31/01/2013 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this evening, the president of the Farmers' Union of Wales, Emyr Jones.

Malan Vaughan Wilkinson, a communications officer for Theatr y Fran Wen.

Liberal Democrat Aled Roberts, one of the members for North Wales in the Assembly.

And the local MP and leader of Plaid Cymru at Westminster, Elfyn Llwyd.

Please welcome them.

Good evening and welcome to the programme. It is Thursday night.

Tonight, we have arrived in Meirionnydd for the first time this series.

The last time we were in Bala, we almost failed to have a programme due to the snow.

The situation has improved this evening

and our audience have managed to arrive from the surrounding area.

You are welcome to get in touch during or after the programme,

the addresses are on the screen, as usual.

And if you want to be in the audience over the coming weeks,

we will be in Welshpool, Cardiff with an audience of young people

and then in the Rhondda Valley.

The panel and the questions are ready. Let's hear the first.

What is your question?

We had more statistics yesterday showing a fall in Welsh speakers.

Is a lack of jobs for young people partly responsible?

Thank you very much.

We had more statistics yesterday showing a fall in Welsh speakers.

Is a lack of jobs for young people partly responsible?

What are the answers? I'll start with you, Aled Roberts.

It is definitely partly responsible but I think it is a complex picture.

The problems change from area to area.

But if you look at the figures for Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire

and also parts of rural Wales, there is a problem with the younger

generation moving from those areas due to a lack of work.

Malan?

Yes, certainly,

I agree that a lack of work for young people is partly responsible.

But I also agree that it is a complex picture.

I think that research looking at graduate recruitment

published at the start of the month showed that one of the main

concerns of graduates in Wales is a lack of jobs.

Less than half of our main employers can offer students work

and that means that they have two cross the border to

look for work or maybe be unemployed.

We know that there has been an increase in unemployment

among young people. Certainly this is an important factor.

I think that we need strong leadership

and investment in the economy and in jobs

and I also think we can look at this as a subject that needs jobs,

but there are training schemes available.

We have an apprenticeship scheme and it is a very good scheme.

It gives people an opportunity to get

an opportunity in the creative industries

and the field I work in, there are not many jobs in North Wales.

Everyone is flocking to Cardiff.

Certainly, I think a lack of work is partly responsible.

-So it is partly responsible, would you agree with that?

-Yes.

But I would also add that it is important that we now ensure

that people realise that living through the medium of Welsh

is possible and that we must be prepared to do it.

As I heard someone at the rally on Saturday saying,

we are too willing to switch to English when speaking to learners.

It is important that we work hard. May I add one more thing?

Yes, of course, we should be working harder to secure jobs for rural

Wales, but one of the things that causes problems is this

idea of sending 50% of people to university when there

are no jobs for them at the end of the day, that is a stupid idea.

They would be better off maybe starting businesses

in their own areas, full apprenticeships learning skills.

But maybe young people are not led to thinking those ways.

-We always say on this programme, maybe we as a nation are showing a lack of enterprise.

-That is a fact.

Some of these young people, I was with school pupils recently and they were saying exactly the same thing.

It is not that I want to stop people from going to university.

But in the days when I went to university, there was a chance of a job at the end of it.

Is it worth getting into debt? These days, young people,

they are getting into £40,000 worth of debt and there are no jobs.

It is better for them to be told, going to university is not the only way to get along and make a living.

If you want to think about making a living or creating

a business in your own area, go for it. That is the way to do it.

It is more of a problem than merely a lack of work. We will return to that.

Let's get Emyr Jones in on this subject.

It is very sad that we are losing young people from these areas.

There are empty factories here.

We should be doing everything we can to get people into work

and to have industries coming in and people to take on these factories.

But it is a wider picture than that.

We have heard the statistics regarding the Welsh language

and it is very sad. The future is in our hands, I believe.

Do not rely on the Assembly Government to save the Welsh

-language.

-But surely we should be looking for leadership from them?

It's pointless waiting for leadership from them.

We know Carwyn Jones's attitude over the past fortnight.

He says that the problem is not as bad as we think.

It is a huge problem. What was his attitude this morning?

Him and Leighton Andrews.

