Britain on the Fiddle Panorama

Fraud and cheating costs us billions, money that could be spent

on schools, hospitals and those in genuine need effectively stolen

away. Tonight's Panorama exposes those who're abusing the system to

fund their lifestyles. Meet the man sailing the seas on

his yacht while claiming Incapacity Benefit. This is a Saturday evening

sipping my gin back there... Meet the man on benefits driving a

Bentley and running a posh Meet the man suspected of using one

fake name to get benefits after using another one to stay in the

country. So you and him are the same person? Got there at last.

Excuse me... Meet the people who block off disabled parking bays

using permits that aren't theirs. No, I had to go the other side...

You nearly run us over... All those caught claiming disability benefits

but spending their days playing sport. Fraud Cos us all much-needed

cash. Each time fraud takes place, it means that public expenditure

reductions have to be more painful, more jobs have to go. Mr Sussams, a

couple of questions... Swindling from those who need it most.

�22 billion a year, according to the latest research - that is how

much fraud and error costs the Government. A significant chunk of

that is benefit fraud, a conthat's so common, many of us know someone

who's at it. Tonight, we'll spend time with those trying to catch

them, chasing people they believe are claiming what's not theirs.

Like this man, Graham Axford, Croydon Council think he's lied to

get a flat and gets Incapacity Benefit he may not be entitled to.

Andrea Cordery works for the council and is investigating him.

Well, this case was referred to us in about 2009 and we've been

investigating for quite a while. so he's on disability benefit

through your council? Yes. So he's getting disability, cash for that?

Yes. But what, he's got a property in France? And also we discovered

that he owns a yacht. He's got a yacht? Yes. And it's been said that

he's been heard boasting about travelling around the world in his

yacht. Where's he been boasting? a local pub.

So, the council think Graham Axford lives a life subsidised by benefits

he shouldn't have. Well, we want to see for ourselves. This is where

the council believes he's been leading a secret life. He has his

flat in Croydon, but here in Normandy, they think he has another

home. Extraordinary as it may sound, a 42 foot yacht too. We are in

northern France and this is the town of Carentan, very pretty. This

is where he think that Axford's boat is. So it's time that I had a

We hear the boat is out of the water in a repair yard. OK, so this

is the boat yard just at the back of the marina. And there is

Axford's boat, crumb bet 250 it's called. It's -- Crumpet Too it's

called. It's here because it's for sale. I'm quite keen to have a look

inside. The plan, now we've found it, is to get an undercover

reporter to go and meet Mr Axford and have a chat with him about his

boat. Maybe make a bid for Crumpet Too. Our undercover reporter chats

to a guy in the boat yard who knows Graham Axford. He's happy to show

us around and help us aboard Crumpet Too. It's a fine boat and

it's big, 42 foot long, space for six people on board. It's got a

radar for long distance navigation and a short wave radio. This is a

yacht that looks like it's done some serious miles. The cabin is

well lived in. Not bad for a man who's also got his council flat and

benefits in Croydon. The boat might look a bit tatty, but done up, it's

an ocean-going yacht worth �60,000. So we've seen his boat, next we'll

need to try and meet the owner. Nationally, fraud is on the rise.

The latest research suggests that since the downturn hit three years

ago, fraud has shot up by 30%. That means more pressure than ever on

those paid to catch cheats. Kiri Tharan has been an investigator for

25 years and leads a team in Hillingdon in London tackling those

who use false identity documents to claim benefits. It's an

increasingly common way of cheating the system and Kiri is worried

about the high number of cases involving fake passports. That's

the fake passport is it? One of them. It looks and feels real,

doesn't it? Yes. It's not real. to you? No. But you could see how

it would trick people? Yes. What do you think about this supply of

fraudulent passports. What is your hunch? Someone must be making a lot

of money out of it. Do you think it's something they could have done

between them, do you think? it's a lot more organised. Why not?

This is the ninth or tenth case we've come across.

