Aberdar Pawb a'i Farn

author and Marxist Gareth Miles,

Ann Beynon, the director of BT in Wales,

and Iestyn Davies of the Federation of Small Businesses.

Give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome once again.

After giving up Thursday evenings to others for a fortnight,

it's good to say that Pawb a'i Farn is back until the end of the month.

Perhaps we need a rest after that discussion we had about the future of the language.

Nevertheless, we've reached Aberdare by now,

and here in the leisure centre we have an audience of people from the Cynon Valley,

and some also from Pontypridd to the south and Merthyr Tydfil to the north.

There's no shortage of discussion topics - we received lots of questions, as ever.

And if you at home want to join in the debate in any way,

the usual addresses are on the screen.

Some information before we start - we'll be in Welshpool a week today,

and then Pwllheli for the last programme in the series.

Let's go to our first question, then.

It comes tonight from Gwyn Morgan. Gwyn, what's your question?

The closure of the Remploy factory

is the latest blow for the Cynon Valley.

Work is scarce, especially for young people,

and Aberdare looks very bleak.

What hope can the panel offer for an area like this?

Gwyn, thank you for our first question. A grave one, I must say.

The closure of the Remploy factory is the latest blow to this area,

work is scarce, especially for young people, and Aberdare, Gwyn says anyway, looks very bleak.

What hope can the panel offer, I wonder, for an area like this?

Can I start with you, Myrddin Edwards?

Closing the Remploy factory in this area is a huge blow,

not just this area but South Wales as a whole.

We've seen recently that the unemployment statistics

are very high in the Valleys, especially for young people,

and that's a terrible disappointment.

-But we're very glad in the Assembly...

-Do you oppose the decision?

-I do oppose it.

-Despite the fact the government you support pushed this through?

Well, we can disagree with what they do at Westminster,

because I don't think this is a wise and good decision

in the present time, without many jobs around.

I don't think the plans around this have been very good.

But having said that, there are a number of disability charities

like Disability Wales, MIND, Diversity Cymru and Scope,

who have said that this is not the best model for disabled people,

because we don't discriminate against

or segregate disabled children from other children in the classroom,

so why do we do it in the workplace?

-But one thing...

-Are you in favour or against? You've seen both sides of the argument.

Where exactly do you stand?

What I want to see... This money isn't being cut, there's £320 million, it's not being cut,

but it's to help disabled people find work,

but find work in places where they can work with other people,

to get equality.

It's a difficult decision, but I want to see people working together,

and that's what the Assembly's going to try and do now,

to get those disabled people working with other people in factories and workplaces.

Ann Beynon?

The problem we have is that the economy is not flourishing, there's not enough growth in the economy.

It happens to be that in our sector, telecommunications,

there is some amount of growth,

and we've been able to employ extra people over the last 12 months.

Not a significant number, but some 60 or 70 people.

-It won't fill the gap...

-Where are those jobs, can I ask?

-They're across Wales. But not in the Cynon Valley.

-No, they're not.

It doesn't mean people in the Cynon Valley shouldn't try for more jobs,

there will be some amount of jobs coming up over the year to come.

But what strikes me here is that there's been a lack of planning.

That is, if there had been talk for some time that the factories were going to close,

I think it's a shock to everyone how many factories in Wales have closed.

It's very unequal, how many in Wales have closed.

-Seven out of nine.

-Exactly.

So I don't see what planning was done to prepare for this.

They should have been training these people several months in advance,

and I'd like to see the details of why these seven were chosen.

I can't believe that the business argument of necessity is strong.

I feel that there's a secret agenda, and a lack of preparation,

and things have been done in a rushed way.

I think it's unfair to say there's a secret agenda.

I don't know if you're suggesting the Westminster government has a secret agenda,

because Labour did this back in 2007, and I don't want to blame...

We tend to blame the previous government, but Labour's hypocrisy is unbelievable.

They also closed factories in Wales. I don't think it's a secret agenda.

But that was during a time when things were perhaps better. By now, we're in the middle of a recession.

Why didn't Labour make sure they moved people out of these silos

-where disabled and non-disabled people work, why...

-Yes.

That's a fair enough point, Ann Beynon.

Yes, it is fair, but why then was the decision being prepared,

and it appears that there was preparation for some time

-to take this decision, why was there no discussion with charities?

-Right.

And I accept that charities do argue for mainstreaming disabled people,

-but did a discussion happen with them to help...

