20/03/2018 Newsnight


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20/03/2018

With Evan Davis. The alleged conduit between Trump and the Kremlin, shared parental leave, plus is this a watershed moment for Facebook?


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Facebook faces the wrath

of regulators and customers

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in multiple countries.

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Its reputation has sunk,

along with its share price,

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and a business plan based on liberal

sharing of data may be under threat.

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Is the Cambridge Analytica

scandal a watershed moment

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in our relation with Facebook,

and other Silicon Valley giants?

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I don't know whether Cambridge

Analytica had a significant effect

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on the Trump election.

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I don't know whether they had

a significant effect on Brexit.

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I do know that the systems that have

been developed by Facebook give this

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capability and make this

something that is possible

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to happen in the future.

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We'll hear from Senator John

Kennedy, no relation,

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who thinks data is the new oil.

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Also tonight, John Sweeney dusts

down an old KGB handbook to find out

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why the Russians might have used

a London based professor

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as an alleged conduit

between Trump and the Kremlin.

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International conferences and

seminars are great for recruiting.

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Stuffed with clever academic

scientists and business people,

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they're the perfect place to,

quote, "Get information"

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and influence foreigners.

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And shared parental leave...

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Men are apparently,

generously still leaving

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the bigger share to women.

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But are fathers secretly just dying

to give up the office for the nappy?

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For me, it's really a family time,

quality time, you know.

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So, it's very good.

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I love it, actually.

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Yeah.

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We'll ask if men really

think it's so great,

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why aren't more doing it?

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Hello.

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The controversial political data

intelligence firm Cambridge

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Analytica has suspended its chief

executive.

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More on that soon.

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But Facebook is not having

a great week either.

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It's the biggest corporate crisis

since Volkswagen's diesel deceit.

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That inaugurated a significant

decline in diesel sales,

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does this mark the same for Facebook

or even other tech giants?

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In the US, the Federal Trade

Commission is reported

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to be investigating.

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Here, the Information Commissioner's

Office said it's applying

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for a warrant get access

to Cambridge Analytica; and told

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Facebook to drop its own audit

of the controversial political

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data intelligence firm.

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It was a sign that the authorities

here - as elsewhere -

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are not going to let Facebook act

as though this is a little local

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difficulty, that can be dealt

with via an in-house memo telling

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people to wash the coffee cups.

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Authorities across the West have

are shocked at the way Facebook let

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app developers harvest data,

and then break all the rules

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by passing it onto others.

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And not tell anyone

when they discovered

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rules had been broken.

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How should we describe Facebook's

attitude to the date of its users at

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the time Cambridge Analytica had

taken possession of so much of it?

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Permissive, certainly. But in fact

is the goal. App developers could

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make better apps could use on

Facebook if they could get the data.

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Kellas? Well, yes. At that time apps

didn't just hoover up the user 's

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data but could access the user 's

friends. That did stop in 2015. Is

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the fact we might have given consent

defence for Facebook?

I think

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legally it is possible we might have

given Facebook permission to do

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whatever they want with that data

but Facebook actually removed some

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of these access points around 2014

and Mark Zuckerberg went on stage

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and said people were surprised this

happened. I'm friends with you and

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now you're upset because an app

surprises you. It is kind of clear

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that the

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that the legal...

What's clear is

that the Cambridge Analytica affair

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has hit a nerve, igniting an

international indignation at the

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power of the company. One German

court found Facebook's default

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consent settings breached European

law. The company faces potential

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punishment and, crucially, a threat

to pieces of its business model.

So

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what's been happening up until now

is the lax control from Facebook has

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allowed the advertisers to really

focus their advertising, to really

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make it specific to users by

accessing the data that perhaps

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under a controlled environment they

wouldn't necessarily have access to.

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I think with the increased

regulation, we're going to see an

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ending or certainly a much stricter

control of that, which will impact

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the amount that advertisers are

going to be able to access

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information, and therefore the

amount they are going to be able to

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centre their advertising. That is

certainly going to make Facebook a

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little less attractive for

advertisers.

Let's be fair, there is

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no direct evidence as yet that

Cambridge Analytica's use of

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Facebook data actually had any very

big effect. Of course, Cambridge

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Analytica would love you to believe

it has magical powers of persuasion,

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as indeed most of its vocal critics

do, but does Chris Rogers yesterday

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we learned the Conservative Party

has spent four times more on

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Facebook than the Labour Party in

the run-up to last year's

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collection. The Conservatives spend

millions on the best political

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marketing research consultants but I

think it is fair to say, to put it

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charitably, its campaign was not

regarded as among the best in

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British election history. It was a

lesson in how the biggest brains

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don't always get what they want.

Certainly, if they are indeed these

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Svengali like super geniuses who can

make people believe things just by

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targeted Facebook advertising, then

it kind of raises this question, why

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haven't we seen that technique being

used by other people? Particularly

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by people who sell stuff online

audio brand rather than trying to

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market an election every four years.

How is the Amazon is not trying to

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do custom advertising to you in

order to sell you a dishwasher?

But

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the damage is done, a corner has

been turned, data is being taken

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more seriously, the company is being

taken is less trustworthy.

