Abertawe Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this evening in Swansea, Welsh lecturer Dr Simon Brooks,

political commentator Rod Richards,

Bethan Williams, chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg,

and head of Tinopolis TV company Ron Jones.

Give them a warm welcome.

Good evening and welcome to a special edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

Tonight, we are devoting the entire hour to discussing

the situation in which the Welsh language finds itself in 2012.

We are in Swansea,

the city in which Saunders Lewis came to lecture 90 years ago,

long before his most famous speech about the fate of the language.

In that speech in 1962, he called for a revolution to save it.

In the 50 years since, plenty has changed for better and for worse,

and we can discuss that, as we consider the future challenges.

We have a panel representing different points of view

and also the audience at Brangwyn Hall.

There are some here representing organisations and bodies,

but the majority are locals.

I hope you will all be keen to contribute. We only have an hour.

But let's get started with a question from Terry Davies at the back.

In the 50 years since Saunders Lewis' lecture, the status

of Welsh has strengthened, but the language continues to lose ground.

Should we now be safeguarding our communities?

Terry, thank you for the opening question,

leading us in this debate on the language.

In the 50 years since the lecture, the status of Welsh

has strengthened, but the language continues to lose ground.

Should we now be fighting to safeguard our communities?

-I'll start with you, Simon Brooks.

-Status is important.

It's important because it relates to our rights as citizens.

But it's also important

because status raises confidence among Welsh speakers.

Self-confident Welsh speakers are more likely to use

the language socially. So it's important we don't try

and play status against social use of the Welsh language.

But social use of the language is more important

and that is a vital lesson for us, as Welsh speakers.

There are two things we must do.

Firstly, we need to face our own responsibilities as Welsh speakers

to be confident in our use of the language and use it

whenever we get the opportunity in our daily lives.

Secondly, we need to realise that using the language

in our communities is tied in with the success of our communities.

And we need to press our government in Cardiff Bay

to ensure that the correct policies as regards the economy,

planning and education are nurtured.

That is now more important than any battle for status?

Is that what you would accept?

I think the future of the language as a community language

should be a priority for the language bodies

and for us as Welsh speakers over the coming decades.

-Rod Richards.

-The emphasis on status is the big problem.

It's a weakness and that is what has led us

to the second part of this very good question.

It's the status.

We have the structure, we have rules, these Welsh totem poles,

we all dance around them and they're good for nothing.

-Weren't they needed?

-No.

-They weren't needed?

Yes, but they don't help people

or increase the number of Welsh speakers.

The biggest problem, I feel, and I feel strongly about this,

is that the language has been stolen from the ordinary people

to satisfy the political aims of the middle classes in Wales.

-Let me give you some examples.

-Well, one or two.

It's no longer enough to speak Welsh.

You have to be a part of the institution.

That means you are a republican, a national socialist,

anti-British, anti-English, a pacifist etc.

You praise everything that happens through the medium of Welsh,

even though it often is below second rate.

-Is that a description of you, Simon Brooks?

-Well, I'm not a socialist.

That's certain. That is nonsense, Rod.

The status of Welsh has raised the hopes of a group who have

been historically underprivileged in our country.

The fact that Cymdeithas yr Iaith, for example, has fought

for the status of the language has been extremely important,

but celebrating Tynged yr Iaith this year, we need to look forward...

Bethan admitted in the Western Mail this week that the communities

had not received enough attention and now is the time to move forward.

It's too late. We've lost half a century.

-It's never too late in life, Rod.

-Let's turn to Bethan.

Certainly, it's not too late.

We have to ensure that we celebrate

and acknowledge all the gains we've had over the past 50 years.

It's a chance for us this year to thank language campaigners,

everyone who has been a part of the battle during the past 50 years,

to ensure we're in the place where we are now.

Last year, we broadcast a lecture, Tynged yr Iaith 2.

As a result of the past 50 years, we're now in a situation

where we're not asking whether the language has a future

because there is certainty, it has some sort of a future.

-According to Rod Richards, it's too late.

-It's not.

I didn't get a chance to answer the second part of the question.

