15/03/2018 Newsnight

Russia's most famous dissident

tells me he believes Putin

himself has lost control

of the Russian state.

TRANSLATION:

Today,

in my opinion, this inner circle

within the criminal gang has learned

how to manipulate Putin

quite effectively.

And we've seen this

demonstrated a number of times.

Meanwhile, Russia's defence agency

accuses the government

here of intellectually impotency

and calls the defence

minister a vulgar old harpy.

They were responding to this:

Russia should go away -

it should shut up.

Jeremy Corbyn seems to have

been more cautious.

Was he right to be?

Or does he risk

isolating his own party?

Also tonight, seven years to the day

since the Syrian uprising began,

thousands flee Eastern Ghouta.

We speak to one who's remained.

And a post-Joy Luck Club Amy Tan

talks to Stephen Smith.

I had to find something

as a distraction but also I had

to find beauty in the world.

I had to be able to see it.

Good evening.

The Russians tend not

to mince their words.

Having accused the Defence Secretary

of intellectual impotence,

the Russian Ministry of Defence

described Great Britain

as "the headquarters for fake

scandal", and called Russia's

accusers "completely insignificant".

Presumably including

the Prime Minister herself.

Russia's Foreign Minister,

Sergei Lavrov, then called her

accusations crazy, and suggested

the British government

was probably keen to deflect

attention from its troubles

over Brexit.

May's European allies, however,

have rallied to the cause.

Tonight, we have an exclusive

interview with an oligarch in exodus

- once Russia's richest man,

and once a convict

in a Siberian gulag.

He sees things rather differently

to the government back home.

First to Mark Urban on the latest

from Salisbury and how

the West responds now.

What is your sense of how things are

hotting up diplomatically?

You have

the war of words you had some of the

quotes from, this remarkable

statement from the Foreign Minister,

Sergey Lavrov, that it is an attempt

to deflect from Brexit. You also

have the more formal business that

has been going on, the contact with

allies, issuing this statement today

from the UK, France, Germany and the

United States, pretty tough from the

so-called Quad, it read like it was

drafted from the British. Their

language, highly likely the Russians

did it, etc, but what we will see

emerging from this and we will have

further steps from Nato and possibly

at the European summit next week is

a feeling they have caught the

Russians between two fires, eye that

you did it or are you allowed

something you had to be stolen or

used by someone who should not have

had it. It is a violation of one of

the most important end of Cold War

treaties, the chemical weapons

Convention, and this is a big moment

in terms of that wider diplomacy as

well as trying to get to the bottom

of how the Skripals were poisoned.

What else have we learned about the

investigation itself?

There was a

meeting tonight with the police and

health authorities to talk to local

people who were concerned and more

came out in that. They revealed that

46 people had been to hospital

complaining of symptoms, all had

been checked but allowed to go home.

It is only those three, the Skripal

Bubba and Detective Sergeant Bailey

who are in hospital. I also worked

out, and they must be referring to

customers in the pub and in the

Zizzi restaurant, is that 131 people

may have been exposed to the nerve

agent when it was

agent when it was on the Skripals.

But we don't have much information

on their condition, they say

critical but stable, but I have been

told they are in a coma and are on

life support but are there still

signs of life in those two people?

And do we know anything more about

where the nerve agent could have

come from?

For some days now we have

been talking of the importance of

the car and if you trace things

backwards, they don't, for example,

talk about traces of the nerve agent

in the home. Some of these theories,

did the door to bring something from

Moscow, that opened up and

contaminated them, you would have

expected that in the home. The

police clearly feel the car is

critical. It was heavily

contaminated from even the tow truck

that took it away was contaminated.

The feeling is, could somebody had

got into it between the hours of 1pm

and 1:40pm, this was the police

appeal a couple of days ago. We

still don't know exactly where it

was, who could have had access to it

and depending on where it was, can

they get CCTV coverage that might

show someone getting access to it?

