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On our panel tonight, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
The Deputy Agriculture Minister in the Assembly, Alun Davies. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:34 | |
The journalist and editor of Heno, Angharad Mair. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:38 | |
The organiser of the National Eisteddfod, Hywel Wyn Edwards. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
Please welcome them. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:43 | |
Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn. | 0:00:56 | 0:01:01 | |
I hope you're ready for another hour of discussion and debate here on S4C. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
Once again we've been attracted back to northern Powys. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
We're here in Welshpool leisure centre with an audience | 0:01:07 | 0:01:11 | |
from all over the former county of Montgomeryshire. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
The last time we were here the hot topic was wind turbines, | 0:01:15 | 0:01:19 | |
let's see if it's still the same. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
Next week, we'll be in Cardiff with a group of young people. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:27 | |
You're welcome to come as long as you're young. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
But tonight the people of Powys of all ages can have their say. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
Let's have our first question asked by Glyn Williams. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:38 | |
Glyn Williams what's your question? | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
The Westminster Government has decided to cull badgers | 0:01:40 | 0:01:44 | |
in specific areas. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:46 | |
Remembering that a lot of cattle are destroyed in Wales due to TB, | 0:01:46 | 0:01:52 | |
shouldn't the Welsh Government reconsider the vaccination policy? | 0:01:52 | 0:01:59 | |
Many thanks, Glyn. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:00 | |
The Westminster Government has decided to cull badgers | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
in specific areas. Remembering that cattle in Wales | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
are being destroyed due to TB, | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
shouldn't the Welsh Government reconsider the vaccination policy?? | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
Let's start with a member of the Government, Alun Davies. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
What about it? | 0:02:17 | 0:02:18 | |
Wales is the only country in Britain where there is a policy | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
to prevent TB in wildlife. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
You're right to say in what's happened in England. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:31 | |
But they haven't had cases in England. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
I think what farmers in Wales want is to see the Government | 0:02:33 | 0:02:38 | |
taking action and the Government has taken action. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
1,400 badgers have been vaccinated during the summer. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:47 | |
The programme will re-start in the next few months. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
We all know this is going to be a problem for years to come | 0:02:50 | 0:02:55 | |
but the decision has been made by the Welsh Government | 0:02:55 | 0:02:59 | |
and by the Welsh Assembly | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
and I think it's now time to move on with a policy. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
I know the policy isn't popular amongst a lot of farmers. | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
They haven't been convinced that it works. | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
It is supported by the Assembly and, I think, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:17 | |
the majority of people in Wales. That's where we're at. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:22 | |
I know it's not popular in the agricultural community. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
You're predicting an unpopular response here. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
We've been here before. But I do think... | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
But the farmers opinion doesn't convince you? | 0:03:33 | 0:03:38 | |
The time for discussion has passed. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
It's time to move on and act on the policies that we have | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
and I am confident this policy will succeed. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
Can I ask a few questions about that. How long will this experiment last? | 0:03:48 | 0:03:53 | |
How can you say if it's been successful? | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
It's going to last for five years and we are considering, | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
and there was a statement on this in the Assembly | 0:04:00 | 0:04:04 | |
less than a month ago, at looking | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
to eradicate TB in cattle in Wales. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:14 | |
We know that Welsh farmers have worked very hard | 0:04:14 | 0:04:17 | |
when it comes to safeguarding animals. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
I'm very grateful to a lot of people who have worked extremely hard | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
to make sure that's happening. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
With our policy for wildlife and with security, | 0:04:27 | 0:04:34 | |
I hope we can eradicate TB. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
A full answer. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:39 | |
Have you been convinced as a farmer yourself, Glyn Davies? | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
I've heard a lot from the farmers. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
What I think is important is to get evidence | 0:04:44 | 0:04:48 | |
if culling badgers will have an affect. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
That's why we have to have a pilot scheme. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
When the Welsh Government went down that route, Elin Jones | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
was the minister then, and she wanted a pilot in Pembrokeshire. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
I supported what she said | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
but now we've got these two pilot schemes in England this year. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:10 | |
To be honest, it doesn't matter what the government does in Wales, | 0:05:12 | 0:05:17 | |
we need to find out if culling badgers will work. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:22 | |
If it does work, it will be implemented right through Britain. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
But that doesn't happen. They've gone against that policy. | 0:05:27 | 0:05:31 | |
I have to say, Dewi, it wasn't going to be rolled out before October. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:38 | |
It couldn't happen after October. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:40 | |
The minister Owen Paterson from Shrewsbury... | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
-But that's in England. -..it will roll out in the summer. | 0:05:43 | 0:05:47 | |
You hope that the Westminster Government policy | 0:05:47 | 0:05:52 | |
will influence people like Alun Davies. | 0:05:52 | 0:05:55 | |
Only if it's successful. That's what I expect. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:58 | |
See if the pilot schemes are successful and having an affect, | 0:05:58 | 0:06:02 | |
and then I'm sure the Welsh Government will do the same. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:05 | |
-Are you ready to listen? -Of course. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:08 | |
We are already co-operating with DEFRA and the European Commission. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:12 | |
Of course people are willing to learn from each other. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
I hope that if the vaccinating pilot scheme we have in Wales works, | 0:06:16 | 0:06:21 | |
DEFRA will listen to what we've got to say. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
I have to say from my experience of cooperating with DEFRA, | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
-they do tend to listen. -Angharad Mair. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:29 | |
