Llanelli - Thu, 15 Dec 2011 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel tonight -

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry from Swansea University's law department.

The presenter and editor of Wedi 7, Angharad Mair.

Labour's Llanelli AM, Keith Price Davies.

And Myrddin Edwards, a Liberal Democrat official.

Please welcome them. APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn

on a very wintry Thursday night.

Before we begin our debate, I'd like to wish everyone here

and you at home a very merry Christmas.

2011 ends in Llanelli and our audience tonight has decided

to set aside an hour to discuss the issues of the day

despite the fact it's a busy time of year.

The questions have been chosen and if you want to contribute to the debate,

our Twitter and e-mail details are on the screen.

I found out through Twitter this week that we have one viewer in Australia.

It's a small world!

Our first question in Llanelli comes from Elin Leyshon.

What's your question?

I wanted to ask the panel if they think David Cameron

has made the right decision by listening to his party

instead of going with the majority

and looking after Britain's interests in Europe?

Thank you. Does the panel think David Cameron has done the right thing

by listening to his own party

in order to protect Britain's interests in Europe?

This has been the big story of the week. Let's start with you, Keith.

I completely disagree with what David Cameron has done.

He's looking after the city of London

rather than the rest of the UK.

If you want to win an argument, you don't isolate yourself and pull out.

You stay in and argue, and then maybe you'll win.

What concerns me most is that we as a country, Wales,

export around £5 billion to Europe.

500 million people live in Europe.

That supports over 150,000 jobs in Wales.

Are people on the Continent now going to buy goods from us,

or are they going to say, "You don't want to be with us,

"so forget exporting to us."

The second thing is that companies from the Far East

and the USA have invested in Wales because they see a way into Europe.

Now that we've withdrawn, I think we're in a very dangerous situation.

So despite all the concerns that have been expressed,

you'd have been a part of this agreement, and you'd have stayed in?

I would have stayed in and then argued.

If you pull out, you won't win any battle.

But if they weren't willing to compromise,

what was the point of staying in?

You keep them there until they do. You put pressure on them.

In any argument, the worst thing you can do is pull out,

because you've given up then, and that's what he did.

Myrddin Edwards, you're part of the coalition

that's decided that pulling out was the best thing to do.

We weren't part of the discussions in Europe.

I'm very disappointed with the result of what happened last week.

I don't think Cameron did enough work to lay a foundation

with the other countries before the discussions.

It's not good enough that he came back with nothing from the table.

I agree with Keith. You've got to compromise.

But where was your leader,

to make sure that he did compromise with these people?

The leaders of the other countries were there

but Nick Clegg wasn't in the room.

Only Merkel and Sarkozy and David Cameron, the heads of government.

But didn't David Cameron go into that room knowing Nick Clegg's views?

Or didn't Nick Clegg's opinions count?

They agreed before he went in, but I think David Cameron used the veto

without contacting Nick Clegg

and I don't think that was the right thing to do.

What does it say about Nick Clegg's influence?

I think David Cameron

was protecting the interests of the Tory backbenchers.

There's a saying that a politician looks after his party and himself,

but a statesman looks after a country and its people.

I don't think David Cameron has done a good job in Europe this week.

But it's not a veto, is it, because the discussions are continuing.

If you veto, everything stops and a decision is made,

but that's not what's happened.

He walked away without saying he was going to be a part

of this group of 27 that are going to move forwards.

But who's to say that he was wrong?

There are reports coming from a few countries

that they will reconsider and look at this with some suspicion.

I hear that Sweden and Hungary are seriously reconsidering this

now that they've gone back to their own parliaments.

I heard on the radio on the way here that Cameron can go back

to listen to the discussions and have the option of going back in.

We'll have to see what he does then.

I'll come back to the other two on the panel,

but is there anyone in the audience who's ready to defend David Cameron?

Huw Richards?

I don't want to defend Cameron but the big problem with Europe is

you can't have one policy for 27 countries.

Back in the 80s,

I went to Europe almost every month to talk about farming.

It was impossible then to have one policy

and that's the problem we've got now.

You can't have a policy from the Arctic Circle to the Mediterranean,

from the Atlantic to the Black Sea.

That's what it all comes down to.

If we're there, we've got to be a part of it,

but we shouldn't be controlled by them.

-So David Cameron was right?