A few days later, and an early start for Kiri's team. Working with

the police, they're about to raid a suspect's house. We believe he's on

income support and is claiming carers' allowance for an elderly

lady who is around 90. We've got to take a bit of care there. What we

are looking to do is find any identity documents. If we don't

find anything in that name, we'll look at any other documents at the

address. Anybody got any questions...

These early morning raids have become a regular occurrence for

Kiri and the team. Can you open the door? It's the police...

The man who lives here is suspected of using a fake Passport to Get

benefits. You are under arrest for presenting a false Passport to The

council. Have you got the passport on you? They have a warrant to

search through his possessions. They find the pass ports and start

making checks. The -- passports. Your grandmother lives at this

address, yes. How long you been The arrested man is supposed to be

caring for a 90-year-old woman, but she's not here. He's not happy and

he doesn't want to answer questions You don't have to explain anything

to me. Do you have a number for the French Embassy? I think we need to

give them a ring. It turns out the passport is legal, but digging

around, it looks like the old woman, who the man is claiming carers'

allowance for, isn't even living here. I don't think this room at

least looks like it's occupied. I don't think she has lived here for

some time. The question is, where is she? It also looks as though

benefits with being claimed in the old lady's name both here in

Hillingdon and in the Netherlands. That's interesting. Although there

was nothing wrong with that passport, the council are checking

records in Holland. They plan to re-interview the arrested man. He

says he's done nothing wrong. Kiri is still suspicious. In this case,

he's claiming for someone else who hasn't been living in this country.

That's my suspicion. We'll find out when he get to the office by

getting in touch with the Dutch authorities. We are looking at

large sums of money here. We've got Housing Benefit, council tax

benefit. He's also in receipt of carers' allowance. On the

department and Work and Pensions side, we've got income support. I

believe there's a Pension Credit element there and probably

attendance allowance. There's quite a lot of money involved here.

But why should we care if people do claim a few benefits they shouldn't

have? Well, the cost to the taxpayer of benefit, Tax Credit

fraud and council house scams is a staggering �4 billion a year. Cash

thought to be disappearing at record levels often undetected and

unchecked. Jim Gee used to be Head of Counter-fraud for the NHS and

now advises ministers. Fraud is important. It undermines the

quality of the Public Services that people pay their taxes to get and,

each time fraud takes place, it means the public expenditure

reductions have to be more painful. More jobs have to go. Can you give

us a sense of the scale? estimated that �22 billion of

public expenditure was being lost to fraud and error. That's way more

than people imagined? Yes, indeed. That's because we applied the best

available data. We are confident in that figure. Across the whole of

Government, that's billions lost to us all. In Croydon, investigator

Andrea cord I have doing her bit to get some of it back -- Cordery.

She's on her way to Graham Axford's flat, the guy with the boat and the

other life in France. He's been on Incapacity Benefit since 1996 after

he injured his back in a motorcycle accident. Andrea wants to see if

he's still entitled to it. We are not convinced that what he's told

us about his disability is true. So if we can see him without him

seeing us, we should be able to see what his natural behaviour would be.

It's the sort of thing where someone tells you they've got a bad

back and can't walk properly, we might be lucky enough to see them

Surveillance takes time, but she needs the evidence. I'm trying to

see his movements really. We know he drives, we know he sails.

Bearing in mind that he is in receipt of Incapacity Benefit,

based on a bad back, it will be interesting to see him jumping on a

It's a long day and no Graham Axford. This is one of the boring

days. Twoun Mr Axford today! -- one to Mr Axford today. It's not just

the persistent or high value cheats that the council is chasing. The

low level stuff can cause just as much distress. Chris Norris is

leading this team from Hillington Council out to catch the blue badge

offenders, people who park in disabled bays when they've no right

to be there. Where's your mother today? She's at home but I'm just

going to do her banking. You are not allowed to do that. You have to

have the person with you. I'm going to have to caution you, Sir. You do

not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not

mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.