They were asked for an interview on Radio Cymru

and there was no-one from the Assembly available to comment.

-Maybe they were busy.

-You cannot rely on them.

It says it all to me about the Assembly Government. We need to act.

I will return to you. Thank you for those comments.

Elfyn Llwyd, your party was part of that government for some time during this decade.

You are partly to blame, if we are looking for leadership.

Well, certainly, I think that we are all to blame.

But we need to concentrate now in the coming months and

I partly disagree there,

we should put our political badges to one side

and sit around the table. It is a crisis in Wales.

Whatever party, Tory, Labour, Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru.

We need to play our part for the future of the language

and the nation on the way to do that is to concentrate in the coming

months on getting together and sharing ideas.

Is there the political will for that?

People in different constituencies may see other priorities.

I don't know.

But the point is that there are enough people within all

the parties in Wales to get together and work on this.

We need to stop this from happening or we will be in trouble.

I want to come back in on this

because we know the Assembly Government's policy.

They want to build more and more houses.

These houses are built in villages and towns in Wales.

They are too expensive for the local people to buy them.

And who is coming in? These houses are costing over £300,000.

The local people cannot afford them. What happens?

It affects the Welsh language

and I'm not surprised with these statistics.

You asked the question. What do you think?

I agree regarding the houses that are being built.

They are much too big and expensive for the people that have just

come out of university, looking for work.

If there is no work for them, they do not have a good wage to be able to buy these houses.

And they have to leave their communities.

-That affects the Welsh language.

-Do you think you may leave?

I don't want to, but it's a possibility.

What about your friends?

Well, if there are no jobs available,

there is no point staying, if there is no future.

-You will move to somewhere where there are jobs.

-And you?

-I agree.

-You don't foresee you staying in this area?

-No.

-Your hand is up.

-I agree with Elfyn Llwyd and Emyr Jones.

The young people leave to go to university

and there is no-one left to start up these businesses.

You need people staying in their areas.

Once they leave, they will not return.

They will find something better elsewhere. That's what I think.

-What about you?

-It is true.

We have lost a lot of young people in this area.

They have gone and they will not return.

-Is there anything to attract them back?

-No. There is no work.

As we have heard, the factories are closing.

They open for a couple of years and then they have disappeared.

Thank you. I can see a hand up over here.

I would like to ask, how do you expect students moving back

to the area to start their own businesses when they can't afford a mortgage,

they can't afford a loan from the bank, they're living at home with their parents

because they can't afford to pay rent,

they have to put up with part-time seasonal jobs and minimum wage?

How do you expect anything from?

-Do you think that is a general picture?

-Yes.

Let's return to Aled Roberts. We have not heard from him in a while.

I do not think this is a problem just for Wales.

Depopulation is a problem affecting

Scotland, Northern Ireland and across Europe.

One thing is that maybe the picture in 2001 was too positive.

And as a result, the strategy was insufficient.

The Government thought there was no need...

I am not blaming any parties in particular.

The Assembly did not have a sufficient strategy.

But was there an effort to reach those targets?

Was enough money spent? Was there enough investment,

-and of leadership, from ministers from all parties?

-It appears no.

And I think the questions that have come from the Census is that maybe

we need more radical policies than the Assembly has considered so far.

At least now the Assembly has the power to legislate

in the field of houses, planning, economic development

and it is up to them now, all the parties in the Assembly,

-to show leadership on this subject.

-I will give you a word.

This is the word I will give you, "observatory".

-What does that mean?

-Does it mean anything to you?

That is what the Welsh Commissioner is establishing in order to

develop a structure to introduce new policies? Do we need that?

We need something. If that is it then fine.

-But can I return to this point.

-I want you to discuss this one.

It sounds to me like a talking shop.

I must admit, it does not sound too good to me.

But returning to this point now, this young girl is right.

The point I was trying to make, the Government needs to change direction

as far as pumping people into the university,

making it possible for people to start businesses locally,

we need to change direction, introduce new strategies.

Is that going to save the Welsh language? We need more than that.

People need opportunities to stay in their own local areas.

-Malan? Observatory?

-I think there needs to be a number of levels if we are serious about

the Welsh language and improving the situation in strongholds.