If only the Welsh Language had the same status as the badgers | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
to have all Governmental power to protect it. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:37 | |
Badgers are a plague. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
If there was a plague of rats hit Welshpool this evening | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
they will have been destroyed by the morning. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
It costs £30 million a year for us to compensate the farmers | 0:06:51 | 0:06:58 | |
because of the badgers. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
Last year in a speech, | 0:07:01 | 0:07:03 | |
Alun Davies here suggested that it would be impossible for anyone | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
to be elected to the Assembly if he stood against culling badgers. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:12 | |
Well, if you believe the contrary, | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
make sure you vote for a party who are willing to cull badgers | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
and show that Alun Davies and Labour are wrong. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
You can answer that, Alun. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:30 | |
People had the opportunity to do that two years ago... | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
If I can follow that point, the rural, agriculture vote | 0:07:32 | 0:07:37 | |
isn't important to you? | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
All your votes come from the urban areas? | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
With due respect, that's not what she said. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
We do live in a democratic country. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
We have, we had an Assembly election in May two years ago. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
I think if there was a free vote in the Assembly today | 0:07:52 | 0:07:56 | |
the Assembly would vote against the policy of culling. | 0:07:56 | 0:07:59 | |
That's what I'm hearing from people from all parties. | 0:07:59 | 0:08:02 | |
In every party there are people of culling badgers, | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
and people against culling badgers. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
I don't think it's a party issue. | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
But it is important, as Glyn has said, we do have that pilot, | 0:08:10 | 0:08:15 | |
we do see what happens in Pembrokeshire. | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
I've heard some good things up until now. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:20 | |
If it does succeeded, I think the agriculture industry | 0:08:20 | 0:08:24 | |
will join us and support vaccinating in every part of Wales. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
Hywel, what do you think? | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
In the first place, | 0:08:30 | 0:08:32 | |
I don't think I feel comfortable in killing any kind of animal. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:36 | |
But saying that I can see the problem. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:39 | |
The previous government in the Assembly had said | 0:08:39 | 0:08:44 | |
they would go at it to cull badgers | 0:08:44 | 0:08:48 | |
in one area in Wales, Pembrokeshire. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:52 | |
But that changed following the last election. | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
In England, they've decided to use different tactics. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
They're going to use two pilot areas, Somerset and Worcestershire. | 0:09:05 | 0:09:12 | |
What I wonder is why can't we do a similar thing? | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
There isn't going to be one answer. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
Alun says the Government has vaccinated 1,400 badgers. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:26 | |
How many badgers are there? | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
I'm sure that a very small percentage have been vaccinated. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:33 | |
It seems they're like rabbits, and we know what rabbits are like! | 0:09:33 | 0:09:37 | |
Well, there are even higher numbers adding to the problem. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:45 | |
Why couldn't we continue with the vaccination project in one area, | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
such as Pembrokeshire, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
and maybe in this area in Powys which is also a badger stronghold. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:57 | |
Maybe we should have a culling scheme, a bit of both maybe. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:02 | |
Let's ask some farmers in the audience. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
I'll come back to you, Glyn, seeing you asked the question. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
What concerns me is we've heard this is a five year project. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
How many cattle are going to die in that time? | 0:10:13 | 0:10:18 | |
It's such a shame going onto a farm and seeing families of cows | 0:10:18 | 0:10:24 | |
being lost for ever. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
After years and years of breeding they're all gone. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:31 | |
Vaccinations don't help the farmer at all. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:37 | |
You're willing to kill the cattle but how about tackling the badgers? | 0:10:37 | 0:10:44 | |
You can come back. You're welcome to applaud. Aled Davies. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
It costs about £600, £700 to vaccinate every badger. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:53 | |
You have to do it again and again, year after year. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
-Are those figures correct? -That's only a small patch of Wales. | 0:10:56 | 0:10:59 | |
How much would it cost to do the whole country? | 0:10:59 | 0:11:03 | |
I think the ministers in the Assembly need to be vaccinated | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
with a huge dose of common sense. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
Can I have the microphone here. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
Those figures were in the Farmers' Weekly this week. It costs £662. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
I live on a farm and it's not just TB. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:21 | |
They destroy the land, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
they eat the worms which benefit the land and the crops. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
I see many of them every day. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
It's as much a problem here as it is in Pembrokeshire? In the back. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:34 | |
There was an article in the Daily Mail yesterday saying | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
badgers needed to be tackled immediately. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
One of the reasons for that is how the badgers effect | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
other animals in the countryside. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
There used to be 36 million foxes in this country in the 1950s and 1960s. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:53 | |
There's less than a million now. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
On top of that, badgers eat the eggs of birds that nest on the ground. | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
I don't know if you've got five years for this vaccination project. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:07 | |
-Something needs to be done now. -You need immediate action. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
Let's go to this row. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
The problem you have now is the strain the farmer is under. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:18 | |
They get the cattle ready in 60 days to test. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
If it's inconclusive you have to do it again. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
It goes on for months and months. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:29 | |
All the stock that's destroyed. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
It plays on people's minds. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:33 | |
