Browse content similar to 20/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Facebook faces the wrath
of regulators and customers | 0:00:04 | 0:00:07 | |
in multiple countries. | 0:00:07 | 0:00:09 | |
Its reputation has sunk,
along with its share price, | 0:00:09 | 0:00:12 | |
and a business plan based on liberal
sharing of data may be under threat. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:16 | |
Is the Cambridge Analytica
scandal a watershed moment | 0:00:16 | 0:00:21 | |
in our relation with Facebook,
and other Silicon Valley giants? | 0:00:21 | 0:00:25 | |
I don't know whether Cambridge
Analytica had a significant effect | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
on the Trump election. | 0:00:27 | 0:00:28 | |
I don't know whether they had
a significant effect on Brexit. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
I do know that the systems that have
been developed by Facebook give this | 0:00:31 | 0:00:37 | |
capability and make this
something that is possible | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
to happen in the future. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
We'll hear from Senator John
Kennedy, no relation, | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
who thinks data is the new oil. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:49 | |
Also tonight, John Sweeney dusts
down an old KGB handbook to find out | 0:00:49 | 0:00:54 | |
why the Russians might have used
a London based professor | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
as an alleged conduit
between Trump and the Kremlin. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
International conferences and
seminars are great for recruiting. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:06 | |
Stuffed with clever academic
scientists and business people, | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
they're the perfect place to,
quote, "Get information" | 0:01:09 | 0:01:13 | |
and influence foreigners. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
And shared parental leave... | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
Men are apparently,
generously still leaving | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
the bigger share to women. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:22 | |
But are fathers secretly just dying
to give up the office for the nappy? | 0:01:22 | 0:01:28 | |
For me, it's really a family time,
quality time, you know. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
So, it's very good. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
I love it, actually. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:37 | |
Yeah. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:38 | |
We'll ask if men really
think it's so great, | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
why aren't more doing it? | 0:01:41 | 0:01:47 | |
Hello. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:59 | |
The controversial political data
intelligence firm Cambridge | 0:01:59 | 0:02:01 | |
Analytica has suspended its chief
executive. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:04 | |
More on that soon. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:05 | |
But Facebook is not having
a great week either. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:07 | |
It's the biggest corporate crisis
since Volkswagen's diesel deceit. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
That inaugurated a significant
decline in diesel sales, | 0:02:09 | 0:02:14 | |
does this mark the same for Facebook
or even other tech giants? | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
In the US, the Federal Trade
Commission is reported | 0:02:17 | 0:02:19 | |
to be investigating. | 0:02:19 | 0:02:23 | |
Here, the Information Commissioner's
Office said it's applying | 0:02:23 | 0:02:32 | |
for a warrant get access
to Cambridge Analytica; and told | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
Facebook to drop its own audit
of the controversial political | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
data intelligence firm. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:39 | |
It was a sign that the authorities
here - as elsewhere - | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
are not going to let Facebook act
as though this is a little local | 0:02:42 | 0:02:45 | |
difficulty, that can be dealt
with via an in-house memo telling | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
people to wash the coffee cups. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:49 | |
Authorities across the West have
are shocked at the way Facebook let | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
app developers harvest data,
and then break all the rules | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
by passing it onto others. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:56 | |
And not tell anyone
when they discovered | 0:02:56 | 0:02:57 | |
rules had been broken. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:03 | |
How should we describe Facebook's
attitude to the date of its users at | 0:03:03 | 0:03:08 | |
the time Cambridge Analytica had
taken possession of so much of it? | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
Permissive, certainly. But in fact
is the goal. App developers could | 0:03:12 | 0:03:17 | |
make better apps could use on
Facebook if they could get the data. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:22 | |
Kellas? Well, yes. At that time apps
didn't just hoover up the user 's | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
data but could access the user 's
friends. That did stop in 2015. Is | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
the fact we might have given consent
defence for Facebook? I think | 0:03:30 | 0:03:38 | |
legally it is possible we might have
given Facebook permission to do | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
whatever they want with that data
but Facebook actually removed some | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
of these access points around 2014
and Mark Zuckerberg went on stage | 0:03:45 | 0:03:51 | |
and said people were surprised this
happened. I'm friends with you and | 0:03:51 | 0:03:57 | |
now you're upset because an app
surprises you. It is kind of clear | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
that the | 0:04:00 | 0:04:06 | |
that the legal... What's clear is
that the Cambridge Analytica affair | 0:04:06 | 0:04:10 | |
has hit a nerve, igniting an
international indignation at the | 0:04:10 | 0:04:14 | |
power of the company. One German
court found Facebook's default | 0:04:14 | 0:04:20 | |
consent settings breached European
law. The company faces potential | 0:04:20 | 0:04:26 | |
punishment and, crucially, a threat
to pieces of its business model. So | 0:04:26 | 0:04:30 | |
what's been happening up until now
is the lax control from Facebook has | 0:04:30 | 0:04:35 | |
allowed the advertisers to really
focus their advertising, to really | 0:04:35 | 0:04:41 | |
make it specific to users by
accessing the data that perhaps | 0:04:41 | 0:04:45 | |
under a controlled environment they
wouldn't necessarily have access to. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:49 | |
I think with the increased
regulation, we're going to see an | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
ending or certainly a much stricter
control of that, which will impact | 0:04:54 | 0:04:59 | |
the amount that advertisers are
going to be able to access | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
information, and therefore the
amount they are going to be able to | 0:05:02 | 0:05:08 | |
centre their advertising. That is
certainly going to make Facebook a | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
little less attractive for
advertisers. Let's be fair, there is | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
no direct evidence as yet that
Cambridge Analytica's use of | 0:05:15 | 0:05:20 | |
Facebook data actually had any very
big effect. Of course, Cambridge | 0:05:20 | 0:05:24 | |
Analytica would love you to believe
it has magical powers of persuasion, | 0:05:24 | 0:05:28 | |
as indeed most of its vocal critics
do, but does Chris Rogers yesterday | 0:05:28 | 0:05:35 | |
we learned the Conservative Party
has spent four times more on | 0:05:35 | 0:05:40 | |
Facebook than the Labour Party in
the run-up to last year's | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
collection. The Conservatives spend
millions on the best political | 0:05:43 | 0:05:48 | |
marketing research consultants but I
think it is fair to say, to put it | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
charitably, its campaign was not
regarded as among the best in | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
British election history. It was a
lesson in how the biggest brains | 0:05:55 | 0:05:58 | |
don't always get what they want.