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I don't know whether Cambridge

Analytica had a significant affect

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on the Trump election if they had a

significant effect on Brexit. I do

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note that the systems that have been

developed by Facebook give this

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capability make this something that

is possible to happen in the future,

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and that is I think what is more

important. Not the specific event

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but just happened but what the

implications are for our democracy

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in the future, because the abilities

of these things will only get

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better. Big data analysis is getting

more refined. The amount of

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information there is getting

greater, so it means the likelihood

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of being able to affect things is

increasing.

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Mark Zuckerberg has been strangely

quiet on the whole affair. It's as

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though data was some obscure data

area of law even in 2015 and data

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was Facebook's business after all.

But it feels like the company is

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leaving its teen years now and being

expected to take responsibility like

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an adult.

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That is the Facebook side of it.

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Tonight, more revelations -

this time regarding the role

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Cambridge Analytica claims to have

played in Donald Trump's

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election as US President.

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Chris Cook is with me.

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Bring us up to date on developments.

We have to be clear, because of

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Channel 4 News's excellent

reporting, we know they had an

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undercover reporter talked to

various Cambridge Analytica

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executives who claimed to have had a

critical effect on the election of

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Donald Trump, to have the power to

spread anonymously. They also talked

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about, talked in a way that made

some people draw the collusion that

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-- conclusion that had been

collusion between the Trump campaign

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and a supposedly independent

election group, which is not allowed

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under US law. Cambridge Analytica

denies all these things that their

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own executive have said and that is

why they suspended their chief

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executive this evening.

Let's talk

about the British investigation,

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maybe not the one Facebook is most

terrified of, because the American

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side is probably a big deal for

them. The information Commissioner

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is on the case, how effective will

that be?

The thing to know about the

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information Commissioner is it is

not the world's most frightening

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regulator at all. Fundamentally as

two functions. It does data

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protection, which is why we are

talking about it tonight and Freedom

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of information. These are two things

that are both real hassles the

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government. So there is quite a

strong incentive for central

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government not to give it too much

money because if they do they know

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it will come straight for them.

Think of all the data that NHS and

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schools and local authorities hold,

as well as the hassle and hatred in

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Whitehall for Freedom of

information. There really is no game

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for them in giving it a lot of

money. So even where it has

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sufficient powers, and it has quite

good powers and data protection, it

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doesn't have the bandwidth or

capacity to really take on big cases

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and monthly it is a real scaredy-cat

when it comes to taking on big

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things. We will seek what it does.

Thank you.

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Earlier I spoke to

Senator John Kennedy.

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He is the Republican Senator

for Louisiana and serves

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on the Senate Judiciary committee -

a committee that Facebook officials

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will give evidence to tomorrow.

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I started by asking whether it was

Cambridge Analytica that delivered

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President Trump the election.

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Well, you can't quantify it.

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I mean, you can't really

say the President of

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the United States became President

of the United States or a senator

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became a senator because of

one particular factor.

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Campaigns are not like that.

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There's a lot going on.

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People have a multitude of reasons

for voting as they do.

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And I just don't

think that you can...

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I mean, I have had

consultants pitch me all

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the time in campaigns saying

you know, we have won this

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election for this candidate.

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We have won it for that candidate.

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And, you know, you smile politely,

but it doesn't work

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that way.

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There's no way to quantify

or evaluate what they are saying.

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Your question is can

they have an impact?

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Sure, they can have an impact.

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How measurable it is

is another issue.

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Hillary Clinton would say

it was such a fine election, so

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narrow, and impact means that they

changed the course of history.

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They got Donald Trump elected.

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And that is a big thing.

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I don't agree with that.

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I'm not prepared to say that.

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I don't think anybody can say that.

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Do I personally believe that

Cambridge Analytica elected Donald

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Trump through their activities?

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No.

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I don't.

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Do I believe that Russia influenced

the outcome of the election?

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Influenced, perhaps.

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Determined?

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That's a whole different story.

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OK, let's talk about Facebook,

which is obviously a much

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bigger company and a more

important global player than

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Cambridge Analytica.

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A lot of people are just

saying, look uninstall

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Facebook if you don't want your data

passed around like that, just get

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rid of it.

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The company has lost trust

and people should uninstall it.

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Do you think that is a piece

of consumer advice you would give?

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Well, certainly transparency

is something we need to talk about.

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But before we look for remedies,

we have to understand the problem.

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And here's the problem.

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Facebook is an

extraordinary company.

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But it is no longer a company.

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It is a country.

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It is huge.

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It is breathtakingly powerful.

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Data is the new oil.

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And Facebook's behaviour leaves

something to be desired.

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I mean, some of their

recent behaviour is

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getting into the

foothills of creepy.

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I don't want to see the

United States Congress just start

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regulating, I would prefer to have

first a frank and candid discussion

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with the social media CEOs

at the table with us,

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in front of God and country

and the American public.

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And anybody else wants to watch,

and let us talk frankly

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about these issues.

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We tried it once before.

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In the Judiciary Committee.

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Facebook and the other social media

companies sent their lawyers.

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I don't know what they

paid their lawyers.

