07/02/2013 Pawb a'i Farn


07/02/2013

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On our panel tonight,

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the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies.

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The Deputy Agriculture Minister in the Assembly, Alun Davies.

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The journalist and editor of Heno, Angharad Mair.

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The organiser of the National Eisteddfod, Hywel Wyn Edwards.

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Please welcome them.

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Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

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I hope you're ready for another hour of discussion and debate here on S4C.

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Once again we've been attracted back to northern Powys.

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We're here in Welshpool leisure centre with an audience

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from all over the former county of Montgomeryshire.

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The last time we were here the hot topic was wind turbines,

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let's see if it's still the same.

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Next week, we'll be in Cardiff with a group of young people.

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You're welcome to come as long as you're young.

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But tonight the people of Powys of all ages can have their say.

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Let's have our first question asked by Glyn Williams.

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Glyn Williams what's your question?

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The Westminster Government has decided to cull badgers

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in specific areas.

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Remembering that a lot of cattle are destroyed in Wales due to TB,

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shouldn't the Welsh Government reconsider the vaccination policy?

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Many thanks, Glyn.

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The Westminster Government has decided to cull badgers

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in specific areas. Remembering that cattle in Wales

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are being destroyed due to TB,

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shouldn't the Welsh Government reconsider the vaccination policy??

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Let's start with a member of the Government, Alun Davies.

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What about it?

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Wales is the only country in Britain where there is a policy

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to prevent TB in wildlife.

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You're right to say in what's happened in England.

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But they haven't had cases in England.

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I think what farmers in Wales want is to see the Government

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taking action and the Government has taken action.

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1,400 badgers have been vaccinated during the summer.

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The programme will re-start in the next few months.

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We all know this is going to be a problem for years to come

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but the decision has been made by the Welsh Government

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and by the Welsh Assembly

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and I think it's now time to move on with a policy.

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I know the policy isn't popular amongst a lot of farmers.

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They haven't been convinced that it works.

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It is supported by the Assembly and, I think,

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the majority of people in Wales. That's where we're at.

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I know it's not popular in the agricultural community.

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You're predicting an unpopular response here.

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We've been here before. But I do think...

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But the farmers opinion doesn't convince you?

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The time for discussion has passed.

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It's time to move on and act on the policies that we have

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and I am confident this policy will succeed.

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Can I ask a few questions about that. How long will this experiment last?

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How can you say if it's been successful?

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It's going to last for five years and we are considering,

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and there was a statement on this in the Assembly

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less than a month ago, at looking

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to eradicate TB in cattle in Wales.

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We know that Welsh farmers have worked very hard

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when it comes to safeguarding animals.

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I'm very grateful to a lot of people who have worked extremely hard

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to make sure that's happening.

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With our policy for wildlife and with security,

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I hope we can eradicate TB.

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A full answer.

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Have you been convinced as a farmer yourself, Glyn Davies?

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I've heard a lot from the farmers.

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What I think is important is to get evidence

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if culling badgers will have an affect.

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That's why we have to have a pilot scheme.

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When the Welsh Government went down that route, Elin Jones

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was the minister then, and she wanted a pilot in Pembrokeshire.

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I supported what she said

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but now we've got these two pilot schemes in England this year.

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To be honest, it doesn't matter what the government does in Wales,

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we need to find out if culling badgers will work.

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If it does work, it will be implemented right through Britain.

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But that doesn't happen. They've gone against that policy.

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I have to say, Dewi, it wasn't going to be rolled out before October.

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It couldn't happen after October.

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The minister Owen Paterson from Shrewsbury...

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-But that's in England.

-..it will roll out in the summer.

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You hope that the Westminster Government policy

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will influence people like Alun Davies.

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Only if it's successful. That's what I expect.

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See if the pilot schemes are successful and having an affect,

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and then I'm sure the Welsh Government will do the same.

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-Are you ready to listen?

-Of course.

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We are already co-operating with DEFRA and the European Commission.

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Of course people are willing to learn from each other.

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I hope that if the vaccinating pilot scheme we have in Wales works,

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DEFRA will listen to what we've got to say.

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I have to say from my experience of cooperating with DEFRA,

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-they do tend to listen.

-Angharad Mair.

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If only the Welsh Language had the same status as the badgers

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to have all Governmental power to protect it.

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Badgers are a plague.

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If there was a plague of rats hit Welshpool this evening

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they will have been destroyed by the morning.

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It costs £30 million a year for us to compensate the farmers

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because of the badgers.

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Last year in a speech,

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Alun Davies here suggested that it would be impossible for anyone

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to be elected to the Assembly if he stood against culling badgers.

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Well, if you believe the contrary,

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make sure you vote for a party who are willing to cull badgers

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and show that Alun Davies and Labour are wrong.

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You can answer that, Alun.

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People had the opportunity to do that two years ago...

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If I can follow that point, the rural, agriculture vote

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isn't important to you?

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All your votes come from the urban areas?

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With due respect, that's not what she said.

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We do live in a democratic country.

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We have, we had an Assembly election in May two years ago.

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I think if there was a free vote in the Assembly today

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the Assembly would vote against the policy of culling.

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That's what I'm hearing from people from all parties.

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In every party there are people of culling badgers,

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and people against culling badgers.

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I don't think it's a party issue.

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But it is important, as Glyn has said, we do have that pilot,

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we do see what happens in Pembrokeshire.

