Episode 5 Nolan Live

The black boy and funeral we look to the legacy of Martin McGuinness.

What do you think it should be? Statesman or gunman? Here is how we

reacted when police Constable Stephen Carroll was shot. There is a

duty and responsibility on me to lead from the front. I think I am

reading from the front and I suspect people will follow because these

people are traitors to Ireland. But the former IRA leader is taking many

secrets to his grave. Let me ask the question. I was a member of the IRA

and the IRA killed members of the RUC and that it is the

responsibility for being a member of the IRA then I have to accept the

responsibility, but that was in the past. I wonder if I am sitting here

looking at a teller. You can wonder all you want but I wonder what will

happen now and in the future. -- killer. Also tonight, Britain's most

senior child protection officer says not all people who download images

should be prosecuted. We debate that and meet a group personally hunting

down paedophiles. This one targeted a 14-year-old child. And what is he

saying? Just normal chatter, do you want to be my girlfriend?

Welcome, and I am sure you know that Martin McGuinness, who doesn't know

that he died yesterday at the age of 66, and immediately since his death

there has been an outpouring of opinion, strong divided opinion, as

to whether he should be remembered as a man of violence or of peace.

Martin McGuinness was a political visionary. He played an alarmist

part in delivering fundamental change in the society and in

transforming the relationships on this island and between Irelands.

History will judge and then all things history will have final say

and it is precisely because of his past and his involvement with the

IRA in the 70s and 80s and of his influence within that those circles

he was able to play the role he played in bringing the republican

movement towards choosing peaceful and democratic means, and because of

all of that I doubt we will see his like again. As the officer

commanding, can use safe whether the bombing is likely to stop in future

in response to public demand? I am a man of peace. I am a peaceful

person but I have been forced into believing and supporting the only

method which I feel can remove the British from my country.

We don't believe that winning elections and any kind of votes will

bring freedom to Ireland and at the end of the day it is the cutting

edge of the IRA that will bring freedom.

Today the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland have

taken responsibility for the future of Northern Ireland. It is what

people voted for and what has happened.

What is the current state of your relationship with the Deputy First

Minister? What it always was! No change. No surrender.

Do you think it will be well received if you give an apology

finally to people for what you did in the past? Imagine how the

unionist community would receive that. In terms of the past I am

sorry. The only fair thing to do, which I

have done today, was make it clear that I would unfortunately, even

though it breaks my heart... My heart lies with the people of Derry.

