05/03/2018 Newsnight


05/03/2018

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

You are up to date now.

0:00:020:00:10

A Russian man who spied

for Britain falls critically

0:00:100:00:12

in a Salisbury shopping centre.

0:00:120:00:13

Was he exposed to

a lethal substance?

0:00:140:00:15

And was the Russian state involved?

0:00:150:00:17

Here's what Putin once said

about Russians who sell secrets.

0:00:170:00:23

TRANSLATION:

Traitors will kick

the bucket, trust me.

0:00:240:00:26

These people betrayed their friends,

their brothers in arms.

0:00:260:00:28

Whatever they got in exchange

for it, those 30 pieces

0:00:280:00:31

of silver they were given,

they will choke on them!

0:00:310:00:45

We know nothing yet,

but could this be foul play?

0:00:450:00:47

We've gathered the experts.

0:00:470:00:48

Here comes Bradley

Wiggins up to the line!

0:00:480:00:53

Is this what crossing

an ethical line looks like?

0:00:530:00:55

The first Briton to win the Tour de

France is accused of enhancing his

0:00:550:00:59

performance with medication.

0:00:590:01:00

As Bradley Wiggins denies

the charge, we hear from a former

0:01:000:01:03

Tour de France cyclist

who admits to doping.

0:01:040:01:05

Also tonight...

0:01:050:01:06

In Sweden, everyone's pay

is public information.

0:01:060:01:07

Hello!

0:01:070:01:08

Hello, ma'am, how can I help you?

0:01:080:01:10

Hi, I'm looking for some information

about these people, please.

0:01:100:01:12

Bjorn Ulvaeus.

0:01:120:01:13

Of course.

0:01:130:01:13

Stefan Edberg.

0:01:130:01:14

I could ask for anyone?

0:01:140:01:16

For anyone.

0:01:160:01:18

But has this solved

their Equal Pay problem?

0:01:180:01:22

It is a cultural thing in Sweden,

we never talk about money,

0:01:220:01:26

it is easier to talk about STDs!

0:01:260:01:32

Good evening.

0:01:360:01:41

When a man falls ill

in a shopping centre,

0:01:420:01:44

it doesn't normally lead the news.

0:01:440:01:46

When that man is revealed

as a Russian who spied for Britain -

0:01:460:01:49

and his condition is considered

critical - the whole thing becomes

0:01:490:01:52

a little harder to ignore.

0:01:520:01:56

Sergei Skripal was granted refuge

in Britain in a spy swap

0:01:560:01:59

between America and Russia

eight years ago.

0:01:590:02:07

Nothing much was heard from him

in that time, until yesterday,

0:02:070:02:10

when he and a woman in her thirties

were found slumped

0:02:100:02:13

on a bench in Salisbury.

0:02:130:02:14

Police have declared

a "major incident",

0:02:150:02:16

and believe they were exposed

to an unknown substance.

0:02:160:02:18

One which may yet prove untraceable.

0:02:190:02:20

If the spectre of Alexander

Litvinenko lingers on his shoulder,

0:02:200:02:23

we should caution against being too

hasty, assuming we know too much.

0:02:230:02:26

Clearly, there are

plenty of unknowns.

0:02:260:02:28

But there is much

we need to ask too.

0:02:280:02:30

We begin with our diplomatic

editor, Mark Urban.

0:02:300:02:32

Yesterday afternoon,

passers-by noticed two people -

0:02:320:02:34

apparently unconscious -

on a bench in Salisbury.

0:02:340:02:36

The area was investigated by people

in protective suits,

0:02:370:02:39

as suspicions built that the two

victims had been poisoned.

0:02:390:02:42

They were in Salisbury Hospital

tonight, described

0:02:420:02:44

as 'critically ill'.

0:02:440:02:49

We are unable to ascertain whether

or not a crime has taken place.

0:02:490:02:52

A major incident, however,

has been declared today

0:02:520:02:54

and a multi-agency response

has been coordinated.

0:02:550:03:01

The BBC established that the man

being treated is Sergei Skripal.

0:03:010:03:05

He was convicted by a court

in Moscow in 2006 of being a spy

0:03:050:03:09

for British intelligence.

0:03:090:03:12

He was sent from the court

to the Gulag, where he

0:03:120:03:15

languished for four years.

0:03:150:03:19

It was in 2010 that the arrest

of a network of Russian agents

0:03:190:03:22

in the United States provided

an opportunity for MI6

0:03:220:03:25

to repay its debt to Skripal.

0:03:250:03:28

The UK asked for his name to be

added to a list of prisoners the CIA

0:03:280:03:33

was putting together.

0:03:330:03:34

And in July of that year,

Skripal and three others were put

0:03:340:03:37

on a jet from Moscow to Vienna.

0:03:370:03:39

The ten accused by the US

of espionage - among

0:03:400:03:42

them, Anna Chapman -

were flown from America and,

0:03:420:03:45

in the best Cold War traditions,

the two parties of spies crossed

0:03:450:03:48

on the tarmac in Austria.

0:03:480:03:53

Asked about who might have betrayed

this American spy ring,

0:03:530:03:57

President Putin vented

his fury publicly.

0:03:570:04:04

TRANSLATION:

Traitors will kick

the bucket, trust me.

0:04:050:04:08

These people betrayed their friends,

their brothers in arms.

0:04:080:04:14

Whatever they got in exchange

for it, those 30 pieces

0:04:140:04:16

of silver they were given,

they will choke on them!

0:04:160:04:19

As for Skripal, he flew

from Vienna to Britain,

0:04:190:04:21

where he began a life in exile.

0:04:220:04:29

Police were today securing the house

in Salisbury where the former

0:04:300:04:32

Russian intelligence officer has

lived in recent years.

0:04:330:04:35

Mark is here now.

0:04:350:04:36

Give us a sense of who this man is.

0:04:360:04:41

People who have met him talk

about a tough ex-paratrooper,

0:04:410:04:44

special forces, very proud of that

who gravitated towards Russian

0:04:440:04:47

military intelligence.

0:04:470:04:48

If you believe the court case

that was heard against him back

0:04:480:04:52

in 2006, at some point in the late

1990s, he began working for MI6

0:04:520:04:55

at a time when it was very hard

to penetrate the GRU.