Anything you do say may be given in evidence. I'm going to have to

seize this blue badge from you today. OK. You will be called in

for an interview under caution. problem. So you keep hold of that

now? Yes, we are seizing this badge today. Thank you for your time.

What do you think about what's just been said to you now? I'm doing a

bit of banking for my mum who's got the badge and... You are not giving

me a ticket are you? Yes. I'm moves it nous. I'm not parked, the

engine's still warm. Seems a bit daft to me. Why did you think you

could park here? You are fit and well? Doing business for my mum

who's not fit and well. But you are, you can park anywhere. If you park

here, that means somebody else can't park here who is fit and

well? Yes, I suppose you are right It's not just blocking baize.

Nicking disabled spaces deprives councils of parking fees at a time

when cash is tight. What did you do? He's using someone else's badge.

Why were you parking down here? have a disabled badge. You're not

disabled are you? My wife is. I wasn't aware of this rule. You were

beeping that man, who was disabled, trying to park in a way. I wasn't

aware of this rule. You must know that you can't... I wasn't aware of

this rule. You only parked here so you could get near to the shops.

There's nothing wrong with you. You're blocking it for other people.

I wasn't aware of this rule. Don't patronise me all right.

The chance of free parking and a short walk to the shops, it seems

the temptation to use a blue badge unlawfully is irresistible. So, you

could park anywhere and walk same as anywhere else? Yeah. There's the

problem right there. Too many people park here until a warden

comes. That's not fair on genuine badge holders. I'll take my glasses

off. I will move my car. I did politely say I would move my car if

somebody came round. You did. I'm not disputing that. There you go.

While some of those who get challenged are quick to kick off,

there are plenty that support Chris's team. What do you think of

these guys trying to make sure people have the right badges?

brilliant. Well done. You're doing a good job. What do you think?

them all mate, good job, mate. them all? Yeah, yeah. I think what

people don't get when she sneak in here and try and get an easy

parking space is how upset the people who get blocked out feel.

Because they need these spaces and if they can't use them, they're a

bit stuck. This low level cheating is all part of a bigger problem,

according to one of Britain's leading fraud researchers. A lot of

people rationalise they're doing no-one any harm. If you create a

culture where certain types of dishonest behaviour are acceptable,

then you are po ten shallly opening the door to more serious forms of

dishonest behaviour. Remember Graham Axford, the man on

incapacity benefit in Croydon who also has a boat and house in France.

We've had a breakthrough. He's agreed to meet our undercover

reporter. We're meeting at his local pub, another reporter

secretly films him as he arrives. He's claiming incapacity benefit,

but he turns up on a bike. He looks He thinks we want to buy his boat.

In fact, we just want to find out more about his secret life.

look like you're ready for another pint. Nice to meet you. When our

man turns up, Graham Axford's bad back doesn't stop him grabbing a

bar stool. He's wearing a sweatshirt with a picture of his

boat, crumpet. What do you do? Settled with his pint Graham Axford

Hang on, the man who's on incapacity benefit also says he's

sailed his yacht to the Azores. That DVD should be interesting then.

He's had thousands from the state, now he wants �25,000 for the yacht.

But we've got more checks to do. Graham Axford has a council flat in

Croydon, but he has another place that he lives and it's here, in the

beautiful Normandy countryside. Beyond those trees, he has a

farmhouse. It's a substantial place. We're going to try and get a bit

closer to see if we can have a better look at it.

Croydon Council thinks he had the place here when he applied for his

flat. It's obvious really that you can't get a Council house, if you

already own somewhere else. If you hide the fact that you have

somewhere else, you could be in serious trouble. It took some

reaching, hidden away in the French countryside, but we eventually

discovered the rural retreat. Our undercover reporter has managed to

not only get access to the boat, but we've been able to have a look

at the property. His second property, if you like, try and see

what we could see there. From a distance it looked big. But up

close it looks quite substantial. This is a big place. It's in its

own grounds in beautiful countryside. This is extraordinary.

