Rhyl Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this evening, Prof Mari Lloyd-Williams

who specialises in palliative care at Liverpool University,

the Labour MP for Anglesey, Albert Owen, a late change due to illness,

a Plaid Cymru councillor from Anglesey Council, Sian Gwenllian,

and the manager of the Pavilion Theatre in Rhyl, Gareth Owen.

Please give them a warm welcome. APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another episode of Pawb a'i Farn.

It's nice to have you with us.

We had a good start in Ceredigion last Thursday

and tonight we're in Rhyl - a town which has seen significant

changes since thousands of us came here on Sunday School trips.

We are in Denbighshire and the audience is full of local people

at the campus of Rhyl High School.

There were plenty of Tweets about our programme in Pontrhydfendigaid.

If you want to join in tonight,

the Twitter and e-mail addresses are on the screen.

Let's get our first question in Rhyl from Gwyn Evans at the back.

What's your question?

High schools in Wales were placed in bands today.

At the start of the week, the Government put £1.4 billion

towards improving buildings.

Will these things improve the standards of education?

This is one of the big stories of the day.

Welsh high schools were placed in bands today

and the Government has invested £1.4 billion in school buildings.

Will this improve the standards of education?

May I start with you, Sian Gwenllian,

and thank you for joining us at such short notice.

You're welcome. There are two parts to this question.

The banding, to begin with,

and I must say that I'm concerned about this direction.

It's going to create a market in the field of education

and people are already starting to ask,

in which band is this school and that school?

It's dangerous because it diverts attention away from what should be

getting attention at the moment - the development of our children

and improving standards.

Doesn't this show parents what each school is like

and how well it's doing?

The more information parents are given, the better.

Parents want to know how their school is performing

but I feel there's a fairer way of doing this.

Publishing the annual reports would be better.

Results aren't everything.

Parents choose schools not only on the basis of results

but they also want to know what the ethos is,

-what the policies are on bullying...

-But results must be most important.

Well, yes, for the majority of people.

I worry that we're focusing too much on that

and that results are everything.

Mari, as someone involved in education,

what do you make of these developments?

I think it's good that, in Denbighshire,

we don't have any schools in band five.

Schools are doing their best with the resources they have.

When you're looking at banding, it's not just high schools,

primary schools need to come into it.

But more important than all of this is the way our children are raised.

The parents determine how children behave at school.

We like to blame the teachers

but the responsibility lies with the parents.

We have deprived communities in Wales

where families need more support.

Regarding the buildings,

that budget is a third of what it was to begin with.

I do think buildings are important.

If children are in a school where the roof is leaking

and the paint's coming off the walls,

it doesn't suggest we have much respect for those children.

But do better buildings mean a better education?

No, I'm not saying that,

but it's important that we have buildings

which are modern and comfortable.

Children in newer buildings will have more self respect

and I hope that would reflect in their behaviour.

But the standard of teaching is what matters.

Exactly. A lot of factors go into that.

Albert Owen?

We have to raise standards in Wales

because there is a gap between Wales and England.

I'm not sure how the banding will work.

There's a GCSE criteria.

The schools need more A-C grades, or something like that.

They should have support to improve.

That's the second thing I was going to mention.

The parents need support.

The parents want information and that is important.

I'm not sure whether bands are the answer. We need something.

Why did we get rid of league tables? A Labour Government abolished those.

-Yes...

-And now we're back in the same place.

They are still doing it in England and they've been successful.

So Labour has learnt its lesson?

You'll have to ask the Minister in the Assembly.

-I'm asking you, Albert.

-I'm happy to give my opinion.

I was against the foundation schools in England

because I don't want schools competing with each other.

That's important. I support community schools.

But there is more than one way of doing banding

because of lot of schools in band four

do good things in the community, for example.

But isn't the danger that people won't choose schools in band four?

Unfortunately, that's human nature.

They look at the tables in England and I worry about that.

Sian?

Your party in the Assembly is pushing the creation of bands.

Over the last five years,

the standard has gone down so we have to do something.

It's fine to complain, but you have to come up with a solution.

We'll see how banding works.

Personally, I'm not a fan of schools competing.

Gareth Owen,

will banding and improving schools raise standards?

I don't know about banding - I don't have enough information.

