14/02/2013 Pawb a'i Farn


14/02/2013

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On our panel tonight, political commentator, Gareth Hughes,

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the Chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones,

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the accountant and Tory, Harri Lloyd Davies

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and Cardiff University lecturer, Simon Brooks.

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Give them a warm welcome.

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APPLAUSE

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Good evening and welcome to another episode of Pawb a'i Farn.

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I never get tired of saying that.

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We are in Cardiff Bay and in the most striking building

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we'll be broadcasting from this year.

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We've invited an audience of young people to the Senedd

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including students, school pupils and those making a living in the capital.

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It's an opportunity for the younger generation to have their say.

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Here are the addresses if you want to get in touch,

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especially if you want to come to one of our next two shows

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in Ystrad Rhondda and Carmarthen.

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What will we be discussing tonight?

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Let's get our first question from Ben. What is your question?

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People have been shocked by the horsemeat scandal.

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How can it be prevented from entering the food chain?

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People have been shocked by the horsemeat scandal.

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How can it be prevented from entering the food chain,

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or being called beef!

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Harri Lloyd Davies.

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It's important for us to understand where our food comes from.

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If you're not happy that Tesco or wherever is not safe,

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then go down to the local butcher

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and they will know exactly where the meat has come from, even which farm.

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It's safer to buy local produce. That is the easiest thing to do.

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It's also important to remember that we don't have much choice sometimes.

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That's why local authorities across Wales need to make sure

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that they carry out assessments on their meat suppliers

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to make sure it's healthy, and is beef rather than horsemeat.

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Helen Mary Jones.

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I think it's important that Harri accepts that part of the problem

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is that the Food Standards Agency has had budget cuts.

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They don't have as much power to start inquiries,

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without someone complaining in the first place.

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But I do agree that the food chain has to be sorted out.

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If you look at one of the cases,

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there were eight steps between the farm and Findus.

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Seven different countries.

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Even if it's not deliberate,

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you can see a lot of problems arising.

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I do agree with the idea of local produce, but that can be expensive.

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We need more investment in developing local co-operatives

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where people can buy from local farms

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but not as expensive as a local butcher, which can be pricey.

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But we have to face facts.

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Food can be expensive. We have to be ready to pay more.

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We have this obsession of buying food as cheaply as possible.

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It's OK for middle-class people to say that,

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who can spend more on having Sunday lunch at home

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and not going out but many families are struggling.

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What I'd like to see, and Plaid Cymru has been calling for this,

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is more cookery lessons at school so that people understand how to cook.

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I've seen good examples of things like that happening in Llanelli

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-the other communities as well.

-I think that is a good point.

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The cheapest meat at the butcher's is usually offal.

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It's cheap and tasty but you never buy it in the supermarket.

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But what about Helen Mary Jones' point

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that the Food Standards Agency has been broken up.

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There are a lot of problems.

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We don't know how long this has been going on.

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-In Ireland...

-But your Government has given the agency less power?

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I don't know if less power is the problem. They just haven't...

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-It's a simple fact...

-This has been going on for years.

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They have taken power away from the Food Standards Agency

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and given it to the Agriculture Department in Westminster.

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We also need to ask, where has the Welsh Government been in this?

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We know that food safety has been devolved

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and the Food Standards Agency is partly answerable to the Assembly.

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I'd like to ask, what have they been doing?

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We might get the answer from Gareth Hughes.

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I don't think there's a problem.

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No problem?

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I was in Verona two years ago

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and I ate donkey meat and it was very tasty.

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The problem is that we have a tradition of eating some things

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but not other things.

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Horsemeat is cheap, it's tasty,

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and I don't see a problem.

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The only problem is that we don't label them properly.

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So there is a problem.

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The reason that problem has arisen

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is because we've run down local government.

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The local government went round abattoirs and assessed them

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but that has stopped now.

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We've made cuts.

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If we expect high standards, we have to pay people to supervise it.

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We're not paying.

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If we're not ready to do that, we shouldn't have this discussion.

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Simon Brooks.

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I quite like the idea of turning to the French way of eating.

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More horsemeat!

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-Have you ever tried it?

-I've never tried horse.

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-I'd like to.

-Or donkey?

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No, or cat or dog, or many other interesting foods.