That's the biggest problem. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
It gets worse in Montgomeryshire every day. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
One of my friends who lives two miles from Welshpool, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:46 | |
they've found TB. | 0:12:46 | 0:12:47 | |
-You don't think that is fast enough? -No. -Behind you, Emyr Jones. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
I think it's too late. | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
What I'm afraid of is, | 0:12:54 | 0:12:56 | |
many of these farmers who have lost their stock will have enough, | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
as they say 60 days comes round so quickly, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
they're not going to keep cattle any more. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
We'll soon see that cattle are not being kept in Wales. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
People will have enough. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:09 | |
Are farmers doing enough to protect their cows and stop TB themselves? | 0:13:09 | 0:13:14 | |
What can they do? They can't do any more. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:18 | |
You can go onto a farm | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
and see the badgers have been there the night before. | 0:13:21 | 0:13:25 | |
You can't keep cattle in cages. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:28 | |
-Yes, back to you. -We can't do anything. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:31 | |
If you put up fences, they burrow underneath. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
We can't stop them. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
Robin Benbo in the back row. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
I've stopped keeping cattle because of that reason. There were problems. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:43 | |
We have to remember that people need food | 0:13:43 | 0:13:46 | |
and we're ready to bring in infected food from all over the world | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
with Tesco's burgers. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
But we're willing to destroy cattle here. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
Maybe we should start eating badgers. Maybe that's an answer. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:01 | |
-They'd be better than Tesco burgers. -You've stopped... | 0:14:01 | 0:14:05 | |
It was too much hard work with all the testing. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:10 | |
A government vet would come and tell me how I could keep the cows | 0:14:10 | 0:14:16 | |
and badgers separate from each other. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
How can you do that in a field? | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
If you can show us that we'll follow your rules. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:26 | |
-Can the minister answer that? -You can do that now. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
Answer that when you consider that five years is a long time. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
Of course it is. | 0:14:35 | 0:14:36 | |
Nobody, not even those who say culling badgers will have an impact, | 0:14:36 | 0:14:40 | |
can say it will have an impact in less than five years' time. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:44 | |
Nobody's arguing that, not even in England. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
It's fiction to believe | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
if you start culling badgers this year you'll get rid of TB this year. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:53 | |
Nobody believes that. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
Can I come back to safeguarding cattle, | 0:14:55 | 0:14:59 | |
it is an important question. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:00 | |
I think Welsh farmers do amazing work when it comes to do that. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
There is no way of stopping cattle going anywhere near badgers. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:10 | |
We all know and understand that. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
But we have to do the two things at the same time. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
We have to have the biosecurity | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
and respond to what's happening to wildlife too. We have to do both. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
A quick sentence from the other three. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | |
The problem is, I feel the same way. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:30 | |
I don't think vaccinating will work. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:32 | |
That's the reason why we have to have evidence. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
The government in Britain will have the pilot... | 0:15:36 | 0:15:40 | |
From my point of view, both governments have | 0:15:40 | 0:15:44 | |
the same evidence but have followed two different paths. Why? | 0:15:44 | 0:15:47 | |
At the moment there isn't any hard evidence that | 0:15:47 | 0:15:52 | |
badgers are having an effect. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
We have to have evidence | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
because those against the policy believe we need evidence. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:03 | |
That's happened in England. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
If the badger wasn't such a cute animal they'd be culled. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:10 | |
Common sense is needed here, they are a pest and nothing else | 0:16:10 | 0:16:15 | |
and they destroy hard work done by Welsh farmers. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
-Do they invade the Eisteddfod Maes, Hywel? -I don't think so. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
I haven't see any. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:28 | |
I was listening to Glyn earlier as he mentioned the cattle | 0:16:28 | 0:16:32 | |
being destroyed. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:33 | |
According to something I read recently 75,000 cattle | 0:16:33 | 0:16:39 | |
have been destroyed during the last ten years. 1,500 vaccinations... | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
There isn't any comparison. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
75,000 as this person mentioned... | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
We'll think about that during the advert. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
Join us in about two minutes from Welshpool. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:58 | |
Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Welshpool. | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
Let's now turn to a topic we haven't discussed for quite some time. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:23 | |
This question by Trefor Owen. What's your question? | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
Would the panel be in favour of holding | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
-the National Eisteddfod on two permanent sites? -Many thanks. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:35 | |
Trefor's seen who we've got on our panel this evening. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
Would the panel be in favour of holding | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
the National Eisteddfod on two permanent sites? | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
Well, we've got the biggest expert here to discuss that. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
Hywel Wyn Edwards, two permanent sites. Does that appeal? | 0:17:49 | 0:17:54 | |
No, but I've got more to say and I'm sure | 0:17:55 | 0:18:00 | |
we can talk about this from now until the next Pawb a'i Farn. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:05 | |
-I'll give you two minutes. -There we go. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
The Eisteddfod exists to protect the Welsh language | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
and to boost the culture. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
What we feel, or those of us who work in it feel, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
it's important the Eisteddfod visits parts of Wales | 0:18:17 | 0:18:23 | |
in order to do that kind of work right across the country rather than | 0:18:23 | 0:18:28 | |
placing it in one site or two sites. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
The problem then would be, where would those permanent sites be? | 0:18:30 | 0:18:35 | |
That would be a bigger hot potato than badgers. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
