Pwllheli Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel tonight in Pwllheli,

the lecturer, musician and columnist, Rhys Mwyn.

The journalist, Bethan Jones Parry.

Plaid Cymru Assembly Member, Alun Ffred Jones.

And the Mayor of Pwllheli, Mike Parry.

-Please give them a warm welcome.

-APPLAUSE

Good evening, and welcome to the programme.

It's good to have your company once again.

This is the last in the series of Pawb a'i Farn.

The journey is over. From Amlwch to Swansea,

thank you to everyone who has contributed to the series.

And in an age of change, I'm glad to say Pawb a'i Farn

will definitely return next winter.

But tonight, we are in Pwllheli.

And as you'd expect, local people are ready to have their say tonight

at Dwyfor Leisure Centre.

I hope we have an hour of interesting discussion.

As usual, you can get in touch with us this evening.

Our contact details are on the screen.

Please get in touch if you want Pawb a'i Farn to visit your home town.

That's more than enough from me.

Let's get our first question from Elfed Wyn Morgan.

David Cameron said yesterday's budget

was a good one for the economy

and fair for everyone in Britain.

What does the panel think?

Thank you for the first question of the evening.

David Cameron said yesterday's Budget

was a good one for the economy

and fair for everyone in Britain.

What is the panel's opinion?

Let's start with the professional politician on the panel,

Alun Ffred Jones.

I think it was very unfair. I think it's almost immoral.

He is taking £3 billion from pensioners

who have worked to get a second pension,

not the poorest ones.

He has taken £3 billion from them

and he will give that money to people who earn more than £150,000.

I don't think that is reasonable or fair,

particularly in the current economic climate.

I have also got to criticise George Osborne,

because he has gone against everything he said he would do.

He said he wanted to do two things. Get rid of the massive debt

created by Labour,

and the second was to promote economic growth.

But he has failed in both matters.

-The debt is still very high.

-Failed so far, maybe.

After two years, I think it is fair to ask if the measures are working.

The debt is coming down slowly,

but we are still borrowing a lot more than we should.

He also said there would be an increase

from 2.5% to 3% this year,

-but it is less than 1% this year.

-But there is an increase.

There is an increase.

There's an increase of just under 1%.

He said it would be 2.5% - 3%.

His policies are failing at the moment,

and I don't think he can avoid that.

There are also other issues relating to the Budget.

I would draw attention to two things.

He is still looking for £10 billion in benefits.

Those of us who receive benefits would face further cuts.

And the biggest risk to Wales is regional pay.

-That is the greatest threat.

-I might return to that later.

Bethan, is this Budget unfair, as Alun Ffred suggests?

Yes, I think it has been quite an unfair Budget.

But what surprises me most is the wider context,

and the more general messages that are being put across.

It is not a fair Budget

because I don't feel we're being treated fairly.

Having listened to what he decided to do for pensioners,

it reminded me of Tony Blair.

He said it was like dealing with Rottweilers on speed.

It is a very dangerous political move.

That surprises me.

But shouldn't they make a contribution to the economic crisis?

A tremendous amount of people have been careful over the years.

They have been looking forward to spending this time,

enjoying their savings.

You can't tell me that the amount they're getting is fair.

But they're not going to lose that much.

There is going to be an increase in the pension.

And we must remember that people are living a lot longer.

There's a group of pensioners,

especially those with a second pension, who will be at a loss.

What's worse is that it's one thing to ask for a contribution from them,

but another to give it to people who earn £150,000 a year.

-They keep penalising the same people.

-What do you think, Mike Parry?

I am approaching retirement age.

But I am definitely part of the baby boom generation.

We will suffer in the years to come.

So, has this angered you?

I think they will bring in £1.2 billion from us

within the next five years.

It doesn't matter how you dress that up.

It makes you think.

Bethan mentioned savings and so on.

I visited a residential home in Anglesey last week.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, that is where many of us end up.

The owner said something interesting.

She said, "Is there any point saving our money?

"Everyone gets the same treatment."

Two beds, one hasn't done anything,

the other has worked throughout their life,

and the government wants to take everything away from you.

That's the way it works, unfortunately.

Are you saying it's better to spend it?

Well, you're no worse off.

What about good for the economy and fair on everyone?

They are talking about regional pay.

The average in Wales is around £2,000 less per year

than the UK average.

This would make things worse.

-Rhys Mwyn?