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From our point of view, what's interesting to me,

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We have to have more regulation of the food industry,

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more visits by the Food Standards Agency,

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but I do think that we have to shoulder the blame as customers.

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I don't think that we can use this argument

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that we don't have enough money to make choices.

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Every crisis in the food industry...

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But Helen Mary Jones says it's OK for the middle-class to say that.

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It does hit people who are unemployed, people on low incomes,

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but there are many wealthy people in this country who can choose.

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Eating local produce is good for the environment,

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it's good for the economy and our health.

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Many farmers speak Welsh so it's good for the language.

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Tick, tick, tick.

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The Welsh Government should have a campaign for people to shop locally.

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But the customer has suffered and is disappointed with this news?

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Well, if they don't like eating horsemeat, that's true.

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It's important that we don't set any more regulations

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on the farmers and the factories.

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At the end of the day, 99% of people follow the regulations.

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It's just a minority that fail to follow the regulations.

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So you need to have strict regulations.

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Yes, they have to be strict and they have to be followed.

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We will need more regulations.

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I don't think we need more.

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We just need to make sure that the ones we have are followed.

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Following a scandal like this, there will be more regulation.

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That won't help Welsh farmers and people who work in the industry.

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The way to help Welsh farmers

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is to eat Welsh produce and shop locally.

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We need more regulation.

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But we have to buy from local food producers.

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In that way we support our local economy,

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our language and our health.

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So people need help to gain that access.

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If you live in the South Wales valleys,

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on a housing estate at the top of a hill,

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you can't even afford to go to Tesco to buy food,

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not to mention a market.

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We have to make sure that everyone has access to good local food.

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A lot of nonsense is spoken about this good local food.

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When I go out shopping to buy a meal,

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I want to buy something that I can have there and then.

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I will buy a lasagne, I don't know what's in it, but I'll eat it.

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That's the important thing...

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I'm sure you don't want it full of horse antibiotics!

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We're not all going to be master chefs.

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We buy a packet, we put it in the microwave and that is our meal.

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Most people eat like that.

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-Do you worry about the contents?

-No, not at all!

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I'm still here!

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-You don't read the labels?

-No, I'm not worried.

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It's the picture. If it looks tasty, I'll buy it.

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Can you help me, audience members?

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How do you shop locally in Cardiff?

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Are there small butchers in the capital city?

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One example in Cardiff is the market itself.

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You have a local butcher,

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people who sell fruit and vegetables.

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They can tell you where the meat has come from.

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It's not always more expensive.

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People expect it to be, but it is not always.

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Let me turn the audience.

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If horsemeat has gone into the food chain,

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what else has gone in that we are not aware of?

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Fair point. At the back.

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As someone who looked forward to eating horsemeat in Switzerland...

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-You've eaten it?

-Yes.

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I'm worried that the supermarkets

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are not having the finger pointed at them.

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They have the big margins.

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I think they have a responsibility to put money into the system.

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They're to blame because they don't monitor what's going into the food.

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-So you have eaten horsemeat?

-Yes.

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Who else has eaten horsemeat?

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Really? What was it like?

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I think... I think it tastes better than...

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I think it's my favourite meat.

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Your favourite?! What does it taste like?

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A bit like steak.

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-What does it taste like?

-It isn't something odd.

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It just tastes like meat.

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Where I live, in Roath in Cardiff, we have plenty of butchers,

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but as a student with a limited income,

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it's difficult to buy things locally.

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I agree with Helen Mary

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that it has to be an affordable way to buy the local produce.

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It is difficult.

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Somebody living in the valleys, they don't all have the choice.

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You have to strengthen the system so that there is a Co-op.

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That will strengthen the communities in Wales.

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Ben, you asked the question, how would you answer it?

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I think it's important that people know what's in their food.

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I think there's a big responsibility...

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on the people who...

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Yes?

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We have to know what's in the food.

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Something has to be done about it.

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You are totally different to Gareth Hughes.

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And one more in the front row.

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I think there's a wider debate here.

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People across the world are starving

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and there are warnings that there isn't enough food.

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Does the panel think the Government should step in

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and look into introducing different foods in Britain

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due to that problem?

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I want to ask a question before we end this discussion.

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Is it time to devolve the Food Standards Agency's power

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so that this happens here?

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There was an opportunity

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when the Food Standards Agency was established

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for the Welsh Government to have an agency of its own.