He has another yacht. Maybe this is Crumpet One. This is a man on

housing benefit, incapacity benefit, a flat in Croydon, but he has a

farmhouse, two yachts. He has this other life in France. Now Graham

Axford half owned this property when he applied for his council

flat in 1997, but he didn't declare it and that's serious deception. Of

course, he's paid very little rent for that flat because of his

incapacity benefit. We need to see how justified that claim is. This

flat in south London is being repossessed, after Panorama exposed

another housing scam here earlier this year. Well done. This team is

from Southwark Council. They're taking the flat back, after we

showed the previous tenant unlawfully renting it out for a fat

profit. Long gone. This is not quite the living room that we sat

in. The damage is not that bad. that bad. This is what it used to

look like. It was supposed to be the home of this man, PC Stephen

Holt, a crime prevention officer. As a tenant he was supposed to live

in it. Under a year ago, PC Holt told our team he was happy to rent

out his council flat for holiday lets. It's fully booked now.

not surprised. That's �400. Did you want a deposit as well? Yes there's

a �200 deposit. Chatting to our undercover reporter, the details of

That's right the policeman unlawfully renting out his council

flat just said he has a place in France.

We asked PC Holt about the subletting and he sent us an e-mail.

He says he misunderstood the tenancey agreement and

inadvertantly breached conditions. He went on, as soon as he became

aware of this, he notified the council and returned the property.

A further detail has come to light. Southwark Council and the

Metropolitan Police are investigating whether PC Holt

falsified documents in order to get hold of the flat in the first place.

His solicitors say this is a serious allegation, which he

robustly denies. This won't take long. There's not much decorating,

if any, to do. Flats like this are desperately needed. There are

19,000 people on the waiting list here in Southwark alone and five

million in England as a whole. So the scale of the problem is clear,

nationally about 167,000 council properties are being unlawfully

Back in Hillingdon, the fraud team is still trying to get to the

people who manufacture fake passports and ID cards. Kiri thinks

a national insurance card presented by a benefit claimant looks

suspicious. Straight away, I have picked it up that was a made up, a

fake national insurance number. So, what we have a an individual trying

to obtain benefits with, who is claiming to be French, claiming to

have just come into the country, has produced wage slips claiming to

be working for a hospital, for a local hospital, as a porter and has

asked for help to pay his rentment -- Rent. Within days he's invited

for an interview. When he arrives it's not just Kiri who's waiting.

You're under arrest for on 29th July 2011, you presented a fake

French identity card. You also completed an application for

housing benefit and Council Tax Benefit dishonestly. Is the

tightness OK? The police search his bag for any other evidence of

identity fraud. They confiscate the man's fake national insurance card

and find a second one. The French identity card, which he has

produced, was found to be counterfits and also the national

insurance number, which belongs to his wife, is not really hers.

Kiri needs to search the man's flat, where he lives with his wife and

That's a Mauritian national identity card in the name of

Laksiman Pudoo. There's his birth certificate. Mauritian birth

certificate. These are original birth and marriage certificates for

both Mr and Mrs Pudoo. They're from the republic of Mauritius.

pretending to the French, the man hoped to be able to stay in this

country. If he's found guilty, he faces possible imprisonment and

deportation. Kiri can find this part of the job difficult. I feel

very sad about this whole thing. Everything they were aiming for,

for them and for their kids, to make a living here, living in this

kind of place, trying to legitimise, it's all going to be wasted now,

criminal record, criminal case. They're going to be evicted. What

can do you? Tackling fraud is not always about lengthy investigations.