0:04:560:05:02

I talked to Western spies

at the time and they said

0:05:020:05:05

post-Soviet collapse,

this was the last element

0:05:050:05:07

of the Russian intelligence

community as it had become

0:05:070:05:09

that was really tight

and held together.

0:05:100:05:16

So the recruitment would have been

quite an achievement for MI6

0:05:160:05:19

at the time and as a colonel,

he moved on to the people who run

0:05:190:05:23

the panel of the GRU

and he was responsible for personnel

0:05:230:05:26

matters so he would have been

in a position to open up a complete

0:05:260:05:30

order of battle of the GRU

in Western embassies

0:05:300:05:32

throughout the early 2000s,

before being caught.

0:05:320:05:38

While he may not be a very top level

of British penetration,

0:05:380:05:42

he was a pretty senior agent

is pretty important is to Western

0:05:420:05:45

intelligence during those years.

0:05:450:05:47

We do not know what made him defect.

0:05:470:05:51

What was he doing here latterly?

0:05:510:05:55

You can imagine somebody helpful

to that degree to HMG will be looked

0:05:550:06:01

after and we know they put his name

forward when these Russian agents

0:06:010:06:07

were picked up in America

in 2010 and the Russians,

0:06:070:06:09

despite the fact they convicted him

for treason, agreed to send him back

0:06:090:06:13

on a plane to get their agents back.

0:06:130:06:17

He would have got an MI6 pension

and I understand from people

0:06:170:06:23

in the forces that he occasionally

gave lectures about the GRU.

0:06:230:06:29

And he also acted as a consultant

going to talk to other intelligence

0:06:290:06:35

services as part of his sort

of consultancy, almost.

0:06:350:06:37

With MI6 that he did

in return for this package.

0:06:370:06:41

Not unlike, in fact,

the type of work that Litvinenko did

0:06:410:06:44

in terms of his conversations

with the Spanish as a consultant

0:06:440:06:47

or whatever you want to call it.

0:06:470:06:49

Yet he is now lying critically ill

in a hospital in Salisbury,

0:06:490:06:52

found in a very public place.

0:06:520:06:54

What is your sense

of what has gone on?

0:06:540:07:00

He was a man without an enormous

number of connections to other

0:07:000:07:03

people, in Salisbury or beyond.

0:07:030:07:09

And he had a small nuclear family.

0:07:090:07:14

We know that his wife died in 2012

and she is buried in the UK.

0:07:140:07:19

His son died last year, very early,

but after an illness,

0:07:190:07:22

people I speak to say they did not

regard it as suspicious.

0:07:220:07:27

But he was clearly in a vulnerable

state, only one member

0:07:270:07:30

of the family surviving,

his daughter, and it seems to be

0:07:300:07:35

the case that somebody seeing him

last week came to help him out

0:07:350:07:39

perhaps at a difficult time

after several months

0:07:390:07:41

after the loss of his son.

0:07:410:07:44

We know that his son,

although he died in Russia

0:07:440:07:46

on a holiday there, was repatriated

to this country and he is

0:07:460:07:50

buried in this country.

0:07:500:07:54

So all kinds of possibilities that

somehow the repatriation of his son

0:07:540:07:59

or the visit of someone else coming

from Russia to see him may have been

0:07:590:08:03

a way that could have been used

to fix his location and try and find

0:08:030:08:07

out where he was.

0:08:070:08:08

These are purely hypotheses

because as you said at the very

0:08:080:08:11

beginning of the programme,

no foul play has been proven,

0:08:110:08:14

but if you are looking for how

he might have been found,

0:08:140:08:17

those are some of the things

you might be looking at.

0:08:170:08:20

Thank you.

0:08:200:08:21

Stay with us.

0:08:210:08:22

We asked the Russian Government

to come on to Newsnight -

0:08:220:08:25

they wouldn't, unfortunately.

0:08:250:08:25

But joining me now live

from Brussels is former

0:08:260:08:28

MI5 agent Annie Machon.

0:08:280:08:30

And here in the studio, I am joined

by Bill Browder, who calls himself

0:08:300:08:34

Putin's Enemy Number One,

and whose lawyer -

0:08:340:08:36

Sergei Magnitsky - was, he believed,

murdered by the Russian Government.

0:08:360:08:41

Nice of you both to join us.

0:08:410:08:43

Bill, you are right in front

of me, what is your sense

0:08:430:08:46

of what has gone on here?

0:08:460:08:49

We don't know the details yet,

but when a major enemy of Russia

0:08:490:08:52

suddenly becomes critically ill

from an unknown substance,

0:08:520:08:54

one has to assume the worst.

0:08:540:08:59

And one should start

with the worst assumption

0:08:590:09:01

and work our way back from that.

0:09:010:09:07

I would assume until proven

otherwise the assumption should be

0:09:070:09:09

that this man was poisoned,

with some type of substance

0:09:090:09:12

from what is known as

the KGB poison factory.

0:09:120:09:17

They have a scientific research unit

in Moscow, part of the FSB,

0:09:170:09:20

in which they come up with poison

to assassinate their enemies.

0:09:200:09:25

They have used those

before with Litvinenko.

0:09:250:09:29

There was another shocking death

connected to my case,

0:09:290:09:32

a man who dropped dead in Surrey

in 2012 after blowing the whistle

0:09:320:09:35

on a major Russian Government

corruption scheme.

0:09:350:09:38

People die on a regular basis

outside the country and so we should

0:09:380:09:41

assume for the moment,

until we know otherwise,

0:09:410:09:43

that he has been assassinated.

0:09:430:09:51

You would be surprised

if the Russian state in some shape

0:09:510:09:57

or form were not behind whatever has

happened this weekend?

0:09:570:10:01

We have no information,

but the assumption, based

0:10:010:10:03

on what we know right now,

it is that this was

0:10:030:10:06

an assassination attempt.

0:10:060:10:09

Annie Machon, is that going a step

too far or do you see

0:10:090:10:12

where Bill Browder is coming from?

0:10:130:10:14

I think we are rather jumping

the gun here, I have to say.

0:10:150:10:19

We do not know the name

of the woman who was with him,

0:10:190:10:22

we don't know what substances might

have been involved.

0:10:220:10:25

We don't know pretty much

anything around this case.

