Y Trallwng Pawb a'i Farn

singer and former president of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Iwan,

Elinor Gwynn, an official at the Countryside Council for Wales,

and the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies.

Please give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

As we are every year, we've been drawn back to northern Powys

by the warm welcome of Montgomeryshire.

They say the welcome refers to the people as well as the landscape.

We'll see how welcoming they are

during the next hour at Welshpool Leisure Centre.

I suspect wind energy will get their blood flowing.

Don't forget our usual addresses.

And if you want to come to the last programme in the series,

we'll be in Pwllheli next Thursday.

Our first question here in Welshpool comes from Councillor Aled Davies.

What hope does the new leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, have

of securing more support for the party?

A timely question from Councillor Aled Davies.

The Tory councillor, Aled Davies.

What hope does the new leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, have

of securing more support for the party?

I think I'll start with the former president, Dafydd Iwan, if I may?

Every hope in the world, Dewi.

I'd like to congratulate Leanne on a significant victory.

That's significant. And I wish her well.

I announced my support for Leanne.

But the decision was very tight.

I could see that every candidate had different strengths.

That's what made the race so interesting.

They had something different to offer. They had weaknesses too.

I'm glad Leanne won because I think, as the campaign went on,

we saw an increase in the support for her

because the party membership realise that it's time to change gear.

We've had a period of leadership under Ieuan,

and I don't mean this as a criticism,

but we were just in safe hands.

I think the members feel it's time for us to start taking more risks.

We're talking about stabilising a government for Wales,

moving towards independence, and that means taking risks.

So electing Leanne Wood is taking a risk?

There's an element of risk

and she'll put her foot in it now and again

but we have to give out a clear message

and challenge the British system.

After all, we're breaking down the British system

and creating a better one.

Leanne will be a good team leader. That's what she'll be.

I'll come back to you. Glyn Davies, what do you make of the choice?

It's interesting and I don't know how to answer the question.

It's too early to tell whether she'll gain more support

but I have to congratulate Leanne.

I know Leanne. I worked with her at the Assembly.

I didn't expect her to win, but I think she'll change things.

I think she'll change the leadership and the party.

That's what she wants to do.

She'll also change the way people campaign.

What has she put into this?

She has inspired young people,

attracted young people back to Plaid Cymru.

People will use Twitter and use blogs in the future

when they are campaigning.

She certainly won't want to work with your party.

Well, I must say, the possibility of a coalition government existing

between the Tories and Plaid Cymru is a lot less likely than it was.

Yes, it's over. Rhys Williams?

I agree with Glyn. It's a very interesting choice.

-But...

-Are you worried about it, as a unionist?

I'm not sure if I'm worried because one thing that is true,

and Dafydd Iwan might disagree,

but Leanne has never won an election

apart from the one within Plaid Cymru.

She's a regional Assembly Member, there's nothing wrong with that.

But that's an election, Rhys.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas said they're all equal

but Ieuan Wyn was a constituency Member,

Elin Jones was constituency Member

and, for the first time, Plaid Cymru has elected someone who hasn't won an election.

I think Leanne Wood is very interesting

and I admire her on many levels.

But I question whether she has support within her own party.

-You can answer that, Dafydd.

-The result proves she has.

Well, among people like you,

who work hard and are outspoken.

But for the quite people who vote every year...

Is she a leader your party will worry about

because her stronghold is in the Valleys,

where she could attract Labour votes?

But she's never won an election in the Valleys.

That's an ambiguous point, to be fair. She was elected as leader.

Does that worry you?

I think that's an important point.

The Labour Party introduced this dual system of electing Members

and there's no need talk about a first class Member

and a second class.

She won an election through the proportional system.

She represents people. And she won this election with a big majority.

If we took a photo of her out on the streets of Welshpool,

how many people would recognise her?

Would they say, "Who is she?"

The press and the media have given this race more coverage

than anything else the party has done for many years.

You have to ask why. I think Leanne made it interesting and different.

As Glyn mentioned, she has attracted young members.

I know that some of my children joined the party for the first time

because Twitter and Facebook drew them in to the dialogue.

Some of the ideas captured their imagination.

Let's hear from Elinor Gwynn.

In terms of the question, can Leanne secure more support,

I would say so, as the other two candidates would have.

But it's also a challenge.

I think the race itself caused excitement

and that will benefit the party in terms of attracting new members.