Certainly, if they are indeed these | 0:05:58 | 0:06:04 | |
Svengali like super geniuses who can
make people believe things just by | 0:06:04 | 0:06:09 | |
targeted Facebook advertising, then
it kind of raises this question, why | 0:06:09 | 0:06:16 | |
haven't we seen that technique being
used by other people? Particularly | 0:06:16 | 0:06:18 | |
by people who sell stuff online
audio brand rather than trying to | 0:06:18 | 0:06:22 | |
market an election every four years.
How is the Amazon is not trying to | 0:06:22 | 0:06:30 | |
do custom advertising to you in
order to sell you a dishwasher? But | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
the damage is done, a corner has
been turned, data is being taken | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
more seriously, the company is being
taken is less trustworthy. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
I don't know whether Cambridge
Analytica had a significant affect | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
on the Trump election if they had a
significant effect on Brexit. I do | 0:06:46 | 0:06:50 | |
note that the systems that have been
developed by Facebook give this | 0:06:50 | 0:06:54 | |
capability make this something that
is possible to happen in the future, | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
and that is I think what is more
important. Not the specific event | 0:06:58 | 0:07:03 | |
but just happened but what the
implications are for our democracy | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
in the future, because the abilities
of these things will only get | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
better. Big data analysis is getting
more refined. The amount of | 0:07:09 | 0:07:15 | |
information there is getting
greater, so it means the likelihood | 0:07:15 | 0:07:17 | |
of being able to affect things is
increasing. | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
Mark Zuckerberg has been strangely
quiet on the whole affair. It's as | 0:07:21 | 0:07:25 | |
though data was some obscure data
area of law even in 2015 and data | 0:07:25 | 0:07:30 | |
was Facebook's business after all.
But it feels like the company is | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
leaving its teen years now and being
expected to take responsibility like | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
an adult. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
That is the Facebook side of it. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
Tonight, more revelations -
this time regarding the role | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
Cambridge Analytica claims to have
played in Donald Trump's | 0:07:45 | 0:07:47 | |
election as US President. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:48 | |
Chris Cook is with me. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:50 | |
Bring us up to date on developments.
We have to be clear, because of | 0:07:50 | 0:07:54 | |
Channel 4 News's excellent
reporting, we know they had an | 0:07:54 | 0:08:00 | |
undercover reporter talked to
various Cambridge Analytica | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
executives who claimed to have had a
critical effect on the election of | 0:08:02 | 0:08:08 | |
Donald Trump, to have the power to
spread anonymously. They also talked | 0:08:08 | 0:08:17 | |
about, talked in a way that made
some people draw the collusion that | 0:08:17 | 0:08:22 | |
-- conclusion that had been
collusion between the Trump campaign | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
and a supposedly independent
election group, which is not allowed | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
under US law. Cambridge Analytica
denies all these things that their | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
own executive have said and that is
why they suspended their chief | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
executive this evening. Let's talk
about the British investigation, | 0:08:36 | 0:08:41 | |
maybe not the one Facebook is most
terrified of, because the American | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
side is probably a big deal for
them. The information Commissioner | 0:08:44 | 0:08:50 | |
is on the case, how effective will
that be? The thing to know about the | 0:08:50 | 0:08:54 | |
information Commissioner is it is
not the world's most frightening | 0:08:54 | 0:08:58 | |
regulator at all. Fundamentally as
two functions. It does data | 0:08:58 | 0:09:02 | |
protection, which is why we are
talking about it tonight and Freedom | 0:09:02 | 0:09:05 | |
of information. These are two things
that are both real hassles the | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
government. So there is quite a
strong incentive for central | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
government not to give it too much
money because if they do they know | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
it will come straight for them.
Think of all the data that NHS and | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
schools and local authorities hold,
as well as the hassle and hatred in | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
Whitehall for Freedom of
information. There really is no game | 0:09:24 | 0:09:26 | |
for them in giving it a lot of
money. So even where it has | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
sufficient powers, and it has quite
good powers and data protection, it | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
doesn't have the bandwidth or
capacity to really take on big cases | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
and monthly it is a real scaredy-cat
when it comes to taking on big | 0:09:37 | 0:09:42 | |
things. We will seek what it does.