-To some degree.

A little support for him there. I saw another hand up.

-Bill Hughes, I'm sure you'll say a word in his defence.

-I will.

It's easy for us.

We've heard from the BBC and from newspapers that support him

and from newspapers that are against him.

But at the end of the day,

there's been no organisation in Europe at all.

I was there between '93 and '97 on the regions committee,

and it was a waste of time and money.

If you didn't pay your taxes tomorrow,

they'd be after you and you could go to prison.

But in Europe, it's not written by any kind of accountant.

Martha Andreas told Kinnock that we can't sign the European results

because they're not available. That was 35 years ago!

-And things haven't improved?

-They don't do it now.

-Harri Roberts?

From the point of view of his own party, it seems that he's right.

He's played to the gallery.

But that's exactly what Nick Clegg has done us well.

He's played up to his own MPs.

I'd like to make one other point.

There are 26 countries that are willing to continue to discuss

to try and reach an agreement, but what David Cameron has done

is refuse and close the door on the opportunity

for the British Government to contribute to the argument.

The 26 are continuing without the British Government

and we in Wales, and people in Scotland,

will suffer because of that, just as Alex Salmond said yesterday

when there was concern about the discussions regarding the fishing.

Thank you. Brian Walters? Let's get the microphone to you.

But would the Labour Party had agreed to it? That's the question.

The leaders of the Labour Party are also playing to their members.

We'll ask Keith about that. In the front here, from Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr.

I just want to ask the panel, more specifically on this matter,

will the coalition have a negative effect

on what David Cameron has done in Europe,

or will the Lib Dems feel happy that Cameron has gone ahead

without taking any notice of Nick Clegg?

I'm not happy about the fact that he went ahead without talking to Nick

and that he withdrew without trying to compromise

with Angela Merkel and Sarkozy.

But even before this coalition was formed,

Cameron moved a group of European MPs from the Conservative group

in the centre, if you like, to the extreme group,

the most extreme people.

So even before the coalition was formed,

David Cameron tried to isolate himself from Europe.

Let's hear from Angharad.

David Cameron certainly hasn't done the right thing

and he wasn't looking after Britain's interests

and he certainly wasn't protecting Wales' interests.

I doubt he considered Wales at all.

So why did David Cameron do what he did?

Well, in order to protect the interests of the bankers,

the interests of the City in London, because the financial sector

is so important now to the British economy.

And therefore, it should be protected, shouldn't it?

But the Labour Party under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

pandered to the bankers and the City just us much as David Cameron.

The result of this is that Britain's wealth

is now centralised in one small corner of south east England.

That's harmful to somewhere like Wales

because if the wealth is there, all the jobs are there.

Wales needs Europe.

But what's completely staggering

is that the Liberal Democrats are still in the coalition.

If Nick Clegg had any self respect,

he'd have pulled out of the coalition.

APPLAUSE

It's easy for you to say that but pulling out at this point

is very difficult because of the country's economic situation.

You don't want to go through another election

and see the markets go crazy because there's no stability in the country.

You're in this coalition and you've to go through with it.

Yes, difficult situations arise and things I don't agree with,

but walking away is the easy way out.

As a politician, you have to have principles.

Once you turn your back on your principles, you're only there

because you've started to enjoy the power, and there's no purpose to it.

APPLAUSE

That's why Nick Clegg wants to back to Europe,

to try and restore the relationship with Europe,

to make sure that we don't become an isolated country.

We've an important part to play in Europe

and it's better to be inside the tent than outside the tent

in order to make those changes.

That's what we're going to fight for in the coalition.

-Gwynedd Parry?

-What we've seen is something very timely,

and that's a pantomime.

There are several characters in this pantomime.

The main character, of course, is David Cameron.

It was a diplomatic disaster, there's no doubt about that.

I think the situation has improved a little since then,

but it was a political disaster for him personally.

-It was one person against the rest.

-But his party didn't think that.

His party were very happy. People like Bill Hughes were overjoyed.

It's unbelievable that they can feel that way.

In this pantomime, think of the pantomime horse.

If Cameron was the front end, then Clegg was the back end!

LAUGHTER

That's because Clegg was completely in the dark.

I don't know what this definition is of a coalition.

At one time, I thought there was such a thing

as collective responsibility in government.