-If there's anything good in this,

if they do anger the pensioners,

they might be sensible enough next time not to vote for the Tories.

I feel that whatever the Tories do, we have to oppose them.

I remember Margaret Thatcher.

It is a fair budget if you are a millionaire.

If you earn over £150,000...

What about all those people who won't have to pay income tax?

The threshold will be around £9,000.

Those who earn £150,000 a year

and don't pay 50 pence in the pound,

they could be around £40,000 better off.

That's more than our annual salary.

George Osbourne said it wasn't working as a tax.

If that's the case, it's because people are cheating the system.

That's how they end up not paying.

That is a strong word. It can also be illegal.

Most of us don't have a choice. You pay tax and that is it.

If you don't pay, you're in trouble.

These people can employ very clever solicitors and lawyers

and avoid paying it.

He claims only £100 million is coming in.

But there are 300,000 families who will benefit from the change.

And that is the message in each programme I've listened to today.

The big question is, what is going to happen now?

The wealthiest people will be able to invest their money

in ways to protect their finances.

Something people at the bottom of the list are unable to do.

-Rhys, I interrupted you.

-There is another point.

Wages have been frozen in the public sector.

It is one thing to freeze wages,

but the cost of living is going up all the time.

This is the first time people...

Yes, we are being paid a wage,

but for the first time, we are finding it difficult.

They said we are all in this together,

but now they have shown their true colours.

I'm not surprised by that.

In regards to the local element,

if they want to introduce regional pay,

they should look at something like the cost of fuel in a regional way.

People in rural Wales have no choice but to use a lot of fuel.

The fact he has chosen not to do anything about the price of fuel

and not even attempting to examine the tax from that,

once again shows his priorities.

We all know that people who live in rural areas have to have a car.

We'll come back to some of those points. Elfed, what do you think?

I work in the public sector.

I also have to travel a long way to work every day.

How long does that take you?

At least three quarters of an hour.

Fuel is very expensive.

They have also frozen public sector wages.

I can see that I'll have to get up at 6am and not finish until 6pm.

It's quite a day.

You must see that as being very unfair. Your hand is in the air.

As a student, there are no jobs out there.

When you come to the end of your degree,

you have got to ask yourself what you're going to do.

You either have to stay in education

and look for bursaries

rather than going for the job you want.

And with the welfare reform,

that is going to have a significant effect.

Everyone seems to be suffering, apart from the wealthiest people.

Yes. Gareth Jones.

Regarding the 50p tax rate,

it is going to come down to 45p.

I think they will pay it on even less in the future.

If they earn £150, they will have to pay on £140 by a year April.

They will get even more money.

Right. So, do you think it's a fair Budget?

-You're not complaining?

-No, I'm not complaining.

Right. Where else did I see a hand in the air?

Can I come back to you about the regional pay?

With the regional pay, they are talking about closing the gap

between the public and private sector.

This is one way of doing it, isn't it?

They want to make the private sector more attractive.

What do the business people in the audience think?

More people working in the private sector.

So, the plan is to cut wages in the private sector

as well as in the public sector?

If the public sector did not set some kind of mark,

wages in the private sector would be even lower.

That's the truth of the matter.

I don't think this Budget is even close to being fair.

It will affect communities even further.

I think we have got to oppose this Budget.

Mike Parry.

In the past, they used London weighting.

I did an apprenticeship many years ago

and I received the London weighting

because I was employed directly from London.

-Even though you lived and worked in North Wales.

-Yes.

-It was slightly odd.

-I think it sounds very odd.

-That sounds like a very good system.

-It was for me.

Can you see his point? He needs to strengthen the private sector.

The sector that is creating jobs.

But you don't do that by reducing wages.

You do that by providing more jobs and a wider variety of jobs.

Especially in areas of Wales...

If salaries aren't particularly high,

maybe people would be willing to try.

I don't think you believe your own argument.

I think it's nonsense.

-I just ask the questions.

-I know.

But lowering the wages in the public sector won't do any good.

One thing I think they should do

is reduce...I'm talking about politicians now

in Westminster and the Assembly.

Because if they were only paid £20,000 a year,

there would be a queue from here to South Beach

with people still wanting to do the job for that amount of money.

Lower wages. Who would that attract?

For some people not too far away from me,

they are paid way too much money.

I didn't expect us to go down that path.

Yes? What about you?