-You can come back.

-But we're asking the question -

is it a minority culture or the language of a nation.

If we want it to be a community language, a living language,

a natural language, then we need to act.

We need to act now and not just talk about it.

-Ron Jones.

-I was part of the first consultative language board.

Of course, back then, we were preparing government

for a language measure and status was important.

The '67 legislation had not given it status.

The board lost the argument with the government,

regarding the principle of equal responsibility.

One way of giving it status.

Also, on that original board, there was the desire to work closely

with communities to safeguard language within the community.

And it's fair to say, that battle was also lost.

What we eventually got was a way of creating status through a long

and painful process of language plans and so on.

Over the years,

the Welsh Language Board turned its back on working with communities

to secure what Simon was talking about, which is vitally important.

If you take the village I grew up in,

Saunders Lewis didn't think highly of us villagers.

We were totally comfortable living in a Welsh language community.

It wasn't the type of community he'd have liked.

It was a working class community and not part of any elite.

But of course, by now, with all the status the language has gained,

the village has lost the Welsh language.

Are you trying to say that it was a mistake to try to

fight for the status, as so many have been doing?

No. not at all.

I think we made too much of the status issue

and not enough of the day-to-day.

-We need to do both but in a different way to what happened.

-Rod.

Edwardian castles have status but they belong to the past.

The key to the answer is in the question.

It's about communities.

What is a community? That's what we need to decide.

It isn't a geographic feature any more.

A community means,

you can be a community within a club.

As it happens, I belong to a community with Ron. The Scarlets.

-Everyone around me speaks Welsh.

-That isn't true, Rod.

Communities do exist.

Communities do exist in Wales.

Welsh language communities exist in Wales.

We have a devolved government in Cardiff

and that government has a responsibility to form intelligent

policies in matters of economy, housing, planning and education,

which protect the use of the Welsh language in those communities.

I'm saying that communities are more than a geographic matter.

That's the point I'm making.

What do you make of Rod's earlier point,

that this new status for the language

has just creating safe, middle class jobs

and it is being distanced from the Welsh communities?

To an extent, Welsh has certainly become a middle class language

and that is a weakness.

We need to ensure our language doesn't become

the domain of one part of society.

The truth is, the thing that many of us are campaigning over,

for example, fairness in the housing sector,

intelligent planning which will help people from less privileged areas

to find accommodation in their own communities.

These are issues that are relevant to people who aren't middle class.

We need to avoid following Rod's example of playing Welsh speakers

against each other, I completely object to that.

Do you want to respond?

I'm not playing them against each other, I'm answering the question.

-You are.

-I'm answering the question about status.

Terry Davies.

The two things that worry me at the moment are even though more

people may be able to speak Welsh, they're not using Welsh.

If the language becomes an academic and middle-class thing,

-it doesn't have a bright future ahead of it.

-Yes. Ken Rees.

I think there's a weakness in the Welsh mentality.

When there's an English person around,

we tend to switch to English and not continue speaking Welsh

and pull the English person into the conversation.

Eifion Davies in the back row.

Rod Richard's female friend, Lady Thatcher,

said that there was no such thing as society.

-Yes.

-That's what she said.

Do you want to elaborate?

-I don't agree with her.

-OK, Ffred Ffransis, let's bring you in here.

I think Rod Richards has handed us a stick to whip him with.

-Sorry, I can't hear you.

-You've made a rod for your own back here.

The suggestion that the status of the language

has nothing to do with sustaining communities is complete nonsense.

As rural communities, young people in areas

such as the Conwy Valley, Penmachno and so on,

fought for the status of the language, they became confident

and they decided to stay in their communities,

buy homes and work in their local communities.

The two things are linked.

And who was responsible for the problems in the housing market?

Who sold off social housing

so that poor people had to move away from their areas

and schools were threatened?

Political nonsense coming into a debate over the language once again.

We need a real revolution.

As the Welsh Language Society says,

if we want a living Welsh language, everything needs to change.

Your aims are political.

The housing sector is driven by profit.

The economy is driven by profit, not creating work

and housing for people.