-Iestyn, you're welcome to discuss that point,

-but I'm also keen to extend the debate to talk about the Cynon Valley in general. Iestyn.

-Certainly.

And we have to accept the fact, however abhorrent the current situation is with Remploy,

that the economy needs restructuring.

I don't think anyone doubts that, if we accept the economic theory we have.

If you challenge that, well, you're welcome to, but most of us accept the situation,

that it's difficult and we have to restructure.

If you want to do that in South Wales Valleys areas,

or even other areas across Wales,

we have to develop an indigenous Welsh economy.

We've been over-dependent on benefits and jobs and investment flowing in from abroad,

so we have to start again and recreate an economic structure for us in Wales.

-But you yourself come from the Valleys, Iestyn.

-I do.

Is there any hope for areas like this one, or will the answer be commuting to Cardiff?

I don't think it's a big problem to travel from Aberdare to Cardiff,

or even to Bristol.

-I did that when I lived in Merthyr.

-That's acceptable, that's all right?

-For me, it depends.

-You agree with Iain Duncan Smith, down you go then, to Cardiff.

No, I disagree with Iain Duncan Smith, because he doesn't know the truth of the situation.

But for us who live in the Valleys, who were raised in the Valleys,

we do understand that we need to be strong enough

to raise our pack and say we'll move, because the challenge and the answer is for us,

and I think the people of Aberdare, Merthyr and the South Wales Valleys

are prepared to take that challenge and steer their own course.

Before we come to Gareth Miles, you two on the right,

the business experts, these companies aren't going to come up to Aberdare, are they?

They're not. There's a stream, an increase in apprenticeships, for example,

and skills for young people, that's happening in areas around the capital cities.

-I'm afraid that's inevitable.

-Right.

-And as someone from Merthyr, I think I can say that.

-But there is another way.

-That is, the possibility that people can work flexibly from home.

-Yes.

That is, a significant number of our workers, they have no office,

they work from their house.

But let's get this clear - BT won't bring any jobs to Aberdare.

We could - you could work for BT and live in Aberdare,

and work from home.

You don't have to move to the Cardiff office.

A lot of people working for us in Wales, a significant number, don't go into an office.

They can live in Harlech or wherever and work for BT.

And of course, there's the chance to create a business in these areas,

-businesses that serve the local economy.

-Right. We'll come back to that point shortly.

Gareth Miles, you come in on this.

Well, when I saw those people in the Rhondda, I think,

who'd just been told they'd lost their jobs, and I saw them in tears,

I thought of the words of Aneurin Bevan about the Tories,

"lower than vermin."

And that's what I thought.

Especially after hearing the hypocritical defence from one of the ministers.

How are these disabled people going to get jobs

when it's so hard for non-disabled people to get jobs?

And that this has happened so suddenly.

APPLAUSE

Well, that is, completely plainly,

Myrddin Edwards's party is part of this coalition that's putting these decisions into action.

Are you directing that comment to Myrddin Edwards, by your side?

Of course I am, of course.

You know, I think it's the only... The answer is...

That is, this is part of this government's attack on the welfare state.

In general.

They're in favour of privatisation, there's an attack on everything that's been won since 1945.

The only answer is a political answer -

there are two parties in this area that claim to be the heirs of Keir Hardie,

and I'd say that the only hope is for people to join those parties,

and insist that we oppose all these attacks.

It's an attack on the welfare state,

and I'm worried that restructuring this anti-proletarian, anti-democratic economy

won't do much.

But let's be realistic, we're in a period of economic slump,

we're in a period of cuts, and that's what this government is trying to put into practice.

The cuts are happening in response

to the bankers' rashness and gambling.

And the trick is, and they're succeeding, not only in London, but throughout Europe,

is to force the people who didn't cause the problem to suffer.

The bankers are as rich as ever.

-It is a problem.

-Yes.

-A problem for Aberdare, and a wider problem.

APPLAUSE There we are.

You have support in the audience. I want to come to you, the audience.

I see that some of you are eager to get a word in. Iestyn first.

I agree to some extent with Gareth,

yes, there are problems with the banks,

it's important that we come up with a new response

to the challenge before us in terms of capital

and money going into the markets,

but I can't agree that we have to depend on the old theory,

this old narrative that we have to return to the old systems and the old mindset.

-You don't think it will work?

-It won't. I'm sorry.

I'd be happy if it did work, but we have to look to the future, and that is a challenge for us all.

Myrddin Edwards, Gareth said "lower than vermin" about you.

-Well...

-No, not about them, they're a little bit...