Wherever the Eisteddfod visits a lot of activity takes place | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
in that area. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
The Eisteddfod has just visited the Vale of Glamorgan | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
and Angharad was part of those activities. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:53 | |
More than 150 events took place in the Vale of Glamorgan region. | 0:18:53 | 0:18:58 | |
Before the Eisteddfod visited? | 0:18:58 | 0:19:00 | |
Before the Eisteddfod and in the lead up to it, | 0:19:00 | 0:19:02 | |
from two years before it was held. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:04 | |
That is a big number of events which are held in the Welsh language. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:10 | |
But do you have to go to a specific region to hold those events? | 0:19:10 | 0:19:15 | |
Couldn't it be like the Show, for example? | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
It's Gwynedd's turn this year and the events will be held there? | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
Maybe it's true about the Show but I don't think we'd have the | 0:19:24 | 0:19:29 | |
same response if that were to happen with the National Eisteddfod. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:33 | |
Can I jump in? We've talked about what happens before the Eisteddfod. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
Is there any evidence that it influences that specific area? | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
Legacy is always mentioned. Is that just myth? | 0:19:41 | 0:19:46 | |
No, no, not at all. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
If you go back many years, here in Montgomeryshire one of things | 0:19:50 | 0:19:55 | |
that stands out is Cwmni Theatr Maldwyn. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:59 | |
Cwmni Theatr Maldwyn | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
was started for the Machyhnlleth National Eisteddfod in 1981. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
That was the Maldwyn Eisteddfod. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:08 | |
So, all kinds of things like that start up | 0:20:08 | 0:20:12 | |
as a result of the Eisteddfod. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
Just this year, look at what's happened in Ebbw Vale | 0:20:14 | 0:20:17 | |
with Only Boys Aloud and so forth. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
We accept this is your argument. | 0:20:20 | 0:20:22 | |
You enjoy travelling and you want the Eisteddfod to continue moving. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
But we're in a different era these days when it comes to costs, | 0:20:25 | 0:20:29 | |
the economy, cuts. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:31 | |
Would this be a way of saving money by having two permanent sites? | 0:20:31 | 0:20:37 | |
Well, this comes to the surface time and again. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:42 | |
We have been discussing this internally. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
You'd need to buy a 300 acre sites in two areas. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:51 | |
You'd have to find somewhere close to a town and a road network, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
maybe with a railway close by. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
People's expectations are very high | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
so you'd have to put that infrastructure in. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
We estimate the cost of doing that for two sites, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:11 | |
are you sitting down, | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
in the region of £60 million. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:16 | |
That's a huge amount of money. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
The Welsh Government gives something in the region of £500,000. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:25 | |
You can work out the sum to make sure the Eisteddfod | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
can continue for years to come. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:31 | |
Alun Davies, does that idea appeal to you in an age of cuts? | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
On a personal level, no, it doesn't. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
I know Roy Noble is leading a group of people | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
who are looking into this and considering this. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
I look forward to reading their conclusions | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
after the Denbigh Eisteddfod later on in the year. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
Can I say this, I represent a constituency | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
where about five per cent of the people speak Welsh. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
I remember the impact the Eisteddfod had on Ebbw Vale. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:58 | |
It was the first time that many people in Ebbw Vale | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
and Tredegar got to hear Welsh on the streets. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
It was the first time they went onto the Maes. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
It is important to me that the Eisteddfod visits areas | 0:22:07 | 0:22:11 | |
like Blaenau Gwent and people get to be a part | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
of the Welsh speaking community. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
It is important for that the Eisteddfod continues to travel. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
But will the money be there to support the Eisteddfod? | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
It is difficult. I'm looking forward to hear what Roy Noble has to say. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
That report is expected in September. Trefor, you asked the question. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:36 | |
Are you in favour? | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
I admire what Hywel's just said. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
For years I have been agreeing with him. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:45 | |
I happen to be a member of the Eisteddfod Council | 0:22:47 | 0:22:52 | |
and the figures that we've received... | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
..of expenditure shocks a person. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
Truly, it shocks a person. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
The figures for holding the Eisteddfod? | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
A lot of that money is hidden, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
to prepare the site, we don't see it. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:16 | |
But Hywel gave you a shocking number to buy a permanent site. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:22 | |
I'd like to thank Hywel for all the hard work he's done over the years. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:29 | |
Thank you, Hywel. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
I hope he has a happy retirement. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
Oh, you've revealed something to the nation there. In the back row, Glyn. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
Should it travel or a permanent site? | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
I think it's important it continues to travel. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
But the question I've got is has it grown too big to reach | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
every part of Wales? | 0:23:51 | 0:23:53 | |
That is a cause for concern for me. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:55 | |
There are areas that would wish to host it but due to the Eisteddfod's | 0:23:57 | 0:24:02 | |
size, it's grown too big or that's the reason we're given. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:08 | |
Many thanks. Gwenllian in the front row. What do you think? | 0:24:08 | 0:24:12 | |
To me the Eisteddfod's legacy is all important | 0:24:12 | 0:24:15 | |
and the fact you get to enjoy visiting different areas of Wales. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:20 | |
But it's also important that the Eisteddfod doesn't concentrate | 0:24:20 | 0:24:23 | |
on events on the Maes in the evenings. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:25 | |
Nearby towns and villages should feel | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
the National Eisteddfod's benefit. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:30 | |