In terms of spending on buildings,

Denbighshire will get £70 million

to spend between 2014 and 2021.

But we need the money now.

At Ysgol Glan Clwyd, they're teaching in portacabins in the yard.

At Rhyl High School, at Ysgol Bodnant, Prestatyn,

they want to spend on the buildings.

-But money is scarce.

-There will be £70 million there for Denbighshire.

Do you think that education will improve

because of the standard of buildings?

There's a link between the standard of buildings and results.

Of course teachers are important.

I was born and educated in Eglwys Bach.

D Lesley Phillips was head teacher, Alun Jones was deputy head.

It was an honour to receive that education.

Teachers are important,

but we must remember that buildings are important.

I'll come back to the panel. Gwyn Evans?

We need to improve the standard of every school,

not just one or two, but all the schools in Wales,

from the small ones to the bigger ones.

Time after time, you hear that employers are taking on students

who aren't ready to work.

We have to do something about that.

Do they say that to the Federation of Small Businesses?

Do children leave schools without the necessary skills these days?

It said in the paper

that Sainsbury's had taken on 186 students

and had to send three quarters back to school

to improve their education.

-How about you?

-To echo what you said regarding buildings,

I work at Rhyl High School and today it was windy and raining

and windows and doors were leaking water.

There's a lot of work to be done and I welcome this money.

It will go some way towards improving the buildings.

But will improving buildings improve the standard of education?

What evidence is there of that?

The infrastructure of schools, IT, for example,

can't cope with the demand of modern day education.

It's important that we have this money to move forward.

At the end of the day, the teachers and children benefit.

Yes, you in front of me.

In some areas, like Denbighshire, you don't have a choice anyway.

You only have one school. That's the way it is.

My son complains about a 30 minute journey to school.

Would he want to spend an hour travelling to school?

There's no choice anyway.

-So the banding's irrelevant?

-To a degree.

At least you would know how good the school is

and you could campaign to improve it.

That's possible.

-Yes?

-One of the biggest problems with the banding...

when Mr Blair was in government, it was education, education, education.

He was playing and this government is doing exactly the same.

In what way?

They are playing because they're using education like bullet points

to take to the press rather than doing the job properly.

A generation of children is missing out.

Every game they play, with tables, or whatever,

costs another generation.

I teach at a college in Bangor

and I see the difference in the children leaving.

The biggest crime is that while we're discussing these tables,

we're forgetting about the children.

So there's no point having tables?

Well, I don't know enough about how it's done to answer that properly.

I'll ask one or two pupils from Glan Clwyd in a moment

but I'll come to you first.

Looking back a long way at my own school days,

what has stayed with me is some teachers.

I could name three or four, I won't,

but they had fire in their bellies for their subject.

They acted as if it was the most important thing on earth.

"Forget about mathematics, my subject is what's important."

The personality inspired you.

-You don't remember the buildings.

-No. Exactly.

That person stays with you and inspires you in a certain way.

I don't know whether every teacher

understands the responsibility they have.

-Are you suggesting some teachers aren't as good as others?

-Exactly.

That's true in every field. What about the buildings?

Gareth suggested money needs to be spend on Glan Clwyd.

Does that worry any of you?

There's a lack of space at Glan Clwyd.

We have a small canteen so there isn't room for pupils to have lunch.

The classrooms are also small and that affects the education

because if you're sharing a small classroom with a lot of pupils,

it's hard to keep them concentrating.

Also, regarding the banding, I disagree with it

because you don't capture the atmosphere of a school

or the relationship the pupils have with the teachers

and the way they benefit from that.

Have you checked which band Glan Clwyd is in?

-I know what it is, yes.

-You can tell me what it is.

It's created competition because Angharad was on her laptop

and people are already saying, your school is a band lower than mine.

Is that a good thing? Angharad?

It doesn't create a good atmosphere because, as Bethany said,

the relationship between the pupils and teachers is important as well,

not just the grades, you know...

They should be promoting a close relationship between schools

rather than conflict.

Very interesting. Albert Owen, it's creating competition between schools.

What worries me is we talk young people down.

A lot of them work hard at school and they get good grades.

We have to say that. Many of them are ready to work.

But there is a link between the buildings and the teaching.

We have to improve the standard of both.

And the rest of you, briefly. Mari?