My goodness, what divided opinion that has been in Northern Ireland

over the last day or two. You have probably heard that on air, is that

actually an answer? J is a divided answer in itself, when you try to

assess Martin McGuinness. It is important to look at the whole

picture, and to be truthful, we should be careful of what we say but

we should be truthful. There are divisions of opinion in the Irish

Republic and there are different opinions if you look at GB

newspapers, a whole range of opinions. Some will emphasise more

the early years and the violence and the terrorism. Some will focus more

on the latter years with the political involvement, and they are

all part of the man. What is important is that for the sake of

the victims, we should not allow that part of the story to be written

out, and in some cases there has not been adequate focus on that. Let's

go on to the audience. Who wants to speak about this first tonight. I

think, and you even said that the various dart of the programme about

the legacy, and Michelle O'Neill constantly says it about Sinn Fein,

that legacy issues are to be discussed with the DUP, and I don't

think it's fair to forget Martin McGuinness's legacy and that he did

what he did. What is his legacy to you? I have the good fortune of

being born after the Good Friday agreement was signed so I am going

by what I have been called and have read, and to me, he was both sides

of the coin. On one side he was a terrorist and on the other a

peacemaker and that so I it. It is not one view or the other, that is

the way it is. You have very different impression? My dad was a

chief prison officer in 1983 and he was shot by the IRA as he left the

National Stadium in Dublin, shot in the back of the neck, and he was

paralysed and brain damaged and eventually passed away. The IRA

denied responsibility for the over 30 years until I basically badgered

Gerry Adams and to meeting the and we met an IRA commander and we got

an admission after 30 years that they had actually carried out the

attack. But on Martin McGuinness what is your view? We should never

deny the last few years of his life and the work that he did in

reconciling with political unionism but equally we should not and cannot

deny what went before. People say it is in the past and Martin McGuinness

used those terms in 2011, particularly down south, when

victims approached him and particularly in the media. On one

particular field he was very strident and seeing the victims

should move on, but the victims are living with the legacy of Martin

McGuinness today. I am thinking about friends who have a spare seat

at the table where loved ones would have been. They are living with

that. I guess for those who support Martin McGuinness they would say

there would be far more victims but for people like him? Absolutely, but

we cannot still lose sight and must look at the legacy in its totality,

not just a small portion. We need to look at it in the round and not

forget the people that are still suffering

And he said he was proud of his IRA past. For me, and people like me,

that means he was proud of killing my father. He didn't kill your

father, did he? No, but his organisation did. Go ahead, says. Do

we have a mike for this gentleman here? I think when we are talking

about Martin McGuinness, we need to put his life in context. Martin

McGuinness was born into a company that was occupied by the British,

Festival. -- born into a country. First of all, the war came to his

backyard. He didn't have a choice not to pick up a gun? When he

witnessed... Didn't have a choice to join an organisation that puts

people into a lorry? Unarmed people in front of his very AIDS. We need

to put this in context, what made Martin McGuinness do certain things.

-- unarmed people in front of him. He also left a state where the

Nationalists, their voice could be heard. Although Martin -- if we are

going to describe Martin's life, we need to be real about it and look at

the whole life. Nelson? There has been some revisionism in that Martin

McGuinness was already a member of the IRA long before bloody Sunday.

To say that he signed up because of what he saw on bloody Sunday would

be untrue. He was already a member before that. If you look at the

early years of the Troubles, and he has in the past admitted that he was

a member of the IRA in the early years of the Troubles, you're

looking back to events in 1972. Not so far away from Londonderry. Nine

people, including children, murdered by the IRA. We talk about

peacemakers. But you only need peacemakers when there are piece

rakers. In those early -- piece breakers. In the early years, the

IRA was culpable for an proudly boasted of some of the most heinous

crimes. If you look back to some other newspapers, more news was

there where they were boasting and eulogising. They carried out these

evil crimes, whether it was in Northern Ireland or the Republic.

Patricia? What I'm hearing tonight gives me a lot more hope. Austin has

been very eloquent and forthright in setting up the story of his life. I

acknowledge his loss and I'm very sorry for your loss. But what's

given me hope in what he has said is that he has forgiveness in his heart

for the people who did wrong to his family. Nelson brought up the issue

of the bombing. Yesterday I heard the brother of young Catherine

Aitken, Child killed in the bombing, talk about his road to forgiveness

and his road with Martin McGuinness. Let's not forget what we are saying

here in the last couple of days - victims and survivors are leading

the way and showing that this is how we heal our society. This is how we

create a new society where we have respect for one another. Martin

McGuinness's life has to be taken in the round. Every saint has a pass

and everything has a future. We are all in that boat. We cannot simply

say, let's forget the good that he did in terms of bringing Republicans

to the negotiating table. Arthur, you were the editor of the Derry

Journal. The Martin McGuinness that you knew in that community, who very

much came out many times to support, how did that contrast against what

has been said tonight? The balance that he supported as a IRA

supporter? Well, he has openly admitted that. He's always admitted

that. You've got to think of those days, Martin McGuinness came along

taking major risks. He decided at one stage in his life that there was

no way forward. That's why he went for the ballot box. He talked the

leading members of Sinn Fein and other Nationalists into getting them

to embrace his way of thinking. I think that's what's happening over

the last ten years. Do you think you should be admired for that? I didn't

they admired. I think you should be respected for what he's done. He's

achieved great things in his career. His had a remarkable career from

leaving school at 15 years of age to end up, in my opinion, an

international statesman. He is among his community in Derry the Nelson

Mandela of Ireland. He has taken this process so far forward, and I'd

like to remember that a lot of Unionists have actually admitted

that. Lets talk to the audience. I was just going to say, I don't know

how I feel. How disgraceful and how disrespectful we Sandy Row bonfires

were. Is that of Unionist opinion, that they celebrated the death?

Though there were some bonfires that were lit to celebrate the death of

Martin McGuinness. I'm not aware of that, but I can... You end up

getting into the whole role of what about it? Do you think it's

appropriate? If you would let me make my point without interrupting.