I agree that we need to introduce strong guidelines

and specific guidelines to tackle the problem

but the problem with this is that I feel that we spend

half our lives forming reports and reaching conclusions.

These sad figures, I would say, they are in our faces right now

and I would say maybe it's time to act.

One comment I heard on the Radio Cymru this morning was that...

-You're a good listener.

-I am. They are good programmes.

One comment I heard was that the Basque country in northern

Spain spends 180,000. How much does the Assembly Government spend?

25,000. And the populations of those countries are similar.

And there are more people speaking the language in the Basque country than there are in Wales.

If I remember correctly, that figure came from a former Chief Executive of the Welsh Language Board.

We could discuss figures for hours.

But do you think these figures that came out yesterday will spark action soon?

There is also a personal responsibility.

There are Welsh speakers that are not transferring the Welsh language to their children.

And there are children going to Welsh medium schools at the

moment and when they reach their teens, they choose to speak English.

How can we change that?

As part of my job, I have an opportunity to go

around schools in Wales and one of the things that surprises me

even in strongholds, to be honest, is seeing young people

turning to English, it is the language of the schoolyard.

-It's cool.

-Yes, it seems it is cool.

And the reason given time and time again is the lack of confidence

or maybe they don't feel that their Welsh is good enough.

I think there is an opportunity for us all socially to pull together and urge people and young people

to use the Welsh language but also provide opportunities for them

socially to use the Welsh language and be proud of it.

I also want to see more support from political parties.

There are supporters of the Welsh language in all parties.

We need to get together and stop the talk and act.

-The time has come for action.

-There we are.

And on that note, we will end that subject. Thank you.

Let's move on. At first, it's time for a break. Join us in two minutes.

Welcome back. We are in Bala this week. On to the second question.

This question comes from Mirain Roberts. What's your question?

According to Gwynedd County Council's decision,

Ysgol Y Parc will close in August.

-Are other schools under threat?

-Thank you very much.

Ysgol Y Parc closes in August.

Other schools are possibly under threat. Is it over for small schools?

No. It depends on the size of the school,

the quality of the education, it depends on a lot of factors.

It depends on if it is possible to federalise,

have one head teacher for two or three schools and so on.

The process is sad and no-one wants to see schools closing.

I have not met anyone pleased to see schools closing.

It is part of the village, part of the community. Having said...

There are some people keen to see them close.

Well, they're not keen to see them close, they have had to come to that decision.

The situation, it is continuing in Anglesey,

the Clwyd Valley, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire.

What's happening is that the Assembly has

said that there are too many empty places and as a result,

something needs to be changed or the Assembly itself will come in

and decide what is best. Because these councils need to do something.

-So it is over for the small schools.

-It depends what you mean by "small".

It means different things to different people.

But also what needs to be considered is that some educators say that

if you go down to under a dozen pupils, it gets difficult to maintain education.

It's not possible to have a football match.

It's not possible to play a full role in education and so on.

Because it is not only learning on paper,

education is a lot of other things, I think.

Can I emphasise, no-one is glad to see this happening.

But it has been forced on all councils and eventually,

they will have to do act.

I think everything must be done to keep these rural schools open.

-Is there enough being done?

-No. I don't think so.

The school is the heart of the community.

And if the school closes, then the community is affected.

We have seen are generally in other areas and I hope...

It is over for Parc?

It is a sad chapter in our history, losing the school.

And the area has fought as hard as any other area in Wales to

keep it open and they have failed.

That is what is sad about the situation.

We don't need to be looking at money and the cost all the time.

You cannot put a price on the contribution the school

makes to the community.

So you say not enough is being done to keep these small schools open?

-Is that fair?

-Yes.

And so in this specific case, Gwynedd Council, under the leadership

of Plaid Cymru, has not done enough to keep small schools open?

It comes back to the first question,

how can we keep our young people in rural areas?

If we had a structure to keep young people in rural areas,

the economy would be stronger, and then given people would

live in rural areas, marry and raise families.

But that's not about to happen tomorrow or the day after. That's the ideal.

Yes, but the question about Europe is exactly the same thing.

It comes back to money for rural Wales.

Right. Let's turn to the audience. The back row.