The planning system favours corporations

and it all has to change.

Right, Ffred Ffransis. Hold on, Rod Richards.

I wanted to ask why these new words are coming in all the time?

There are people I know who are learning Welsh

and when it comes to the grammar, they give up.

So you think getting the language right is the problem.

Yes, what about you?

We need to forget about politics.

What's important is that we go out into the community and talk to

people and give them an opportunity to tell us what's needed.

There's a bit of apathy in our communities.

The first language Welsh speakers, do they use it?

They speak English amongst themselves. And what about now?

We've got a new Assembly panel.

Why don't they go out into our communities,

speak to the people and ask them what they want?

Then they can cobble a scheme together

and say that they claim the scheme, then.

Thank you. Delyth.

Can I just say that Rod Richards is a lapdog to his former mistress,

Margaret Thatcher.

The Tories have never been friends of Wales.

If all of us took on the burden of our own language

and spoke the language...

Wasn't it under the Tories that we got our own television channel?

..Ffred and the like wouldn't have to work so hard to sustain

our language if we all used Welsh whenever we got the opportunity.

You're confirming what I said, It's political.

-You're all saying the same thing.

-We'll come back to you, Rod.

Mark Phillips you're chair of the Welsh Language Board.

Yes. From 1st April onwards, the rules of the game are changing

and you can't disassociate politics and the language in that context,

because the government has decided not only to appoint a commissioner,

and we really welcome that as a powerful post,

but also to take a lot of the visionary work

the Language Board has carried out

in terms of developing the language on a community level and to take

that into the government and make it the responsibility of the minister.

But within the government,

who's going to be responsible for promoting the language?

The minister has taken on that responsibility.

He is also responsible for mainstreaming Welsh

across every part of Government.

The civil service needs to fundamentally change its attitude.

They're at an advantage in that they take a team of talented

staff from the Welsh Language Board in,

but their attitude towards community development

needs to change completely.

What does community development mean? Work? Jobs?

Yes, certainly.

Work, jobs, planning and projects to promote new

ways of transferring the language from one generation to the next,

of creating opportunities for our young people to use the language.

There's a hand up here. Go on.

There used to be communities when the coal mines were open

up until 20 years ago.

Now that they've closed,

the community has been destroyed.

We might have to reopen the coal mines

now the price of coal has risen.

Job creation, in other words, is your message.

Catherine Rees from Business Enterprise.

Do we have it in us in Wales to go out there to create these jobs

that are needed in our communities?

I'm a great believer in investing in the local economy

and I feel that businesses, companies

and entrepreneurship is the way forward.

If there aren't jobs there for young people,

they then create this critical mass

of people and then they create the leaders of the future.

The people who will start companies but also lead the community

and create excitement so people want to stay in their communities.

But I've asked this many times on Pawb a'i Farn,

is there a lack of entrepreneurial spirit in Welsh speakers?

-We're unwilling to take risks?

-No.

I think that used to be true

but the evidence suggests we're just as willing to innovate as anyone.

and I think it's important, if we want the Welsh language to succeed,

that we get the economy to succeed.

The two things are linked.

To the young person in the back row.

I think we need to create jobs locally to keep Welsh speakers

in the community.

What's happening at the moment is there aren't enough jobs

in these communities so people are going elsewhere

and you lose Welsh speakers.

Eric Davies of CBI Wales.

I think that...

I live in the area that Ron was raised

and it is almost a constant battle to get people using the language.

There is this essential mass of people and whatever you do,

if that mass goes against you, you're going to lose.

It's an everyday battle.

Why are people so reluctant to use it?

It's the feeling of, "Will using Welsh

"and learning Welsh enrichen me in terms of how I live my life?"

If we can't persuade non-Welsh-speakers

that it's important, it's not going to happen.

The regeneration of the language isn't going to happen

in the community we're talking about;

Banc Y Gerwen, Brynamman, Ystalyfera, Ystradgynlais.

Ron Jones, would you accept that, as somebody who has created jobs?

I think that so much of it is down to the economy.