I think there's a lot more to banding than that

but it is important to spend on buildings.

You can have the last word, Sian.

The buildings in which the children are being taught are important,

but it's not the whole picture.

Thank you.

Let's move on with our second question.

A lot of money has been spent on Rhyl over the years,

but the town's image isn't improving.

Does this prove that throwing money at a problem

doesn't always solve it?

We had to discuss this in Rhyl.

I hope local people will tell it as it is.

A lot of money has been spent on Rhyl over the years,

but its image hasn't improved.

I'll ask you if that's true in a moment.

Does that prove that throwing money at a problem doesn't always fix it?

Gareth, you work here.

There's another strategy

and an additional £10 million coming in to Rhyl.

It's a four-part strategy.

Building homes for families in the west of Rhyl.

Tourism and the coastal path.

Attracting high quality shops to the high street.

Those are the aims. Are they attainable?

I think so. And improving houses and the residential areas.

In terms of Rhyl Pavilion, for example,

Professor Dominic Shellard carried out an independent investigation

and the economic impact of Rhyl Pavilion

was worth £4 million a year to the area.

Tourism is very important.

For example, Evita is playing at Rhyl Pavilion

with a cast and crew of 38.

They live in Rhyl for a week, they spend money in the town,

they pay for taxis and newspapers and so on.

People come in to the area.

-You're saying Rhyl is on the up?

-Yes.

Well, it's not down at the bottom, that's the truth,

and we have an opportunity,

with this strategy, to improve it again.

-The Rhyl young farmers' eisteddfod...

-We saw that on S4C.

People came from all over Wales and spent money in the town.

It will improve four things.

Tir Glas, tourism, shops and homes.

-Have we got the wrong impression?

-I think so.

The people are the heart and soul of Rhyl

and a lot of good things go on here.

You've spoken on behalf of the town.

I heard a few people behind me. What do you think?

I've lived in Rhyl for over 50 years.

I've worked for the Fire Service for over 30 years.

The town has changed

but it's no worse than other places in North Wales

or across Wales.

The money that's being...

It's not being thrown at Rhyl, it's being spent, we must remember that.

Are we using it wisely? We're talking about millions of pounds.

Yes, yes. I don't think it's being wasted.

I don't think so at all.

When you look at the houses

that were built in the town centre,

that's where there are problems.

Those houses aren't suitable for modern lifestyles.

They best thing they can do

is knock most of them down and build modern spaces for people to live in.

There are problems with people coming into Rhyl

in the period leading up to the last 10 or 20 years.

It's one of the poorest areas, not just in Wales but in Britain.

I can't for the life of me understand

where they get those figures from,

if we look at other areas like Colwyn Bay and Llandudno.

-Your friend, here.

-He's my brother!

I apologise. I've learned something here tonight.

-I'm sure you're also his friend.

-I hope so!

I have lived in Colwyn Bay for years, and I have moved from there.

-Is it better than Rhyl?

-There are serious problems there.

There are big problems in Colwyn Bay,

but as Harri said, we need to look at,

there are big problems in a lot of towns.

It's easy to look at the negatives.

We need to look at the positives and work on them.

I agree with Gareth's points.

And we don't hear enough of those.

Well, we're certainly hearing them tonight.

There was a hand up there.

I was a social worker...

OK? I used to be a social worker

and used to visit people in their homes.

In Rhyl there is a problem in one part.

Because of that one area, the whole town is misrepresented?

Yes, but it is the same in other parts of north Wales like Llandudno.

When I was working, I used to think Colwyn Bay was much worse than Rhyl.

When you go through Colwyn Bay, it looks even worse.

-APPLAUSE

-I agree!

It's becoming a battle between Colwyn Bay and Rhyl!

Why is one well-known shop threatening to leave?

Because of parking.

Just because of parking? Not because of the town's image?

I wouldn't say so. Prestatyn is a welcoming place.

All it will do is kill off Prestatyn

if their high street shop closes.

I saw another hand up over there.

Another girl from Glan Clwyd.

I think money can help in Rhyl,

but it is people that make a town at the end of the day.

It's the people that need support, rather than the buildings.

Right.

Support for the people in which way? It strikes me as a very good point.

There is a lot of unemployment. A lot of unemployment.

There was a programme about unemployment in Rhyl

on television recently.