I think that is something the Eisteddfod | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
and the organisers should be aware of. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
Despite the joy of being on the Maes late at night the local villages | 0:24:36 | 0:24:41 | |
and people should benefit from that legacy in their communities. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:46 | |
That is a fair point. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:47 | |
Angharad, as another keen Eisteddfod-goer, that is a point. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
People nowadays tend to, as Gwenllian suggests, stay on the Maes | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
and don't possibly visit the nearby communities. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
I do think that the Eisteddfod has benefited and still benefits | 0:24:59 | 0:25:04 | |
the Vale of Glamorgan where the Eisteddfod was held last year. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
I was on the committee so I can talk from personal experience. | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
If it was centralised how an earth would you inspire, | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
for example, non-Welsh speaking parents of the Flower Girls, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
all of the non-Welsh speaking stewards as well as the people | 0:25:18 | 0:25:23 | |
who don't speak Welsh but who donated huge amounts of money | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
towards the Eisteddfod if the festival is miles away? | 0:25:26 | 0:25:32 | |
That would be impossible. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:34 | |
Centralising the Eisteddfod would not only shrink the festival, | 0:25:34 | 0:25:39 | |
the language and the culture, | 0:25:39 | 0:25:41 | |
but would make sure that the Welsh language and culture | 0:25:41 | 0:25:45 | |
wouldn't be seen in more Anglicised areas like the Vale of Glamorgan. | 0:25:45 | 0:25:50 | |
I'd like to ask what an earth is the Welsh Government motive? | 0:25:50 | 0:25:56 | |
The Education Minister Leighton Andrews has set up this taskforce. | 0:25:56 | 0:26:01 | |
Doesn't an Education Minister have more to do to look after | 0:26:01 | 0:26:06 | |
the education of this country and make sure our children | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
get the right education, rather than messing around | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
with a successful and flourishing festival. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
But he's also the minister for language | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
and that's part of the Government's expenditure on language | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
and as a result he has to consider if the money's spent wisely. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:28 | |
But the Government spends a lot of money on other festivals. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
Why not establish a taskforce to every one of them? | 0:26:31 | 0:26:34 | |
Answer that Alun Davies. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:35 | |
We're cooperating with the Eisteddfod | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
to make secure its future. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
I think the Welsh Government is responsible in that matter. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:42 | |
I'm shocked anyone would suggest otherwise. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
But am I right in saying the Eisteddfod receives 15% | 0:26:45 | 0:26:47 | |
from the Government coffers which proves it is successful as it is? | 0:26:47 | 0:26:53 | |
Nobody's said it isn't successful. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
People want it to be successful in the future too. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
The grants we get, the total amount of grants we receive, | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
from central government and local government, totals about 22%. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
The rest we have to find ourselves. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
Does the Eisteddfod group sigh when they hear | 0:27:11 | 0:27:15 | |
-there's another review on the Eisteddfod? -Yes, rather. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
I've been working for the Eisteddfod now, this is my 20th year, | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
and we've had several reviews during that time. | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
Every one have concluded with the same message | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
for the Assembly Government, they are getting their money's worth. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:34 | |
Yet again, we've faced cuts. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:38 | |
Glyn Davies, do you go to the Eisteddfod? | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
No, but I like it. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:43 | |
I am a traditional man and it is traditional to see | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
the Eisteddfod travelling all over Wales. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
That's the way I feel. | 0:27:51 | 0:27:54 | |
But there is a question of cost, whether it costs too much. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:59 | |
I remember when holding the National Eisteddfod at Builth Wells | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
every year was considered, on the Royal Welsh Showground. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
I remember talking about that. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:09 | |
The talks lasted six moths and then it was decided the Eisteddfod | 0:28:09 | 0:28:13 | |
had been travelling around Wales | 0:28:13 | 0:28:15 | |
and if we stop that, people would turn against it | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
and it wouldn't help the Welsh language as it does now. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
I want it to carry on like that. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:23 | |
If the taskforce recommends something like this, | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
two permanent sites but it also travels every other year. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
What would your response be? Hywel. | 0:28:32 | 0:28:34 | |
I'd still say we should be travelling. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
-Angharad? -Write to the taskforce. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
You've got until the end of March to say you want it to travel. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:45 | |
-Alun Davies? -I want the Eisteddfod to be a success for my children. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
I'm ready to back any step that will secure that. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:52 | |
-That's what the people of Wales want us to do. -Thank you. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:57 | |
Let's move on to the next question that's asked by Emyr Jones. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
What's your question? | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
Why is the government wasting so much time | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
discussing a measure to give gay couples the right to marry? | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
Why is the government wasting so much time discussing a measure | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
to give gay couples the right to marry? | 0:29:14 | 0:29:16 | |
Glyn Davies. You voted against this, if I remember. | 0:29:16 | 0:29:21 | |
Yes. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:23 | |
I agree with the question. I didn't want to see this. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:29 | |
-Wasting time? -That's what I think. | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
But we have to remember that many people throughout Britain | 0:29:32 | 0:29:36 | |
think this is an important matter. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:38 | |
In Westminster this week, MPs wanted to take part in this debate | 0:29:38 | 0:29:45 | |
more than any other I've seen in a while. It's important... | 0:29:45 | 0:29:51 | |
How can you say they wasted time? | 0:29:51 | 0:29:54 | |
-So many wanted to contribute. -That's what I think. | 0:29:54 | 0:29:57 | |
I want to see the government concentrating on the economy | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
and more important things. But I am in a minority, that is the point. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:07 | |
Most people feel different, and after a vote | 0:30:07 | 0:30:10 | |
