21/03/2018 Newsnight


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21/03/2018

Stories behind the headlines with Emily Maitlis. With an in-depth look at the Westminster Bridge attack one year on, Facebook's data problem and Alexander Stubb on the EU summit.


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It's been one year since terror hit

the streets of Westminster

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and five people lost their lives.

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The attack confounded

security services.

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Who was the perpetrator?

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Had he worked alone?

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Tonight, an extended Newsnight

investigation brings

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you significant new information

about who he radicalized,

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and why he acted when he did.

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-- on how he was radicalised.

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What's going to be our next

move against Russia?

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The Prime Minister will address

the our relationship with Russia

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at the EU summit tomorrow,

and she won't be holding back.

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EU leaders will be warned by the

Prime Minister that they are all

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under threat from Russia, but will

they listen?

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Also tonight, a status update

from Mark Zuckerberg

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on Facebook's data breach.

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We'll ask if the social media

giant is doing enough

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to salvage its reputation.

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Good evening.

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One year ago a 52-year-old

British man,

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Khalid Masood, brought terror

to the heart of Westminster.

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More than 50 people

were injured, five were killed.

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Tomorrow the lives of PC

Keith Palmer, Kurt Cochran,

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Aysha Frade, Leslie Rhodes

and Andreea Cristea

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will be remembered

at a memorial service.

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The man behind the attack

was out to hit the seat

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of British democracy,

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driving a vehicle into

pedestrians along the Bridge

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before attempting to

enter Parliament itself.

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But he didn't fit

the typical profile.

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We were told he acted alone.

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That police were baffled

by his motivation.

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Tonight, in an extended film

and investigation

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Newsnight reports

on who he was

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and how he was radicalised.

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Richard Watson and producer

Maria Polhofska have worked

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on this report which contains images

of the attack some may

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find distressing.

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London, 22nd of March last year.

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Khalid Masood floors

the accelerator of his 4x4,

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mounting the pavement on Westminster

Bridge.

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Watch the highlighted circle,

the car was his murder weapon.

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This wasn't a random attack.

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This was an individual who'd been

an extremist for many, many years,

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whose pattern of behaviour over

many, many years

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was characteristic of many Islamist

extremists that we see.

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Minutes earlier,

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Masood had sent a document to his

Whatsapp messaging group,

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justifying his terrorist attack.

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It was called "Retaliation".

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Three people were killed

outright on the bridge,

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one died later in hospital.

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Newsnight has learned it

could have been even worse.

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Security sources have told Newsnight

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that these barriers saved 25-30

lives of the day of the attack,

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and that's because Khalid Masood's

car was forced off the pavement

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and onto the road at the start

of the barriers,

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he drove along here and then cut

back into the pavement

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at the end of the barriers,

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crashing the car over

there on the left.

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My God!

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Seconds later, he jumped out

of his car armed with two knives,

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ran down here through a barrier

leading to the Palace of Westminster

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and stabbed PC Palmer.

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A plainclothes protection

officer shot Masood dead,

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but PC Palmer was mortally wounded.

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There was an awful

lot of blood loss.

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We had a pulse at that point,

which I was pleased about,

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because I thought absolutely we can

keep him alive.

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Tobias Ellwood MP, seen

here kneeling next to PC Palmer,

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used his army medical training,

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chest compressions, mouth-to-mouth

resuscitation,

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in a desperate effort

to keep him alive.

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Eventually doctors said,

OK, I think we're just

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going to have to call it,

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and I remember looking

at him and saying,

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"You're going to have

to tell me to stop, Sir,

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because otherwise I'm

going to keep doing this."

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And he just said, "Sir,

you've done your best,

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we've all done our best here,

I call the time of death."

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I do recall the silence.

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The doctors and all the medics

and the entire team then moved away

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with all their equipment

and I was left there with a couple

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of the original policeman,

who by this time were very,

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very upset because it

was their colleague.

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It was very eerie to be able to hear

the leaves in the trees and sounds

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you're not normally familiar

with at all but not a single

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movement of traffic, not a horn,

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not anybody speaking,

no shouts, nothing whatsoever.

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To be in front of his body,

when everybody else then disbursed,

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and then it was up to us to,

in a dignified way,

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cover the body up

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and then wait for the

forensics to turn up,

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because of course this

was now a murder scene.

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Look, here.

From here?

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Yeah.

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Masood had murdered five people

in an attack lasting 90 seconds.

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The first of a series

of terrorist attacks

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that killed 36 people last spring.

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A year later, approaching

the anniversary of the attacks,

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Newsnight has been investigating

Khalid Masood and his connections

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to UK extremists,

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searching for clues that might help

explain his murderous rampage.

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We have significant new information.

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There is a widely-held belief

that this was the work

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of one crazed individual,

a so-called lone actor.

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While it's true that Masood was not

part of a terrorist cell,

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he's had contact with extremist

terrorists over the past 13 years.

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We started by looking at his links

to drugs and violent crime.

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A source in Eastbourne,

where he once lived,

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told us he was using crack cocaine

in the '90s.

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He was dealing drugs

and could be extremely violent.