Maybe people are looking for something different and radical.

And maybe the excitement in Scotland

has made people want the innovative approach.

But it will be a challenge to combine her radicalism

with a conservatism which is innate in us in Wales.

And to combine radicalism and pragmatism.

But people have rightly said that she communicates well.

I think she's managed to put across her vision for Plaid Cymru.

But you wouldn't compare her with Alex Salmond, would you?

In terms of communication?

Leadership.

Well, I think communication is very important in a leader

and she has the ability, as somebody said on the radio,

she listens very well.

I've also seen her ask penetrating questions.

Let's go to the audience. I will come back to you.

Aled, you asked the question.

I think Leanne will move the party to the left.

In this part of the world, Montgomeryshire,

members of the party are natural Conservatives.

I'm sure that's good news for Glyn.

Do you see that as good news, Glyn?

I don't think today is the day to say that.

You're being very respectful.

Gwenllian Davies, you used to be chief executive of Plaid Cymru.

What do you make of this choice?

It's a bold choice and I think it will inspire

a new generation of nationalists across Wales.

Leanne is the sort of person we can relate to.

I can assure Aled and others

that many farmers in Montgomeryshire voted for Leanne.

She's the type of character who can unite the nation.

Will there be room for the nationalist Tories Aled referred to

in this party, which will be to the left of Labour?

Don't forget that Leanne won 57% of the vote within the party

so she must have secured support from communities across Wales,

from Arfon to Dwyfor Meirionnydd to Ceredigion to Dyfed and so on.

I think she is the sort of person who will unite the nation

and offer a clear vision for independence and give us confidence.

Aled, come back to that.

I'm not really sure.

I can see that Leanne will cause problems for Labour.

She will be after the same votes as Labour.

But I don't think she'll get much traction in this part of the world.

Robin Benbo, what do you think?

When I saw that she'd won,

I went on Wikipedia to see who Leanne Wood was.

I think many will feel the same.

If you're a member of the party, you'll know,

but the general public won't know.

But she hasn't started. She needs a chance.

It's the same with the people down at the Assembly.

Who are these people? We don't hear about them in Mid Wales.

And they don't hear... We can go and get out voices heard

but there's not much communication between the Assembly

and the general public.

Myfanwy Alexander?

One of Leanne's strengths is the link she has with her communities.

I think it would benefit members of all parties

to resurrect that link between local communities and policies.

I think Leanne is the right person to take that forward.

What about you? Can we have the microphone?

I think the Tories are worried.

Glyn has changed his tie due to what's happened(!)

LAUGHTER

-Yes, it's...

-Prince of Wales.

I can't see it properly.

Prince of Wales feathers.

-DAFYDD:

-I don't think that would appeal to Leanne(!)

LAUGHTER

Rhys Williams? Come back on this.

I think...

I don't want to sound bitter or like an old Labour member.

I think it's an interesting choice

and I agree that it will cause problems for Labour

because she will attract votes from the left.

But I can see, looking in from the outside,

I can see problems for Plaid Cymru.

It's interesting that Dafydd Iwan supported Leanne Wood

because I wonder what the majority of member

in Arfon or Anglesey will think.

-Will they support Leanne?

-That's what happened during the campaign.

I was surprised how strong the support was from people

who didn't know her well but thought she offered something different.

To put it in a wider context,

people are very frustrated these days and they are frightened

because of two things.

The threat of climate change in the long-term

because they know that is starting to happen.

And, secondly, the failure of capitalism.

What happened in 2008, and the continuing crisis.

We have to look for something different.

Did you support her because she's more of a protest politician?

There's no purpose to a protest politician. We all protest.

And we're all conservative sometimes.

What's important is that we look for different answers

to the world's problems

and this community element, some call it fantasy,

is going to be important in the future.

Glyn?

Robin Benbo said that people haven't heard of Leanne Wood

and that's true.

Dafydd El has been the president since...

-The beginning.

-..decades.

And Elin Jones has been a Minister.

Everyone in rural Wales knows Elin Jones and Dafydd El,

but they don't know Leanne Wood. She's new, that's why.

-But that's why she appeals to some people.

-We can leave it there.

Thanks to the panel and the audience.

Our next subject could be the most controversial.

Join us again in Welshpool in around two minutes.