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I've heard some good things up until now.

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If it does succeeded, I think the agriculture industry

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will join us and support vaccinating in every part of Wales.

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Hywel, what do you think?

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In the first place,

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I don't think I feel comfortable in killing any kind of animal.

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But saying that I can see the problem.

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The previous government in the Assembly had said

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they would go at it to cull badgers

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in one area in Wales, Pembrokeshire.

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But that changed following the last election.

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In England, they've decided to use different tactics.

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They're going to use two pilot areas, Somerset and Worcestershire.

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What I wonder is why can't we do a similar thing?

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There isn't going to be one answer.

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Alun says the Government has vaccinated 1,400 badgers.

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How many badgers are there?

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I'm sure that a very small percentage have been vaccinated.

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It seems they're like rabbits, and we know what rabbits are like!

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Well, there are even higher numbers adding to the problem.

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Why couldn't we continue with the vaccination project in one area,

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such as Pembrokeshire,

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and maybe in this area in Powys which is also a badger stronghold.

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Maybe we should have a culling scheme, a bit of both maybe.

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Let's ask some farmers in the audience.

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I'll come back to you, Glyn, seeing you asked the question.

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What concerns me is we've heard this is a five year project.

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How many cattle are going to die in that time?

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It's such a shame going onto a farm and seeing families of cows

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being lost for ever.

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After years and years of breeding they're all gone.

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Vaccinations don't help the farmer at all.

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You're willing to kill the cattle but how about tackling the badgers?

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You can come back. You're welcome to applaud. Aled Davies.

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It costs about £600, £700 to vaccinate every badger.

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You have to do it again and again, year after year.

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-Are those figures correct?

-That's only a small patch of Wales.

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How much would it cost to do the whole country?

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I think the ministers in the Assembly need to be vaccinated

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with a huge dose of common sense.

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Can I have the microphone here.

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Those figures were in the Farmers' Weekly this week. It costs £662.

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I live on a farm and it's not just TB.

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They destroy the land,

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they eat the worms which benefit the land and the crops.

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I see many of them every day.

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It's as much a problem here as it is in Pembrokeshire? In the back.

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There was an article in the Daily Mail yesterday saying

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badgers needed to be tackled immediately.

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One of the reasons for that is how the badgers effect

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other animals in the countryside.

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There used to be 36 million foxes in this country in the 1950s and 1960s.

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There's less than a million now.

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On top of that, badgers eat the eggs of birds that nest on the ground.

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I don't know if you've got five years for this vaccination project.

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-Something needs to be done now.

-You need immediate action.

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Let's go to this row.

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The problem you have now is the strain the farmer is under.

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They get the cattle ready in 60 days to test.

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If it's inconclusive you have to do it again.

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It goes on for months and months.

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All the stock that's destroyed.

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It plays on people's minds.

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That's the biggest problem.

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It gets worse in Montgomeryshire every day.

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One of my friends who lives two miles from Welshpool,

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they've found TB.

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-You don't think that is fast enough?

-No.

-Behind you, Emyr Jones.

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I think it's too late.

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What I'm afraid of is,

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many of these farmers who have lost their stock will have enough,

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as they say 60 days comes round so quickly,

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they're not going to keep cattle any more.

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We'll soon see that cattle are not being kept in Wales.

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People will have enough.

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Are farmers doing enough to protect their cows and stop TB themselves?

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What can they do? They can't do any more.

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You can go onto a farm

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and see the badgers have been there the night before.

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You can't keep cattle in cages.

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-Yes, back to you.

-We can't do anything.

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If you put up fences, they burrow underneath.

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We can't stop them.

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Robin Benbo in the back row.

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I've stopped keeping cattle because of that reason. There were problems.

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We have to remember that people need food

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and we're ready to bring in infected food from all over the world

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with Tesco's burgers.

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But we're willing to destroy cattle here.

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Maybe we should start eating badgers. Maybe that's an answer.

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-They'd be better than Tesco burgers.

-You've stopped...

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It was too much hard work with all the testing.

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A government vet would come and tell me how I could keep the cows

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and badgers separate from each other.

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How can you do that in a field?

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If you can show us that we'll follow your rules.

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-Can the minister answer that?

-You can do that now.

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Answer that when you consider that five years is a long time.

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Of course it is.

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Nobody, not even those who say culling badgers will have an impact,

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can say it will have an impact in less than five years' time.

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Nobody's arguing that, not even in England.

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It's fiction to believe

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if you start culling badgers this year you'll get rid of TB this year.

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Nobody believes that.

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Can I come back to safeguarding cattle,

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it is an important question.

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I think Welsh farmers do amazing work when it comes to do that.

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There is no way of stopping cattle going anywhere near badgers.

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We all know and understand that.

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But we have to do the two things at the same time.

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We have to have the biosecurity

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and respond to what's happening to wildlife too. We have to do both.

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A quick sentence from the other three.

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The problem is, I feel the same way.

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I don't think vaccinating will work.

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That's the reason why we have to have evidence.

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The government in Britain will have the pilot...

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From my point of view, both governments have

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the same evidence but have followed two different paths. Why?

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At the moment there isn't any hard evidence that

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badgers are having an effect.

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We have to have evidence

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because those against the policy believe we need evidence.

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That's happened in England.

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If the badger wasn't such a cute animal they'd be culled.