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But they did their job because they

didn't say a damn thing.

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They dodged, they weaved,

they stalled, they re-stalled,

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but they would not confront

the issue.

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Sorry to interrupt you,

but tomorrow Facebook

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officials say they're going to brief

the Senate and house judiciary

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committees with the latest.

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Again, I don't expect

it is going to be

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Mark Zuckerberg who's

going to come talking to you.

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How are you going to make something

different next time so it isn't just

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again you listening to a bunch

of lawyers saying we can't

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answer that question?

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Well I don't have the authority to

make anybody come to the judiciary.

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But our chairman does.

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We have subpoena power.

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I would refer not to see

us get to that point.

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I don't even know if the chairman

is willing to have a hearing.

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I certainly hope he does.

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We have had one hearing,

we need to have another.

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And I would very respectfully

and politely but

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firmly, suggest to Mr Zuckerberg

that he needs to come to talk to us.

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And subpoena him if he doesn't

accept the invitation?

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We're not there yet.

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We're not even to

the subpoena stage.

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Let's give him the benefit

of the doubt and ask

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him to come politely.

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I mean, he is a smart

guy, obviously.

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He invented Facebook.

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My aim in all this is not

to trash Facebook.

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I think Facebook has

done wonderful things.

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It has brought a lot

of people together and

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helped spread democracy.

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It was critical in the Arab Spring

in terms of people being able to

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communicate with each other.

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In many ways it brings

us closer together.

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But also in other ways it

brings us further apart.

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Can I just ask one last one.

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You are talking about this

as a Facebook problem.

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Is that your view or do

you think this is a

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bigger, tech giant problem?

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I think it is bigger.

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I'm talking about Facebook

because the Cambridge

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Analytica issue had

to do with Facebook.

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But you can make the same argument

for Twitter, Google, the

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other social media companies.

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I mean, let me say it again.

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I'm proud of them,

they are American companies.

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But they're not American

companies, they're not even

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companies any more.

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They are countries.

0:15:250:15:28

They are breathtakingly powerful.

0:15:280:15:29

They know more about me than me.

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They know more about you than you.

0:15:310:15:35

And we need to talk about

the socio-, economic and cultural

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problems that their size presents.

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And the American people,

I don't know about

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the folks in the UK, but

the American people

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expect us to address

these issues and by God,

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I

plan on doing that.

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We can do it the hard

way or the easy way.

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Senator John Kennedy,

thanks very much.

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Thanks for talking to us.

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Facebook has not succeeded

in knocking Russia off the news.

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It is only 16 days since the nerve

gas attack on the Skripals,

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but today saw the 23 Russian embassy

staff leave the country.

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Spies, diplomats -

call them whatever you want.

0:16:140:16:18

Today, in front of the long lenses

of the gathered press,

0:16:180:16:21

the Russians and their families

climbed onto a bus, taken off

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to Stansted Airport,

and were basically booted out

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of the country and

taken back to Moscow.

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If they were hoping to creep out

the back door of the country

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without being noticed, they failed.

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As the Russian state owned

Ilyushin aircraft headed home,

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the British government said they had

no plans for further

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sanctions - for now.

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Mark Urban is with me.

0:16:420:16:48

The other development is the OPCW

have started the deliberations.

They

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are the international watchdog. They

are now in the UK, more of them

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coming and their director-general

said at least three weeks. They are

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going to verify the Porton Down

scientists diagnosis that this was a

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new generation Russian nerve agent.

Whether they are going to have the

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exact forensic fix on it as having

come from a Russian factory is a

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different matter. It may not resolve

the argument one way or the other.

0:17:280:17:34

These Russian diplomat left today.

Any more?

Well the National Security

0:17:340:17:42

Council meeting today, we thought

there might be a task force on going

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after Russian money and that kind of

thing but apparently not even that.

0:17:460:17:51

Maybe you get the sense that perhaps

we feel the diplomatic advantage is

0:17:510:17:57

with us. Today Donald Trump

congratulated President Putin on his

0:17:570:18:03

election victory. And you look at

these 23 and you see the British do

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not want to get into any further

tit-for-tat. I understand the 23 is

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not all of them. It was said in the

British statement that it was

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undeclared. So we're not sure of the

numbers but some appear to have

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stayed. You look at the expulsion of

the Brits from Moscow, I can tell

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you 23 is more than that of

intelligence people the Brits had in

0:18:360:18:39

Russia. So they do not want to get

into any further tit-for-tat and

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that also is a measure of how the

diplomatic advantage might not still

0:18:440:18:49

be with the UK in this.

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Now, I hesitated to call

the Russians that were sent home

0:18:540:18:56

today "spies", despite the fact

others have, not just

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because it is there is perhaps no

clear line that defines

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a spy at all.

0:19:040:19:05

Intelligence gathering is done

by many who are not living

0:19:050:19:07

under diplomatic cover.

0:19:070:19:10

And crucially, the Russian state has

long been known to make use

0:19:100:19:13

of people who aren't even Russians.

0:19:130:19:15

In the twilight zone

of spying and networking,

0:19:150:19:18

John Sweeney has been

looking at how this works,

0:19:180:19:20

focusing on one mysterious

professor, said to be

0:19:200:19:22

a London-based conduit

between President Trump

0:19:220:19:24

and the Russians.

