Caerdydd Pawb a'i Farn

Bearing in mind the cuts to public spending

and the fragile state of the economy,

isn't it time the government tried to end the enormous bonus payments to bankers?

You used to be a prominent player in the financial sector, if I may say so, Carol.

How would you respond to that question?

I would respond by saying there are two types of banks.

One is the type has been bailed out by the government

and we as individuals own those banks.

We're talking about the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds,

they find themselves in that situation.

The other banks haven't been bailed out by the government.

I'm certain that banks that have been bailed out

by the government shouldn't be receiving the same salaries

that the private sector can offer to these people.

I think the other point is that bankers' bonuses haven't come down yet.

They've started coming down but they haven't come down enough to reflect our economic situation today.

When 2008 happened,

I remember saying at the time that we faced a difficult 10 years.

An extremely difficult 10 years to pay back the debt.

Three years into those 10 years,

I think we face another 10 years of it.

-It's as bad as that?

-It's as bad as that.

That's a downbeat start to the programme.

The truth is that for the banks that are not government owned,

I think the payments will come down and the market will see sense.

Forgive me for interrupting but am I right in understanding that

if that bank belongs to the taxpayers, RBS and Lloyds,

that there should be no bonus payments?

But you're happy to see the other banks handing out these enormous payments?

The truth is they won't be getting them.

I was at an event in London last night and the mood was muted,

some people had lost their jobs.

The truth is that the banking sector is making cutbacks.

Many people my age have lost their jobs

and they're unlikely to get another job.

But in principle, it's fine for them to receive these payments?

What's his name? Diamond who runs Barclay's, it's fine for him to get three or four million?

Wait a moment.

I am trying to make the argument that the market is on top of the situation.

There aren't many jobs out there.

The argument that's being posited is that we need to pay a fortune

to Stephen Hester because to get the best people,

we need to pay a premium.

Is that true?

That has been the case but I think things have changed.

The government has the right to set the salary

of employees of publicly owned banks.

Thank you, Carol.

Bethan Jenkins?

I think it's totally daft that people are getting such large bonuses in the City.

Do nurses get bonuses for saving lives?

Do teachers get bonuses for teaching effectively? No.

We need to get to grips with this situation

and it's hypocritical that Labour is criticising the Tories for the process,

because they set the system in place in the first place.

We need to put a stop to the City culture.

But these are the people bringing in big money to the country,

a million here and there won't make much of a difference.

I tell you what, the people who get these bonuses in the City

from banks that haven't been bailed out by the government pay a lot of tax.

And in this country we collect taxes, and the City of London,

and we need to be careful...

-They contribute to the economy, Bethan, and deserve the money.

-No.

-I'm not saying that.

People in my region, people in this city are losing their jobs.

Take Peacocks as an example.

What right do these people have to insist on millions of pounds

more than thousands of people who work hard every day?

Felix Aubel, as a Conservative, how would you respond to that?

It's all very well for Bethan to play to the gallery.

-It sounds good but economically...

-That's unfair, it's her opinion!

The truth is if the bankers succeed in making profit for the company,

they deserve to be rewarded.

What I do object to is the fact that some of these bankers

have received bonuses

that their record at the bank simply doesn't justify.

Reward success and punish failure.

It was the attitude in the old industries

that were nationalised in the 1970s.

I remember Sir Monty Finniston, the head of British Steel, saying,

"I'm pretty happy because the steel industry has only lost £300 million this year."

That's the same ethos that some of these bankers have.

They haven't succeed so they don't deserve the bonus.

If they succeed, they deserve it.

-How do we measure success?

-If they increase the company's profit.

And if that happens, they deserve a little million here and there?

At the end of the day, you need to offer people incentives

or they will move to another country to make money.

-Is that true?

-This is public money, especially with RBS.

This is government money, public money.

-So no, they shouldn't get those bonuses.

-That's the difference.