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He'd already been convicted

of stabbing a man in the face

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in 2000 in East Sussex,

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and later, in another attack,

when he got out of prison,

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he stabbed his friend.

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Full on punched me, stabbed me

straight in the face.

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Put me straight on the floor.

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I've turned round to try to get

up,

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and he's trying

to stab me in the back.

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Most Islamic extremists

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that we've come across in the last

five or ten years

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have had a history

of criminality,

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most of them are criminals,

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and many of them have got a history

of violence as well,

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and violent criminality.

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Masood, then Adrian Ajao,

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is thought to have converted

to Islam while in prison.

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Freed in 2003, he chose to live

in a succession of places which have

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been extremism hotspots in the UK.

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They were all strongholds

of the Islamist group

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I've investigated for nearly 20

years, al-Muhajiroun.

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This is a proscribed

organisation in this country,

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a proscribed terror organisation

but it takes root in certain parts

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of certain communities,

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and Khalid Masood moved from one

area to another

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where there was activity

by al-Muhajiroun.

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It was in Crawley in 2004

that he came up on the security

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services' radar for the first time.

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The town was at the centre

of a plot using fertiliser,

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stored here, to make home-made bombs

to blow up nightclubs

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and bars in the south-east.

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Masood's telephone number

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was on the contacts list of someone

MI5 was investigating.

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But he was on the periphery

and wasn't investigated.

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Does a detail in the public records

provide a clue to his militant

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Islamist mindset back then?

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In 2004, Khalid Masood

married his second wife,

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Farzana Malik, at this registry

office in Medway, in Kent.

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I've got the certificate here,

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and the date on it is very

interesting indeed.

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The marriage took place

on the anniversary of the 9/11

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attacks on New York,

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the 11th of September, 2004.

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We asked a former Jihadist

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who infiltrated Al-Qaeda

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and spied on the group for Britain's

secret intelligence service MI6

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what he made of the choice of date.

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Well, I mean, that is rather

shocking, and most likely speaks

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volumes of how he viewed

that particular anniversary.

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So most likely he thought

it was a joyous day.

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He is not the only one,

unfortunately there are legions

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of people who believe basically

it was a joyous day.

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From 2005 to 2009, Masood spent time

in Saudi Arabia, teaching English.

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First in Yanbu

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and then at the government's

aviation school in Jeddah.

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This man knows some of his fellow

students from those days.

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Based on what the students

who attended his classes,

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now they are professionals

in the aviation industry

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in Saudi Arabia,

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they describe someone

who was more on the path

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of radicalism, in a sense.

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He was serious, he wasn't someone

who would describe the Saudi society

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as a true Islamic society.

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He would say

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that there are many

things about the Saudi

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society that was wrong.

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Especially the path they are taking

in terms of modernity.

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When he was living in Jeddah,

British intelligence suspected

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Masood was helping extremists join

Al-Qaeda in the Federally

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Administered Tribal

Areas of Pakistan.

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In London, MI5 later

assessed Masood had been

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misidentified, they'd

got the wrong man.

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Meanwhile, in Saudi,

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his students saw a man

who was ultraconservative.

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They were worried, basically,

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that he was really more

conservative Muslim

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than Saudi conservatives themselves!

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There was no doubt that he was a

Salafist. But he went even beyond

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that.

On his return to the UK, new

moved to Luton. He taught English at

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the private language school, here at

the Britannia Centre. -- he moved to

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Luton. At the time it was owned and

run by trustees of the is lamb

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mosque.

Part-time teacher, would

come there, would disappear,

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pleasant person to talk to.

Luton

Islamic State wallows fundamentalist

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Salafist teachings and so did Khalid

Masood.

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But the Imam has had street

confrontations with al-Muhajiroun in

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the town, and has said that if the

lead Masuda had shown any signs of

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supporting the group he would have

into means that he would have

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intervened.

If he had the slightest

indication that he was adopting

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radical beliefs, we would deal with

it on the spot, we would not give it

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the opportunity to fester grow.

Did

Luton or the mosque or the

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organisation have anything to do

with his radicalisation?

Absolutely

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not, absolutely not, if you look at

where we come from, and you study

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Luton Islamic State, we are the

forefront of refuting extremism.

But

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security sources have told Newsnight

that the lead Masuda was associating

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with extremists in Luton, once

again, picked up on MI5's radar

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because he was in contact with these

men, convicted of plotting a terror

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attack on a Territorial Army base in

the town. Khalid Masood lived a few

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streets away from the plotters, at

this point, MI5 still classified him

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as a subject of interest, but his

file was closed in October, 2012,

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occurs there was no evidence that he

posed a direct threat the UK.

He was

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coming in and out, if you like, the

surveillance that was going on at

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the time, it would not mean that he

was caught, and that he was plotting

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as such, but he may well have had

awareness of those who were

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plotting. -- it would not mean that

he was core. He would be cognisant

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of what was being planned and talked

about. He was well-known, but prior

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to Westminster, he had never been a

central figure in the conspiracy to

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carry out a terrorist attack.