Thank you very much.

Last week, Theresa May pointed

the finger at Putin.

But what if Putin himself

is being controlled?

It was a theory put to me today

by Russia's most famous dissident.

Earlier, I sat down

with Michael Khodorkovsky,

at one time Russia's richest man

as the billionaire owner of Yukos

oil who spent ten years

in a Siberian gulag under Putin.

He admitted to me the atmosphere has

dramatically changed now

for Russians living in London.

And, in an extraordinary interview,

he alleged that Russia's president

is now surrounded by criminal gangs

who may now have more

power than Putin himself.

I began by asking if he thought

the Russian state was behind

the poisoning of Sergei Skripal.

Which do you think it is?

Just explain to me, do you think the

GRU now has more power potentially

than Putin?

So does Putin ultimately control

this gang or not?

What could the West do now to make

Putin changes actions? Is it

sanctions? Is it kicking people out,

boycotting the World Cup? Do any of

those stand a chance of having a

diplomatic impact if, as you say,

they are dealing with criminals?

So it is about losing face? So it is

about refusing him access or time on

the international stage at a G-7 or

G8 or a of leaders?

Let me ask you bluntly, you have

accused Putin of criminal behaviour,

do you not fear for your life here?

It has been said there are more

spies from Russia in London now that

at the height of the Cold War, do

you believe that?

What would you call them?

You have the elections in Russia on

Sunday, what should Russian people

do when it comes to voting? Do you

think the electorate control the

outcome?

What will make Putin feel he is

done?

This is extraordinary to hear. Your

painting Putin himself as a puppet

of terminal elements of a gang. --

criminal elements.

Michael Khodorkovsky, thank you very

much.

Is the extent of my Russian.

Did Jeremy Corbyn misread the mood

of his party in the Commons

yesterday when he refused to point

the finger at Russia?

Last night, a group of Labour

backbenchers said it unequivocally

accepts the Russian state's

culpability for the spy poisoning.

Overnight they were joined

by senior frontbenchers

who command the defence

and foreign affairs briefs.

Today, Corbyn clarified,

stressing his condemnation

of the attack and saying

the evidence pointed towards Russia.

But he reiterated the need not

to rush ahead of evidence

in what he refered to as the fevered

atmosphere of Westminster.

Is he right to go slowly?

Or is more cross-party solidarity

called for at a time when a foreign

agent appears to be targeting people

on British soil?

Here's David Grossman.

Does Labour have a Russia problem?

That, at least, is the worry

of a significant number

of Labour backbenchers.

That yesterday's Commons

performance from Jeremy Corbyn

was insufficiently robust,

too willing to criticise

the British government,

not prepared to lay the blame

squarely on Russia.

This is the early day motion then?

Yeah.

John Woodcock is a long-term Labour

critic of Mr Corbyn and he's getting

Labour MPs to sign a Commons motion

to signal support for

the government response.

What I think the public can be

reassured on is that the vast

majority of MPs from all sides

of the house back this approach

that the government has set out

and we will stand firm together

against the threat

that Russia poses.

Why do you think your leader has

a problem being as clear

as you would like him

to be, it appears?

I don't know and I'm sure

he will come on to Newsnight

to tell you why himself,

or maybe his spokesman will.

There is obviously, around Jeremy,

for many years, been people who have

had strong links to former

Soviet Russia and

the current regime.

It might seem strange that such

admiration of Russia from sections

of the British left should survive

the fall of communism.

Not so, says this historian.

I think you need to see

that their view for many years

was that because the Soviet Union

was socialist, as they were,

the Soviets were essentially

their allies against the capitalist

West, particularly America.

That was the view that

existed right the way

through until the fall of communism.

But that pervading dislike,

hatred even, of the capitalist West,

of America, of Nato,

has stayed with the British left.

And as it's stayed with the British

left, they've actually looked

to some of those nations like Russia

as potential allies.