LAUGHTER They're a little bit... A little bit higher.

The Liberals are servants to the culprits.

Well, you're quite wrong when you say this is a cut,

because that budget of £320 million is going to be protected.

This isn't a cut, it's restructuring.

-They're not cuts. The budget...

-But 270 people...

-These poor people, they're...

They haven't been forgotten, but the Government is going to help them go back into jobs,

and find jobs for them. It's not like they're saying, "You go."

-Do you really believe that?

-It's not a cut.

They're lying through their teeth. They're lying through their teeth.

The thing that concerns me is that I don't agree with the theory, and there are people here.

Why shouldn't disabled people be just as prepared and able

to maintain different jobs for themselves as part of the wider economy,

why shouldn't they be entrepreneurial and start businesses and jobs?

-That is, there's no need for factories especially for them.

-There isn't.

But I do agree that the timing of this is very bad at the moment.

You can come back in a moment, this is clearly a hot topic.

Gwyn Morgan, you asked the question, I'll come back to you first.

Well, we in the Valleys, our values are in people.

Erm... People are our future.

Talk of restructuring the working class is laughable.

We should restructure the way we support these banks,

and we should...

The target is always vulnerable.

Unemployed people, disabled people, people without any hope.

They're an easy target, and that's it.

Yes. What about Aberdare? You describe Aberdare as a bleak place, what about you?

You contribute on that, if you will.

Yes, by your side, there.

MUTTERING Gwyn, come from there.

Well, no, you know, that's it.

-The working class is a very easy target...

-Right.

-..and we should protect ourselves.

-All right. Behind you, there?

On the question of attracting industry to the area,

economists agree that the Assembly Government has made things worse

-through getting rid of the industry agency.

-The WDA.

-The WDA.

-Right.

And economists all agree that that was a mistake,

because the level of work flowing in for people in Wales has dropped

worse than in any other area.

Thank you very much for that. Les Davies.

It's utterly ridiculous to hear that man from the Dib-Dabs or the Lib-Labs,

-or whatever they call themselves...

-Myrddin Edwards is his name!

..saying that these decisions aren't cuts.

Of course they're cuts.

And not only financial cuts, but essentially, as Gareth Miles said,

they're cuts to people's lives, to their health,

to their facilities and their conditions.

And if there was any kind of plan to the thing, things would have been prepared for these people,

instead of throwing them to the wolves now.

And the truth is, of course, although our friend Iestyn there comes from Merthyr,

it's not fair to say that these disabled people

can get on bikes, trains and buses

and compete with non-disabled people to travel long distances.

-That's the nature of disability - that they need help.

-Yes.

All right. APPLAUSE

Thank you, Les Davies. Yes? You come in.

I'd like to extend an invitation to Iestyn to come to Merthyr to see a very successful project

where many Welsh jobs have been developed in the last year,

to see Menter Iaith in Merthyr, and see the work social enterprises are doing in the Valleys.

The picture isn't all negative in Merthyr Tydfil.

Right, OK, I'm sure Iestyn is listening carefully, and maybe can contribute.

-Yes, come in, teachers from Rhydywaun.

-I'll touch on the subject of disability.

As a family, I had a nine-year-old nephew, until last year, when we lost Ellis,

and I'd say, what does this tell us as a society

about our basic expectations for disabled people?

These families, who are either raising a disabled child

or with disabled adults in their family,

they have to fight for everything,

and that takes energy and a lot of effort.

Therefore I agree, they won't get on the train and travel to Cardiff.

What does this say about us as a society?

Even in a recession, we should protect the most vulnerable people in our society,

-and disabled people are part of that.

-There we are, your point has been made.

APPLAUSE Thank you very much.

Yes, there you are.

I'm of the opinion that the Assembly has to create some kind of specific strategy for the Valleys.

The Assembly has managed to transform the Bay,

millions and millions have been put into the Bay...

Perhaps it's easier to transform the Bay than the Valleys?

Well, it might be easier, but I don't see much money coming into the Valleys at the moment.

I don't see any particular strategy, although everyone says there's a strategy for the Valleys.

Which brings me back to the point, is it not going to be a place in future where people live,

but they have to travel, disabled or not, down to the M4 corridor to work.

But that's not right for everyone, is it?

You know, it's all right for some, some can and will do it, but that's not the answer.

Yes? Hands going up everywhere. Gwyn Griffiths, you come in.

You try getting a train from Pontypridd down to Cardiff to work.

-It costs significant money to...