Maybe I am cynical in thinking such a thing,

but I think rural Wales, especially this area,

is under siege from London.

We have two Communities First programmes coming to an end here.

In the future, the Assembly intends to have these programmes

in towns and cities.

That will have a substantial effect on this area.

It's just another blow.

Do you support those programmes?

They have been doing great work over the past 10 years.

I am sure many of us would agree with that.

That's a very good point.

It's a huge mistake to think that cutting public sector wages

in an area such as this will be fair, using that word again,

because there aren't as many opportunities to spend.

The truth is, living in areas such as this can be so expensive

when you consider how much money comes in and how much is spent.

Food, fuel, transport, house prices is so much more expensive.

Is there anything to praise in this budget?

-Not by me.

-Bethan?

-No, not really.

There's a cut in corporation tax.

That must be an advantage for businesses.

I don't doubt that.

But I think they should have done something with NIC too,

that would have helped.

Raising the income tax threshold was a good idea,

if you want me to praise anything.

Great, closing on a positive note. Thank you very much.

We'll have a short break

but join us in Pwllheli in about two minutes after the adverts.

Welcome back. We're in Pwllheli for the last programme

in this series of Pawb a'i Farn.

Let's move on to our second question which is asked by Peter Reid

in the front row. What's your question?

Are the health boards too big and losing sight of local needs?

Why doesn't the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board realise that

local hospitals such as Bryn Beryl and Blaenau are essential

in rural areas such as this?

It's a topic that annoys many people regularly.

Are the health boards too big and losing sight of local needs?

Why doesn't Betsi Cadwaladr realise that Bryn Beryl Hospital

is essential in a rural area?

Mike, I know you've been central in the campaign to save this hospital.

I've been fortunate as there is a team of us.

It's an easy matter

because we didn't have to do much to carry people with us.

We had 750 people turning out at Ysgol Glan y Mor.

But there's no doubt about it, Betsi Cadwaladr is too big.

They joined with another board with debts of £18 million.

I think we're paying for that today.

But I have been in many meetings and so on,

and I was very disappointed with the responses

we got form the chief officers in the public meeting.

-What was the problem?

-They didn't know anything about Bryn Beryl.

They didn't know anything about the internal plans,

that was obvious by the decision they made.

It is disappointing that they didn't know

anything about the hospital or the area.

The staff would hear on the radio in the morning of a ward closure.

What kind of a...?

-Are people's expectations in this part of the North West too high?

-No.

You can't have every medical service on your doorstep.

-They want to centralise things.

-Due to cost and it's impractical?

I don't want to criticise any other hospital

but we have an X ray in Caernarfon,

and then 10 minutes down the road in Bangor.

The unit in Pwllheli only opens for a day and a half.

Nearly every other site opens for four days of four half day a week.

We are a poor relation compared with others.

-Did they listen to you?

-Yes.

-They are listening to you?

They were shocked.

By the end of the two hours the three on stage had wilted,

physically and mentally.

Peter, you asked the question.

What are your fears?

That they forget about us on this side.

It's exactly what they call a postcode lottery.

Why do we pay money out of our wages in order to have a health service

and someone down the road can have better services?

It's not fair at all.

You know, it's an hour from Aberdaron to Bryn Beryl.

It's another hour from Bryn Beryl to Bangor.

It's a two hour journey and it isn't fair at all

to expect people and patients from this area...

Do you expect Ysbyty Gwynedd to be on your doorstep?

Is that what you'd like?

No. But why should we have to travel two hours?

Why should someone from Aberdaron have to travel two hours

-to get to hospital?

-Fine. Any more audience response? Yes, you.

Yes, I was part of the campaign about Bryn Beryl.

It's terrible to think that people say they're professional

but when you show them what communities are like

in the Lleyn Peninsula and you have to travel so far.

The older people, the most vulnerable people, are always hit.

I was so pleased to see the amount of people who turned out

in Pwllheli to campaign to keep Bryn Beryl open.

In the back. Is it Meryl?

The truth is, they closed these beds in Bryn Beryl

in order to solve Ysbyty Gwynedd's problems.

-In order to move staff to Ysbyty Gwynedd?

-Yes.

What they haven't realised is,

they've chosen the only community hospital that can take

the pressure off Ysbyty Gwynedd.

Bryn Beryl staff have received further education

and are specialised in many areas.

They can ease the pressure in Ysbyty Gwynedd.

Shouldn't they move staff into Ysbyty Gwynedd to keep it going?