SHOUTING

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Between 2012 and 2016, Masood was in

contact with al-Muhajiroun

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supporters who were being actively

investigated by MI5. He expressed

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support for 9/11. MI5 has said that

neither of those facts warranted

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reopening the investigation into

him. In 2016, he was living in

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Birmingham, with his third wife.

Masood is believed to have been

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running a private tutoring business

here. He joined an established

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Salafist community but was already

planning his next move, this time,

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overseas, to Saudi Arabia. In May,

2016, we understand that he was

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stopped from travelling to Jeddah,

to start a new job, could this have

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been the trigger for the attack? Is

this why he called his farewell

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document Retaliation? New research

suggests denial of travel can be a

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key risk factor for terror attacks.

He was in touch with a

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transportation company, in Jeddah,

in Saudi Arabia, which specialises

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in transporting pilgrims who are

visiting Mecca, Medina, the holy

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cities. Why did the Saudi

authorities refused his work Visa?

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We understand... The understanding,

based on the confidential source

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from Saudi Arabia, the understanding

is that his name was on a list

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provided, without saying who

provided the list, but it was

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provided to them.

By British

intelligence, I would imagine?

Most

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likely, most likely it was provided

by the authorities here.

A key

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question, then, for the police and

MI5, was Saudi Arabia his end

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destination or did Masood have an

ambition to go to a jihadist Theatre

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of war? Counterterrorism sources say

they found no evidence that he was

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trying to fight in Syria but he had

been linked to people trying to get

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to the Afghan border, in the past.

If he was going to be more less in

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the service of pilgrims, coming into

Mecca and Medina, that is not

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extremists me to if he was using

that as a pretext to go into Syria,

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then yes, that was extreme. -- that

is not extremist; if he was using

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that as a pretext, that was extreme.

His Visa was refused, could that be

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significant?

I think it could be

significant, like many of his kind,

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like many Islamist extremists, at

some stage, they often have an

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aspiration to travel to one of the

theatres of, where jihadis is going

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on, whether that be in Afghanistan,

in the early 2000s, or laterally,

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Islamic State, Syria and Iraq, it

looks on the face of it that that

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could have been the trigger. If

something is put in the way the

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aspiration go overseas. -- latterly.

Then they decide to carry out an

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attack here.

Research carried out by

Canada's Secret Service, after two

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attacks there, lends to this theory.

100,000 intelligence reports were

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analysed, looking for factors that

turn ideological extremists into

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attackers, it is called mobilisation

to violence.

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I'm proud to say our work has been

ground-breaking. The analysts have

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been inspired by the fact we had two

attacks in Canada. We never had

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attacks like that before and they

want to make sure that we were being

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as effective as possible, it was

their contribution to it.

In October

0:16:450:16:53

2014, a man deliberately mowed down

soldiers in Quebec. One was killed.

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He'd had his passport seized three

months before the attack. He was

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denied travel.

There can be a

variety of factors that lead them to

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switch parts but it is a fluid

process we see a switching back and

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forth. It's not a surprise we would

see them go from a denial of travel,

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where travel was the objective, to

subsequently plotting an attack.

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This is so-called Islamic State's

cheap propagandist. He released a

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video in 2014 telling his supporters

explicitly that if you can't get to

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the caliphate, then attack at home

with knives and cars. That is what

0:17:340:17:37

Masood did. From his family home in

this well-kept suburban estate in

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Birmingham he started downloading

extremist material in 2016,

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searching so-called Islamic State

and planning to travel. It is now

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believed he started to plan the

Westminster bridge attack from here.

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In the months before the attack, he

told his family he was planning to

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move abroad for a second time.

Newsnight understands that the

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police investigation after the

attack found he was on the verge of

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travelling overseas with another

man. We don't know to wear. I also

0:18:130:18:19

understand the police investigation

suspected Masood was radicalising a

0:18:190:18:23

third man, by giving him religious

instruction. It seems he was making

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final preparations for the attack

and in December 2016, moved into

0:18:280:18:34

this small bedsit in Hackney Road,

Central Birmingham. We spoke to a

0:18:340:18:37

former flatmate.

He was a different person, I can see

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that, because of his clothing, his

beard, his style was different. He

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was wearing, always, a cloth that is

just one piece from his shoulders to

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his feet. I wasn't scared of him.

You weren't scared?

No, because as I

0:18:590:19:09

say, he was very calm. He was

minding his own business, and my

0:19:090:19:19

expression was... Sorry, my

impression of him was he was more

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like a spiritual guide.

On the 22nd of March, he thought

0:19:220:19:28

Callard missed dude was in his room

when the police raided hours after

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the attack.

I saw a couple of police

cars. I went to the stairs and I saw

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fully armoured police offers.

How

many, roughly?

Just on the stairs

0:19:460:19:54

there were four or five of them.

With guns?

Fully equipped, with all

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the body armour, with machine guns,

with the green lasers pointing at

0:20:000:20:07

me. It was like I was in a movie.

It

must've been massive shock?

Yes,

0:20:070:20:16

yes, I was in shock when I found out

the guy living next to me murdered

0:20:160:20:23

innocent people.

