher

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would have a concealed gun on them.

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They'd go for special training

and then they would be

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there and you would no longer

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have a gun free zone.

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It was the only line

anyone would quote.

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This morning it

transpired he hadn't said

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it at all, it was simply the fake

old media who got it wrong.

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Again.

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By tonight he decided maybe

he had said it anyway.

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Anyway, it was a jolly good idea...

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A great deterrent.

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The NRA agreed.

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No surprises there perhaps.

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Their chief, Wayne LaPierre,

put his finger on the real culprit,

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socialism.

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You should be anxious

and you should be frightened.

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If they seize power,

if these so-called

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European Socialists take over

the House and the Senate and God

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forbid, they get the White House

again, our

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American freedoms could be lost

and our country will be changed for

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ever.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you.

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And that, don't forget, is the voice

of financial power in America.

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They back the president

to the tune of $30 billion.

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They back the president

to the tune of $30 million.

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Does he have the appetite

to bite that hand?

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Joining me now, John R Lott, Jr,

president of the Crime

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Prevention Research Centre.

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Can I start by asking you what you

felt and heard from those students

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who were talking to Presidents Club

yesterday in the White House? Were

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you moved? -- talking to the

president yesterday.

Anybody would

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be moved, I guess, what's going to

happen, what's the impact of the

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different laws they in place? We had

people talking about background

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checks on private transfers, that's

been a number one thing people have

0:14:430:14:46

been asking for. But I can't think

of any attack this century that

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would have been stopped in anyway if

that kind of law had been in effect.

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You know, we want to do something, I

want to do something, but you want

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to do something that will actually

be relevant for these attacks. I

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think the president, who I think has

been consistent on this, about

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allowing staff or teachers to be

able to go and carried permit

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concealed handguns, is an era track

there.

So you would arm teachers in

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schools? If you wanted highly

skilled teachers, they would have to

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be top marksman and women as well as

teachers?

Right, well, you have 25

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states, to varying degrees,

currently allowing teachers or staff

0:15:350:15:39

to carry. You don't need very many,

just a few at each place. The

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alternative is to go and, let's say,

have an armed guard. The problem

0:15:450:15:49

with that is that having somebody in

uniform is like having somebody with

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a neon sign saying, shoot me first.

Better to have teachers, then, who

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have diddy marksman -- who have to

be marksman, a kind of SWAT team in

0:15:580:16:07

schools? Trump said that they would

get a bonus if they were armed. Is

0:16:070:16:11

that the route you would go down?

Look, in the last few years we've

0:16:110:16:15

had dozens of mass public shootings

which have been stopped by concealed

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carry permit holders. There isn't

much difference here. About 17

0:16:200:16:24

million Americans have permits to

carry concealed handguns. These

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individuals are extremely

law-abiding and even in the states,

0:16:310:16:38

you don't see any problems with it.

Would it just be teachers or would

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it be of other members of staff?

Would you even arm the children? It

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is a race to the bottom.

I think

that's a bit absurd, a two-year-old

0:16:490:16:54

being armed?

I'm asking you.

Well,

the point is, you'd have adults, OK,

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who got additional training. We have

25 states. If you can point to one

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problem, any significant problem...

I know of one accidental discharge

0:17:090:17:14

of a gun in all of the year is that

different states have had these

0:17:140:17:17

rules and no one was harmed. Beyond

that you find that these people are

0:17:170:17:22

very law-abiding, they haven't had

the problems. One thing that's

0:17:220:17:27

clear, not those places that have

allowed staff or teachers do have

0:17:270:17:32

permit concealed handguns have had

these kind of attacks. It's one

0:17:320:17:35

thing to put a sign in front of a

building saying, this is a gun free

0:17:350:17:40

zone, but another to say that

people...

I get that and I get that

0:17:400:17:46

the British culture has a different

take on this which is why we are

0:17:460:17:50

interested in your view, but

fundamentally, America loses what,

0:17:500:17:55

some 96 people on average every

month of every year to gun crime and

0:17:550:18:00

it doesn't seem worth considering

other issues, like background

0:18:000:18:06

checks, bump stock bands, like

proper mental health checks,

0:18:060:18:10

stopping selling guns to people

under 21? Why wouldn't you

0:18:100:18:18

incorporate any of those first?