Welcome back. We're in Welshpool for this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

Let's move on to our second question which comes from Gwyn Jones.

While the rest of the world is producing more carbon each year,

is it fair that a small area like this

is overrun by windfarms and thousands of pylons?

Thanks, Gwyn.

Is it fair that a small area like this

is overrun by windfarms, pylons and turbines?

What do you make of this issue, Rhys?

It would be easy to give a popular answer but I would feel uneasy

because I don't understand the definition of "fair" in the question.

I was born and raised in a house which faced a coal mine.

Every morning, when I woke up, I saw the coal mine.

My grandfather was killed in that coal mine

20 years before I was born.

Now, I don't know how many people have been killed

by these wind turbines.

I don't know how effective they are.

But I do know that it's relatively easy to get rid of turbines.

If you go back to the village where I was born and raised,

you wouldn't know a coal mine had been there.

Things have changed.

There's no work, of course, but there's no coal mine either.

When I was a child,

I got to know places like Trefeglwys and Llanidloes because I knew people

who lived in the village

and had come from the countryside to work in the coal mine.

I would go back to Trefeglwys and Llanidloes to see those places.

I hope we're all familiar

with novels by T. Rowland Hughes - William Jones.

In answer to the question,

you think it's fair that these turbines are built in Powys.

-I'm not sure whether "fair" is the word.

-Use a better word.

I may not be politically correct these days

but it's different.

But you're saying everyone has to make a contribution

and that could mean a wind turbine in Powys.

Talking about making a contribution, if we could turn back the clock,

the miners in South Wales and quarrymen in North Wales,

was it fair that they had to live the way they did? No.

-Glyn Davies?

-I think it's unfair.

I think the majority of people who live here think it's unfair as well.

I am going to do everything in my power

to stop windfarms and pylons being built.

The development companies want to come to the area

but I want to stop them.

I work in Westminster and a lot of local people

have told me they want it stopped.

I do lay some of the blame on the Government.

I'm part of the Westminster Government, in the coalition.

I think it puts too much money towards supporting windfarms.

And I also blame the Assembly Government.

They decided to locate windfarms and pylons in Mid Wales.

But why not? What is unfair about that?

What is unfair?

It's unfair because it destroys the landscape.

-It destroys...

-Does the fact this happened...

Excuse me. What happened in the area where Rhys was raised,

you don't see that as an argument?

I hope we've learned something.

I know what happened. No-one would do that now.

I know it was a mistake

when the company came in and damaged South Wales.

I understand what Rhys is saying.

No-one wants that to happen. We've learned lessons.

If someone comes in like the Mid Wales Connection,

there are too many turbines and pylons,

and the people of Montgomeryshire and Mid Wales blame the Government.

Let's find out if that's what people think.

Gwyn, you asked the question.

I think it's ineffective in the face of global warming.

What are a few pylons here going to do?

You can almost negate it.

They're asking us to pay.

Is that a reason not to do it? They say, do the little things.

-That's how we reach...

-But this is to small.

Countries like China are producing one...

they're producing energy from coal-fired power stations every week.

What difference is this going to make?

But does that mean we shouldn't do anything?

We need to look at ways...

No emphasis is placed on saving energy.

We're just continually using more.

-Yes?

-I feel that there are too many in one place.

If the whole of Wales took a little bit here, a little bit there...

I put to you the argument that it's already happened in many parts of Wales.

Look at Anglesey, parts of Ceredigion, the North Wales coast.

I drive along the A470 fairly often, up through Trawsfynydd,

up to the north and there are already pylons there.

The nuclear power station has been at Trawsfynydd for a long time.

Why not put them up there? If there were some there, some in North Wales,

-that's what I see as being unfair. They all want to come here.

-There are other hands being raised.

Right at the back.

The difference with the coal mines in the south

and the windfarms here is that the mines created jobs.

There are no jobs here.

Yes. Thank you very much. Yes?

This area, there are already 250 wind turbines here.

They're hoping to add another 600. 40% of Mid Wales will be affected.

The energy created is around 11% of the power station in Pembrokeshire.

I live in the village of Abermule.

This may mean building a hub the size of 13 football pitches,

not next to the village, but in the village.

There will be seven lines coming in

and one line going out.

There is no sense in that.

We do not deserve this at all.

Right. Come back in.

I have to give the other viewpoint

because I have to ask myself the question - thinking about the children and the future,

we must take responsibility for energy. I agree with Gwyn.