The police and MI5 were racing to

0:20:230:20:30

find out if Masood was part of a

wider cell or if he'd entered alone.

0:20:300:20:36

12 people were arrested. They were

all later released without charge.

0:20:360:20:41

Ultimately, the police and MI5

concluded that Masood acted alone,

0:20:410:20:45

but this was not a random attack by

any means. Newsnight has charted his

0:20:450:20:51

long-standing connections to

extremism. What triggered him to

0:20:510:20:54

strike at Westminster bridge

question why did he blamed the

0:20:540:20:58

British state for disrupting his

travel plans? It is hard to get

0:20:580:21:02

inside the head of such a violent

and volatile man, and

0:21:020:21:07

counterterrorism experts argue his

precise motivations died with him.

0:21:070:21:15

Richard Watts and reporting there.

0:21:150:21:17

"We have a responsibility

to protect your data",

0:21:170:21:19

Mark Zuckerberg shared in an update

this evening.

0:21:190:21:26

"And if we can't, then we don't

deserve to serve you.

0:21:260:21:28

I've been working to understand

exactly what happened

0:21:280:21:30

and how to make sure this

doesn't happen again.

0:21:300:21:32

The good news is that the most

important actions to prevent this

0:21:320:21:35

from happening again today we have

already taken years ago.

0:21:350:21:40

But we also made mistakes,

there's more to do, and we need

0:21:400:21:42

to step up and do it".

0:21:420:21:47

His Chief Operating Officer

at Facebook added her own statement.

0:21:470:21:50

"I deeply regret

we didn't do enough".

0:21:500:21:51

Said Sheryl Sandberg.

0:21:510:21:53

So tonight, we ask

how much is enough -

0:21:530:21:55

and what Facebook knew

about what it had got wrong.

0:21:550:21:57

Dipayan Ghosh worked

for Facebook in the Privacy

0:21:570:21:59

and Public Policy Team.

0:21:590:22:02

He's now a fellow at

the Harvard Kennedy

0:22:020:22:04

School of Government.

0:22:040:22:05

Eileen Burbidge is a partner

at Passion Capital, early stage

0:22:050:22:07

tech, who previously worked

at Apple.

0:22:070:22:09

Lovely to have you both. Your scale

of, your assessment of the scale of

0:22:090:22:17

the problems now at Facebook and

weather tonight's apology mitigates

0:22:170:22:20

at all?

It is a tremendous scale,

this issue. This is a matter that is

0:22:200:22:30

beyond just user privacy. Obviously,

50 million people's data, over that,

0:22:300:22:37

was breached, in a sense, and this

is a massive user privacy issue. It

0:22:370:22:42

is also a major issue for the

National security, and for the

0:22:420:22:47

integrity of democratic institutions

around the world.

So tremendous

0:22:470:22:50

scale. When you worked at Facebook

in the private policy, how important

0:22:500:22:55

did it feel that was to them?

It's

hugely important for the company.

0:22:550:23:04

Privacy is the bread-and-butter for

the company, and if it gets privacy

0:23:040:23:07

wrong, its stock price drops. There

is a direct correlation there, as we

0:23:070:23:16

had seen. It is the company's

responsibility to protect user

0:23:160:23:22

privacy. In this case, there were

certain breaches and I think the

0:23:220:23:29

company needs to assess what has

happened and try to take positive

0:23:290:23:33

action going forward.

Do you

understand how they let it happen?

0:23:330:23:38

If it's as important as you say, how

did they allow an academic to

0:23:380:23:43

download those apps without any

checks and balances to see how

0:23:430:23:46

widely they were being shared?

Well,

I think this is a very difficult

0:23:460:23:55

situation, because academics are

always clamouring to get access to

0:23:550:23:59

the data that tech companies hold.

Facebook's data is, of course,

0:23:590:24:06

extremely valuable for academic

study and to the extent the company

0:24:060:24:09

can be transparent about it. It is a

net positive for society. In this

0:24:090:24:14

case, the academic clearly breached

his policy with the company and that

0:24:140:24:22

is a tremendously egregious action.

That is what has been reported, at

0:24:220:24:25

least.

So who do you think made the

biggest breach of trust in all of

0:24:250:24:30

this? Who has let down who the most?

Well, I think that what we have do

0:24:300:24:39

remember here is that Facebook

operates no differently from any

0:24:390:24:44

other major Internat company,

Google, Twitter, Snapchat. The

0:24:440:24:49

entire industry operates on the

premise that we collect a lot of

0:24:490:24:53

data, were going to try and monetise

that in the digital advertising

0:24:530:24:59

ecosystem. So I don't see the

practices of this particular company

0:24:590:25:02

is any different to any other. I

think what we really need to try and

0:25:020:25:07

understand is the checks and

balances that companies like

0:25:070:25:11

Facebook Place an academics and

other third parties they share data

0:25:110:25:15

with, as well as the way that these

companies enforce the agreement they

0:25:150:25:22

said with third parties who receive

data. Which, of course in this case,

0:25:220:25:27

we have seen harm the public.

You

don't think in future they will

0:25:270:25:32

collect less data, do you?