In the banks that have been bailed out like RBS,

the government should set strict guidelines

and it's Gordon Brown's fault that when he helped some of these banks,

he didn't set strict enough guidelines

like the French government did.

In the private banks, I can't see how the government

can interfere but it's daft to award big bonuses to people

who haven't made profit for the bank.

I must ask you Carol, would these people leave Britain

if they didn't get these big payments?

-No, there's nowhere for them to go.

-So that's a false argument.

People should realise that there's a lot of nonsense about Frankfurt

-and these other places.

-America?

New York is another matter completely

but it isn't at the centre of the world.

It's morning here when the sun goes down in the far east.

We're up and working when New York is opening up.

We're in between, here.

-They won't go anywhere and there's nowhere for them to go.

-Gareth Huws.

We're looking at this in a skewed way.

You can't get rid of someone's bonus.

That's not what's wrong in this country.

What's wrong is that we're not taxing people effectively enough.

Income tax hasn't gone up in years. There's no tax on wealth.

There isn't a tax on mansions.

You could change the focus altogether.

The question was about cuts.

That's all people are talking about is cuts.

Cutting down on public spending.

Nobody is talking about raising tax in order to pay off the debt.

That's what we should do.

And that's where Felix's party is lacking,

they've only got one tactic and that's to cut, cut, cut.

Do you want to go back to the time

when Denis Healey was chancellor of the exchequer

and people on the highest incomes saw 90% of their incomes

go and tax and what you got was a brain drain.

People left the country and you lived in a system where

industries had been nationalised and the economy was running at a loss.

You can't ignore profit and the only way you can maintain profit

is to incentivize and keep taxes low.

Every country in Europe and America is trying to cut taxation.

-Respond, Gareth.

-We've had low taxes over the last 10 years.

Tell that to these people! Tell them that taxes are low.

We've had low taxes over the last 10 years and what's the situation?

The economy is stagnant.

Tell that to people who are struggling to hold things together.

People are paying too much in taxes, rather than not enough.

We will return to the panel. Luned, you asked the question.

-What do you think?

-I think there are two things.

The panel has split banks into those which have been bailed out

but they aren't the only ones to blame for the financial mess

we're in at the moment.

It's the responsibility of the financial sector in general

to make sure that debt and the damage done to society

and the cuts we've had to make as a result are all paid back.

One way of doing that, the best way is as Gareth said, taxation.

But we shouldn't just tax the people.

One tax which is really popular and the panel hasn't mentioned,

which is supported by ordinary people across the country, is the Robin Hood tax.

It is a very small 0.5% tax on those financial transactions

between bankers at the highest level.

It could raise billions worldwide

And solve problems of poverty in this country and abroad.

Let's ask that to the only panel member with experience of banking. Carol, the Robin Hood tax?

No, not at all.

But as Luned said, it's only small. A very small thing.

You as individuals will be paying for it

through your pensions and insurance, for instance.

People think that this business has nothing to do with them.

Who do you think is taking care of your pension?

How do you think interest is added to your pensions in the first place?

That cost will be passed on to the individual.

Do you want to respond, Luned?

But it's ironic that this week the TUC has come out and said,

because Europe, apart from Britain and Czechoslovakia,

are going to go ahead and do it.

In the next six weeks, it's quite possible it will go ahead.

Now, because what people in this country have decided,

the money will go to the eurozone to help banks there and won't come to us in this country.

Good luck to them. Their businesses aren't successful at all.

And look at the European countries.

Do you want to be like Greece, Portugal or Spain?

It will come in and our money will go to rescue Europe

-and we won't see any of it.

-No, no, no.

It's not a great situation is it, Felix?

It's better than European countries and thank God we're not in the euro

and we have our own currency.

Over to you in the back row.

The panel has been talking about cuts and taxes

but one of the best ways of moving the economy forward

is to make sure there's more money flowing through the economy.

There's a responsibility on government owned banks,

owned by the taxpayer,

to lend to small and local businesses

to make sure they can expand their businesses.

You see more and more people in Wales choosing to spend their money locally.