0:19:240:19:32

Highgate Cemetery has always been

a place of intrigue for Russians.

0:19:360:19:42

The Tomb of Karl Marx stands

sentinel over those of other

0:19:420:19:45

socialists dignitaries.

0:19:450:19:50

And this is also the resting place

of former KGB officer

0:19:500:19:54

Alexander Litvinenko,

believed to have been

0:19:540:19:56

poisoned by Russian spies.

0:19:560:20:00

A reminder, as if one

were needed this week,

0:20:000:20:03

that Cold War espionage

is alive and well.

0:20:030:20:11

There's an old KGB handbook

which details the tricks Russian

0:20:120:20:14

intelligence got up to in the bad

old days of the Cold War.

0:20:140:20:18

The gossip is these techniques

are still very much in use.

0:20:180:20:23

Lessson one; when targeting

the enemy, don't use a Russian

0:20:230:20:25

if you can find someone from a third

country who will do your

0:20:250:20:29

dirty work for you.

0:20:290:20:34

This is a strange tale

of the connections between three

0:20:340:20:37

men; the first Maltese,

the second Russian,

0:20:370:20:39

the third German.

0:20:390:20:42

We begin with the links

between the Russian state

0:20:420:20:46

and the election campaign

of a certain American

0:20:460:20:48

reality TV star.

0:20:480:20:53

During the American election,

Trump advisors were offered e-mails

0:20:530:20:57

from inside Hillary Clinton's

campaign - e-mails

0:20:570:21:00

hacked by Russian spies.

0:21:000:21:04

The FBI has launched

a major investigation.

0:21:040:21:10

This is Trump advisor

George Papadopoulos.

0:21:100:21:12

He pleaded guilty to making false

statements about contacts he'd had

0:21:120:21:17

with the Russian government.

0:21:170:21:21

And Papadopoulos admitted to the FBI

that a mystery Maltese Professor

0:21:210:21:23

was the go-between between him

and the Russians.

0:21:230:21:27

The Russians will use third

country nationals as really

0:21:270:21:31

mostly access agents,

to use the proper term,

0:21:310:21:35

meaning they're out there spotting

and assessing for targets

0:21:350:21:37

for Russian intelligence.

0:21:370:21:38

Particularly people who might not

want to talk to a Russian,

0:21:380:21:41

would be put off by talking

to a Russian for security

0:21:410:21:44

or personal reasons.

0:21:440:21:45

Someone who's a third country

national can be a lot better

0:21:450:21:47

person to be the face

of Russian intelligence.

0:21:470:21:49

Papadopoulos admitted to the FBI

the professor told him

0:21:490:21:54

that the Russians possessed dirt

on Hillary Clinton in the form

0:21:540:21:57

of thousands of e-mails.

0:21:570:21:59

That he wanted to introduce

Papadopoulos to a contact

0:21:590:22:03

and that his contacts

were in the Russian Ministry

0:22:030:22:05

of Foreign Affairs.

0:22:050:22:11

The Maltese Professor

was this man, Joseph Mifsud.

0:22:110:22:14

He was known as a diplomat

but Professor Mifsud's career had

0:22:140:22:18

began as an academic

here in Valletta, at

0:22:180:22:20

the University of Malta.

0:22:200:22:23

He resigned in 2007 under

something of a cloud.

0:22:230:22:28

He then moved through a series

of academic institutions,

0:22:280:22:31

touting his expertise in diplomacy,

presenting as an ambassador,

0:22:310:22:36

but this is not true.

0:22:360:22:39

Maltese journalist Jurgen Balzan has

checked out the facts.

0:22:390:22:44

There's no evidence of him,

of Mifsud being an ambassador

0:22:440:22:47

or deployed in some Maltese foreign

ministry office abroad.

0:22:470:22:55

The man who never was an ambassador

moved to the London Academy

0:22:570:23:00

of Diplomacy in 2013; an obscure

outfit whose degrees were awarded

0:23:000:23:03

by the University of East Anglia

and the University of Stirling.

0:23:030:23:11

Here he is with a Russian

Ambassador, a real one, that is.

0:23:110:23:17

So why would a minor academic

working in British universities be

0:23:170:23:19

of interest to the Russians?

0:23:190:23:24

He is a very typical kind

of character in this world,

0:23:240:23:27

on the fringes of academia,

think-tankery and governments.

0:23:270:23:31

He looks nonthreatening,

he's a hanger on, he's

0:23:310:23:34

at all the parties.

0:23:340:23:36

He's a wannabe, not a real player.

0:23:360:23:38

In a strange way, that can actually

help the Russians because again,

0:23:380:23:41

the threat perception

of the Maltese,

0:23:410:23:49

-- drops considerably.

0:23:520:23:57

He is Maltese which is not

associated a lot with threats

0:23:570:24:00

of any kind, frankly,

0:24:000:24:01

he can get along in a lot of places.

0:24:010:24:03

Mifsud had a fiance based in Ukraine

according to BuzzFeed.