-But think of how much people travel into London.

They pay a fortune to do that.

That's their business, but they earn big money to travel in.

I knew people who travelled from Southampton to London, you know,

-and they earned good money.

-Yes.

Things like that, and they got money,

they got a loan from the BBC in advance, you know, to pay for a season ticket, you know.

-That is, if you go down...

-That belongs to the past, I can assure you.

-Maybe it does.

But if you go down from Pontypridd to Cardiff, and you go on a train that's full, with nowhere to sit,

-and the place is...

-Right.

-..the facilities are terrible, and it costs terribly.

-But let me get back to...

-Briefly, Gwyn.

-..this Remploy business.

The point is about Remploy is that the factories are successful,

-they're all... Their order books are full, and they're... You know...

-Yes.

-That is, why is this happening?

-Right, thank you, Gwyn.

Nia, you come in.

There was a discussion on Radio 2 this lunchtime

on exactly the same topic we're talking about at the moment, I'll go back to Gwyn's question.

The woman was talking about her son,

who didn't just have a job with Remploy,

but was getting training to go into the general job market,

and that step will now be lost, too.

So it's not just providing jobs but also training and chances to move forward to the next step,

and that won't be available any more.

Thank you very much, yes.

APPLAUSE

Right, two more voices from the audience, if I may, Gethin Wilde, if you come in.

One thing to mention about development in the Valleys,

this rhetoric of turning trends back and relocating industry in the Valleys,

goes against the flow of history, because there have been policies

in terms of economic development in Wales since the Sixties,

of moving industries to the border, so we're trying to turn back...

So you agree with Iestyn, that won't change.

No, but having said that, that doesn't mean it's justified, either.

-Right.

-And communities in the Valleys, despite the fact that they're suffering,

are still very united as social units.

-There we are. Martyn Geraint, in the dullest-coloured shirt here tonight.

-Thanks.

Does it show that politicians don't think of the people?

As Gwyn said, the people are the important thing,

and I think politicians forget about people,

and as Myrddin said, there is money there,

but if they'd planned in advance, there would be jobs ready for these people straight away.

Seeing these people in tears was terrible PR, wasn't it?

Thank you. Now, panel, a brief chance for you to respond to what you've heard.

-Iestyn. You've had an invitation to visit Merthyr.

-I'm looking forward to going back to Merthyr.

I agree that we have a lack of strategy here, and bad timing,

which essentially reveals the true thinking of the Westminster government, I agree with that.

But I also agree that we can't turn back the tide of history.

I'm sorry. I'd like to have some kind of Tardis we can all go into and go back to other decades.

-But it's not going to happen.

-It's not.

-Ann?

-I think the point of transport is key, because it's important that transport in the Valleys is good,

and it's not, it's terrible. So it's important that the Assembly has the right to borrow money,

because that's one project that needs to be funded,

ands I do worry that things like HS2 get so much money,

and the money is needed for transport down here.

Gareth Miles.

The Remploy factories belong to a time when the principle was co-operation.

Now... And Britain was poorer in that time than it is now.

Now, competition is the aim.

In terms of moving backwards,

I think this government wants to move backwards.

It wants to go back to the Thirties and the 19th century.

-That's what they're trying to do.

-The last word to you, Myrddin, if I may.

Is there a danger, as suggested by some in the audience, that this government will forget about people,

-especially in areas like the Cynon Valley?

-Well...

I wasn't overly fond of the decision they made,

and their timing wasn't very good at all.

But, as I said, the money is there,

and that money will go to help people get training and go into jobs.

But then, the point you were making in the question, about young people, in the original question,

I'm very happy about what we could do in the Assembly as an opposition party,

was agree with Labour to get 1,800 apprenticeships for young people,

and so to train them and ensure that when the jobs come, that there are enough people to fill these jobs.

Right. On that note, thank you very much. A lively start to our programme on the subject of economics.

Let's move on to the second question of the night from Hawys James. What's your question, Hawys, please?

In a new book, Heini Gruffudd will recommend learning Welsh with fewer grammatical rules.

Will that give a real boost to Welsh learners,

or encourage people to use slang?

Hawys, thank you very much.

Here we are, a linguistic topic again,

always popular on Pawb a'i Farn.

In a new book, it seems, Heini Gruffudd will recommend learning Welsh with fewer grammatical rules.

Will that give a real boost to Welsh learners,

or encourage people to use slang?

You'd never believe it, you used to be something of an expert in this field, Ann Beynon, years ago.

-How about it?