The question is how we can save energy so we use less.

I don't think pointing the finger at other countries is the answer.

It's our industry and our industrial history that is responsible.

China is also leading the way in developing solar energy.

They're leading the world in research and technology.

So I'm not happy with pointing the finger at other parts of the world.

If we want to use electricity,

we have to find an answer regarding how we produce it.

It's not good enough to just say, "It can go on the M62."

So are you prepared to see the pylons

and the turbines coming to your back garden?

We've got the technology.

Our society has the technology to put lines underground.

It's expensive, but it's possible. I think that's the way forward.

Of course it would affect any area.

But I want to be able to say to my children,

"We must take responsibility."

So you've made your contribution.

The question is, how do you put the turbine underground?

-Well, come back in on that.

-You can't put a turbine underground.

-But you're happy to see them.

-I think there is an important question...

If 600 of them come to Montgomery, you're happy about that?

I'd like to see how they are distributed. I think there is a question of fairness,

if they are all in one place, but you're right.

They're all over the country. If you drive through France, you see them everywhere.

-They make an important contribution.

-Thank you very much. Robin?

-But I think it does come down to fairness.

All parts of Wales should have a target,

how much energy they produce and how much they can save.

The other question is if you use the money from the Government

for each turbine and give that to each household to save money,

I'm sure we could save much more energy using the money correctly,

instead of putting it in the pocket of big business. That's where this is going.

-Yes?

-I wouldn't like to leave it to the next generation,

seeing these turbines, concrete, the size of Olympic swimming pools,

clearing the turbine and the concrete is left there.

-Yes, come back in?

-It's money that is driving this.

These companies can make a lot of money out of this.

The companies that organise these things,

they're not doing it for themselves,

they're not doing it to be green, they're making money out of it.

What do you make of that woman's point?

We have to take responsibility, we have to produce electricity.

-Use less.

-It's a worldwide debate. It's a worldwide problem.

We can't solve it by building turbines in rural areas.

But everyone needs to make a contribution.

But the contribution is too small. The world's governments need to make a contribution

and take the power out of the hands of these fuel companies.

There was a hand up here. Right in the front.

From what I've read, how effective are these wind turbines?

In Wales, we have plenty of water and we're not using water.

All of these towns used the water years ago.

If you ask for something different,

I'd say water is far more effective than wind.

-But we don't use water.

-I'll come back to the audience shortly.

Elinor, are you going to speak on behalf of the countryside council?

As a body, we do quite a lot of work in this field.

We believe that we must deal with this strategically

because all methods of creating energy affect the environment

and people and society.

But strategically, we believe we need to look

at a number of things, looking at ways of controlling

the demand for energy, improving effectiveness,

developing different technology for renewable energy and reducing pollution.

But as far as this question specifically, is it fair that...?

The wording is strong. A small area like this is overrun.

With the plan announced by the Government for transforming

the economy of Wales and making it a carbon neutral economy,

there is no escaping the development of such technology, but I would add

to what has been said already, that we must also look at saving energy.

As a body, we accept...

But in principle, you do not oppose turbines on the hills of Montgomery?

Our role as a body is to look at the effect

of any development on the natural environment.

That is our role is to look at the effect of these developments

and try and ensure that they have as little effect as possible.

There are things to consider with the development of wind farms.

It's a matter of ensuring that the quality of the plans put forward

are as sensitive as possible to the environment.

Right. Thank you. Dafydd Iwan, where do Plaid Cymru stand on this?

I think that all of us in this room agree about the need

to produce renewable energy.

We can't argue with the fact that the threat of climate change is a serious matter.

But I disagree and I know that Gwyn is worried about the environment

and nature, but this argument that it is such a big problem that we cannot have an effect...

Does switching off a light help save the planet?

Yes, as long as we all do it.

I agree that the problem regarding this question is technical note

that says turbines only need to be built in certain areas.

That's what causes the problem. Too many turbines in one area.

Now, we need to look at that technical note.

-Isn't it something that should be devolved?

-Well, of course it needs to be devolved.

-Carwyn Jones believes that.

-Glyn Davies, devolving it?

-Shouldn't these decisions be made in Cardiff?

-I had some sympathy, but after hearing Carwyn Jones

and seeing Tan 8, after hearing Carwyn Jones' policy,

I don't want to give the Assembly more power on this matter.

