Rhuthun Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this week in Ruthin - farmer and author Alun Elidir,

Labour MP Susan Elan Jones,

a member of the Assembly, the Liberal Democrat Aled Roberts,

and the director of the Chartered Management Institute,

Huw Hilditch-Roberts.

Please give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb A'i Farn,

and another chance on a Thursday night to put the world to rights.

For the first programme in February, we've travelled to the north-west,

where an audience of people from the Vale of Clwyd

have joined us in the sports hall of Ruthin School,

one of the oldest private schools in Britain.

Our discussion tonight, on the other hand, is as public as it gets,

and you're welcome to contribute via Twitter or e-mail.

If you want to join the audience, by the way,

our next two programmes are coming from Cardiff Bay,

and the from Brangwyn Hall in Swansea,

when we'll dedicate the whole hour to discuss the Welsh language,

half a century after Saunders Lewis gave his famous lecture on its fate.

Back to tonight, and our first question here in Ruthin

comes from Jo Thomas in the back. Jo, what's your question, please?

In many of our towns,

the high street is deteriorating and losing businesses.

Why aren't the politicians in Cardiff and London

doing more to improve the situation?

Jo's question - with some passion in her voice, as a business person in this town.

In many of our towns,

the high street is deteriorating and losing businesses.

Why aren't the politicians in Cardiff and London

trying to improve the situation?

The two cohorts Susan and Aled represent.

Aled, can I start with you?

Well, there is an emergency.

That's quite clear by now.

I think the government in Cardiff has been quite slow to respond

compared to the government in England.

There was a reduction in business rates in England,

and it took two or three months for the government in Cardiff,

but to be fair to them, at the moment, they're conducting a review

of the business rates system.

A panel has been established, but it's not just a matter of -

everyone's complaining about business rates, that's for certain, but there are greater problems.

Shopping patterns are changing,

the internet is creating more competition for small shops,

we have problems in Wales with to do with how much...

Well, there are problems with the internet in rural towns,

but there is also pressure -

a planning application has been made in Llangollen today, for example,

where Tesco have said they want to build.

There are similar plans in Llanrwst and towns like that.

We as politicians have to respond, but I do accept your point.

You had enough chance as leader of Wrexham Council

before you were elected to the Assembly.

Did you feel you were doing all you could have done?

We were doing things, we were planning,

we had free parking in the town centre to try to help things,

but this new situation, you know -

the shops aren't the same as they were 20 years ago.

-All right.

-We have to accept that, as well.

Huw, as a businessman, to tell the truth, come on,

what would you do in this situation?

-Are things deteriorating?

-Yes, they are.

The town is so important to Wales. It's a part of life, for young people and the people of the town.

And I think we have to look at where we are.

Big businesses and small businesses are leaving the high streets.

But I don't think taxes and parking are everything.

-I think we have to look at...

-So parking for free isn't...

No, it's part of it, but it's not a big strategy.

The big picture is, where there's..

What we're trying to do in our towns, how we move ahead.

A big problem I see is that we don't market our towns effectively enough.

Ruthin, for example, has a fantastic place.

90,000 come in to this craft centre each year,

but they don't come into the town centre. And that's where the shoppers are...

Who's to blame for that? Who's responsible for this marketing? Who should we blame? These people?

No. It's the job of the people of the town to co-operate with the council,

and it's also important for people in Westminster and Cardiff

to work together to find a package that supports the local businesses to make things happen.

-Aled, come back in.

-Businesses also have a responsibility,

because when we tried to do that in Wrexham, the businesses themselves weren't ready to,

because their financial situation was quite... they were in difficulties,

they didn't have the resources to put the money in.

But they couldn't expect theunty council to do everything either.

-These businesses have to do...

-Stand up for themselves.

-Yes.

And that isn't happening.

Well, not everywhere.

Right, Jo, you own a business here in Ruthin, if I remember rightly.

How about it? You don't do enough to stand on your own two feet, according to Aled Roberts.

I'm a terrible person, aren't I(!)

Fair play, the Assembly has helped us with taxes for two years now,

and I only hope they're going to keep that going,

because the recession is still here.

I'm sorry, but this new government, it's still new in my mind, anyway,

hasn't grasped things in the right way.