So, although the Russian system has

actually has morphed

into mega capitalism,

or whatever you might

like to describe it,

in point of fact, they still see

Russia as a potential ally

against the number one enemy.

Which is?

Which is America.

Which is the capitalist West.

Which is Nato.

Good on you, Jeremy.

You're the only one

who's speaking sense.

Thanks, mate.

Thank you.

Jeremy Corbyn himself

was in Carlisle today.

He denies he's been

unclear or equivocal

on the Salisbury attack.

But he did today use a much

stronger form of words.

The evidence points towards Russia

on this, therefore,

the responsibility must be brought

by those that made the weapon,

those that brought the weapon

into the country and those that

used the weapon.

What I was asking was questions,

questions about the identity

of the weapon, questions

about the reference to the weapons

Convention, and also the support

of other allies in this.

Those are the questions

I was asking.

That's what oppositions

are there for.

Shadow Cabinet allies of Mr Corbyn

told me that it's absolutely not

the case that Labour is in any way

blind to the sinister character

of the Russian government.

I think it's important that people

take me at my word on this.

I am no friend of Mr Putin.

His human rights record,

his autocracy, his kleptocracy.

But nonetheless, we have learnt

in this country in recent years

the importance of complying

with international law.

And do you think Mr Corbyn may have,

in hindsight, have phrased himself

differently yesterday?

Do you think that might have helped?

I think that Jeremy Corbyn is

with me on this, and I am with him.

Getting professional advice

on how to clean up a mess?

It's not clear that a single member

of the public queueing for selfies

with Mr Corbyn today had any

concerns about his stance on Russia.

Among his MPs back at Westminster,

it is another story and one that may

yet have consequences.

That was David Grossman.

I am now joined by Ayesha Hazarika.

She is a writer, commentator

and broadcaster who has previously

been a special advisor to both

Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband.

Also joining us, Chris Williamson.

He's a cheerleader for the Corbyn

leadership who won back his

Derby North seat in 2017

after losing it at the 2015

general election.

He said his campaign in Derby North

was "a shining example of how Labour

can win broad support in marginal

constituencies whilst maintaining

socialist principles to its core".

A long introduction but it gives you

a bit of hinterland. I'm going to

start with you, Chris. Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have firmed up his response

today. I wonder if you think he

sensed he got the mood wrong in the

Commons yesterday.

No, the

Conservative backbenchers were

indulging in bellicose rhetoric that

was unhelpful and Jeremy was clear

and statesman-like in what he said.

Clearly, it looks like the evidence

points to Russia and he made that

clear. Before we leap into action we

need to make sure, it seems to me,

that we do get the facts right. We

know the kind of crony capitalism in

Russia and the kind of oligarch...

The difference is he wasn't

unequivocal and his front bench

were, we heard from Neil Griffiths

and Emily Thornberry who were in

stark contrast to him, very clear

that they should be aligned with the

government on this and they had no

hesitation...

Jeremy has been on the

right side of history for the last

35 years, on the right side of

history on Libya, Afghanistan and in

relation to Iraq.

Which side of

history is he on now? Is he on the

Russian side of history?

It's not

about being nice to Russia, it's

about taking a statesman-like

approach and making sure we get our

ducks in a row and get our facts

straight. It looks pretty clear that

this nerve agent came from Russia.

What isn't clear is whether the

Russian state was involved, or

indeed some Mafi McCallum Dynavolt.

The Soviet Union comprised a number

of different countries...

That's

exactly what the Prime Minister was

saying -- or indeed some

saying -- or indeed some Mafi --

Mafia faction.

All parties have

dissidents from time to time but

they are irrelevant and not in

keeping with the vast majority of

the British public and Labour Party

members.

His point was the

opposition ask questions and he is

the opposition and he did it in a

moderate tone.