0:24:030:24:06

The woman says she hasn't seen

or heard of the professor

0:24:060:24:08

for months, but she's left

holding the baby.

0:24:080:24:10

Weeks ago she gave birth

to their daughter.

0:24:100:24:12

He got about a bit for business too.

0:24:120:24:14

We've tracked some of the movements

of our humble professor.

0:24:140:24:18

In London, he met Boris Johnson

and junior minister Tobias Ellwood.

0:24:180:24:25

At the University in Rome,

he worked with two former

0:24:250:24:27

Italian foreign ministers.

0:24:270:24:29

In Riyadh, he was at the think

tank run by former head

0:24:290:24:32

of Saudi intelligence,

Prince Turki Al-Faisal.

0:24:320:24:37

A source said he'd

regularly visited Moscow.

0:24:370:24:43

None of this, of course, is evidence

of him being a Russian asset.

0:24:430:24:51

But there's no denying

the benefits of networking.

0:24:510:24:54

Here's another nugget

from that old KGB handbook.

0:24:540:24:58

International conferences and

seminars are great for recruiting.

0:24:580:25:02

Stuffed with clever academics,

scientists and business people,

0:25:020:25:06

they are the perfect place to,

quote, get information.

0:25:060:25:10

And influence foreigners.

0:25:100:25:14

In 2016, the professor was in Moscow

for a Kremlin-backed

0:25:140:25:17

Valdai conference.

0:25:170:25:20

To his left is Ivan Timofeev,

who works at a think tank linked

0:25:200:25:23

to the Russian ministry

of foreign affairs.

0:25:230:25:26

Democracy is such

a political regime.

0:25:260:25:30

Which is most vulnerable in

comparison with every other kind...

0:25:300:25:37

The Washington Post says it is aware

of e-mails suggesting

0:25:370:25:41

Mifsud put the Trump team

in contact with Timofeev.

0:25:410:25:45

Also at the Valdai conference

we meet German-born Swiss-based

0:25:450:25:48

multimillionaire Dr Stephan Roh.

0:25:480:25:53

Stephan Roh, on the left,

is the third man.

0:25:530:25:57

He's a lawyer with close links

to Professor Mifsud.

0:25:570:26:00

Stephan and his Russian born

wife Olga have homes

0:26:000:26:02

in Switzerland, Monaco,

London, and Hong Kong.

0:26:020:26:10

And then there's this castle

in Scotland, and buying it made

0:26:110:26:14

Stephan and Olga the Baron

and Baroness of Inchdrewer.

0:26:140:26:22

In 2014 Stephan Roh became

a visiting lecturer

0:26:220:26:24

at the London Academy of Diplomacy.

0:26:240:26:27

He buys the private university

in Rome where Mifsud

0:26:270:26:29

is part of the management.

0:26:290:26:31

And Mifsud becomes a consultant

at Roh's legal firm.

0:26:310:26:38

In a way we always were in my family

very achievements oriented.

0:26:380:26:44

Here is Olga Roh, on the left,

in Fox's reality TV show,

0:26:440:26:47

Meet the Russians.

0:26:470:26:54

She's extraordinarily well

connected, running an upmarket dress

0:26:540:26:55

company in London's Mayfair.

0:26:550:26:59

Among her customers,

Britain's Prime Minister.

0:26:590:27:05

Here's Theresa May meeting

the Queen, in an Olga Roh coat.

0:27:050:27:09

Most intriguing are Stephan's

business interests,

0:27:090:27:12

which appear extensive.

0:27:120:27:14

Newsnight can reveal

the story of one.

0:27:140:27:20

In the autumn 2005 I received this

phone call from a Dr Stephan Roh

0:27:200:27:25

showing interest in the company

and explained very briefly

0:27:250:27:27

that he was involved or intended

to be involved with some technology

0:27:270:27:30

transfer from Russia to Europe.

0:27:300:27:35

And he would like to do

this through my company.

0:27:350:27:43

Dr John Harbottle is a British

nuclear scientist who ran

0:27:430:27:47

a nuclear consultancy,

Severnvale Nuclear Services Ltd.

0:27:470:27:50

He specialised in the effects

of radiation on fuel materials

0:27:500:27:54

in reactors in Britain,

France and the United States.

0:27:540:27:58

So what did Dr Roh want from him?

0:27:580:28:01

He explained that he would

like to acquire my company

0:28:010:28:07

but he wanted to retain my services

on the technical side

0:28:070:28:10

because he was a lawyer and had no

technical background at all.

0:28:100:28:13

Dr Roh bought the nuclear

consultancy, then invited

0:28:130:28:16

Dr Harbottle on an all expenses paid

trip to a conference, in Moscow.

0:28:160:28:22

But the nuclear scientist was alert

to the danger that visitors

0:28:220:28:25

to Moscow can be targeted,

or even honey-trapped, into

0:28:250:28:28

compromising situations.

0:28:280:28:34

I smelt a rat, you know.

0:28:340:28:35

It didn't sound as if it rang true.

0:28:350:28:40

And I decided that I wasn't

going to go to this meeting.

0:28:400:28:43

So Dr Harbottle declined to go.