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Common sense is needed here, they are a pest and nothing else

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and they destroy hard work done by Welsh farmers.

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-Do they invade the Eisteddfod Maes, Hywel?

-I don't think so.

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I haven't see any.

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I was listening to Glyn earlier as he mentioned the cattle

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being destroyed.

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According to something I read recently 75,000 cattle

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have been destroyed during the last ten years. 1,500 vaccinations...

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There isn't any comparison.

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75,000 as this person mentioned...

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We'll think about that during the advert.

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Join us in about two minutes from Welshpool.

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Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Welshpool.

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Let's now turn to a topic we haven't discussed for quite some time.

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This question by Trefor Owen. What's your question?

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Would the panel be in favour of holding

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-the National Eisteddfod on two permanent sites?

-Many thanks.

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Trefor's seen who we've got on our panel this evening.

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Would the panel be in favour of holding

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the National Eisteddfod on two permanent sites?

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Well, we've got the biggest expert here to discuss that.

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Hywel Wyn Edwards, two permanent sites. Does that appeal?

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No, but I've got more to say and I'm sure

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we can talk about this from now until the next Pawb a'i Farn.

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-I'll give you two minutes.

-There we go.

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The Eisteddfod exists to protect the Welsh language

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and to boost the culture.

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What we feel, or those of us who work in it feel,

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it's important the Eisteddfod visits parts of Wales

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in order to do that kind of work right across the country rather than

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placing it in one site or two sites.

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The problem then would be, where would those permanent sites be?

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That would be a bigger hot potato than badgers.

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Wherever the Eisteddfod visits a lot of activity takes place

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in that area.

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The Eisteddfod has just visited the Vale of Glamorgan

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and Angharad was part of those activities.

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More than 150 events took place in the Vale of Glamorgan region.

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Before the Eisteddfod visited?

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Before the Eisteddfod and in the lead up to it,

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from two years before it was held.

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That is a big number of events which are held in the Welsh language.

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But do you have to go to a specific region to hold those events?

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Couldn't it be like the Show, for example?

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It's Gwynedd's turn this year and the events will be held there?

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Maybe it's true about the Show but I don't think we'd have the

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same response if that were to happen with the National Eisteddfod.

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Can I jump in? We've talked about what happens before the Eisteddfod.

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Is there any evidence that it influences that specific area?

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Legacy is always mentioned. Is that just myth?

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No, no, not at all.

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If you go back many years, here in Montgomeryshire one of things

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that stands out is Cwmni Theatr Maldwyn.

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Cwmni Theatr Maldwyn

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was started for the Machyhnlleth National Eisteddfod in 1981.

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That was the Maldwyn Eisteddfod.

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So, all kinds of things like that start up

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as a result of the Eisteddfod.

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Just this year, look at what's happened in Ebbw Vale

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with Only Boys Aloud and so forth.

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We accept this is your argument.

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You enjoy travelling and you want the Eisteddfod to continue moving.

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But we're in a different era these days when it comes to costs,

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the economy, cuts.

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Would this be a way of saving money by having two permanent sites?

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Well, this comes to the surface time and again.

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We have been discussing this internally.

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You'd need to buy a 300 acre sites in two areas.

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You'd have to find somewhere close to a town and a road network,

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maybe with a railway close by.

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People's expectations are very high

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so you'd have to put that infrastructure in.

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We estimate the cost of doing that for two sites,

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are you sitting down,

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in the region of £60 million.

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That's a huge amount of money.

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The Welsh Government gives something in the region of £500,000.

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You can work out the sum to make sure the Eisteddfod

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can continue for years to come.

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Alun Davies, does that idea appeal to you in an age of cuts?

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On a personal level, no, it doesn't.

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I know Roy Noble is leading a group of people

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who are looking into this and considering this.

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I look forward to reading their conclusions

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after the Denbigh Eisteddfod later on in the year.

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Can I say this, I represent a constituency

0:21:490:21:52

where about five per cent of the people speak Welsh.

0:21:520:21:54

I remember the impact the Eisteddfod had on Ebbw Vale.

0:21:540:21:58

It was the first time that many people in Ebbw Vale

0:21:580:22:01

and Tredegar got to hear Welsh on the streets.

0:22:010:22:04

It was the first time they went onto the Maes.

0:22:040:22:07

It is important to me that the Eisteddfod visits areas

0:22:070:22:11

like Blaenau Gwent and people get to be a part

0:22:110:22:15

of the Welsh speaking community.

0:22:150:22:18

It is important for that the Eisteddfod continues to travel.

0:22:180:22:22

But will the money be there to support the Eisteddfod?

0:22:220:22:25

It is difficult. I'm looking forward to hear what Roy Noble has to say.

0:22:250:22:30

That report is expected in September. Trefor, you asked the question.

0:22:300:22:36

Are you in favour?

0:22:360:22:38

I admire what Hywel's just said.

0:22:380:22:41

For years I have been agreeing with him.

0:22:410:22:45

I happen to be a member of the Eisteddfod Council

0:22:470:22:52

and the figures that we've received...

0:22:520:22:56

..of expenditure shocks a person.

0:22:580:23:00

Truly, it shocks a person.

0:23:000:23:04

The figures for holding the Eisteddfod?

0:23:040:23:07

A lot of that money is hidden,

0:23:070:23:11

to prepare the site, we don't see it.

0:23:110:23:16

But Hywel gave you a shocking number to buy a permanent site.