That's why I disagreed with Ffred's version of events.

I think that the fundamental faults of the economy

have created a situation in which the language has weakened.

I don't accept that we don't have a background as a people

in business and entrepreneurship. I don't think we have lost it.

It's weaker because we've got a weak economy at the moment across Wales.

I think Welsh people have innovated over the centuries.

So they're not going to these middle class, safe jobs

in the public sector, as we referred to earlier?

I think, if anything, Welsh speaking Welsh people have missed

opportunities to create businesses because there are opportunities

within the public sector and I think that's a recent development.

I think we've turned to the safe jobs as Welsh speakers

but I don't think our ability has reduced.

In that way of working with these communities,

I think it's in the economy area that we've got the best future

to look forward to helping the Welsh language.

Ammanford has lost it because of the coal mines. As simple as that.

Right, Bethan.

One of the biggest challenges we face is that people

can't get easy access to services.

People try to get the services...

But even when they are available they aren't used?

The government or local authorities can't provide full services.

How can you expect big business that come here...?

In a radio lecture this week Guto Bebb referred

to a cash machine in Caernarfon and few people used the Welsh option.

-The service is there.

-But Welsh isn't taken seriously by businesses.

People don't expect it.

There's the thought that Welsh service aren't available.

People don't ask for them because they don't expect to have them.

One of the weaknesses of language planning over the past few years,

and I think the Language Board is responsible for this,

the Government back in the 90s is responsible for this,

there was this emphasis on creating services in Welsh.

Of course they had to be available but we have turned it into religion

rather than making sure Welsh is used in our communities.

-Is that fair? Made it into some kind of religion?

-I'm not sure about that.

I would agree that the Language Board through their plans

had shielded businesses especially in the private sector.

They use the argument that they've got a Welsh service

but that's just a few signs.

-Simon, to end this...

-That isn't a Welsh service.

Economy, housing, planning, education.

Those are the cornerstones that will protect the language

in our communities.

We'll turn to one of those next but we'll first have a break.

Welcome back to Brangwyn Hall in Swansea.

You're watching a special edition of Pawb a'i Farn

dealing with the Welsh language.

There's a lively debate on Twitter, carry on Tweeting.

Let's have our next question by Ashley Rhys Evans.

What's your question?

Lately, there's been an increase in Welsh education.

Is there any purpose to this

if the language isn't used in the community outside school?

We're heading into one of the fields that Simon mentioned earlier.

There's been an increase in Welsh education.

Is there any purpose to this

if the language isn't used in the community outside school?

Let's start with Bethan Williams.

It is heartening that there is a rise in Welsh education

and a lot of time and campaigning by parents

and groups has made sure that new Welsh schools are built

and to fight for Welsh education.

But what doesn't reflect and honour that is that Welsh education

is provided, but councils that provide education in Welsh,

don't go on to provide extracurricular activities in Welsh.

That just confirms that attitude that...

Are we supposed to depends on councils for leadership?

If they are providing the extracurricular services

and they can provide education in Welsh, they should.

They're just confirming this attitude

that Welsh is a language for education only.

Once you're out of education, there we go, you can forget about Welsh.

But there is room for the Language Commissioner

to change that and make sure people can use Welsh in the workplace,

there are more Welsh services to be had out there.

It is important that we see that.

Doesn't that concern you?

We've had Welsh education for at least 50 years,

but yet in the communities outside those

it can be a desert for the Welsh language.

Pupils leave school and it's all over.

One thing we have been saying is we need establish Welsh

as an educational skill and then people take Welsh seriously.

We need to make sure that people receive a Welsh education

that's relevant to them so they can use it in the real world.

They should be able to use it in their everyday lives

not make it something irrelevant.

Let's turn to the audience members.

Hefin Matthias, as a former headteacher,

what was your experience here? Was it disappointing to you?

No, it was a good thing.

The fact that children in parts of Wales especially the south east,

can speak Welsh is a miracle.

Go back 50 years, I was a schoolboy in Pontypridd.

Out of 800 boys, about six spoke Welsh.