0:28:430:28:44

Shortly afterwards, he was fired.

0:28:440:28:47

Under Dr Harbottle, the company's

turnover had been £42,000 a year.

0:28:470:28:53

Within three years,

Severnvale Nuclear was turning over

0:28:530:28:55

more than $43 million a year under

Stephan Roh, with

0:28:550:28:57

just two employees.

0:28:570:29:03

On the face of it, it could be

a legitimate business,

0:29:030:29:06

highly successful in a short

space of time.

0:29:060:29:10

However, my concerns are that it's

only got two employees,

0:29:100:29:13

neither of which are experts

in the field of a consultancy.

0:29:130:29:15

So it could be money-laundering.

0:29:150:29:17

Up from that, it could be a way

of obtaining nuclear capability

0:29:170:29:20

for the Russian energy sector

within Russia, it needs improvement.

0:29:200:29:23

Dr Roh didn't respond to repeated

attempts to contact him.

0:29:230:29:29

The case of Stephan Roh

and Severnvale Nuclear

0:29:290:29:32

and of Joseph Mifsud

and Team Hillary's e-mails raises

0:29:320:29:35

big questions about these types

of international characters

0:29:350:29:37

and their links

to the Russian state.

0:29:370:29:44

The essential tradecraft used

by Russian intelligence today

0:29:440:29:46

is very similar to that used

in the Cold War, indeed it's

0:29:460:29:49

overwhelmingly similar.

0:29:490:29:53

So you can draw lines from the late

KGB to the present day with a lot

0:29:530:29:58

of ease and accuracy.

0:29:580:29:59

Professor Mifsud too did not

respond to Newsnight's

0:29:590:30:05

attempts to contact him.

0:30:050:30:07

But has always denied

that he is a spy.

0:30:070:30:14

When approached by Italian

newspaper la Republica,

0:30:140:30:16

he said, "Secret agent?

0:30:160:30:17

I never got a penny

from the Russians.

0:30:170:30:19

My conscience is clean.

0:30:190:30:20

All I've done is to foster

relationships between official

0:30:200:30:22

and nonofficial sources."

0:30:220:30:29

Three years ago, the Government

introduced shared parental leave,

0:30:310:30:33

which gave couples the option

of splitting 50 weeks

0:30:330:30:35

of leave entitlement

between mother and father.

0:30:350:30:40

A charter for new dads to take more

responsibility for rearing baby.

0:30:400:30:43

But some old habits have persisted.

0:30:430:30:45

Take up of the shared leave

scheme is very low -

0:30:450:30:47

about 3% of eligible couples.

0:30:470:30:50

The vast majority of

couples are sticking

0:30:500:30:58

to the traditional leave system -

maternity, with a side of paternity.

0:30:590:31:02

The subject has been analysed

by the House of Commons Women

0:31:020:31:04

and Equalities Committee -

we'll discuss it shortly,

0:31:040:31:06

but we went to Luton to speak

to parents about how they feel

0:31:060:31:09

about their roles in parenting...

0:31:090:31:11

We are equal parents.

0:31:110:31:13

It shouldn't be the mother

being at home looking

0:31:130:31:15

after the homestead all the time.

0:31:150:31:18

Getting time off from work,

spending time with the kids

0:31:180:31:20

at Easter holidays etc,

etc, so any more time

0:31:200:31:23

with the kids is a better thing.

0:31:230:31:25

Two weeks - it's not enough.

0:31:250:31:28

A man has every right to spend

time with their child

0:31:280:31:30

as much as a woman does.

0:31:300:31:33

Two weeks, it's not enough.

0:31:330:31:34

You can't bond with

a baby in two weeks.

0:31:340:31:40

It means that we get a little bit

of a break, as well,

0:31:400:31:44

and for a dad to actually be able

to spend time with their child,

0:31:440:31:47

it's one of the most

amazing things there is.

0:31:470:31:49

It's a very precious

thing, actually.

0:31:490:31:52

So, as you can see, I've

brought my two children

0:31:520:31:55

and my foster child as well,

so we are having really

0:31:550:31:58

quality time over here.

0:31:580:32:04

I do know of families

where the father's had

0:32:040:32:06

to go back so quickly.

0:32:060:32:10

But even a week, two

weeks after the birth,

0:32:100:32:12

it's such a process for the woman

to go through, that they need time,

0:32:120:32:16

that time to physically recover

and have that support.

0:32:160:32:18

So for the dad to be able

to take some of that load

0:32:180:32:21

would mean a lot for them,

and improve rates of things

0:32:210:32:24

like postnatal depression.

0:32:240:32:28

I've got three kids myself,

so I got two weeks off, you know,

0:32:280:32:31

it wasn't much time at all.

0:32:310:32:35

Clearly times have definitely

changed, you know, women are no

0:32:350:32:37

longer at home any more,

they're working full-time jobs,

0:32:370:32:39

looking after kids.

0:32:390:32:40

Dads do the same thing,

so times have definitely changed.

0:32:400:32:46

With me here is director of the

think tank Demos Polly Mackenzie,

0:32:460:32:50

stay at home dad and blogger

John Adams, and Kate Andrews from

0:32:500:32:53

the Institute of Economic Affairs.