0:23:160:23:22

I'd like to thank Hywel for all the hard work he's done over the years.

0:23:250:23:29

Thank you, Hywel.

0:23:290:23:31

I hope he has a happy retirement.

0:23:340:23:37

Oh, you've revealed something to the nation there. In the back row, Glyn.

0:23:370:23:41

Should it travel or a permanent site?

0:23:410:23:44

I think it's important it continues to travel.

0:23:440:23:47

But the question I've got is has it grown too big to reach

0:23:470:23:51

every part of Wales?

0:23:510:23:53

That is a cause for concern for me.

0:23:530:23:55

There are areas that would wish to host it but due to the Eisteddfod's

0:23:570:24:02

size, it's grown too big or that's the reason we're given.

0:24:020:24:08

Many thanks. Gwenllian in the front row. What do you think?

0:24:080:24:12

To me the Eisteddfod's legacy is all important

0:24:120:24:15

and the fact you get to enjoy visiting different areas of Wales.

0:24:150:24:20

But it's also important that the Eisteddfod doesn't concentrate

0:24:200:24:23

on events on the Maes in the evenings.

0:24:230:24:25

Nearby towns and villages should feel

0:24:250:24:28

the National Eisteddfod's benefit.

0:24:280:24:30

I think that is something the Eisteddfod

0:24:300:24:33

and the organisers should be aware of.

0:24:330:24:36

Despite the joy of being on the Maes late at night the local villages

0:24:360:24:41

and people should benefit from that legacy in their communities.

0:24:410:24:46

That is a fair point.

0:24:460:24:47

Angharad, as another keen Eisteddfod-goer, that is a point.

0:24:470:24:50

People nowadays tend to, as Gwenllian suggests, stay on the Maes

0:24:500:24:54

and don't possibly visit the nearby communities.

0:24:540:24:59

I do think that the Eisteddfod has benefited and still benefits

0:24:590:25:04

the Vale of Glamorgan where the Eisteddfod was held last year.

0:25:040:25:07

I was on the committee so I can talk from personal experience.

0:25:070:25:10

If it was centralised how an earth would you inspire,

0:25:100:25:14

for example, non-Welsh speaking parents of the Flower Girls,

0:25:140:25:18

all of the non-Welsh speaking stewards as well as the people

0:25:180:25:23

who don't speak Welsh but who donated huge amounts of money

0:25:230:25:26

towards the Eisteddfod if the festival is miles away?

0:25:260:25:32

That would be impossible.

0:25:320:25:34

Centralising the Eisteddfod would not only shrink the festival,

0:25:340:25:39

the language and the culture,

0:25:390:25:41

but would make sure that the Welsh language and culture

0:25:410:25:45

wouldn't be seen in more Anglicised areas like the Vale of Glamorgan.

0:25:450:25:50

I'd like to ask what an earth is the Welsh Government motive?

0:25:500:25:56

The Education Minister Leighton Andrews has set up this taskforce.

0:25:560:26:01

Doesn't an Education Minister have more to do to look after

0:26:010:26:06

the education of this country and make sure our children

0:26:060:26:09

get the right education, rather than messing around

0:26:090:26:11

with a successful and flourishing festival.

0:26:110:26:14

But he's also the minister for language

0:26:170:26:20

and that's part of the Government's expenditure on language

0:26:200:26:23

and as a result he has to consider if the money's spent wisely.

0:26:230:26:28

But the Government spends a lot of money on other festivals.

0:26:280:26:31

Why not establish a taskforce to every one of them?

0:26:310:26:34

Answer that Alun Davies.

0:26:340:26:35

We're cooperating with the Eisteddfod

0:26:350:26:37

to make secure its future.

0:26:370:26:40

I think the Welsh Government is responsible in that matter.

0:26:400:26:42

I'm shocked anyone would suggest otherwise.

0:26:420:26:45

But am I right in saying the Eisteddfod receives 15%

0:26:450:26:47

from the Government coffers which proves it is successful as it is?

0:26:470:26:53

Nobody's said it isn't successful.

0:26:530:26:56

People want it to be successful in the future too.

0:26:560:26:59

The grants we get, the total amount of grants we receive,

0:26:590:27:03

from central government and local government, totals about 22%.

0:27:030:27:07

The rest we have to find ourselves.

0:27:070:27:10

Does the Eisteddfod group sigh when they hear

0:27:110:27:15

-there's another review on the Eisteddfod?

-Yes, rather.

0:27:150:27:18

I've been working for the Eisteddfod now, this is my 20th year,

0:27:180:27:22

and we've had several reviews during that time.

0:27:220:27:26

Every one have concluded with the same message

0:27:260:27:29

for the Assembly Government, they are getting their money's worth.

0:27:290:27:34

Yet again, we've faced cuts.

0:27:340:27:38

Glyn Davies, do you go to the Eisteddfod?

0:27:380:27:41

No, but I like it.

0:27:410:27:43

I am a traditional man and it is traditional to see

0:27:430:27:47

the Eisteddfod travelling all over Wales.

0:27:470:27:51

That's the way I feel.

0:27:510:27:54

But there is a question of cost, whether it costs too much.

0:27:540:27:59

I remember when holding the National Eisteddfod at Builth Wells

0:27:590:28:04

every year was considered, on the Royal Welsh Showground.