In any situation, always people who do things that would be better not

done. Is it appropriate, though? Simple question, yes or no. Was it

an appropriate response to the death of a father, husband and

grandfather. Just a minute, Patricia. Is a simple question. It's

a simple question, but your approach to this is inappropriate. The point

I was making before I was interrupted was that I can remember

when Margaret Thatcher 's eye. There were people who celebrated with

bonfires. Though these things do happen. Two wrong state make it

right. It's a simple question. THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER

Am I doing a job for you here... APPLAUSE

You can play to the audience all you want. It's disrespectful to victims,

to anybody. The truth of the matter is I wouldn't be doing it, I think

it's wrong. But it has happened in the past. You would condemn it?

These things shouldn't happen. For Margaret Thatcher, or anybody else.

It's wrong and that's my view. If you had given me the chance to

speak, I could have said that right at the beginning. If you want to

come back, go ahead. You, go ahead. Nelson, the same person who these

bonfires were lit for actually condemned and said bad things about

any bonfires lit on Margaret Thatcher's death. That may well be.

I have no knowledge about, to be honest. Go-ahead. I was just going

to say that I agree with this lad here that Martin McGuinness in fact

condemned people eulogising Margaret Thatcher's death. I think that the

point the gentleman made earlier on about Martin McGuinness, I don't

think... He never denied his past. As Ian Paisley Junior, whom I think

a lot of members of the DUP could take a lead from, I think he was

very respectful, very measured. Martin McGuinness was? No, Ian

Paisley Junior. Speaking about Martin McGuinness. He said it wasn't

about a person's past. It was where they are now. And Martin McGuinness

has committed over 20 years to mainstream political thinking. And

he brought people along, as Tony Blair said. He brought people along.

Mrs Foster. Should Arlene Foster go to Martin McGuinness's tunable? She

should. She should go because she was the joint first Deputy Minister

with Martin McGuinness. Today instalment I thought she spoke very

well. Do you think she should go, Austin? As leader of unionism, as

the First Minister, I think she should go. If there was political

trappers, I think that might be extremely difficult for her. I don't

know if there is going to be paramilitary trappers, I'm not aware

of that. If there wasn't, I don't see any reason why she shouldn't go.

We have no indication that one will be any trappings. There was an

article that there will not be. So I don't think that is any stumbling

block. I think Arlene Foster, Austin is absolutely right. She should lead

by example as the former First Minister, as the leader of the

largest party. And as Martin McGuinness's leader in government, I

think she ought to go. I think it would create a very positive sense

of goodwill in the current talks process if she did. Should Arlene

Foster go to the funeral tomorrow? Well, talking about hope, I entirely

agree. As soon as Austin said about forgiving the past, I couldn't be...

Someone who is too long to have lived through the -- as someone who

is too young to have lived through the Troubles, that's remarkable to

me. I think although we have two C Martin McGuinness as someone who did

try to take the gun out of politics, was also having held one himself. To

say this and to savour both views are being held imbalance does give

me hope as a young person in Northern Ireland. And I think seeing

Arlene Foster there at the funeral would be entirely appropriate. It

shows the balance of the two parties now. The DUP are still in a

position. The public position at the moment is that they are undecided.

They're thinking about Arlene Foster going, or not going and are making

up their mind. What would it mean to you if she meant? Good or bad, what

do you think? Where would we be ten years ago if Martin McGuinness

didn't stand up for the people of Ireland and get this peace process

going? Can you understand, Patricia, you're a former victims

commissioner, why Arlene Foster would not possibly want to go to the

funeral of a man who led an organisation which tried to kill her

father? Absolutely. Of course I can understand. That's a natural and

human reaction. But the sad and unfortunate truth is that we all do

things... Let me start that again. It's not sad, nor unfortunate. But

we are in a process of building trust and peace, and coming to a

sense of reconciliation within our communities. Martin McGuinness went

to Windsor Castle and shook the hand of the Commander in Chief of the

British Army that has killed 14 citizens, 14 of his friends and

neighbours on Bloody Sunday. That was a huge gesture from Martin

McGuinness to make. It should be reciprocated. For Arlene Foster to

do something of this nature, to go to the funeral, that is a huge

gesture of reconciliation and are trying to put the past... Trying to

reconcile our past with one another. Lady in the glasses, go ahead. I

want to say that by taking the position she has taken politically,

I think she has a responsibility to go to one of her closest colleague's

tunable. -- closest colleagues peel funeral. What does that say about

her father? She has shown commitment to Northern Ireland by taking that

on. But that comes out of her past. Her interest in politics comes out

of her personal experience. But the commitment she has made, she really

has a responsibility to go. Arthur, do you think she should go?