Thank you. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
Earlier I spoke to
Senator John Kennedy. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
He is the Republican Senator
for Louisiana and serves | 0:09:48 | 0:09:52 | |
on the Senate Judiciary committee -
a committee that Facebook officials | 0:09:52 | 0:09:54 | |
will give evidence to tomorrow. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
I started by asking whether it was
Cambridge Analytica that delivered | 0:09:57 | 0:10:01 | |
President Trump the election. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:05 | |
Well, you can't quantify it. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:10 | |
I mean, you can't really
say the President of | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
the United States became President
of the United States or a senator | 0:10:12 | 0:10:15 | |
became a senator because of
one particular factor. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
Campaigns are not like that. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:18 | |
There's a lot going on. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:20 | |
People have a multitude of reasons
for voting as they do. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
And I just don't
think that you can... | 0:10:24 | 0:10:28 | |
I mean, I have had
consultants pitch me all | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
the time in campaigns saying
you know, we have won this | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
election for this candidate. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:35 | |
We have won it for that candidate. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
And, you know, you smile politely,
but it doesn't work | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
that way. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:41 | |
There's no way to quantify
or evaluate what they are saying. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:47 | |
Your question is can
they have an impact? | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
Sure, they can have an impact. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:57 | |
How measurable it is
is another issue. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:00 | |
Hillary Clinton would say
it was such a fine election, so | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
narrow, and impact means that they
changed the course of history. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
They got Donald Trump elected. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:07 | |
And that is a big thing. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:08 | |
I don't agree with that. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:09 | |
I'm not prepared to say that. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
I don't think anybody can say that. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
Do I personally believe that
Cambridge Analytica elected Donald | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
Trump through their activities? | 0:11:15 | 0:11:16 | |
No. | 0:11:16 | 0:11:17 | |
I don't. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:23 | |
Do I believe that Russia influenced
the outcome of the election? | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
Influenced, perhaps. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:27 | |
Determined? | 0:11:27 | 0:11:28 | |
That's a whole different story. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:30 | |
OK, let's talk about Facebook,
which is obviously a much | 0:11:30 | 0:11:33 | |
bigger company and a more
important global player than | 0:11:33 | 0:11:35 | |
Cambridge Analytica. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:40 | |
A lot of people are just
saying, look uninstall | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
Facebook if you don't want your data
passed around like that, just get | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
rid of it. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
The company has lost trust
and people should uninstall it. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:50 | |
Do you think that is a piece
of consumer advice you would give? | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
Well, certainly transparency
is something we need to talk about. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
But before we look for remedies,
we have to understand the problem. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
And here's the problem. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:04 | |
Facebook is an
extraordinary company. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:10 | |
But it is no longer a company. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:11 | |
It is a country. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:12 | |
It is huge. | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
It is breathtakingly powerful. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
Data is the new oil. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:25 | |
And Facebook's behaviour leaves
something to be desired. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:29 | |
I mean, some of their
recent behaviour is | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
getting into the
foothills of creepy. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:34 | |
I don't want to see the
United States Congress just start | 0:12:34 | 0:12:39 | |
regulating, I would prefer to have
first a frank and candid discussion | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
with the social media CEOs
at the table with us, | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
in front of God and country
and the American public. | 0:12:46 | 0:12:53 | |
And anybody else wants to watch,
and let us talk frankly | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
about these issues. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:56 | |
We tried it once before. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
In the Judiciary Committee. | 0:12:58 | 0:12:59 | |
Facebook and the other social media
companies sent their lawyers. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
I don't know what they
paid their lawyers. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
But they did their job because they
didn't say a damn thing. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
They dodged, they weaved,
they stalled, they re-stalled, | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
but they would not confront
the issue. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:17 | |
Sorry to interrupt you,
but tomorrow Facebook | 0:13:17 | 0:13:22 | |
officials say they're going to brief
the Senate and house judiciary | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
committees with the latest. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:27 | |
Again, I don't expect
it is going to be | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
Mark Zuckerberg who's
going to come talking to you. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:34 | |
How are you going to make something
different next time so it isn't just | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
again you listening to a bunch
of lawyers saying we can't | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
answer that question? | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
Well I don't have the authority to
make anybody come to the judiciary. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
But our chairman does. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:45 | |
We have subpoena power. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
I would refer not to see
us get to that point. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
I don't even know if the chairman
is willing to have a hearing. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
I certainly hope he does. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:55 | |
We have had one hearing,
we need to have another. | 0:13:55 | 0:14:00 | |
And I would very respectfully
and politely but | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
firmly, suggest to Mr Zuckerberg
that he needs to come to talk to us. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
And subpoena him if he doesn't
accept the invitation? | 0:14:08 | 0:14:16 | |
We're not there yet. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:22 | |
We're not even to
the subpoena stage. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:24 | |
Let's give him the benefit
of the doubt and ask | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
him to come politely. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:29 | |
I mean, he is a smart
guy, obviously. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
He invented Facebook. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:32 | |
My aim in all this is not
to trash Facebook. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
I think Facebook has
done wonderful things. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
It has brought a lot
of people together and | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
helped spread democracy. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:46 | |
It was critical in the Arab Spring
in terms of people being able to | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
communicate with each other. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:50 | |
In many ways it brings
us closer together. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
But also in other ways it
brings us further apart. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
Can I just ask one last one. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:56 | |
You are talking about this
as a Facebook problem. | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
Is that your view or do
you think this is a | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
bigger, tech giant problem? | 0:15:01 | 0:15:02 | |
I think it is bigger. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
I'm talking about Facebook
because the Cambridge | 0:15:04 | 0:15:05 | |
Analytica issue had
to do with Facebook. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:12 | |
But you can make the same argument
for Twitter, Google, the | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
other social media companies. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:16 | |
I mean, let me say it again. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
I'm proud of them,
they are American companies. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
But they're not American
companies, they're not even | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
companies any more. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:25 | |
They are countries. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
They are breathtakingly powerful. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:29 | |
They know more about me than me. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
They know more about you than you. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:35 | |
And we need to talk about
the socio-, economic and cultural | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
problems that their size presents. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:42 | |
And the American people,
I don't know about | 0:15:42 | 0:15:50 | |
the folks in the UK, but
the American people | 0:15:53 | 0:15:55 | |
expect us to address
these issues and by God, | 0:15:55 | 0:15:57 | |
I
plan on doing that. | 0:15:57 | 0:15:58 | |
We can do it the hard
way or the easy way. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
Senator John Kennedy,
thanks very much. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:02 | |
Thanks for talking to us. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
Facebook has not succeeded
in knocking Russia off the news. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
It is only 16 days since the nerve
gas attack on the Skripals, | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
but today saw the 23 Russian embassy
staff leave the country. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:14 | |
Spies, diplomats -
call them whatever you want. | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
Today, in front of the long lenses
of the gathered press, | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
the Russians and their families
climbed onto a bus, taken off | 0:16:21 | 0:16:24 | |
to Stansted Airport,
and were basically booted out | 0:16:24 | 0:16:25 | |
of the country and
taken back to Moscow. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
If they were hoping to creep out
the back door of the country | 0:16:28 | 0:16:32 | |
without being noticed, they failed. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
As the Russian state owned
Ilyushin aircraft headed home, | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
the British government said they had
no plans for further | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
sanctions - for now. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:42 | |
Mark Urban is with me. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:48 | |
The other development is the OPCW
have started the deliberations. They | 0:16:48 | 0:17:00 | |
are the international watchdog. They
are now in the UK, more of them | 0:17:00 | 0:17:07 | |
coming and their director-general
said at least three weeks. They are | 0:17:07 | 0:17:11 | |
going to verify the Porton Down
scientists diagnosis that this was a | 0:17:11 | 0:17:17 | |
new generation Russian nerve agent.