This man is the Deputy Prime Minister.

His reaction at the beginning of the week was incredible.

He didn't turn up in the House of Commons for the discussion.

He sulked. What kind of politics do we've here?

What kind of coalition is this?

Can I also add the point about the Labour Party.

At the end of the day, in my opinion,

Cameron didn't have much choice.

This is the economic legacy of the Labour Party,

who installed the bankers as Britain's economic brokers.

They have so much influence and status.

And of course, what did Brown do when he rescued the banks?

He didn't put in place any rules.

He didn't take the opportunity to reform the regulation system

of the bankers at all and that's what people in Europe are saying.

Of course, Cameron was right. He was right.

That's what the rest of Europe wants to do.

It wants to cut London's greedy bankers down to size.

So according to the law professor,

all of the three main parties are at fault.

I'm reminded of the words of Aldous Huxley, who said,

"We have the leaders that we deserve."

Unfortunately, it's a sad situation,

but that's how a lot of people feel, I'm afraid.

I'll come back to you. Over to you over here.

I'm sure other people in Wales feel the same as me.

I'm worried about the influence the Conservative backbenchers have had.

They're over represented in Westminster

from Wales' point of view.

They've had a big influence on Wales' future position in Europe.

It worries me that Nick Clegg didn't stand up for the people of Wales

and represent the whole of Britain,

and it's the Tory backbenchers that have had a big influence.

Elin, you asked the question.

I certainly think that as a Prime Minister,

you have to show conviction.

As a field officer myself, I work with young people,

and it's given us a wonderful starting point for discussions

in globalisation sessions.

There's been a lot of response to this decision,

but then he's shown conviction

and as a Prime Minister, you have to make difficult decisions.

Let's go back to the two politicians on the panel.

Gwynedd Parry suggested

that you put us in this mess in the first place, Keith Davies.

That's why Gordon Brown didn't win the last election.

But of course, we have Ed Miliband now.

But going back to Cameron, what's disgraceful,

not only on this issue but on other issues us well,

is that he has no Plan B.

If Plan A doesn't work, there's no Plan B,

and I don't think he's prepared well enough.

He thought he was going to have his own way.

Myrddin Edwards, you had two main principles.

One was PR and you've lost that. That's not going to happen.

Europe was another cornerstone and that's a mess now as well.

What's the point of being in the coalition?

If you think back to the election, no party had a majority

so we made the difficult decision of forming a stable government.

We now have 57 MPs

and about 70% of our manifesto is in the government's plans.

65% of the Conservatives' policies are...

So despite what's happened this week, you're happy.

-You forgot student fees, Dewi.

-Student fees is another one.

I'm not happy about what's happened in Europe

and that's why I hope Nick Clegg will go back to Europe

to try and re-establish our relationship.

We'll see what happens.

Thank you audience, for your loyalty to Pawb a'i Farn

on a night like tonight.

It's time for a break. Join us again in Llanelli in two minutes.

Welcome back. You're watching this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

It's our final programme before Christmas.

Let's move on to our next question, which comes from Rhydian Huws.

What's your question?

Mary Portas has made comments about out of town retail parks.

Is it too late for a town like Llanelli?

Thank you, Rhydian.

Mary Portas, we've heard a lot about her this week,

has made recommendations on how to save the high street,

but is it too late for many places, including Llanelli?

Angharad Mair?

It's been too late for Llanelli for over five years.

It's heartbreaking for me,

and I work in the centre of Llanelli every day,

to see the huge deterioration that's taken place in the town

over the last few years.

It's important to note that it's not the economy

that's caused this deterioration,

but a lack of vision by the people who were making decisions years ago

who didn't realise the far reaching effects

of following the fashion that was happening in big towns and cities

across Britain for a small town like Llanelli,

by moving shops out of the town and building a retail park.

It's heartbreaking.

What's happened is that Llanelli is a poor town

and it's the poorest people who are being punished

because they can't afford to over to Trostre.

And of course, once one shop goes to Trostre, they all follow.

Once you make the decision to establish a retail park,

you have no control over the decisions those shops make.

But is that park successful? People go there. They enjoy going there.

Of course.

That park succeeds because people from a wide area

go to the Trostre park to shop.

But town councillors have a duty to their own people

and the town of Llanelli should have been better looked after.