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-It's a pity...

-Could we do better?

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Is it being devolved a good thing in this case?

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I don't think that's the reason.

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We've seen pictures all over the world

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of our food industry in the dock over the last week.

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This will hit the Welsh food industry for years to come.

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We have a lot of work to do to rebuild our food industry.

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In a sentence.

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Yes, we should be devolving everything.

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It is silly that we have things in the agriculture industry

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which have been devolved and other things that have not.

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People are confused.

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No, I don't think it should be devolved.

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We should send it to Europe.

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The problem is spread over seven or eight countries.

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You can't control that from Wales.

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These food standards issues should be dealt with by Europe.

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Many thanks to the panel and the audience.

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Let's move on to the next question now.

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Unemployment figures for youngsters in Britain are worryingly high.

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How would the panel improve the situation?

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There we are, a question about your own generation. Thank you.

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Unemployment figures for young people in Britain are worryingly high.

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How would the panel improve the situation? Helen Mary Jones?

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Firstly, Plaid Cymru would agree with you

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that this is one of the main problems facing us as a country.

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Some older people, like myself, who grew up in the 1980s

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will remember that we had a generation which was forgotten.

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If you are out of work for a period of two or three years,

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it can become very difficult to get back in.

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That is why we in Plaid Cymru have a scheme to create green jobs.

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When we were in talks with the Welsh Government here

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about whether we would support their budget,

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we asked for 10,000 new apprenticeships

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to give young people an opportunity to come in to the market.

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What are these green jobs?

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There is a green plan to develop,

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within the water industry, for example,

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we aren't doing enough of it.

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I cannot go into detail,

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but there is a document with all the figures and costings in it.

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-Will this help the youngsters who cannot find a job?

-It is one example.

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It is not going to be an answer to the whole problem.

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But I believe what's so frustrating

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is that we know the Welsh Government doesn't have

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all the tools that it should have

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when it comes to taxes and so on to create jobs.

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But it's very frustrating for us

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to see that they're not using the powers that they have.

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They could invest in capital projects

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which will create temporary jobs in the construction industry.

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And spend large sums of money which aren't there?

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The money is there, but it depends on how you spend it.

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Nobody said it was easy.

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Thanks to Harri and his crew, money is tight.

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But the question is, how will we invest that money?

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We in Plaid Cymru believe it is important that we

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invest in the long-term and not wait for England to give us the powers.

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-We must act now.

-Helen, thank you.

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I'll come to you shortly, Harri. Gareth Hughes.

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I don't think you can deal with it by using little projects

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as the Welsh Government is doing.

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-So you agree with Helen, we need large projects?

-Yes, well, no.

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What is needed... What this country has done is crazy.

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At a time of recession, you don't make cuts upon cuts.

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What you should do is spend and spend.

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That is the only way to get the economy to grow

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and that is the answer in the long-term.

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The economy has to grow so that people can have work.

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I can see Harri smiling without having to look at him.

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Which Government spent...?

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His Government's policy, what can we expect?

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Living standards have been down since 2005.

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Also, there are no prospects.

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As Sir Mervyn King said yesterday,

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there are no prospects for economic growth

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on this side of the next election.

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That is why he is in difficulty.

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The first thing, unfortunately, is the cuts are only just starting.

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-People say the cuts have been too harsh.

-It's going to get worse.

-Yes.

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It's easy for you to say we should have more debt,

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but you must remember that the people in this audience

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will have to pay off that debt in 20 years time.

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You cannot repay a debt unless you have money to repay it.

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That is the weakness.

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You don't understand that you must inflate the economy

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in order to repay the debt.

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You cannot repay a debt by making more and more cuts.

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We're not cutting money that we create,

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we're cutting money that we don't have.

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All the money was spent under the previous Labour Government.

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The money has gone. Now, we have to try to rebuild the economy.

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We're starting to see it.

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Confidence is beginning to return to the economy.

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We're not growing quickly enough and we need more growth.

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That is the way we create jobs for young people.

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Will that growth come from further cuts?

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You said we haven't seen the worst of it.

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What can we do? There's no money there.

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We don't want more debt, we can't afford the debt we have.

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We're going to do what Barack Obama has done in the US

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which is borrowing to invest, not borrowing to pay benefits

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which is what your Government is having to do.