In Canton, where I live, people are shopping locally because it's cheaper.

Why can't we support these businesses so they can expand,

create jobs so that there's more money flowing through the economy?

It's simple and I'm disappointed nobody's raised the point.

You'll get a chance to respond to that in a moment. Mark Evans.

We must question the moral implications of this wealth.

I think we need a wider discussion.

The audience has practically attacked Gareth for his suggestions.

We need an incentive, was Felix's suggestion.

You can collect taxes without doing that

because you can tax the bonus funds themselves.

-A small tax on them would raise billions.

-OK.

Kenneth, in the middle row.

If I can respond to Dr Felix Aubel's comment

that people need an incentive.

Ordinary workers aren't offered an incentive

at the end of the year for doing a good job.

Ordinary workers don't bring millions into the country.

That's true but it's the bankers' jobs

to sort out the banks and to operate the banks

and if they do that well, they are paid.

And they get enough money for doing that.

And you, in front of Kenneth.

We heard about increasing lending to small companies

but wasn't it too much lending

that got us into trouble in the first place?

A fair point.

Another one over here.

I don't understand how it's fair that we have an economy

that depends on the wealthy,

with people getting millions of pounds

while there are people up the street in the valleys

who can't afford to put food on the table?

Why must we depend on a system which depends on giving millions of pounds

to bankers while millions of people are unemployed?

You mean, why is there such a wealth gap?

In agreement with Gareth Huws on higher taxes?

Yes, and don't cut benefits.

What we're doing as a society is totally stupid.

We're cutting back on the benefits ordinary people get.

They are people who would spend, not save, their money.

When people spend money, what happens?

The economy benefits.

That's what we're doing wrong.

We're being stupid by cutting back and not inflating the economy.

Carol, will you respond to the point

that not even the publicly owned banks

are lending enough to small businesses?

That's true,

but many people just don't want to take risks at the moment.

I was at an event in London recently

and a chair of one of the big banks was talking.

He said the problem is that people don't want to innovate at the moment

and small businesses must innovate.

Yes, come back in.

You're right to say that people are afraid to innovate

because the interest rates linked to the loans are so high

that the incentive isn't there for people to innovate.

If we reduce the interest rates, the incentive might be there.

-They're low enough, in my opinion.

-Bethan, come back in.

We need these powers here in Wales for us to be able to change

and develop the economy.

Then we can do things totally differently and bring in new systems

where small businesses can get more money and we create more jobs.

That's what we need.

And then taxes in Wales will be higher than England

and people will move to England and Wales will default.

We need to tax the wealthy in society.

This leads us very smoothly to the second question in today's show

from Cardiff and that question comes from Jamie.

What's your question please, Jamie?

We've heard a lot about Scottish independence recently.

Would Wales be strong enough to follow the same path?

Jamie Walker from Glantaf asks,

"We've heard a lot about Scottish independence recently.

Would Wales be strong enough to follow the same path?

Let's start with you, Felix Aubel.

I would just say that the Scottish independence argument is nonsense.

They'll have a referendum and the Scottish people will vote no

because they know that they depend on money from England

and this is why Alex Salmond doesn't have enough confidence

to offer just one question in the referendum,

"Yes or no to an independent Scotland?"

He wants a second question on devo max,

that is a self governing system on domestic Scottish matters,

because he knows the Scottish people are too sensible

to vote for independence.

And what's wrong with offering more than one option?

For the simple fact that what happens here

if the Scottish electorate votes in favour of independence

51 for independence and 49 against,

75 for devo max and 25 against,

what is the valid result then?

The truth is that Scotland isn't going to become independent

and even in Wales, only 10% of people in Wales are in favour

of Welsh independence and only one in three of Plaid Cymru's supporters

are in favour of independence for Wales,

even though this is an official Plaid Cymru policy.

-More devolution but not independence.

-There we go.

-Is Wales strong enough to follow Scotland's example?

-No.

-Bethan Jenkins.