On a positive note, I have to say,

there is a revival now on the eastern side of the town.

A new theatre is being built next door to us in Tinopolis

and it'll open next year and I'm looking forward to that.

So steps are being taken now to make up for the mistakes

that were made by Llanelli councillors years ago.

So councillors, and Carmarthenshire County councillors as well, I assume.

Gwynedd Parry?

Llanelli is not unique in this regard. Swansea is very similar.

The centre of Swansea is in a poor state.

It's a disgrace really that Swansea's main street

is in the state it's in.

So Llanelli is not unique. But Angharad is right.

There's been a lack of vision over the years.

Vision with regard to planning.

I don't think anyone ever sat down

and thought about town planning in Wales

and thought how to create areas, not only for shops,

and this is the problem with this Portas report,

all the emphasis is on the shops.

We need to create towns that are social places.

She does suggest that, to be fair.

It isn't enough, in my opinion.

It doesn't get to grips with the problem Angharad mentioned,

these out of town shopping centres.

It kind of avoids that issue, from what I can see.

I'd like to see more vision and an emphasis on town centre development.

Like what? We need ideas.

It's easy to criticise but how do we move forward?

The town centre needs to be a place of leisure and socialising.

It needs to be open to children and families,

not somewhere that shuts down at 5:00pm

and turns into a ghost town.

Right, you look eager to weigh in.

I don't think it's too late. I disagree with Angharad.

It's never too late,

and I totally agree with what Mary Portas is trying to do.

There was a striking picture in the paper a while ago

of a high street around 30 years ago.

You see the butcher and the women's outfitters.

It's too late to return to that.

Yes, but then it shows a present day picture of the street

and you see Marks and Spencer's and KFC,

two charity shops and two empty shops.

That is a scene which is reflected across Wales.

But there are things we can do and I'm glad the Assembly Government

has followed the Westminster Government

in extending tax breaks for small businesses.

That's what hurts and that's what helps, the tax rates.

So if you extend tax breaks for small businesses,

that will save them money

and perhaps provide a boost for new town centre businesses.

Thanks for now.

People of Llanelli, how do you feel about this?

-Emyr Phillips, you owned a business.

-Yes, in Burry Port.

I remember at one point being able to get a made-to-measure suit

on Burry Port high street.

Now I can't even get a pair of socks there!

-Everything's moved to Trostre.

-Is that a bad thing?

-Yes.

Yes, what is your point?

The cost of parking in town,

in Swansea, is quite expensive,

and it's free for out of town shopping.

We need to change those places outside.

Mary Portas certainly suggested changes to parking. Yes.

I was going to make the same point that parking is cheap at Trostre

and it's expensive to park in Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea.

Am I right in saying that it's cheap to park in Llanelli over Christmas?

Yes. But only for a short period of time.

The county council strategy here is a mess.

They need to totally reconsider what it is they're trying to do.

David Darkin.

There was a report on the news about

the increase in Christmas shopping carried out on the internet.

-Is that part of the problem?

-That's certainly an issue.

Llanelli is undergoing change, it's in the middle of change.

They might take another five years

before the town sort of fits into the county's strategy.

We've got the coastline and the tourism centre down by the sea.

People arrive by train,

so how are they going to walk down to the tourism centre?

We need to think creatively.

Maybe there should be bikes, as there are in Cardiff.

Two people could be transported down to the tourist centre.

The problem is the money. Ken Rhys, one of the area's councillors.

I've been going on about connecting the two places for ages

via a bus shuttle service.

So who is against the idea? The town's tradespeople.

They think that people will go from the town over to there.

There's another way of looking at it.

They'll be down there anyway, won't they?

Yes but there are no unique shops there, only multi-chain stores.

The small businesses are in the town.

You can't buy a stamp down there, there are no hair salons.

We need a link from down there to the town via bus.

Put it on to cheaply connect the two areas.

Gethin Thomas, the head teacher of the primary school.

Gwyneth was talking about the architecture of the town.

Recently, the school pupils have been doing some work

on the town's architecture, looking at buildings,

and if investment had been made in the town,

it would have built and developed the town exactly

as has happened in Carmarthen. Because Carmarthen is succeeding.

There are small retail parks around,

but the people are at the centre of the town.

The town is the focus. Cardiff is the same.