No, they shouldn't.

The service given by Ysbyty Gwynedd and a community hospital

is different.

Community hospital staff are experienced at their hospital

but not in Ysbyty Gwynedd just as staff at Ysbyty Gwynedd

couldn't work in Bryn Beryl.

I feel people in the Lleyn Peninsula need to be treated

like the animals are treated here.

If I want a vet I can see one in 20 minutes

and the treat the animals there and then.

Why can't people be treated in the same way?

Isn't it bad luck that you happen to live in the Lleyn Peninsula?

It happens that the services are an hour away.

They're stopping our services.

We don't have any toilets, any post offices,

there isn't anything in Llanbedrog any more.

Someone has to stand up and say, enough is enough.

There you go, you've said it tonight. Yes, the younger generation.

We have to be realistic.

There have been complaints about the services in Bryn Beryl.

-There were complaints?

-Yes.

But now there's a threat to close it,

everyone's supporting Bryn Beryl.

-You have to look at both sides.

-You say there are complaints.

I can't agree with that because in 2009

Bryn Beryl was named as the best hospital within the Trust,

-It's not easy to be given that award.

-Bethan.

Our family experienced the need for care that was not available locally

as well as local care. Both happened at the same time.

I don't think people are unrealistic that they want

everything on the doorstep. That's impossible.

But saying that I can assure you

that the savings we made emotionally and financially of having one

patient in Bryn Beryl while we took the other to Bristol regularly,

it was a blessing, there's no other way to describe it.

A week last Sunday I had a terrible cold

and thank goodness I only had to go to Bryn Beryl and not to Bangor.

What concerns me is that, I think people are willing accept

you can't have everything in an area like this,

not that we're forgotten, but we're disregarded.

What angers me about Bryn Beryl is that the situation has arisen

so quickly as if the people were caught unawares.

The Board were shocked with the response...

There hadn't been enough consultation.

It's obvious there wasn't or they wouldn't have thought this

was a good idea in a crisis.

It wasn't an accident that they timed this

between Christmas and the New Year.

They thought that the people nor Lleyn Peninsula wouldn't respond.

It was the biggest mistake they made.

You're Plaid Cymru's spokesman on the economy, you understand money.

Are you going to tell the audience that it's unreasonable

to expect a specialist service on the doorstep?

I don't think people expect everything to be nearby.

With regards to Bryn Beryl and the distance and services,

I think it's important the Board keeps a presence in the area.

They have to offer services for purpose

so that you make full use of the building.

It has to be of a high standard. Otherwise, it's good for nothing.

-If I can just mention another argument...

-Of course.

...not on Bryn Beryl specifically.

We have to face a few things.

We have a population that is growing older

and that will put more pressure on the NHS.

We have drugs on the market which are very expensive

and everybody wants them in an emergency.

At the same time, the budget stays the same or gets smaller.

I fear we have to face changes.

-I'm not talking about Bryn Beryl.

-You wouldn't accept that change?

There are changes on the horizon

and the health boards have postponed their decisions until after May.

I think something is happening in May!

I think they're deliberately waiting until after that.

I haven't heard anything.

There's a second part to this question.

Rhys Mwyn, are the health boards now too big

and they don't understand local need?

To answer the question, I think they're out of touch.

It's nothing to do with the size but they're out of touch.

Someone had done an experiment of travelling to Ysbyty Gwynedd

on public transport and it had taken four hours.

If people don't understand local need problems are going to arise.

I think something else will happen when we're faced

with all these cuts, and it doesn't justify what's going on here,

but more and more working people are going to come under pressure

as a result of these cuts and then there's pressure on everyone.

Nobody wants that to happen

and I was pleased that people here had protested.

Before we go on,

I have been preparing carefully for this programme.

I have had a statement by the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board.

"Bryn Beryl Hospital remains part of our plans to provide

"health services in the Dwyfor area.

"We will be cooperating to consider the best way for the hospital

"to serve the local people in future.

"There aren't any plans to close the hospital."

That's quite positive. Don't you think so?

Do you believe the statement? There's a second part.

You go first.

There's another ward in Bryn Beryl, Hafan Ward,

that's been closed for about a year and a half, two years.

They said, it's in the Daily Post newspaper, "We will reopen".

We are still waiting.

"The health board has confirmed its intention to reopen

"the beds during April as the staffing difficulties...",

and they have been a problem due to illness,

hundreds of staff members have been ill,

"..lightened and specific patients have been designated.