Now, there are more than 10 Welsh secondary schools in the south east.

Thousands of children and the potential to get many, many more.

How would you respond to Ashleigh's question?

It's a miracle but what's the point if it isn't used outside schools?

There is a point.

If Welsh is going to survive, it has to be a living, urban language.

To be a living language.

But is it a living language in communities like the valleys?

Yes it is. I've been a head teacher there for 13 years.

It's certainly a living language and there's enthusiasm in the school.

99% of pupils there come from non-Welsh-speaking families. It's a miracle.

What's important is that it's the power of people's will that has created this situation.

What is essential is that county councils

and especially the Assembly plans for the future.

As we said earlier, we need to plan ahead rather than depend on others.

Right. Where were the other hands up? You, in the front.

It's the same problem for adult Welsh language learners.

The problem is that when you're out in the community to use your Welsh, there are two problems.

There are two problems.

You're using your second language

and you're trying to find the people and businesses

that offer Welsh language services.

Right, that's certainly a problem. You had your hand up.

There are several, the Welsh language schools are all full

but the problem is, as that lady said,

once they are out in the community, they don't have the chance to speak the language

and the children go home and it isn't a Welsh language environment

like it was when I was young.

They don't get that opportunity to use it and that's a problem because children lose confidence.

Is there an answer? Catrin Stephens, can I ask you?

Do you see this as a problem, to begin with?

I'm very pleased about the developments in this region.

We opened a Welsh language school this year

and there'll be another one opening next year.

That's been a massive development and it's great when non-Welsh

speakers send their children to these schools.

While the situation stays as it is, with 90% of homes aren't Welsh speaking,

Welsh is going to be a second language for those people.

Their mother tongue is English.

So changing that will be a massive change

and it requires financial investment.

I rejoice in the language miracle

and we need to strengthen our communities

so they can help these people.

It's up to us Welsh speakers to do that.

We heard the other day that the Basque country

was putting a lot more money behind this area.

Much, much more is being spent there.

There's very little investment in the Welsh language.

But are we using our investment wisely?

Heini Gruffudd was on television this week saying,

"Come to Wales to see a country where Welsh isn't being treated properly."

I think he's talking about Welsh as a second language.

He's not talking about the Welsh schools which produce Welsh speakers, to be fair.

They are doing exceptional work. I wouldn't condemn their work.

Catrin, thank you.

We have Swansea county councillor in the second row.

I've been a chair of governors at Llwynderw

since the school opened but I'm not the chair at the moment.

I'm extremely pleased when I hear that many of the children

at the school have non-Welsh speaking parents.

I was at the school a fortnight ago and I was speaking to the children.

I asked them whether they spoke Welsh at home and they said, "No."

"Mum and Dad don't understand Welsh." I

asked them where they spoke Welsh.

They said, "I know Mrs Jones who runs the chip shop speaks Welsh."

It's a good thing that the language lives.

So it is used, in your experience.

Tudur Hallam, can I come to you as someone who teaches Welsh

to students here in Swansea.

Can we get the microphone to him?

The growth in the Welsh language is astonishing.

It's important to remember that's as a result of community language planning.

There are lessons to be learned for county councils there.

If you want to see growth in other areas, for example,

the use made of community swimming pools and other institutions

controlled by councils, you need to plan

deliberately for the language, as has happened in education.

-Do you see this as a problem, in other words?

-Yes.

Schools play a part in our communities.

We're painting everybody with the same brush.

I know children who use Welsh outside of school.

There is positive news as well.

It's part of the process, producing more Welsh speakers,

and we need to create opportunities for them to use it.

The glass is half full. Let's go over to the back row.

There's no doubt that our schools are producing Welsh speakers

but can somebody tell me why, oh why,

once those children are outside the classroom,

they speak an undecipherable slang.

And they're not children from non-Welsh speaking homes.

Does it matter, if it's a form of Welsh?

No, I was talking about English slang.

English slang, that's another matter. Delyth, would you like to respond?

I've never heard anyone saying that their English wasn't good enough.

But you hear lots of people say they their Welsh isn't good enough.