Council investigator Chris Norris and the blue badge squad are back

out, looking for people who unlawfully use the badges to park

in disabled spaces. What's surprising is how many people are

cheating. Madam? And how angry they get when challenged. I'm asking you

to see the blue badge. She can't wake. Where is she? Round in the

harl Quinn. You can come with me. We're not in the Harlequinn.

driver claims the badge holder is in a nearby shopping centre, but

isn't keen to get her with an officer. She is December froit get

away and ignores Chris's attempts to stop her. Do we have a police

office sner Yeah police are on the Then the team approach a woman who

says she's here to pick up her sister, blue badge holder.

badge is hers. If she was with you in the car, that's fine. It seems

she might not be telling the whole We know the sister works in Next

and we know that that's the other sister and they're misusing the

She's going to work... Whereabouts do you work? I also work in Next as

well. So you've parked here to come into work? You just told me you

were going to pick her up? Yes, I was going to go into work as well.

You said you were going to pick her up and that you were... No, I'm...

I need to let you know what your rights are. You do not have to say

anything, anything you do say may be give none evidence. You are not

under arrest, we are local authority officers, not police. We

have to retain the badge at this point in time, yes. That's the

thing to bear in mind. I'm done here. Hi. I'm Richard from Panorama.

You have come to park in a disabled bay but you haven't got a

disability have you? No. Did you know it was wrong? Yes. How do you

feel right now? Stupid. Really stupid.

The woman who drove off earlier is now back and this time an elderly

woman is in the front seat. All I was asking was to see your blue

badge. I wasn't going to park up and two round the corner, I didn't

need to, you should have believed me. He wasn't with you. I left her

over the other side with my husband... That is the lady who was

here before and she seems to have brought the blue badge holder and

now she wants to talk to Chris. What I can do is first of all ask

to see the badge. You are not holding it. I need to take the

details and the serial number. are told later that the story about

the elderly woman being in the shopping centre is nonsense. When

the council made further inquiries, they found that after driving at

Chris, the investigator, she went straight round to the elderly

woman's nursing home, had her dressed, put her in the car and

drove her back. The case has been referred to social services. The

driver of the car admitted to Panorama that she had made an error

of judgment and then panicked. She says it will never happen again and

that she cares deeply for the elderly badge holder.

Some cases are breathtaking. Croydon Council investigator Andrea

Cordery is looking at the case of Stephen Sussams. It's thought he

may have claimed thousands in benefits he's not entitled to. He

has a council flat, most of the rent and council tax are paid for

because the local authority thinks he's on Incapacity Benefit. He's

not. It was stopped two years ago but he never told the council. He

also never told them he has a double life, a long way from his

Croydon flat. Andrea thinks Stephen Sussams is

running a pub in Devon while claiming for a council house and a

led of benefits in Croydon. She's got the documentation, she's got it

all on paper. We've come down to Devon to see for ourselves what's

going on. Stephen Sussams' pub is in Kingswear opposite Dartmouth in

one of the most beautiful parts of Devon. The pub sits by the marina,

a thriving upmarket tourist destination. And the Royal Dart pub

is famous, Royal because Queen Victoria visited the posh yacht

club here. It's the sort of place you would imagine a landlord would

do pretty well. Our undercover reporter's spent the afternoon down

in Kingswear and he was basically looking for Sussams to see if he

was in the pub, to see if he was just there. I've just got the

footage back so I'm going to watch it now. This is the main street in

Kingswear. This is the pub, the Royal Dart, at the heart of

Kingswear, which is a very beautiful little place. Our

reporter has seen Sussams and he's walking towards the back of his pub.

He's in a car, which is... Unbelievely, he's getting out of a

Bentley. That's the cover story. That's the clincher. He's just said

he's been there for two-and-a-half years. Let's not forget, this is a

man who has a council flat in Croydon, telling our reporter that

in fact he's the landlord of a pub in a beautiful village in Devon and

he's saying all this while he's pulling bags out the back of his

More confirmation that Stephen Sussams is actually running the pub.