I saw a big difference when they put VAT up, for instance.

Who on earth thought of raising VAT?

You know, you're telling people now, don't buy anything, keep your money,

you're paying me, the government, not me personally.

-That's been a blow for you, has it? Raising VAT.

-When they raised VAT,

customers were thinking it was going into my pocket.

But the other thing that's... Oh...

-We also need local government help.

-Right.

But fair play, they're all being squeezed as well.

-But...

-Yes.

-The Assembly is trying to help,

but I'm sure the London government could help more.

Right. Thanks, Jo. You've given us a very lively picture.

Susan, you come in.

I agree with you, I think the problem is a very big one,

and I think, as you said, we're not just talking about high streets.

It's relevant to the macro-economic situation,

and when you talk about the increase in VAT,

I think the British Retail Consortium were talking about

something like £3.5 billion missing because of the shops...

-What about the VAT business?

-Well, that's it.

We had to do that because your government had made such a mess in terms of the debt.

-Well, we can... If you think now about...

-Is that true?

-If you think...

-Is it true?

-I'll answer, if that's all right.

-But I'm asking if that's true.

-No.

-We had to raise it because of the mess your government made.

No... Can I answer the question, please.

If you think about what's happening now with the new government,

they'll have to borrow around £158 million more

to do what they're doing, and what you get, the projections now,

for how the economy is growing - the economy isn't growing.

You go to the quarterly forecasts, it's like some kind of fiction,

like going to the cinema to see a film.

-A pound from every £4...

-Yes, Aled.

£1 out of every £4 being raised in this country has to go towards paying debt.

Yes, but if you think about what your government... We're at it again.

-What do you think the government... They said they wouldn't do this.

-No, that's it.

-People from Rhosllanerchrugog will be watching, and they don't want...

-Come on, answer the question.

-But if you look at what's happened with the VAT increase...

-Right.

You see that people don't have the money to spend,

you see that the money isn't coming in, and as Jo says,

you see things like the Assembly's Enterprise and Business Committee

providing some ideas about parking costs and so on.

There we go. Let's ask Alun. What do you think?

-It's my fault.

-It's your fault?

-People like me.

-Yes.

-You're ready to confess, then.

-I admit it! I was driving through here,

and I saw on the outskirts of the town, Tesco. Who's allowed Tesco to come here? What's happened?

Tesco has taken out a great deal of the variety of high street shops.

It's undermined their ability to live,

so the high street shops have to discover some kind of specialism,

they have to be more creative.

But then, ordinary blokes like me have to go there and support them.

-Yes.

-The local word I was hearing, it's key.

Local people have to take the reins and manage things, devise new ways to promote themselves,

and we have to remember that these shops have to live in the winter as well as the summer.

We can all target tourists in our own way,

and we're successful, farmers' markets and so on, but in winter,

it's you out there who'll keep high street shops open,

and don't forget that.

Every time you go to Tesco and buy what you want, and maybe you buy something extra,

remember that you can get the extra thing somewhere else,

perhaps in the pharmacy, and flowers for your wife to take home, think a bit more responsibly.

APPLAUSE

-But people still go to Tesco.

-I like ordinary people and I don't blame them, to tell the truth.

-It's my fault.

-Yes, exactly.

That is, people go there all the same.

-Where to?

-Somewhere like Tesco.

No, I almost never do. Certainly never to buy meat.

DEWI LAUGHS

Yes, Aled, you come back.

Well, I accept myself that we all have a tendency, don't we, to go,

we complain about losing shops, but in the end, we're the ones who go to Tesco and Asda.

The produce is higher quality if we go to smaller specialist shops...

Hasn't there been a serious expansion of things like that?

These out-of-town developments, and this has all happened in the last 20 years.

Yes, and the Assembly is currently doing a review of planning policy,

because it's very difficult for any county council at the moment...

-Very good.

-..because of the retail assessment done by the supermarkets,

-it's very hard to refuse consent.

-Alun.

It is, and what Aled's saying, in a complicated way, very simply,

in the end, Tesco's budget will beat a county council's budget to oppose planning permission.

They're going to win in the end, and even the strongest county council can't oppose them.