I'm sure there are people here tonight who if you asked them,

"What time does this programme finish?"

They wouldn't say, "Pum munud ar hugain wedi naw,"

they'd say, "Twenty five past nine."

And I'd like to challenge fellow Welsh speakers to always tell the time in Welsh.

We've been told! Ashleigh, you asked the question.

I'll go over to your friend in a moment.

What do you think is the answer?

I think that too many pupils see Welsh as a formal language

rather than a language for informal situations.

I think what we need to do is to change that view of the language.

What is the problem there? Is English cooler?

Yes, I think many pupils see it as a cooler language

to use with friends

and some people look down on the Welsh language.

-That's been my experience.

-Thanks, Ashleigh.

I just wanted to elaborate on what Ashleigh said.

Just that the appetite to speak Welsh isn't there

because it's portrayed as old fashioned.

Maybe we need something more modern

just to make Welsh more of a thing for Welsh speakers.

More modern where in particular?

On television? Radio?

There aren't opportunities on social networking websites

and things like that.

-That's what young people do.

-Do you use Welsh on those?

-Yes.

-I do.

-Right. Over to the back row. The young woman in the back.

I was born and raised in a Welsh speaking environment

and I'm lucky enough to have friends I only speak Welsh with.

Back in school, I was walking on the yard with a friend

and a boy from year seven came up to us and asked us,

"Why are you speaking Welsh?"

We had all been to a Welsh school

and were at a Welsh school at the time.

-Did you have an answer for him?

-We walked away.

-There wasn't an answer to that.

-Over here, in the white shirt.

Hello. I work for the Urdd across south Wales

and I see some very encouraging attitudes from young people.

I feel as though we need more Welsh speaking youth workers to

work with young people more closely.

Through the Urdd?

Through the Urdd and other movements that work with young people.

Here we have four young people who live in the area and go to Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr

and they volunteer at the youth club held in Swansea

and gives opportunities to young people.

Young people are positive about the language

and want these opportunities so we need to work with the sixth form

to offer opportunities to years seven, eight and nine.

There are hands up all over the place.

As the only one here from Ystalyfera, you may contribute.

I think there's a link between the number of young people moving out of Wales

and never speaking Welsh again

and the number of universities in Wales

that don't offer the options that young people want.

I personally want to be a vet when I leave school

and there isn't a single university in Wales which teaches

veterinary courses.

Why not go to England to study

and then come back to contribute to the community?

Once they go over the border to England,

there's no reason for them to come back.

Yes. Excellent, thank you.

I haven't heard from the panellists. Come on, Ron Jones.

The story of the Welsh language in the south-east

and some of our very English-speaking regions

is a successful one.

And it's successful because we see the situation improve year-on-year.

But it'll be a long time before we change these

communities that these schools are part of.

Let me use Welsh-speaking Eddie Ray as an example,

he has sadly passed away but the likable Welshman

who was chief Executive at a Bridgend factory.

Eddie was very good

in that he employed pupils coming out of Llanhari.

The great tragedy for Eddie was by the time they turned 23,

they'd lost their Welsh.

That's the challenge we face in the south-east.

How do we maintain that connection with the language?

But the tragedy for Welsh language education for us

is the way we've allowed Welsh schools to be established

in areas like the west

and they kill off the use of Welsh in traditional Welsh schools.

In Carmarthenshire, for example,

we've managed to create Welsh schools which are good schools

but they reduce the responsibilities

on natural schools in our villages

to sustain the Welsh language

as a natural part of their role as educators

and also as part of the community.

In the west and north-west, Simon Brooks,

would you rather see Welsh language schools than bilingual ones?

Certainly.

I would argue that our main problem,

certainly in counties like Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire,

Anglesey and so on, is that you've got a situation

where almost everybody is leaving primary school

able to speak Welsh,

regardless of whether their parents speak Welsh or not, whoever they are.

They leave those village schools bilingual.

They then go to these supposedly bilingual rural schools

and children from English backgrounds often go

into English medium education,

even though they're fluent in Welsh.

That is a tragedy.