-Of course, Plaid Cymru member I'd say yes.

Respond to that point from Felix.

-Not even your own members agree!

-We need to build some momentum.

As we've seen with the SNP in Scotland, they've built momentum

and it's up to them if they want to hold a referendum,

not up to the Tories in Westminster to decide on the question.

The Westminster has the mandate to set it, not Scotland.

Scotland has oil, of course.

Here in Wales, we have plenty of natural resources

such as water which are used for English regions.

We have no responsibility over our natural resources

so we need to hold the discussion

and gauge the public mood in Wales

on what an independent Wales would look like.

Is Felix's point a fair one?

You can't convince your own party members of the argument.

We need to hold an open discussion on this.

We've got a leadership race going on at the moment

and independence is at the top of all of the candidates' agendas.

That is a good thing for us as a party.

Yes but the point is, in reality,

the best thing we can have in Wales is more devolution.

I supported yes campaign last year

so that more decisions can be made in Wales

but if Wales was independent from England,

we'd lose the Barnett formula, we'd lose benefits

and taxes in Wales would have to go up after facilities moved to England

as businesses move to the other side of the Severn.

What is the British system, as things stand?

We were talking about banks. How has that system helped Wales? It hasn't.

We need to have the powers here in Wales so that we can shape our future and develop the economy.

It isn't up to people in London to decide that over us.

You're not doing a good job as the Assembly Government!

Let's not let this descend into an argument. Devo max for Wales?

-Devo max for Wales.

-So that question would be all right for Wales?

It's fine to get a question on further powers

but what people in Wales want to see is the Assembly Government

making use of the powers we campaigned for last year

and if we succeed, then they should go for further powers.

Self governance on domestic issues but Westminster should control foreign affairs,

defence and law and order.

Gareth and Carol, I haven't forgotten about you.

Let's open it up to the audience.

You asked the question Jamie, what do you think?

At the moment I don't think Wales is powerful enough

and it hasn't got the financial means to survive as an independent country.

I'd like Wales to be an independent country but at the moment,

I think we need to put an emphasis on infrastructure and industry.

You'd like to see it but we're a long way away, yes? Is that fair?

Richard Hopkin. Let's get the microphone to you.

I've got a question for Bethan. If Wales becomes independent,

what would happen with the pound currency?

Would it be the Westminster Treasury

or the Treasury in Frankfurt in the European Union?

I think that's what it says on your website.

Or would there be a new currency here in Cardiff? How would it work?

That question has been raised in the Scottish context

and Alex Salmond doesn't have an answer to the question.

You'll get to answer in a moment,

but not now, Bethan. Let's get the microphone over here.

Just to respond to the argument that Wales wouldn't survive

as an independent country.

Isn't the fact that we're one of the poorest countries in Europe

show that in our current situation as a British region

we aren't getting fair financial treatment?

Right. Fair point. In the back row.

Just to pick up on Felix's point on Scottish independence,

I'm not in favour if Welsh or Scottish independence.

Do you want things to stay as they are?

Yes. I'm happy with it as it is.

My question is if they don't want to vote for independence,

-why did they vote for the SNP in the first place?

-Good question.

The simple fact is that the SNP in Scotland is considered

the main opposition to the Labour Party

and many Tories vote for the SNP to kick Labour out

so it's tactical voting.

As Dafydd Elis-Thomas said on the programme,

there are around 2,000 Conservatives in Meirionnydd Nant Conwy

who vote Plaid Cymru to keep the Labour Party out.

As you've named one of the three candidates,

I've got to name the other two. Leanne Wood and Elin Jones.

Where was the other hand up? There we go.

Sorry, what was your name?

-Bethan or Felix Aubel?

-Felix. That's it.

The main problem I have with your argument, Felix,

is it's as if you're depending on the fact,

no, not the fact,

but you're dependent on the current situation staying as it is.

We need to remember that our resources are running out.

Many people, scientists say that the height of oil has either passed

or is going to come in the next 10 or 20 years.