A double life. Extraordinary. Experts say across the country

councils are pretty poor at detecting and stopping fraud. Some

are trying to put that right. This is Stoke where, over the last few

years, they've beefed up their anti-fraud team. Can you give me a

brief overview as to how you are going to set it up and how we are

going to set it up? Two cameras here, one here so we can see across

the road. We can set another one up in the bedroom, one with a close-up

so we can see somebody's face. There have been complaints that a

council bungalow is being used as a late-night resting place for local

taxi drivers. The investigators decide surveillance is the best way

to find out what's really going on. This team is rigging up secret

cameras. We can see the sign tonne roof, the name of the company, that

kind of thing. That would be massive evidentially. It would be

more wide angled. You will see the person moving to the door. The big

camera is the one that focuses on the door that catches the faces, so

we'll have two bits, two forms of evidence here. Paul is in charge of

the team. The situation here, there's elderly people, obviously

bungalows are suited to elderly people, they're waiting to get into

these properties and it's an absolute crying shame if a property

like this, which is meant to be occupied by an elderly person,

actually isn't and is being used for something like a stop-off for

taxi drivers. We can't show you the results of the surveillance or

where the house is, because the investigation is still running,

Stoke's housing fraud operation was only set up recently. They've

seized around 30 houses in the last six months. Paul says the more

they've looked for cheats, the more they've found. We are getting lots

more referrals in now and we are now at the stage where we've got 70

ongoing cases. So there was a time when you weren't doing any of these

investigations and now the more you look, the bigger the problem you

are finding? I've been here five years now and year on year we

haven't covered more and more fraud. That's not to say that there's more

and more fraud happening, it's probably more the case that we've

become more effective at what we do. In a way, are remore vulnerable to

benefit fraud than we've been for a while? Absolutely. It goes without

saying, when the financial climate is how it is, fraud will go up, no

two roads about that, and it is. The fact is, it takes a lot of

effort to catch benefit cheats, and even then, you are only likely to

get a tiny proportion. These are vied owes that successfully caught

some claiming disability related benefits when they shouldn't be.

This is from a guy in Wolverhampton. He's warming up for a football game.

He's doing a bit of keepy uppy. Reasonably impressive. He's

stretching his legs and he's about to come on. This is surveillance

footage of a guy who's making a claim that from these pictures it

doesn't look like he deserves. The examples keep coming. This

scoutmaster from Newcastle claimed benefit force a bad back but was

caught heaving heavy collection tins into the back of a car. This

woman's claimed disability living allowance but seemed fit enough to

play a round of golf. In fact, there seems to be quite a few

golfers on sickness related Then, there's the badminton player,

a former schoolteacher who claimed disability living allowance. And

this man was also on disability living allowance but it didn't stop

him working on his allotment. There is a kind of inherent comedy

value to these where you think, look at him, he says he can't work

and he's digging in his garden with his shirt off, but maybe the point

of this is that it takes such a lot of effort just to stop one case.

It's about one in 30, the number of people who fraudulently claim and

then get stopped. But to get that one in 30, it takes this kind of

effort. And expense. Unfortunately, the chances of getting caught for

fraud are very, very low. A lot of organisations that have their own

investigative capacity don't have enough resources. The consequences

of that are that the vast number of frauds that are occuring, only a

very, very tiny proportion ever end up in the courts. That is obviously

a major problem I think to society when you are sending out a message

that you can engage in fraud, your chances of getting caught are low

and your chances of ending up with a stiff criminal penalty are even

lower. But Croydon's investigators continue to watch Graham Axford.

Remember, he's the man who got a council flat in Croydon, rent and

council tax pretty much paid, even though he already had a farmhouse

in Normandy. He's on Incapacity Benefit but seems to have spent a

lot of time sailing around in his boat called Crumpet Too. We arrange

another meeting, still pretending to be interested in buying his boat.