That's not right, and we need some kind of legislation

-to control the power of the supermarkets. There's no doubt about it.

-Yes.

Let's hear from you, the people of Ruthin. Have you heard?

It's your fault for not supporting these small shops. Yes, come in.

They're all wrong. The trouble is that we're all too lazy.

We'll park the car at Tesco, go in and out,

why would you walk into town? It's so easy. It's the same as TV programmes these days.

I see that some programmes are cut - look at Countryfile now,

they go back and forth to the same place two or three times,

they won't take one topic and finish it,

they go on to something else and come back.

It's our fault.

Interesting. What do you think?

We only get the high street we deserve, in a way.

It's like everything else, newspapers and TV,

we get what we deserve, that's what people do, as Alun said.

We all go down to the supermarket, then we only deserve a high street,

with all due respect to the lady who's trying to keep a shop in Ruthin, we all...

-There are sympathetic noises behind you.

-Dewi?

-Yes?

We also, of course, can't live without supermarkets. I admit that.

That is, I as a farmer,

I could create a specialist brand for my farm and sell it,

but that big market, we have to have that big market as well,

so I'm not claiming to have the answer to anything at all,

but we need a balance in these markets.

Yes, Huw?

I just, the heart has gone out of town centres, in a way.

My family has just taken a shop in Denbigh,

and it's been a worthwhile experience for us

to see this happening.

We've had fantastic support from local people. I can't thank them enoughhat.

But it is hard. The taxes we have to pay,

and for a business that has just come in,

no-one welcomed us and came to see how we were bringing it on. I think we have to co-operate.

If we don't co-operate, the town's brand will die.

Yes, some other voices? Eryl Williams, come in, as a county councillor.

Should the councils be doing more, as Jo suggested earlier?

I've lost £10 now because of you!

-I'd bet them that I wouldn't speak.

-DEWI LAUGHS

I didn'tmuch choice, I'm afraid.

But there won't be VAT on it, so you'll be fine.

But the big thing is, no-one's mentioned, we've mentioned taxes,

Tesco, the tax Tesco pays, it's nothing.

It's nothing. Raising fair taxes, on the profits that they make,

and the size of the shed, that site,

that money could come back into Wales. It doesn't come back into Wales.

The taxes they pay out are too small, compared with Jo's shop at the top of the square...

They create lots of jobs, and people shop there every day in their hundreds.

That's not... The taxes for the buildings they're in,

they're nothing compared with the profit they make from all the things they sell.

-Yes.

-That's why fairness laws should be brought in, to ensure that the money comes back into the town,

to be spent on improving the town.

You don't accept Jo's point, then, that the council could do more.

I do, I do. And Jo knowself that I'm 100% behind her,

and I've brought in cheap parking for two years, 50p for two hours,

-in Ruthin.

-Right.

-I stand with Jo.

-Right, Gareth Thomas?

What's happening on the high street reflects what's happening

in the economylly.

The recession is really squeezing in this part of Wales.

We need to change the economic climate,

we need growth in the economy,

we need to put more money in people's pockets.

But on the other hand, in the long term,

I think we should have more sustainable economies

-in our communities.

-Right.

-Perhaps...

-Can I close with Jo, are you hopeful for Ruthin's high street?

I have to be.

-Yes.

-That's the only way we can...

And we have to move forward together,

and hopefully the Assembly and Westminster will help us.

There we are, a concise answer to close. ThankJo, and thank you panellists.

Let's move on to our next question from Glain Vaughan Evans. Where are you? Right at the back.

The future of Welsh-language broadcasting was a topic of discussion today

in a meeting between the First Minster, Carwyn Jones,

and the chairman of the BBC.

How hopeful can we be after the announcement

that Wedi 7's North Wales office will close soon?

Thank you, Glain. Our second question tonight,

the future of Welsh-language broadcasting was a topic of discussion today

between Carwyn Jones and the BBC chairman.

But can we be hopeful, having seen the announcement we saw this week,

that Wedi 7's North Wales office will close?

Thank you, Glain, for your question. I'll turn to Alun first, if I may,

-as the broadcasterel tonight.

-Thanks very much.

We have to be hopeful,onest.