-I was, I was.

I did a degree in Welsh, and did research on Welsh grammar in the 16th century.

And I'm fond of grammar, I'm afraid.

Do you consider yourself a purist, then?

Well, in one way I'm a purist, because I like correct Welsh,

but I also worry about the lack of use of the Welsh language.

So I'd rather have someone using slang, to be honest,

than not using Welsh at all.

And I'm very unhappy when purists criticise people

whose Welsh is less thoroughbred, or who are learning,

because that doesn't help anyone.

And I think we as Welsh speakers, those of us who are fluent,

yes, we have to keep our own standards up,

and we have to avoid ever judging people who really are learning.

-The thing is...

-That is, it's better to speak some kind of Welsh...

-Yes.

-Than none at all.

-Yes.

But also, I have to say, there's a faction of Welsh speakers

who have good Welsh, but don't choose to use it,

and they set a bad example.

They make me angrier than anyone, because it's important that we all,

when we can speak Welsh, to use Welsh.

And if people in professional jobs, in public environments,

choose not to do that, it sends a very negative message.

Gareth Miles? I don't know where you stand on this, to be honest.

Well, I think it's important that everyone, in any language,

speaks the best possible language.

And to be perfectly honest, I don't see the point of encouraging slang,

Anglo-Saxon culture has translated that slang.

I think, if you want to say something of value,

you have to use polished language.

So you wouldn't encourage people who are learning to...

-No, I think everyone should...

-What Caryl Parry Jones once called "Slack Welsh."

Well, say that... No, if people are learning French or German,

they do their best to speak that language...

But we're losing huge numbers of learners because, according to Heini Gruffudd,

our teaching is poor and too difficult.

Well, I don't know about poor teaching, but certainly,

perhaps more has to be invested in that, I don't know,

but, no, I feel that, you know, I agree with Ann, too,

that in our public life,

the terrible thing is to hear Welsh speakers refusing to use simultaneous translation facilities.

The other thing that gets under my skin

is when first-language Welsh speakers,

they'll speak slang in Welsh but speak posh English.

-That...

-He hasn't got as much patience as you, Ann.

It's part of our urban complexities.

From a business viewpoint, what we're seeing

is a low take-up in our Welsh services.

That worries me.

Even simple things like an ATM, hole in the wall, for the bank.

It seems only a few use that. And that's so easy.

Now then audience, how about it?

I think the learners will love the book.

While the grammar experts will hate it, maybe.

The purpose is, to have those who are learning Welsh

to gain confidence to join and talk.

That's so important.

Ann Beynon was saying that the naturally Welsh speaking people,

well, some of them, they don't speak proper Welsh themselves.

They aren't trying.

But is the attitude of someone like Gareth Miles make it harder

for people in the Cynon Valley to give it a go,

neglecting some learners and making it difficult for them to carry on?

That's the problem. Thousands of people start but they don't carry on.

-No, because it's too difficult.

-Because it's too difficult.

-I learned Welsh myself years ago.

-Did you?

And then I was a Welsh teacher, as a second language, for 38 years.

I know of all the obstacles.

Kevin Davies, are you still with Menter Iaith?

Yes, Rhondda Cynon Taf.

One thing we do see is the way Welsh is being taught

asks for so much time and energy from the learners.

The point being made here is there is a need

for a simple and basic course at the beginning

so people can go on to learn it the way it's being taught now.

The current Welsh classes are quite tied to the classroom,

you have to turn up to the classes.

What about this idea of less grammar?

I'm a strong believer in that, as you know Dewi!

As someone who has never used grammar properly!

I've been talking Welsh for 48 years

and my grammar is all over the place.

Who are we to criticise people who are learning Welsh?

There needs to be two tiers of learners, if you like.

We need this basic level Heini Griffiths was talking about,

and then move on to the level we're currently offering.

-Thank you, Kevin. Let's go over here.

-I think it's very important.

I think the most important thing for everyone,

and we saw this in the last Pawb a'i Farn,

the use of the language in the community is the important thing.

But I have to mention Menter Iaith.

There are many of them across Wales...

But are people reluctant to use Welsh?

They feel it isn't good enough?

-It's all about confidence.

-How about the pupils of Rhydywaun.

It is difficult sometimes when we're learning to remember

every piece of grammar because we're learning other languages

such as French. To remember the correct Welsh grammar as well,

it's a lot for us to take on.

-Do your teachers correct your Welsh?

-All the time!

Where are the teachers?

I'll let you come back in in a minute Kevin.