I think he misjudged

the tone in the Commons and I think

he has sort of acknowledged that by

his clarifying article in the

Guardian today which I think is the

right thing to have done. Because

people were not completely clear

about what he was saying. And

actually, some very, very senior

members of the Shadow Cabinet who

are great supporters of Jeremy

Corbyn, have privately said to me,

they just wished that in that moment

he had been completely crystal clear

about the condemnation.

What was

holding him back do you think?

I

don't know. I think possibly, as

Chris alluded to, he wants to tread

cautiously. Make no mistake, there

is nothing ignoble about proceeding

with a cool head but nobody is

suggesting a sort of rushed to war

or anything. But in this

situation... I don't know if that's

entirely fair. But in this situation

it's a big moment. You have two

people who have had an attempted

assassination and a police officer

injured, imagine if the nerve agent

had gone off in the London Tube.

What did you want from?

It was a

real moment, he's made fantastic

progress on domestic issues but on

the international question come on

security which is a concern to a lot

of people, I wanted him to rise to

the location and send a message he

took this seriously and it wasn't a

time for party politics, it was a

time for the national interest.

The

perception David Grossman raised in

the film was that there was a grip

on the left who had this undying

affection for all things Russian

that seem not to have moved on from

Soviet Russia to Putin be oligarch,

the kleptocracy, the modern Russia

that we know now.

In relation to

judging the mood of the

parliament...

Just answer that one.

I will come onto that the Jeremy

judged the mood of the nation,

that's the important thing.

Parliament gets things wrong and

they got things wrong on Iraq and

Libya.

And on Syria, you could

argue.

I've debated with him, the

guy is obsessed and it is utter

nonsense. Jeremy and the left...

You

think he is obsessed with saying

that the left has an affection for

Russia? So there is no affection

amongst...

Jeremy, John MacDonald,

the Labour Party has been calling

for action against the oligarchy,

the dirty money in this country,

against money-laundering. We called

for a version of the Magnitsky Act.

If we are serious about dealing with

this kind of crony capitalism,

dealing with the Mafia state, why is

it this government voted down

attempts to bring in that

legislation? Why is it they are in

hock to Russian oligarchs? They are

accepting millions of pounds from

these characters.

There is a lot in

that and definitely starving the

cache is an important part of this.

We have been calling for that for a

long time.

We need to take a step

back and where I disagree with Chris

is this has come through to people,

I was speaking to people not in our

political bubble and they are

worried about this and there are now

potentially 14 other deaths that are

being investigated as having links

to the Kremlin. This is a very, very

serious situation. Shami Chakrabarti

is right. We are a party that is

internationalist in our approach, we

believe in human rights,

international law and processes and

you can't just have another country

going around assassinating people on

your soil without any consequences.

Is that still... This is one area

Jeremy Corbyn has properly stuck to

his arms and his guts and it's a

very different position to...

I wish

I had... And in some ways I admire

your moral certainty about Jeremy

being on the right side of

everything. These conflicts and

geopolitics is really difficult.

There aren't any glib right and

wrong easy solutions in all of this

and I think right now you have a

tiger by the tail and nobody knows

how to handle Putin. He is a thug

writ large across the world. Look at

Ukraine, him propping up Assad in

Syria, this isn't a person we want

to be associated with.

And

Venezuela.

As the opposition we need

to show responsibility and

solidarity for the national interest

and not just party interest.

That's

what Jeremy did and it's not just

about going along with the crowd.

I

think he missed the moment, the

initial moment.

I disagree.

Thank

you for joining us. Thousands of

civilians have fled the Syrian town

of Hammouriyeh and its surrounding

areas in the rebel enclave of

eastern Ghouta.

The Observatory for Human Rights -

a watchdog based in Britain -

called it the biggest exodus

of displaced people since the regime

launched an offensive

on the enclave a month ago.

Today marks seven years

since the uprising in Syria

began when activists -

once optimistic of change -

called for a Day of Rage.