we have to redefine the word "marriage" but I also have to | 0:30:10 | 0:30:15 | |
say that most people disagree with me, and I am in a minority. | 0:30:15 | 0:30:20 | |
So apart from this idea of wasting time, | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
why were you against the measure essentially? | 0:30:24 | 0:30:26 | |
I think... | 0:30:26 | 0:30:31 | |
I'm not ready to redefine the word marriage. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
It has meant something to people over the centuries... | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
What is that? A man and wife? | 0:30:38 | 0:30:42 | |
That's it. | 0:30:42 | 0:30:43 | |
And those boundaries cannot be extended? | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
If it becomes law, it changes the meaning of the word, | 0:30:46 | 0:30:54 | |
and I don't support that. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:56 | |
But most people disagree with me. | 0:30:56 | 0:30:58 | |
Why did you ask the question, Emyr Jones? | 0:30:58 | 0:31:00 | |
I think it's a complete waste of time. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
I don't care what they want to. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
If two men or women want to live together, I couldn't give two hoots. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
But when it becomes important enough for the government to waste | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
such a lot of time on, that are more important things. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:16 | |
Yes, too many other things. Did I see somebody else's hand? | 0:31:16 | 0:31:20 | |
Let's go over to Angharad Mair. | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
I read an interesting article in the paper last week | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
written by former Tory MP Matthew Parris, who is himself gay, | 0:31:26 | 0:31:30 | |
discussing the four former Tory MPs back in 1966, who are still alive, | 0:31:30 | 0:31:36 | |
and who voted against the right for gay people to have relationships, | 0:31:36 | 0:31:42 | |
and he said that time had now proved that they had made an awful mistake. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:47 | |
I also believe that Glyn Davies, and others who voted the same way | 0:31:47 | 0:31:50 | |
as him, will come to realise very soon that they have | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
civilised society in the 21st-century a bad turn. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:59 | |
Several people have talked about the sanctity of marriage. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:04 | |
Yet on the other hand, | 0:32:04 | 0:32:06 | |
more people get divorced in Britain than in any other European country. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:10 | |
32 percent of Welsh people in the last census said | 0:32:10 | 0:32:13 | |
they had no religion. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
I watched CF99 last night, | 0:32:15 | 0:32:19 | |
and MP Jonathan Edwards suggested that some of the Tory MPs | 0:32:19 | 0:32:23 | |
from Wales had been influenced by the party in Wales to vote as they did. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:31 | |
If that is true, I think all of us have to ask the question, | 0:32:31 | 0:32:33 | |
and to think about the fact - | 0:32:33 | 0:32:34 | |
if we want to be part of a civilised society that shows tolerance | 0:32:37 | 0:32:43 | |
and equality, what on earth is wrong with letting two | 0:32:43 | 0:32:48 | |
adults in a marriage to be partners in a loving relationship? | 0:32:48 | 0:32:55 | |
Nothing. I'm glad... I'm glad that the debate has happened, | 0:32:55 | 0:33:00 | |
because sometimes even though the economy is important, | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
and all kinds of other things - sometimes, | 0:33:03 | 0:33:05 | |
it is important to change society. | 0:33:05 | 0:33:06 | |
Perhaps Glyn Davies was reflecting the opinion of the people | 0:33:06 | 0:33:10 | |
of Montgomeryshire. | 0:33:10 | 0:33:11 | |
He had his finger on the pulse of the Montgomeryshire people. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
I have to say, it is my opinion. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:17 | |
Before I was elected to be an MP, people asked me the question, and | 0:33:17 | 0:33:21 | |
I replied, I'm not happy to redefine the meaning of the word marriage. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
That was my opinion before I was elected, and I still stick to that. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:30 | |
People in Montgomeryshire agree with me, and if I didn't do | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
that by which go against what I had said, and I'm not ready to do that. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:38 | |
There are some hands up in the audience. How about it? | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
It's an interesting subject. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:43 | |
On the one hand, the law of the land is going to catch up with real life. | 0:33:43 | 0:33:47 | |
People are living like this, | 0:33:49 | 0:33:51 | |
we have to acknowledge that we're not living at the beginning | 0:33:51 | 0:33:55 | |
of the 20th century, | 0:33:55 | 0:33:56 | |
and that we have to go further in order to disengage from tradition. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:01 | |
What part do religion and government have to play? | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
They have to be separated completely, | 0:34:09 | 0:34:11 | |
so that people like me, who say that we have no religion... Why is it | 0:34:11 | 0:34:15 | |
still part of schools curriculum | 0:34:17 | 0:34:19 | |
that we have two have religious education | 0:34:19 | 0:34:21 | |
completely exactly in the same way as we separate old | 0:34:21 | 0:34:25 | |
morality from the way people can live today? | 0:34:25 | 0:34:28 | |
So you are very glad that David Cameron pushed this measure ahead? | 0:34:28 | 0:34:32 | |
I was very surprised that Tories would say such a thing, | 0:34:33 | 0:34:37 | |
and that's why I think that what they're doing | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
is catching up with reality. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:42 | |
They are about six years behind the times, but nevertheless... | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
OK. You here. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:50 | |
I agree with Mr Glyn Davies. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
I feel that marriage between a man and a woman, | 0:34:54 | 0:34:58 | |
is to bring up a family, | 0:34:58 | 0:35:00 | |
with a mother and a father and everything else. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
I agree with civil partnerships, and when you say that equality | 0:35:03 | 0:35:07 | |
is there, well, they have it in a civil partnership. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
Everything that a husband and wife have. | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
So why do they want to get married? I don't understand it. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
And it's a slippery slope. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:18 | |
When we start to say civil partnerships, that's the end of it. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:22 | |
But oh no, it goes further. What will be next? | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
The churches and everybody else doing it. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
Soon men will be able to have two or three wives. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
Well, civil rights... And it'll go on to Europe, | 0:35:31 | 0:35:36 | |
the churches will have to do it and all. | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
Very quickly, why do you object from going from civil | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
partnership to the word marriage? | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
Because marriage means a man and a woman, a husband and wife, | 0:35:44 | 0:35:48 | |
and in our services, we say husband and wife. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:51 | |
What are you going to call two men? A husband and wife? | 0:35:51 | 0:35:54 | |
What words will you use? Partner, perhaps? | 0:35:54 | 0:35:59 | |
But partner means something very different. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:01 | |
Thank you very much. Up here? | 0:36:01 | 0:36:04 | |
There was a lot of talk during the debate about human rights. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:09 | |
But to me, marriage is a matter of the rights of children. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:14 | |
The purpose of marriage essentially is to protect children. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:18 | |