With that in mind,

there is huge potential in Wales in the renewable energy sector.

So you'd be in favour of independence as a result of that?

I've got one answer to this.

Wales joined the European Union under the United Kingdom.

If Wales became independent,

Wales would technically be outside the European Union

and would have to reapply to become a member

and Spain, Portugal and France would veto the application

and stop Wales coming in

because if they let Wales in as an independent country,

the Basques and the minorities in those countries would want the same

and if one European country says no,

like de Gaulle did with England in the 1960s,

Wales would be on its own and it would default.

A large proportion of your party want out of the European Union.

The simple fact is we need to consider...

Wouldn't you be happy to see Wales outside the EU?

We need to appreciate that economically, because Wales

has been so dependent on European grants,

without Europe, Wales would go down the plughole

and unfortunately, that's Plaid Cymru policy.

You can respond to that in a moment but Carol, come in now.

-We're not strong enough. We've been part of England...

-Part of England?

We have been part of England. Look at the history. The Act of Union.

We have been part of England.

The Act of Union in 1536

and we've effectively been a part of England

since 1282, when Llywelyn the Last died.

We have been a part of England for a very long time.

It sounds like you regret the fact we're devolved at all, Carol!

Would that be fair?

No, what's important to us is we've got our culture.

The Scots have kept their own money and legal system and banks.

I'd rather we were here tonight speaking Welsh

and living a life in which Welsh plays a central part.

The things that matter to us as a nation, we've held on to.

APPLAUSE

There is support for Carol. Gareth.

I don't think there's a problem with Wales becoming independent.

We need to accept the fact that if we want independence,

we need to think about what kind of country it would be.

Will it be a rich or poor country? That's the question.

Felix says there will be high taxes.

If people insist on independence, they can do so.

There isn't a problem there.

The problem is that one audience member says,

"Which financial system will we use?"

Could we be financially independent? No!

You can't be financially independent, I don't think.

And I don't think there are many European countries

which are economically independent.

But it is possible for this country to have a seat in what you

would call the trappings of independence

as long as we realise they are trappings.

We are economically dependent on other countries.

That's the simple fact.

Those people who say we're not aren't living in the real world.

Independence is scaremongering because we're interdependent

not independent because it's a global world-wide economy.

Thanks Felix, we want to return to the audience.

Just to respond to Felix's point on Basques and ethnic minorities

within France and Spain getting a voice in the European Union.

In a Democratic system,

shouldn't those people get the right to vote for or against independence?

I would welcome a referendum on independence next year in Wales

and 90% of the people of Wales would vote no.

Bring it on, I would campaign over the United Kingdom.

I'm bringing this discussion to an end.

Bethan Jenkins, you can have the last word.

I think it's important that the people of Wales are listened to.

Nobody would want to force independence on us.

Plaid Cymru needs to introduce the discussion.

Adam Price researched small countries

that were capable of becoming independent

and I don't see why we have to be so defensive

over the fact we'll get these powers in Wales to rule

over our own people and we won't be part of England

but we can team up with them on things like the economy and general policies.

Would you accept that your goal is decades away from being realised?

-If at all.

-We've just had a referendum and of course we need to use these new powers

and build up the argument for eventual Welsh independence.

The truth is Plaid Cymru is afraid on an independence referendum

because 70% of their own members would vote against it

because they have common sense.

There will be a Scottish referendum long before that, I'm sure. Thanks to all four of you.

Thanks to the audience. It's time to take a break.

Let's go to the advertisements.

Come back to us in Cardiff Bay in two minutes' time.

Welcome back you're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn

which is coming from the splendid Senedd building here in Cardiff Bay

with an audience from the capital city.

Let's go to our next question.

A word of warning, we've never discussed this topic on the programme before.

Here we go, it's a first. The question is from Dr Jeremy Segrot.

What's your question, Jeremy?

What with the growing popularity of social media such as Twitter and Facebook,

some argue that they need to be regulated.

What does the panel think?