I live in Llangwm and the first question mentioned the Census

and Llangwm is one of the Welshest areas in the county.

You expect councillors in Conwy... It is a council

with a large number of English-speaking councillors,

but they see the value in keeping small schools going.

They see that is what the census has proved.

-And you say that is linked to small schools.

-Yes, definitely.

What I can't believe is that Gwynedd Council is doing this.

Conwy Council is looking at ways to cooperate.

But they're not looking at closing.

They are looking for other opportunities.

I cannot believe Gwynedd Council has forced this on the community.

-Briefly, what about the future of Llangwm School? Is that under threat?

-The numbers are low

but we haven't heard from Conwy Council that they intend to close.

So you are disappointed with Gwynedd Council.

Elfyn Llwyd, you can come back on that as it is a Plaid Cymru led council.

Conwy Council is closing schools.

If you read the policy papers, they are being forced to do that.

In the same way, Anglesey, Denbighshire is already doing it, all schools are in this situation.

The Assembly has said there are too many empty places.

It is not unique to Gwynedd. It's happening all over Wales.

Unfortunately.

Do you feel uneasy that your party is responsible in Gwynedd?

A party that we would have thought in the past as a party that supported rural areas?

I hope that we remain a party that supports rural areas.

It was a decision by the council as a whole,

all parties voted the same way, except for one.

-Malan Wilkinson?

-It is a difficult situation.

It is not an easy situation, it is sensitive.

There is no doubt that a small school, schools in general,

they are central to the community.

The question following the reorganisation

and closing the schools is do we need to rethink the way that we consider Welsh areas?

I think that in a number of cases, the main consideration is education and in some situations,

where maybe some would argue that the provision is not the best

possible and that the opportunities are not as wide as

they could be, I think there is room to consider closing.

But of course, I also think that we need to think

carefully about how we will help our communities.

And it is a difficult situation and sensitive situation,

but the community needs to come together to make sure

there are enough other opportunities for everyone to contribute.

But not all communities have died following the closure of a school?

There are examples.

Yes, but I still say that the school is the heart of the community.

Everything is held there.

It is so important to the future of rural communities.

I will return to the audience.

When talking about the standard of education in Wales

and they say that it is not as good as it should be.

But this is a golden opportunity...

I have asked many times over the years,

how do you work out these empty places in a school?

I will make it simple.

There are 30 children in this class, by next year, only 20,

this is a golden opportunity,

teachers will have 20 children in the class, they can give them

more attention, behaviour improves, and the teacher have less paperwork.

And maybe it does not affect their health.

In some schools, they have 13 pupils per class.

This is an opportunity.

Forget the empty spaces and use them as smaller classes.

Further over. Yes? One of you.

The carbon footprint comes into this as well,

if they have to transport children miles away to other schools.

The further away they are, the more problems we have.

The villages that don't have schools in the future,

the young people who want to get married and have children

will tend to buy houses in villages that have schools.

The villages without a school will get older and older.

That's what I predict.

And over again.

Although I come from Y Parc and I've been part of this battle,

it's very sad that this has happened.

Do you accept Elfyn's point? It's inevitable sometimes?

Yes, because money controls everything.

If they had told us at the start,

it would have saved a lot of problems.

But financial considerations are important.

The community in Y Parc wanted to keep that school.

Nobody has left the school to go to another school,

which we see in some cases.

We have a young community.

There are only two or three pensioners.

It is a young area. People have jobs.

I don't think anybody is unemployed in our area.

The school has kept the community together.

I dread to think what will happen.

So they'll travel to Llanuwchllyn now?

-23 pupils are supposed to, yes.

-How far away is that?

There's no guarantee they'll go.

-How far away is it?

-Three-and-a-half miles.

Your hand was up.

I've also been fighting to keep Ysgol Llandrillo open.

Denbighshire Council has closed the school twice as often as Parc.

Although we fought hard and asked all kinds of questions,

they had made their minds up from the start.

-We couldn't do anything.

-And you didn't accept their arguments?

-No.

The school wasn't too small. It wasn't.

Mirain, you asked the questions.

One question I have is, why is it so difficult for young people

to get planning permission in small villages like Llangwm?