Whether they are going to have the | 0:17:17 | 0:17:23 | |
exact forensic fix on it as having
come from a Russian factory is a | 0:17:23 | 0:17:28 | |
different matter. It may not resolve
the argument one way or the other. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:34 | |
These Russian diplomat left today.
Any more? Well the National Security | 0:17:34 | 0:17:42 | |
Council meeting today, we thought
there might be a task force on going | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
after Russian money and that kind of
thing but apparently not even that. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:51 | |
Maybe you get the sense that perhaps
we feel the diplomatic advantage is | 0:17:51 | 0:17:57 | |
with us. Today Donald Trump
congratulated President Putin on his | 0:17:57 | 0:18:03 | |
election victory. And you look at
these 23 and you see the British do | 0:18:03 | 0:18:09 | |
not want to get into any further
tit-for-tat. I understand the 23 is | 0:18:09 | 0:18:16 | |
not all of them. It was said in the
British statement that it was | 0:18:16 | 0:18:24 | |
undeclared. So we're not sure of the
numbers but some appear to have | 0:18:24 | 0:18:30 | |
stayed. You look at the expulsion of
the Brits from Moscow, I can tell | 0:18:30 | 0:18:36 | |
you 23 is more than that of
intelligence people the Brits had in | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
Russia. So they do not want to get
into any further tit-for-tat and | 0:18:39 | 0:18:44 | |
that also is a measure of how the
diplomatic advantage might not still | 0:18:44 | 0:18:49 | |
be with the UK in this. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
Now, I hesitated to call
the Russians that were sent home | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
today "spies", despite the fact
others have, not just | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
because it is there is perhaps no
clear line that defines | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
a spy at all. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:05 | |
Intelligence gathering is done
by many who are not living | 0:19:05 | 0:19:07 | |
under diplomatic cover. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:10 | |
And crucially, the Russian state has
long been known to make use | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
of people who aren't even Russians. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:15 | |
In the twilight zone
of spying and networking, | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
John Sweeney has been
looking at how this works, | 0:19:18 | 0:19:20 | |
focusing on one mysterious
professor, said to be | 0:19:20 | 0:19:22 | |
a London-based conduit
between President Trump | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
and the Russians. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:32 | |
Highgate Cemetery has always been
a place of intrigue for Russians. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:42 | |
The Tomb of Karl Marx stands
sentinel over those of other | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
socialists dignitaries. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:50 | |
And this is also the resting place
of former KGB officer | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
Alexander Litvinenko,
believed to have been | 0:19:54 | 0:19:56 | |
poisoned by Russian spies. | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
A reminder, as if one
were needed this week, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:03 | |
that Cold War espionage
is alive and well. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:11 | |
There's an old KGB handbook
which details the tricks Russian | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
intelligence got up to in the bad
old days of the Cold War. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
The gossip is these techniques
are still very much in use. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:23 | |
Lessson one; when targeting
the enemy, don't use a Russian | 0:20:23 | 0:20:25 | |
if you can find someone from a third
country who will do your | 0:20:25 | 0:20:29 | |
dirty work for you. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:34 | |
This is a strange tale
of the connections between three | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
men; the first Maltese,
the second Russian, | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
the third German. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
We begin with the links
between the Russian state | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
and the election campaign
of a certain American | 0:20:46 | 0:20:48 | |
reality TV star. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:53 | |
During the American election,
Trump advisors were offered e-mails | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
from inside Hillary Clinton's
campaign - e-mails | 0:20:57 | 0:21:00 | |
hacked by Russian spies. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:04 | |
The FBI has launched
a major investigation. | 0:21:04 | 0:21:10 | |
This is Trump advisor
George Papadopoulos. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | |
He pleaded guilty to making false
statements about contacts he'd had | 0:21:12 | 0:21:17 | |
with the Russian government. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
And Papadopoulos admitted to the FBI
that a mystery Maltese Professor | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
was the go-between between him
and the Russians. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
The Russians will use third
country nationals as really | 0:21:27 | 0:21:31 | |
mostly access agents,
to use the proper term, | 0:21:31 | 0:21:35 | |
meaning they're out there spotting
and assessing for targets | 0:21:35 | 0:21:37 | |
for Russian intelligence. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:38 | |
Particularly people who might not
want to talk to a Russian, | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
would be put off by talking
to a Russian for security | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
or personal reasons. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:45 | |
Someone who's a third country
national can be a lot better | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
person to be the face
of Russian intelligence. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
Papadopoulos admitted to the FBI
the professor told him | 0:21:49 | 0:21:54 | |
that the Russians possessed dirt
on Hillary Clinton in the form | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
of thousands of e-mails. | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
That he wanted to introduce
Papadopoulos to a contact | 0:21:59 | 0:22:03 | |
and that his contacts
were in the Russian Ministry | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
of Foreign Affairs. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:11 | |
The Maltese Professor
was this man, Joseph Mifsud. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
He was known as a diplomat
but Professor Mifsud's career had | 0:22:14 | 0:22:18 | |
began as an academic
here in Valletta, at | 0:22:18 | 0:22:20 | |
the University of Malta. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
He resigned in 2007 under
something of a cloud. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:28 | |