As the new chiefutive, Ian Jones, suggests today in the Daily Post newspaper,

he is very confident that the new arrangement between S4C and the BBC will work.

It at least gives us some kind of certainty over five years.

We have to remember,

in relatingNorth Wales service Tinopolis had,

yes, they're going to have to close and office,

because Wedi 7 as a programme has ended.

But new programmes will be made as partthe broadcasts

from March 1st onwards.

-But no office in North Wales, it seems.

-No office in North Wales.

-Is that a loss?

It is a loss, but North Wales, and Caernarfon in particular,

are keeping their service, luckily, with people like Cwmni Da,

who have a positive influence on the local economy, the media, that's acknowledged.

It is a shame that S4C

will no longer have many companies anywhere else in Wales.

Therefore it's hard to keep that variety of representation

when you have the centralising in Cardiff in particular,

but Tinopolis, I wish them the best.

They're going to get a budget of £8 million now

to provide new daytime and evening programmes,

which sounds like a lot of money.

-A very respectable sum.

-It's not, I can assure you.

For what it costs to make television programmes,

they're doing it on very little, and we as the Ffermio crew...

But in this age of scarce money, do we have to accept that there'll be cuts and programmes won't be as good?

That's true, and I hope the programmes will keep their standard,

and that's one of the most important things Ian Jones has said,

that the audience will be the most important, and you have to take the responsibility.

The audience has lots of responsibility to this new service,

and let Ian Jones and the people down in Cardiff who have perhaps been insulated for years,

to pay attention to what you want on your channel.

Because this channel is important, not because it's entertaining,

but it's central to our culture, and it's important that we persuade the BBC of that.

-Is the channel attractive, or do people take their remote, "I'm sorry..."

-Not at all.

We want entertainment, we want information, we want a variety of programmes, we want documentaries,

we need it as we're a big country in a small one.

-Would another channel turn it all off?

-You wouldn't get it in Welsh.

-Susan.

-Yes, thanks for your question.

I think the situation's a very worrying one.

I remember last year, when lots of us were campaigning for S4C,

and I remember at one time, Cymdeithas yr Iaith campaigners

were on top of the S4C building down in Cardiff,

and I remember the banner they had - it said, "Wake up."

And to be honest, I think sometimes that we haven't woken up

to what's happened to broadcasting in Wales.

If you look at what's happening to the budget,

they've had a cut in the BBC budget, but S4C has had a much larger cut,

and I think the situation, I still think some things have improved,

but the situation is still very fragile for S4C,

and I think a situations shows us just how fragile it is

for broadcastingles, and to be honest,

I believee to think that this is a very serious situation,

-I hope things will improve...

-Right.

..but to be honest, we have to have news and programmes from North Wales and...

There will be news contributions to ensure that, and Pawb A'i Farn will still come to North Wales,

if that's any consolation.

Glain, come in, if you will, with your opinion on S4C.

I think there should be more variety of programmes on S4C,

because moment there are too many of the same programmes

being shown lots of times one after the other,

and not so many things, especially for young people -

there are no programmes for people in the age group from 13 to 18.

How much S4C do you watch, Glain?

-Not much.

-How about your friend?

I don't think there's enough variety of programmes

to attract people to watch the channel.

You need different kinds of programmes

so the channel appeals to everyone not just have a few programmes.

It is difficult. Let's have someone else.

Let's have the microphone over there. It has to be everything to everyone.

That's the problem. We have one Welsh channel

and we're trying to please everyone.

It's impossible. I agree, there are a lot of repeats.

But it surprises me these television companies say

they're going to keep standards but their budget's being cut by 20%.

How can they do it? How will they maintain standards with 80%?

That's the challenge. Doing things to the same standard with less money.

How about you?

I'm sad to hear that Tinopolis is closing its North Wales office.

People who work there have their roots in North Wales.

-We're going to miss that.

-Do we need an office to do that?

People from South Wales will come up then to report on the north.

I think that's a mistake by Tinopolis.

In front of you here, let's have the microphone.

It is sad that Tinopolis is moving.

But there has been a time

when the majority of the work was to be had in the north.

We need a balance.

I don't think it's very important where the base is situated.

What is important is the standard of programmes that will attract

more people to watch them rather than having repeat after repeat.