We heard about Swansea,

and we're hearing about areas in the south-east

where people travel to Bristol, Cardiff, to these places,

so they can get all those facilities.

Too late for Llanelli?

Not yet, I don't think.

I think the latest development moving on,

that will be an exciting development.

But again, if we could move back and develop further,

that would be very interesting.

Voices behind you. You first. Yes.

I think the county council hasn't been fair to everyone.

If you park in Llanelli, you don't pay any more.

The county council has got rid of that.

I live in Ammanford and I have to pay,

and we have problems in the town centre, too.

Yes. Huw Richards, you had something to add.

Every town is under these pressures.

It's a fact that supermarkets started the problem,

because they have killed the small shops.

-We all go to them. Don't you go to them, Huw?

-I do.

-There we go.

But they've killed all the small businesses.

And the fact, now, that we're trying to re-correct the problem

and bring these developments into parts of the town.

Keith Davies, is it too late for Llanelli?

No, it's not too late for Llanelli.

As someone has said already, a lot of towns in Wales are like that.

I've been looking at the statistics,

because the Enterprise and Business Committee in the Assembly

has been looking at reviving Wales's towns.

One of the things they agree on is what Mary Portas did,

that you have to have a number of things.

Attractions, as Angharad said, to draw people in.

But you have to be able to have attractions.

In Llanelli town centre, is there somewhere we can have a market?

Well, there is a market there.

Someone mentioned Furnace, I think Angharad mentioned Furnace.

We spend millions on Llanelly House.

Reasons to come into the town.

The other thing that'll come out of our report in the Assembly is this,

if you drive through the High Street in Llanelli now, look up.

Gethin was talking about driving through the street.

I was going through the street, and you'll see there

that there are shops on the ground floor,

but there are then three or four storeys which are empty.

We're looking for a way to get people affordable housing.

You were a councillor before you went to the Assembly, Keith.

Have councils got it wrong, lack of vision, going in the wrong direction?

Following, what Angharad said earlier, following the fashion.

But what we're doing now, I think Trostre is flourishing.

People come from South Wales to shop at Trostre.

But what we need to do now...

But not to the centre of Llanelli. That's it.

But we need to work on that now.

You didn't have hope at the start, Angharad,

is there a glimmer of hope now?

There is certainly a revival, but it follows the fashion you see

that works well in places like Cardiff,

where there are enough people and enough shops

to support the retail park and the city centre,

and the large cities and towns of England.

Our problem sometimes in Wales is that we don't remember

that we're a small country and we have to protect

these small pockets we have, in a rural country, as well,

rather than seeing what's happening in big towns

and thinking they're right. They're not.

It sounds to me as if the audience agrees with that on the whole.

Let's move on to our third question tonight.

That question comes, if you're ready, from Huw Lewis, at the back.

Considering binge drinking will be a big problem again this Christmas,

is it time shops were prevented from selling alcohol cheaply?

Huw asks, considering that binge drinking

will be a big problem again this Christmas,

is it time that shops were prevented from selling alcohol cheaply?

I'll start with you, Gwynedd Parry, this time.

This is a big problem, of course. I was speaking to a circuit judge

who sits at Swansea Crown Court just last week,

and he said that what he's noticed in the last 10 or 15 years

is the increase in the number of criminals who appear before him

who have abused drugs, especially, but also alcohol.

After all, alcohol is a drug, anyway.

This is, then, a big problem.

I think there are two elements to it.

Firstly, this problem of availability, that it's cheap.

This is a big problem.

I think two things can be done. Firstly, you can make it expensive,

that is, getting to grips with the issue of cost,

perhaps through taxation or some other way.

-Would you be in favour of legislation?

-I certainly would.

And the second thing would be to strengthen laws

in terms of licensing places that can sell alcohol.

They need to be strengthened to ensure that it's not possible

to buy alcohol in your local shop,

in that way, making it difficult to get hold of it,

being stricter in terms of licensing.

The other thing, of course, is the cultural side of the whole thing.

You have advertising, of course, that went for smoking years ago.

Smoking has become very, very unfashionable now.

We need to get to grips with what supports this culture

that makes binge drinking an acceptable thing.

But isn't that British culture that won't be easily changed?

Well, it's a very deep problem, I accept that,

but you can take some steps to get to grips with that.

Advertising, education, of course, is very important.