What with the growing popularity of social media such as Twitter

and Facebook, some argue that they need to be regulated.

What does the panel think?

I don't know about the two on the right

but I know that the panel members on the left are keen users.

Gareth Huws, let's start with you.

Yes. The media in Wales, I think, is suffering.

Newspaper circulation is down and they are closing down

because readership is down.

These new media outlets are important.

I see them as a kind of people's media.

I don't want them regulated. There are too many regulations in our society as it is.

There are plenty of things in place to stop certain behaviours.

There are laws against libel.

If you do something online,

the law is there to protect those that are wronged.

I don't think we need any sort of further regulation.

The important thing about this is that it's spontaneous.

People get to have their say.

We know what they say and there's nobody to interfere.

Is there a danger that people might make thoughtless comments

and maybe reveal too much, be too public and not take enough care?

We all do that sometimes.

-What does it matter?

-It does matter.

-Are you on Twitter, Felix?

-No and I'll tell you why.

I see lots of people, where I live,

there are lots of neighbourly disputes.

They compete against each other

and people saying that they have 50 friends, others say they have 75.

People make stories up and put pictures on Facebook

and so on, pretending they've been places on holiday

and I know that they've been in the village.

They are competing against each other.

I see it as virtual reality

and it's a false world.

Where do you live, Felix? LAUGHTER

In the countryside outside Carmarthen.

But what I'm saying is that people are living in a false paradise.

Don't talk about regulation.

People do silly things such as go on Facebook

and say where they're going on holiday,

what presents they've received,

put pictures of their homes and what they've got in the house.

All they're doing is inviting thieves

because thieves go into these places for rich pickings.

There are people who apply for jobs and don't get an interview.

A recent online survey said that over a third of people

who don't get invited back to interview don't get an interview

because the employer has looked at their Facebook and Twitter accounts.

That's one of the dangers.

Bethan Jenkins, isn't another,

as we heard in a Westminster report this week,

that people use it to bully and stalk people?

Of course there are problems like that.

I've had personal experience of them.

People being unpleasant to you?

Yes and I've had to report it to the police. I think we need...

Wouldn't you have thought that Twitter or Facebook would be

more prepared to protect you from that type of thing?

It is unregulated and I could argue that it should be regulated.

There are laws in place. There are laws against stalking.

It's important to use it, especially as a politician.

People of all ages chat with me Facebook and Twitter and ask me

to take up cases for them via Twitter but we need to make sure

the people who use it are aware of their rights if they are bullied.

Technology can be used for good, as we have seen,

but it can also be a force for bad.

In the last few days, some people wanted to take

pictures off Facebook that they've had on there since 2003 because they were embarrassed of them.

Facebook refused to change the settings

so to an extent once you put something on Facebook,

there's nothing wrong with that, but you need to accept

that it could be all over the world and don't depend on Facebook to protect your privacy.

Jeremy, what do you think?

I agree to an extent that you need to be sensible

when you put something on Twitter.

It's a public forum.

I also agree with your point about the fact that things like Twitter

and Facebook are full of potential to communicate with politicians.

-As a researcher, I think Twitter is a great thing.

-There you go.

And the man behind you.

I'm Karl and I work in social media.

-So you're an expert in the matter.

-I hope so.

I wanted to say that there's already legislation linked to these companies.

For example, libel, copyright and things like data protection.

You need to be sensible about these companies because even though

these services can be really useful for people, companies, institutions

and communities, companies like Facebook have an awful track record

on privacy and terms and conditions.

They change the terms and conditions once or twice a year.

So would you argue that we need tighter regulation?

We need to be sensible.

So as individuals we need to be sensible

and not depend on others to protect us.

No, I don't agree. We need regulations regarding privacy.

But there are more advantages, in your opinion?

Your hand was up.

Ysgol Plasmawr. I'd better mention you as we mentioned Glantaf earlier.

-I don't want any jealousy.

-It's a much better school.