-The problem is nuclear power stations...

-But isn't the Assembly more likely to reflect

the opinions of the people of Montgomery than Westminster?

It's not Westminster. You have a body of commissioners deciding on large energy plans.

That's the danger. We need planning decisions being made locally.

But the thing is there is opposition.

Whatever our views on climate change,

there is opposition to biomass, hydro energy.

I agree that water is our main source of energy in Wales.

People say that turbines on the Llandudno coast would affect tourism. It doesn't.

-So it won't affect tourism in Montgomery.

-No. Don't exaggerate when making your argument.

You have a point regarding Tan 8. It needs to be looked at. The pylons, the cables should go underground.

If that is too expensive, it needs looking at.

-We've had pylons in Snowdonia for decades.

-Exactly.

In Dinorwig, we insisted that the cables were put underground.

If that makes this plan too expensive, then oppose it.

-Let's get Rhys's views.

-I have an open mind on this.

I'm willing to be persuaded.

Abermule was mentioned, he said it won't just be around Abermule,

these wind turbines will be right in the middle of Abermule.

I was listening and thinking, "Gosh, yes."

But what Dafydd has been saying - in the sea, off the coast of Llandudno.

People oppose it because of the coastal views.

Well, you can't win.

People come to Llandudno to see them!

-So, briefly, a few opinions from the audience. Aled Davies?

-It is so unfair.

These wind turbines, it takes money out of the pockets

of pensioners here tonight and gives it to these big firms.

And the Government in Cardiff wrote Tan 8,

with advice from the CCW.

That is what has caused us to have all these turbines in Mid Wales.

Right. You're making a few contributions tonight.

This also affects the county of Shrewsbury.

Were they consulted regarding this? I'd like to know.

Well, I don't have the answer to that question.

-I don't know if Glyn Davies knows.

-One important principle for me

is that all renewable energy schemes should benefit the local community.

The local community should benefit

and that is the principle to which Plaid Cymru adheres.

Communities should aim to be self sustainable.

And these plans should be for smaller turbines,

benefiting the local community.

It's fine to protest against them, but don't exaggerate.

Don't compare it to Tryweryn.

That comparison is not true. To begin with, it is not permanent.

You're not losing land for ever. You're not losing communities.

Local people don't want this. The audience doesn't want to see it.

But the Government is saying, "You're having it!"

That is what happened at Tryweryn and that's what is happening here.

That is the reason these people will remember

this in future in the same way that they remember Tryweryn.

The Governments in Cardiff and in Westminster need to reconsider.

But the important thing as regards Tryweryn was that politicians were against it.

What we want is for decisions to be made here and that we listen to the voice of the people.

Glyn didn't want that either. You didn't want the decision to be made in Cardiff.

Glyn wants unification.

The reason we're concentrating on Mid Wales

is Carwyn Jones' policy,

it's the policy of the Labour Government in the Assembly.

I don't want to see it devolved further on that basis.

-One more voice here.

-I'm just worried that a lot of people in Cardiff are making

important decisions that affect us in Mid Wales.

They don't travel any further north than Brecon.

They don't know our opinions here.

Well, you've had an opportunity to voice them this evening.

You've been down there protesting too. But I think we're going to end that debate there.

We have to move on, or we won't discuss anything else tonight.

Let's go to our third question. It's from Dilys Williams. Where are you? Right in front of me.

S4C has introduced a number of new programmes over recent weeks.

Isn't there a danger that a programme like Heno

could lead to viewers being lost?

There we are. No-one can accuse us of not discussing our own programmes.

S4C have introduced a number of new programmes over recent weeks.

Isn't there a danger that a programme like Heno could lead to viewers being lost?

How many of you have seen Heno during the past fortnight?

Hands up, come on. Yes? Around half of you, maybe?

So what do you think? Your hand was up.

Let's get the microphone over to you. What do you think?

Well, I think the programme they had before was more acceptable.

What's wrong with this one?

The structure is... Well, it's all over the place.

Dilys, you asked the question. What do you think?

Well, from what I've seen,

I feel there is too much in the studio,

talking across each other,

and no-one really understanding anything.

I'm voicing the opinion of older people. I've been speaking to them.

-What is that opinion?

-Not happy at all. They preferred Wedi 7.

Right. Behind, what do you make of the changes?

