Immigration: Who Should We Let In? Panorama


Immigration: Who Should We Let In?

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Tonight on Panorama...

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The battle that's coming over immigration...

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..the voters still crying out for change...

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We've got enough, ducky. We've got enough.

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..the businesses who say they need immigrants...

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You must have friends who say, "For goodness' sake,

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"why don't you employ British people to do these jobs?"

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Where are they?

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Of course business wants to carry on what it's been doing,

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because it's easy, but the responsibility of government

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is to look after the consumer and the citizen.

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Calls to control immigration drove the vote to leave the EU -

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but what now?

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They keep promising to come forward with their ideas

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and they keep putting it off.

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Who will do the jobs done now by people from the EU?

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Chicken wrap?

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There's a danger that if we can't recruit people,

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and we've already seen it in America,

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that people will be replaced by robots.

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That is the way the industry will go if we cannot employ people.

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There's only a year to go till Brexit,

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and yet we still don't have answer to a very big question -

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who should we let in?

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Welcome to one of the top Brexit-backing areas

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in the country -

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Mansfield in Nottinghamshire.

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70% here voted to leave

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and it doesn't take you very long

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to find a clue as to why that was.

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Do you want to see immigration the same,

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so you want to see it cut, do you want to see it go up?

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Cut.

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-You think it should be cut?

-Yeah. It should be capped.

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Do you think we need to cut immigration in this country?

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Yes.

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Do you think immigration needs to be cut?

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-Yes.

-You do?

-I do. Honestly, yeah.

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So far, so simple, then.

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What's a little bit more tricky

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is deciding who exactly should be let into the country

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and who should be kept out.

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Ask you a question?

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Do you think immigration in this country needs to be cut?

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-Yes, I do.

-Who should come in, then? Who should we let in?

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-Erm, professional people.

-Professional?

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-Yeah.

-What, people with skills?

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People with skills, yeah.

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Should we let any unskilled people come in?

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Well, I should think... I think they should be monitored.

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Let me just ask you about a few different groups.

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-This is my Happy Families game.

-Oh, right.

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Do you think we should have, erm,

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foreign bricklayers coming into the country?

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-Oh, yeah.

-You would let foreign bricklayers?

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-Yeah.

-OK. What about fruit pickers?

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-Controlled, I think.

-But would they come in?

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-Well, controlled, yeah.

-So some would come in?

-Yeah, yeah.

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Some foreign fruit pi...

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What about care workers, looking after the elderly?

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Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

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So we'd have some of them from abroad. Lorry drivers?

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-Yes.

-You haven't said no to anybody yet!

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What about chefs?

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Depends, if they... if they've got no chefs, yes.

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Some chefs, OK. Who don't you want to come in?

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Uh, well, you know, just say it's got to be controlled.

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But you haven't identified a single job

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that you don't want foreigners to do.

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It's not the jobs, it's the people who want to come over

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-and sit on their backside and do...

-And do nothing.

-..and do nothing.

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-Scroungers?

-Yeah.

-Scroungers, yes.

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But in this area, do you think a lot of the immigrants are scroungers?

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-No.

-No, no.

-Most of them are hard workers.

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If they're prepared to work...

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-See, what's interesting to me is you want to see immigration cut...

-Yeah.

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..every single job I showed you,

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you said we need them coming from abroad.

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So who is it we stop coming, then?

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Well...I don't know.

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You've stumped me.

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I'm stumped for words.

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It's not just voters who are stumped.

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For all the talk about Brexit,

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ministers have said almost nothing about immigration -

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and now they say they need advice from a committee of experts.

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First we were told an immigration policy would come last Christmas,

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then we were told it would come this spring, now it's the autumn...

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Why the dithering?

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I think there isn't any dithering.

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What I'm committed to doing is making evidence-based policy.

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We will bring an immigration policy forward

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when we're ready and when we're convinced that we're doing it

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with the right evidence in the right way.

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The Government are caught in a trap.

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They promised to cut immigration, yet the numbers coming here

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are still many more than those leaving.

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Last year, net migration was more than 244,000.

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That's more than double the population of Mansfield -

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and yet businesses are complaining they're struggling

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to get the EU workers they need, and that spells trouble.