Absolutely. It would do her no harm whatsoever. I think it's very

important that she comes. After all, former President Clinton will be

there. Mr Blair will be there. The Catholic statement have released a

statement saying there will be no paramilitary trappings. What message

do you think it would send out if essentially the leader of unionism

went? I think it's very important because it would send out a message

that politics is not dead. I think it's a situation where they would

appreciate what's happened in Derry. We have a grieving family and

community. A man is going to be put to rest after doing so much, in

their opinion, over the last ten years. We do think in the interest

of power-sharing and equality, it's very important that Mrs Foster be

present and respectfully present, that is, at his funeral tomorrow.

Backing to the audience, front Row. At the end of next week, if she

can't even go to the funeral. Is that even possible? How can you

share power with somebody for the best part of a decade and then not

do that? Because presumably you could argue that going to the

funeral of Mr McGuinness would be a very personal gesture from Arlene

Foster. She can do business with Sinn Fein, can't she?

let me interrupt you. Arlene Foster, and I don't recall if it was today,

but I certainly have a statement in which she said she had been in touch

with Martin McGuinness during his illness. She has shown great

compassion and humanity in doing that and she needs to keep following

it up. It is the decent Christian thing to do, to go to the funeral of

her colleague. On top of that statement, Arlene Foster is the de

facto leader of the community. It has to be a political decisions

rather than personal. You have to take the personal out of it. A lot

of people would take issue with the president down south going to it but

he is the elected head of state. Arlene Foster is the political head

of state up here so from a political perspective she probably needs to

go. Go ahead. Arlene Foster has to put differences aside to lead the

country forward and it shows no good will to move forward especially

after the death. And go ahead. Martin McGuinness did the hard work

in bringing the two parallels closest together and if he went to

Ian Paisley's humans funeral itself, and if Arlene Foster didn't call it

would widen the gap again. Martin McGuinness has always said his heart

is in the Bogside. Our correspondence is an Derry this

evening overlooking where the funeral will take place tomorrow.

What is the middle looking like? The mood is pensive and there is a sense

of anticipation and it is very quiet on the streets behind me but the

picture was very diffident earlier this evening when hundreds filed

through to the McGuinness family home and it was the same yesterday

and it gives you a sense of the scale of the numbers we're talking

about. Mobile signs around the corrected on the outskirts of the

city directing the traffic. We expect the signs to be in place

tomorrow because thousands are expected to descend tomorrow but it

is sure to be one of the biggest funerals the city has ever

witnessed. And any indication yet as to who will go to the funeral? We

already know the former American President Bill Clinton will be there

and the Irish president Michael Higgins will be in attendance as

well the Taoiseach. We know Mike Nesbitt, the Ulster union as, and

the other political leaders in Stormont, but still no official word

as to whether or not Arlene Foster will be there, but the feeling

tonight is that Arlene Foster will be in attendance tomorrow because a

lot of people are looking to her speech today and her tribute as in a

sense clearing the way for her attendance because people will find

it very strange if she said what she said today and didn't show up at the

funeral tomorrow afternoon, and a lot of people also take the view

that it will set the right tone for the negotiations being had at

Stormont. Another couple of comments from the audience. Go ahead. I was

going to say that you have to remember Martin shook hands with the

Queen which was a massive symbol of hope and the least Arlene Foster

could do it attend the funeral. Certainly the vast majority of

people I have gone to in this audience feels that she should go.