Well, I

think that remains to be seen. I

0:25:320:25:40

think a lot of this is going to

depend on the way that Washington,

0:25:400:25:45

DC and the rest of the regulatory

community around the world starts

0:25:450:25:50

thinking about this burgeoning

industry. There may be checks placed

0:25:500:25:59

on the way that these kinds of

companies, like Facebook, can

0:25:590:26:03

collect data, which may or may not

have positive effects for consumers

0:26:030:26:08

at the end of the day.

Just stay

there for a second if you can.

0:26:080:26:14

Alexander Nix told me on Monday, he

was the boss of Cambridge Analytica,

0:26:140:26:19

of course, that he felt the media

had been out to get it. One of the

0:26:190:26:22

questions we just do not know is how

helpful Facebook word to the Donald

0:26:220:26:28

Trump campaign and whether there

would have been the same interest if

0:26:280:26:32

Hillary Clinton had won.

I think

that is really difficult to say but

0:26:320:26:36

I suspect other parties would be

complaining if it had been the other

0:26:360:26:39

way, but I do think there are a

number of issues that are being

0:26:390:26:43

conflated, which makes this a

situation which is not going away. I

0:26:430:26:46

think there is one issue about

Facebook and about third parties

0:26:460:26:51

that use its data and then violate

its terms of services. There is

0:26:510:26:55

another issue about Facebook's lack

of disclosure and lack of

0:26:550:26:58

transparency about when those

violations happened and how it

0:26:580:27:01

behaves in response to that. Then

there is another issue yet about

0:27:010:27:05

what is being done with that data.

So I don't think there would be

0:27:050:27:09

quite so much backlash, for example,

if it turned out to be a clothing

0:27:090:27:12

retailer who had used data servicing

adverts for clothing.

This is the

0:27:120:27:20

question, if we know our data is

being used and shared, do we mind?

0:27:200:27:24

Is it about the transparency more

than anything is?

For me, I think

0:27:240:27:27

it's all about the transparency,

disclosure. Even things that have

0:27:270:27:31

come out that maybe Facebook tried

to suppress the news about this,

0:27:310:27:34

tried to deny... I think they played

this badly and their acted very

0:27:340:27:38

poorly. They probably felt they had

a defensive position because they

0:27:380:27:42

had changed their terms of services

in 2014, since all this happened

0:27:420:27:46

that Mayport, we have got of this,

we know how to manage this. I think

0:27:460:27:50

that response is what was poor.

I

want to bring up the front of

0:27:500:27:56

tomorrow's Times which has a story

saying advertisers are threatening

0:27:560:27:59

to pull out of Facebook. Even talk

of putting it on and on ethical

0:27:590:28:06

investment list, which clearly would

be a major blow to a company that

0:28:060:28:12

thought it was all about sharing the

good. Do you think they will or is

0:28:120:28:14

this just a threat?

I think it's

being considered and is a viable

0:28:140:28:20

threat. My prediction is it wouldn't

come to that. I think Facebook will

0:28:200:28:25

continue to insist it is a platform,

as was said earlier, it does need to

0:28:250:28:29

monitor and make sure that it is

adhering to its terms of service,

0:28:290:28:35

terms and conditions. I think

advertisers and even investors just

0:28:350:28:39

want to see Facebook leadership

leading from the front and being

0:28:390:28:44

more transparent and more genuine

and sincere about that.

Facebook is

0:28:440:28:48

a domain, the Giants, but this is an

industrywide problem, as far as we

0:28:480:28:52

can say?

Yes, and that is what he

was saying earlier, this is not just

0:28:520:28:58

Facebook. Every technology company

uses big data and that is one of the

0:28:580:29:02

promises of technology, that you can

have bespoke custom tailored

0:29:020:29:06

solutions.

I know you are not and

might as any kind of Facebook

0:29:060:29:11

spokesman. You left the company and

I'm wondering why, was a sense of

0:29:110:29:16

discomfort with what they did?

0:29:160:29:18

Well, my career is varied, before

Facebook I was in the bomber White

0:29:180:29:25

House, working on privacy and

Internet policy issues. -- Obama

0:29:250:29:31

White House. Long story short, I

wanted to have an impact in public

0:29:310:29:37

policy-making, and so I'm doing what

I'm doing out to try to think about

0:29:370:29:42

how this industry can reshape

itself, and mould into a space that

0:29:420:29:50

can limit the negative externalities

that we are seeing from political

0:29:500:29:58

misinformation to foreign

interference in elections, to hate

0:29:580:30:01

speech.

Yeah. Limit the negative is

a very delicate phrase...! Is that

0:30:010:30:09

where we are, can it come back now?

No, no, I think it is going to come

0:30:090:30:15

back, all of this is unprecedented,

all of this is unintentional, there

0:30:150:30:20

is consequence that come about of

having great market force and impact

0:30:200:30:25

but Mark Zuckerberg, with all of his

naivete, and reaction over the last

0:30:250:30:28

few days, he is well intended, he

wants to see the platform used for

0:30:280:30:33

good, wants to remain somewhat

neutral, and wants to have a

0:30:330:30:36

framework which can support the

monitoring and the policing of that.