"We have confirmed the hospital's minor injuries unit will

"return to normal hours during Easter

"in order to cope with increases expected at that time of year."

Does that answer satisfy you?

It sounds right.

We can only hope that they will stick to their word this time.

Are you making a mountain out of a molehill?

They have listened and this is their decision.

Not only have they done all this, there's another side to it.

The way they've treated the hospital staff in disgraceful.

There have been days

when some didn't know where they were working the following day.

You can't treat people like this,

telling them they're going to Bangor tomorrow.

That's not the way to treat people.

They've forgotten the fact staff are the foundation of their hospitals.

As a local councillor I sit on the North Wales Local Health Board

which is one level beneath Betsi Cadwaladr Board.

When this happened it was called a winter crisis.

They said they had to have a plan during winter.

I'm sorry to tell you that winter happens every year.

They closed Hafan two years ago and said it was a temporary measure.

There were six beds there that did excellent work.

On top of that they have said that people from outside the county,

outside the area, are coming in. If they'd looked at the paperwork,

Llanaelhaearn has a different post code and it's three miles away.

The Cricieth post code is different and that's four miles down the road.

On paper they had counted the six empty beds

and said the figures were low. It's a sham from the start.

Many thanks. Anyone else?

I've been unfortunate enough to have to have an operation

and had to wait four months for it.

The problems I heard about when I was on a ward with older people

were people who wanted to go home but couldn't

because they didn't have the resources in order to do that.

People were asking to go to Bryn Beryl to be close to home

but weren't allowed.

Unless things are changed with this bed-blocking thing,

it's going to get worse. Bryn Beryl's good for that.

I am a GP in a practise and I work out-of-hours in Bryn Beryl.

I agree with Bethan, we saw a local family recently

and we were lucky to get the patient admitted into Bryn Beryl.

But we have to understand we can't have all the services needed

in one local, small hospital.

I work in Eryri and they have an x-ray machine available every day

and it's a God send, and you forget the things that are needed

in Bryn Beryl.

But you accept, as Alun Ffred said, it's a challenging time.

It is and we need to prioritise and use the special unit.

David Cameron said yesterday they're thinking of privatising the NHS

and we have to take that into consideration.

The statement says the place won't close, Mike Parry.

I had a meeting with the chairman which took two months.

It would have been quicker to visit the Pope.

What became apparent in that meeting was,

the Board itself didn't make the decision,

but some of the people who are on...

For me, what's scared me,

people on such high salaries make such bad decisions.

If they were in the private sector they'd be gone.

Many thanks for your contributions. It's time for another break.

We'll be back discussing badgers.

Welcome back to Pawb a'i Farn.

We've reached the last part of the programme.

It's the final programme of the series. We're in Pwllheli.

Let's have the next question asked by Morgan Jones Parry.

Your question, please.

This week, the Welsh government

decided to vaccinate badgers in order to control bovine TB.

What do the panel think

about the unbelievable suffering the badgers will face,

and will this make the disease

more likely to spread across the country?

Thank you very much.

This week, the Welsh government

decided to vaccinate badgers in order to control bovine TB,

but will this make the disease

more likely to spread across Wales?

Rhys Mwyn, where do you stand on this?

A very good question. On my way here this evening,

I thought about how this would be the first time

that Pawb a'i Farn would pose the same question.

I think it was asked about six years ago.

The question is, why are we still here,

at least six years on, asking the same question?

This stems from John Griffiths' announcement at the Senedd.

It's obviously a very complicated matter.

What we need is a solution to the problem.

I think it's important to have a sensible discussion,

but not an emotional one.

Like many people, I saw on the news

about the ladies from Pembrokeshire who lost their livelihood.

Of course, I sympathise with them.

But we have to find a way to move forward.

And try to understand all the research that has been undertaken,

all the experiments that have been done,

to find out exactly how the disease is spread,

the effects of a badger cull.

It's extremely complicated.

And I assume that's why it's taken the Assembly

so long to reach a decision.

Is there new scientific reasoning behind this?

No. It's a political decision.

There isn't any new evidence.

There's no definite evidence one way or the other.

I remember eight years ago,

Carwyn Jones, who was then the Rural Affairs minister,

said he was determined to get rid of TB

because it was beginning to become very costly for the government.

But within the next six months, everything settled down.