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By returning to you points, Gareth. I would not disagree for one second,

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but this is where we are.

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We have a Welsh Government and they should do more.

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For every young person entering a job,

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the 10,000 apprenticeships we have worked out with the Government

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won't change everything for everyone but it will change the lives

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of those 10,000 people and that is worth doing.

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-Simon Brooks?

-I don't believe we should be taking this

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in the direction of a discussion on a macro economic policy.

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The truth is, our society is uneven and unequal

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whatever the economic situation.

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We have seen basic maladministration when it comes to age.

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We have transferred society's wealth from youngsters

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to the baby boom generation, people of Dewi's age.

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What we have done is to create a situation

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where houses are available for the older generation

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and jobs are available for the older generation.

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This recession is slightly different to the one in the 1980s.

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That is because we aren't throwing so many people on the rubbish tip

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as we did then, but what we're not doing is recruiting.

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What's really interesting is that when you look around Europe,

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countries have different rates of youth unemployment.

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You have 50% in Spain, 20% in Britain and 10% in Germany.

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How have they reached that figure of 10% in Germany?

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If you agree with Helen,

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then they have done this by concentrating on people

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who aren't going to university by creating apprenticeships

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which lead those people in a structured way towards a job.

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It's interesting to hear a university lecturer saying

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there is too much emphasis on going to university.

0:21:030:21:06

That is often the only aim.

0:21:060:21:08

No, you should go to university if you want to go to university.

0:21:080:21:11

But there are young people who aren't going to university

0:21:110:21:14

and we need to think about them.

0:21:140:21:16

Let's hear from our young people. Is this a worrying time for you?

0:21:160:21:20

I'll start here.

0:21:200:21:22

Yes, Harri made a point there,

0:21:220:21:25

that confidence was coming back into the economy.

0:21:250:21:33

David Cameron and George Osborne have been saying that since 2010.

0:21:330:21:37

We can see that the economy is flatlining.

0:21:370:21:39

The only way that you can move forwards is, as Gareth said,

0:21:390:21:42

by investing money and by investing money in young people.

0:21:420:21:45

Without that, as Helen said, you're going to create

0:21:450:21:48

another generation which is forgotten.

0:21:480:21:50

You'll create a vicious circle.

0:21:500:21:52

2010 will be like the 1980s.

0:21:520:21:54

You asked the question, is this a worrying time for you?

0:21:540:22:00

Are you worried? Are you in college or school? Where are you studying?

0:22:000:22:03

-I'm at school.

-Which school?

-Llanhari.

0:22:030:22:05

We've heard the name, Llanhari.

0:22:050:22:07

I'm sure we'll hear more later on.

0:22:070:22:09

Is it a worrying time for you?

0:22:090:22:11

Yes, the question is, are there enough resources for us

0:22:110:22:17

to find jobs these days?

0:22:170:22:19

Also, if we go to university,

0:22:190:22:20

how can we afford to go without getting a job?

0:22:200:22:24

Yes, we'll return to that. You had your hand up.

0:22:240:22:27

I believe the problem stems from education.

0:22:270:22:31

Whether the economy is growing and improving,

0:22:310:22:33

if there are jobs out there, does the younger generation

0:22:330:22:37

have the necessary skills to get these new jobs?

0:22:370:22:40

Do we have the skills in the developing sciences

0:22:400:22:46

to get those jobs in the long-term?

0:22:460:22:48

Do you get enough advice, in school or at university, concerning careers?

0:22:480:22:54

How much emphasis is on that side of things?

0:22:540:22:56

There is quite a bit of emphasis

0:22:560:23:00

on thinking about what you want to do in future,

0:23:000:23:03

but there isn't much emphasis on what skills you would require

0:23:030:23:06

to get into those jobs.

0:23:060:23:07

They talk about getting grades,

0:23:070:23:09

but not about the extra-curricular things.

0:23:090:23:11

There we are.

0:23:110:23:12

Right at the back, the University of Glamorgan, if I remember correctly.

0:23:120:23:16

Yes, I believe there is a lot of emphasis on subjects

0:23:160:23:20

such as medicine and going to study medicine and mathematics.

0:23:200:23:24

I don't believe there is enough emphasis on people

0:23:240:23:27

who want to go into the arts or education, who would like to teach.