He then moved through a series
of academic institutions, | 0:22:28 | 0:22:31 | |
touting his expertise in diplomacy,
presenting as an ambassador, | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
but this is not true. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
Maltese journalist Jurgen Balzan has
checked out the facts. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
There's no evidence of him,
of Mifsud being an ambassador | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
or deployed in some Maltese foreign
ministry office abroad. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:55 | |
The man who never was an ambassador
moved to the London Academy | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
of Diplomacy in 2013; an obscure
outfit whose degrees were awarded | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
by the University of East Anglia
and the University of Stirling. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:11 | |
Here he is with a Russian
Ambassador, a real one, that is. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:17 | |
So why would a minor academic
working in British universities be | 0:23:17 | 0:23:19 | |
of interest to the Russians? | 0:23:19 | 0:23:24 | |
He is a very typical kind
of character in this world, | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
on the fringes of academia,
think-tankery and governments. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:31 | |
He looks nonthreatening,
he's a hanger on, he's | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
at all the parties. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
He's a wannabe, not a real player. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
In a strange way, that can actually
help the Russians because again, | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
the threat perception
of the Maltese, | 0:23:41 | 0:23:49 | |
-- drops considerably. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:57 | |
He is Maltese which is not
associated a lot with threats | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
of any kind, frankly, | 0:24:00 | 0:24:01 | |
he can get along in a lot of places. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
Mifsud had a fiance based in Ukraine
according to BuzzFeed. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
The woman says she hasn't seen
or heard of the professor | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
for months, but she's left
holding the baby. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
Weeks ago she gave birth
to their daughter. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
He got about a bit for business too. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
We've tracked some of the movements
of our humble professor. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:18 | |
In London, he met Boris Johnson
and junior minister Tobias Ellwood. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:25 | |
At the University in Rome,
he worked with two former | 0:24:25 | 0:24:27 | |
Italian foreign ministers. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
In Riyadh, he was at the think
tank run by former head | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
of Saudi intelligence,
Prince Turki Al-Faisal. | 0:24:32 | 0:24:37 | |
A source said he'd
regularly visited Moscow. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:43 | |
None of this, of course, is evidence
of him being a Russian asset. | 0:24:43 | 0:24:51 | |
But there's no denying
the benefits of networking. | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
Here's another nugget
from that old KGB handbook. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:58 | |
International conferences and
seminars are great for recruiting. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
Stuffed with clever academics,
scientists and business people, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:06 | |
they are the perfect place to,
quote, get information. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:10 | |
And influence foreigners. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
In 2016, the professor was in Moscow
for a Kremlin-backed | 0:25:14 | 0:25:17 | |
Valdai conference. | 0:25:17 | 0:25:20 | |
To his left is Ivan Timofeev,
who works at a think tank linked | 0:25:20 | 0:25:23 | |
to the Russian ministry
of foreign affairs. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
Democracy is such
a political regime. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
Which is most vulnerable in
comparison with every other kind... | 0:25:30 | 0:25:37 | |
The Washington Post says it is aware
of e-mails suggesting | 0:25:37 | 0:25:41 | |
Mifsud put the Trump team
in contact with Timofeev. | 0:25:41 | 0:25:45 | |
Also at the Valdai conference
we meet German-born Swiss-based | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
multimillionaire Dr Stephan Roh. | 0:25:48 | 0:25:53 | |
Stephan Roh, on the left,
is the third man. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:57 | |
He's a lawyer with close links
to Professor Mifsud. | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
Stephan and his Russian born
wife Olga have homes | 0:26:00 | 0:26:02 | |
in Switzerland, Monaco,
London, and Hong Kong. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:10 | |
And then there's this castle
in Scotland, and buying it made | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
Stephan and Olga the Baron
and Baroness of Inchdrewer. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:22 | |
In 2014 Stephan Roh became
a visiting lecturer | 0:26:22 | 0:26:24 | |
at the London Academy of Diplomacy. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:27 | |
He buys the private university
in Rome where Mifsud | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
is part of the management. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:31 | |
And Mifsud becomes a consultant
at Roh's legal firm. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:38 | |
In a way we always were in my family
very achievements oriented. | 0:26:38 | 0:26:44 | |
Here is Olga Roh, on the left,
in Fox's reality TV show, | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
Meet the Russians. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:54 | |
She's extraordinarily well
connected, running an upmarket dress | 0:26:54 | 0:26:55 | |
company in London's Mayfair. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:59 | |
Among her customers,
Britain's Prime Minister. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:05 | |
Here's Theresa May meeting
the Queen, in an Olga Roh coat. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
Most intriguing are Stephan's
business interests, | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
which appear extensive. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
Newsnight can reveal
the story of one. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:20 | |
In the autumn 2005 I received this
phone call from a Dr Stephan Roh | 0:27:20 | 0:27:25 | |
showing interest in the company
and explained very briefly | 0:27:25 | 0:27:27 | |
that he was involved or intended
to be involved with some technology | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
transfer from Russia to Europe. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
And he would like to do