Although I enjoy the game, it's time to stop showing rugby on S4C.

We need less of it.

That is a controversial topic.

Saturday night is a very boring evening unless they like sport.

But they attract a lot of viewers. I think that's why S4C broadcasts them.

-They have high viewing figures. Is that a reason?

-No.

That's not enough of a reason?

But if they have high viewing figures, they're obviously popular.

Yes, they attract viewers but look at the audiences

that watch the matches compared with Ireland.

When those clubs play you get 20,000 watching.

The answer is, they stay at home and watch them on S4C.

-That affects the clubs.

-But someone here was applauding you.

I should think that the majority of the audience

that watches S4C on a Saturday evening are the older generation.

The youngsters are out.

All they get on a Saturday night is rugby and repeats.

The audience don't want so much of it.

How about the youngsters here?

Have you got an opinion on S4C, pupils of Bryn Hyfryd?

I think rugby targets a lot of young people.

-I don't think you should get rid of it.

-You'll watch the rugby?

-Yes.

I'll watch it too.

-What about it?

-No.

-No rugby?

-Not at all.

I like watching rugby. I play it as well so...

How about other programmes? Does anything interest you?

I don't watch a lot of S4C to be honest.

I agree with what Glain said about not enough variety.

I agree with that.

When I switch S4C on I don't see a lot I want to watch.

-But if the rugby is on I will watch it.

-How about Teulu on a Sunday?

I'm not saying anything!

Is the camera coming down one?!

I won't put Gaynor in a difficult situation. Aled, come in on this.

Alun Ffred Jones was calling for Welsh broadcasting to be devolved.

How about moving the HQ to somewhere else?

That's a question for every establishment in Wales.

There is a tendency for every establishment in Wales

to have its HQ in Cardiff.

We have an opportunity now with Ian Jones.

He's worked outside of Wales for many years

and maybe he'll have some ideas.

-I think it's stale.

-What, S4C?

-Yes.

To be fair, the same complaints are made about the BBC

and ITV on Saturday nights.

I don't think that's just a problem for S4C.

But S4C has to have a wide ranging appeal.

It's quite interesting to hear what the young people

are saying about sport.

A lot of non-Welsh speakers watch programmes like Sgorio

and the rugby.

That's important to the channel as well.

They have to appeal to more than the core audience of 600,000 people.

-But it's important to keep that.

-Oh, yes. It's important we keep them.

You're not going to keep them

with just Noson Llawen and Dechrau Canu Dechrau Canmol.

Huw, you've been away for a time travelling. Do you watch it?

I record Pobol y Cwm and I'm shocked at Denzil's death! It's important...

I remember Ffalabalam, my children watch Cyw.

It's all part of growing up.

It's something that we have to make sure we keep them.

We have an opportunity with Ian Jones.

We have to look at the BBC and see what we can get from them

to make our channel better.

They do things that we can learn from

and put into S4C to improve the standard of television in Wales.

So you see this partnership with the BBC has something positive?

The budget has been cut so we have to look at how to slice up the cake.

If we can use the BBC we might as well use it.

Alun.

We shouldn't be too paranoid about it

because there are people from the Orkneys who watch Ffermio.

We have things people outside Wales want to watch

so we have to look outside Wales and insist on attention.

Wales is important to the world.

We have to feel like that about our channel and think that way.

With those words, we'll being this part of the programme to an end.

Join us in Ruthin in a few minutes.

Welcome back to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn

which tonight comes from Ruthin.

Let's move on to our third question which is asked by Clwyd Spencer.

What's your question?

Is the British Government right to insist that a single home

shouldn't receive more than £26,000 in benefits?

There we go, one of the biggest topics of the new year.

Is it right to insist that a single home shouldn't receive

more than £26,000 in benefits a year? Huw, let's start with you.

Um, I don't think it's right.

It's important to have a fair system that supports people

who want to go back to work.

It's not right that people who work every day receive less

than people who sit at home who can work.

It's important we tackle that immediately.

Let's get this straight. You do think the government is right?

No, No. I want a fair system without caps.

Every individual should be looked at individually.

So you're happy to see people earning more than £26,000 in benefits?

It depends on their situation.