0:10:250:10:29

It has started to unfold

in the media and it was just two

0:10:290:10:33

people who appear to have taken

an overdose of something,

0:10:330:10:36

which has now been discredited,

or whatever, on the streets.

0:10:360:10:40

It has hit the headlines because it

turns out he is indeed a Russian

0:10:400:10:44

defector who is being protected

by MI6 in the UK after

0:10:440:10:47

the spice up in 2010.

0:10:470:10:54

So there are many

unknowns in this case.

0:10:540:10:56

-- after the spy swap in 2010.

0:10:560:11:02

It is inflammatory to throw around

accusations, particularly in this

0:11:020:11:05

era of Russiagate and Trump.

0:11:050:11:07

It is also understandable

that there was an immediate

0:11:070:11:09

decontamination exercise

around the case.

0:11:090:11:15

Once this person's name had been fed

into the system and once he had been

0:11:150:11:19

taken to hospital and the police

reported it, there would have been

0:11:190:11:22

a red flag and in the way

of the Litvinenko case,

0:11:220:11:25

it would be absolutely normal

for the police to contain this issue

0:11:250:11:28

and try and decontaminate in case

there was any potential similarity

0:11:290:11:31

to the Litvinenko case,

which was hideous, but we don't

0:11:320:11:34

know that yet.

0:11:340:11:37

You from a security,

intelligence background.

0:11:370:11:39

Explain what happens in a spy swap.

0:11:390:11:43

When these people are transferred

from one country to another,

0:11:430:11:46

what protection are they given?

0:11:460:11:49

He would have been on all the lists

presumably for MI6 and MI5?

0:11:490:11:54

Absolutely.

0:11:540:12:00

From what I have seen

in the reports, I don't know

0:12:000:12:03

from the inside,

0:12:030:12:03

from what I have seen,

this guy was a high value asset

0:12:030:12:07

for MI6 for at least ten years

and then he was caught

0:12:070:12:10

and prosecuted and he went to prison

in Russia in 2006 for identifying

0:12:100:12:13

the names of British agents

in Russia, which is the crown

0:12:140:12:17

jewels of intelligence.

0:12:170:12:17

So it was a very serious crime.

0:12:170:12:19

In the UK, we would also see that

as a very serious crime.

0:12:190:12:24

And then he was swapped in the 2010

spying ring case involving

0:12:240:12:28

Anna Chapman and other Russian

illegals swapped for four

0:12:290:12:37

suspects, convicts - in Russia.

0:12:370:12:39

So you are looking at a swap of ten

Russian illegals, allegedly,

0:12:390:12:42

for four convicted people in Russia,

so he must have been

0:12:420:12:45

pretty high-value.

0:12:450:12:47

Why would you assume

the state would intervene

0:12:470:12:49

at point, Bill Browder?

0:12:490:12:52

If this happened in

2008-2010, a decade ago,

0:12:520:12:54

why would this happen now?

0:12:540:12:58

What you have to understand

about Russia is, you have many

0:12:580:13:01

hundreds of thousands of people

who work in different branches

0:13:010:13:04

of the security services.

0:13:040:13:06

They are not motivated

people, they are not loyal

0:13:060:13:09

and necessarily honest people.

0:13:090:13:13

Unlike here and other countries,

where people contribute

0:13:130:13:20

their service out of patriotism,

they do so for other reasons.

0:13:200:13:23

They cannot assume anyone

is going to be loyal.

0:13:230:13:25

And so the only way that Putin can

assure loyalty is to absolutely

0:13:250:13:29

viciously and completely punish

disloyalty no matter

0:13:290:13:30

where and when and how.

0:13:310:13:40

And so he has to create an incentive

- a terrible incentive

0:13:400:13:45

so that

everybody else around says,

0:13:450:13:47

if I in any way via off the track,

0:13:470:13:49

terrible things will happen

in the way that it has done to him.

0:13:500:13:53

Does that make sense

to you, that this is Putin

0:13:530:13:56

reasserting a flexing muscles?

0:13:560:13:57

We don't know anything

about foul play at this point,

0:13:570:13:59

but as a way of operating

by the Russian President?

0:14:000:14:04

It would seem unlikely

in this particular case

0:14:040:14:06

because they would not have

handed him back to the West

0:14:070:14:10

if they saw him as being a threat.

0:14:100:14:14

But also, I find that slightly

bizarre, the statement

0:14:140:14:19

from your other guest,

in the sense that a lot of patriots

0:14:190:14:22

work for the intelligence agencies

in America and in the UK.

0:14:220:14:25

I was one of them,

that was my motivation.

0:14:250:14:27

And across the rest of the West.

0:14:270:14:29

But a lot of patriots also do

the same thing in Russia and to try

0:14:290:14:33

and make a distinction

between the motivation, I think,

0:14:330:14:36

is slightly disingenuous.

0:14:360:14:38

I don't really know...

0:14:380:14:42

I can't really say for sure who is

motivations are where but what I can

0:14:420:14:48

say for sure is that Putin,

and we saw this completely

0:14:480:14:54

and absolutely with Litvinenko,

the way Putin

0:14:540:14:55

operates is to make

examples out of people.

0:14:560:14:59

He does not have loyalty anywhere

in his own country, it is

0:14:590:15:04

completely full of disloyal people

who are profiting from different

0:15:040:15:11

enterprises, etc, and the way

he goes about creating loyalty

0:15:110:15:14

is by creating a very,

very severe punishment

0:15:140:15:22

for people who are disloyal,

and he said so, we just listened

0:15:220:15:25

to him on the television

saying that exact thing.

0:15:250:15:28

That if somebody betrays

their brothers in arms,

0:15:280:15:30

then terrible things

will happen to them,

0:15:300:15:32

there is no mystery about that.

0:15:320:15:33

Thank you both very

much for bringing us so

0:15:340:15:36

much this evening.

0:15:360:15:37

What does it mean to cross

an ethical line to enhance

0:15:370:15:40

sporting performance?

0:15:400:15:40

It's the charge being

laid at Bradley Wiggins

0:15:400:15:42

by a parliamentary committee

report - one that he and Team Sky

0:15:430:15:46

have strongly refuted.