this through my company. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:43 | |
Dr John Harbottle is a British
nuclear scientist who ran | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
a nuclear consultancy,
Severnvale Nuclear Services Ltd. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
He specialised in the effects
of radiation on fuel materials | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
in reactors in Britain,
France and the United States. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:58 | |
So what did Dr Roh want from him? | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
He explained that he would
like to acquire my company | 0:28:01 | 0:28:07 | |
but he wanted to retain my services
on the technical side | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
because he was a lawyer and had no
technical background at all. | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
Dr Roh bought the nuclear
consultancy, then invited | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
Dr Harbottle on an all expenses paid
trip to a conference, in Moscow. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:22 | |
But the nuclear scientist was alert
to the danger that visitors | 0:28:22 | 0:28:25 | |
to Moscow can be targeted,
or even honey-trapped, into | 0:28:25 | 0:28:28 | |
compromising situations. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:34 | |
I smelt a rat, you know. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:35 | |
It didn't sound as if it rang true. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:40 | |
And I decided that I wasn't
going to go to this meeting. | 0:28:40 | 0:28:43 | |
So Dr Harbottle declined to go. | 0:28:43 | 0:28:44 | |
Shortly afterwards, he was fired. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
Under Dr Harbottle, the company's
turnover had been £42,000 a year. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:53 | |
Within three years,
Severnvale Nuclear was turning over | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
more than $43 million a year under
Stephan Roh, with | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
just two employees. | 0:28:57 | 0:29:03 | |
On the face of it, it could be
a legitimate business, | 0:29:03 | 0:29:06 | |
highly successful in a short
space of time. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
However, my concerns are that it's
only got two employees, | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
neither of which are experts
in the field of a consultancy. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
So it could be money-laundering. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
Up from that, it could be a way
of obtaining nuclear capability | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
for the Russian energy sector
within Russia, it needs improvement. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
Dr Roh didn't respond to repeated
attempts to contact him. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:29 | |
The case of Stephan Roh
and Severnvale Nuclear | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
and of Joseph Mifsud
and Team Hillary's e-mails raises | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
big questions about these types
of international characters | 0:29:35 | 0:29:37 | |
and their links
to the Russian state. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:44 | |
The essential tradecraft used
by Russian intelligence today | 0:29:44 | 0:29:46 | |
is very similar to that used
in the Cold War, indeed it's | 0:29:46 | 0:29:49 | |
overwhelmingly similar. | 0:29:49 | 0:29:53 | |
So you can draw lines from the late
KGB to the present day with a lot | 0:29:53 | 0:29:58 | |
of ease and accuracy. | 0:29:58 | 0:29:59 | |
Professor Mifsud too did not
respond to Newsnight's | 0:29:59 | 0:30:05 | |
attempts to contact him. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
But has always denied
that he is a spy. | 0:30:07 | 0:30:14 | |
When approached by Italian
newspaper la Republica, | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
he said, "Secret agent? | 0:30:16 | 0:30:17 | |
I never got a penny
from the Russians. | 0:30:17 | 0:30:19 | |
My conscience is clean. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:20 | |
All I've done is to foster
relationships between official | 0:30:20 | 0:30:22 | |
and nonofficial sources." | 0:30:22 | 0:30:29 | |
Three years ago, the Government
introduced shared parental leave, | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
which gave couples the option
of splitting 50 weeks | 0:30:33 | 0:30:35 | |
of leave entitlement
between mother and father. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:40 | |
A charter for new dads to take more
responsibility for rearing baby. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
But some old habits have persisted. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:45 | |
Take up of the shared leave
scheme is very low - | 0:30:45 | 0:30:47 | |
about 3% of eligible couples. | 0:30:47 | 0:30:50 | |
The vast majority of
couples are sticking | 0:30:50 | 0:30:58 | |
to the traditional leave system -
maternity, with a side of paternity. | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
The subject has been analysed
by the House of Commons Women | 0:31:02 | 0:31:04 | |
and Equalities Committee -
we'll discuss it shortly, | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
but we went to Luton to speak
to parents about how they feel | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
about their roles in parenting... | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
We are equal parents. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:13 | |
It shouldn't be the mother
being at home looking | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
after the homestead all the time. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:18 | |
Getting time off from work,
spending time with the kids | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
at Easter holidays etc,
etc, so any more time | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
with the kids is a better thing. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:25 | |
Two weeks - it's not enough. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:28 | |
A man has every right to spend
time with their child | 0:31:28 | 0:31:30 | |
as much as a woman does. | 0:31:30 | 0:31:33 | |
Two weeks, it's not enough. | 0:31:33 | 0:31:34 | |
You can't bond with
a baby in two weeks. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:40 | |
It means that we get a little bit
of a break, as well, | 0:31:40 | 0:31:44 | |
and for a dad to actually be able
to spend time with their child, | 0:31:44 | 0:31:47 | |
it's one of the most
amazing things there is. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:49 | |
It's a very precious
thing, actually. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
So, as you can see, I've
brought my two children | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
and my foster child as well,
so we are having really | 0:31:55 | 0:31:58 | |
quality time over here. | 0:31:58 | 0:32:04 | |
I do know of families
where the father's had | 0:32:04 | 0:32:06 | |
to go back so quickly. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:10 | |
But even a week, two
weeks after the birth, | 0:32:10 | 0:32:12 | |
it's such a process for the woman