If there's a fair system, and that's what I'm asking for,

in force, that measures and can be transparent, that is fair, I think.

-Susan?

-Well, I think work has to pay and that is important.

But if you heard the debate yesterday from Westminster,

I think the most interesting debate

was the one about homes and the housing benefits.

To be honest with you, if you think about it,

the majority of people who receive housing benefit in Britain work.

We have to think more and more

about what to do with the money.

Not giving it to the people but to the homeowners.

That's something we have to do something about.

The new government had the opportunity to draw up

further regulations but they didn't do that.

Labour wanted it done, Plaid Cymru wanted it done,

some of the Lib Dems wanted it done, but the government didn't listen.

You were happy to vote against the £26,000 cap?

We were thinking about the current housing benefit situation.

That's why people are talking about it.

The current rules state you have to have a house

that is in the 30% band...

I'm eager to keep this to the £26,000 cap.

You're more than happy to go against that?

No. What I was saying was about the housing.

I don't want to be in the situation where 20,000 people in London

are homeless and then who will have to pay for them? The county council?

It's worse than that. They're all going to move to the poorest areas.

Where are they? Somewhere similar to areas in north Wales.

If this capping goes ahead, the relocation that's going to happen

will mean ghettos of poor people in areas where they're all on benefit.

Yes, there is a problem with the benefits system.

If we believe what we read in the tabloids,

they say 200 families costing £12 million.

They're scare stories. They're the extremes.

-Some are factually correct.

-Some of those families have 13 children.

Iain Duncan Smith reminds us

many of them are Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

-Isn't there a racist element here?

-You don't want to cap £26,000 either?

-No.

-Are you happy to see people receive more than that?

I want the people to be able to live,

I don't know what the equivalent wage is here, but it isn't £26,000.

-That's the British average.

-But isn't £26,000 a good wage?

-We need to raise the minimum. This is keeping the poorest, poor.

-Susan.

I'm not against the idea of a cap but what I need is a fairer system.

So you're not against the cap? You voted against it.

I'm not against the idea of a cap. But we need a fairer system.

If we get the system the government wants

we'll have a lot of homeless people who work but are homeless.

That's not fair at all.

As Alun says, you can't have people living in Wales's rural areas

and working in London. That's not real and won't work.

Alun, I'll come back to you. Clwyd?

That £26,000 sounds like a lot of money to me.

I agree with those on the panel who say we need a fair system.

To receive the £26,000 you have to be earning £35,000 with tax

and everything. Jobs that pay £35,000 are....

They mean to every home, so that's two wages.

I'm trying to raise four children on less than that.

-There is sense in everything.

-How about you?

-You were shaking your head.

-I agree with Clwyd.

The housing benefit problem started with the Tory government

and then the Labour government did nothing about council houses.

If we still had council houses we wouldn't have to house people

in £2 million mansions in London.

This whole attitude of 'what I deserve from the state'.

Fine, give people £26,000, but as tax payers

we have to expect something in return.

They have to make sure their children go to school,

that they are law abiding and everything else.

£26,000 in Wales is more than enough for a family to live on.

-Esmor Davies.

-After Christmas we needed three or four men.

Those men wouldn't start working for less than £340.

That's the wages they wanted. They had that when they were out of work.

That's wrong. That's £510 a week. There's no sense in it.

I didn't pay £340 a week and they refused to come to work for us.

There's high unemployment in this country and it's disgraceful

that people are offered £26,000 for doing nothing.

-Behind you.

-The same as Esmor said.

The country says they want people back to work.

They want the economy going.

If you're going to make it possible for a man, woman and three children

to stay at home doing nothing, and give them £26,000 a year,

I wouldn't get up in the morning.

They won't get the money. That's the new system.

But there are ways around these systems.

-What will make you get up and work hard.

-You're saying that's too much?

-It's too much.

-Huw Williams?

-Where do you stand on this?

-I think it's very unfair.

We work seven days a week, me and the wife.

To see figures like that...

I've got four children and it's disgraceful they receive

so much money.

The system is wrong. The people aren't to blame, the system is.

-The system needs to be sorted out.

-It was the Labour Party system.

-The Labour government has left us in this mess.

-I don't think so...