If we had planning permission we would stay in the village

and build a house and raise a family.

Then the schools would not be under threat.

What about the character of the village?

I know of a lot of people who have tried to get planning permission

but have been rejected by the council.

We have no hope of bringing up small families.

Aled Roberts, you have not contributed on this issue?

It's a very difficult situation, to be honest.

The problem that Gwynedd Council has is the size of the reductions

across the county.

In a county like Wrexham, we had four schools with under 50 pupils.

It was easy to make the decisions to keep those schools open.

Two of them in Ceiriog Valley with less than 25 children.

But the size of the problem in councils like Gwynedd

makes it a very difficult decision.

As a result, the education budget suffers.

There's so much pressure on the councils,

if they put more money into the education system,

social services and so on, they suffer.

-I don't envy council leaders...

-It was easier in Wrexham?

It is easier.

In Wrexham, we had to decide how many schools to open.

This is part of the problem in terms of depopulation.

Don't think for a minute that any councillor wants to close a school.

We will have to leave that there to squeeze as much as possible in.

Let's go to our third question, from Alwyn Parry Jones.

What's your question?

Because so much has changed since Britain joined the European Union,

isn't it time to reconsider the relationship and hold a referendum?

Thank you very much. I knew we would discuss Europe at some point.

Because so much has changed since Britain joined the European Union,

isn't it time to reconsider the relationship and hold a referendum,

as David Cameron has suggested over the last few weeks?

May I start with Emyr Jones?

I would accept that a lot has changed

since we joined the common market,

but I think it would be better for the Prime Minister

to do his best to hold talks with the other 26 countries

to reach the best agreement possible for Britain.

That's what he intends to do.

He's trying to reach a better agreement.

Yes, but what if he doesn't get it?

He's going into these discussions, in my opinion,

holding a gun to the other countries.

He's saying if he does not get what he wants from the rest of them,

he's going to hold a referendum and risk coming out of Europe.

For me, that's too much of a risk.

In Wales we depend completely

on European money.

We receive half a billion pounds a year from Europe.

We use that to sustain the economy in Wales.

So you welcome all of the money that farmers get as well?

I wouldn't say we're doing well.

That comes into the economy in general.

-But you welcome the money and grants.

-Yes, of course.

80% of the income of farms in Wales

comes from that money.

It's not from the sale of animals.

-No wonder you want to stay in Europe, then?

-Exactly.

If we want more for our animals,

are people then going to pay more for our lambs and cattle?

I wouldn't like them to at the moment.

It's not easy for them.

Let's hear from Aled Roberts.

The Liberal Democrats love Europe.

No, I think it's healthy to look at this relationships.

But the decisions about a referendum is more to do with internal problems

within the Conservative Party and the threat from UKIP

than it is the relationship between Britain and Europe.

But don't we have a right to a voice?

We have not had a vote since 1975.

A lot has changed since then. Are you afraid of public opinion?

I don't think that much has changed.

But look at the number of countries to start with.

We discussed changes in 2008

with the Lisbon Treaty.

At the time maybe we should have had a referendum, but we decided not to.

At the moment nothing has changed since 2008.

I think that David Cameron himself is foolish

if he thinks that the other 26 countries

will give Britain a different status in the relationship.

They might want to keep Britain in Europe.

They might, but £9.4 billion from Europe

goes into the agriculture industry in Britain.

If you look at Norway,

changing the relationship's not easy.

Norway pays around £2 billion to Europe.

On top of that,

there's a levy on every agricultural product leaving Norway.

Let's turn to the audience. The back row.

A lot of money comes into agriculture

but there are complaints about the grants.

This programme tonight would not be broadcast without grants.

And the licence fee.

The money comes from your pocket as well.

-The money is given to you.

-Alwyn, you asked the question.

40 years ago, the question was,

should Britain be a part of a wider market?

Today, Europe interferes

and effects every aspects of our lives here in Wales.

Do we want to be a part of that?

I think the public should have the opportunity to say "yes" or "no".

If we allow people like Mr Cameron to make the decision,

he will have changed his mind by tomorrow morning

and so will the others.

-So you want a vote?

-Yes.

Malan Wilkinson?