-I've never seen Heno.

-Well, there we are.

That's an answer. Nothing more to say. Let's turn to the panel. Elinor?

-Have you seen the programme?

-I've seen it a couple of times.

From what I've heard people saying over the past few days,

it sounds like they have lost viewers already.

As far as the changes, I'm not sure if the changes are based on research

into what audiences want and what audiences they want to develop.

-I'm not sure if...

-Maybe they're looking for a new audience.

Maybe, but are those audiences going to tune in?

Are they using other media?

I think on the whole, there have been some improvements.

In think the increase in the number of hours of broadcasting

for young children, Cyw, is to be welcomed.

But I'm disappointed a programme like Wedi 3 has changed.

I think that programme provided a service for people in their homes.

There are other things to be considered,

apart from viewing figures.

I think especially for older people, as we look at our communities,

where it is becoming more expensive to travel,

there are fewer opportunities for people to socialise,

the TV provides important company and brings people together.

Aren't we a little conservative as an audience? We don't like change.

We need to give it a chance to settle.

Yes, of course we need change. And we need to experiment.

But I was watching a few weeks ago and it was an English programme

and they were looking at Gwasg Gee and the work being done there.

It was so interesting.

And then last night, I was watching Heno

and someone was talking about a newspaper story about someone

earning £25,000 to look at sex toys and Katherine Jenkins' boyfriend.

What a difference. And we have so much happening in Wales.

There is a difference between light programming

and unimportant and empty programming.

Is there a danger we are snobbish? Don't answer that.

-We'll be here all night! Rhys Williams?

-Well, I agree with Elinor.

20 years ago, people would say we don't need TV in the afternoon.

And now for the extremely good reasons mentioned by Elinor,

people isolated in their homes,

I think Wedi 3 provided an important social service.

Yes. Dafydd Iwan? The channel was losing viewers.

-Something needed to be done.

-We're talking about money.

I disagreed with some of Glyn's friends. Not Glyn, as it happens.

They argued S4C's budget needed to be cut, in the same way as any other government department.

S4C is not a government department.

It's the only Welsh-medium TV service.

It was being run on a comparatively small budget.

-Compare the budget of S4C with the Doctor Who.

-It doesn't sound small.

-To the layman, £100 million doesn't sound small.

-No, but to people producing programmes,

the Welsh programmes are produced on a small budget.

They've got rid of, and this is a mistake, Wedi 3 and Wedi 7.

They had proved to be popular with the viewers.

They've been forced to replace them with cheaper programmes.

They've lost the ability to go out into the communities

because it costs money. They fill the studio with people who are treating us, maybe, as stupid.

-This is a danger in Welsh programming.

-That's nasty.

There is a danger on Welsh TV and radio of degrading the audience.

Sometimes I switch from Radio Cymru to Radio Wales,

and Radio Wales treats its audience with respect.

It's as if we believe that the only way to be popular in Welsh

is to be superficial and flippant or to discuss sex.

Yes, you're welcome to applaud.

-People want substance. That is not being a snob.

-You need standards.

Yes. And try not to poke fun at everything.

There is a place for comedy

and there is a place for information.

But basically, you blame Glyn Davies' government for cutting the S4C budget.

I blame the cuts because S4C is refusing to cut its hours,

so it is producing more with less.

Glyn, defend your government. The programmes are worse because they have less money.

I don't think that is the reason for the changes.

They have modernised. They have changed things.

I think the money that goes to S4C is more than...

A lot of people were complaining after the new coalition government

came in and we had to make cuts. And now people are saying that...

I have spoken to a lot of people

and they say that £100 million was going every year and that is fine.

No problem at all. But some people want to make a political point.

We are doing a lot of work at Westminster, me and Guto Bebb and Alun Cairns,

we were working hard with the government. And I got a result in the end.

-People in Wales were phoning me and saying it's a good settlement.

-You have support for the settlement.

Yes, a lot of support. And no-one was complaining after we got that settlement.

Some views from the audience? Gwenllian, your hand was up?

The new format of Heno is maddening,

but what is even more maddening is hearing a Westminster Government

representative refusing to accept responsibility for the cuts to S4C.

But he has done his best to ensure that the cuts were not as severe as expected, he claims.

There is a strong economic argument.

Look at what is happening in rural areas, such as Caernarfon,

where cuts have led to job losses. There are linguistic considerations

and also strong economic considerations.