We need more support to help people who are poor.

That would help Rhyl in the long-term.

So you need to bring businesses in?

Rhys is a businessman from the area. What do you make of it?

People tend to kick a man when he's down.

When people want to cover a place for a news story,

"Where will we go? We'll go to Rhyl."

People say that Rhyl is a hole of a place for because it's sensational.

Parts of Rhyl are horrible, so are parts of Cardiff and Swansea.

The problem is, sensationalism sells the place.

They are not giving Rhyl a chance, it is improving,

and the problems are disappearing.

I'm in favour of demolishing those houses.

-Things are improving?

-Things are improving.

But that golden era when we all came here on day trips has gone?

No. No.

Everybody today, whether you're in business or in Rhyl,

everybody has a frown on their face.

We have to work together with Denbighshire and Pretatyn

and go forward with confidence because Rhyl is improving.

Where were the other hands up? Go on.

We have to promote the place.

I have grown up in Rhyl and lived here all my life.

I have seen a great improvement in Rhyl.

A lot of things have been created for young people like me.

There is too much emphasis on the negative aspects

that come from one part of Rhyl.

There are loads of things.

For instance, like,

a lot of money was spent on the cinema and it is brilliant.

But will you stay here?

-Or will you come back if you go away?

-Yes, I will.

A lot of different people have come here in the last 10 or 20 years.

They are different from the people who actually come from the town.

A lot of people with a lot of problems. The needy.

They give this town a bad image.

They come here because they are attracted here

to live in the houses on the promenade.

That poses a lot of problems.

I was born and raised here. This was a lovely place to grow up.

I'm pleased to hear the young people talking in the same way.

It still is a lovely place, but these people are harming the town.

I know that you're not from Rhyl, but you know Rhyl. What do you think?

I agree 100%. I come here to shop.

It'll be a big loss when M&S leaves.

But there is a snobbish element

that I have to say exists in both England and Wales

that Rhyl is not a nice place

and people look down their noses at it.

If local people cannot support our town, who will?

And we do, as Rhys Jones said, we complain too much.

Money is being spent in Rhyl,

there is also a problem with the county council.

They provide money for projects, for two or three years,

we all know, if we're doing community work it's not long enough.

Three years isn't long either.

The small projects are financed,

and when they come to an end, there is no money left.

It would make more sense if they put more strategic finances

towards helping the good work that is going on in the communities.

There is some good work going on,

and we need to get more agencies.

And we need to encourage them to work together.

We need to get people to work together and help the community.

The town has many good qualities.

Albert Owen.

My wife was born in Rhyl so I have to be careful what I say!

The important thing is, and there's a consensus here,

money has come here,

and it has brought people together, and that is important.

Well, it has done that.

Many people are working in partnership.

They are helping the area, but I am worried about unemployment.

That is a big problem.

We have to invest in businesses to make sure there is work.

We have to invest in education as well.

But Labour has had a chance to do that during the last 20 years

whether it be in Westminster or Cardiff!

We have done it. Things have improved, as people have said.

I remember a lot of people leaving Rhyl in the '80s and '90s.

I am very encouraged tonight.

As somebody from outside the area,

I did have an image in my mind of Rhyl as a place full of problems.

But the enthusiasm here tonight

makes me think I have got the wrong end of the stick.

I'm aware there's unemployment and poverty.

Especially in one area. And we need to tackle that problem.

We need schemes to work with families in that situation.

Gareth, what do you make of that?

People acknowledge that Rhyl has good qualities.

Mick, you asked the question.

I come from a tourism angle.

That's the world I'm involved in.

People come here on caravan holidays.

We have been hearing that things will happen in Rhyl for many years.

They return year after year. And nothing's been done.

They've got rid of the fair now.

They promised various things would happen but they never have.

It's all right for us locals to know things will happen,

but come here from Birmingham

and the town looks exactly the same from one year to the next.

Are people still coming?

People have stopped coming here because there is nothing to do.

They looked forward to the fair, which has gone.

We don't even have donkeys on the beach any more!

But there are still a lot of people staying in caravans around here.

But more people are buying caravans than hiring them.

You can carry on with your discussion during the break.

Mick and the two brothers.

It's time for a break. Join us in a few minutes.

Welcome back to the programme.