0:30:360:30:42

But in an altruistic, a beneficial

way, I think that is the intention.

0:30:420:30:46

I don't think he started the company

thinking, this can be used as a

0:30:460:30:50

weapon or a tool, for nefarious

purposes.

Thank you very much, both

0:30:500:30:54

of you.

0:30:540:30:57

The war of words between Russia

and the UK is at boiling point

0:30:570:31:01

this evening,

0:31:010:31:04

as the Foreign

Secretary compared the likened

0:31:040:31:06

Russia's use of the forthcoming

World Cup to Hitler's use

0:31:060:31:08

of the 1936 Olympics.

0:31:080:31:09

Tomorrow's European summit was meant

to be dominated by Brexit

0:31:090:31:12

but the Prime Minister

has other ideas.

0:31:120:31:15

Our political editor

Nick Watt

is here.

0:31:150:31:19

Has the Foreign Secretary helped or

hindered? As the biographer of

0:31:190:31:22

Winston Churchill, Boris Johnson

will understand the acute

0:31:220:31:27

sensitivities of drawing parallels

between Nazi Germany and Russia, to

0:31:270:31:30

be fair, needed not draw and sacked

parallel, but in answer to a

0:31:300:31:34

question from the former Labour

minister, Ian Austin, the Foreign

0:31:340:31:37

Secretary said that it was certainly

right. -- he did not draw an exact

0:31:370:31:41

parallel. He said it is right to say

that they will promote Russian

0:31:410:31:51

interests at the World Cup,

anti-competitive way that Adolf

0:31:510:31:54

Hitler did that in the 1936 Perlin

Olympics. -- and he compares that in

0:31:540:31:58

the way. -- the Berlin Olympic. The

danger is that this was tenth in the

0:31:580:32:10

hand of EU countries who believe

that Britain has overreacted to the

0:32:100:32:15

attack in Salisbury, and there will

be in intervention at the summit

0:32:150:32:19

tomorrow, and she is essentially

going to reflect the UK view that

0:32:190:32:22

Russia is now a strategic enemy, and

not a strategic partner of the

0:32:220:32:29

European Union. She is going to say

that the Salisbury attack was an

0:32:290:32:33

attended murder, using an illegal

chemical weapon, indiscriminate and

0:32:330:32:37

it was reckless. And she will say

that this was a challenge from

0:32:370:32:42

Russia that is going to India for

years, and as one number ten

0:32:420:32:49

official has said, the Russian

threat now does not respect borders

0:32:490:32:52

and as such we are all at risk. --

endure for years.

Is she actually

0:32:520:32:56

making a call to arms, is there an

action she wants to see?

Prime

0:32:560:33:02

Minister will tell EU leaders that

by expelling 23 undeclared Russian

0:33:020:33:05

intelligence officers, the UK has

dismantled the Russian espionage

0:33:050:33:12

network, in the UK, and she will

essentially say it could be you

0:33:120:33:16

next, she will say, to the 27

leaders, this was the first use of

0:33:160:33:20

chemical weapons on European soil

since the Second World War. And

0:33:200:33:26

there is a feeling in Whitehall that

the Prime Minister will use this to

0:33:260:33:30

move up to the next step, move up to

a multilateral level, and

0:33:300:33:34

essentially indicates to EU leaders,

maybe you want to follow our

0:33:340:33:38

example, in basically expelling

spies from your country. Important

0:33:380:33:43

to say, in Whitehall, they are

saying, this is not a big

0:33:430:33:48

confrontation with Russia, we are

not looking at regime change.

Thank

0:33:480:33:52

you very much.

0:33:520:33:57

Being an ex-Prime Minister,

Finland's Alexander Stubb told me,

0:33:570:33:59

is the best job in the world.

0:33:590:34:01

He gives few interviews at home,

because every intervention he says,

0:34:010:34:03

seems like criticism

of the current administration.

0:34:030:34:05

He calls himself an Anglophile,

indeed his wife is British,

0:34:050:34:07

and always forged a strong

alliance

0:34:070:34:09

between Finland and

Britain within the EU.

0:34:090:34:11

Ahead of the European Summit

tomorrow,

0:34:110:34:12

I sat down with him this

afternoon to talk about Brexit,

0:34:120:34:19

loyalty, and whether it was right

0:34:190:34:26

for the EU commission president

to congratulate President Putin.

0:34:260:34:29

I began by asking whether he agreed

with Jacob Rees-Mogg who told me

0:34:290:34:32

on Monday that as far

as the Withdrawal treaty went,

0:34:320:34:34

the government had rolled over,

0:34:340:34:35

without even getting

its tummy tickled.

0:34:350:34:37

I disagree.

0:34:370:34:38

I actually think the negotiations

are going quite well for both sides.

0:34:380:34:41

Usually in the EU, you have

three faces: crisis,

0:34:410:34:43

chaos and sub-optimal solution.