0:15:460:15:47

At the report's centre

is the concept of

0:15:470:15:49

Therapeutic Use Exemptions -

taking usually banned

0:15:490:15:51

substances in exceptional

circumstances for medical need.

0:15:510:15:52

The committee said it believed

the system was open to abuse,

0:15:530:15:56

and was unable to say for sure

what a mysterious package

0:15:560:16:00

to Wiggins contained back in 2011.

0:16:000:16:02

Bradley Wiggins himself has

denied any drug was used

0:16:020:16:04

without medical need and,

in an interview this evening,

0:16:050:16:07

claimed that the allegations

were "malicious".

0:16:070:16:10

Perhaps the question it

throws up is this one -

0:16:100:16:13

some athletes will need

drugs for medication,

0:16:130:16:15

but who should decide

who and how much?

0:16:150:16:17

Here's Katie Razzall.

0:16:170:16:20

COMMENTATOR:

It's a winning ride

to win the Tour de France.

0:16:200:16:23

This is malicious,

this is someone trying to smear me.

0:16:230:16:25

Six years ago, Bradley Wiggins

won the Tour de France.

0:16:250:16:28

The effect it's had,

the widespread effect

0:16:280:16:30

on the family is just horrific.

0:16:300:16:35

Bowing to the crowd...

0:16:350:16:37

I don't know how I'm

going to pick up the pieces up.

0:16:370:16:40

Now, the way he won

is being called into question.

0:16:400:16:43

This is a man

fighting for his reputation.

0:16:430:16:45

It used to be so simple.

0:16:450:16:46

The tape is broken and so is

the record athletes have long

0:16:460:16:50

been dreaming about.

0:16:500:16:50

This sporting legend, we're told,

was sustained on pilchards.

0:16:510:16:53

Back then, Roger Bannister

reportedly thought

0:16:530:16:56

it was cheating to speak

to your coach on the day of a race.

0:16:560:17:00

His passing came just ahead of

a report from the Digital, Culture,

0:17:000:17:03

Media and Sport Select Committee,

which pulls no punches.

0:17:030:17:05

They had modern-day athletics

in the firing line too,

0:17:050:17:08

but when it comes to cycling,

the committee says the application

0:17:080:17:11

by Wiggins's Team Sky

for a therapeutic use exemption

0:17:110:17:14

for triamcinolone, a powerful

asthma drug with performance

0:17:140:17:18

enhancing qualities,

before three of his biggest races,

0:17:180:17:20

crossed the ethical line.

0:17:200:17:23

So with a drug like triamcinolone,

which is a very powerful drug,

0:17:230:17:27

it has very powerful beneficial

side-effects that give riders

0:17:270:17:29

and edge, we have taken

evidence to say, if you are...

0:17:290:17:32

Actually, you don't need

to take triamcinolone,

0:17:320:17:36

there are other methods of treating

asthma more effectively,

0:17:360:17:38

which means you don't

have to take that drug.

0:17:380:17:40

That drug might only

normally be used for someone

0:17:400:17:43

who is about to be hospitalised

because they're so sick.

0:17:430:17:46

If that's the case,

if someone is that ill,

0:17:460:17:48

why are they competing

in an elite performance event?

0:17:480:17:50

He's not cheating

because he's got a TUE.

0:17:510:17:53

You don't know the situation

of the particular athlete

0:17:530:17:55

needing to use it at that time.

0:17:550:17:57

It's certainly pushing

the boundaries of are they using

0:17:570:17:59

the system to improve performance

or are they using the system to make

0:18:000:18:03

sure the athlete's health

is in the right order?

0:18:030:18:05

Pilchards barely come into it.

0:18:060:18:07

These days, sporting success

is scientific and at

0:18:070:18:09

London Metropolitan University,

athletes use the latest technology

0:18:090:18:11

to optimise their performance.

0:18:110:18:14

While the committee report is clear

what it's alleging Team Sky did

0:18:140:18:18

with its TUEs is not

against the rules because

0:18:190:18:21

a therapeutic use exemption

is authorised by the authorities,

0:18:210:18:23

it does say the system

is open to abuse.

0:18:230:18:26

But where is the line to be drawn

when it comes to ethics

0:18:260:18:29

in professional sport,

and can we ever really

0:18:290:18:32

ensure there's a truly

level playing field?

0:18:320:18:34

Facilities like ours

are not unusual.

0:18:340:18:36

You can do heat training here,

you can do cold training,

0:18:360:18:40

you can do high-altitude training

where we can limit oxygen levels.

0:18:400:18:44

And you can argue that

those things are not universally

0:18:440:18:46

available because of the cost

associated with them.

0:18:460:18:50

And so, there are so many options

available to athletes to enhance

0:18:500:18:55

performance and because races

and competitions are won by very

0:18:550:19:01

small margins, then athletes

and those that support them

0:19:010:19:03

are looking for every

opportunity just to enhance

0:19:030:19:06

the performance of the athlete.

0:19:060:19:09

Is the system that regulates

sport fit for purpose?

0:19:090:19:14

The select committee wants

a change in the law,

0:19:140:19:19

so those who supply sportspeople

with performance enhancing

0:19:190:19:21

drugs go to prison.

0:19:210:19:22

They also want better medical

record-keeping by team doctors

0:19:220:19:24

and others and more scrutiny

of the data.

0:19:250:19:27

Others suggest we should follow

Australia and put the monitoring

0:19:270:19:29

of what medicines athletes

are provided with into the hands of

0:19:290:19:32

an independent body

0:19:330:19:34

and many argue

for a fundamental cultural change.

0:19:340:19:36

There is too much focus on winning.

0:19:360:19:38

We want to be a nation of winners,

we want to win, that is important

0:19:380:19:43

to everyone.

0:19:430:19:46

However, what is most important

is to win with integrity.

0:19:460:19:48

Sir Bradley Wiggins and Team Sky

0:19:480:19:52

deny they've ever acted

without integrity.

0:19:520:19:55

His former employer said today:

0:19:550:19:58

Not at any time during my career

did we cross the ethical line.

0:20:150:20:21

These allegations -

0:20:210:20:23

I mean, it's the worst

thing to be accused of,

0:20:230:20:25

but it's also the hardest thing

to prove you haven't done.

0:20:250:20:28

Because we're not dealing

in a legal system.