Maybe their parents want them to learn Physics in English.

That's possible but we need to approach this

as a big societal problem.

The truth is that in the south-east, we've got Welsh schools

and a Welsh society.

In west Cardiff, there is a language shift

going on among schoolchildren from English to Welsh.

Rod Richards, you can have the last word on education.

The last word. Are you sure? There we go. Thanks a lot.

I'm being nice to you. We're short of time.

With the education situation as it is in Wales,

where 40% of our children can't read

to a adequate level at 11-years-old,

it doesn't matter which language they're learning, to be honest.

That's the starting point for education policy

and one of the education policies I'd like to see coming in,

we tried to introduce it 20 years ago

and I'm sure many people I know in Plaid Cymru

now regret having opposed it,

is getting exceptional schools to run not only secondary schools

but a cluster of primary schools as well.

Then you create a community of schools

which are geographically local.

Right. That's where we leave education.

Thanks for your contributions.

Let's move on to another subject but first, lets take a break.

Come back to us in Swansea in a couple of minutes.

Welcome back to Swansea

where we've dedicated an hour to discussing the state of the Welsh language.

Let's move on to our next question

which comes from Llio Wyn in the back.

This week, the launch of S4C was compared to translating the Bible into Welsh.

Since then the channel, along with Radio Cymru,

has been a constant bone of contention.

How important are they now in terms of maintaining the language?

Thanks, Llio. In one of those radio broadcasts,

the launch of S4C was compared to translating the Bible into Welsh.

Since then the channel and Radio Cymru

have been a constant bone of contention.

But how important are they in terms of maintaining the language? Is that their job?

The old argument is about whether it's S4C's role

to provide Welsh language services,

and the same goes for Radio Cymru,

or whether it's part of a long-term project

to safeguard the language

and to help it to prosper?

From the start I've been of the opinion

that our broadcasters

play an important role, and new media providers,

to be part of this project to safeguard the language as a medium

and safeguard it as entertainment,

part of education but also safeguarding the language

by being part of the Welsh language community.

I think the challenge in the coming years

is to ensure that in a totally new system, that that role is taken seriously,

not only by S4C but also by the BBC.

They will now be part of the new funding system

and assessing the value of these things.

I think this gives us a chance for us

to reassess the purpose of our public broadcasters.

I think there is a reason for us to look once again at the priorities

needed to help these services to safeguard the language.

I think politicians in London and Cardiff are now ready

for a mature debate, a much more sensible debate.

Have we been negligent in the past?

I think maybe we have lost sight

of what was the purpose of broadcasters.

I'd make the same accusation against the BBC for their English services.

I think there is a need now for us as a small country within

a large regime like the BBC to look at what we want to do with these

services in Wales, how are they going to serve a new, young country?

-So they are still vital, as far as promoting the language.

-Definitely.

-How about you, as chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith?

-Yes, certainly. It's vital.

We saw that with the S4C campaign,

how important it was as a service to people.

Learners came to us, saying it was an important resource,

Cyw is an important service for children.

It's visual, it's available to everyone. It's vitally important.

S4C is missing an opportunity.

They must be part of the campaign to safeguard their own future.

One of the things we were calling for

while campaigning was devolving power for broadcasting

in its entirety, not just S4C, from London to Cardiff.

And that the decisions were made there.

S4C need to be a part of that battle.

We also argued that S4C needed to reach out

and be a multimedia provider.

Cymdeithas yr Iaith are developing our channel. It's pioneering.

We begin broadcasting online on Sunday.

-S4C must look at similar projects.

-Channel 62, if I remember correctly.

There's a free plug for you. Rod Richards, where do you stand on this?

-Where does this quote come from?

-Gwyneth Lewis.

I struggled with this for a while.

But after thinking about it, yes it is interesting.

There is a role for S4C here.

I'm one of those people who is aware that my Welsh is not perfect,

compared to a number of people, and I always try to think what

William Morgan said in the Bible and if he said it then it was OK.

Honestly now, when I watch S4C, although people make mistakes,

I always listen carefully to people who speak good Welsh.