But that happens.

Aren't people aware of the seriousness of liver diseases

caused by alcohol?

For some reason, the message doesn't hit home, does it?

So we have to think of other ways of communicating this message.

Thank you very much, Gwynedd. Myrddin Edwards.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with raising the price of alcohol,

because it's not fair that we punish the sensible majority

for the faults of the minority.

So no to a minimum price?

I'd like to see the effect it has in another country

before we think about introducing it in Wales.

To tell the truth, I don't think we have the powers yet.

Scotland is doing something...

They've got rid of these deals you see in Tesco or Asda,

where you get three bottles of wine for £10. They've got rid of that.

And, as I say, I don't think you should punish the majority

for the faults of the minority,

but I do agree that more awareness needs to be raised

about the effect this has on people's health.

We've seen anti-smoking campaigns,

and it's true that people's smoking levels have gone down.

But I'd like to see the same kind of campaigns aimed at binge drinking.

Not drinking, because we all enjoy a drink now and then,

but binge drinking, which can have effects on your health,

and it's also a great expense for the health service.

Huw Lewis, it's obviously a cause for concern for you.

What's your position on this?

Would you like to see a minimum price?

I think it would help, but much more that that needs to be done.

I think there's an opportunity here for all the parties to co-operate

on the biggest social problem we have facing us today.

It's much worse than any other drug.

This is the most dangerous drug to people's health.

It was on the news recently there's an epidemic of liver diseases

in young people, and a specialist doctor was talking about it.

And not only that, but it even affects babies in the womb.

It's unbelievable.

A report was published last year by Swansea University

which showed the cost of alcohol misuse to the country,

to the taxpayers.

-It's high time the politicians...

-But how does it change?

-You clearly think that the drinking culture is to blame.

-Of course.

How do you change that culture?

Well, I think each party needs to come together and work on the laws

and the culture, too, and certainly in the world of education.

Gethin Thomas again?

I'd agree that it's time to put quite a tough price on drink.

The problem is, when it's available in the supermarkets

it's considerably cheaper,

people go there, and we see the problems here in the town.

They don't hide the fact and it's in every area

because young people have the chance to access it

and that leads to the anti-social problems that come as a result.

So I'm very worried, and I'd like to see a price rise.

Gethin referring to young people. Rhydian?

I'd say that the cause of binge drinking in this country

is the terrible unemployment that's been here since the 1980s,

since Thatcher destroyed manufacturing in this country.

We see it in countries like Russia,

after the collapse of the Soviet Union, people's workplaces closed,

and people lost hope, and it's happening here.

When people lose hope, they turn to the bottle for hope.

So my suggestion would be to reopen factories and coal mines in Wales,

and give work to people, instead of just keeping on shouting.

An interesting opinion from Rhydian there.

What about that? Would you agree that a lack of hope

leads people to turn to drink?

Binge drinking is an old thing. I'll tell you a story about a minister

who served in Cwm Gwendraeth, but he came from Tumble.

He was known as Lewis Tumble.

He was giving a sermon one Sunday morning at Capel Canna in Meidrim,

a short distance outsideCarmarthen.

The topic of the sermon was "the demon drink,"

and he told the congregation, "As you know, I come from Tumble.

"We have a pub in Tumble called the Tumble Inn,

"but you walk in and you tumble out."

That was... Lewis Tumble died in 1947.

That was seven decades ago.

LAUGHTER

Yes, that is, it's an old problem.

Thanks for the story and some humour on a Thursday night like this.

Yes... At the front, here.

Perhaps the problem is drinking has become very cool for young people,

and they think drinking is an attractive thing to do.

Perhaps that's a problem,

that binge drinking happens amongst young people,

and then it worsens as they get older.

Is that true, Rhydian, can I ask you?

It's become a very cool thing amongst young people.

-Yes, it has.

-But wasn't it always like that?

Perhaps not always, but it has been getting more and more popular.

I don't drink at all, but that's not true of the people in my class.

Would you describe it as a problem?

-Yes, I would.

-That is, do they drink heavily?

-Yes.

-Yes.

What, every weekend? Going out means drinking heavily, does it?

Yes, it does.

You look at Facebook and Twitter, and all you have to do

is scroll down a little bit, and somebody's talking about

how they've been steaming over the weekend,

or about how they've been out, and it's bad.