0:23:270:23:32

I believe we need to look back at secondary schools

0:23:320:23:35

and help at that stage.

0:23:350:23:37

If I can cut across you, shouldn't we be putting more emphasis

0:23:370:23:42

on those subjects where jobs are available at the end?

0:23:420:23:47

Yes, but help also needs to be given to those people

0:23:470:23:50

who want to go into areas where there aren't as many jobs.

0:23:500:23:55

They also need more attention.

0:23:550:23:57

OK. Anyone else?

0:23:570:23:59

What about Simon's point that not enough attention is being given

0:23:590:24:02

to apprenticeships as there would have been at your time, Gareth?

0:24:020:24:07

That is true, but in order to have apprenticeships,

0:24:070:24:10

you need to have companies to run them.

0:24:100:24:13

If the economy is flatlining, and it isn't growing at all,

0:24:130:24:18

there's no point having that education

0:24:180:24:21

because we have seen a decline in the economy overall.

0:24:210:24:25

This happened especially under Mrs Thatcher.

0:24:250:24:28

Everybody thought London was where all the growth would take place

0:24:280:24:33

and that what we manufactured in factories across Wales and England

0:24:330:24:38

wasn't important. Apprenticeships weren't important.

0:24:380:24:41

-How can we change that emphasis?

-We must change the economy.

0:24:410:24:45

But first, you have to inflate that economy.

0:24:450:24:49

There's no point to any of these measures.

0:24:490:24:51

You keep returning to that point. It's like a reel.

0:24:510:24:55

We have seen this before.

0:24:550:24:58

Japan did the same thing over the years and there was no growth there.

0:24:580:25:04

Now, they are reconsidering the situation.

0:25:040:25:06

Governance doesn't grow economies.

0:25:060:25:08

Small companies grow economies at the end of the day.

0:25:080:25:12

But they must have the confidence to do that.

0:25:120:25:14

-They must have the confidence.

-The confidence is returning.

0:25:140:25:18

Mervyn King has said.

0:25:180:25:19

What is important, what we should be doing

0:25:190:25:21

is to inspire young people to start small businesses.

0:25:210:25:24

That is the way we will get the economy to grow.

0:25:240:25:27

These people will then begin to employ other young people.

0:25:270:25:30

What your Government hasn't done is force banks to lend money

0:25:300:25:33

to young people who want to start businesses.

0:25:330:25:36

You are right to say that the Government doesn't grow the economy.

0:25:360:25:39

But the Government creates the conditions in which

0:25:390:25:42

the economy can grow or vice versa.

0:25:420:25:46

But interest rates are as low as they have ever been

0:25:460:25:49

and they are much lower in Britain than almost everywhere else.

0:25:490:25:53

But you need the banks to lend money.

0:25:530:25:55

The truth is, unemployment among young people has been higher

0:25:550:25:59

than the norm in other parts of Europe in Britain for decades.

0:25:590:26:03

-You said this before, but you didn't explain why?

-Why?

0:26:030:26:06

It's because in other countries they have a clear pathway

0:26:060:26:10

which takes people from school to work.

0:26:100:26:12

If you don't go to university in Britain, that pathway isn't clear.

0:26:120:26:17

Let's hear from a few more people in our audience.

0:26:170:26:20

I would like to come back to what Gareth said about apprenticeships.

0:26:200:26:25

I have friends who left school at 16

0:26:250:26:29

and they got apprenticeships at places like Wylfa.

0:26:290:26:33

Some of my friends now earn around £40,000

0:26:330:26:37

after working for about five years.

0:26:370:26:40

I have a law degree.

0:26:400:26:42

I don't know how long it will take for me to earn that amount of money.

0:26:420:26:48

That's very interesting. Where did I see another hand up. Here we are.

0:26:480:26:52

I believe the unemployment problem comes from the fact that

0:26:520:26:56

too many employers ask for experience.

0:26:560:26:59

But where are we expected to get that experience

0:26:590:27:02

if it is our first job? It's a vicious circle.

0:27:020:27:06

Yes, and in the back row!

0:27:060:27:07

Going back to the economic point.

0:27:070:27:11

When a recession takes place,

0:27:110:27:13

doesn't the panel believe

0:27:130:27:16

that it is the Government's responsibility

0:27:160:27:20

to restore confidence by investing in things.