But, of course, this technology was used over the summer

by some people to organise and urge people to riot in London.

What does the panel think of this use?

We'll come back to the panel in a minute. Jamie?

There are plenty of ways to manage your privacy

and the ways in which people can contact you on Twitter and Facebook.

So I'd like to ask, do you think any further regulations are needed?

Will it just be another way of restricting users' civil rights?

Right, Sion. Your hand was up.

We need more education, rather than more rules.

One of the things that worries me is that people are over-reliant

on this technology and they always have to report what they're up to.

So the question for Bethan is how many people in the Senedd

are tweeting instead of concentrating on what's being said?

That's a good question.

Are you too willing to reveal things about yourself?

I'm very careful.

There are plenty of things in place to safeguard people.

You don't have to accept someone as a friend on Facebook, for example.

But I think Facebook and Twitter have plenty of potential and are

so free and I think that's what is great about the internet is that it

is free of national law and I think we're going down a dangerous path

if we let governments take action.

So people stalking and bullying and so on, that's not a concern?

-There are enough regulations in place.

-I think so.

I think we need to be sensible.

You don't have to accept people as friends.

It's easy enough to stop people from seeing your profile and so on.

I think it's up to the individual to look after themselves.

Right, your hand is up.

The younger generation is obviously using this media.

What about the older generation? Have you any interest in these things?

Some are shaking their heads.

I'd just like to add to Siobhan's point.

She said that these sites have caused violence.

But also, so many of the revolutions in Africa

and in the east benefited from the use of Twitter and Facebook.

There we are. Carol, we haven't heard from you on this.

The genie is out of the bottle.

Have you got a Twitter or Facebook account?

Yes, but there's nothing about me on them.

-I follow Adam Jones on Twitter.

-Right.

I'd follow Gethin Jenkins if he was on Twitter.

-They're your heroes! What do you think about this?

-They're my heroes.

To communicate with the younger generation,

you have to communicate with them on Facebook.

That's how they talk to each other.

If I want to keep in touch with them, that's how I talk to them.

So I understand a little about it.

Two things - I think there is a way to move things forward,

as regards technology, by sharing problems through these media.

Companies are doing research in maths and computers

and they can put a problem forward on one of these systems

and in half a day, 20 people have had a shot at sorting it out.

And this can move things forward. It's very positive.

That's a good thing.

And the second thing, of course, is the role they play in breaking news.

All of us have phones and probably have a camera on them.

And we probably have a video camera

and we have the means to put on the internet.

It's very easy and it's very powerful.

The things we referred to don't concern you?

For example, terrorism in London,

I've also referred to stalking and bullying.

Well, bad things can happen, yes, but things such as what happened

in Egypt can be organised in the same way.

Right. Bethan?

Just in response to the point about tweeting in the Senedd,

I think it's important AMs communicate regarding what is...

So when you're sat in the back row, you're tweeting?

-Yes, because I think...

-Why aren't you listening to the speaker?

I will be tweeting about what that person is saying.

If Kirsty Williams or Ieuan Wyn Jones asks a question,

I would update that so the people

who might not be watching the Senedd can see what is happening.

Gareth, the final word.

Well, I think it helps democracy in Wales.

We can ensure that opinions are heard

and people outside know what is going on.

-That's important in society.

-They fill a gap regarding democracy.

There we are. We are going for another break.

We will discuss another subject after the break.

Welcome back. Plenty of chat going on during the break.

Everyone's enjoying themselves.

Remember you can get in touch with us on Twitter. It is on the screen.

Let's move on to the next question, it comes from Sion.

What's your question?

The carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere in the UK is up 3.8%.

That's according to the latest figures.

As debates continue over renewable energy, how are we expected

to produce enough electricity over the next decade?

Yes, the carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere

has increased, according to the latest figures.

How are we expected to produce enough electricity over the coming decade?

-You're an expert in this field.

-The quick answer is gas.

And the answer is for us to reduce the amount of energy we use.

I have said this a number of times, especially on the radio.