It's bad to look at.

Right, there we are. Let's return to the panel. Keith, come in.

Well, one thing, I think, is this advertising.

TV advertising, and that leads young people.

There are more young people getting drunk now than ever before

and someone mentioned that they go to hospital now

to get treatments on their liver in their twenties,

where it used to be in your forties and so on.

But is it a new problem?

It's a new problem because of the supermarkets

where you can buy drink cheaper and one other thing I've noticed

is that some nightclubs charge £5 to get in,

then you get into the nightclub and you can get a drink for 10p.

And that leads young people to...

So the decision made by the Labour Westminster Government

to extend opening hours to 24 hours a day didn't help.

I don't think that has affected things that much.

-It's the supermarkets that are the problem.

-You are sighing.

You can come back in. Wait a minute. I'd like to hear from Angharad.

Hear, hear, regarding the gentleman who asked the original question.

There are 13,000 new cases of cancer every year in the UK,

as a result of alcohol.

There are many deaths among young people

aged 15-24 as a result of alcohol.

You were talking about the SNP doing great work in Scotland.

They have ensured that there is a minimum price for alcohol.

They've stopped a lot of the deals.

Certainly, we need a minimum price, as they do.

But it's an old problem,

and yet, looking back to when I was 18 years old,

alcohol was expensive, you couldn't buy it at supermarkets, you had

to either go to an off licence or you had to go to a pub to drink it.

We didn't have the alcopops either,

drinks that are made to taste sweet, so that children can drink alcohol.

All that has changed during the past 30 years.

This problem is much worse than it has been.

And I'm grateful Scotland are leading the way, especially

the SNP, leading the way in trying to safeguard people from alcohol.

You can sum up, like every good judge!

Well, this is not a problem for the poor.

What about it being the problem of the unemployed and those in despair?

It is also that, but it's a problem for young people,

it's a problem for students and the middle aged,

rich people, the elderly. This goes right across society.

We are all responsible for this.

We cannot put it in a box and say it's a problem for the poor.

We must look at this in its entirety and have strict measures.

As Angharad said,

we need the Government to do something about this.

We have opened the door on that debate.

Thank you and thank you to the audience, here in Llanelli.

Join us once more after the break.

Welcome back to this week's Pawb a'i Farn.

We're in Llanelli, where it is cold,

but the debate is keeping us warm.

Now, we move on to the next question from David. What is your question?

In this area, cuts are threatening hospitals, elderly services

and libraries and yet cuts must be made.

-What would the panel do?

-Cuts, cuts and more cuts.

This was a subject we discussed at the start of the year.

David is asking, in this area there are cuts threatening hospitals,

elderly services and libraries and yet cuts must be made.

How would you deal with this?

The services you have mentioned are vitally important to the community.

I don't think you need to close any of those services.

Money is short, but we must ensure that the local authorities

and the health boards running these services spend this money wisely.

The health service, for example, is going through a difficult time,

although it has had a lot of money over the years,

over the past decade, we have seen growth in the health budget,

but now the health boards are receiving less money...

-They are in debt.

-They are in debt.

Unless they get enough money by the end of March,

they will be in difficulty.

Let's be specific. What about Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli?

-Would you make cuts there?

-No.

There have been a lot of cuts at the hospital already,

such as maternity services and emergency services.

We don't want to see more services going from that hospital.

It's a hospital for people in Llanelli.

But the local health boards are not spending the money wisely.

For example, there is a problem with a shortage of doctors.

They have to pay for locum doctors and agency nurses.

There are problems in that they cannot provide the continual care

that people need and also, agency nurses

and locums cost a lot of money.

So the problem isn't the cuts, it's that money is not spent wisely.

Yes, that is the problem.

We have seen growth in budgets over the years, over the past decade.

But when it comes down to it,

Labour and the health boards didn't prepare for these tough times.

They spent money without thinking about spending it wisely.

As a member of the party in Wales, Keith, what do you think?

We've tried to rescue the NHS in Wales this past year

by giving them extra money

and I agree with what has been said, we must look at the health boards.

Hywel Dda has had £47 million extra this year.

Last week, I think they were estimating they were going

to overspend £4 million by the end of the financial year.

The minister has said there is no more money available.