We live in a country which is not concerned enough about children. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:24 | |
Children's rights have been eroded, because we've devalued marriage. | 0:36:24 | 0:36:32 | |
We are celebrating our gold wedding this year, | 0:36:33 | 0:36:39 | |
I really appreciate the idea of marriage. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:42 | |
Thank you. Congratulations. Yes? | 0:36:44 | 0:36:46 | |
I think the only reason why we're talking about this tonight | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
is that the Tories and David Cameron are so desperate for votes, | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
this hides the fact that the economy is a mess, | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
and I think I have twigged, | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
there are people here who perhaps haven't been | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
affected by the recession, and this is going to please them, | 0:37:01 | 0:37:04 | |
and they're going to get their votes in the next election. | 0:37:04 | 0:37:08 | |
That's the only reason they've brought this up. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:11 | |
A fair point, but there is a Tory councillor sitting in front of you. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:16 | |
Tonight I agree with Angharad. | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
The churches and chapels should be more worried about the fact | 0:37:19 | 0:37:23 | |
that half our children are born outside of wedlock these days. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
We should be more concerned about that than being | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
concerned about what's being asked in Westminster this week. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
Hywel Wyn Edwards? | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
The question was, why are we wasting so much time on this? | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
And I would say, yes - it is a waste of time, really. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
There are far more important things that the government should be | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
addressing rather than this particular matter. | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
At the end of the day, it's not such a crucially important matter. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
So you agree with him? | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
No, not really. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:56 | |
I wouldn't have voted against him, because I think he's right, | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
whatever happens, that the individual should have that choice. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
Angharad talked about divorce. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
The plain truth is that marriage in fact... There are fewer people | 0:38:04 | 0:38:10 | |
getting married these days than for many many years. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
My concern is that once this right is introduced, | 0:38:14 | 0:38:19 | |
how many gay couples will actually want to get married? | 0:38:19 | 0:38:24 | |
I doubt if people will rush into this. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
But they are entitled to the right to do so. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:31 | |
The right to do so is fine. | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
But why waste all this time to discuss this one matter? | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
Do you agree, Alun? | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
No, I'm proud of this vote. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:40 | |
I think it's incredibly important to acknowledge everybody's right | 0:38:40 | 0:38:44 | |
to love and to marry whoever we so choose. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
It's very important indeed. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
I think it's very disappointing that the Tory party has | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
turned its back on today's society in the way that it has, | 0:38:53 | 0:38:57 | |
and also to discover that you have a British government | 0:38:57 | 0:39:01 | |
who does not realise that the Church in Wales is not | 0:39:01 | 0:39:04 | |
part of the Church of England, which, to me, is incredible. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:07 | |
So it is very important that this vote does not just reflect | 0:39:07 | 0:39:11 | |
a vote in parliament this week, but also reflects the way that | 0:39:11 | 0:39:15 | |
society is changing and will be changing in the future. | 0:39:15 | 0:39:18 | |
I think we have a better society | 0:39:18 | 0:39:20 | |
because of what happened this week, then we were last week. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:24 | |
Let's leave that subject there. Thank you for your contributions. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:27 | |
Let's go to our last break. | 0:39:27 | 0:39:28 | |
Join us again in Welshpool after the adverts. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
Welcome back. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:48 | |
You're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn in Welshpool. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:53 | |
We've now reached the topic that are mentioned at the beginning | 0:39:53 | 0:39:55 | |
of the programme. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:56 | |
A question from Miriam Hollard. what's your question? | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
It's disgusting that the Welsh government is not protecting | 0:40:00 | 0:40:05 | |
our communities from the schemes to build pylons in mid Wales. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:10 | |
We are facing a second Tryweryn in this area. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
Thank you. That's been said before on Pawb a'i Farn. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
It's disgusting that the government of Wales is not protecting | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
our communities from the schemes to build pylons in mid Wales. | 0:40:19 | 0:40:23 | |
We are facing a second Tryweryn in this area. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:28 | |
Angharad Mair how would you answer this? | 0:40:28 | 0:40:30 | |
There are certainly good reasons why it's possible to compare | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
the Tryweryn disaster with the windmills | 0:40:34 | 0:40:37 | |
which are desecrating our land at this moment. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
There are two truly important reasons | 0:40:40 | 0:40:42 | |
why we should fight these with one voice. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
The first is that that is a very real danger, as English councils | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
refuse them, that they will take advantage of Wales, and there | 0:40:48 | 0:40:52 | |
will be more of them here, but the second reason is the most important. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:57 | |
Wales gets very little economic benefit from all of these windmills. | 0:40:57 | 0:41:04 | |
Take the wind farm that's been in the news today - | 0:41:04 | 0:41:07 | |
Mynydd y Gwair by Swansea. Who owns the land? | 0:41:07 | 0:41:09 | |
The Duke of Beaufort, one of England's richest landowners. | 0:41:09 | 0:41:15 | |
Who's constructing the windmills? A major international company. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:20 | |
Why are they joining forces to do that in Swansea? | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
Because they going to make a fortune. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
We're paying £500 million every year in grants for people to | 0:41:26 | 0:41:31 | |
construct wind farms in Wales, but they don't live in Wales, | 0:41:31 | 0:41:35 | |
they don't live close to us, and they don't have two suffer | 0:41:35 | 0:41:37 | |
having their land and their heritage stolen from them. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:41 | |
But we need electricity from somewhere. These will supply it. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:44 | |
Take somewhere like Germany, where 60 percent of windmills belong | 0:41:44 | 0:41:49 | |
to the people, to the communities where they are built. | 0:41:49 | 0:41:53 | |
The tax the big companies have to pay goes to those communities, | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
so this economic benefit. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
But our problem is that back in 2005 | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