0:32:530:32:58

Very good evening to you all. John,

you are a stay at home dad. You

0:32:580:33:03

weren't there for paternity as such,

is that right?

Not for shared

0:33:030:33:07

parental leave. When my first

daughter was born I took a month off

0:33:070:33:10

work to stay home with my wife and I

was needed at home. She had a very

0:33:100:33:15

hard birth, I had to be there to

keep the family running. When my

0:33:150:33:18

wife gave birth the second time, the

birth was straightforward but she

0:33:180:33:23

was re-hospitalised afterwards, very

high blood pressure and again I had

0:33:230:33:25

to take a month off so I could be at

home and keep the family running.

0:33:250:33:29

How old are your children now?

Nine

and five.

What is your day? CHUCKLES

0:33:290:33:38

My day these days involves getting

up, getting the children ready,

0:33:380:33:41

doing the school run and then when

they are actually at school I do a

0:33:410:33:46

little bit of freelance, and a bit

of money, then back to school,

0:33:460:33:52

picked this keeps up, sort out

after-school clubs. Today I had to

0:33:520:33:55

host a play date after school.

Are

there any other stay at home dads?

0:33:550:34:00

When you go to the school gates are

they all mothers are some other

0:34:000:34:03

guys?

No other men in my position,

no. You do see a lot of men on the

0:34:030:34:09

school run these days but you do not

see them in the playground like me,

0:34:090:34:12

twice a day.

I wonder whether,

Polly, we put too much emphasis on

0:34:120:34:17

the very first year. The mother has

an important role denim

0:34:170:34:21

breast-feeding and maybe we should

put more weight and the later years

0:34:210:34:26

and dads would be more useful to be

around?

One of the things you can do

0:34:260:34:31

with shared parental leave is that

six months of mum attempt then mum

0:34:310:34:36

can go back to work and dad can take

the second six months. I think it

0:34:360:34:39

would be great if more people did

that. But there is a huge amount of

0:34:390:34:42

work by John is talking about that

comes with parenting later on, which

0:34:420:34:47

is the child is sick and you have to

pick them up for the nursery has

0:34:470:34:51

closed and is the inset day or a

snow day. By default, it tends to be

0:34:510:34:55

the mum that picks that up, just as

it is the daughter who picks up care

0:34:550:35:00

for elderly parents, so all of that

kind of eats into the number of

0:35:000:35:03

hours that a woman tends to work and

that eats into the whole earnings

0:35:030:35:08

profile women having comparison with

men, which is how we have ended up

0:35:080:35:12

with the situation where women are

51% of the population but take the

0:35:120:35:16

third of wages.

You are getting

straight back to the gender pay gap

0:35:160:35:20

and all those issues. Is it a

problem, Kate? That men and women

0:35:200:35:23

are not splitting paternity in the

wake policymakers are nudging them

0:35:230:35:27

to?

It is only a problem if they are

not able to do so, if the policies

0:35:270:35:34

and flexible enough and individuals,

choices and partners can't have that

0:35:340:35:37

conversation between themselves. It

is important to increase paternity

0:35:370:35:42

pay. It might be a cost to the

taxpayer but it might be something

0:35:420:35:45

we want to prioritise. It shouldn't

affect small businesses because they

0:35:450:35:48

can reclaim that money from the

state. I much more concerned with

0:35:480:35:52

the government tries to bringing in

some intrusive policy to hit its own

0:35:520:35:56

targets, despite what people might

be telling us. In that respect, the

0:35:560:36:01

policies proposed today by forced

dad leave, forcing them to take time

0:36:010:36:04

off, threaten their benefits and the

time they can take off if men don't

0:36:040:36:08

take a certain proportion is deeply

concerning to me. I don't think it's

0:36:080:36:11

a liberal, I don't think it is

flexible or represents what couples

0:36:110:36:15

want.

You basically think it is

about choice and as long as they are

0:36:150:36:19

freely choosing it doesn't matter if

there is some inequality or some

0:36:190:36:23

difference in the way people choose?

We want to make sure there is

0:36:230:36:28

equality in terms of being able to

take it, but of outcome is

0:36:280:36:31

absolutely fine.

Of course, as a

point of principle that is really

0:36:310:36:37

compelling but then you have the

reality, which is when a mum says to

0:36:370:36:41

her own employer, I want to take

time off work it's now brilliantly

0:36:410:36:44

really normal and OK and lots of

employers have on ramps and off

0:36:440:36:49

ramps to help people back. But if

the dad says I want to take six

0:36:490:36:53

months or even three months or even

six weeks, it's kind of, people know

0:36:530:36:57

they have legal obligations and feel

a bit awkward but it is not normal

0:36:570:37:01

lives. And actually a really

compelling thing about a daddy month

0:37:010:37:04

is it helps to have that

conversation. I think lots of men, I

0:37:040:37:10

would love to know what John Biggs,

don't feel empowered to have that

0:37:100:37:13

conversation with their employer.

They would love to do it but they

0:37:130:37:17

feel it's not what dads do.

Is that

correct?