It has to be.

If you go back to the housing benefit history,

it's the Tory government in the 90s.

But you agree that it was expanded when Labour were in power?

What we need now is, just as the audience has said,

many people work hard and that includes people in London

-who have to have...

-But this what the opinion polls say.

People aren't happy that this is available.

But I think that the most important thing now is to have

a fairer system and to have more people in jobs.

That's important.

Aled, I am coming to you. Two in the back.

Right, the microphone is there.

Both of you. Don't look at each other!

I don't know. It's more complicated than we can sort out tonight.

It doesn't make sense to me that there

isn't an incentive for some people to get up in the morning.

-You have to have something to keep you going.

-Beside you?

I agree. If they're going to receive that much money

they aren't going to get up in the morning.

-There's no point in them doing it.

-Aled Roberts.

We all want a welfare state

but we've lost control of the welfare system. That's the problem.

We don't want to see poverty coming back

but the welfare bill doubled under the Labour government.

That's the problem we have

and that's why the country is in such a state.

There are fewer of us working and more on pensions.

The system is sustainable. I agree.

We must have a cap of some sort but there are problems

with the plans being put forward in Parliament.

But you are in favour of a cap? The only one on the panel, £26,000.

That £26,000 has come about after people asked

what the British average wage is.

That average wage is £26,000.

It's £35,000 really but you bring £26,000 home.

I don't think it's fair that people have to work and get less money

than those who work.

We don't want poverty but we need to control the situation.

But you're targeting the weakest people in communities.

People who could be out on the street.

There are two problems with this, with the bill

that's currently in Parliament.

One, we aren't dealing with large families.

There are many large families where the children have been raised

in the current system.

Also, there's a problem in areas of high rent.

I admit that if we look at the system as it is,

there will be a problem with these high rent payments

-in areas like London.

-But on the whole, well done Iain Duncan Smith?

I think that it's a good scheme but more work needs to be done.

Let's get Huw first then you, Susan.

We are raising children who don't want to work.

That's not a good situation to be in.

We need to change that attitude.

That's why the system has to be completely fair,

completely transparent so that people understand

we want them to go out to work.

When I left school, I used to work while in school

because I wanted money.

I speak to some children now and they don't want to work

because their parents who are on this system, don't work,

-they take advantage and don't go to work.

-Susan?

Aled says there is a problem in some of

the most expensive areas when it comes to rent.

His party didn't do that yesterday, apart from a few rebels.

I'm a rebel.

That's what you're saying tonight.

When you talk about the welfare state, to be honest,

when the Lib Dems talk about it they always mention the tax credits.

What I think is, the tax credits have been important for us

because tax credits have been important to those people who work.

-Do you agree that something needs to be done immediately?

-Yes.

I agree. This culture of not working,

the children never seeing their parents work,

that is another matter.

The question that will be asked is, where are the jobs?

I think we'll leave it there with Alun's comments being applauded.

Joins us for the third part of the programme in a few minutes.

Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Ruthin.

In the third part of the programme,

let's have our next question asked by Dewi Vaughan Jones.

The Welsh Government's consultation period on organ donation

finished this week.

Does the panel agree that presumed consent is the right way forward?

Thank you for your question.

The consultation period is over,

do you agree that presumed consent is the way forward?

-Aled Roberts?

-Yes.

There we go. That's your most succinct answer for months, Aled!

It has been a policy for us as a party since 2009.

We had a discussion in our conference

and it was in the manifesto I stood with in May.

-We are very clear on the situation.

-No doubts at all?

A question has been raised which is, what's being called, a soft opt-out.

If the family has the right to question after the death,

one of the matters that needs to be discussed

after the consultation is whether there is a soft opt-out.

The original plan that the government put forward included that

but the minister changed her mind during the time it was announced.

So you're happy with what's being offered,

depending on what comes after the consultation.

We have to do something.

In the end, too many people are on the transplant list.

Can I turn to you, Dewi, you asked the question.

Have you got a strong opinion on it?

I think it should be the individual's right

if they want to give their organs.

I know there's a problem with not enough being donated

but I think more information should be given to people.

Going back to rugby, over the last few weeks

they've been advertising the Six Nations championship

and Mike Phillips' programme nearly after every other S4C programmes.