He arrives on his bike again, this time he's on the phone. He's not

shy when it comes to talking about his other life. Out comes his

laptop so he can show us what he's done to the farmhouse. Not a bad

place for a bloke who's asking the He's even built himself a place to

Although he tells us that sometimes the work made his back worse, he

still managed to do a pretty good job on the farpblhouse. --

farmhouse. A lot of work? No, you Reroof all of that? Yes. That must

have been a lot of lifting, all those tiles, they're heavy aren't

they? Yes, five pounds each I think it is. That's the reason we bought

a tractor. Graham Axford isn't working because of his bad back,

but it doesn't seem to have stopped him reroofing his farmhouse. He

also told us he sailed across the Atlantic and that was while he was

on Incapacity Benefit too. His final confession # He pretty much

lived in the States for seven years. You can't keep a council flat if

you are living abroad. And here it is, Graham Axford on Crumpet Too in

Blue skies, dolphins and a big sailing boat. And all on incapacity

We want to know how he can explain his double life. So this is where

Graham Axford lives. This is where his council flat is. We have been

here for a couple of days hoping to grab a word with him, but we

haven't managed to see him. We have received an e-mail from his

solicitor who says "Mr Axford has never fraudulently misrepresented

the nature or extent on his back injury, that he's been assessed by

medical professionals and they say, having an ongoing back condition is

not incompatible with cycling or being able to travel on the boat

with assistance." That's what his solicitors say. We still have one

or two questions that we would like to put to Mr Axford. I'm going to

knock on his door and see if I can So, his bike is here, but he's not

answering his door and that is a shame, because we think that there

are other questions that he has to answer, like, how he managed to get

this flat when he already had a farmhouse in France. And how he was

able to claim incapacity benefit when he was living in another

country. Those are questions that we would

like to ask Mr Axford, but that he will have to answer any way,

because he continues to be investigated by the council. They

will keep knocking until they get an answer. Mr Axford told us he and

his wife have separated. She lives in the French farmhouse and he

lives in the Croydon council flat. Out by Heathrow, on the other side

of London, the team from Hillingdon Council are dealing with another

man -- man suspected of having multiple fake identities.

Suspecting something is one thing, proving it quite another. Kiri, his

colleague and the police pay him an Come and open the door, it's the

They may have lost the element of surprise, so out comes the enforcer.

Please! Turns out he was in all along. Why didn't you open the

door? What's your name? Have you got some ID? We have a warrant to

They have a warrant to look for a man called Rachid Kachour, he's

supposed to live here. But this guy says he's called Thierry. Your

family, are they Algerian? Yeah. Elsewhere in the house, the team

find evidence that the man they're looking for, a Mr Kachour, could be

claiming benefits fraudulently. These pay slips are for Kachour,

Rachid Kachour, and these look like the originals. But we have a blank

original here. It looks like the pay slips that have been presented

to the London borough of Hillingdon have been made up here on site,

because we've got blank ones. Ramila is trying to work out where

this man, who says he's called Thierry, fits in. He's not been

listed on the benefit claim as living here. It's meant to be Mr

Kachour. Now, my only thought is that Mr Kachour an the person that

we have in the room is the same person. While other officers search

for more papers, Sergeant Bewley has his own go at getting to the

truth and yet another name comes to light and Mr Dimane. Immigration

have a record of your name and say that another name of a person he

uses is actually Dimane. Yeah. you used that name? Use it? Have

Someone has used both names. You say you've never spoken to

immigration? Maybe, I'm not sure. Have you ever put in a claim to UK

immigration to stay in this country? Thierry or? You, you're

Thierry aren't you? Yeah. It seems that Thierry is struggling to

understand, but Sergeant Bewley is not convinced. What's your name?

Thierry Devetour. Have you applied to stay in the UK? Have you? Can

you say that without smiling, have you ever used that name? Thierry?

No that name. Have you ever used that name? For a... Yeah. You have?

So you and him are the same person, are you? Yeah. Got there at last.