Absolutely. Interesting. I want to point out that they were able to go

to the funeral of someone deeply involved with the UVF so why not

someone who has done much for the peace process. What would it say

symbolically to US she went? It would see the recognised what he did

for the peace process and he has done a lot recently and they should

recognise that. The Queen sent the message to Martin's family giving

condolences. What has Arlene Foster got to lose? What is the problem

with are showing up to a funeral? As we conclude this part of the

programme, we will start with you. How would you sum up Martin

McGuinness? I would sum him up as a great leader, one who has played an

important role in removing guns from politics. I think he leaves a legacy

that future generations will not fear getting blown up, they move on

with a good power-sharing assembly with equal rights the priority. We

cannot deny the good that Martin McGuinness dead in the last number

of years. I feel we must not and cannot be naive the fact that he

went to his grave with a lot of secrets particularly in relation to

the Frank Hegarty case and others and we should look at the legacy in

totality and not forget the past because there are people today are

with the past. We must also look at the last few years and take it in

conjunction with everything else and take Martin McGuinness's legacy in

its totality. How would you sum up Martin McGuinness? Clearly he played

a very significant role in Northern Irish political life over the last

few years. There is that other part of the story and there are tonight

people who are still hurting because of the activities of the Provisional

IRA. Bloody Friday, Donegal Street, the atrocities already mentioned,

those are an important part of the story, and it would be a tragedy if

the victims has suffered as a result of those incidents and atrocities

were to be ignored and marginalised. They need to be very much in our

thoughts and focus tonight. Patricia. How would I sum up Martin

McGuinness? As a devoted husband and father, a very proud grandfather and

fishermen, loving dog walk around for my part a good friend. Someone

who supported my family in difficult times and I will remember his

kindness and compassion. At 2pm tomorrow the funeral mass for the

late Martin McGuinness will be celebrated in Saint Columbus Church.

Please give our panel a round of applause. Right. Let's move on

tonight. The NSPCC has reported recently that the numbers of people

recorded as an possession of child abuse images has gone up by 70% in

Northern Ireland in the last year alone. However, one of the most

senior police officers and UK has said that because of a lack of

resources we should be not be prosecuting all those who view child

abuse images and those not judged to pose a physical risk should be

arrested and given a caution and rehabilitation instead. Maybe you

find that abhorrent, they thought we would not be aggressively going

after every single person who chooses to exploit and a damaged

children by watching these images for sexual gratification. We will

debate that in a moment but first I want you to meet a group who say

they are doing some of the police's work for them. They are posing

online for children to smoke the paedophiles out and then they

confront them. Can I have a word with you please? I

can tell you at this point of time you are being detained. For planning

to meet a 13-year-old girl called Jessica, yes? No comment. That's

fine. Do you think it's acceptable to be doing what you've been doing?

You know she was 13? What about your five friends? They

wanted to come and have sex with this child? The 13-year-old girl.