0:20:280:20:30

I'd have had more rights

if I'd murdered someone.

0:20:300:20:33

In those heady days

when he was feted and his services

0:20:330:20:37

to cycling earned him a knighthood,

0:20:370:20:42

surely this "living hell",

as Wiggins calls it now,

0:20:420:20:44

would have been hard to imagine.

0:20:440:20:46

Earlier, I spoke

to Michael Rasmussen.

0:20:460:20:48

He's a Danish professional cyclist

whose most notable victories include

0:20:480:20:51

winning four stages of

the Tour de France.

0:20:510:20:53

In 2013, he admitted to doping

throughout his career.

0:20:530:20:56

I began by asking him

whether today's select committee

0:20:560:20:58

report really was a

"smear campaign and witch hunt"

0:20:580:21:01

against Bradley Wiggins.

0:21:010:21:05

Well, it's not

all about Bradley Wiggins.

0:21:050:21:07

It's just as much

about track and field.

0:21:070:21:11

So this is not a report

about Bradley Wiggins.

0:21:110:21:14

Of course, him and Sky

plays a big part in it.

0:21:140:21:21

What do you make of a doctor,

the Team Sky doctor,

0:21:210:21:25

just refusing to give

evidence to Parliament?

0:21:250:21:29

Did that strike you as odd?

0:21:290:21:33

It certainly sounds a little hollow

0:21:330:21:36

and if they really wanted

to clear up this mess

0:21:370:21:41

and ease the understanding

for everybody,

0:21:410:21:42

that would be the

easiest thing to do.

0:21:430:21:45

But apparently, they seem

to have a hard time

0:21:450:21:48

keeping track of their records.

0:21:480:21:50

Do you understand the difference

between crossing an ethical line

0:21:500:21:53

and doing something

that was actually illegal?

0:21:530:21:58

There is, of course, a difference.

0:21:580:22:00

The problem for Team Sky

is that they have been

0:22:000:22:05

putting themselves into this

position by saying it out loud, that

0:22:050:22:11

they would not accept

any former dopers in the team.

0:22:110:22:15

If they had just acted

like everybody else

0:22:150:22:21

and not telling the whole world

that they would be whiter

0:22:210:22:25

or holier than the Pope,

0:22:250:22:27

then it would be a lot

easier for them now.

0:22:270:22:32

And do you think Sky the sponsor

is putting pressure now on the team

0:22:320:22:36

to clean it up?

0:22:360:22:37

I am sure they have been involved

in dealing with the media

0:22:370:22:40

strategy all along.

0:22:400:22:41

They have been backing

every decision so far.

0:22:410:22:45

Now, of course,

it's a little bit different.

0:22:450:22:48

Now, it's actually an official

committee that has come up

0:22:480:22:53

with an entire report about it

and have concluded that there has

0:22:530:22:58

been unethical behaviour

within Team Sky,

0:22:580:23:02

so it might put things

into a different perspective

0:23:020:23:08

for Sky, the sponsor.

0:23:080:23:09

What do you think should happen

to Dave Brailsford now?

0:23:090:23:12

Can he remain at Team Sky?

0:23:120:23:13

I think it would be

appropriate if he resigned.

0:23:130:23:16

Bradley Wiggins has

broken his silence now,

0:23:160:23:19

he's given an interview to the BBC.

0:23:200:23:21

Do you think he has given

us all the facts now?

0:23:210:23:25

The way that the TUEs were issued,

0:23:250:23:29

it does not correspond very well

what he wrote in his book,

0:23:290:23:32

that he never had any

injections besides vaccines.

0:23:320:23:36

And on top of that, it

looks very much like

0:23:360:23:39

something you would do

if you wanted to improve your

0:23:390:23:41

performance in the Tour de France.

0:23:410:23:43

You don't believe his reasoning

that it was for medical need?

0:23:430:23:47

In that case, it would be very

convenient to have asthma

0:23:470:23:52

and in that time of the year.

0:23:520:23:54

So you don't believe him?

0:23:540:23:58

I think there's more to it

than what he's saying.

0:23:590:24:01

And do you think that whatever

happens from now on,

0:24:010:24:04

his legacy is now over?

0:24:040:24:08

Well, the problem is

that he didn't break,

0:24:080:24:14

didn't break the rules

in the sporting perspective.

0:24:140:24:19

But he certainly crossed the line

from an ethical perspective.

0:24:190:24:23

Michael Rasmussen there.

0:24:230:24:25

Sir Bradley Wiggins said tonight

that he "100%" did not cheat

0:24:250:24:29

and that he is the victim

of an attempt to "smear" him.

0:24:290:24:33

Team Sky said it "strongly refutes"

the report's

0:24:330:24:36

"claim that medication has

been used by the team

0:24:360:24:38

to enhance performance."

0:24:380:24:42

We are going to be hearing a lot

more about pay transparency -

0:24:420:24:45

and not just here at the BBC.

0:24:450:24:47

UK companies will soon have

to publish their gender pay gaps -

0:24:470:24:50

the gap between the average pay

of men and women.

0:24:500:24:53

There are thousands still

to cough up their numbers.

0:24:530:24:55

Still, the data in so far shows that

74% of companies pay men,

0:24:550:24:59

on average, more than women.

0:24:590:25:00

But are we just tinkering

at the edges of what's

0:25:000:25:03

needed to address concerns

around gender pay?

0:25:030:25:05

And are there other

benefits to being more

0:25:050:25:07

open about what we earn?

0:25:070:25:09

Helen Thomas reports.

0:25:090:25:12

Like the icy waters

around Stockholm's archipelago,

0:25:210:25:25

openness is inherently Swedish.

0:25:250:25:28

The right to freely seek information

is written into the constitution.

0:25:280:25:33

It's known as

'offentlighetsprincipen' -

0:25:330:25:36

the public access principle.

0:25:360:25:41

It's about a month until

UK companies with over 250 people

0:25:410:25:44

had to have published

their gender pay gap.

0:25:440:25:47

That's the gap between the

average pay of men and women.

0:25:480:25:52

It's different from equal pay,

0:25:520:25:55

which is whether men and women

are paid the same

0:25:560:26:01

for doing the same or similar jobs,

0:26:010:26:03

but it is a step

towards pay transparency.