Well, we have background checks,

0:18:180:18:24

there's a lot of academic literature

on that and unfortunately it doesn't

0:18:240:18:27

find that they be dues crime in

anyway. Think of it this way, how

0:18:270:18:33

easy is it for you to find illegal

drugs? -- that they reduce crime. In

0:18:330:18:40

college, 70% will say they can get

it. The same groups selling illegal

0:18:400:18:44

drugs are the same ones that sell

illegal guns. If I clicked my

0:18:440:18:48

fingers and caused all illegal drugs

to disappear from the United States

0:18:480:18:53

and all guns, how long would it be

before the drugs started coming back

0:18:530:18:58

in? 20 minutes. And how long before

those same gangs brought in guns to

0:18:580:19:04

protect their property?

Do you

believe that those calling for gun

0:19:040:19:07

safety laws were socialists,

politically motivated to reduce

0:19:070:19:12

American freedom?

Well, my big

concern about the gun control laws

0:19:120:19:18

is that they basically disarmed the

most honourable people in our

0:19:180:19:21

society. -- the most vulnerable

people. In Washington, DC, it costs

0:19:210:19:28

$125 to do a background check on the

private transfer of a gun. Who do

0:19:280:19:34

you price out of protecting

themselves and their families? Poor

0:19:340:19:37

minorities who live in high crime

areas.

Thank you very much, thank

0:19:370:19:43

you.

0:19:430:19:46

Are we too ideologically

resistant to the idea

0:19:460:19:48

of medicating depression?

0:19:480:19:49

A major scientific study -

the largest ever of its kind -

0:19:490:19:52

suggests that more than a million

extra people should be offered

0:19:520:19:54

antidepressants or other treatments,

and we should not be squeamish

0:19:540:19:57

about treating mental health

problems with drugs.

0:19:570:19:59

But they also recommended that

prozac - one of the best known, but,

0:19:590:20:02

they claim, least successful -

be swapped for others that

0:20:020:20:05

consistently perform better.

0:20:050:20:06

Katie Razzall has the story.

0:20:060:20:13

I don't know if you've ever been

driving and you just miss running

0:20:130:20:17

over a child and you feel completely

sick in your whole body.

0:20:170:20:21

It felt like that

but it never stopped.

0:20:210:20:26

Or, I don't know

if ever you have been

0:20:260:20:29

on a plane where there is an

emergency landing and you think you

0:20:290:20:32

are going to die.

0:20:320:20:34

It was like that, but

it just didn't stop.

0:20:340:20:40

I had this feeling I was

going to fall and the

0:20:400:20:42

pit was bottomless and I had

to hold on for dear life.

0:20:420:20:45

It's estimated mental

illness affects one

0:20:450:20:48

in four people in the UK each year.

0:20:480:20:50

For many of them, today's study

may be welcome news.

0:20:500:20:54

The drugs work for moderate

to acute depression is the

0:20:540:20:56

message.

0:20:560:20:57

Though some antidepressants are more

effective than others.

0:20:570:21:00

The number of prescriptions

for antidepressants in the UK has

0:21:000:21:04

doubled over the ten years

between 2006 and 2016.

0:21:040:21:08

There may be some overprescription,

those behind the

0:21:080:21:16

report accept, if the drugs

are given for mild depression.

0:21:160:21:18

But the bigger issue

for them is the 1

0:21:180:21:20

million people in the UK

who are missing out

0:21:200:21:22

on treatment entirely.

0:21:220:21:24

The big problem is that there

is a huge proportion of patients

0:21:240:21:26

who need the treatment

because they have

0:21:260:21:28

moderate to severe depression.

0:21:280:21:31

Yet they do not receive

an effective treatment.

0:21:310:21:33

When I say effective

treatment, I mean either

0:21:330:21:35

pharmacological antidepressants

or psychological.

0:21:350:21:37

And the other big problem

is untreated depression can

0:21:370:21:39

be fatal.