Yes? He was coming to meet her round was going to be sticking his hand up

her dress. That man was subsequently convicted and the footage was shot

by the vigilantes themselves. They came to Belfast to explain to me why

they spend their time hunting paedophiles, you may find some of

this disturbing. Basically, we go online and create profiles of young

males and females on a wide range of social media websites. We remind

them of the age and that they get sick shall we will attend the

meeting. I am trying to understand if you are in trapping people who

would not otherwise do this. We are not really in trapping people. They

come to us and that is their choice to become sexual and their choice to

top to that child. It is their choice to do run-up to the meeting

place. What do you say to them when you meet them? We phoned the police

and once we know the unit has been dispatched then we go over and

basically approached them about their behaviour and what they have

been doing online. What gives you the right to do this? We are not the

police, we are just exercising our right as citizens and we see the

problem with government not giving enough money to the police to be

able to do this so you have to be the change that you want to see in

society. But you are suggesting to me that this is so prolific that

every single time you try this, there are many people attempting to

groom children. That happens on a regular basis. What is regular, not

every time you go on? Yes, we get messages every time we go on. And

how quickly after you post to the comment? Ten seconds. It couldn't be

that prolific! It is pretty bad. As soon as you go on, it is just

message after message and I have an application on my phone with a good

30 people chatting. A good 30, 40 people. Chatting to children? What

they think is a child. You have that in your pocket now? Can you sure

what are some of the conversation, what age do they think they are

talking to? This one thinks he is talking to a 14-year-old. And what

is he saying? This is further down, just normal conversation, do you

want to be my girlfriend? I like how old you are and I promise I won't

tell if you don't. I could get in lots of trouble. And that is

happening right now? Yes, just over the last few days. Wish you were

here, I would love to kiss you, I am being naughty. He said about how it

would feel to touch you. I said, really? He said, is it bad that I

think about that? And I said I don't know. He said would you touch

yourself to start with? And what will you then do next with that

person? We will go and confront him. It is just shocking, horribly

disgusting. I realise there would be anyone in the studio tonight or

indeed at home who want have been shocked by that but let's remember

what our debate is tonight. Chief Constable Simon Bailey, one of most

senior police officers in the area of child protection in the UK, has

said that we should not prosecute everyone who they believe are

viewing child abuse images online. That means people downloading child

abuse imagery. Those who are not judged to pose a physical risk

should be arrested and given a caution and they instead. Let's just

get your immediate reaction. I think he has shaped the message in a very

poor away. If he is saying there are too many she should be demanding a

greater level of investment in fender Management but that is

endemic of the fight, and I say this as a former police officer myself,

policing in England most definitely has been politically neutered, so

they won't commit and demand what they need from government but will

simply try to divert the conversation in a way they feel is

clever, but it is not. We are now concentrating on this instead of

focusing on victims and providing support. But what about what he is

saying is that if the RSS does not posing a risk of going out and

physically harming a child, prioritise the these authors to

those who are wanting to meet up with children. What he actually said

was that it is someone who has looked at a low-level image. Some of

the worst offenders get off looking at child care catalogue so we have

to be careful. We have to be careful. Where someone has been

identified and held to account they will be coming back out so there has

to be a mechanism to manage that. Managing the risk is one thing but

talking in terms with it is something really need therapy is

sending the wrong message and will not do terry predator from going

online tonight. The thought we are going to commit resources and track

them down regardless is going to the terror of them and by others to seek

different avenues. I agree with what Jim is saying, we

need to have a different approach to dealing with this stuff. You mean by

Chief Constable? Yes, I do. We need a multifaceted approach. We simply

can't be simply responding to what there. We have do have a

preventative measure. Why can't we go after every single person,

paedophile is actually the word, that is looking at images of

children? The first thing I would say is that if people are looking at

images, they have to be prosecuted under the law. That goes without

saying. However, we also have to prevent people from looking at it.

We can't rely on a criminal justice response. There has to be more

happening up front. The happy bowl -- there has to be more happening.

What about those who do not pose a risk of physically abusing a child?

In other words, just let them off with Anna caution -- just let them

off with a caution? I don't think that, but there are other things we

can do in responding to these people than just a criminal justice

response. Have you got enough resource to go after every single

person in Northern Ireland? I think this has got to be contextualised.

In England and Wales, 50% of Crown Court timers dedicated to

investigations of this type. That's not where we are in Northern

Ireland. The team of the PSNI have protected the resources in this

field. To illustrate, we would have carried out around 38-40 searchers

looking for sexual abuse imagery that has been downloaded and viewed.

In this financial year, and there are a number of days left, but in

this financial year we will hit around 140, possibly 150 searches.

That shows the level of resource dedicated to this. Is it your

understanding that there are thousands of people, they're saying

tens of thousands of people, in England, across the water. That

thousands of people here every day, do you feel, searching for this type

of images? I think those vigilantes came at it from a particular

perspective. The first thing I would say is the appropriate agency to

safeguard and attack defenders and make people safe in this part of the

world is law enforcement, the police. The vigilantes can't do

that. They don't gather evidence that is admissible. They may well

talk about contacting the police on their way there, but they don't know

what else the police already done. So you don't support what they're

doing? No. But they're finding paedophiles and handing them over.

If they have information, the thing to do is to pass that information on

to the police. But they're doing what you are doing, presumably,

which is their posing as children to smoke these people out. I'm not

going to get into what the police do or don't do, but they shouldn't

assume they know exactly what the police are doing. Secondly, what

they delay acting in that way is they potentially alert the

paedophile offender to their behaviour without a criminal

justice. Jim? There are insufficient resources. Since 2012, child abuse

investigation has gone up by 80%. Police resources in the UK have gone

down by about 30 2000. I don't support vigilantes, but I think they

teach us a lesson. We could use volunteers are members of the public

to properly recruited, vetted and trained who can go in and volunteer

on a Wednesday or Thursday night to do that job. Do you support what.