Seven years that have transformed

and wrecked a country.

Seven years that have killed more

of its people than may

ever be fully counted.

Allahu akbar.

Allahu akbar.

Looking at the history of the war in

years.

Joining me now is Ahmad Khanshour,

a father and activist

based in Eastern Ghouta.

Thank you for joining us. You were

one of the original activists who

decided to take on that March seven

years ago. Cast your mind back and

tell us what you believe they would

achieve there.

Good evening, Emily.

Well, that video brought a lot of

memories to me and a lot of emotion.

In fact, it has been a tough seven

years. It was the toughest but

despite all the violence we still

have hope. We still keep faith and

personally I never believed more in

my right as a human being for

freedom and democracy. I surely

remember seven years ago I couldn't

do it, by the way on the 15th, I did

it on the 18th because I was away

from my city. Per day when I hugged

my first friend who was shot by

Bashar Al-Assad's security services.

That day I was determined that I

shall

shall rise up and fight for my

rights.

You and your family were

caught up after that in the sarin

attack of 2013.

Exactly. It has many

milestones in our journey towards

where we are right now. I live in

Eastern Ghouta. I have always loved

Eastern Ghouta, as I love my country

Syria, as you love your country,

Emily. We were caught in the middle

of the brutal siege since the

beginning of 2013. We have been

caught in the sarin attacks, which

killed over 1200 people. 1200

people, can you believe it, in the

21st-century, were killed because of

sarin gas in Syria? Me, myself, my

family, were among the people who

suffered, wounded because of that

attack. Many were lucky that they

died. Many milestones.

Did you think

that would be the end of the war?

Did you think that would be the

turning point?

Exactly, exactly. I

thought the first time I held

somebody who was shot by the Assad

regime I thought that's it, nobody

will allow this maniac to keep on

killing innocent people just because

they asked for some freedom. But

nobody even cared. When the siege

was very tight amongst us we had to

eat the grass is from the land and

the ground. I thought, that's it.

Many of the world leaders drew red

lines that if a -- Assad stepped on

them they would be changed and he

stepped on many of them and stepped

on many words and nobody did

anything.

Let me just ask you, many

have left Eastern Ghouta now. You

have chosen to remain. Why?

I will

remain. Do you remember your first

car, do you remember the first time

you redecorated your home? Why

should I leave it? Why should I put

myself in a situation that I have to

be killed under bombardment or leave

my country and never come back? I've

seen people that have left their

cities everywhere. They were

unfortunately in displacement and

many other cities. If I leave now I

know I will never come back. There

is too much love I have for this

country, for this city.

Ahmad

Khanshour, thank you for talking to

us.

No one who witnessed those first

pictures of the Grenfell fire can

forget watching how quickly those

flames took hold.

Today, investigators revealed that

fire doors tested from the tower

could only hold back flames for half

the time they were supposed to.

Experts took an undamaged door

from the block and discovered it

could withstand a blaze for merely

15 minutes - not the 30 promised.

Today the Housing Secretary,

Sajid Javid, confirmed

the Government would carry out

further tests but said

there was no evidence that this

was a systemic issue.

Chris Cook, who led

the investigation for Newsnight

into the cladding on Grenfell,

is here now to explain more.

Tell us what you make of the

significance of what they found

today.

It is a very small binding,

about one door they have taken from

Grenfell. They are testing other

doors of the same design. When you

put up a big building, you have to

install component of a certain

amount of fire resistant but the

problem with this one is that it was

sold as a 30 minute door and it is

only a 15 minute door and if more of

the doors that were similarly under

resistant it can explain why the

fire could move so quickly.

What

broader questions does it raise?

If

I were selling a new fire door I

would have to get the design mocked

up, take a prototype to the lab and

get it tested and make sure that

what I sold in the shops was the

same as the prototype I had tested.

This rates question about whether

the testing process and the

certification process of the blood

on the market is up to scratch in

England. -- of the goods on the

market.