-One more voice.

-I'm not sure about Heno. I haven't seen it.

But I think they've extended Cyw's hours.

I have children at school.

I know maybe they shouldn't be watching TV after coming home,

they should be playing football or something, but they like to switch on the TV.

I try to urge them to watch Welsh things.

I come in and they're watching CBBC. I ask them what's on S4C.

But it's Cyw now. They're too old for that.

So children of that age are missing out.

It's hard to please everyone. That is the problem.

-Can I say...?

-No, sorry, Dafydd. I have to please the managers and go to the break.

Join us in a couple of minutes.

Welcome back to the final part of the programme.

You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Welshpool.

Let's move on to the next question. Robin, your question.

Business Minister Edwina Hart claims that Wales has lost its brand.

Isn't this the fault of the Welsh Government

and isn't it time we restored the WDA?

Yes, the WDA. Business Minister Edwina Hart claims Wales has lost its brand.

Isn't this the fault of the Welsh Government? And isn't it time we restored the WDA? Glyn Davies?

I don't think we could have the WDA returning.

I was a member of the WDA. I know it did a lot of work.

But I also know that we had to change.

After the Assembly was established,

we had to change the way the WDA worked.

The problem was that the First Minister at the time,

Rhodri Morgan, didn't speak to anyone about scrapping it and deciding what would replace it.

That is the problem. It has not been replaced by anything effective.

Isn't that what has happened? Isn't that why we have lost this "brand"?

Today, a lot of people tell me that the WDA name is still strong.

There's a possibility, I'm sure, that the name can be kept,

-but I don't think it could really return.

-It's too late?

-It's too late to do that.

Rhys Williams, your government's fault.

I don't think that losing the brand is the problem.

-Creating a brand in the first place, that's the problem.

-We don't have a brand?

-I don't think so.

-That's bad.

-We've been talking tonight about Plaid Cymru and Heno,

about an ideal.

What is the ideal? The Wales brand is extremely foggy.

What is the Wales brand? Is it something from the north?

Or the south? I'm not sure.

Or are all these things included?

Edwina Hart is the best placed minister

to be asking these questions.

So was the bonfire of the Quangos a mistake?

No. I think people would have said, "That is typical of Wales.

"We've left things in the same place. We haven't experimented.

-"We haven't changed."

-But it obviously hasn't worked. Dafydd Iwan?

What hasn't worked is giving a specific job like this to civil servants.

Civil servants don't know about what business needs.

As a company, we were in Cannes this month, I wasn't there, in January.

We have to be there every year.

That is the biggest music trade fair in the world.

Small and large countries had stalls there, national stalls,

promoting businesses, but Wales didn't have a stall.

You can't brand Welsh produce without going there.

-But isn't the brand foggy?

-Well, no. that is a definite example.

-But when was this happening?

-This year.

-Oh, this year.

-We were there.

I'll tell you another thing about this Government's ideology. They said, "We'll help you go there,

"your company, we'll pay half the costs of the hotel and the flights,

"but you have to go through an English agency."

We said, "We'll go through a Caernarfon agency."

We had a better hotel and flights for less than half the cost.

-They don't think about the practicalities.

-Let's hear from Elinor.

-Just one more thing.

-Briefly.

One of the first economic campaigns I remember from Plaid Cymru

was campaigning for a development agency for Wales.

-So you're longing for those days?

-No. It has a job to do.

-Elinor?

-As some of you will know,

we're responsible for coordinating the development of a coastal path.

It opens in May. One thing that became clear in doing this work was that marketing

the brand is something that needs attention and resources.

It's not something you can do alongside other jobs.

I'd say that is something important to remember, the need

for investment and attention being given to the matter of branding.

We don't market ourselves well enough, despite all these years of trying to do so?

Yes. Or not concentrating on doing it properly. It's interesting.

This news came in the context of the economic performance of West Wales and the Valleys.

Edwina Hart mentioned attracting investment in tourism.

It's interesting that the government department that deals with tourism only markets outside of Wales.

In attracting investment, we need to do more, increasing skills

-and promoting local companies.

-I must interrupt.

I'm sorry, panel, audience, but that is the end of the programme.

Thank you for your contributions.

Next week, we end our series in Pwllheli. I hope you will join us.

But from Welshpool, good night.