Then Elin Jones came up with the proposal

which meant farmers had to play their part

by introducing restrictions on the movement of cattle.

And to some extent, that has been effective.

They have kept one part of the bargain.

The other part was to trial a badger cull in one area

to see if that would control the disease.

No-one knows if it would work or not,

but the government have failed to press forward with that proposal.

And I fear the disease will spread again.

But is vaccination an acceptable proposal?

No. Because vaccination doesn't do anything.

It doesn't do anything for the animals who are already suffering.

It doesn't help them.

We need to be clear about how to solve the problem,

rather than emotional debates.

There is one risk, if you only cull a certain amount,

the badgers could move elsewhere

and make things worse.

Culling could cut the population by around 50%,

so that would not be a concrete answer.

So the question is, do we need a combination of both options?

That's my concern, as well.

My sympathies go out to the farmers who face this real risk,

but my concern is that a badger cull

is the easy answer in the short term.

Many of us vaccinate our children.

-Before they become infected.

-Yes.

But I'm concerned that this is a short-term answer

and a political answer, possibly.

It's interesting. We shoot...

What am I trying to say?

Foxes.

No. We shoot deer because they eat young trees.

And we also shoot grey squirrels.

That's the word I was looking for. Squirrels.

Because they're taking over the red squirrels.

I haven't heard anyone complaining about shooting them.

We also shoot cattle in the yard

in front of the families who have raised them.

But if you talk about culling badgers,

for some reason, everyone gets emotional.

The big question is, what can we do that will be effective?

The big question is,

how is the disease transferred in the first place?

What is the effect of culling and vaccinating?

Does culling improve or worsen the situation?

What you can't do is emotionally shoot your way out of a problem.

No-one's talking about an emotional cull.

There's been endless debates in this area.

Nothing has worked so far.

But culling a percentage of badgers

would at least be an interesting experiment.

And if it didn't work, you'd stop it.

This experiment has already taken place.

They should undertake a trial in Pembrokeshire.

Eight years ago, I was at a debate in the Assembly.

I went down to listen to another debate

and the next item was on badgers.

I think they knew less then than they do today, to tell you the truth.

Having said that, they have withdrawn it now.

I watched the debate at the Assembly the other evening.

The government are withdrawing.

Yes. But Elin argued in favour of it.

They have withdrawn the proposal without reason.

I will come back to you in a while. Let's hear from the audience.

Morgan?

Rhys said that vaccination is the answer,

but they have proved that doesn't work.

When our ancestors controlled the badgers in their own way,

there wasn't any TB in the area.

What did they do differently?

The farmers, before the badger was protected....

And it is a dirty animal in its nature.

Although people think it's a nice, cuddly animal.

It can be a very dirty animal.

Do you think it's cuddly, Rhys?

I didn't say vaccination is the answer

because I don't understand it.

It's taken the Assembly many years,

and they still haven't solved this matter. I can't solve it.

Bethan?

There's an vaccination trial

which is taking place in Cheshire at the moment.

And if I've properly understood it,

we are a few years into a five-year programme.

There have been experiments in England.

They've been experimenting with a cull in Ireland.

And they've had results, along with rules on the movement of animals.

What is disappearing are hedgehogs.

Who is eating the hedgehogs?

-What about...?

-Can I say one thing, please?

We've discussed the financial costs relating to each subject.

We know that money is tight.

The government wants to spend £5 million

over five years in this area.

They are hoping to vaccinate 70% of these badgers,

which means 2,000 badgers.

If my sums are correct, that will cost £2,500.

Is there a concern that it could spread in this direction?

Who said it could come here?

It is coming closer. It does raise its head now and again.

-But not here, does it?

-Yes. There are a few cases.

It's all being sorted out quickly.

From what I understood, it's not an animal that wanders far.

The cattle carry it, not the badgers themselves.

When the cattle are transported.

Who else would like to speak? Do you have something to say?

I see quite a lot of them killed on the A55.

LAUGHTER

Accidentally, or intentionally?

Accidentally, I think.

When I travel to Wrexham, I see quite a few of them on the roads.

OK. Yes, what would you like to say?

A lot of money has been spent on these badgers,

but I wouldn't like to see them come into this area.

They would kill all the animals.

This place would no longer exist.

This area is very agricultural.

What has the government spent all its money on?

What have they done with it over all these years?

Yes. A good point. Gareth Jones?