You're watching Pawb a'i Farn.

As you heard in the last ten minutes it's coming from Rhyl

and they were still talking during the advert break.

Let's go to our next question from Angharad Rowlands.

We've already heard from you.

Wind turbines can be seen right across Denbighshire

and there are more to come.

Is this the answer to our energy problems?

A question there about wind turbines in Denbighshire.

Is this the answer to our energy problems?

Let's start with Albert Owen.

I don't think it is the answer.

We have to look at every way of creating energy.

We need the baseload they're all talking about.

Nuclear is part of the answer. I think we should look at nuclear.

We should also have wind turbines

and the best place to have them is out at sea.

We need to look at how to mix up different ways of energy production.

We have to look at solar and tidal energy as well as wind turbines.

But you don't want them on the land?

If we have them on the land,

every authority in Wales and Britain must make sure they have a plan.

They need to consult local people first,

so that it's not just the government in Cardiff saying,

"This is the area where they will be erected."

We need a strategy.

Local people need to give their opinion. It is important.

At the end of the day we have to have the baseload,

and we need to have clean coal or nuclear.

-So you say nuclear is needed?

-Yes.

More than a second Wylfa station?

If we reach the target of low carbon emissions then it will be fine.

We need to get the baseload right.

Wind turbines can't satisfy the need.

-Sian Gwenllian.

-We have to move towards renewable energy.

We can't carry on as we are,

unless we choose to live a much simpler lifestyle.

That is also an option.

Saving energy with better insulation and so forth is very important.

We can't forget about that.

I think that tends to be forgotten in this argument.

Yes, wind farms have their place

but we need plans that are tailored for each area.

We can't have all the wind turbines in Denbighshire.

It needs to be shared out.

We need a Welsh energy strategy

so we look strategically at the resources and areas.

So a mixture of different sources, would you agree with nuclear energy?

I am not in favour of nuclear energy.

I would not want to see any more nuclear power stations in Wales.

I agree.

I think we need a combination of energy sources.

I don't agree with nuclear energy either.

The people who complain about these wind things,

I look out of my window and I can see wind turbines,

they are far away,

but I prefer to see them than nuclear power stations.

We have to look at it from an environmental perspective as well.

What if they were a hundred yards from the house?

I'm sure I wouldn't like it a hundred yards from my home.

I'm sure I wouldn't like it.

We need to look at schemes.

We have to think about when we get energy, how we can save energy.

We live energy-hungry lifestyles.

-I think we use too much energy.

-But that is such a long process.

But it makes a difference.

All of us can make a difference and there should be an Assembly policy.

As you have strong feelings in this area,

if you lived in Powys, you would not sympathise with these people

who are now protesting in Cardiff Bay against pylons and wind-turbines?

I live a hundred yards from a pylon.

I think a wind turbine is better than a pylon,

and a lot safer as well.

I am worried about radiation and nuclear power.

You're against another nuclear station on Anglesey?

-Certainly.

-Albert.

If the wind is not blowing and we don't have sun for the solar panels,

you'll need something and the price of fossil fuels will rocket.

Unless we go nuclear, you'll need to pay more.

We have to insulate our homes.

Energy efficiency is very important.

But nuclear has to be part of our energy future

if we want to maintain our lifestyles and industries.

We have to change the way we deal with this.

One reduces and the other grows. It won't develop at the same rate.

Without wind, wind turbines will not work.

Gareth, why don't you weigh in on this?

There is a worldwide agreement

that we have to have 15% renewable energy by 2020 in this country.

We have to have wind turbines for that.

Do they appeal to you?

Yes, and no. I will tell you later.

You don't have time. Tell us now.

Turbines are normally situated in areas of natural beauty,

because that's where the wind is.

When I was in Amsterdam, you saw a lot of windmills

and wind-turbines on the beach and that didn't bother me at all.

Well, what about these out in the sea here?

No, they don't bother me either.

I've got a good view from my office window.

But, you know, with nuclear energy,

I am not a big fan of nuclear energy.

Last year there was a concert here with the Chernobyl children.

It was 25 years since that disaster.

You also have the problems in Japan after the tsunami.

I am not comfortable with nuclear energy.

There is real concern, Albert Owen.

Certainly. There is risk connected to any means of energy production.

People are still dying in the coal mines.