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The number of workers coming here from Europe is now falling,

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and some, like Radu - a Romanian trucker who's been here

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for five years - are now planning to leave.

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There are 40,000 lorry drivers from the EU on Britain's roads -

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that's one in eight of them.

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I decide to leave the UK because the future is unsure here,

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and I have other opportunities in other countries

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like Germany, like France.

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I can go and work there and I know what's going to happen

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in the future because they will stay in the EU...

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..and I will have rights to work there, to live there,

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to bring my family together to stay together with me.

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The industry's worried that the Romanians and Poles

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they've relied on are beginning to find work elsewhere,

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leaving them exposed.

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We estimate, though it's a pretty accurate estimate,

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that we're about 50,000 drivers short in the UK

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from where we'd like to be and where we are at the moment.

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-50,000 jobs...

-50,000, yes.

-..driving trucks and lorries?

-Yes.

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-That we...

-And you haven't got the people for them?

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We haven't got the people for them.

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We're talking about global pulls on people.

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Extraordinary that we're seeing this

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now that Polish people are wanted back in Poland more than ever.

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They're also wanted in Germany, more than ever.

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So, there is a global labour market which is more mobile

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than it ever was, and will they move?

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Yes, they will.

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Leigh, you must have friends who say, "For goodness' sake,

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"why don't you employ British people to do these jobs

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"instead of Poles and Romanians?"

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And I give them this answer. Where are they?

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And if he can't get the drivers he needs,

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that won't just affect his business, it'll affect yours.

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Leigh told me that free next-day deliveries

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could soon become a thing of the past.

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Hotels, pubs and restaurants

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get even more of their workers from the EU.

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-Are you having in or taking away, madam?

-Take away, please.

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Anything else for you?

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In this chain of salad bars, it's 80%.

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Two years ago on Gumtree, you'd put an advert on, within an hour,

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you'd have 300 applicants, of which you could discount 200.

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-And now?

-And now, maybe five to ten applications.

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-That's dramatic, isn't it?

-Yes, it's fallen off a cliff.

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So people are thinking, "Well, do I want to come to Britain

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"where, if I came two years ago,

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"my take home pay has suddenly dropped by 20%

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"because of the fall in the pound, or do I want to go to Germany

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"where I will be guaranteed to stay there for a much longer time,

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"where their economy is strong?"

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For years, Britain was seen as the best place in Europe

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for young people to find a job.

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That may be starting to change.

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Nice to see you. Hi, Isabella. Hi, chaps. How's it going?

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Hi, Martin. Nice to see you.

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Tim Martin is the founder of Wetherspoons pubs,

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and he campaigned for Britain to leave the EU.

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-Where are you from, Isabella?

-From Spain.

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From Spain?

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I expect you moved here cos it's a better climate!

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-No!

-TIM LAUGHS

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I think some people have got used to easy access to employees

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and it hasn't always been like that, so...

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Do you think it's maybe a kick up the butt for some bosses

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who found it pretty easy just to get the young East Europeans,

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without having to make much of an effort to recruit people back home?

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I don't like to say it's a kick up the butt,

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because it's damn difficult running a small business

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if there's a change, a sea change in the economy -

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but if you're going to trade in the long-run,

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you've got to find a way of dealing with these issues,

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and it's not easy.

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Food manufacturing is big business.

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30% of its workers are from the EU.

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Back in 2004, it was just 2%.

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Patrick Hook runs a hatchery turning eggs into chicks.

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The business hatches 9 million chicks a week,

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but struggles to find the workers it needs.

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Now, I don't want to spoil your chicken dinner

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but this is where it might have begun.

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Wow, look at that. Hello.

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Here, at the moment, we have about five or six vacancies,

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but as a business we have about 50-60 vacancies

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across the UK that we cannot fulfil.

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Isn't the truth that you're just going to

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have to put your wages up a bit?

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You may have to have more apprenticeship schemes,

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but you would, in the end, get the workers.

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We pay above the National Minimum and National Living Wage

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and we still can't get the people.

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Even if we have to put wages up,

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which I think we'll have to, it's the reality,

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I still don't think that will attract domestic UK labour.

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How serious, then, is it as a crisis for your business?

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The labour crisis and not having those skilled permanent people

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available to us from the European Union is a bigger threat to us

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as a business and our industry

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and it's bigger than avian influenza, that is a fact.

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Avian flu is less of a threat to this industry

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than getting the immigration rules wrong?

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Absolutely.

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Those rules, remember, haven't changed yet -

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and business don't want them to.

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Theresa May must decide whether to back down,

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or tell them that, after Brexit,

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they'll need to find workers here.

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There are eight million people in this country

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who are classified as economically inactive,

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two million of whom would like to be economically active.

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There is a pretty big pool of people who they could train.

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Of course, business wants to carry on what it's being doing,

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because it's easy, but the responsibility

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of government is to look after the consumer and the citizen.

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The Prime Minster's big Brexit speech last Friday

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promised, once again, to control immigration.

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We are clear that, as we leave the EU,

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free movement of people will come to an end

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and we will control the number of people

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who come to live in our country.

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That's what Mansfield voted for, not just in the referendum

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but at the general election, too.

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Once a mining town, always Labour, it voted for a Tory MP

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for the first time in its history last June.

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Particularly with immigration, I think,

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people want to see control, is the key word.

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That "taking back control" message was a really powerful thing here,

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in an area that, economically,

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has kind of been forgotten for a long time,

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through decades since the pit closures

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and all the community and the economy that was built around that.

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People feel a bit forgotten by politics up there.

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The number of people living in this town

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who were born abroad isn't particularly high -

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but Mansfield's been changing fast.

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The number's tripled in just 10 years.

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I'll walk down every morning to this coffee bar - not being racist -

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I can probably meet, or pass, 15 people...

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..and sometimes you don't hear an English voice,

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and then you think, what on earth's wrong with Mansfield?

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And there's too many people from other countries living here

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and living off us.

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Yes, I believe in immigration, definitely.

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We've always wanted people in from other countries to do

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the skilled work, the labourers, because we've never had enough

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since the '40s, we haven't.

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So I've no problem with that, no problem.

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I'd just like to have a bit more screening when they come in.

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I think Mansfield probably, historically,

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isn't used to a lot of immigration, you know, on that side.

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So to have quite a heavy influx of people suddenly coming

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quite quickly, within two or three years, people notice that

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and certain people obviously feel uncomfortable about it.

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It was a beautiful town in the '60s, '70s,

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and now there's nothing left.

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So did you vote for a Tory MP to cut immigration?

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I did, and to come out, to Brexit. I voted for that, as well. Yeah.

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Talking about cutting immigration

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and actually delivering it are very different.

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It involves hard choices

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and stopping business hiring who they want.

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For eight years, the Tories have had a target

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to bring net migration down to under 100,000.

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It is still well over double that.

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The last two sets of statistics that we've seen

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have seen the direction of travel downwards,

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which is what we're aiming towards.

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But none of us have ever said

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that this going to be either easy, or quick.

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You do control the rules for people outside Europe...

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..and even if nobody came from Europe you'd be missing your target.

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So either the target is nonsense, or the rules are no good. Which is it?

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We have certainly borne down on immigration

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and we're determined to keep our commitment to the British public

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and make sure that we return immigration to sustainable levels.

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The target is completely bogus.

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It's never been reached, it never can be reached.

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It's just a way of the Tories talking an anti-immigrant narrative.

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Is it possible, though, under Labour's immigration policy

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that immigration might go up?

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We can't say what is going to happen to levels of migration

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because migration flows are subject to

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all sorts of international pressures.

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But immigration could go up then?

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With increased emphasis on training and skills,

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the need for people's specific skills from overseas

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may well decline.

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Scotland needs more immigration says her First Minister -

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not a target to have less.

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It's damaging and counter productive.

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It runs against the needs of the UK economy but even more so,

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given our different demographics,

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it runs counter to the needs of the Scottish economy.

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Our pensioner population over the next 25 years

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is projected to increase by 25%.

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The proportion over 75 years old is projected to increase

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by almost 80% and, yet, our working age population,

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those who are in employment and contributing the taxes

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to support everything else that we hold dear

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is only going to increase by 1%,

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so that tells a story

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that we need to be able to attract talent from elsewhere.

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I think, apart from the Prime Minister,

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it's quite hard to find anyone who thinks that the target,

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as it currently operates,

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is a useful contribution to policy at all.

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-Or can be met?

-Or can be met.

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It's easy for ministers to promise voters what they want to hear,

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but business leaders are pleading with them

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to drop their immigration target and to simplify the rules.

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They're meant to ensure that the best and the brightest

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can come here from the rest of the world, outside Europe,

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people with skills, people earning around £30,000 a year -

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but bosses often complain that's not how they work in practice,

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and they're struggling to get the workers that they really need.

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You might expect those rules to work for the company

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that makes James Bond's favourite car.

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Not many people know what DB stands for,

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but obviously it's David Brown,

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who owned the company for quite a long time.

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This is the production line for the DB11

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Aston Martin's latest luxury model.

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The company's expanding fast it's about to open another factory -

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and it's a British export success story...

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..but they've got 400 vacancies they can't fill here,

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mainly in highly skilled engineering jobs.

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To people who say, let's have, after Brexit,

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the same immigration system

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that we have for people from outside Europe, what do you say?

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That would be a bit of a nightmare, to be frank.

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We needed someone to take care of electronic quality.

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The best person I know in the business is a Japanese guy -

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and it took me 13 months to bring him

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through the hurdles of getting him here and getting him a work permit.

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So more than a year after you identified

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-a specific individual before they could come and work here.

-Yes.

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For people who might be watching and saying, "So what?"

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We don't want immigrants to come here

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and do jobs that can be done for Britons.

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What does it mean for them?

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What you end up doing is you end up losing jobs

0:18:300:18:33

and that means you end up losing British jobs

0:18:330:18:35

because, as you become less and less competitive,

0:18:350:18:37

eventually that, in the relatively short term, that means that

0:18:370:18:41

people on the production lines are getting laid off.

0:18:410:18:43

Big business is certainly making a big noise

0:18:520:18:55

about the need to get the workers they want

0:18:550:18:58

from wherever they can find them.

0:18:580:19:00

Their argument is that it'll make us all richer...

0:19:020:19:05

..but ministers have promises to try to keep,

0:19:080:19:11

and they cap the number of skilled workers who can come here...

0:19:110:19:13

..and that can have unexpected consequences

0:19:150:19:18

not least in the NHS.

0:19:180:19:20

The Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham

0:19:280:19:30

is one of the biggest hospitals in the country.

0:19:300:19:33

One in 10 doctors here and in the NHS as a whole are from the EU.

0:19:350:19:39

After the referendum, there were a fears they'd head home.

0:19:400:19:44

-It looks like we arrived right in the nick of time, actually.

-Yes!

0:19:450:19:48

Yeah, I've increased the infusion rate again,

0:19:480:19:52

-and she was bed 18, wasn't it?

-Bed 18, yeah...

0:19:520:19:55

Andrea Carneiro is a consultant anaesthetist from Portugal.

0:19:550:20:00

-Five an hour is just not enough.

-He's staying. For now.

0:20:000:20:05

-VOICEOVER:

-I expected better from Britain, if I'm honest.

0:20:050:20:07

I believe passionately in the NHS.

0:20:070:20:10

I like the fact that I can do a good job here

0:20:100:20:12

because the system allows me to, and in return I work hard.

0:20:120:20:16

If you spoke to friends or family in Portugal, would you say,

0:20:160:20:20

"Yes come and join me in the NHS," or would you say,

0:20:200:20:23

"Well, I wouldn't if I were you"?

0:20:230:20:24

I would say, erm, clinically and from a professional perspective

0:20:240:20:29

it's great working here but don't do it just yet.

0:20:290:20:32

Because, big uncertainty.

0:20:340:20:36

There's no point in jumping in to something

0:20:360:20:38

that's still up in the air.

0:20:380:20:40

That's what the stats do show.

0:20:450:20:47

Many like Andrea ARE staying but the proportion of NHS staff

0:20:470:20:51

coming from the EU is now falling.

0:20:510:20:54

This at a time when the health service

0:20:540:20:57

has 100,000 vacancies, and under current immigration rules,

0:20:570:21:01

is often stopped from filling them from the rest of the world.

0:21:010:21:06

A national cap on the number of skilled workers

0:21:060:21:08

who can come here means this hospital has been blocked

0:21:080:21:11

from bringing in doctors it badly wants.

0:21:110:21:15

We've got vacancies for doctors at the moment.

0:21:150:21:18

We found people abroad who meet the criteria that we want to employ

0:21:180:21:21

but they've come up against the ceiling,

0:21:210:21:23

so were not allowed to bring them in -

0:21:230:21:25

and we can't bring anyone in now to this hospital until April.

0:21:250:21:28

So, quite simply, doctors you wanted,

0:21:280:21:32

doctors who wanted to come here, but they weren't allowed to come?

0:21:320:21:35

Couldn't come. When I haven't got the staff to look after patients,

0:21:350:21:38

we find staff who want to come here,

0:21:380:21:40

who've got the skills and the requirements

0:21:400:21:41

and then they're turned down because of a cap,

0:21:410:21:43

then it's more than irritating.

0:21:430:21:45

That's a disgraceful situation.

0:21:480:21:50

People depend on the NHS, and because of politics, really,

0:21:500:21:55

and pandering to anti-immigrant sentiment,

0:21:550:21:58

the government is putting the NHS at risk.

0:21:580:22:01

Some NHS doctors and all nurses aren't subject to a cap.

0:22:010:22:07

They're treated as what's called a shortage occupation.

0:22:070:22:10

We know that no shortage occupation is turned away.

0:22:120:22:15

Ministers again and again say we want the best

0:22:150:22:18

and the brightest to come.

0:22:180:22:20

In the NHS, the best and the brightest can't come,

0:22:200:22:23

because the system says the number of visas are capped,

0:22:230:22:25

they're not able to get here.

0:22:250:22:27

Our visa system is very rigorous and making sure that within the cap,

0:22:270:22:31

we have the most skilled -

0:22:310:22:34

and I'm conscious, as the Minister,

0:22:340:22:37

you have to get the right balance,

0:22:370:22:39

but we are determined to listen to all sectors of the economy

0:22:390:22:42

and work within the system we already have.

0:22:420:22:44

Under current immigration rules,

0:22:480:22:51

there are all sorts of jobs which employers

0:22:510:22:53

want to fill that they can't fill with people from outside the EU.

0:22:530:22:58

People who are not deemed to be the best or the brightest,

0:22:580:23:02

people like the poor old lorry drivers, or the care workers,

0:23:020:23:06

or the bricklayers, or the chefs

0:23:060:23:08

and the people who serve us in restaurants.

0:23:080:23:11

So, after Brexit, who will do those jobs?

0:23:110:23:16

Hi! Chicken wrap? would you like to eat here or take it away?

0:23:260:23:31

Leon serves upmarket fast food.

0:23:310:23:34

Half its 1,000 staff are from the EU.

0:23:340:23:37

From what I've experienced so far,

0:23:390:23:41

it's a very nice country to be in, especially London.

0:23:410:23:44

I'm not sure about around London but London is just very vibrant

0:23:440:23:48

and young and multicultural, so there's a lot to do here,

0:23:480:23:51

and I definitely want to stay after that, I think.

0:23:510:23:54

The boss says that his business couldn't thrive

0:23:560:23:59

if only immigrants with high skills are let in to Britain.

0:23:590:24:02

It's very easy to say, "Let's just take the scientists,

0:24:050:24:09

"let's just take the people with PhDs,

0:24:090:24:12

"because surely they can add value to us."

0:24:120:24:15

The reality is, the people who really add value

0:24:150:24:17

as well are the 18 to 25-year-olds that have the youth,

0:24:170:24:19

the energy, the drive, the vigour, the creativity, the verve,

0:24:190:24:22

who come to places like Leon.

0:24:220:24:25

We need those people, as well, and they are, we need a constant supply.

0:24:250:24:29

Thank you!

0:24:300:24:31

What, John, is the alternative,

0:24:330:24:34

if you can't get the staff that you need in these restaurants?

0:24:340:24:37

There's a danger that if we can't recruit people,

0:24:370:24:40

and we've already seen it in America, that people will be

0:24:400:24:42

replaced by robots, and that's not something we want to see.

0:24:420:24:46

It's not good for the culture, it's not good for the customer -

0:24:460:24:48

but that is the way the industry will go if we cannot employ people.

0:24:480:24:52

If you go online and actually look at the technology,

0:24:540:24:57

I think there's a film about robots even making spaghetti bolognese.

0:24:570:25:00

The robots are coming -

0:25:020:25:04

but let's make sure we don't accelerate ourselves

0:25:040:25:07

to a world where robots are the future.

0:25:070:25:09

ROBOT BEEPS

0:25:100:25:13

I don't think we should be frightened of mechanisation,

0:25:130:25:16

and I don't know what type of sandwich you like,

0:25:160:25:19

but you will get exactly the sandwich you want

0:25:190:25:21

without any variation if it's made by machines.

0:25:210:25:24

But wouldn't some people who voted to leave along with you

0:25:240:25:28

say, "I did it because I wanted jobs for my children

0:25:280:25:32

"and jobs for my grandchildren"?

0:25:320:25:34

Those jobs will go to robots whether we have immigration or not.

0:25:340:25:37

That immigration is not the issue around technological development -

0:25:370:25:40

technological development, artificial intelligence,

0:25:400:25:43

mechanisation is all happening, and that will carry on.

0:25:430:25:47

Investing in more robots, more intelligent machines,

0:25:480:25:52

may be one answer if businesses find it harder

0:25:520:25:55

to hire cheap workers from abroad.

0:25:550:25:57

Training more Brits, paying them more, could be another.

0:25:570:26:02

Both, though, take time and money.

0:26:020:26:05

What we do about immigration after Brexit

0:26:090:26:12

raises huge questions which aren't being answered now.

0:26:120:26:16

Some are keen to kick-start that debate.

0:26:160:26:20

I know how difficult it is, often,

0:26:220:26:24

for politicians to make a pro-migration argument,

0:26:240:26:28

because there are concerns out there that require to be addressed

0:26:280:26:32

but it is so important that politicians do have the courage

0:26:320:26:35

to make that argument,

0:26:350:26:36

because failure to do so will mean that the next generation

0:26:360:26:39

is living with the consequences for a long time to come.

0:26:390:26:42

There are trade-offs. There are genuine economic consequences,

0:26:450:26:49

as well as social implications,

0:26:490:26:51

and I think now that people are beginning to realise

0:26:510:26:53

that maybe we will finally begin to have that debate.

0:26:530:26:57

Do you think there's a chance for the country to have a debate

0:26:580:27:01

-it hasn't before?

-I think there's more than a chance. It'll happen.

0:27:010:27:05

It's happening now, in a way - and that's a great thing.

0:27:050:27:09

Debate always produces better answers

0:27:090:27:12

than someone in an ivory tower.

0:27:120:27:14

Do you think it's time the public were let in on the debate

0:27:150:27:18

about our future immigration policy?

0:27:180:27:20

I think the public HAVE been let in on the debate.

0:27:200:27:23

They expressed a clear view to us in the referendum of 2016,

0:27:230:27:26

the general election of 2017 -

0:27:260:27:29

but I would actually encourage them to keep learning more.

0:27:290:27:32

The thing that's really struck me is that immigration

0:27:320:27:35

is an incredibly complicated subject

0:27:350:27:38

and too few people know enough about it.

0:27:380:27:40

The question is simple. The answer, less so. Who should we let in?

0:27:400:27:45

-You're a yes to all of these, are you?

-Yeah!

-Chefs?

0:27:460:27:51

What about chefs, restaurants?

0:27:510:27:54

No. We've got enough.

0:27:540:27:57

Why does the job they do

0:27:570:27:59

make them any better or worse as a person to like?

0:27:590:28:01

We've got enough in this country unemployed

0:28:010:28:04

without taking on more from abroad.

0:28:040:28:07

-But often...

-They're qualified.

0:28:070:28:09

But often it's actually the people who come from abroad

0:28:090:28:12

who do the jobs that we don't want to do.

0:28:120:28:14

Well, that's down to this government, isn't it?

0:28:140:28:17

To make 'em do it. Make 'em train.

0:28:170:28:19

What's wrong with bringing in people from, say, Europe, to do those jobs?

0:28:190:28:23

We've got enough, ducky. We've got enough.

0:28:230:28:26

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