0:28:040:28:08

I remember talking about that.

0:28:080:28:09

The talks lasted six moths and then it was decided the Eisteddfod

0:28:090:28:13

had been travelling around Wales

0:28:130:28:15

and if we stop that, people would turn against it

0:28:150:28:18

and it wouldn't help the Welsh language as it does now.

0:28:180:28:21

I want it to carry on like that.

0:28:210:28:23

If the taskforce recommends something like this,

0:28:230:28:26

two permanent sites but it also travels every other year.

0:28:260:28:30

What would your response be? Hywel.

0:28:320:28:34

I'd still say we should be travelling.

0:28:340:28:38

-Angharad?

-Write to the taskforce.

0:28:380:28:41

You've got until the end of March to say you want it to travel.

0:28:410:28:45

-Alun Davies?

-I want the Eisteddfod to be a success for my children.

0:28:450:28:48

I'm ready to back any step that will secure that.

0:28:480:28:52

-That's what the people of Wales want us to do.

-Thank you.

0:28:520:28:57

Let's move on to the next question that's asked by Emyr Jones.

0:28:570:28:59

What's your question?

0:28:590:29:02

Why is the government wasting so much time

0:29:020:29:05

discussing a measure to give gay couples the right to marry?

0:29:050:29:09

Why is the government wasting so much time discussing a measure

0:29:090:29:14

to give gay couples the right to marry?

0:29:140:29:16

Glyn Davies. You voted against this, if I remember.

0:29:160:29:21

Yes.

0:29:210:29:23

I agree with the question. I didn't want to see this.

0:29:230:29:29

-Wasting time?

-That's what I think.

0:29:290:29:32

But we have to remember that many people throughout Britain

0:29:320:29:36

think this is an important matter.

0:29:360:29:38

In Westminster this week, MPs wanted to take part in this debate

0:29:380:29:45

more than any other I've seen in a while. It's important...

0:29:450:29:51

How can you say they wasted time?

0:29:510:29:54

-So many wanted to contribute.

-That's what I think.

0:29:540:29:57

I want to see the government concentrating on the economy

0:30:000:30:03

and more important things. But I am in a minority, that is the point.

0:30:030:30:07

Most people feel different, and after a vote

0:30:070:30:10

we have to redefine the word "marriage" but I also have to

0:30:100:30:15

say that most people disagree with me, and I am in a minority.

0:30:150:30:20

So apart from this idea of wasting time,

0:30:200:30:24

why were you against the measure essentially?

0:30:240:30:26

I think...

0:30:260:30:31

I'm not ready to redefine the word marriage.

0:30:310:30:34

It has meant something to people over the centuries...

0:30:340:30:38

What is that? A man and wife?

0:30:380:30:42

That's it.

0:30:420:30:43

And those boundaries cannot be extended?

0:30:430:30:46

If it becomes law, it changes the meaning of the word,

0:30:460:30:54

and I don't support that.

0:30:540:30:56

But most people disagree with me.

0:30:560:30:58

Why did you ask the question, Emyr Jones?

0:30:580:31:00

I think it's a complete waste of time.

0:31:000:31:04

I don't care what they want to.

0:31:040:31:06

If two men or women want to live together, I couldn't give two hoots.

0:31:060:31:09

But when it becomes important enough for the government to waste

0:31:090:31:13

such a lot of time on, that are more important things.

0:31:130:31:16

Yes, too many other things. Did I see somebody else's hand?

0:31:160:31:20

Let's go over to Angharad Mair.

0:31:200:31:23

I read an interesting article in the paper last week

0:31:230:31:26

written by former Tory MP Matthew Parris, who is himself gay,

0:31:260:31:30

discussing the four former Tory MPs back in 1966, who are still alive,

0:31:300:31:36

and who voted against the right for gay people to have relationships,

0:31:360:31:42

and he said that time had now proved that they had made an awful mistake.

0:31:420:31:47

I also believe that Glyn Davies, and others who voted the same way

0:31:470:31:50

as him, will come to realise very soon that they have

0:31:500:31:53

civilised society in the 21st-century a bad turn.

0:31:530:31:59

Several people have talked about the sanctity of marriage.

0:31:590:32:04

Yet on the other hand,

0:32:040:32:06

more people get divorced in Britain than in any other European country.

0:32:060:32:10

32 percent of Welsh people in the last census said

0:32:100:32:13

they had no religion.

0:32:130:32:15

I watched CF99 last night,

0:32:150:32:19

and MP Jonathan Edwards suggested that some of the Tory MPs

0:32:190:32:23

from Wales had been influenced by the party in Wales to vote as they did.

0:32:230:32:31

If that is true, I think all of us have to ask the question,

0:32:310:32:33

and to think about the fact -

0:32:330:32:34

if we want to be part of a civilised society that shows tolerance

0:32:370:32:43

and equality, what on earth is wrong with letting two

0:32:430:32:48

adults in a marriage to be partners in a loving relationship?

0:32:480:32:55

Nothing. I'm glad... I'm glad that the debate has happened,

0:32:550:33:00

because sometimes even though the economy is important,

0:33:000:33:03

and all kinds of other things - sometimes,

0:33:030:33:05

it is important to change society.

0:33:050:33:06

Perhaps Glyn Davies was reflecting the opinion of the people

0:33:060:33:10

of Montgomeryshire.

0:33:100:33:11

He had his finger on the pulse of the Montgomeryshire people.