0:21:390:21:44

Rachael Kelly had her first

serious episode of anxiety

0:21:440:21:46

driven depression when

she was in her 30s.

0:21:460:21:51

I was suicidal and I was screaming

and saying I wanted to

0:21:510:21:54

die, and I felt so ill.

0:21:540:21:57

She spent a couple of

years on antidepressants

0:21:570:21:59

then, and again a few years later.

0:21:590:22:01

With such a stigma still around

mental illness and antidepressants,

0:22:010:22:03

she believes today's

report will help.

0:22:030:22:08

I think I felt a sense of relief,

because I think it is bad

0:22:080:22:13

enough feeling very depressed

and then to also worry whether the

0:22:130:22:15

treatment is the right treatment

or the wrong treatment.

0:22:150:22:19

I think my experience

is when you are severely

0:22:190:22:21

unwell, and if you are in

hospital and you are

0:22:210:22:24

suicidal, in a way,

the

0:22:240:22:28

whole debate is bonkers.

0:22:280:22:31

When you are that unwell,

you are going to try

0:22:310:22:34

and find drugs to get you

better.

0:22:340:22:35

The research shows that while more

than 90% of the world's

0:22:350:22:38

big pharmaceutical

companies were investing in

0:22:380:22:40

research in new drugs

for psychiatric conditions like

0:22:400:22:43

depression and schizophrenia back

in 2012, now only 27%

0:22:430:22:45

of them are doing so.

0:22:450:22:48

We need to innovate and find

new treatments to help people feel

0:22:480:22:51

better.

0:22:510:22:52

That is the big challenge

for the future.

0:22:520:22:55

Are you saying at the moment

the pharmaceutical

0:22:550:22:59

companies are not doing that?

0:22:590:23:01

No, because at the moment,

it is not cost-effective for them.

0:23:010:23:06

Some psychiatrists

believe the use of

0:23:060:23:10

antidepressants on a day-to-day

basis is already too high, so there

0:23:100:23:14

is some resistance to the suggestion

in today's report that more people

0:23:140:23:17

should be given the option of drugs.

0:23:170:23:19

Long-term use of antidepressants can

cause physical adverse effects,

0:23:190:23:23

including sexual impairment

and sometimes that can persist when

0:23:230:23:25

people stop taking medication.

0:23:250:23:27

They can cause

suicidal and sometimes

0:23:270:23:29

aggressive impulses in young

people, in particular.

0:23:290:23:36

They can cause foetal

abnormalities and they can cause

0:23:360:23:39

very prolonged and severe withdrawal

syndromes in some people when they

0:23:390:23:41

try and stop them.

0:23:410:23:43

And the mental impact

of long-term treatment, I

0:23:430:23:48

also think, is significant, because

they give people the message that

0:23:480:23:51

they need treatment

and that they are not able

0:23:510:23:53

to manage their problems themselves.

0:23:530:23:54

It was a stigma to take the drugs.

0:23:540:23:56

When Rachael Kelly was ill,

antidepressants were

0:23:560:23:58

the answer.

0:23:580:24:01

But she says ideally drugs

would be used only in the

0:24:010:24:03

short-term and they are not

the only solution.

0:24:030:24:10

Talking therapy, mindfulness, diet,

and even Sammy the dog

0:24:100:24:13

have all played a part

in her recovery.

0:24:130:24:15

She has kept the card on which

a psychiatrist wrote a message

0:24:150:24:19

when she was at her bleakest.

0:24:190:24:20

It says, "you will get better."

0:24:200:24:21

And I used to hold

onto this card for dear

0:24:210:24:24

life.

0:24:240:24:25

I sit here as someone who is well

now, and I did get better.

0:24:250:24:28

And other people will get better.

0:24:280:24:31

So anybody who is watching

who is feeling a bit emotional,

0:24:310:24:33

anybody who is out there

who is suffering, my

0:24:330:24:36

heart goes out to you and I

would not wish it on anyone,

0:24:360:24:39

but I do believe firmly

that you can get better.

0:24:390:24:41

Joining us here James

Davies, psychotherapist.

0:24:410:24:46

And Dr Helen Stokes Lampart,

practising GP and chair

0:24:460:24:47

of Royal College of GPs.