If they gave half of the advertising time

to give people information, allow people who have received organs

to talk about their experiences,

let doctors tell people how to get a card,

I'm sure you'd get more on the donor list.

But you don't want a change to the system where the government decides?

You're not in favour of that?

But the individual will have the same rights.

The only thing you have to do, is say you don't want it to happen

-if you don't want to.

-What's wrong with that?

What I say is, under the new system we don't own it.

But if you feel so strongly about it you can tell them, I don't want to.

I think there is a basic opinion for the individual's rights.

There's too much of the big brother interfering? Your hand was up.

I think that we have the right.

All we need to do is sign that we're against it.

That's how we show we don't want it to happen.

-You're happy to see the change?

-Yes.

-Yes, you.

I just told Rod during the advert break that Aled Roberts

was talking sensibly and now I've just been disappointed!

I disagree. I don't think that my body belongs to the state.

I want to make the decision.

Like Dewi said, I don't want to take it for granted

that they own my body.

We might as well be living in Russia.

But Aled will tell you that organs are scarce and we need them.

But in Wales, this is one of the best places in the world

for donating organs. We just need better advertising.

-We are among the highest in Europe as it is. How about you?

-I agree.

I think it should be a personal choice.

Politicians interfere in our everyday lives as it is

and I don't want them to interfere once we're dead.

We should be given the choice.

The enthusiasm we have in the current system

should be given to a company to promote this choice.

The type of scheme Dewi had in mind? You were shaking your head here.

I'm sure there are many people like me who are more than happy

to give their organs.

They can take what they like, They'll be no good to me.

If it's any use to anyone else, they're welcome to it.

How about you?

It would be interesting to find out how many people

here are on the organ donation list.

-Rod Williams?

-May I disagree with the two brothers from Llandyrnog.

I want to agree 100% with Aled.

The government should have the right,

they're no good to anyone else.

Hywel Richards?

I was looking at the humanitarian side of it.

I don't see any sense in these waiting lists.

I'm quite happy for anyone to have any of my organs.

But saying that, I've been smoking cigars for 20 years.

And your eyes look a bit odd too!

-Alun Elidir, cone in on this.

-I am totally in favour.

I think it's a social responsibility for us to look out for each other.

It seems that every policy up until now to try

and be responsible by saying we're going to,

I remember ticking the box when I had a new driver's licence.

People know how I feel.

What about this idea Dewi opposes, big brother watching.

No, no, no. This is little brother because we're forward thinking.

The Welsh Government has come up with this,

it won't happen anywhere else.

We should be glad that a devolved country has introduced this.

What concerns me is that the NHS won't be able to cope with it.

They'll lose an organ or given the wrong organ to the wrong person.

-Doctors in Ceredigion don't have any faith...

-You don't either! Susan.

I've changed my mind on this.

I read an article by Kidney Foundation Wales saying that

one person in Wales dies every week

because there isn't an organ available.

If you think of it that way,

every Thursday night we watch Pawb a'i Farn.

If you think about it, when we watch Pawb a'i Farn next week

someone will have died. That's not right.

If you oppose it, we're right to have this soft opt-out.

I think that is right.

If you don't want to, if your family doesn't want to,

that's how flexible the system will be.

If you feel strongly about it, just say so.

I don't want a situation where someone dies every week.

It's not party political, I think it's a moral matter.

-If you don't want to, you don't have to.

-Huw.

There are two sides to this and they need to be respected.

I look at it as a father.

If my child needs something I'd hope someone could help us.

If you want to opt-out it's easy enough to do so.

It's just ticking a box, that's all they're asking.

If it gives something back to an individual's life,

it's a good thing.

Have you been convinced?

People are under the impression I don't agree with organ donation

but I do. Everyone should. That's not what I'm saying.

I object to the way the organs are given.

Everyone should be more than willing to give their organs.

There is a way to do it.

There we go, I'm afraid I'll have to end it there.

We had two very strong arguments.

Many thanks to the audience here in the Vale of Clwyd.

It's lovely to have your company once again and to you too, panellists.

Next week we'll be in Cardiff Bay in the Senedd building.

Until then, goodbye.