0:33:110:33:15

I have to say, it is my opinion.

0:33:150:33:17

Before I was elected to be an MP, people asked me the question, and

0:33:170:33:21

I replied, I'm not happy to redefine the meaning of the word marriage.

0:33:210:33:25

That was my opinion before I was elected, and I still stick to that.

0:33:250:33:30

People in Montgomeryshire agree with me, and if I didn't do

0:33:300:33:34

that by which go against what I had said, and I'm not ready to do that.

0:33:340:33:38

There are some hands up in the audience. How about it?

0:33:380:33:41

It's an interesting subject.

0:33:410:33:43

On the one hand, the law of the land is going to catch up with real life.

0:33:430:33:47

People are living like this,

0:33:490:33:51

we have to acknowledge that we're not living at the beginning

0:33:510:33:55

of the 20th century,

0:33:550:33:56

and that we have to go further in order to disengage from tradition.

0:33:580:34:01

What part do religion and government have to play?

0:34:040:34:07

They have to be separated completely,

0:34:090:34:11

so that people like me, who say that we have no religion... Why is it

0:34:110:34:15

still part of schools curriculum

0:34:170:34:19

that we have two have religious education

0:34:190:34:21

completely exactly in the same way as we separate old

0:34:210:34:25

morality from the way people can live today?

0:34:250:34:28

So you are very glad that David Cameron pushed this measure ahead?

0:34:280:34:32

I was very surprised that Tories would say such a thing,

0:34:330:34:37

and that's why I think that what they're doing

0:34:370:34:40

is catching up with reality.

0:34:400:34:42

They are about six years behind the times, but nevertheless...

0:34:420:34:45

OK. You here.

0:34:450:34:50

I agree with Mr Glyn Davies.

0:34:500:34:53

I feel that marriage between a man and a woman,

0:34:540:34:58

is to bring up a family,

0:34:580:35:00

with a mother and a father and everything else.

0:35:000:35:03

I agree with civil partnerships, and when you say that equality

0:35:030:35:07

is there, well, they have it in a civil partnership.

0:35:070:35:10

Everything that a husband and wife have.

0:35:100:35:13

So why do they want to get married? I don't understand it.

0:35:130:35:16

And it's a slippery slope.

0:35:160:35:18

When we start to say civil partnerships, that's the end of it.

0:35:180:35:22

But oh no, it goes further. What will be next?

0:35:220:35:25

The churches and everybody else doing it.

0:35:250:35:28

Soon men will be able to have two or three wives.

0:35:280:35:31

Well, civil rights... And it'll go on to Europe,

0:35:310:35:36

the churches will have to do it and all.

0:35:360:35:38

Very quickly, why do you object from going from civil

0:35:380:35:41

partnership to the word marriage?

0:35:410:35:44

Because marriage means a man and a woman, a husband and wife,

0:35:440:35:48

and in our services, we say husband and wife.

0:35:480:35:51

What are you going to call two men? A husband and wife?

0:35:510:35:54

What words will you use? Partner, perhaps?

0:35:540:35:59

But partner means something very different.

0:35:590:36:01

Thank you very much. Up here?

0:36:010:36:04

There was a lot of talk during the debate about human rights.

0:36:040:36:09

But to me, marriage is a matter of the rights of children.

0:36:090:36:14

The purpose of marriage essentially is to protect children.

0:36:140:36:18

We live in a country which is not concerned enough about children.

0:36:180:36:24

Children's rights have been eroded, because we've devalued marriage.

0:36:240:36:32

We are celebrating our gold wedding this year,

0:36:330:36:39

I really appreciate the idea of marriage.

0:36:390:36:42

Thank you. Congratulations. Yes?

0:36:440:36:46

I think the only reason why we're talking about this tonight

0:36:460:36:50

is that the Tories and David Cameron are so desperate for votes,

0:36:500:36:54

this hides the fact that the economy is a mess,

0:36:540:36:57

and I think I have twigged,

0:36:570:36:59

there are people here who perhaps haven't been

0:36:590:37:01

affected by the recession, and this is going to please them,

0:37:010:37:04

and they're going to get their votes in the next election.

0:37:040:37:08

That's the only reason they've brought this up.

0:37:080:37:11

A fair point, but there is a Tory councillor sitting in front of you.

0:37:110:37:16

Tonight I agree with Angharad.

0:37:160:37:19

The churches and chapels should be more worried about the fact

0:37:190:37:23

that half our children are born outside of wedlock these days.

0:37:230:37:26

We should be more concerned about that than being

0:37:260:37:29

concerned about what's being asked in Westminster this week.

0:37:290:37:33

Hywel Wyn Edwards?

0:37:330:37:35

The question was, why are we wasting so much time on this?

0:37:350:37:39

And I would say, yes - it is a waste of time, really.

0:37:390:37:42

There are far more important things that the government should be

0:37:420:37:45

addressing rather than this particular matter.

0:37:450:37:48

At the end of the day, it's not such a crucially important matter.

0:37:480:37:52

So you agree with him?

0:37:520:37:54

No, not really.

0:37:540:37:56

I wouldn't have voted against him, because I think he's right,

0:37:560:37:59

whatever happens, that the individual should have that choice.

0:37:590:38:02

Angharad talked about divorce.

0:38:020:38:04

The plain truth is that marriage in fact... There are fewer people

0:38:040:38:10

getting married these days than for many many years.