0:26:030:26:05

Here in Sweden, it's a bit easier.

0:26:050:26:08

You can request pay information

through trade unions

0:26:080:26:11

or equality watchdogs

0:26:110:26:14

and companies have to carry out

a full pay audit every year.

0:26:140:26:17

And there's another way

that anyone feeling aggrieved

0:26:170:26:21

or just curious can take a look

0:26:210:26:23

at what their neighbours

or colleagues might be earning.

0:26:230:26:26

Hi.

0:26:260:26:29

I'm looking for some information

about these people, please.

0:26:290:26:32

You have only name?

0:26:320:26:33

Yeah, I only have their names.

I think this might be her.

0:26:330:26:37

Let me see.

0:26:370:26:39

It's very interesting.

0:26:390:26:40

Bjorn Ulvaeus?

Of course.

0:26:400:26:42

This is his date of birth.

0:26:420:26:44

English.

0:26:440:26:46

Oh, thank you.

0:26:460:26:48

Stefan Edberg?

0:26:480:26:49

I could ask for anyone?

0:26:490:26:51

For anyone.

0:26:510:26:52

Dolph Lundgren.

0:26:520:26:54

Of course, just a moment please.

0:26:540:26:56

We have only one Dolph Lundgren.

0:26:560:26:58

Really?

0:26:580:26:59

Well, there is only

one Dolph Lundgren.

0:26:590:27:05

It feels a bit odd, actually.

0:27:050:27:08

Anyone can get a range

of tax and earnings information

0:27:080:27:11

about any Swedish individual.

0:27:110:27:14

So I've got the details

of someone I'm due to meet later,

0:27:140:27:18

a presenter off a leading

Swedish current affairs programme,

0:27:180:27:22

and a range of famous people

0:27:220:27:25

from Stefan Edberg

to Bjorn Ulvaeus -

0:27:250:27:27

that's Bjorn from

ABBA to you and me.

0:27:270:27:30

Sweden's gender pay

gap is about 12%,

0:27:300:27:32

below the European average.

0:27:320:27:34

The UK's is 18%.

0:27:350:27:37

But Sweden's equality minister

still sees a problem.

0:27:370:27:41

We know there is an undervaluation

0:27:410:27:44

of women's work compared to men's

work and that is really a disgrace.

0:27:440:27:50

We have to do more to put pressure

so that these differences disappear.

0:27:500:27:55

I think that if a country

or a government wants to change

0:27:550:27:59

gender inequalities,

they have to address that

0:28:000:28:06

because otherwise, you won't see,

talking about transparency,

0:28:060:28:09

that this really is

about a power shift.

0:28:090:28:15

So, transparency is very

important and has been for us

0:28:150:28:17

but you also have to talk

about gender inequalities.

0:28:170:28:21

Back home, only about one-sixth

of the companies required

0:28:210:28:24

to report their gender pay gap

have done so.

0:28:240:28:31

That leaves about 7,500 to go

before early April then.

0:28:310:28:35

It concerns the woman who secured

government support for pay gap

0:28:350:28:38

reporting in 2015.

0:28:380:28:41

I'm a bit disappointed

with the way the regulations,

0:28:410:28:44

the details of those

have been brought up,

0:28:440:28:46

because there aren't

any firm sanctions.

0:28:460:28:48

There's no fines

that can be imposed on companies.

0:28:480:28:50

There is a transparency mechanism,

so if firms are not compliant,

0:28:510:28:55

then effectively,

they can be named and shamed.

0:28:550:28:57

So what would you actually

like to see happen?

0:28:570:28:59

What more would you

like to see happen?

0:28:590:29:01

We absolutely need to look

at what more we can do to right this

0:29:020:29:05

injustice and that could be more

transparency, it could be people

0:29:050:29:08

being able to get more information

from their employer,

0:29:080:29:11

it could be more responsibilities

on the companies themselves to do

0:29:110:29:14

more digging into their own data

so they are able to justify any pay

0:29:140:29:17

differentials that do exist.

0:29:180:29:22

Everyone at GrantTree knows

what everyone else earns.

0:29:230:29:27

The first day

I got into the company,

0:29:280:29:30

I was just sent my pay information

and at first, I was a bit confused.

0:29:300:29:34

There was a lot of pay information

on one spreadsheet and I was just

0:29:340:29:38

scrolling down and all of the pay

information was on that spreadsheet!

0:29:380:29:41

I thought that was pretty startling,

but you get used to it.

0:29:420:29:45

The company helps other businesses

apply for government grants.

0:29:450:29:47

It uses a type of self-management

called Holacracy and part

0:29:470:29:50

of that is pay transparency.

0:29:500:29:55

You can go into this

spreadsheet at any time

0:29:550:29:57

and everybody is listed in here.

0:29:570:29:59

Here's me.

0:29:590:29:59

And you can see what

somebody's salary is

0:29:590:30:01

and also the reason for it.

0:30:020:30:09

If we look here, you can

see my salary is 51,500 from the

0:30:090:30:12

pay review that we just

finished earlier this year.

0:30:120:30:15

But this isn't about gender

pay or discrimination.

0:30:150:30:17

They just think it's a better

way of doing things.

0:30:170:30:22

By sharing information about pay

and actually by sharing information

0:30:220:30:25

about all of the financial health

of the company with all

0:30:250:30:28

of the people who work here,

we build a lot of trust

0:30:280:30:31

in that relationship.

0:30:310:30:32

And there's an awful lot of work

that suggests that actually,

0:30:320:30:35

the amount of trust that

you experience at work, how sort

0:30:350:30:38

of psychologically safe you feel,

really has an impact on the quality

0:30:380:30:41

of the work that you can do.

0:30:410:30:48

One argument in favour

of transparency is that actually,

0:30:480:30:51

we're all pretty bad at judging how

we are paid.

0:30:510:30:53

Research in the US by PayScale found

that nearly 90% of people

0:30:530:30:57

who thought they were underpaid

were actually paid in line

0:30:570:30:59

or above market rates.

0:30:590:31:04

Greater transparency can of course

cause some problems,

0:31:040:31:06

some awkward conversations,

but longer term, there

0:31:060:31:08

is evidence it can also

mean improved morale,

0:31:080:31:10

better productivity

and improved retention.