I would welcome a vote, to be honest.

I think it's encouraging if we are talking about a healthy democracy.

I work in the arts.

I know we've benefited from European money since 2009.

As a company we've worked with 300 young people on projects.

That deals with cultural experiences for young people

from deprived backgrounds.

Those projects make a huge difference

in the lives of young people.

They often give them confidence

and can change their lives sometimes.

So I welcome the idea.

But first I think we need a national debate about it.

Europe touches us all, in a way.

But something tells me if you asked ten people on the street

what we get from Europe,

you would not get much clarity on the matter.

But three of you have been grateful for the money you received.

I am, but sometimes the bureaucracy with the schemes,

it can be a bit tiresome and should be looked at again.

Thank you. Yes?

Wales is doing well out of Europe.

For every pound Wales gives to Europe, we get £40 back.

If there was a referendum and England decided to opt out,

what will happen to us?

We'll answer that in a moment.

At the back.

All this talk of a referendum is causing uncertainty

for agriculture and other industries.

Leaving Europe is a very serious matter.

I think that our rural areas would disintegrate.

Agriculture benefits a lot from our connection with Europe.

Is a referendum an effective way of dealing with such a big issue?

This has come about because the Prime Minister wants to satisfy

one group within his own party

and he may have done that in the short-term.

A pupil from Ysgol Y Berwyn.

I agree with what you have to say.

I feel David Cameron is trying to please the public

because UKIP is trying to attract voters.

He's trying to gain our attention rather than sort the problem out.

-Yes?

-I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the fact

that Europe's accounts

have been rejected... by auditors.

In that sense,

we're dealing with an establishment that is immoral

and illegal.

One more from the back row.

When you talk about farmers getting money,

farmers are very good at spending locally.

Farmers help the local economy. But their wives spend more!

And thanks to European money for that.

We'll have a vote here in a minute to see who wants to stay in Europe

and who doesn't. Elfyn?

We're discussing this issue at the moment

because the Prime Minister is in trouble.

As Aled Roberts said, the Prime Minister is worried about UKIP

and half of his party disagrees with him.

He said in the House of Commons he wanted to push for a referendum

but he will vote in favour of staying in Europe.

What he's trying to say is that he is trying to get through

to the next election without a referendum

in order to win the next election. That's far from certain.

He had the nerve to tell one of my colleagues in Scotland,

he was asked, why do you criticise Alex Salmond

for having a referendum in 18 months' time,

which you say is too long,

but you are willing to have one in five years?

He's playing politics.

It's an important issue.

Dr Roberts is right. I'm not happy with a lot of things in Europe

That's one thing.

But there are also some wonderful aspects

like the structural money and the agriculture money.

But we get that because we're poor.

I'm not proud of it, but I'm glad it's there.

The point is that some things need to be done

but you cannot change the club from outside.

You have to stand on your feet and debate from within.

A vote for the audience in a moment, but, Elfyn, a referendum, yes or no?

If the people decide we should, then that's it.

-Aled?

-No problem with a referendum but the uncertainty's a problem.

-Malan?

-Yes.

I don't have a problem.

If there was a referendum, would you stay in Europe or not?

Put your hands up if you would stay in Europe.

Anybody want to pull out?

Alwyn is one... two.

Three. One at the back.

The majority want to stay in Europe.

I think we'll take a short break. Join us after the ads.

Welcome back.

Pawb a'i Farn is from Bala tonight.

Let's go to our next question, from Mair Penri.

Is the protest by Eos and Welsh musicians

endangering the future of Radio Cymru?

Mair asks, is the protest by Eos and Welsh musicians

endangering the future of Radio Cymru?

They don't want their music to be played on Radio Cymru

until they're paid higher royalty payments.

I'll start with you, Malan Wilkinson.

I think the future of Radio Cymru as we know it

is in the balance.

There's still no agreement between the BBC and Eos and Welsh musicians.

I think this is a contractual matter between the BBC

and the Welsh musicians.

I get the impression that Radio Cymru is doing all that it can.

They are eager to reach an agreement.

There's no doubt that since the company that collects royalties

changed the way it moves the money in 2007,

Welsh musicians have lost up to 85% of their income.