That's why I said to you to speak the truth. Right, so why did you

use another name? This one? This my original name. That's your original

name, Ahcene Dimane. Come on, you've started so you have to

finish. The man finally admits that his real name is Ahcene Dimane and

that Thierry Devetour is a fake identity he uses. And what about

that Mr Kachour, the man that came here -- the man they came here to

find? There's another ID in the kitchen. Is there? How did we miss

that? Oh, dear oh, dear. What's the name in there? Kachour. That's the

person we are looking for. All these cards we found at this

address. The council believes that about �50,000 has been fraudulently

claimed in the name of Mr Kachour. Ahcene Dimane denies that he is Mr

Kachour. But he has just confessed It's difficult life. Life is all

Mr Dimane is arrested. Hillingdon investigators continue their

pursuit of those using fake documents, but experts say many

councils don't understand the scale of the problem. A lot of

organisations are not realistic about the levels of fraud that they

face, because there is in any organisation a large number of

frauds that are undetected. So, if they're relying upon detected

levels of fraud, they are not getting the full picture of the

extent of fraud within their organisation. Well, one case in

Croydon we're looking at is that of Stephen Sussams. He gets his flat

virtually paid for because he's on incapacity benefit, only he's not

any more, and he hasn't told the council. While he keeps his flat,

he also runs a waurntfront pub in Devon. When we saw him lass, he was

pulling shopping out the back of a Bentley. Now we're back because we

want to confirm he's actively working down here on the coast.

Stephen Sussams is behind the bar counting his cash, doing all the

things you'd expect a landlord to do. He starts chatting to our

undercover team. Now the sound is terrible. But listen and he

confirms he owns the business. So it's his business. He's claiming

benefits and has a council flat in Croydon, while living and working

in one of the poshest parts of the country. Meanwhile, an threa, the

Croydon fraud investigator, thinks she has gathered enough evidence to

seize Stephen Sussams' flat. She believes he's breached the terms of

his tenancey agreement because he's living in Devon. She goes to his

flat to call him for an interview. Mr Sussams? Hello there. Is Mr

Sussams here? He's not in at the moment. The letter has been

delivered, but Mr Sussams is not there. This starts the ball rolling.

There is every possibility that the council has a property here with

the wrong person in it. The council will be seeking to get that back.

We separately wrote to Mr Sussams asking him some questions. He said

he couldn't answer them because there's a council investigation.

When we catch up with him, he's back in Croydon. Mr Sussams? Hello.

I'm Richard Bilton from BBC Panorama. Can I grab a quick word

wu. I was wondering how you get benefits and a council house when

you have a pub in Devon. As you know, the case is under

investigation by the council. I've no intention of being involved in

trial by television. Speak to my solicitor. Just answer a few

questions for us. This is your right to reply. This is a nice car.

You have a lovely pub. The council tax payers, are they paying for

that, what can you say to them? I've said, I have no intention of

being involved in trial by television. Thank you for the right

to reply. Why are awe peeling? Most of the time you spend in Devon,

don't you? You've come back for a bit, is that since you got our

letter? Mr Sussams, just a couple of questions, if I may? A few

words? So he said he didn't want to answer the questions, said he

couldn't because of investigation. He could have easily answered the

pretty straightforward questions about how he continues to get

benefits related to incapacity benefit even though he is no longer

entitled to them and how he has a double life, a pub and a Bentley,

yet a council house and benefits here in Croydon. He didn't answer

them. He just drove away in his Bentley.

Mr Sussams is still being investigated by the council. His

housing benefit has been suspended. He also faces separate allegations

that he took about �25,000 in carers allowance for looking after

someone who had been dead for six months. Mr Pudoo, who was arrested

for using false papers to get benefits, pleaded guilty in court

last week. He may now be deported. PC Stephen Holt the crime

prevention officer who unlawfully sublet his flat remains under

investigation by Southwark Council an the Metropolitan Police.

Ahcene Dimane denied benefit fraud but pleaded guilty in court to

using false documents to get into the country. He's due to be

sentenced tomorrow. It's difficult life here.

The woman who drove at Chris the investigator and then reappeared

with the elderly woman may face Graham Axford, the man who sailed

across the Atlantic while on incapacity benefit, says his

eligibility for the benefit has been verified by medical

professionals. But he continues to be investigated by the council and

could lose his flat. Crumpet Too is still for sale.

Most people on benefits really need them and don't cheat the system.