There has been a problem with Welsh.

Maybe some people are over emphasising things like mutations.

-You taught Welsh?

-Yes, and there's a way to over-emphasise that.

I don't want to criticise Heini Griffiths,

but I remember him telling me that fewer verbs were needed.

Forgive me, Heini, if you're watching,

not "I have got a book" but "I've got a book".

We need to prioritise.

Over-emphasising mutations isn't prioritising,

they're on the sidelines which stop fluency and confidence.

But you have to protect standards.

You have to stick to the foundation of a language

and that protects the verbs.

But it depends on how you do that.

If you don't protect standards, you will lose understanding

and when you lose that, you could lose a language.

Come in.

I work with some of the pupils who are in the audience tonight.

I'd prefer to hear them talking Welsh with a few mistakes

than listening to them speaking Wenglish.

As Caryl said, better slang Welsh than slick English?

I understand standards need to be kept

but I'd prefer to hear more Welsh than Wenglish.

Kevin, quickly.

We deal with non-Welsh speaking parents who send their children to

Welsh schools. They want to learn the language but you try learning it

when you have two children. You can't give it time.

Learning a vocabulary, how to say it, and go on from there.

So you think there's something wrong with the learning process?

Maybe it's too blinkered.

Now then, Myrddin.

I'm sitting between Ann and Gareth here

but I've got experience in learning a language as I did Spanish

and French in university and lived in France and Spain for a time.

The Spanish and French grammar rules are difficult

but you should persevere.

When you live in a different country the aim is to speak to someone

from that country and for them to ask you where you come from

and for them to think you're local.

-I was talking to Welsh learners today.

-I take it you're a linguist?

Not many come into that band.

That's true but I'm going to disagree with myself.

The development of a language is something organic.

If something doesn't work in the language we lose it.

It's evolution.

When you mentioned verbs, there are ways of forgetting about them

and we remember the easier versions.

I think the language will develop naturally for learners.

-Iestyn, some people call for standards.

-No.

-No standards?

-What you need is self-confidence.

For the children in Merthyr, Aberdare - keep on talking Welsh.

Don't let it go. There are people in the audience tonight who gave me

the confidence to speak Welsh as someone

who came from a non-Welsh speaking background.

-I nearly lost it due to...

-Was there a lack of confidence there?

Definitely.

When you come from a non-Welsh speaking background,

the first thing you lose when you meet Welsh first language speakers

is the confidence to speak Welsh and to express yourselves.

Don't ever lose that. Keep on going.

That's the important thing.

Grammar, mutations - forget it. Confidence is most important.

There we go.

Many thanks to you all. It's time for us to move on.

Join us after in Aberdare the break.

Welcome back to Pawb a'i Farn from Aberdare.

We are having an interesting debate on things.

Let's move on to our next question asked by Ffion Wyn Jones.

What's your question?

After the deaths of six soldiers this week,

isn't it time for British forces to leave Afghanistan

as soon as possible?

Many thanks. After the deaths of six soldiers in one attack this week,

isn't it time for British forces to leave Afghanistan?

Let's start with you, Iestyn.

As a parent with sons the same age as the soldiers who died,

I'm nearly screaming to take them out.

It's time for this to be brought to an end.

But at the same time I understand, unlike Iraq maybe,

there's a reason to be in Afghanistan.

We need a long-term plan.

It's time for the political plan to be made

so we know what the end game is in this process.

I don't think that withdrawing the soldiers now would

benefit the families of the soldiers who have died

or to the hundreds who have died from the British forces.

But remember this when you're mourning for these six,

there are thousands and thousands of Afghan people have died

whose stories haven't been told on the news.

It's much bigger.

The news about the six young soldiers is very sad

but a sadder story is told about the Afghan people.

The suggestion is they should leave by the end of 2014.

Would you stick with that timetable?

If that is valid, if there's a reason for doing that as well

and a plan in place to put something back into Afghanistan, then yes.

If we need to stay there for a longer time, we should do that too.

Gareth Miles.

What's the reason for Britain being in Afghanistan?

It was the need for politicians like Tony Blair to be best friends

with George Bush.

-To get rid of al-Qaeda?

-To get rid of al-Qaeda? No, I don't think so.

They were people from Saudi Arabia. Friends of George Bush.

But weren't they training in the Tora Bora mountains?

Well, maybe...

Whatever about that. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

Who can believe what was said?

Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons.

I don't believe them. They lie about the reason why we're there.