0:31:100:31:17

In Sweden, transparency seems

to be seen primarily

0:31:170:31:19

as a democratic ideal,

not a tool for pay.

0:31:190:31:24

Camilla Wagner is a consultant

on gender issues.

0:31:240:31:28

Do you think that people use

the tools they have here enough?

0:31:280:31:33

No, not enough.

0:31:330:31:36

I always advise people, if they are

going into a negotiation,

0:31:360:31:39

you should really get

all the information you can.

0:31:390:31:42

So just call the Swedish tax

agency and make sure that

0:31:430:31:45

you have the information on people

with similar jobs in that

0:31:460:31:48

organisation to see what they make.

0:31:490:31:53

So why do you think people don't use

the tax information?

0:31:530:31:56

Is it sort of cultural reticence?

0:31:560:31:58

Yes, it is a cultural thing in

Sweden, we never talk about money.

0:31:580:32:02

It's easier to talk about STDs

than it is to talk about how

0:32:020:32:05

much money you make,

which is really something we need

0:32:060:32:08

to get over if we want

to close the gender gap.

0:32:080:32:19

Some think this is all just

a storm over statistics,

0:32:190:32:22

that the pay gap can be explained

by seniority, types of work

0:32:220:32:25

or career choices, but even among

those who see a serious

0:32:250:32:28

and persistent problem,

there is debate.

0:32:280:32:31

Is it better to free up information

and allow individuals

0:32:320:32:34

to fight their own battles?

0:32:340:32:42

Or is government enforcement

needed to stop women

0:32:420:32:45

being left out in the cold?

0:32:450:32:46

He once described chatting

with the Queen as like 'catching

0:32:460:32:49

up with an old mate'.

0:32:490:32:50

Certainly, there was a life roundly

lived by the man who not only

0:32:500:32:54

invented wind-up radio,

but also worked as a TV stuntman

0:32:540:32:57

and aquatic showman.

0:32:570:33:02

The death of Trevor Baylis

was announced today, aged 80,

0:33:030:33:05

after a long illness.

0:33:050:33:06

He was interviewed here

on Newsnight in 2013.

0:33:060:33:13

We thought you might appreciate

the chance to listen again to one

0:33:130:33:16

of the foremost inventors

of our age.

0:33:160:33:18

My name's Trevor Baylis.

0:33:180:33:19

I call myself an inventor.

0:33:190:33:21

This workshop is where it all began.

0:33:210:33:23

This is the graveyard

of a thousand domestic

0:33:230:33:25

appliances, if you understand?

0:33:250:33:26

I'm known, I guess, for making

the clockwork radio.

0:33:260:33:28

That's how I wound it up.

0:33:280:33:30

It'll be interesting

to see if it still works.

0:33:300:33:32

RADIO CRACKLES.

0:33:320:33:35

Yeah.

0:33:350:33:37

I was watching a programme

about the spread of HIV/Aids

0:33:370:33:39

in Africa and they said the only way

that they could stop this dreadful

0:33:390:33:43

disease cutting its way

through all those places

0:33:430:33:45

was through radio and

music, communication,

0:33:450:33:47

but there was a problem.

0:33:470:33:48

Most people in Africa didn't have

electricity and the only other form

0:33:480:33:51

of electricity was in the form

of batteries, which were

0:33:520:33:54

horrendously expensive.

0:33:540:33:55

I'm then thinking

to myself, hang on...

0:33:550:33:57

All those years ago, I can see

myself with an old-fashioned

0:33:570:34:00

gramophone and I thought,

you know, you wind this thing up

0:34:000:34:03

and you can get all of that noise

by dragging a rusty nail around

0:34:030:34:06

a piece of old Bakelite,

as it were, and that produces

0:34:060:34:09

that volume of sound,

so there must be enough energy

0:34:090:34:12

in that spring to drive

a small dynamo which,

0:34:120:34:15

in turn, would drive a radio.

0:34:150:34:26

Trevor Baylis there.

0:34:260:34:30

Tomorrow morning, Public Health

England are launching a new strategy

0:34:300:34:33

to prevent childhood obesity.

0:34:330:34:34

We got the first peek

and the figures in its

0:34:340:34:37

report are shocking.

0:34:370:34:39

Children living in poor areas

are twice as likely to be obese

0:34:390:34:42

as their wealthier neighbours.

0:34:420:34:50

London has the highest rate

of childhood obesity of any peer

0:34:500:34:53

global city and the deprivation gap

has increased by over

0:34:530:34:58

50% in ten years.

0:34:580:35:02

So what's the best

way to tackle this?

0:35:020:35:05

This morning's Times quoted

Jamie Oliver questioning how

0:35:050:35:07

you change behaviour.

0:35:070:35:08

He says middle-class logic

won't affect behavioural

0:35:080:35:10

change in our low-income,

unhealthy eating families.

0:35:100:35:12

So, what's the best way to get

the healthy eating message

0:35:120:35:15

across, or will it only

ever sound patronising?

0:35:150:35:17

Jo Lewis is the Food

for Life Policy Director.

0:35:170:35:19

Dawn Foster is a

commentator and author.

0:35:190:35:21

Nice to have you both here.

0:35:210:35:23

Do you think campaigns like this

make any difference?

0:35:230:35:25

Food for life is not a campaign

telling people to do things

0:35:250:35:29

differently in their lives.

0:35:290:35:30

It is a campaign that dries to make

healthy food easy and normal

0:35:300:35:33

for families in all walks of life.

0:35:330:35:35

We work with schools, nurseries,

caterers and we make sure that

0:35:350:35:38

healthy option is normal and easy

and enjoyable for everyone.

0:35:380:35:42

So the key thing is, you are not

telling people what to do,

0:35:420:35:45

you are just taking away options

that don't work?

0:35:450:35:48

Well, that is right,

and making the good food,

0:35:480:35:50

the fresh and minimally processed

food easily available.

0:35:500:35:55

All the evidence shows childhood

obesity is not some big national

0:35:550:35:58

failure of will power.

0:35:580:35:59

And that we are, it is just a normal

response to an abnormal environment.

0:35:590:36:04

Look at the backdrop,

this is the unhealthy food

0:36:040:36:05

environment surrounding bars

and the choices people make,

0:36:050:36:08

they are time constraint

and heavily influenced

0:36:080:36:09

by what is on offer around them.