0:27:200:27:24

When the private sector loses confidence,

0:27:240:27:27

shouldn't the Government increase spending and funds?

0:27:270:27:35

We had another hand up. We'll come back to you.

0:27:350:27:37

Going back to the point about experience.

0:27:370:27:39

The education system in Germany

0:27:390:27:42

has a 60-day work experience period every year.

0:27:420:27:46

We only have a week.

0:27:460:27:48

That is why the rate of unemployment among young people is much lower.

0:27:480:27:56

Harri Lloyd Davies, you can end this topic of discussion.

0:27:560:27:58

Where do you find the confidence for young people

0:27:580:28:01

to establish small businesses as you've suggested they should do?

0:28:010:28:04

How do we give back confidence to them? I believe it's growing.

0:28:040:28:09

You can see it happening all the time.

0:28:090:28:11

You can see it in the CBI and the South Wales Chamber of Commerce.

0:28:110:28:14

They all show small businesses

0:28:140:28:16

are starting to have more confidence in the future.

0:28:160:28:19

I believe that will improve over the next year or two.

0:28:190:28:22

With those words, and the noise we heard from the corner,

0:28:220:28:25

it's time for us to have a break.

0:28:250:28:27

Join us again in Cardiff Bay in a couple of minutes.

0:28:270:28:30

Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Cardiff Bay.

0:28:440:28:48

We have an audience made up of young people from the area.

0:28:480:28:51

Let's go to our third question.

0:28:510:28:53

It comes from Iwan Hughes. What is your question?

0:28:530:28:56

The number of applications from Wales

0:28:560:28:58

for university places has fallen.

0:28:580:29:00

Is this a sign that the Government's tuition fee policy has failed?

0:29:000:29:04

Iwan has asked,

0:29:040:29:06

the number of applications from Wales for university places has fallen.

0:29:060:29:10

Is this a sign that the Government's tuition fee policy has failed?

0:29:100:29:14

Iwan, what do you believe?

0:29:140:29:16

I believe that with the country in its current economic state,

0:29:160:29:20

fewer people are going to go to university.

0:29:200:29:24

-What about you personally?

-I intend to go to university, yes.

0:29:240:29:27

-So you are in the sixth form?

-Yes.

-Which school?

-Plasmawr.

-There we are.

0:29:270:29:32

Simon Brooks, as someone from the academic world,

0:29:320:29:34

what do you make of this question?

0:29:340:29:37

I don't think it's failed.

0:29:370:29:38

Where would we be without this policy from the viewpoint

0:29:380:29:41

of young Welsh people?

0:29:410:29:43

We'd have people from wealthier backgrounds that currently

0:29:430:29:48

attend universities, going on to establishments in Wales.

0:29:480:29:53

It hasn't failed.

0:29:530:29:55

But it hasn't attracted as much as someone might hope.

0:29:550:29:57

From my understanding, this year a percentage in Wales had dropped.

0:29:570:30:05

But saying that it didn't drop that much last year

0:30:050:30:08

and it's possible what we've seen following the Government's policy

0:30:090:30:12

is that drop had been held back for 12 months in terms of...

0:30:120:30:16

-You think there's no need to worry?

-I'm saying this.

0:30:160:30:21

The situation would be much, much worse without this policy.

0:30:210:30:26

But I think the policy needs to be changed.

0:30:260:30:30

I don't think we can support it in the long-term in Wales.

0:30:300:30:34

I think it's too expensive.

0:30:340:30:36

I also think Welsh universities are under pressure especially

0:30:360:30:41

with the number of young people studying in England.

0:30:410:30:44

I think this policy should be restricted to young people

0:30:440:30:48

who attend universities in Wales.

0:30:480:30:52

To return to how it was for a time. That's how it worked.

0:30:530:30:56

I don't think Wales should be like East Germany,

0:30:560:31:00

if you want to leave Wales, great, you can do that.

0:31:000:31:03

But I don't think it's up to the Welsh tax payer

0:31:030:31:06

to pay you to do that.

0:31:060:31:08

For those youngsters who want to study a subject that's not available

0:31:090:31:14

in Welsh universities you wouldn't sponsor them

0:31:140:31:16

unless they stay in Wales.

0:31:160:31:18

We should be developing those courses in Wales.

0:31:180:31:21

That's part of developing a sensible higher education system

0:31:210:31:25

in our country. I don't think there is an argument

0:31:250:31:28

for paying young people from Wales to study in Nottingham

0:31:280:31:32

or places like that and for them to then live there

0:31:320:31:35

for the rest of their lives.

0:31:350:31:36

They receive £27,000 and then won't contribute to our economy.

0:31:360:31:39

I think it's too early to tell if the policy has failed.

0:31:390:31:44

I think it was a poor policy in the first place.

0:31:450:31:48

If the course isn't worth £9,000 a year, why study it?

0:31:480:31:51

If you want a job at the end of it the job should be good enough

0:31:510:31:55

to pay for the course you attended.

0:31:550:31:57

So you're saying no financial support at all?

0:31:570:31:59

We're looking at maybe this policy costing £1.5 billion.

0:31:590:32:03

-We've talked about this.

-What do you suggest instead?

0:32:030:32:08

People should pay the same as it is in England and Scotland

0:32:080:32:13

-and everywhere else.

-It isn't the same in Scotland.

0:32:130:32:17

Sorry, not Scotland. Exactly the same as in England.

0:32:170:32:20

I'd like to see that money being put into people

0:32:200:32:23

starting up their own businesses or into apprenticeships.

0:32:230:32:26

That would be better.

0:32:260:32:28

Right, hands are going up like a forest in the back row.

0:32:280:32:32

What do you think?

0:32:320:32:34

Harri says you expect to get...

0:32:350:32:37

..job at the end of your course or whatever.

0:32:390:32:42

That's not the purpose of education to me.

0:32:420:32:45

I see education as a way of expanding my horizons

0:32:450:32:49

and to see more of the world and to understand about it.

0:32:490:32:54

But don't you want a job at the end?

0:32:540:32:56

As the gentleman said earlier about a degree in law, there's no sense

0:32:560:33:03

doing a degree economically these days because everyone has a degree.

0:33:040:33:08

Everyone who's in the middle classes

0:33:090:33:12

wants to be part of the that world.

0:33:120:33:15

They're going to get a degree.

0:33:150:33:18

Everyone's following the same path.

0:33:180:33:20

-So there's no point gaining a degree?

-Well, no.

0:33:210:33:23

-Economically there's no point at the moment.

-Back to the back row.

0:33:230:33:27

There should be more emphasis on learning more.

0:33:270:33:30

Yes, right, thank you. You in the back.

0:33:320:33:36

What Harri said about investing in businesses,

0:33:360:33:39

if you don't invest in the education of these young people,

0:33:390:33:43

they establish businesses here

0:33:430:33:46

and they need the training from the universities.

0:33:460:33:50

The only way many of them from poorer backgrounds can gain

0:33:500:33:54

this education is through the Government policy.

0:33:540:33:59

You can't invest in businesses that haven't been set up by those

0:33:590:34:03

going to university.

0:34:030:34:04

What about those who are hoping to attend universities in Scotland

0:34:040:34:08

or England? Simon suggests you shouldn't be getting that grant.

0:34:080:34:11

I agree with the idea that Welsh people shouldn't pay for those

0:34:120:34:18

-who won't even contribute to our economy.

-Maybe they'll return.

0:34:180:34:22

Exactly, but it comes back to the point,

0:34:220:34:25

are we part of the UK or are we a stand-alone country?

0:34:250:34:28

At the moment we're part of the UK

0:34:280:34:30

-so I think it's part of the wider economy.

-Thank you. Which school?

0:34:300:34:35

-Llangynidr.

-I have to be fair, we haven't had that name here before.

0:34:350:34:41

Back to Cerith.

0:34:410:34:42

What I find extremely sad is that Harri

0:34:420:34:47

and his ilk still have the same opinion where if they had their way

0:34:470:34:53

only the privileged would have access to high education.

0:34:530:34:57

But I also agree with Simon, if we are going to finance people

0:34:570:35:01

from Wales to go to university they should remain in Wales.

0:35:010:35:05

But when it comes to veterinary sciences...

0:35:050:35:08

But what if you want to be a vet?

0:35:080:35:10

I have a friend who's studying in Liverpool

0:35:100:35:13

and she couldn't study to become a vet in Wales.

0:35:130:35:17

She had to move to Liverpool.