-But not before then?

-Not before then.

Maybe they were receiving too much before then,

but that is a different question.

I want to see an agreement now.

We need to nurture our musicians.

We need a lively and modern platform through Radio Cymru.

Radio Cymru has been criticised in the last few weeks

but I feel there is...

..a gap in the output.

I hope an agreement is reached soon.

But on a positive note,

I have enjoyed some of the diversity we have heard.

I like classical music, folk music and world music...

That's a lesson for the future.

Maybe we'll have more of that in the future,

without affecting Welsh musicians.

You say you blame the PRS

and maybe the BBC centrally,

but are they right to target Radio Cymru?

I think that it's fair that Radio Cymru

is central to the discussions.

If anything good has come from the situation,

it's the establishment of Eos

which is a voice for Welsh musicians.

Although it is the PRS which has changed the system?

The fact that Eos exists is good

because it means that Welsh musicians can take responsibility

for their future.

I hope there is an agreement soon

but I think that Radio Cymru has made every effort as well.

We have heard from Rhodri Talfan Davies and Sian Gwynedd.

Let's go Mair Penri who asked the question,

what are you concerned about?

I have asked this question because there are older people in Bala

who are missing the service.

It finishes at 9pm and the older people at home miss it.

Middle-aged people and youngsters don't miss it?

I'm talking about elderly people.

They miss the company.

Having said that, I can see their point of view.

As I understand it,

They only receive pennies these days

and that is a disgrace.

So I do support the Welsh musicians.

Yes? At the back.

I don't think that there has been enough political pressure

to sort the problem out.

If there was unfairness like this in any other field

it would have been sorted out immediately.

The BBC doesn't realise how much young people miss Radio Cymru.

Welsh musicians don't have another platform to show their work.

They turn to other stations.

-But you say that the politicians have not done enough?

-Yes.

Let's turn to Elfyn Llwyd.

I think that's true.

Politicians have a role to play.

At the end of the day,

Radio Cymru receives money from the fee we pay.

It receives £13.5 million a year to run Radio Cymru.

What worries me is that it's a very unfair situation.

Welsh musicians receive 49p a minute.

The Asian Network gets £6.17 a minute.

But there are four times as many Asian listeners

as there are Welsh listeners.

-That's the explanation.

-So Welsh musicians should be getting £2.

It should be £2 or more.

So it's completely unfair.

The musicians can't live on that kind of money.

Should they be depending on Radio Cymru for their income?

Yes, because they produce the work and people listen to it.

As the young man said,

it's the only platform for Welsh musicians.

It's important that we protect it.

What worries me is that the BBC Trust in Wales

is now sitting on its hands. They don't seem to be doing much.

I don't think they're doing enough.

And what happens, they are waiting to receive orders from London.

There's no point having these trustees.

But where's the political pressure?

I think that the Welsh Government should intervene.

This comes at the same time

as we've had these terrible Census figures.

It endangers the Welsh language, the Welsh communities

and Welsh culture.

And it does endanger the future of Radio Cymru.

If Radio Cymru does not play Welsh music,

there's no point having it.

There are other station that play classical music and so on.

It's important that the politicians

get the parties around the table and come to some kind of solution.

-You look shocked.

-Better late than never, I say.

This has been a serious situation since 2007.

We need more leadership from politicians.

I'm amazed it has taken so long.

We don't know much about the details of the row at the moment

but this problem must be settled.

The sooner this is settled, the better.

Radio Cymru is crucial to the future of the Welsh language.

The Welsh musicians, how much have they contributed

to sustaining the Welsh language over the years?

But should that income come from Radio Cymru's budget?

Yes, as that is how broadcasting works.

-Aled Roberts?

-I enjoyed listening to Wrexham's game in Alfreton.

I may not have heard that without this dispute.

We've heard about the problem.

The formula is complicated.

There have been discussions in Cardiff between the parties and Eos.

An offer has been placed before their members,

but if the dispute is not solved, politicians will have to intervene.

Thank you very much. That's the end of our programme.

Thank you to the audience.

The weather in Meirionnydd is better than last time.

Thank you to the panel.

Next week we will be in Welshpool.

I hope that you can join us then, but for now, good night.