Thank you.

The Chinese-American writer Amy Tan

has brought The Joy Luck Club

to millions of readers

around the world.

Now she's turned her hand

to a memoir, Where The Past Begins,

which tells the stories of the women

who inspired her fiction, including

her own mother and grandmother.

It makes for often

uncomfortable reading -

forced marriages, abandoned

children, and mental illness,

as well as her own experience

of sexual assault.

She spoke to Stephen Smith.

The stories of my

grandmother keep shifting.

She became a widow and then she was

forced to become a concubine.

The man got into the bed,

put a knife to her throat

and said, "I will kill

you if you do not submit."

Some say that he put a knife

to his own throat and said,

"I will kill myself

if you don't marry me."

She got the best room in that house.

She was the most powerful.

And this is rather odd

because she became the fourth

wife, the oldest wife.

In her memoir, Amy Tan is telling

the stories of the Chinese women

who have inspired her bestselling

novels, women like her own

grandmother and her mother.

Her first husband was an abusive man

and she tried to leave that marriage

for a very long time.

It was 1949 when she

decided to leave.

China was on the cusp of becoming

a Communist country and literally

on the last boat leaving Shanghai

to Hong Kong she was

able to find a ticket.

She was not able to take her

daughters so these three daughters

she had by the first marriage

were left behind.

That harrowing experience

inspired a storyline in one

of Tan's best-known books,

The Joy Luck Club,

which was adapted into a film.

Some people say, oh,

what if your mother had

been a happy person,

not a depressed person?

What if my father and

brother hadn't died?

I wouldn't want to have those

as training ground for becoming

a writer but I think that trauma

forces a person to question life,

to look at why these things happen

and continually try to piece

together a narrative that

explains life to oneself.

Amy Tan's mother remarried

in the States and had a second

family, including Amy herself.

But her mother's past

and her volatile emotions

were a feature of family life.

I came home one day and she had

a cleaver and she backed me

into the bedroom and against a wall.

And she had a crazy look

in her eye she said,

"I'm going to kill you and then John

- my little brother -

and then I'm going to kill myself."

I said, "Do it, just do it."

I mean we were all a little crazy.

And I remember that this

was going to be the end

of my life and it was so sad.

And then a voice came out of me that

said I want to live.

Amy Tan's father was a minister

and she says that as a girl

she suffered sexual abuse

at the hands of a man

from his church.

This man came to my house

to counsel me because I had been

caught reading Catcher

in the Rye by Salinger.

We were in my parents' bedroom

and he said that I was causing

more pain to my father,

who was dying of a brain tumour,

than the tumour was causing him.

And I began to cry.

And after a while he said,

"Don't cry", and he started

to tickle me and I was breathless

because it was so uncomfortable.

And he molested me and I came out

of that room a different girl.

That made me realise that we do have

to talk about these,

they are so common.

Every single woman I know

has gone through this.

Raped at age eight.

I was molested at age 15.

And these things are

with you for life.

When she's not writing,

Tan likes to draw.

A distraction and a solace,

she says, in times of political

uncertainty and animosity.

After the election I had to find

something as a distraction but also

I had to find beauty in the world.

I had to be able to see it

and really focus on it.

I spoke a lot about my fears.

These people in social media

would say things like,

if you don't like it,

go back to China.

You know, what right do you have

to express your opinion?

I didn't come to this page to hear

what you have to say.

And I thought, this is really funny,

this is my Facebook page.

If you don't like it,

you do have the right to leave.

Amy Tan speaking.

Well, that's all for this evening.

But before we go, there's

a case that, when Barack

and Michelle Obama did it in 2008,

it broke out from being simply

the greeting of rappers

and basketball players.

But we think historians will look

back upon today as the pivotal

moment at which the fist bump

went truly mainstream.

Good night.

HIP HOP MUSIC.