But if you look at yesterday's Llanelli Star

and today's Western Mail, the health board has appointed some bloke

from Rochdale to come down from Rochdale to plan a strategy.

That's because they're not spending wisely, according to Myrddin.

I agree. But the cost of that bloke's wages will be £100,000.

That was in the paper today.

In today's Western Mail,

they're appointing someone at Trinity College.

They're going to overspend. How can they appoint these people?

-Labour are in charge. Can't you tell them?

-I'll be writing to them.

-I only read about it today.

-So what is the problem in this area?

If you look back at the history, they're moving the money away

from Llanelli to Carmarthen, even though most people live in Llanelli.

-Ken Rees?

-They're centralising specialist services in Carmarthen.

We're losing out in Llanelli. Most of the population is here.

But the days when we had a general hospital on the doorstep have gone.

Yes, but specialist services...

Prince Philip Hospital is doing well with what they have got.

The problem is the health board is not accountable to the local people.

They're accountable

to the minister in Cardiff, to an extent, but locally,

we don't have a voice as the people of Llanelli

who want a hospital in Llanelli.

-Angharad, come in on this.

-Let's expand the matter a little.

Where should cuts be made in such a tough economic time?

Cut defence. That's the answer.

If I can return to the question, this rhetoric

in the London newspapers, Great Britain leaving Europe.

-It's nonsense.

-But in the case of Wales,

the Assembly Government does not have a defence budget.

No, but the question was where the cuts are needed.

It was dangerous the way that Labour and Britain followed the US

into Iraq and spent billions of pounds, it is still being wasted.

There wouldn't be a problem in places like Llanelli

because there would be more money coming to Wales.

But looking specifically at something

like Prince Philip Hospital, we need a general hospital

in a town like Llanelli, including emergency services.

Carmarthen is 20 miles away.

If anything happens to anyone living in the town, 20 miles is too far.

But to get the best possible care, shouldn't we be centralising more?

-It's fine to centralise specialist services.

-20 miles isn't far.

It's fine with specialist services,

but when you come to something like emergency services, everyone knows

if anything happens to you that first ten minutes is critical.

But imagine you lived Aberdaron and had to go to Ysbyty Gwynedd.

Llanelli is a big town, Carmarthen is a big town,

Aberystwyth is a big town.

Managing finance, you need to make efficiency savings.

That is part of the story.

But we forget the other part of the story.

If you want quality public services, you need income. And that's tax.

-Raising taxes.

-Raising taxes.

We're the country that pays the least amount of tax in Europe,

-apart from Switzerland.

-People wouldn't vote for you!

You can't have it all ways.

You can't complain that public services are poor

-and then avoid paying tax.

-Would you pay higher taxes? No, no.

There's your answer. They wouldn't.

As long as people accept that is the choice, they can't have it all ways.

The Labour government of Brown gave people the impression

you can have quality public services without paying tax.

We all know what happened to him. Debt.

-You have to live within your means.

-You don't like Gordon Brown.

That's the second time you've criticised him.

I'd like to move on and fit in one more question

and maybe finish on a Christmassy note.

The question comes from Sam Davies.

-Away you go, Sam.

-OK.

Well, according to a survey this week,

a lot of men believe women go to too much trouble at Christmas.

-What does the panel think?

-According to a survey this week,

a lot of men believe women go to too much trouble at Christmas.

What does the panel think? Shall I start with or end with Angharad?

Men, be brief. Myrddin.

Mam and Dad are in Cardiff shopping right now

and Mam is dragging him round the shops.

I don't think he's enjoying himself.

I don't think there's much truth in it.

-Keith, what happens at your house?

-I agree with the question.

That means I don't have to do anything!

-So you're prepared to take it easy.

-Yes, she can do everything.

I disagree.

-May I thank my wife Meinir publicly for all the work she does!

-Oh!

There's a Christmas present for Gwynedd!

You have half a minute, Angharad.

I was in a meeting this time last year with a group of men

like these and they were all calm and that was because they had wives.

I have a poor dab of a husband at home and I work,

so he has to do his share and I thank him for that.

That's it. I think we'll end on that note.

Thank you to the people of Llanelli.

It's been lovely being here on such a busy night.

And thank you to the panel for your contributions. That's it for 2011.

We'll be back in the New Year, kicking off in Amlwch.

But for now, Merry Christmas and good night.