People in this country have become used to jumping in the car

to go to the shop four or five times a week.

When I was a child, we'd go to Swansea maybe once a fortnight.

People should also be sharing cars to travel to work.

Society has changed. We're not going to take a step backwards.

No, but we can't have it both ways.

We can't start talking about the environment

and complain the price of oil is too high, unless we take responsibility.

Now, of course, beyond ten years, we have to think about nuclear energy.

And that's the most possible thing at the moment.

Not the same kind of nuclear power stations as we have now to answer

the needs of the '60s and '70s.

It was the time of the Cold War and we had to make plutonium

and we needed the enriched uranium to make bombs.

That's not the situation we find ourselves in now.

Do you think it's safer?

You're producing something that won't take decades to degrade.

We don't have much time left. Doesn't the cloud of Fukushima worry you?

We're not on a continental margin in Wales.

Japan, the Pacific plate goes underneath Japan

and you're going to have earthquakes.

We're not in the same situation at Wylfa.

So you're saying that something like that could never happen in Wales.

That kind of thing cannot happen in Wales.

Nuclear energy, Bethan Jenkins.

I think we need to develop natural resources in Wales.

We need the power to legislate on that.

We need to think about situations where we can have more wind energy.

The Tories and Labour are all over the place on this point.

We need the power for over 50 megawatt in Wales,

-so we can make decisions.

-Your policy is inconsistent.

Plaid Cymru's policy, outside Anglesey, is no nuclear power.

You support nuclear energy on Anglesey because you know if you

opposed nuclear energy on Anglesey, you'd lose your Assembly seat.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas himself said that last night.

Your party is split on this matter. What about solar energy?

Research has come out now that by decommissioning these noisy,

ugly things, that destroy the environment,

you use more carbon in getting rid of them than you save.

-100 Tory MPs this week wanted to see fewer wind farms.

-I agree.

-So do I. I must say this right now.

-But how do you close the gap?

The problem with wind farms is that for every megawatt,

the person running the grid needs the same amount of gas on standby.

-They're good for nothing.

-It's just companies making money.

-The people are not benefiting.

-Bethan, come back in on that.

Creating companies where the people of Wales benefit.

People should be benefiting from what is happening in Wales,

not these rich companies.

-Gareth, briefly.

-I don't think Felix is right in saying that.

He wants to get rid of wind farms,

but his party has just removed the subsidy on solar panels.

-It doesn't make sense.

-The level was unsuitable.

You safeguard this and safeguard that...

I'll give you an easy answer, we're looking at it in the wrong way.

In Wales, we have houses that were built not in the last century,

but the century before and they need to be renovated.

If we did the work, less energy would be used in houses

and we could cut the amount of electricity we use.

With the policies that came from the previous government

and are continuing now, we don't have a good energy policy and have

provided subsidies for the wrong things and we, the public,

will pay for them and we will make the industry uncompetitive.

I want to hear from the audience. Sion, you asked the question.

I think we maybe need to discuss the balance between renewable energy

and saving energy.

Renewable energy is quite sexy and renovating old houses isn't.

-We need to concentrate more on that.

-Right in front of me.

What's the best way to persuade people to use public transport?

That's a good question, but we don't have time to answer it.

-In the back row.

-I think we need to be more realistic with wind energy.

Compared with nuclear, the farms only create about 5% of the energy.

-We need to look again at tidal energy.

-In favour of nuclear?

-Yes. It's much safer.

-No choice. Yes, you here.

The nonsense I've heard about the footprint

from wind farms is ridiculous.

If you're talking about the carbon footprint from decommissioning

these nuclear plants, they take decades.

You're talking about a tiny amount from wind farms. It's nonsense.

The way in which plutonium is now made is entirely different.

Hang on. We could continue for another half an hour,

but it's the end of the programme.

It has flown by once again. Thank you to the audience and the panel.

Next week, we'll be discussing the Welsh language in Swansea.

But for now, thanks for watching and good night.