0:36:100:36:18

Dawn Foster, is that right,

if you just take away the bad stuff,

0:36:180:36:22

people will have to eat

the good stuff?

0:36:220:36:24

Is that a brutal but fair way

of making us eat more healthily?

0:36:240:36:32

I think it is very complex.

0:36:320:36:33

Often, people think that

if you take away certain

0:36:330:36:36

options in supermarkets,

it may change eating habits.

0:36:360:36:38

One of the big issues

is both time and money.

0:36:380:36:41

A lot of people don't have the time

to spend a lot of time cooking

0:36:410:36:45

and they don't have the knowledge

to help them.

0:36:450:36:47

I speak to a lot of families

and have visited homes in fuel

0:36:470:36:51

poverty and it is often cheaper

to to cook in a microwave and that

0:36:510:36:54

limits what you feed your children.

0:36:550:37:19

So you do not turn the other non-?

0:37:190:37:22

Yes, it costs a lot more money

and is very fuel intensive

0:37:220:37:25

and if you can use the microwave,

it is a lot cheaper and that means

0:37:250:37:29

it limits what you can

feed your children.

0:37:290:37:31

And when we look at the choices

available for a lot of people,

0:37:310:37:35

it is very limited and not

especially healthy.

0:37:350:37:37

Take the five day or what you should

be doing, the traffic lights,

0:37:370:37:40

do those have any effect or is this

a middle-class conscience salver?

0:37:400:37:44

I think a lot of people feel

bombarded by a lot of very

0:37:440:37:47

conflicting messages on health.

0:37:470:37:48

With five day, recently,

it moved up to eight, or ten,

0:37:480:37:51

and a lot of people felt

that was out of the realms

0:37:510:37:54

of possibility, very expensive,

and they disregard it.

0:37:540:37:57

We are often bombarded

with lots of conflicting issues

0:37:570:37:59

and what we needed more time

and more so people can invest.

0:37:590:38:00

More legislation?

0:38:010:38:01

I would like to see more legislation

so people get paid better

0:38:010:38:04

and we can beat poverty.

0:38:050:38:06

Then we can look

more at what we eat.

0:38:060:38:08

It is a very different thing

to saying we should get rid of buy

0:38:080:38:12

one get one free offers,

we should get rid of cheaper fast

0:38:120:38:15

food shops on every street corner.

0:38:150:38:17

Would you go as far as saying

legislation has to take

0:38:170:38:20

over because the public

will is not there?

0:38:200:38:22

Yes, the former Chief Executive

of Sainsbury's, when the childhood

0:38:220:38:25

obesity plan was published,

he said even the supermarkets

0:38:250:38:27

need a level playing

field and legislation.

0:38:270:38:29

It is very hard to move ahead

of the others in terms of getting

0:38:290:38:33

rid of junk food promotions.

0:38:330:38:34

We buy 40% of what we

eat on promotion, it

0:38:340:38:37

nearly always junk food.

0:38:370:38:38

So we need to see promotions

for healthy food and also I agree

0:38:380:38:42

with what Dawn said.

0:38:420:38:46

If they went, would you feel

patronised by that,

0:38:460:38:48

I can make my own choices

as to when we eat junk food,

0:38:480:38:52

or would you say you much prefer

having all the toys taken out

0:38:520:38:55

as they did with smoking

because it just levels at?

0:38:550:39:02

I think if we look at what food,

as Jo said, is heavily marketed

0:39:020:39:05

and make sure fresh fruit

and vegetables were marketed

0:39:060:39:08

in the same way and is cheap,

that would change eating habits.

0:39:080:39:11

At the moment, big bags of frozen

chips, they are very cheap

0:39:110:39:14

and potatoes, most --

expensive if they are loose

0:39:140:39:17

and changing the way supermarkets

operate is a good way of doing it

0:39:170:39:20

without making people feel

they are dictated to.

0:39:200:39:24

The bottom line is that

when you are time poor and finishing

0:39:240:39:28

one shift and going straight

to another shift, you don't

0:39:280:39:30

want to wait for another and to warm

up or you cannot afford the fuel,

0:39:300:39:34

inevitably, it is going to be

the cheapest and quickest

0:39:340:39:37

thing to put in the oven.

0:39:370:39:46

We all understand that,

I am a mother of two children

0:39:460:39:49

and I know what it is like to not

feel I have the money,

0:39:490:39:53

the time, the headspace.

0:39:530:39:54

If it is like that for me

from a middle-class background,

0:39:540:39:57

how much more challenging is it?

0:39:570:39:59

We have to get realistic

and sympathetic about what is

0:39:590:40:01

influencing eating habits

and the real choices people face,

0:40:010:40:04

we have to make it easy.

0:40:040:40:05

The best place to begin is one good

meal a day in schools and nurseries

0:40:060:40:10

and that is what we're trying to do

with Food for Life.

0:40:100:40:13

The evidence is if you get

the children cooking and growing

0:40:130:40:16

and understanding where food comes

from, it has a significant impact

0:40:160:40:19

on their appetite for fruit

and vegetables and it will set them

0:40:190:40:22

up for life.

0:40:220:40:24

Thank you both very much.

0:40:240:40:26

That's it for tonight.

0:40:260:40:27

We leave you with news

of a fresh outbreak of social

0:40:270:40:30

media outrage at the BBC,

over the endlessly controversial

0:40:300:40:32

series five, episode seven

of CBeebies children's programme

0:40:320:40:36

'Show Me Show Me.' On behalf

of the BBC, can we just say

0:40:360:40:40

to the haters out there,

we have no idea

0:40:400:40:42

what you're on about!

0:40:420:40:43

Goodnight.

0:40:430:40:43

Fluttering and dancing in the wind.

0:40:430:40:45

# Imagine, imagine, imagine,

you're a fluttering kite # Imagine,

0:40:450:40:48

imagine, imagine, you flutter

at great height # You zip and dip

0:40:480:40:51

and zip and dip and zip and flutter

by # You zip and dip,

0:40:510:40:55

you're dancing in the sky # Imagine,

imagine, imagine, you're

0:40:550:40:57

a fluttering kite #.

0:40:580:41:05

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS