Amlwch - Thu, 19 Jan 2012 Pawb a'i Farn

On today's panel in Amlwch -

The General Secretary of the Union of Welsh Independents,

the Reverend Dr Geraint Tudur.

Two MPs. From Aberconwy, the Conservative, Guto Bebb.

From Dwyfor Meirionydd, Elfyn Llwyd from Plaid Cymru.

Completing the panel, the clinical psychologist, Dr Mair Edwards.

Please give them a warm welcome.

Good evening. It's Thursday night and time for another hour of discussion.

Welcome to the first edition of Pawb a'i Farn in 2012.

We start the year in the north of Anglesey, in the town of Amlwch.

We haven't been here for many years

but I'm sure one of our topics was discussed the last time as well.

A handful of questions have already been chosen.

I'm grateful to our audience for offering so many of them.

We have people here from all over the island and some have travelled

over the Menai knowing they'll be part of the same constituency soon.

If you want to join us in the next few weeks,

we'll be in Newcastle Emlyn, Ruthin and Cardiff.

You're welcome to contribute to the discussion as usual on Twitter

or by send us an e-mail.

The addresses are on the screen.

That's enough from me, let's have our first question asked by Dylan Morgan.

What's your question?

The International Journal of Cancer has published results

by three scientific bodies in France which show an increase

in child leukaemia near nuclear power stations.

Similar results have been published in Germany.

Is it morally right to carry on with plans to build

new nuclear power stations?

Dylan talking about research work done in France and Germany

that shows an increase in child leukaemia

near nuclear power stations.

Is it morally right to carry on with plans to build new nuclear stations?

Let's start with Guto Bebb.

I think the world 'moral' is interesting here.

If every report that's been published about the connection

between cancer and nuclear power stations,

if every one of them said there was a definite connection

then I would say it immoral.

But while some people can name studies from France and Germany

I can sit here and mention reports from Switzerland.

The Swiss held research on 1. 3 million children

that were born in the last 20 years.

There are five nuclear stations in Switzerland,

and the report concluded there was no connection.

In the same way there's a committee in Britain

that's been looking at the situation here since 1969

have come to the conclusion there is no statistical connection...

But what Dylan has said seems to be sound evidence.

The International Journal of Cancer.

I hope you're not suggesting that Berne University

is likely to be misleading people with their studies.

We have different evidence from different sources.

In those circumstances, using the word 'moral' is unfortunate.

Or too strong a word?

It's too strong in the fact that the evidence isn't consistent.

The climate change committee in the Commons

has conducted a study on nuclear power station safety

following what happened in Japan.

They have come to the conclusion the Government needs to move on

with nuclear power stations.

Can I jump in and ask, do you accept there is uncertainty,

there is evidence on the one hand and on the other.

There is uncertainty.

I haven't read the report from France

but when you look at Switzerland who has looked at every child

born in the last 20 years, the population is 10 million,

1.3 million children have been part of the study.

-I think the study...

-So in your opinion there is no uncertainty.

I am suspicious. As a father of five who lives near Anglesey

I wouldn't want a station that endangers my children's health.

I don't think there is that danger.

There is a basic question here.

In Anglesey, we are losing our young people.

We see it in my constituency of Conwy, in Anglesey and Gwynedd,

we see this high unemployment in young people.

We need to consider the economic contribution

a new station would make. We have to take this into consideration.

Elfyn Llwyd, where do you stand on this?

Well, for once I agree with Guto, the majority of what he's said.

There is a committee called the COMARE Committee

which has been dealing with this work for some years.

They have conducted research around the 13 nuclear stations

in the British Isles.

They haven't found any evidence to justify what's being said

in this study.

I'd like to know the sample size of this study,

where it was done. We can all throw figures about.

But if I thought there was a definite danger

I wouldn't be sitting here saying anything but close them.

-I don't see it like that.

-You don't see any uncertainty?

I don't...

It's not definite one way or the other...

But isn't that uncertainty?

Well, you can't... Dylan's laughing, he's the one calling it immoral.

He can't prove his figures more than I can prove mine.

Dylan, you can respond in a second.

I'd rather depend on a study that's been done over several years

in 13 stations by a completely independent committee.

So, you're 100% in favour of a new station in Anglesey?

I'm not saying that this moral justification to close them,

that that stacks up. In my opinion, it doesn't.

If it did, I'd agree with him.

-Mair Edwards.

-I've read the paper.

What it says there is that within five kilometres

of the nuclear stations in France, there's twice the number

of child leukaemia cases in those areas

compared with the general population.

What it also says is they can't prove it's a direct connection

but they need to do more research.

Part of the problem with this type of research is

only a small number has leukaemia.

But, of course, for those individual it is a terrible experience.

From having all the data, collecting all the date together,

studies are needed across the world to look at all the figures.

But what would you say?

As a mother, I think it would be very difficult

to live close to a power station if I thought there was any risk,

that my child would suffer as a result of this.

Until we have more information,

we should use the research work carefully

in order to make very different decisions

considering that we need energy.

We can't be totally dependable on renewable energy now.

I know the audience are dying to respond.

Let's have the last panellist. Geraint, what do you think?

I haven't been completely opposed to nuclear energy

and neither have I been enthusiastic for it.

The industry isn't without its problems.

We know accidents can happen.

We know the power stations are targets for terrorists.

We know there are big problems around getting rid of the waste

that comes from them.

But if there's a collection of scientists, and they're talking about three inquiries here,

in France, and one in Germany, if a collection of scientists express the opinion

that there is reason to believe that there is a connection between leukaemia,

personally, let me just differentiate, the fact that it's in children doesn't...

The fact that it could be harmful to any person is enough of a cause.

-But more emotional, perhaps, when you talk about that.

-It's more emotional.

That's the point. We often use children's health for emotional effect.

But it's generally true - if there is reason to believe,

and we can't think that all these studies are done in the same way with the same experiments done,

perhaps the latest scientists are finding different ways ...

What about this word, moral? Would it be moral?

If there is reason to believe that harm is being caused, of course it's immoral.

We need to wait and get to grips with the matter,

-and bring these people together to...

-Right.

We'll come back to you panellists. Let's turn to the audience.

Dylan, you come in, since you asked the question first.

There's evidence from every direction. Why should we depend on this evidence?

Just to put this report in context, it was prepared between 2002 and 2007.

They found 2,753 cases of leukaemia around 19 stations in France.

I'll also refer to the report from Germany which was published some two years ago.

Now, that report, it was prepared on the orders of the government,

so the German government has accepted that report,

and as a result of that and the Fukushima disaster, of course,

the German government is closing every nuclear station on German soil by 2022.

And that report not only referred to leukaemia in children,

but other types of cancer in adults.

Yes. Why don't other scientists agree and believe this evidence is the kind of question Guto's sure to ask.

Come in at the back there.

We wouldn't expect any better from Guto Bebb, because he's the voice of the British establishment in Wales.

-But having said that...

-Well, Elfyn Llwyd's comments weren't dissimilar.

But I've been shocked by what Elfyn Llwyd has said here today.

Elfyn Llwyd is a Plaid Cymru politician.

Elfyn Llwyd's job is to look after the interests of Welsh communities.

What he's done tonight is look after the interests of a large global capitalist company...

-No.

-..which is completely obsessed with making money,

which is completely obsessed with building a nuclear power station

which will be dangerous, not only to our children's health,

but to culture and the language in the north west.

-Shall we give Elfyn a chance to...

-And it's very unfortunate, Elfyn,

-that you don't show more backbone on this matter...

-Right. I've...

..and follow politicians like Jill Evans and Gwynfor Evans

who have showed nothing but backbone.

But your standpoint is unfounded, weak and spineless.

-Those are serious accusations. Elfyn Llwyd.

-If I can answer just a couple of points,

I have lived within some 12 miles as the crow flies of Trawsfynydd for most of my life,

and I've made sure that if I thought any harm was being caused in Montgomeryshire,

I'd have a strong opinion otherwise.

What I said was that I wouldn't campaign against it.

I didn't say I'd campaign in favour.

Can I just say this to you. You talk about the interests of children and young people.

Do you want to see £42 million leaving the economy of one of the poorest areas in the British Isles?

-APPLAUSE

-If that's what you want, fine.

What about spending that money on creating sensible, sustainable jobs

which will be jobs for life, here on Anglesey,

not jobs for a few years, as building jobs in Wylfa will be.

1,500 people would work in the station once it was built, I understand.

But it's a matter for you and the people of... And it's not just for Anglesey, either.

Remember that this decision will be made in London,

and I won't play a part in that.

It's fine for you voice your opinion, but consider...

..the population of Anglesey - if you want to see depopulation...

..and the language suffering, remove those millions from the economy.

Right. I'm going up to the back row.

You're a member of the Caerdegog family.

You can explain your situation as well as contribute to the debate.

You may have heard of us. We live right next to the site...

..where they want to build Wylfa B.

They're trying to take half of the farm.

It's a farm where the family has lived for over 300 years.

What I wanted to ask the panel is wouldn't it be better...

...for us to concentrate on what we'll lose...

..rather than what we can gain from this development?

-Losing what, specifically?

-Losing our culture, our language.

Cemmaes has already lost a lot. I've heard Dad talk about it.

Cemmaes as a village in the north west of Anglesey...

..and Welsh was the spoken language years ago.

When I was at school, English was spoken.

-That shows the effect of Wylfa A.

-You blame Wylfa for that?

-Hasn't it kept young people on Anglesey?

-I don't think so.

I live in Cemmaes, but I work in Caernarfon.

I've chosen to live in Cemmaes, but if Wylfa B comes...

-..I will consider leaving Cemmaes.

-Right. Gareth Jones.

As someone who lives in the village, we've been to Switzerland...

..and France, everywhere, I choose to live in Cemmaes.

Friends of mine who work at Wylfa, no-one in the village has leukaemia.

I don't know if you have the figures for Cemmaes, Dylan?

None whatsoever. That's the truth. There are none.

And if you want to save jobs and the language...

..keep young people in the village, give them jobs and a future.

My daughter works in Guildford. She's already left.

She said before Christmas, "I'm not coming back."

-That's the truth and we hear this rubbish!

-Emlyn Richards.

I think it's about time... I've lived here for 50 years...

..when the Wylfa power station was built.

And we're still playing around.

We have a fantastic panel. I've never heard such answers.

It's about time...

It's about time we got somewhere.

Germany has turned them down.

Guto Bebb is shaking his head. That is the truth!

Finish your sentence.

Other countries... Japan, they've refused.

it's time we reached a decision. We're caught between two ideas.

People's health is at stake.

Yes, we need to safeguard our young people today.

-Let's keep them alive and healthy.

-You can come back in on that.

In the first place, I think the audience response shows...

..what most people on Anglesey think regarding this matter.

Secondly, I hope the gentleman is referring that other gentleman...

..someone from Cemmaes who is worried about the language...

and the future of young people in this

They do not have comfortable jobs in the public sector...

..and cannot afford to protest regularly.

The truth is in my constituency, there are Welsh areas...

..losing the younger generation and the opportunity for jobs...

..and all we hear is this bunch wanting to turn down opportunities.

Elfyn said he was with Dafydd Elis-Thomas on this matter.

What we need is jobs and a chance to develop within those jobs.

If Wylfa goes and it is not replaced, we don't just lose jobs...

..on Anglesey, we lose those jobs at Trawsfynydd.

It's shameful from people who claim to be worried about the language...

..that someone defending the need for jobs in rural Wales...

..is the voice of a British institution.

I'd rather be that than the voice of the comfortable middle classes.

We won't have a language or culture if we have 6,000 workers...

..coming here from Europe and everywhere else.

Where do the young people of Anglesey live today?

They live in Guildford and in London and in Manchester.

How many people attend your chapel these days?

Not many, I'd guess. We're losing our young people.

It's a disgrace we're not moving forward and discussing this.

Thank you, Guto Bebb.

I'm surprised that you politicians are blinded...

..by these potential jobs.

We know that most of these jobs are not jobs for local people.

The first Wylfa proved that, as there was so much in migration.

What makes you so certain they are not jobs for local people?

We know there aren't that many unemployed on Anglesey.

And there are far better ways and safer ways...

..to create jobs. The politicians have known about the closure...

..of Wylfa for years.

There are 500 decommissioning jobs, in the first place.

-There are other ways to create jobs.

-Right, up to the back row.

Let's get the microphone over to you.

If we return to the original question...

..recently Y Byd Ar Bedwar covered similar allegations...

..to the question being asked tonight.

Straightaway, Public Health Wales disassociated itself...

..from that statement and said it is not correct...

..for the reasons given by the two politicians here tonight.

They are correct. These facts do not show the dangers...

-But there is uncertainty.

-You can say that about all industries.

But if there is uncertainty, isn't that a reason to wait...

..slow down and postpone?

You know the situation regarding energy in Britain right now.

We need power stations in the near future.

We know what will happen otherwise.

We have a representative here from Horizon, Richard Foxhall.

What do you make of the contributions made here tonight?

As a Welsh speaker, I have raised three sons...

..and I don't want to see them move away from the area.

We made a decision to bring them up in a Welsh speaking community.

I live in a Communities First area and there is despair...

..among young people regarding the future.

As far as the company, we have already invested £80 million...

..in the Anglesey apprenticeship scheme, along with Coleg Menai...

..and other businesses to train local young people...

..for the next generation of engineers.

As far as the jobs, we make this clear...

..we foresee that at our busiest, there will be 5,000 jobs.

-How many will go to local people?

-We cannot say yet.

We haven't chosen the technology. There are two kinds.

-We are in talks.

-But will there be 5,000 coming in?

No. What we are saying is times have changed since Wylfa was built.

There is a greater emphasis on corporate responsibility.

We are already in talks with Anglesey Council...

..and officials from the Welsh Government...

..and the local supply chain and we are determined...

..to provide as many jobs as we can for local people.

Once the place is built, there will be 800 permanent jobs...

-..to run the place for 60 years.

-Thank you. Where were those hands?

Well, I returned to Anglesey around 40 years ago.

I did my degree at Bangor University.

It has given me a good opportunity to raise my children...

..in a Welsh speaking area.

I have grandchildren on Anglesey and I hope they will have jobs.

You have mentioned 6,000 people coming in.

It is maybe half, and we are maybe talking about 5,000.

What we must do on Anglesey is to make sure everyone on Anglesey...

..who wants a job at Wylfa gets a job.

Can I just finish? Coleg Menai has invested millions...

..in educating young people so they have the resources to get a job.

-I hope that they do.

-Right. John Lee.

I've been lucky and unlucky with cancer.

I am 100% against it and the reason is...

..I'm involved with Ysbyty Gwynedd Radio on a Tuesday night...

..and I go to the Alaw Ward to visit the patients.

Most of them are from Anglesey and the Lleyn Peninsula.

And at the moment, in the paper, even in Amlwch...

..you will see people spending money on children with cancer.

Do you see a direct link between the power station and your situation?

-I would give that a tick, yes.

-That's your opinion.

Let's hear from this corner. Yes.

I just wanted to say following on from what that person said...

..that Wylfa provided my husband with a job for over 40 years...

..41 years, to be honest.

We wouldn't have half the things we have without Wylfa.

-The events in Fukushima don't worry you.

-No.

Imagine something like that happening here.

there wouldn't be anyone living in Amlwch and Llangefni.

No, but there was another factory in Amlwch that was also dangerous.

-Doesn't it make you think again?

-No, and the reason is...

..things have happened in Russia and we've seen it come across the water.

It doesn't matter where it is. If it blows up, it will affect us.

We might as well have it here because we know the standards.

I never thought I'd agree with Guto Bebb.

-I'm 100% in agreement.

-Right. What about you?

Let's get the microphone over here.

Everyone is talking about the young people and as one of them...

..there are a number of us here tonight, we want jobs on Anglesey.

Dylan's research may suggest there are problems arising from nuclear...

..but there is other research and there will be more next year too.

We need jobs and we need clean energy.

Nuclear isn't entirely clean, but it is an option.

Briefly, the final contribution.

I noticed what was being said about certainty and uncertainty.

He said recently that if there was an accident at Wylfa...

..the wisest thing would be to move towards Wylfa.

Right, and behind you. Hold on a minute.

As someone who will lose their livelihood if we get Wylfa B...

..I feel that Caerdegog has sustained my family...

..for centuries, along with many other families.

-Will Wylfa B sustain these families?

-You can answer that.

-Richard Foxhall.

-Briefly, we have taken into consideration...

..the concerns of Mr Jones' family and we have written to him.

We're keen to sit down with him because we've returned...

..to the original plan and there may be an option not to buy the land.

-We want to discuss the options.

-I don't want to be entirely scientific.

But we might as well have a vote.

Who wants to see a new power station at Wylfa?

Hands up.

Who is against?

Well, it's pretty close. I can see two hands up over there!

I think it may be slightly in favour, but not by much.

Thank you and thank you to the panel for your contributions.

Join us again in Amlwch after the break.

Welcome back to this week's Pawb a'i Farn. We're in Amlwch.

We're enjoying another lively debate.

Let's move on to our second question. It comes from Brian Owen.

Is it acceptable that Wales is likely to lose...

..a quarter of our MPs and that the constituency of Anglesey...

..will become part of the mainland?

Brian asking if it is acceptable for Wales to lose a quarter of its MPs...

..along with Anglesey becoming part of the mainland. Elfyn Llwyd?

Not in my opinion.

The process is not a process I would approve.

Years ago, when the Borders Commission was looking...

..at making changes, they looked at the community, the language...

..in which way people are looking within a community.

Anglesey is an unique community. It's an island.

We argued that Anglesey needs to stand alone...

..as the Scottish islands do.

They are liberals and get to do so. They're with Guto's people.

-So they're fine.

-They're SNP. They're more like you.

Most of these changes, it is the Liberals who have benefited...

-..in Scotland.

-No, it's one SNP and one Liberal seat.

-Let someone else speak.

-Get your facts right.

Give someone else a chance. You might learn something.

-Well, stick to the facts.

-And in the long term, I think the island...

..should stand alone, but the reality is I don't think it will...

..because I don't think the Commission will listen to anyone.

They will have their figures and if you reach 75,000, that's it.

For example, I represent Dwyfor Meirionnydd.

They're talking about bringing in part of Powys...

..Machynlleth and the Dyfi Valley and Caernarfon and the Conwy Valley.

I think they are lovely areas but it will be 12,000 square miles.

Let's be fair - why should someone like you or Guto...

..represent possibly 40,000 people and other constituencies...

..in England with 80-90,000?

Quite simply, Dewi, it would have been considered in the past...

..because when I go to a meeting, it takes me an hour and a half...

..to travel there, another hour and a half to travel back...

..and I know people representing areas in Cardiff, Liverpool...

..Birmingham, London, they get through there in three minutes.

They have a larger population, I have longer distances to travel.

I know you're dying to contribute, Guto, but I'd like to speak...

..to the other two first of all.

As someone born and brought up in Bangor and who still lives there...

..I have no opposition to my part of the country being linked...

..with Anglesey, but I'm not sure that the people of Anglesey...

..want us from the mainland.

No? No! There we are.

I thought as much. But I agree with Elfyn.

There is something strange about this idea.

Anglesey is a unit in itself, of course, as it is an island.

And it has its community and its people.

It seems to me that bureaucracy and hitting targets...

..is taking over from commonsense.

But what about this idea of losing 10 MPs?

You could say that is an inevitable result of devolution.

We need fewer representatives in London.

Having fewer representatives in number doesn't worry me.

What we need is high quality representatives...

..to speak up for us, to represent us.

Are we short of them?

Well, most of us were furious...

..when we realised what was going on regarding MPs' expenses.

And that's when the people of Britain realised...

-..things weren't as they should be.

-Geraint, thank you. Mair Edwards.

Of all the constituencies, I think Anglesey is the tidiest...

..and it's the one that should remain by itself...

-..and not join us.

-But if it doesn't reach the right amount...?

Well, it's still a constituency that is together...

..and is far easier to administer in that way.

I think it's a problem when an MP is going to have to work...

..across a number of local authorities.

That is going to make it complicated.

And as far as some of the other constituencies...

..they are so big, it wouldn't be possible to be democratic.

I think Wales' situation is slightly different to the situation...

-..in more populated areas in England.

-Brian, what do you think?

The Menai is a natural border between Anglesey and the mainland.

What's wrong with the people of Bangor?

I don't think they want us any more than we want them!

But it is so much easier to administer 1,500 people...

..in a town than it is in a rural area.

And I think the people will lose out, not the MPs.

Anyone else to contribute on this from the audience?

No, you're pretty quiet on this subject. Dylan Jones.

I'm happy Anglesey has been red for ten years...

-..and I hope...

-Are you worried it won't be if the borders change?

-No. I'm sure we could keep Bangor too.

-Confident words.

-Yes?

-Everyone is worried about in migration...

..but maybe it would raise those numbers on Anglesey!

We're back to the previous question. Guto, what about these changes?

It would help if Elfyn was factually correct.

-Where was he incorrect?

-There are two seats safeguarded in Scotland.

Shetland, with the Liberals, and Western Isles, the SNP.

If Elfyn is suggesting the Conservative Government...

..is making a decision to safeguard the SNP, then fine.

It is a simple situation. I represent 46,000 people.

Elfyn represents 45,000 people.

In England, on average, MPs represent around 75,000 people.

There are seats in the north of England that are bigger.

Charles Kennedy's seat in Scotland is bigger than Belgium.

I haven't heard complaints he is ineffective in his patch.

The situation is all MPs will have a similar amount of people.

Something around 75,000. And to be honest, we in Wales...

..we also have AMs working in all these constituencies...

..with 20 policy matters devolved.

This change means we'll have the same amount of MPs per head...

..as in England, but we will also have an Assembly...

..which will legislate in 20 policy fields.

I can't see a sensible argument against it.

-Does it matter we'll lose ten?

-I could be one of the ten.

-My seat, Aberconwy, is likely to go.

-So what does it matter?

I think it's difficult to argue that Wales deserves...

..more MPs per head, especially as we have an Assembly.

We need a radical change. England needs its own parliament...

..and then the other countries come together...

..so there representation from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

That will then deal with the policies that affect everyone.

Just two quick points. 7.5% cuts in England...

-..25% in Wales - that's not right.

-That doesn't seem fair.

Let me finish my point. The second point...

..is we can cut the number of seats in London...

..when we have a full parliament.

The most important point is there was a speaker's conference...

..during the '40s which said Wales should never have fewer...

..than 38 seats. They're talking about 30.

The situation has changed. We have had devolution.

And we will need cuts further on down the line.

We could have five now and five later.

Elfyn's wrong on the speaker's conference too. It was 35.

We've already seen Scotland cutting from 72 to 59.

I would have agreed with Elfyn...

..had we not voted in favour of further devolution in May.

But we as a people have chosen to have a parliament in Cardiff...

..which can legislate. I think this is entirely reasonable.

There are elements of process in this.

As the National Assembly in Cardiff is strengthened...

..the need for so much representation in London...

..is sure to diminish.

And if the process means five now and maybe five later...

..people like Elfyn and Guto are in a better place to decide...

..on that process than someone like me.

But I'm looking forward to the day, I hope I will see it...

..when we do not have any MPs and it will all go to the Assembly.

Right. I think we'll bring that topic to an end for now.

We're going for a break before closing with two more questions.

Join us again in Amlwch after the break.

Welcome back. You're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn.

We're at Amlwch leisure centre. Let's go to our next question...

..from Cerian Gruffydd.

Doesn't the fate of Peacocks this week prove...

..the Westminster Government's economic policy isn't working?

Doesn't the fate of Peacocks prove the Westminster Government's...

..economic policy is not working? Geraint Tudur, I'll begin with you.

To be honest, I wasn't aware we needed to hear about Peacocks...

..to know that the Government's economic policy doesn't work.

It's obvious there are major problems.

There is a debt that needs to be repaid.

But it seems to me there are double standards.

There are two pots of money at the Treasury.

They can nine billion from one to host an Olympics for a fortnight.

They can also fund the war in Afghanistan from one pot.

When it comes to care for our people and our communities...

..services, the NHS and so on, we're suddenly hit by poverty.

And these double standards causes people to be angry.

I think that Peacocks' problems stand outside...

..of the Government's economic policy.

We have a business culture and according to that culture...

..a company must constantly expand and improve on the previous year.

And do better than the year before that.

These companies are urged to expand and to grow and increase...

Isn't that what how we're supposed to succeed?

That is the capitalism David Cameron is talking about.

You see TV reports saying a company made 5% less profit this year.

The suggestion is made that this is a sign of failure.

The company may have still made £10 million in profit.

-Thank you. Mair?

-The sad thing about Peacocks' situation...

..is that it is a profitable company.

But the debt from trying to expand and the debts from the RBS bank...

..and that they have called in the debt...

..that has put them in this situation.

That is the sad thing, that the bailout provided for the banks...

..cannot be provided for a company like Peacocks.

It will be a great loss for communities in south Wales...

-..especially at the distribution centres.

-This is a regular complaint

The Government can help the banks, but no-one else.

-Yes...

-And why can't the banks help a company like Peacocks?

Yes. It's interesting.

I've met with RBS over recent months...

..at my office to try and persuade them to change their attitude.

Regarding Peacocks, we have to be careful how we look at it.

Peacocks is an example of failure...

..under the model developed by Gordon Brown.

They haven't failed because they have failed to grow...

..the reason they've failed is they were bought by venture capitalists.

They borrowed £240 million, which was affordable at the time...

..but is maybe no longer affordable.

The reason why they did that is Gordon Brown created a situation...

..where as a company you were paying 18% tax.

If you were cleaning the offices of such a company, you paid 20% tax.

He also promoted a situation where lending companies money paid off.

What is happening with Peacocks is that a business model...

..that worked in 2006 has failed in 2012.

It has nothing to do with any policy from the present Government.

You don't think the banks should have offered...?

As regards RBS, we need to consider what we want RBS to do.

If we want the taxpayers' investment repaid...

..we must decide if that is what we want.

If we want RBS to be responsible for safeguarding failing businesses...

-..that is another matter.

-And unemployment continues to rise.

Unemployment is continuing to rise, but it is worse on the Continent.

-That proves our policies are succeeding.

-It's disgraceful...

..RBS are pulling the plug on a company like Peacocks.

9,000 jobs down the drain.

Regardless, venture capitalists were succeeding until now...

27 million operating profits last year.

-I said that.

-Well, we agree on that. That's profit they made last year.

They tried to restructure the debt and RBS said no.

At the same time, they're offering a £1.2 million bonus...

..to the chairman of RBS and we own 80% of the company.

This government is happy because their City mates are making money.

It doesn't matter about the jobs. Thatcher didn't care either!

9,000 people going as a result of this. Pulling the plug.

-It's disgraceful.

-What would you have done?

The government owns 80% of the bank.

Surely there's a minister somewhere who can have a word and say...

"We're not happy with 9, 000 redundancies!"

If Elfyn had listened to my answer, the simple answer is...

..do we want the taxpayers' money repaid...

..or do we want to use RBS as a bank that goes round saving businesses?

That is a governmental decision.

As regards the bonus, the Prime Minister has announced today...

..that no-one at RBS will receive a bonus over £2,000.

It's important that Elfyn sticks to the facts.

He received £2,000 last year and it is going up this year.

You're wrong there. Guto's talking about repaying the taxpayer...

..as soon as possible, that reminds me of the Tories years ago...

..redundancies - a price worth paying.

they haven't changed at all.

If we live in an economy where Elfyn thinks money grows on trees...

..as Gordon Brown believed, fair enough.

The reason we have problems on the high street is over half the debt...

..of Europe's credit cards is in Britain.

We based our economic development on debt.

-If that's the way forward, fine.

-So people are to blame?

-We're too greedy.

-We're just as much to blame as the government.

-It's a greedy society.

-Economic development was based on debt...

..personal debt, business debt and governmental debt.

Elfyn can try and give us a fair story...

..but he's not living in the real world.

The economy's on the floor, confidence is down...

-..people are not shopping.

-They are repaying their debts.

If you're going to talk about greed, that started in the '80s.

That's when this feeling began that we had a right to everything.

And to turn round now, Guto, and say it is our fault...

..when society was urged to spend like crazy...

But the crazy spending comes from the Labour years, doesn't it?

-Labour were in power for 13 years.

-But it started in the '80s.

let's hear from Geraint.

As Mair said, there was a change in atmosphere during the Thatcher era.

People were being urged to live beyond their means.

-And there was a culture of debt...

-Have we become too greedy?

Well, we live.. A lot of people live beyond their means.

And that puts them in debt.

You have a situation as we have with Peacocks...

..where they have been urged to go with this debt...

..and suddenly the rug is pulled from beneath them...

-..and 9,000 people lose their jobs.

-Let's hear from the audience.

Where were those hands? Yes, what about you?

I'd say Peacocks is an example of the failure of capitalism...

..when it is not regulated.

Sometimes we need to step back and take a look at the problems.

If we look at energy for example, what is the problem?

Why do we need these huge companies for everything?

Why can't we have local producers?

There is plenty of work like that for young people.

Insulating homes - local craftsmen could be doing that.

We don't need to import skills from abroad.

I think it's important we start at our feet.

We'd need the world to be three times the size...

..for everyone to live in the way we live in this country.

-You asked the question.

-Unemployment is once again the issue.

We've talked about Wylfa B, but for those who are not interested...

..in that industry, what else is on offer?

At the moment, we're sat here... I'm lucky, I have a job...

..but it's an hour and a half away in Wrexham.

I travel there to make a living.

Personally, I'd love to stay on the island and have a family...

..but at the moment, there's no work. Where do I go?

-Nothing's being offered.

-Do you travel every day?

No. I travel at least twice a week...

..and I'm also there now and again too.

Right, where were we, over here?

What's the point of saving that money if we have to pay it out...

..to people on the dole? That doesn't work.

Going back to the '80s, what we're suffering was started by Thatcher.

She wanted everyone to buy a house.

You can't blame the events of 30 years ago.

He's blaming Gordon Brown, so we'll blame Thatcher!

I think that's where this feeling came from...

..that we had a right to all kinds of things...

..and we lost the roots of society.

And that does go back 30 years.

You look back and see things deteriorating back then.

In a way, this RBS business shows the failure...

..of the Government's economic policy.

They're trying to cut back too quickly.

RBS should consider unemployment as something to avoid.

Postponing the repayment should be an option to maintain balance.

The more you have unemployed, the more you pay out in benefit.

Guto, are you awake worrying at night about the failure of this policy?

No. If you look at the statistics, compared with the rest of Europe...

..performance is extremely good.

The situation is poor across Europe. Half our foreign market is European.

But as regards Thatcherism, I know we're obsessed with her in Wales...

..but throughout John Major's time, personal debt fell...

..banking regulations were changed under Gordon Brown...

..and personal debt grew. That is the truth.

Right. Sorry, but that is the end of the programme.

It's flown by. Thank you to the audience here in Amlwch...

..and to the panel. Next week we're in Newcastle Emlyn.

Until then, thank for watching and good night.