There are problems. The risk is there but nuclear energy is safe.

The people of Anglesey support it.

It is good for the economy and energy security.

-Angharad, what do you think about this?

-I

am not in favour of nuclear energy either.

I can't understand the problem with having these wind turbines,

they do help the environment.

We created the problems with the environment.

-We have to sort it out.

-Some people find them very ugly.

As you said, they're not as bad as nuclear power stations.

I come from Llangernyw and I sit on our community council.

Recently they thought about building wind turbines in Gwytherin.

If they had done that they would have taken over the local area.

-They would have drowned the area.

-In what way drowned?

They would drown the community.

The wind turbines they were going to install were going to be so high,

you know, like fighter jets if they were on their ends,

they would have ripped the community apart.

It true to say that they're all right as long as they are not in our area?

But if you look into planning,

there's there's so much concrete being put into the land

as foundations for these turbines.

It's easy to be negative, but what would you be in favour of?

Would you like to see a nuclear power station in Conwy Valley?

-No.

-No. Right.

As somebody who lives near Wylfa power-station on Anglesey,

I have been brought up next to it.

My children have been brought up next to it and they are fine.

From my front door I can see Wylfa,

from my back door I can see wind turbines.

The first wind farm to be built in Wales.

I'm a photographer and on the coldest day of the year last year,

it was minus six Celsius,

I went out to take photographs and I was on the headland.

I was looking at the nuclear power station working

and no wind turbine was turning.

When you need that energy to create heat for the elderly,

those wind turbines will not work.

You say they are ineffective.

Wind turbines, in the front row.

I am an architect.

I design homes with insulation and all sorts of things in them,

but new homes are not a problem, it is the old houses.

You must reduce their energy consumption

before looking at energy production sources.

So what's the answer? Demolish old houses?

There are ways of insulating these houses using different ways.

We shouldn't be distracted by the green bling.

-What does the architect think of wind turbines?

-They're pretty.

We have spent 10 minutes

talking about the importance of tourism to this town.

We are being surrounded by wind farms.

If 300 more turbines are going to be erected out at sea,

and our hills are full of them, we don't want more on the land.

Will it deter people from coming?

This will change the area's image.

If all can see when you sit on Rhyl's beaches are wind turbines,

it is not the best view.

I think certain parts of the country

are taking the burden of these wind farms.

So you don't want them on land or at sea.

I'd rather they were at sea than on the mountains.

We need to make sure we don't put too many in one place.

I'll posit that question to the man in tourism.

Will wind turbines deter people from coming?

I haven't had any complaints.

The areas they come from don't have any.

I wouldn't say they were a good thing.

They weren't around today in this stormy weather!

I haven't heard any complaints.

You get the last word.

What about water mills?

That is what we used before we had electricity everywhere.

If you think of all the rivers that run through Wales,

what is wrong with them?

Somebody must have thought of it.

Nobody talks about them.

Is anybody going to answer that question?

Micro generation is important.

A wind turbine is fine for a small village,

on the scale we're talking about, they're a problem.

We are going to take another break.

Join us in a couple of minutes for the final part of the programme.

Welcome back. We're in Rhyl for this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

If you want to join in the discussion,

don't forget out Twitter address.

Let's go to our next question, and it comes from Curtis Shay.

What's your question?

Once again this week, a patient from Britain has travelled

to a clinic in Switzerland to end their life.

Isn't it time to make it legal in this country?

Thank you very much, Curtis. Another very serious question.

Once again this week, a patient from Britain has travelled

to a clinic in Switzerland to end their life.

Isn't it time to make it legal in this country? Mari?

To start with,

we all sympathise with Geraldine McClelland and her family

and the fact that she wrote this letter

which was to be published after her death.

Us a doctor, and because of my personal and religious views,

I don't agree with euthanasia at all

and I can't see any reason to agree with it.

The problem is, if you go down the road

of having a law that allows people to be killed,

and that's what it is, and say it's because someone has an illness

and is only going to live for a week or a fortnight,

nobody can be certain of that.

I've been a doctor for 15 or 20 years

and I'm no better at estimating how long

a very ill patient is going to live now than I was 20 years ago.

It's not something that's easy to do.

The other problem is that things change.

I've seen patients that have been given a terrible diagnosis

and someone has told them, "You've got two months to live."