0:24:470:24:51

Very nice to have you here. Helen,

when you saw the study, what was

0:24:510:24:56

your first reaction?

I don't think

any GP in the country will be

0:24:560:25:01

surprised to hear that in many cases

the drugs work. We don't ascribe

0:25:010:25:06

antidepressants thoughtlessly, we do

it with the best interests of the

0:25:060:25:09

patient in mind, we do it because

they benefit many patients but is

0:25:090:25:13

only one way of treating depression.

Will it liberate more GPs to hand

0:25:130:25:18

out more pills, will it make it

easier for people to ask for them?

0:25:180:25:22

It will make it easier for some

people to overcome the stigma of

0:25:220:25:26

asking, dictation. I don't think GPs

have been inhibited from having the

0:25:260:25:32

conversation about medication but we

need time to have open

0:25:320:25:36

conversations, we need the range of

treatment options available. This is

0:25:360:25:40

helpful, clarifying certain things.

There has been a lot of myth in the

0:25:400:25:44

media about this so it's good to

have a conversation.

That's a pretty

0:25:440:25:49

good step, isn't it, if it removes

the stigma and people can talk about

0:25:490:25:52

it.

Anything that helps people to

speak about their emotional

0:25:520:25:57

difficulties is positive but we are

deeply concerned about the study, in

0:25:570:26:01

particular because it tells us

nothing that we don't already know.

0:26:010:26:06

The research says that the

difference between antidepressants

0:26:060:26:09

and placebo is very minor, in fact

clinically insignificant. What that

0:26:090:26:17

means is that there's any register

in the difference in a person's

0:26:170:26:23

real-world experience. The

differences are remarkably minor.

0:26:230:26:27

When it suggests up to 1 million

more people would benefit from

0:26:270:26:30

having treatment, drugs of some

kind, do you agree?

I don't at all,

0:26:300:26:36

I think that's an overstatement.

Unlike placebos, antidepressants

0:26:360:26:39

have side effects in between 40-70%

of people, depending on the study

0:26:390:26:47

you consult and they generate

withdrawal effects for around two

0:26:470:26:51

thirds of patients. In a large

cohort of those persons, the

0:26:510:26:54

side-effects are severe -- those

withdrawal effects are severe and

0:26:540:27:00

may last for years. We're very

concerned that the study is being

0:27:000:27:05

spun in such a way as to wrongly

lead people to believe that these

0:27:050:27:08

drugs are more efficacious than they

are.

Do you believe that there is

0:27:080:27:14

under medication in this country?

They're absolutely as well as there

0:27:140:27:20

is some over medication. It is a

difficult area, for some people

0:27:200:27:24

tablets are not the right thing but

others are reluctant to come forward

0:27:240:27:28

when there may be benefit. I

recognised some of what James is

0:27:280:27:31

saying about the study.

And

withdrawal? This isn't the same kind

0:27:310:27:36

of addiction, it isn't Mike being

addicted to cocaine, it's a

0:27:360:27:41

different experience it must be done

slowly and gradually and in a

0:27:410:27:45

supported way. But it is hard, isn't

it?

For some people, yes.

When you

0:27:450:27:52

are going through this, do you

explain it? You may had it out for a

0:27:520:27:55

short period of time.

Generally you

don't hand them out for a short

0:27:550:28:00

period, they are designed to be

taken for a minimum of six months,

0:28:000:28:04

following benefits. If you benefit,

at least six months, they aren't

0:28:040:28:08

designed for short-term use.

0:28:080:28:13

Is this about saving money?

Encouragement to say a medication is

0:28:140:28:19

quicker than therapy until?

Money

plays a huge role and if you look at

0:28:190:28:24

the research it says most to

approach their GPs for help with

0:28:240:28:28

emotional problems would prefer

psychological therapy or talking

0:28:280:28:34

intervention. Unfortunately they end

up with an antidepressant in most

0:28:340:28:39

cases because provision for nondrug

alternatives is woefully low.

We

0:28:390:28:45

would agree on that, there is not

enough talking therapy on the NHS

0:28:450:28:49

and waiting times are a problem.