to go through, that they need time, | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
that time to physically recover
and have that support. | 0:32:16 | 0:32:18 | |
So for the dad to be able
to take some of that load | 0:32:18 | 0:32:21 | |
would mean a lot for them,
and improve rates of things | 0:32:21 | 0:32:24 | |
like postnatal depression. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:28 | |
I've got three kids myself,
so I got two weeks off, you know, | 0:32:28 | 0:32:31 | |
it wasn't much time at all. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:35 | |
Clearly times have definitely
changed, you know, women are no | 0:32:35 | 0:32:37 | |
longer at home any more,
they're working full-time jobs, | 0:32:37 | 0:32:39 | |
looking after kids. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:40 | |
Dads do the same thing,
so times have definitely changed. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:46 | |
With me here is director of the
think tank Demos Polly Mackenzie, | 0:32:46 | 0:32:50 | |
stay at home dad and blogger
John Adams, and Kate Andrews from | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
the Institute of Economic Affairs. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:58 | |
Very good evening to you all. John,
you are a stay at home dad. You | 0:32:58 | 0:33:03 | |
weren't there for paternity as such,
is that right? Not for shared | 0:33:03 | 0:33:07 | |
parental leave. When my first
daughter was born I took a month off | 0:33:07 | 0:33:10 | |
work to stay home with my wife and I
was needed at home. She had a very | 0:33:10 | 0:33:15 | |
hard birth, I had to be there to
keep the family running. When my | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
wife gave birth the second time, the
birth was straightforward but she | 0:33:18 | 0:33:23 | |
was re-hospitalised afterwards, very
high blood pressure and again I had | 0:33:23 | 0:33:25 | |
to take a month off so I could be at
home and keep the family running. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:29 | |
How old are your children now? Nine
and five. What is your day? CHUCKLES | 0:33:29 | 0:33:38 | |
My day these days involves getting
up, getting the children ready, | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
doing the school run and then when
they are actually at school I do a | 0:33:41 | 0:33:46 | |
little bit of freelance, and a bit
of money, then back to school, | 0:33:46 | 0:33:52 | |
picked this keeps up, sort out
after-school clubs. Today I had to | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
host a play date after school. Are
there any other stay at home dads? | 0:33:55 | 0:34:00 | |
When you go to the school gates are
they all mothers are some other | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
guys? No other men in my position,
no. You do see a lot of men on the | 0:34:03 | 0:34:09 | |
school run these days but you do not
see them in the playground like me, | 0:34:09 | 0:34:12 | |
twice a day. I wonder whether,
Polly, we put too much emphasis on | 0:34:12 | 0:34:17 | |
the very first year. The mother has
an important role denim | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
breast-feeding and maybe we should
put more weight and the later years | 0:34:21 | 0:34:26 | |
and dads would be more useful to be
around? One of the things you can do | 0:34:26 | 0:34:31 | |
with shared parental leave is that
six months of mum attempt then mum | 0:34:31 | 0:34:36 | |
can go back to work and dad can take
the second six months. I think it | 0:34:36 | 0:34:39 | |
would be great if more people did
that. But there is a huge amount of | 0:34:39 | 0:34:42 | |
work by John is talking about that
comes with parenting later on, which | 0:34:42 | 0:34:47 | |
is the child is sick and you have to
pick them up for the nursery has | 0:34:47 | 0:34:51 | |
closed and is the inset day or a
snow day. By default, it tends to be | 0:34:51 | 0:34:55 | |
the mum that picks that up, just as
it is the daughter who picks up care | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
for elderly parents, so all of that
kind of eats into the number of | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
hours that a woman tends to work and
that eats into the whole earnings | 0:35:03 | 0:35:08 | |
profile women having comparison with
men, which is how we have ended up | 0:35:08 | 0:35:12 | |
with the situation where women are
51% of the population but take the | 0:35:12 | 0:35:16 | |
third of wages. You are getting
straight back to the gender pay gap | 0:35:16 | 0:35:20 | |
and all those issues. Is it a
problem, Kate? That men and women | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
are not splitting paternity in the
wake policymakers are nudging them | 0:35:23 | 0:35:27 | |
to? It is only a problem if they are
not able to do so, if the policies | 0:35:27 | 0:35:34 | |
and flexible enough and individuals,
choices and partners can't have that | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
conversation between themselves. It
is important to increase paternity | 0:35:37 | 0:35:42 | |
pay. It might be a cost to the
taxpayer but it might be something | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
we want to prioritise. It shouldn't
affect small businesses because they | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
can reclaim that money from the
state. I much more concerned with | 0:35:48 | 0:35:52 | |
the government tries to bringing in
some intrusive policy to hit its own | 0:35:52 | 0:35:56 | |
targets, despite what people might
be telling us. In that respect, the | 0:35:56 | 0:36:01 | |
policies proposed today by forced
dad leave, forcing them to take time | 0:36:01 | 0:36:04 | |
off, threaten their benefits and the
time they can take off if men don't | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
take a certain proportion is deeply
concerning to me. I don't think it's | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
a liberal, I don't think it is
flexible or represents what couples | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
want. You basically think it is
about choice and as long as they are | 0:36:15 | 0:36:19 | |
freely choosing it doesn't matter if
there is some inequality or some | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
difference in the way people choose?
We want to make sure there is | 0:36:23 | 0:36:28 | |
equality in terms of being able to
take it, but of outcome is | 0:36:28 | 0:36:31 | |
absolutely fine. Of course, as a
point of principle that is really | 0:36:31 | 0:36:37 | |
compelling but then you have the
reality, which is when a mum says to | 0:36:37 | 0:36:41 | |
her own employer, I want to take
time off work it's now brilliantly | 0:36:41 | 0:36:44 | |
really normal and OK and lots of
employers have on ramps and off | 0:36:44 | 0:36:49 | |
ramps to help people back. But if
the dad says I want to take six | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
months or even three months or even
six weeks, it's kind of, people know | 0:36:53 | 0:36:57 | |
they have legal obligations and feel
a bit awkward but it is not normal | 0:36:57 | 0:37:01 | |
lives. And actually a really
compelling thing about a daddy month | 0:37:01 | 0:37:04 | |
is it helps to have that
conversation. I think lots of men, I | 0:37:04 | 0:37:10 | |
would love to know what John Biggs,
don't feel empowered to have that | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
conversation with their employer.