0:34:430:34:44

We've had the crisis,

when Brexit basically happened,

0:34:440:34:46

the vote took place,

but I think that negotiations have

0:34:460:34:48

been very smooth and I think

there are two reasons for it -

0:34:480:34:51

one is called Michel Barnier

and the other is called David Davis.

0:34:510:34:54

So I'm quite optimistic.

0:34:540:34:55

You don't see a problem

with the Irish border?

0:34:550:34:58

Well, I see a problem with Brexit

and Irish border is a symptom of it,

0:34:580:35:01

but if you look at the whole

package,

0:35:010:35:04

they have a financial settlement,

0:35:040:35:08

which was the 7th of

December,

0:35:080:35:10

so everyone knows what the bill

is going to be like.

0:35:100:35:13

They have a transition deal,

0:35:130:35:14

everyone knows for how long the UK

will be in after it's out.

0:35:140:35:18

I'm going to bring you

back to the border...

0:35:180:35:20

On the Irish border,

0:35:200:35:22

that is basically the symbol

of the problem,

0:35:220:35:23

because if you're not

part of a customs union,

0:35:230:35:26

if you're not part of the single

market,

0:35:260:35:28

someone has to try

and square the circle,

0:35:280:35:31

and the way in which they've done it

in the negotiations so far

0:35:310:35:35

is to say there are three options:

0:35:350:35:36

One, put as part of a big deal.

0:35:360:35:38

Two, do some technological stuff

and three, have a backstop,

0:35:380:35:41

and they still have to negotiate

and work on that.

0:35:410:35:43

Can it be solved?

Oof, I don't know.

0:35:430:35:45

I've been in EU negotiations

for the better part of 20 years.

0:35:450:35:48

Everything

is solvable.

0:35:480:35:49

You always find a solution

at the end of the day.

0:35:490:35:52

Whether it's going to be

a solution that the EU

0:35:520:35:54

likes or the UK likes,

0:35:540:35:56

I don't know,

0:35:560:36:00

but I think it's very,

very important to protect

0:36:000:36:03

the integrity of the single market

0:36:030:36:04

and make sure that

there's no hard border.

0:36:040:36:06

Is there any solution

that is obvious to you?

0:36:060:36:08

Well, the obvious solution

is to start thinking

0:36:080:36:10

along these lines of,

0:36:100:36:11

you know, customs union or some

form of a customs union.

0:36:110:36:14

The obvious thinking is to start

using modern technology,

0:36:140:36:16

and that will be the final deal.

0:36:160:36:18

They've said that can

take a decade, right?

0:36:180:36:19

It can take a long time

but I don't know how long.

0:36:190:36:22

To a certain extent,

0:36:220:36:26

you could also say

that the negotiations

0:36:260:36:28

on Ireland are the pretext

also for the future

0:36:280:36:30

relationship of the UK.

0:36:300:36:31

I personally think,

as an Anglophile,

0:36:310:36:35

married to a Brit and children

with dual-nationality,

0:36:350:36:37

that it's very important that the UK

0:36:370:36:39

has a special place in or out

from the European Union

0:36:390:36:41

in the future.

0:36:410:36:42

Would you see financial services

being included in a trade deal?

0:36:420:36:46

Philip Hammond has spoken

0:36:460:36:47

of the dangers of fragmenting

the market in the City of London.

0:36:470:36:50

He said it doesn't go to Europe,

0:36:500:36:52

if you try and punish Britain,

0:36:520:36:57

it just goes to Hong

Kong or Singapore.

0:36:570:36:59

So isn't it important that financial

services is part of that?

0:36:590:37:03

I think Philip Hammond

0:37:030:37:05

has been one of the voices of reason

in this whole debate.

0:37:050:37:08

I look at financial services

0:37:080:37:10

as obviously part of one

of the four freedoms,

0:37:100:37:12

if you will.

0:37:120:37:13

The free movement of money,

to a certain extent,

0:37:130:37:16

and I agree that financial services

in Europe should not be fragmented,

0:37:160:37:18

but having said that,

and as a banker nowadays,

0:37:180:37:21

I also fully understand

0:37:210:37:28

that if you don't have passporting

rights,

0:37:280:37:31

there is going to be movement

of financial services elsewhere.

0:37:310:37:33

Financial services are not

going to escape London,

0:37:330:37:35

but they will be more centralised

on the continent proper.

0:37:350:37:38

You've called yourself

an Anglophile personally.

0:37:380:37:39

Yeah.

0:37:390:37:40

There's probably been no closer

friend to Britain, within the EU,

0:37:400:37:43

than Finland to the UK.

0:37:430:37:44

Do you feel now that those

royalties are torn?

0:37:440:37:46

Is it more important to you to see

the UK flourish

0:37:460:37:49

or to see the EU

flourish without us?

0:37:490:37:51

Well...

0:37:510:37:52

Obviously, first and foremost,

0:37:520:37:55

I'm a Finn,

0:37:550:37:58

secondly I'm an European,

0:37:580:37:59

and thirdly I'm married to a Brit

and an Anglophile.

0:37:590:38:03

So the wife comes third!

0:38:030:38:04

No, wife comes number

one because she's also

0:38:040:38:06

a Finnish national nowadays!