when Carwyn Jones as Minister of Energy at that time, | 0:42:02 | 0:42:05 | |
established Tan 8, that wasn't scrutinised in enough detail, | 0:42:05 | 0:42:09 | |
and what is happening now is that it's easy for the English | 0:42:09 | 0:42:12 | |
government to take advantage of this, and we're being walked over, | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
as happened in Capel Celyn 50 years ago - it's happening again today. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:20 | |
Thanks. Over to Alun Davies. The policy wasn't considered enough. | 0:42:20 | 0:42:26 | |
I think it's important that this policy is decentralised, | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
and that we make these decisions | 0:42:29 | 0:42:30 | |
wherever these proposals are in Wales. | 0:42:30 | 0:42:34 | |
I think it's very important that we make these decisions in Wales | 0:42:34 | 0:42:38 | |
and we as a government have asked the government in Westminster | 0:42:38 | 0:42:41 | |
to decentralise these powers several times. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:46 | |
Can I ask why - Labour were in power in Westminster for 13 years. | 0:42:46 | 0:42:51 | |
Why wasn't it decentralised then? | 0:42:51 | 0:42:52 | |
I have already said, we have said several times, | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
and when I was a backbencher, as suggested that we decentralise | 0:42:55 | 0:43:00 | |
these powers when Labour was in power, | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
and we have done so several times, and I hope that we will see that. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:07 | |
With regards to the pylons, and the wind farms, are you for them | 0:43:07 | 0:43:10 | |
or against them? | 0:43:10 | 0:43:12 | |
I want to see... I am in favour of wind power. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:15 | |
I'm not against it at all. | 0:43:15 | 0:43:19 | |
I have launched a consultation about the rural development | 0:43:19 | 0:43:24 | |
scheme during these last few weeks, | 0:43:24 | 0:43:26 | |
and I want to see how we can develop sustainable local | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
energy for communities, especially in rural Wales. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
But the point is, it's very important that we | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
profit from that, and that we as Welsh local communities can | 0:43:35 | 0:43:40 | |
control the kinds of developments that we're seeing. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
Thank you very much. Glyn? | 0:43:46 | 0:43:49 | |
The only reason that the Welsh government wants to have power | 0:43:49 | 0:43:54 | |
over this subject is to destroy mid-Wales. That's the only reason. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:58 | |
The Tan 8 policy came out. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
What they wanted to is to put these turbines and a line to Shrewsbury | 0:44:01 | 0:44:06 | |
will come with it, and it will destroy mid-Wales. | 0:44:06 | 0:44:08 | |
That's the reason why... I was ready to support seeing the powers | 0:44:08 | 0:44:14 | |
being given to the assembly before Tan 8 came. | 0:44:14 | 0:44:18 | |
After that, I would sooner die than support seeing this power | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
being given to the assembly, to destroy mid-Wales. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
That's what the policy of the Welsh government is. | 0:44:25 | 0:44:27 | |
There is a chance to stop it in Westminster. | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
That is absolute nonsense. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:32 | |
Tan 8 will ensure that you don't have windmills everywhere. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:37 | |
It will happen in specified places. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
And there will be limits on the number of developments. | 0:44:40 | 0:44:46 | |
That's what Tan 8 is about. But I think that has been misunderstood. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:49 | |
But there is no limit on fuel. Only on areas. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
Just a second. Let's hear from the audience. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
Gwern, in the back? From Llanfair Caereinion school? | 0:44:56 | 0:45:01 | |
My family have lived in Montgomeryshire for centuries. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:05 | |
To think that the serenity, | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
of the valley, is to be destroyed by these massive pylons. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:17 | |
Massive. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
They're just going to come through the valley, | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
and apparently, the windmills | 0:45:22 | 0:45:25 | |
as well, they've been one of the biggest models they have ever been. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:30 | |
With these pylons, they're apparently bad for your health and everything. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:38 | |
Thank you very much. Yes, your hand is up? | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
This subject often comes up, because at one level it is very important. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:49 | |
What I think is surprising, | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
is that we're still talking as if it's a choice between this and what? | 0:45:53 | 0:45:58 | |
We've got to have power. | 0:45:58 | 0:46:01 | |
I want to see a huge social experiment to see what works. | 0:46:01 | 0:46:06 | |
I don't think the existing framework which means that money is | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
poured into the pockets of individuals is a good one, | 0:46:09 | 0:46:13 | |
but we need an experiment, | 0:46:13 | 0:46:14 | |
and we also need to ask the question - | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
we all use electricity in this area, | 0:46:17 | 0:46:19 | |
if Gwern wants to protect the valley, fair enough in principle, | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
but if we have two have, for example, | 0:46:22 | 0:46:24 | |
a second Drax - Drax is an enormous place, burning coal. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:28 | |
If we need a second Drax, where will it go? | 0:46:28 | 0:46:32 | |
Not in Montgomeryshire, I presume! How about it? | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
I know why they chose this earlier, because the Labour government | 0:46:36 | 0:46:41 | |
wasn't going to lose votes in Montgomeryshire. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:46 | |
Do you think they were that cynical? | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
It's no different to what happens in Westminster, is it? | 0:46:49 | 0:46:54 | |
But the fact is that the windmills are not going to make the money back. | 0:46:54 | 0:47:02 | |
We hear that they don't last very long these days. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:07 | |
Of the windmills that was put up a year and a half ago, | 0:47:07 | 0:47:13 | |
Two of them have had their blades broken off in six months. | 0:47:13 | 0:47:20 | |
Hywel, let's hear from you. | 0:47:20 | 0:47:22 | |
In my office in Mold I look out on a rather large pylon. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:27 | |
It's not a very nice thing to look at all day. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:31 | |
And I'm sure that all of you would agree, you wouldn't want to | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
look at those out of your lounge window at any time. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:40 | |
Having said that, the pylons carry power. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:44 | |
The people of Snowdonia have been used to them for decades. | 0:47:44 | 0:47:47 | |
Not everywhere. And why should we have to get used to them? | 0:47:47 | 0:47:52 | |
If you go to England, you don't see many of these. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:56 | |
If you travel around the country as I do, I travel quite a lot, | 0:47:56 | 0:48:01 | |
though not on the A470 - I go the other way through England. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:05 | |
You don't see the pylons. Where are they? They're still carrying power. | 0:48:05 | 0:48:09 | |
They've been buried underground. Why can't we do that? | 0:48:09 | 0:48:13 | |
With that question, we must finish tonight's programme. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:19 | |
You can continue this discussion for another hour, | 0:48:19 | 0:48:21 | |
but before that, we must say goodbye to the audience at home. | 0:48:21 | 0:48:24 | |
Thank you all of you. Next week, we will be in Cardiff Bay. Goodbye. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 |