Just -- do you support what Dark Justice do? Know, but people within

the community could come in as volunteers, have their character

checked, have been properly vetted, and let them come in three or four

nights a week to a police station where they will be properly

supervised. I'm talking to a number of forces at the moment about how

this could be done. Simon Bailey says with pride, we are arresting

400 a month. That's less than seven per police force, per month across

the country. Lets see what we think. I know you're saying that these

people are posing a risk. But if you're not going for people looking

at the photos, there should be no deterrent and it should only serve

to potentially encourage people to look at these images. I know you are

saying they are low risk, but what is to say that by letting you do

these things... I'm not saying they're low risk. But before you're

saying you don't want to waste the resources. There is the problem with

Simon Bailey's message. It starts in the wrong place. The only person who

will be happy about the way he framed the messages the paedophiles

sitting thinking there is too few of them, they're not going to catch me,

and if they do, I'm not well, semi for therapy. I have a 14-year-old

daughter. Daily she brings me on social media to men who are trying

to send her images of herself nude. Daily, I get these. And the

police... Have you reported it to the police? The police have said

they don't have enough time. It's getting too much.

The police in Northern Ireland have said that? Yass. You are telling the

other mother there are paedophiles trying to get access to our

daughters, and the police are telling you that they don't have

enough time? Yes. You want to respond to that, George Clark. I

don't recognise that comment. If the police come forward to the police,

we should recognise that. Perhaps to constantly directly. If somebody is

attempting to groom a child and asking that child to send an

indecent images, that's a matter for us. I'm told there's not enough

people, or time. How recently were you told this? A month ago. By a

police district in Northern Ireland? Yes. That's shocking, if that's

true. I'm not disputing that. I would give you details, but she...

Will you share this information with George after the programme?

Absolutely. Yes, sir, go ahead. First of all, Dark Justice, I think

they're doing a great job. Macro APPLAUSE

Second of all, I think we should be doing more for the kids, educating

them all. I think they should be able to recognise a situation where

they are in danger and we should be doing something like that. Are you

not worried about vigilantes essentially setting themselves up as

investigators? Yeah, 100%. But you're supporting them doing it? I

support what they're doing and the idea, but I also agree that it

should be supervised, maybe a police station. It's just that someone is

making the effort to go out there and do it. The third thing is to say

that if these paedophiles, because they are still paedophiles, aren't

posing a physical risk, I think... If there is not an adequate

punishment or persecution, it will happen more often and it will lead

to worse offences, not just dealing indecent images, they will do worse

and worse things. Something does need to be done. But I do think it's

the job for the police to take action, and not members of the

public. Keirin? I would say something does need to be done. I

would go back to the previous gentleman's comments about education

and I would say we need to do more education in schools and ingenuity

is around what sexual abuse is common parent should be looking out

for, so that people know what the warning signs are and what the

triggers. And I would also say that while we've been talking a lot about

the police tonight, Internet service providers have a role in this.

Google, Facebook have a role in this as well. How come they haven't shut

a lot of it down, or have they? Can they do more? Facebook is in a

different place than it was ten years ago. I went to Facebook ten

years ago and have the fight over them putting a button into the

environment. They're not where they should be, but their algorithms are

better. I've just come from a school tonight and I think education

empowering parents, children and teachers is important. But actually

the worst sights on Facebook. There are sites online when you can

actively talk to strangers, and people are going there. So we get

lost in looking. The top five sites that represent a real risk to

children on sites that will roll off the tongue of any parent in this

room. For my position, we need to begin from an active deterrent where

paedophiles go online in fear of being captured. At the minute, that

doesn't happen, so we need greater investment in the police. We need to

empower local citizens to help. We need stronger offender management

once they caught. Do you need more money? For this, in this area. How

prolific is it in Northern Ireland? It's difficult to say how prolific

it is anywhere, because it's difficult to monitor the Internet.