This research looked at people

0:28:490:28:55

taking drugs for eight weeks only.

The majority of people in the UK

0:28:550:29:01

take these medications for many

months and in many cases many years.

0:29:010:29:05

The relevance of this finding that

those patients is in question.

Thank

0:29:050:29:10

you very much.

But it is the biggest

study ever.

0:29:100:29:13

If you need details of organisations

which offer support with mental

0:29:130:29:16

health you can find them

at bbc.co.uk/actionline.

0:29:160:29:17

Or you can call for free,

at any tim,e to hear recorded

0:29:170:29:21

information on zero 8000 564 756.

0:29:210:29:26

If your day has been a tough one

think on this - you were not,

0:29:260:29:30

at least, stuck in an EU Exit

and Trade Subcommittee for nearly

0:29:300:29:33

11 hours in Chequers.

0:29:330:29:34

Unless, of course, you were one

of those and you've just switched

0:29:340:29:37

on Newsnight to find out

what actually happened

0:29:370:29:38

after you dozed off.

0:29:380:29:40

This is the meeting that hopes

to finally resolve whether the UK

0:29:400:29:42

will seek to retain close regulatory

alignment with the EU.

0:29:420:29:45

We're not expecting any details

from the PM before Thursday.

0:29:450:29:49

Mr Corbyn is hoping

to pip her to the post

0:29:490:29:52

with an announcement

of his own position

0:29:520:29:53

on Brexit next week.

0:29:530:29:56

Tonight Emily Thornberry told

LBC's Iain Dale that

0:29:560:29:59

Labour would replicate

the customs union post-Brexit.

0:29:590:30:01

He's here now with Times

columnist Matthew Parris,

0:30:010:30:04

and the director of the Centre

for Labour and Social

0:30:040:30:06

Studies Faiza Shaheen.

0:30:060:30:09

Welcome.

Tell us what you heard

today? Emily Thornberry came in to

0:30:090:30:20

do a phone in and the customs union

is the thing, we expect Jeremy

0:30:200:30:25

Corbyn to make an announcement on it

on Thursday. I thought I will not

0:30:250:30:29

ask what he will say because she

will not tell me so I just said,

0:30:290:30:34

your thinking is developing the

customs union, isn't it, Emily? She

0:30:340:30:39

said, absolutely it is and we don't

intend to stay in the customs union

0:30:390:30:45

but we will have something as near

as damn it to it which would mean we

0:30:450:30:49

would not be able to agree our own

trade agreement. She said Britain

0:30:490:30:56

would have a special role with the

EU in negotiating trade agreements

0:30:560:30:58

but by the EU would agree I do not

know. Is she going out on a limb? I

0:30:580:31:04

don't think so, I think this is what

Jeremy Corbyn will announce that

0:31:040:31:09

will be interesting because 65% of

Labour members voted to remain but

0:31:090:31:13

that is not the same for Labour

voters and I think there will be a

0:31:130:31:17

lot to say we have heard rhetoric

from Corbyn about respecting the

0:31:170:31:22

wishes of the British people,

staying in the customs union

0:31:220:31:27

effectively means partially staying

in the EU.

Laura Kuenssberg has said

0:31:270:31:34

that the UK, the Cabinet agreed that

the UK wants to stick to standards

0:31:340:31:39

on its own terms. What does that

sound like to you?

You are going to

0:31:390:31:46

ask me. What does that sound like?

We have heard so much language

0:31:460:31:50

created to cover up the fact our

government has not got a decision on

0:31:500:31:56

what they are doing and how they

will do it and I'm not sure -- I'm

0:31:560:32:00

sure I am not the only person

frustrated. We have business lobbies

0:32:000:32:07

coming up with their own plans. We

might have divergence, we have to

0:32:070:32:11

look at the Northern Ireland border.

There is no clarity. It is a

0:32:110:32:16

breakthrough of unity. This is what

Laura is hearing. Matthew, from the

0:32:160:32:21

snippets coming out, do you feel the

Cabinet can now say we are united?