They would love to do it but they | 0:37:13 | 0:37:17 | |
feel it's not what dads do. Is that
correct? I think it is right. I | 0:37:17 | 0:37:25 | |
would disagree with Kate, I don't
think it's a case of taking benefits | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
away from people, they take it or
don't. This issue of stand-alone | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
leave, it would basically put us all
on a level playing field, I think. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:36 | |
The crucial point here is it would
enable men to get involved with | 0:37:36 | 0:37:42 | |
their children from day one and if
you bond with your child from day | 0:37:42 | 0:37:46 | |
one there is reams of evidence and
involved father from the start they | 0:37:46 | 0:37:50 | |
can evolve with their start and have
better educational outcomes, better | 0:37:50 | 0:37:55 | |
mental health and, I lost my train
of thought... Kate, there is a sort | 0:37:55 | 0:38:01 | |
of success breeds success if you get
dads to take time off because it is | 0:38:01 | 0:38:05 | |
probably easier for John, easy for
John if he wasn't the only man at | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
the play date? Absolutely. As far as
I am concerned John is leading the | 0:38:08 | 0:38:15 | |
way on this. I said to him on and
off-screen how impressed I am by | 0:38:15 | 0:38:19 | |
that. I agree there is a cultural
problem but you don't change culture | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
organically and in a meaningful way
if you do it through false. I think | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
forcing couples, each individual to
take a certain amount of time off is | 0:38:26 | 0:38:31 | |
not the right way to go about it.
Nobody is proposing to force them, | 0:38:31 | 0:38:35 | |
it is use it or lose it. Use it or
lose it, I think you're putting new | 0:38:35 | 0:38:41 | |
parents in a very difficult
situation where you are threatening | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
to take benefits away and time and
leave away when that could be | 0:38:43 | 0:38:47 | |
redistributed to the mother or the
father or to anybody who wants it. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
Which is why shared parental leave
is a great thing. Why are we backing | 0:38:51 | 0:38:57 | |
away from there? Becoming so
Draconian? The original plans we | 0:38:57 | 0:39:01 | |
wanted to put through were six weeks
for the mum, six weeks for the dad | 0:39:01 | 0:39:06 | |
that he couldn't give away and then
a big amount of shared parental | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
leave. Why do you or anyone else in
no better for an individual couple? | 0:39:09 | 0:39:14 | |
It used to be 26 weeks for the mum
that she couldn't give away. We did | 0:39:14 | 0:39:19 | |
from 26 weeks the woman mum couldn't
give away, instead of taking it down | 0:39:19 | 0:39:25 | |
to two we give them am six weeks and
the dad to six weeks. Who is getting | 0:39:25 | 0:39:31 | |
the raw deal? Bloom the
self-employed. You have framed it | 0:39:31 | 0:39:35 | |
very much as men are getting the
better deal because you looked at | 0:39:35 | 0:39:38 | |
this in the labour market rate. Is
there a privilege to looking after | 0:39:38 | 0:39:43 | |
the kids? Is it basically you are
getting a good deal now because you | 0:39:43 | 0:39:47 | |
have the kid time? I think
ultimately, if you look at how much | 0:39:47 | 0:39:51 | |
time the majority of men spent with
their kids, I feel blessed, I really | 0:39:51 | 0:39:56 | |
do. There was a guy doing some
building work to how some years ago | 0:39:56 | 0:40:01 | |
in his 60s, stereotypical builder. I
was always around the house when he | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
was there an idle one day I would
have to explain to him why I was | 0:40:04 | 0:40:08 | |
there with my kids. I told him it's
me that looks after the kids, my | 0:40:08 | 0:40:14 | |
wife goes out to work and I did not
expect a positive reaction. He | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
stopped what he was doing and looked
away that said, I wish I could have | 0:40:17 | 0:40:21 | |
done what you don't because I never
saw my kids up. The measure of | 0:40:21 | 0:40:25 | |
happiness, levels of women are hired
men, maybe this is a rather nice | 0:40:25 | 0:40:30 | |
thing to do? We talk about as if it
is a burden, after children? This is | 0:40:30 | 0:40:35 | |
such an important point. When we
talk about the gender pay gap it's | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
how we can make women pursued the
same career trajectories of men and | 0:40:39 | 0:40:43 | |
there is never a conversation about
women having a healthy balance and | 0:40:43 | 0:40:47 | |
Mike are making choices that make
them happier. I think as long as | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
women can pursued the same career
trajectories we are in a good place. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:54 | |
We're not quite there yet. I think,
as has been pointed out my, it is | 0:40:54 | 0:40:59 | |
assumed women will take up the
household chores on childcare and I | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
think that is a bit of an unfair
assumption and there is more we | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
could do. Why is it that only going
to work and working 60, 70, 80 hours | 0:41:05 | 0:41:10 | |
a week is the right thing to do?
Kate is completely right and that. | 0:41:10 | 0:41:14 | |
The best thing from my perspective
is if we were to share both the joys | 0:41:14 | 0:41:19 | |
and burdens of family life. Changing
nappies is not massively fun but | 0:41:19 | 0:41:24 | |
playing with the baby is
extraordinary. Picking kids up and | 0:41:24 | 0:41:28 | |
going... There are wonderful things
but also sometimes I do feel like I | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
just want to stick to go to work
because I can sit down and have a | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
cup of coffee. Sharing it more you
would enjoy it more. It means we can | 0:41:34 | 0:41:40 | |
get away from the situation where
women don't have the money, they | 0:41:40 | 0:41:43 | |
don't have the pension savings
because they can share. We are going | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
to leave it there. Thank you all
very much. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
That is all we have time for this
evening. Emily will be here, but | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
until then, a very good night. | 0:41:53 | 0:42:02 |