0:38:100:38:14

My concern is that once this right is introduced,

0:38:140:38:19

how many gay couples will actually want to get married?

0:38:190:38:24

I doubt if people will rush into this.

0:38:240:38:27

But they are entitled to the right to do so.

0:38:270:38:31

The right to do so is fine.

0:38:310:38:33

But why waste all this time to discuss this one matter?

0:38:330:38:36

Do you agree, Alun?

0:38:360:38:38

No, I'm proud of this vote.

0:38:380:38:40

I think it's incredibly important to acknowledge everybody's right

0:38:400:38:44

to love and to marry whoever we so choose.

0:38:440:38:47

It's very important indeed.

0:38:470:38:50

I think it's very disappointing that the Tory party has

0:38:500:38:53

turned its back on today's society in the way that it has,

0:38:530:38:57

and also to discover that you have a British government

0:38:570:39:01

who does not realise that the Church in Wales is not

0:39:010:39:04

part of the Church of England, which, to me, is incredible.

0:39:040:39:07

So it is very important that this vote does not just reflect

0:39:070:39:11

a vote in parliament this week, but also reflects the way that

0:39:110:39:15

society is changing and will be changing in the future.

0:39:150:39:18

I think we have a better society

0:39:180:39:20

because of what happened this week, then we were last week.

0:39:200:39:24

Let's leave that subject there. Thank you for your contributions.

0:39:240:39:27

Let's go to our last break.

0:39:270:39:28

Join us again in Welshpool after the adverts.

0:39:280:39:30

Welcome back.

0:39:460:39:48

You're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn in Welshpool.

0:39:480:39:53

We've now reached the topic that are mentioned at the beginning

0:39:530:39:55

of the programme.

0:39:550:39:56

A question from Miriam Hollard. what's your question?

0:39:560:40:00

It's disgusting that the Welsh government is not protecting

0:40:000:40:05

our communities from the schemes to build pylons in mid Wales.

0:40:050:40:10

We are facing a second Tryweryn in this area.

0:40:100:40:13

Thank you. That's been said before on Pawb a'i Farn.

0:40:130:40:16

It's disgusting that the government of Wales is not protecting

0:40:160:40:19

our communities from the schemes to build pylons in mid Wales.

0:40:190:40:23

We are facing a second Tryweryn in this area.

0:40:230:40:28

Angharad Mair how would you answer this?

0:40:280:40:30

There are certainly good reasons why it's possible to compare

0:40:300:40:34

the Tryweryn disaster with the windmills

0:40:340:40:37

which are desecrating our land at this moment.

0:40:370:40:40

There are two truly important reasons

0:40:400:40:42

why we should fight these with one voice.

0:40:420:40:44

The first is that that is a very real danger, as English councils

0:40:440:40:48

refuse them, that they will take advantage of Wales, and there

0:40:480:40:52

will be more of them here, but the second reason is the most important.

0:40:520:40:57

Wales gets very little economic benefit from all of these windmills.

0:40:570:41:04

Take the wind farm that's been in the news today -

0:41:040:41:07

Mynydd y Gwair by Swansea. Who owns the land?

0:41:070:41:09

The Duke of Beaufort, one of England's richest landowners.

0:41:090:41:15

Who's constructing the windmills? A major international company.

0:41:150:41:20

Why are they joining forces to do that in Swansea?

0:41:200:41:23

Because they going to make a fortune.

0:41:230:41:26

We're paying £500 million every year in grants for people to

0:41:260:41:31

construct wind farms in Wales, but they don't live in Wales,

0:41:310:41:35

they don't live close to us, and they don't have two suffer

0:41:350:41:37

having their land and their heritage stolen from them.

0:41:370:41:41

But we need electricity from somewhere. These will supply it.

0:41:410:41:44

Take somewhere like Germany, where 60 percent of windmills belong

0:41:440:41:49

to the people, to the communities where they are built.

0:41:490:41:53

The tax the big companies have to pay goes to those communities,

0:41:530:41:56

so this economic benefit.

0:41:560:41:59

But our problem is that back in 2005

0:41:590:42:02

when Carwyn Jones as Minister of Energy at that time,

0:42:020:42:05

established Tan 8, that wasn't scrutinised in enough detail,

0:42:050:42:09

and what is happening now is that it's easy for the English

0:42:090:42:12

government to take advantage of this, and we're being walked over,

0:42:120:42:15

as happened in Capel Celyn 50 years ago - it's happening again today.

0:42:150:42:20

Thanks. Over to Alun Davies. The policy wasn't considered enough.

0:42:200:42:26

I think it's important that this policy is decentralised,

0:42:260:42:29

and that we make these decisions

0:42:290:42:30

wherever these proposals are in Wales.

0:42:300:42:34

I think it's very important that we make these decisions in Wales

0:42:340:42:38

and we as a government have asked the government in Westminster

0:42:380:42:41

to decentralise these powers several times.

0:42:410:42:46

Can I ask why - Labour were in power in Westminster for 13 years.

0:42:460:42:51

Why wasn't it decentralised then?

0:42:510:42:52

I have already said, we have said several times,

0:42:520:42:55

and when I was a backbencher, as suggested that we decentralise

0:42:550:43:00

these powers when Labour was in power,

0:43:000:43:03

and we have done so several times, and I hope that we will see that.