0:32:210:32:27

No. They could not have because we

know that they are split among

0:32:270:32:34

themselves and have different

opinions. There is no way Philip

0:32:340:32:38

Hammond can look at Liam Fox in the

eye and say we are united. We have

0:32:380:32:43

to treat these early rumours with

caution. You know dreams you have

0:32:430:32:47

when you are about to take an exam

and you have not read the syllabus?

0:32:470:32:51

I think Mrs May probably has a

nightmare that she is about to

0:32:510:32:56

announce a Brexit plan and she has

not got one.

What do you think they

0:32:560:33:00

are doing, from lunch onwards? I

think it has just broken up now.

0:33:000:33:07

Repeat the phrase again Laura said,

they agreed what?

From what I

0:33:070:33:13

understand they have agreed... A

breakthrough of unity in the Cabinet

0:33:130:33:18

for now, according to one minister.

James Forsyth, the political editor

0:33:180:33:23

of the Spectator reports they have

agreed on divergences. Within the

0:33:230:33:30

Cabinet? ! Divergence from EU

regulations, as you well know!

0:33:300:33:37

Managed divergences. That would be

seen as a breakthrough for the Prime

0:33:370:33:41

Minister because she would've got

Philip Hammond and Amber Rudd and

0:33:410:33:46

David Lidington onside. I have my

doubts that is the case because

0:33:460:33:49

think Matthew is right, there is a

splitting Cabinet. The Brexiteers

0:33:490:33:55

slightly have the upper hand. I do

not think Liam Fox, Boris Johnson,

0:33:550:34:02

possibly David Davis, could live

with a situation where there was

0:34:020:34:05

going to be more or less full

regulatory alignment. They will be

0:34:050:34:11

alignment of things, in particular

industries, it is in our interests,

0:34:110:34:15

but we have to have the freedom not

to do that.

A source told Laura that

0:34:150:34:20

divergences as won. You are now

cheering, if this is right?

I do not

0:34:200:34:27

see the point of leaving if you are

just going to obey all the rules in

0:34:270:34:32

perpetuity without any say in how

they are adopted. It may be in some

0:34:320:34:38

industries we mirror EU regulations.

I do not say we have to be

0:34:380:34:42

completely divergent but we have to

judge a case-by-case.

If Jeremy

0:34:420:34:48

Corbyn, John McDonnell, going to

come out next week and say, we think

0:34:480:34:52

there is now a change of heart,

policy for labour, do you think that

0:34:520:34:57

is where we will get to?

What does

that mean for the Northern Ireland

0:34:570:35:03

border when you have divergences?

This has been the problem. We seem

0:35:030:35:06

to go it at the wrong way making it

more about politics rather than

0:35:060:35:11

thinking about what it means for

people and in particular the border.

0:35:110:35:15

What can you do there? We have this

conversation and you come back down

0:35:150:35:28

and save Northern Ireland and

Ireland.

I do not want to put words

0:35:280:35:31

in Matthew's mouth, but people on

the Remains side see it as an

0:35:310:35:33

insoluble problem. It is not, when

you have the Irish government who do

0:35:330:35:36

not want a border, the British

Government and EU do not want a

0:35:360:35:39

border.

Let Matthew put words into

his own mouth.

A bespoke customs

0:35:390:35:48

arrangement...

Lovely phrases. This

spoke customs arrangement, deep and

0:35:480:35:53

special partnership. They are words.

Will we get a hard or soft Brexit,

0:35:530:35:58

if what you have heard is true, it

will be hard. In that case, I think

0:35:580:36:04

there is a majority in the House of

Commons with all the Labour Party,

0:36:040:36:08

if they go for customs union, as

seems likely, and 50, 60 members of

0:36:080:36:14

the Conservative Party who have a

majority for blocking this.

You now

0:36:140:36:21

trust that Corbyn will go one away

with the support probably of the

0:36:210:36:27

SNP, the devolved nations, the lords

as well probably. Can a Theresa May

0:36:270:36:32

government survive that?

I do not

think so. There is no majority in

0:36:320:36:39

parliament for that outcome.

As a

remain conservative, how would you

0:36:390:36:44

vote if it came to an election? A

general election?