Which army is out there? NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Does the North Atlantic stretch right out to Afghanistan?

So the answer to the question is, to leave as soon as possible.

Leave as soon as possible.

How many more families will be in mourning in two years' time?

How many, how many, how many more 18-year-old boys are going to die?

How many will come back missing their limbs?

That's the price being paid.

Myrddin Edwards.

I was shaking my head there because I think it's unwise

to remove them now with the country in such a fragile situation.

The Taliban still has its grip on the country

as we've seen during this week with the deaths of six soldiers.

If we withdraw now and the Taliban is back in control,

the sacrifice made by these six soldiers

and the sacrifices made by all the soldiers and people

in Afghanistan who have died over the years, will count for nothing.

The Taliban will be back in power.

I am happy there is a timetable for withdrawal by 2014.

What the British army, and the French

and American armies are currently doing are training the Afghan army

to make sure they can look after themselves.

There is a long-term plan to make sure the Afghan army can ensure...

Should we be interfering in this type of situation?

That's the bigger question.

What if we let the Taliban come back in Afghanistan?

Who knows what they'll do if they're back in power.

They are going to come back. The war is lost.

The war is lost. They might as well recognise that.

President Karzai's government is completely corrupt.

They're completely corrupt.

Why are you asking for the sacrifice of these young people

-Would you send your own children there?

-Ann Beynon.

After reading the books written by Khaled Hosseini

who is an author from Afghanistan, and the way he describes

the lives of people there especially the women, is heartbreaking.

It is truly heartbreaking.

I don't think we can withdraw troops from there immediately,

we have to have a plan in place.

I agree with Gareth that the government there is corrupt.

It isn't a responsible government.

My biggest fear is we'll end up being in the same situation

as we were in Iraq.

Nouri al-Maliki in Iraq is a close friend of Ahmadinejad in Iran.

After fighting a war and putting someone in place...

So, what's the point of staying there?

It's important we learn lessons.

If we leave there in 30 months,

we have to make sure what's left behind is fair.

-Are you convinced that's going to happen?

-No!

I'm not confident it will be fair system. I'm not confident at all.

I am concerned that we will have wasted some time

and that's heartbreaking.

But I don't think that a quick withdrawal will help anyone.

I think the Taliban will come back in power and kill people/

How about someone from the audience?

If we stay there until 2014 or even longer than that,

how can we be sure the Taliban won't wait until then?

What kind of plans are in place to rid Afghanistan of them by then?

I can't see there are any. The plans don't exist.

-So the soldiers might as well leave?

-Exactly.

-You in the back.

We'll never beat the Taliban.

-In 50 years' time, they'll still be there. What are we to do?

-No point?

Are we going to stay there for another 50 years?

Many thanks. Ffion, you asked the question.

Let's have the microphone down there.

I'd like to emphasise the fact that the withdrawal of troops

will help other families.

I have a cousin out in Afghanistan

and his mother is worried every night that he's going to be killed

or something's going to happen to him.

It's important for us to help and support the families

of these soldiers rather than worrying when they're leaving.

-To make sure other soldiers aren't killed, you want them all home?

-Yes.

-How about you?

-I've got a bit of experience in this field.

I was in the RAF for eight years in the '60s.

I was out in Aden, in Yemen.

We have talked about Iraq and Afghanistan

but how many people remember Aden?

We lost as many men and women out in Aden as they did in Iraq.

We need to leave Afghanistan, we have to talk to the Taliban.

Terrorism works.

George Austin. Hywel Price, you can have the last word.

I think the deaths of these six has struck home with society.

Historically, Britain has failed for centuries in Afghanistan,

since the 19th century.

Russia failed in the 1980s.

It's obvious proof that every campaign in Afghanistan fails.

Even the opium crop, and the efforts to stop the spread of heroin,

they grow huge quantities of that, the whole thing is a mess.

-So you think we should withdraw?

-Definitely.

Hywel Price, the headmaster of Ysgol Rhydywaun, thank you.

Join us again in Aberdare in two minutes after this short break.

Welcome back. It's nice to have your company on this Thursday evening

and thank you for all of your contributions on Twitter.

Let's move on to the next question.

We've heard from him a few times already this evening.

Les Davies, what's your question.

The plans to restructure the electoral boundaries

of the Cynon Valley are ridiculous

because they ignore history and social patterns.

What's the panels' opinion?

This question came up several times so it's obviously something

that's angering you here in the Cynon Valley.

What's the problem, Les? Can you elaborate?