0:43:030:43:07

With regards to the pylons, and the wind farms, are you for them

0:43:070:43:10

or against them?

0:43:100:43:12

I want to see... I am in favour of wind power.

0:43:120:43:15

I'm not against it at all.

0:43:150:43:19

I have launched a consultation about the rural development

0:43:190:43:24

scheme during these last few weeks,

0:43:240:43:26

and I want to see how we can develop sustainable local

0:43:260:43:29

energy for communities, especially in rural Wales.

0:43:290:43:32

But the point is, it's very important that we

0:43:320:43:35

profit from that, and that we as Welsh local communities can

0:43:350:43:40

control the kinds of developments that we're seeing.

0:43:400:43:43

Thank you very much. Glyn?

0:43:460:43:49

The only reason that the Welsh government wants to have power

0:43:490:43:54

over this subject is to destroy mid-Wales. That's the only reason.

0:43:540:43:58

The Tan 8 policy came out.

0:43:580:44:01

What they wanted to is to put these turbines and a line to Shrewsbury

0:44:010:44:06

will come with it, and it will destroy mid-Wales.

0:44:060:44:08

That's the reason why... I was ready to support seeing the powers

0:44:080:44:14

being given to the assembly before Tan 8 came.

0:44:140:44:18

After that, I would sooner die than support seeing this power

0:44:180:44:22

being given to the assembly, to destroy mid-Wales.

0:44:220:44:25

That's what the policy of the Welsh government is.

0:44:250:44:27

There is a chance to stop it in Westminster.

0:44:270:44:30

That is absolute nonsense.

0:44:300:44:32

Tan 8 will ensure that you don't have windmills everywhere.

0:44:320:44:37

It will happen in specified places.

0:44:370:44:40

And there will be limits on the number of developments.

0:44:400:44:46

That's what Tan 8 is about. But I think that has been misunderstood.

0:44:460:44:49

But there is no limit on fuel. Only on areas.

0:44:490:44:53

Just a second. Let's hear from the audience.

0:44:530:44:56

Gwern, in the back? From Llanfair Caereinion school?

0:44:560:45:01

My family have lived in Montgomeryshire for centuries.

0:45:010:45:05

To think that the serenity,

0:45:060:45:09

of the valley, is to be destroyed by these massive pylons.

0:45:090:45:17

Massive.

0:45:170:45:19

They're just going to come through the valley,

0:45:190:45:22

and apparently, the windmills

0:45:220:45:25

as well, they've been one of the biggest models they have ever been.

0:45:250:45:30

With these pylons, they're apparently bad for your health and everything.

0:45:300:45:38

Thank you very much. Yes, your hand is up?

0:45:410:45:43

This subject often comes up, because at one level it is very important.

0:45:430:45:49

What I think is surprising,

0:45:490:45:53

is that we're still talking as if it's a choice between this and what?

0:45:530:45:58

We've got to have power.

0:45:580:46:01

I want to see a huge social experiment to see what works.

0:46:010:46:06

I don't think the existing framework which means that money is

0:46:060:46:09

poured into the pockets of individuals is a good one,

0:46:090:46:13

but we need an experiment,

0:46:130:46:14

and we also need to ask the question -

0:46:140:46:17

we all use electricity in this area,

0:46:170:46:19

if Gwern wants to protect the valley, fair enough in principle,

0:46:190:46:22

but if we have two have, for example,

0:46:220:46:24

a second Drax - Drax is an enormous place, burning coal.

0:46:240:46:28

If we need a second Drax, where will it go?

0:46:280:46:32

Not in Montgomeryshire, I presume! How about it?

0:46:320:46:36

I know why they chose this earlier, because the Labour government

0:46:360:46:41

wasn't going to lose votes in Montgomeryshire.

0:46:410:46:46

Do you think they were that cynical?

0:46:460:46:49

It's no different to what happens in Westminster, is it?

0:46:490:46:54

But the fact is that the windmills are not going to make the money back.

0:46:540:47:02

We hear that they don't last very long these days.

0:47:020:47:07

Of the windmills that was put up a year and a half ago,

0:47:070:47:13

Two of them have had their blades broken off in six months.

0:47:130:47:20

Hywel, let's hear from you.

0:47:200:47:22

In my office in Mold I look out on a rather large pylon.

0:47:220:47:27

It's not a very nice thing to look at all day.

0:47:270:47:31

And I'm sure that all of you would agree, you wouldn't want to

0:47:310:47:35

look at those out of your lounge window at any time.

0:47:350:47:40

Having said that, the pylons carry power.

0:47:400:47:44

The people of Snowdonia have been used to them for decades.

0:47:440:47:47

Not everywhere. And why should we have to get used to them?

0:47:470:47:52

If you go to England, you don't see many of these.

0:47:520:47:56

If you travel around the country as I do, I travel quite a lot,

0:47:560:48:01

though not on the A470 - I go the other way through England.

0:48:010:48:05

You don't see the pylons. Where are they? They're still carrying power.

0:48:050:48:09

They've been buried underground. Why can't we do that?

0:48:090:48:13

With that question, we must finish tonight's programme.

0:48:130:48:19

You can continue this discussion for another hour,

0:48:190:48:21

but before that, we must say goodbye to the audience at home.

0:48:210:48:24

Thank you all of you. Next week, we will be in Cardiff Bay. Goodbye.

0:48:240:48:28

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