You're one of them, of course.

There's no need for that praise, Rod.

Bethan Rhys Roberts, Elinor Jones and Huw Llywelyn Davies.

But there is one point on which I disagree with Huw Llywelyn Davies.

He insists on Y Cymry Yn Llundain -

Carwyn James used to say Cymry Llundain.

And I'm on his side.

So correct language is important to you. Is that your basic point?

-It is important.

-Right.

Huw Jones, the chair of the S4C Authority is here.

Is that something that is a part of S4C's role?

Promoting and ensuring the future of the language,

-or are you here to entertain us?

-It has to be a little of both.

There is no doubt that a successful channel has a role to play

in the process of ensuring the future of the language,

Bethan has mentioned some of those elements within the current service.

Ron mentioned the opportunities...

He suggested that the vision went missing for some years.

Ron mentioned the opportunity that exists now

following the changes that have taken place to take another look

at a number of things and one thing we need to look at

is the way the channel's success is measured.

Until now, the measurement, especially when politicians wanted

to criticise the channel, is the viewing figures and nothing else.

If that is the only measure of success,

that drives programme makers in certain directions.

We know that appreciating programmes is just as important,

-if not more important.

-If a programme has low viewing figures,

they're going to get rid of it.

Yes, but what I'm trying to say is the reason for that happening

is that there is political pressure from outside to use

the viewing figures to undermine the channel.

We have also referred to the further contribution the channel makes

to the language, culture and the economy

and those measurements have not been acknowledged and accepted.

We're glad that the Assembly Government is showing

an interest in broadcasting.

It's important there is a good

relationship between the Assembly Government and Westminster.

Westminster legislates on how our money can be spent.

Sian Gwynedd... Hold on, Ron. OK, come on.

My company produces a weekly programme that does not get

a lot of viewers. It's an English programme.

It's a good example of what Huw is talking about.

We make Question Time for the BBC.

And the BBC is looking at viewing figures of only around a million

for it to be considered a success.

And the reason is what Huw referred to.

That it is appreciated as part of a service that is important

politically, important as part of the channel.

-But a million is different to a couple of thousand.

-No, it's not.

Not at all.

If we make the same assessment of what Sky does, Sky considers

it a success if they get 50,000 viewers for a rugby match.

It is the purpose of the programme, who it is aimed at

and I think what Huw is talking about is vital for the future.

We must be cleverer in assessing why we measure success in this way.

We need to find a new way.

Sian Gwynedd, head of Welsh programming at BBC Wales.

How do you respond to that? There is a duty to try and promote

and secure the future of the language, along with everything else.

I think our main duty is to provide gripping programmes,

quality programmes.

Ron Jones mentioned the role in the community.

Programmes that are relevant to audiences across Wales.

There is increased competition for viewers and listeners

and more channels than ever.

People don't choose to listen to Radio Cymru

just because it is Welsh. Welsh speakers deserve quality,

variety and programmes of the same quality that can compete with

a number of English programmes on other channels.

You're sat far apart tonight.

Can we expect cooperation between the BBC and S4C over the coming years?

Certainly, I think there are all kinds of opportunities.

One of the important things in general is using these media

as a way to fire people's imagination.

We're going back to why people choose to turn to Welsh,

or away from it. We must be a part of that.

I hope that working with the BBC will give more opportunity

for Welsh programmes to be on the BBC Network

in the future, dramas, it is a great opportunity.

-Simon Brooks.

-I'm glad there's a happy marriage!

This is a political subject

because of the amount of money spent on the service.

It is a significant amount.

We will need to watch the BBC, not Cardiff, not Sian Gwynedd,

but the BBC in London,

to ensure they don't siphon money from S4C over the coming decades.

We will all need to watch that process.

But to answer the question, yes, this media is important.

This is a field where we have been losing significant ground.

Not only as regards S4C, but also local radio.

Radio Ceredigion, for example.

-I think safeguarding that service is important.

-Thank you.

I'm sorry to say our time is up. We will have to have another programme.

Thank you to the audience and to the panel for our contributions.

Thank you and good night.