Yes. I could not

0:36:440:36:52

vote for Jeremy Corbyn as Prime

Minister. I would stay in the

0:36:520:36:56

Conservative Party so I could vote

against Boris Johnson and Jacob

0:36:560:37:00

Rees-Mogg becoming...

If it was more

report -- comportment to give your

0:37:000:37:07

remain vote to Jeremy Corbyn?

I

would be torn, I suppose loyalty to

0:37:070:37:12

the old tribe would prevail but

there will be millions for whom it

0:37:120:37:17

worked.

People make speeches and

then sort of run away, they bottle

0:37:170:37:21

it and we do not hear anyone

clarifying or changing position. Do

0:37:210:37:26

you think next week is the week we

will hear a defined new Labour

0:37:260:37:32

position in your heart?

Things are

moving and we are coming to a point

0:37:320:37:37

where people are frustrated and

saying we are getting to the one

0:37:370:37:41

years since we triggered Brexit, how

can we not have a plan? Business is

0:37:410:37:47

rightly saying we cannot go on like

this. We hear from workers, in work

0:37:470:37:54

spaces the investment is not being

made, employers holding back in

0:37:540:37:58

terms of wages. We have to hit the

point where Labour themselves, there

0:37:580:38:03

is pressure for them to come up with

a solid plan. I think it has to

0:38:030:38:08

happen now and if it does not

happen, the repercussions for

0:38:080:38:15

people'slives in this insecure

environment, we also found a

0:38:150:38:18

majority that worry that the economy

is a threat to their employment

0:38:180:38:23

because they do not know what is

happening. Our politicians have not

0:38:230:38:27

done their job and they need to roll

out plans and say what they are

0:38:270:38:32

going to do, especially the

government in power.

You are right

0:38:320:38:36

the government have to say more

about their plans. We expected it

0:38:360:38:40

three months ago and hopefully we

will get it next week. Another

0:38:400:38:45

development tonight, Anna Soubry has

put down an amendment to the trade

0:38:450:38:48

bill calling for a customs union.

There are not 60 Conservative

0:38:480:38:53

members of Parliament who would vote

for it, but there probably are a

0:38:530:38:59

dozen, 15, which in theory the

government could be defeated and

0:38:590:39:02

then you would go to a situation

where you have a vote of confidence

0:39:020:39:06

presumably. Theresa May cannot allow

that to go through because it

0:39:060:39:12

undermines her strategy. Assuming

there is a strategy. There could be

0:39:120:39:15

interesting times.

Does it help the

Conservatives and Brexiteers if

0:39:150:39:24

there is a more solid commitment

from Labour to the customs union?

It

0:39:240:39:28

is difficult. I think Labour are in

a cleft stick with their own

0:39:280:39:37

supporters and membership. You will

rightly say the Conservative Party

0:39:370:39:44

has it on this but Labour does too.

If there were a general election and

0:39:440:39:50

parliament voted to stay in the

customs union, a form of it, and

0:39:500:39:54

Theresa May thought she could not

carry on on that basis, I do not

0:39:540:39:58

know how the parties would go into

election. Is anybody cancelling

0:39:580:40:03

holidays? No, and I will not make

any more election predictions.

We

0:40:030:40:09

have conflated two plans, one for

the transition period and the other

0:40:090:40:15

after the transition period and it

is possible the Cabinet agreed there

0:40:150:40:19

will be diverges after the

transition period or staying

0:40:190:40:23

together during it.

I think that is

right. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is

0:40:230:40:29

now sniffing power?

The membership,

Labour membership support staying in

0:40:290:40:34

the single market but if we run the

election, what happened last year,

0:40:340:40:39

domestic issues matter and that is

where the Conservative Party has

0:40:390:40:43

failed massively and because of

Brexit they have kicked the can down

0:40:430:40:47

the road on issues and there have

been consultations after

0:40:470:40:52

consultation. If there were another

election, Labour could go hard and

0:40:520:40:56

it would help them on Brexit.

We

have run out. Thank you.

0:40:560:41:01

Evan's here tomorrow.

0:41:010:41:03

Till then, goodnight.

0:41:030:41:04

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