I think it is right. I

0:37:170:37:25

would disagree with Kate, I don't

think it's a case of taking benefits

0:37:250:37:28

away from people, they take it or

don't. This issue of stand-alone

0:37:280:37:31

leave, it would basically put us all

on a level playing field, I think.

0:37:310:37:36

The crucial point here is it would

enable men to get involved with

0:37:360:37:42

their children from day one and if

you bond with your child from day

0:37:420:37:46

one there is reams of evidence and

involved father from the start they

0:37:460:37:50

can evolve with their start and have

better educational outcomes, better

0:37:500:37:55

mental health and, I lost my train

of thought...

Kate, there is a sort

0:37:550:38:01

of success breeds success if you get

dads to take time off because it is

0:38:010:38:05

probably easier for John, easy for

John if he wasn't the only man at

0:38:050:38:08

the play date?

Absolutely. As far as

I am concerned John is leading the

0:38:080:38:15

way on this. I said to him on and

off-screen how impressed I am by

0:38:150:38:19

that. I agree there is a cultural

problem but you don't change culture

0:38:190:38:23

organically and in a meaningful way

if you do it through false. I think

0:38:230:38:26

forcing couples, each individual to

take a certain amount of time off is

0:38:260:38:31

not the right way to go about it.

Nobody is proposing to force them,

0:38:310:38:35

it is use it or lose it.

Use it or

lose it, I think you're putting new

0:38:350:38:41

parents in a very difficult

situation where you are threatening

0:38:410:38:43

to take benefits away and time and

leave away when that could be

0:38:430:38:47

redistributed to the mother or the

father or to anybody who wants it.

0:38:470:38:51

Which is why shared parental leave

is a great thing. Why are we backing

0:38:510:38:57

away from there?

Becoming so

Draconian? The original plans we

0:38:570:39:01

wanted to put through were six weeks

for the mum, six weeks for the dad

0:39:010:39:06

that he couldn't give away and then

a big amount of shared parental

0:39:060:39:09

leave.

Why do you or anyone else in

no better for an individual couple?

0:39:090:39:14

It used to be 26 weeks for the mum

that she couldn't give away. We did

0:39:140:39:19

from 26 weeks the woman mum couldn't

give away, instead of taking it down

0:39:190:39:25

to two we give them am six weeks and

the dad to six weeks.

Who is getting

0:39:250:39:31

the raw deal? Bloom the

self-employed. You have framed it

0:39:310:39:35

very much as men are getting the

better deal because you looked at

0:39:350:39:38

this in the labour market rate. Is

there a privilege to looking after

0:39:380:39:43

the kids? Is it basically you are

getting a good deal now because you

0:39:430:39:47

have the kid time?

I think

ultimately, if you look at how much

0:39:470:39:51

time the majority of men spent with

their kids, I feel blessed, I really

0:39:510:39:56

do. There was a guy doing some

building work to how some years ago

0:39:560:40:01

in his 60s, stereotypical builder. I

was always around the house when he

0:40:010:40:04

was there an idle one day I would

have to explain to him why I was

0:40:040:40:08

there with my kids. I told him it's

me that looks after the kids, my

0:40:080:40:14

wife goes out to work and I did not

expect a positive reaction. He

0:40:140:40:17

stopped what he was doing and looked

away that said, I wish I could have

0:40:170:40:21

done what you don't because I never

saw my kids up.

The measure of

0:40:210:40:25

happiness, levels of women are hired

men, maybe this is a rather nice

0:40:250:40:30

thing to do? We talk about as if it

is a burden, after children?

This is

0:40:300:40:35

such an important point. When we

talk about the gender pay gap it's

0:40:350:40:39

how we can make women pursued the

same career trajectories of men and

0:40:390:40:43

there is never a conversation about

women having a healthy balance and

0:40:430:40:47

Mike are making choices that make

them happier. I think as long as

0:40:470:40:51

women can pursued the same career

trajectories we are in a good place.

0:40:510:40:54

We're not quite there yet. I think,

as has been pointed out my, it is

0:40:540:40:59

assumed women will take up the

household chores on childcare and I

0:40:590:41:02

think that is a bit of an unfair

assumption and there is more we

0:41:020:41:05

could do. Why is it that only going

to work and working 60, 70, 80 hours

0:41:050:41:10

a week is the right thing to do?

Kate is completely right and that.

0:41:100:41:14

The best thing from my perspective

is if we were to share both the joys

0:41:140:41:19

and burdens of family life. Changing

nappies is not massively fun but

0:41:190:41:24

playing with the baby is

extraordinary. Picking kids up and

0:41:240:41:28

going... There are wonderful things

but also sometimes I do feel like I

0:41:280:41:31

just want to stick to go to work

because I can sit down and have a

0:41:310:41:34

cup of coffee.

Sharing it more you

would enjoy it more.

It means we can

0:41:340:41:40

get away from the situation where

women don't have the money, they

0:41:400:41:43

don't have the pension savings

because they can share.

We are going

0:41:430:41:46

to leave it there. Thank you all

very much.

0:41:460:41:50

That is all we have time for this

evening. Emily will be here, but

0:41:500:41:53

until then, a very good night.

0:41:530:42:02