Five years later, they're still alive. Things change.

But if it's the patient's wish,

shouldn't he or she have the right to do what he or she wishes to do?

We all have different choices to make in our lives,

but having a law that allows that choice, whatever it is,

is something very different.

I think it would be dangerous for our society.

I think it would be very dangerous.

What are the dangers?

If you go down that road,

it's going to allow the most fragile people in our society

to feel under threat.

We live in a society today where we don't value older people,

people who are ill, or people with disadvantages.

We're perfect people and we're this and that.

We don't look after these people in our communities.

That means that those people feel that their lives are worthless

and they can't make a contribution.

Thank you, Mari. Gareth Owen?

This is very close to my heart

because my wife died of cancer a year last February.

This is a very difficult question,

when you've seen someone you love become very ill.

In the end, it's a question of conscience.

In my personal experience, I have to thank St David's Hospice.

In my circumstances,

I would never have managed without the St David's Hospice.

But there were times, especially at the end,

when she didn't want to live.

I think it's a matter of conscience in the end.

But I can see what Mari's saying. I take your point.

-As an MP, Albert, would you want legislation in this field?

-No.

A lot of people have written to me and I've been straight with them.

-You get letters about this?

-Yes.

-Asking you to legislate?

Yes, and my immediate answer is,

I'll never vote in favour of euthanasia.

I do feel strongly about this.

As Mari said, the elderly think they're in the way,

in the family's way, and this is the way out.

But we're not talking about the elderly.

We're talking about someone who's seriously ill at the age of 60.

But it's about people having the choice.

As an MP, I don't want to vote to give someone

the option of ending their own life.

I think there is a sanctity of life.

I think that's important because if you lose that...

So they can go to Switzerland but definitely not here?

I'm not happy about them going to Switzerland but...

But they can't do it here among their family and in their own homes?

I think it's wrong to have euthanasia in Switzerland

and in Britain.

We can't legislate for people in Switzerland

but we can do it here and I'll never vote in favour of it.

I'll remind you of the question once again.

Once again this week, a patient from Britain has travelled to Switzerland.

Is it time to legalise euthanasia? Sian?

I think it is time to seriously consider this again.

I don't really understand the argument about the choice,

because there is no choice.

Someone can choose to carry on living

but a person doesn't have the option of ending their own life

if he or she wishes to do so.

In some circumstances, I don't see why that can't happen.

But that's completely different, isn't it, because anyone...

And I know I'm saying something quite difficult now.

People can decide sometimes to end their own life.

That's terrible and sad when it happens.

But we're talking about something different.

Is it a sad thing if someone genuinely feels...

You know, not because of depression.

I can see that it can become a problem then,

defining the mental state of that person and so on.

But say I decided, if I became very ill,

that I wanted to end my own life, why can't I have that right?

-You have that right, personally.

-But it's against the law.

Euthanasia is against the law.

The problem is, people will think there's no point having any care.

Having legislation in favour of euthanasia

means that you have no obligation to offer care to these people.

Let's hear from the audience. Curtis, you first.

I don't see how you think you've got the right,

if someone wants to end their life,

it's not your business to say yes or no.

It's something personal.

In today's society, people don't like talking about death,

but euthanasia helps people to cope better with everything.

Can I ask you at the back?

If an animal is suffering, the kind thing to do is to put it to sleep.

What's the difference between a person

and an animal that's suffering?

There's quite a big difference.

You can respond but there are a lot of hands up.

If you consider someone who's suffering

from motor neurone disease, for example,

their body breaks down gradually.

I remember seeing a programme

about a man who was suffering from the disease and in a few weeks,

he was going to lose the ability to swallow and to use his body.

He wouldn't be living, he'd be existing.

He didn't want to put his family through that pain

and he didn't want to be in a situation

where he couldn't say anything.

Thank you. Yes, behind you?

Life is very precious

and it's the only thing we don't have real control over.

I think if it was legalised,

there might be a problem with it being misused.

I think that would be very serious.

A lot of people go through a lot pain and tragedy in their lives...

I have to stop you there. Thank you very much.

It's a very sobering issue to end this programme with,

but thank you to the audience and the panellists.

We'll be in Llanelli next week.

Until then, thank you for watching, and goodbye.