The plans here by the Liberal Democrats

are unnecessary and artificial.

The plan is to split the Cynon Valley into three parts.

The highest part, the north, the head, will be a gift to Merthyr.

The bottom, the feet, as it were, will be a gift to Pontypridd.

The middle, the body, will be a gift to the Rhondda.

So we're disappearing.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but why not?

Because it goes against the guidelines and the rationalism

of the entire plan, even the guidelines of the commission itself.

But we need larger constituencies. Something has to give.

According to the Liberals, but nobody else thinks that,

especially now when those who strongly support the union

see that there's a problem with that union,

with Scotland going in that direction.

And what these Liberals are suggesting

is a reduction in Welsh representation.

I would argue that it's very untimely and unnecessary.

Let's start with you Myrddin.

There was a reference to the Liberals there.

If you feel so strongly against this, you have an opportunity,

as a member of the public, to talk in this commission.

It is travelling around Wales. This decision hasn't been settled.

What this independent commission is doing is looking at the boundaries.

It's not being led by the Government.

Do you sympathise with Les?

I don't live in the area, but if you feel so strongly,

you need to talk to this commission that's travelling around Wales,

listening to people like you saying this.

-Everyone is already.

-Good, and I hope the commission listens to you.

Ann Beynon, do you have any sympathy? Why does it matter?

Regional pride is important.

If people in this area feel strongly about their identity as a region,

I can understand the emotion...

But what if that region has too few voters?

There are several aspects of public life in Wales

that could be smaller, for example the number of councillors.

I think we have too many local authorities.

Work is ongoing to try and get them to cooperate.

I understand that's easier than expensive restructuring.

So the tendency is to share services to reduce numbers

because we are three million people

and there are too many representatives.

And also, the Assembly is getting stronger in Cardiff.

That's a very good point.

And also, Hirwaun has always been a part of Merthyr, in my view!

That's another important thing to remember.

However, we're much too territorial in Wales.

-History is an important thing.

-Les says community is important.

There will still be a community in the Cynon Valley

and the history and heritage of the Cynon Valley will still exist,

as it does in Merthyr.

But we have to look to the future.

What this has emphasised is that the Assembly is the best forum

to understand the community needs of areas like Merthyr and Aberdare.

For me, this puts Westminster back to one side

and pushes it to the sidelines.

Gareth Miles?

The idea of connecting a part of the Cynon Valley

with the Rhondda Valley seems very odd to me.

-Because there's a mountain between them?

-There is that.

It makes me think of what happened in Africa

when the imperial countries split that continent up

and drew straight lines

without considering the feelings of local people,

or geographic or community differences.

Les Davies, you're part of Rhondda Cynon Taff,

why not be a part of a different constituency?

Rhondda Cynon Taff is a bit of a nightmare as well!

I agree with the man from Merthyr. Our links are with Merthyr.

The Catholic children of Aberdare go to Merthyr.

Merthyr's Welsh speaking children come to Aberdare.

We're not arguing in favour of change by challenging these plans,

but the kinds of changes being suggested.

Thank you. We have to hurry but I want to get this final question in.

It comes from Sarah Crowley.

Does the panel believe the custom of wearing a tie

will disappear in the next few years?

Does the panel believe the custom of wearing a tie

will disappear in the next few years?

Ann Beynon?

I've already decided not to wear a tie!

It's odd,

the only thing men can wear that shows their character is a tie.

It's just a bit of material. It doesn't make sense to me. Why a tie?

But if the tie disappears,

I'd like to see men wearing more colourful clothes

and bring colours back.

It's very boring. All these men are in dark clothes, and so am I.

Let's have a camera on Martin Geraint this minute!

That's the future. Martin Geraint is the future!

Do you honestly see me presenting Pawb a'i Farn in a shirt like that?

In 10 years!

-Myrddin, you're obviously a tie man.

-I am. Ann has a good point.

It's the only way we can show our personality.

I'm not sure if the audience can see my socks but I have pink socks on!

So Ann has a good point but I don't want to lose the tie.

Someone in the audience has the same tie as me

so we obviously have the same sort of character.

You're the only man on the panel without a tie, Gareth Miles.

-Is that some kind of statement?

-No.

If I was wearing a suit, I'd be wearing a tie.

I would never wear a tie with the kind of clothes I'm wearing now.

I don't like seeing politicians who try to dress down

with a suit but no tie.

That's it. We've run out of time.

I'll continue to wear a tie, that's for sure!

From Aberdare, thank you for watching. Goodbye.