That's a reality. The key point, and we've talked a lot about education,

the key point is educating people to come forward to get help when they

detect this happening. To be an active parent, to be involved in the

circumstances described in coming to you in being able to tell you what

has happened. That's important and powerful because that's how we get

into those sites and understand what's happening in places other

than where we might imagine. But we do know, Simon Bailey has said there

were 100,000 people in any given time in the UK downloading indecent

images of children. In an exercise in 2012, there were between

50-60,000. In England and Wales of 2014 reconvicted the same number of

people for drunken driving. The numbers aren't too big. It's got to

be about focus, investment and priorities. Until we treat those

people that view images, and use them to sexually satisfy themselves,

because that is what this is about, until we treat them as a real threat

and not a novelty on the Internet, we've got a problem because those

are the people that are working in every walk of life. If you look at

people in the recent abuse cases, we could have saved many of them years

ago if we would have had the technology we have today. I think

it's important to come back and say what Simon Bailey is saying is he

starting a debate in English and Welsh context. He starting a

discussion about the appropriate way to respond. It's not the way we're

responding in Northern Ireland this moment in time. It's not the way we

propose to respond. We intend to continue along the line of rest,

investigation. At this moment in time, police policy will continue.

Thank you, very much indeed. Ladies and gentlemen, give our panellists a

round of applause. If you've been affected by any of

the issues raised in tonight's programme, details of organisations

offering information and support with sexual abuse are available at

our website. Right, now, my next guest was once

part of one of the most successful girl groups of all time. The Spice

Girls! She has gone on to have a solo career under her own name

according to macro number one hits. She has recently released their

seventh album. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mel C.

APPLAUSE Hello, there. Hallow! Lovely to see

you. Lovely to see you. We don't have much time, such is the nature

of a live show. But you are going to sing for us tonight. I am! I wanted

to know is life better out of the big group now, or is it the same? At

this time in my life, it's better. Everything I did with the Spice

Girls was amazing. I think it's very much a young person's game. We had

no responsibilities, we went around the world. Our lives were our own.

But I have a family now, so being able to do things... We saw the

things that One Direction were under. Are you under that pressure?

It was incredible, it was fairy tale. But there was a dark side.

What's that, earning millions? That is one of the wonderful things, but

you are away from your home and family. He read people'sopinions

about you, which we all do these days. But back then... Surely you're

bigger than that when you're in one of the most powerful groups in the

world? You don't read Twitter and Facebook and care, do you? That's

why I feel for bands like One Direction, because there were no

escape. At least it was only the tabloids being nasty about Austen.

But we were young. You have a dream to be a pop star, but in your early

20s you don't know who you are. What is life like now? I think it's

pretty normal. I've got a little girl, she's incredible. I love to do

the school will have a normal life with her. But I still have the

opportunity to do music and play live. I'm back on the 12th of April

playing Mandela Hall and I'm in Dublin on the 13th. It's just

wonderful to still be making music, still going out and playing live.

Best of both worlds. My goodness, think of some of the people you've

met. Nelson Mandela being one of them.

Compare that to picking your kid up on the school run. How wonderful to

be able to do both. That is a lovely thing to say. Tell us about this new

album? It is quite different, more electronic than anything in the

past, still very much a pop record than my voice is familiar to

millions but it is nice to do a new single. This is a lovely song you

are going to sing and it is ending our series. Very excited to have an

opportunity to say thanks to you, and I mean that from watching the

CDs and all we have done over the years. We will be back in the autumn

but they are back tomorrow morning, the television might be off. It is

9am and the Nolan show with a big show today. They have to uphold our

laws. You have to tell me what you mean by that. I am incensed. Use

near a bit over his car? It is the chance to tell me at home what you

have to say. Whatever you think, see it on the

Nolan Show. That is it for this evening and the series and playing

us out, the former Spice Girl Mel C with this beautiful song.

Don't give up, don't lose faith. Time has faded and time goes on. Can

we hold on? Hold on. Hold this love. Hold this love.

Questions answered, darkness clears. Eyes wide open, facing all our

fears. Hope is born. Can we stayed together and welcome a new dawn. I

don't want to walk, I don't want to walk away! I don't want to walk. I

want you to stay. Can we hold on? Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Hold on

to this. Can we hold on? Hold on? Hold onto this love.

I never wanted to let you down. So the conversation circles around. We

could leave it all and walk away. The star of social, I am asking you

to hold onto this love. Hold on, hold on. Hold on to this love. Can

we hold on? Hold on. Hold onto this love.

Can we hold on? Hold on? Hold on, hold onto love.