If they don't sort this out soon,

what is going to happen to people?

It's then that we'll need the local hospital.

You work for the NFU, if I remember rightly.

Yes. A point I would like to raise

is that over the last few years,

the agricultural industry has taken a lot of responsibility

over trying to control TB in regard to the transportation of cattle.

Each animal must be tested before being moved

and within a certain amount of days.

That in itself has affected how the farmer can sell its stock.

There's a substantial cost involved in that already.

-That in itself has helped keep levels down.

-Briefly, please.

Because the economy is in a downwards spiral at the moment,

the only area doing well at the moment is agriculture.

I'm surprised the government is not trying to help out more

with what is actually being successful.

I feel that we have been let down by the politicians.

The vaccination would be a sign of them doing something.

Badgers come out at night.

You have to catch them first.

And we don't even know if the vaccine will work.

You might have to vaccinate them more than once.

-You might have to do it twice.

-Very briefly.

Are you talking about killing every badger

so that there aren't any badgers who could carry the disease?

Is that the intention?

The proposal was to cull all badgers in one area,

to see if it would stop the disease in that area

and then see what would work from then on.

No-one wants to kill healthy badgers.

I think we will be discussing this

in the next series of Pawb a'i Farn,

and the one after that.

So I'm going to leave that there.

I'm going to squeeze in one last question from Margaret Jones.

Can we hear your question, please?

Does the panel agree that it is unwise

for shops to be open for longer

on a Sunday during the Olympic Games?

Your wording of that question reveals your view on the subject.

Does the panel agree it is unwise

for shops to be open for longer

on a Sunday during the Olympic Games? Mike Parry.

I don't think it's unwise

because so many people will be going to London.

We have to realise that.

When you look at the prices of hotels in London,

it's £700 - £800 a night in some hotels.

If people pay those prices, they've got money to spend.

So we should take advantage of that. Because the economy really needs it.

But unfortunately, the majority of it will be in London.

-You don't think it'll affect businesses here.

-No.

Bethan?

If I've understood it properly,

the majority of these shops will be in London.

I know that the theatres

and restaurants in London are worried that nobody will be able

to get into central London anyway to eat and enjoy themselves.

They are closed during the week, let alone Sundays.

I think this is a daft attempt to test the water

to see what could happen in years to come in other areas.

I think it's just an opportunity for big shops

to make yet more money.

You wouldn't like to see them open all day every day?

I worry about us as a society,

if we think we have to go to Tesco every blinkin' day!

But it's a chance for people to go if they can't go on other days.

-They're open 24 hours a day!

-Margaret, what do you think?

-How much more do they want?

-What is your complaint?

It's nice to have one day for the family,

whether it's to socialise or relax or go to chapel to worship.

You want to keep Sunday as it has been in the past. What about you?

Isn't it crazy after spending these billions on the Games,

that we put up a "closed" sign?

We close the door on these people who've come to London and say,

"Sorry, it's Sunday. We're shut. We don't want your money."

-Is that a good idea?

-Open the shops, you say. In the back?

-It's going on for weeks,

so I don't think it's fair to close the shops for one day.

If they want to go there, give them the right.

These people are coming to watch the Games from right across the world. They're not only Christians.

I think we should take advantage and take their money

because the Government has spent so much money on the Games,

as well as other companies, so I think we should take advantage.

Thank you. And you?

I'm sure people are worried that these shops are going to stay open

on Sundays after the Olympics are over.

Personally, I don't think it's right,

but I think the floodgates are open already.

Yes. Alun Ffred Jones, the floodgates are already open?

The Olympics is now a business. I'm a sports fan.

You're no longer the Minister for Sport.

It would be handy to get a ticket! But there we are.

The Olympics is a business, Coca Cola, BT, that's what it is.

You're insulting the Games.

They said the purpose of the Olympics was to inspire

young people to take part in sport.

-But the truth is there are fewer taking part.

-They're not likely to?

That's what's happened, according to the figures.

-It's a business and this confirms that fact.

-I hope you get a ticket.

-You have ten seconds, Rhys.

-It's an irrelevant question in a way.

They're talking about this huge supermarkets - Tescos, Morrisons.

I wouldn't join you in chapel, but I do think we're losing something as regards Sunday.

We should at least have a day of peace with less capitalism.

Thank you. And thank you to the audience in Pwllheli. Our time is up.

Join us again in the autumn. Thank you very much.