0:38:060:38:07

No, but the bottom line

is that obviously for me

0:38:070:38:09

Brexit is sad and I still,

and I say this with a sunken heart,

0:38:090:38:13

that it's a lose-lose proposition,

0:38:130:38:14

but at the same time I'm a pragmatic

Finn,

0:38:140:38:17

so we had to make the best of it.

0:38:170:38:19

So I belong to the camp

0:38:190:38:20

who is trying to help the UK

to alleviate the pain,

0:38:200:38:23

at the same time, get a good deal

for the European Union.

0:38:230:38:26

And then whatever happens

in domestic politics in the UK,

0:38:260:38:28

that's something that is completely

out of our or my reach.

0:38:280:38:32

I want to turn to the words

of Jean-Claude Juncker today.

0:38:320:38:35

He congratulated Putin on his win.

0:38:350:38:40

Broke with the protocol

of a lot of Western leaders.

0:38:400:38:42

Was it a mistake?

0:38:420:38:45

It's not my job as former

Prime Minister,

0:38:450:38:49

Vice President of the

European Investment Bank,

0:38:490:38:50

to give advice to

Jean-Claude Juncker.

0:38:500:38:52

Every institution and,

actually, every state,

0:38:520:38:57

takes that decision,

0:38:570:39:01

and I do understand

the sensitivities on a lot

0:39:010:39:03

of players in this game.

0:39:030:39:04

Would you have said that

if you had been in his role?

0:39:040:39:07

Well, it's a hypothetical

question, isn't it...

0:39:070:39:09

Come on.

..Because I'm not.

0:39:090:39:13

I try to be diplomatic and discreet.

He congratulated President Putin.

0:39:130:39:16

He said, "Congratulations on your

re-election, President Putin".

0:39:160:39:17

I think there are a lot of European

leaders and others as well

0:39:170:39:21

who have congratulated,

0:39:210:39:22

and it is part of protocol.

0:39:220:39:23

There is no denying that.

Obviously, was it my choice?

0:39:230:39:25

And remember, Finland has 1300

kilometres of border with Russia.

0:39:250:39:29

I would like to see a more open,

more international,

0:39:290:39:34

more transparent Russia

than what we have today.

0:39:340:39:42

When you add those together,

we have seen incursions;

0:39:450:39:47

we've seen cyber incursions,

0:39:470:39:52

we've seen electoral meddling.

0:39:520:39:53

Do you worry about the country

on your doorstep?

0:39:530:39:55

Of course I worry, and I think

that nowadays, actually,

0:39:550:39:57

the line between war

and peace is blurred.

0:39:570:39:59

We see cyber attacks,

0:39:590:40:00

we see usage of chemical

weapons or nerve gases,

0:40:000:40:02

we see media manipulation...

0:40:020:40:03

You're talking about Salisbury?

Yes.

0:40:030:40:05

We're seeing different types

of things happen all over the place,

0:40:050:40:09

and I think we have to sort of put

a foot down

0:40:090:40:12

and start discussing these things

0:40:120:40:17

and try to make them

unavoidable in the future.

0:40:170:40:20

Alexander Stubb, thank you.

Thanks.

0:40:200:40:26

The front pages of the newspapers

before we go, the Daily Telegraph

0:40:260:40:31

there are, blue "Brexit" passports

to be made in Europe, Tory fury as

0:40:310:40:34

the contract goes to a Franco Dutch

company, poised to win the contract

0:40:340:40:40

to make the iconic blue British

passport, after Brexit. --

0:40:400:40:43

Franco-Dutch. In the Guardian,

police take days to respond to 999

0:40:430:40:48

incidents as budget cuts bite. The

school should be dealt with within

0:40:480:40:53

one hour, but significant stress

from smashed budgets and increased

0:40:530:40:57

demand. And pay rise hope for

millions after the £4 billion NHS

0:40:570:41:03

deal was agreed, public sector

workers and the government today.

0:41:030:41:12

That's about it, but before we go,

0:41:160:41:21

today, fittingly on World Poetry

Day,

0:41:210:41:23

the auction house Bonhams had

a sale of the personal effects

0:41:230:41:26

of Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes.

0:41:260:41:27

Seeing the objects on offer,

it's hard not to summon up mental

0:41:270:41:30

images of their marriage,

in all its painful, poetic tragedy.

0:41:300:41:32

Here's a selection.

0:41:320:41:33

Goodnight.

0:41:330:41:35

# And maybe she'd take me to France

0:41:350:41:37

# Or maybe to Spain

and she'd ask me to dance

0:41:370:41:40

# In a mansion on the top of a hill

0:41:400:41:46

# She'd ash on the carpets

0:41:460:41:48

# And slip me a pill

0:41:480:41:54

# Then she'd get me

pretty loaded on gin

0:41:540:41:58

# And maybe she'd give me a bath

0:41:580:42:04

# How I wish I had a Sylvia Plath #.

0:42:040:42:06

Including an in-depth look at the Westminster Bridge attack one year on, Facebook's data problem, Theresa May to give Russia warning and Alexander Stubb on the EU summit.