0:35:170:35:19

-But I do think those courses have to developed in Wales.

-We could...

0:35:190:35:22

Hang on Simon. Let's have a voice from here. I take it you disagree?

0:35:220:35:26

Yes. Some English universities are of a higher standard

0:35:260:35:30

than some universities in Wales.

0:35:300:35:32

You expect those pupils who have the opportunity

0:35:320:35:36

to go to high standard universities to stay in Wales

0:35:360:35:39

just so they can benefit financially.

0:35:390:35:42

That's not fair on individuals.

0:35:420:35:45

-Simon Brooks.

-I'll answer both points.

0:35:450:35:48

First about the subjects like veterinary sciences.

0:35:480:35:51

We could create a temporary list of subjects that aren't

0:35:510:35:54

taught in Wales and they can be separated.

0:35:540:35:57

But what about the point, there are better universities available

0:35:570:36:01

in England and you're preventing Welsh students from going there?

0:36:010:36:04

Welsh students have every right to attend any university in the world.

0:36:040:36:08

From Harvard to Cardiff or wherever.

0:36:080:36:11

But should the taxpayer from Wales, which is one of the poorest

0:36:110:36:16

countries in Western Europe, be paying for that?

0:36:160:36:20

I think that's appropriate in Wales

0:36:200:36:22

because the young people then re-invest in the economy.

0:36:220:36:26

But people who go to Harvard could be coming back top Wales.

0:36:260:36:31

It's not our place as Welsh tax payers to pay people

0:36:310:36:35

to leave our country and take the skills elsewhere.

0:36:360:36:39

-But they can come back.

-Hang on, Gareth Hughes.

0:36:400:36:44

Things have changed since your day.

0:36:440:36:47

I went out of the country, I went to LSE.

0:36:470:36:51

Caernarfon County Council, as it was, paid for me to go there.

0:36:510:36:55

I think there is a lack of confidence in Wales.

0:36:550:37:00

We can't be narrow-minded and staying in a our own Square Mile.

0:37:000:37:04

That is not something young people want.

0:37:040:37:09

I was interviewed by young people in my local college,

0:37:090:37:13

Dwyfor Meirionnydd College.

0:37:130:37:15

I asked them if they wanted to stay in that area?

0:37:150:37:17

It's important to keep the Welsh language alive.

0:37:170:37:21

The majority of young people at Ygol Dwyfor Meirionnydd...

0:37:210:37:24

sorry, Dwyfor Meirionnydd College said they wanted to go

0:37:240:37:28

to the big cities. I don't blame them.

0:37:280:37:31

I don't blame the people of Wales going out of Wales

0:37:310:37:34

to wherever they want.

0:37:340:37:36

We want a wide community, that is not narrow.

0:37:360:37:39

That's what's going to happen if we restrict ourselves to Wales.

0:37:390:37:43

The debate we have had tonight proves

0:37:430:37:47

how difficult the situation is.

0:37:470:37:49

The point that you make that maybe their courses in Wales

0:37:490:37:52

aren't of a high enough standard, we have to ask the question why?

0:37:520:37:56

Do our universities respond to our students' needs?

0:37:560:37:59

I understands Simon's situation, is it fair,

0:37:590:38:04

we are going to seek people going out to study everywhere,

0:38:040:38:07

but if I run a hair dresser's in Llanelli, is it fair for me

0:38:070:38:13

to pay for you to go wherever you want?

0:38:130:38:15

I am very wary that if we go back to the situation

0:38:150:38:19

where only those from privileged backgrounds

0:38:190:38:22

are the only ones going to university.

0:38:220:38:25

We were the first country back in 1928,

0:38:250:38:27

Glamorgan Council gave the opportunity for young people

0:38:270:38:31

from working-class backgrounds to get a loan, it was not a grant,

0:38:310:38:35

I know it because my father was one of them.

0:38:350:38:38

But has this policy failed?

0:38:380:38:40

The policy has not failed.

0:38:400:38:42

If we look at the drop, it isn't as much in Wales as it was in England.

0:38:420:38:47

But there is a question about how sustainable it is.

0:38:470:38:51

That is why we in Plaid Cymru in are holding national discussions

0:38:510:38:55

about what we can have as a sustainable way forward.

0:38:550:38:59

I want to go to the audience. Let's go to the back row.

0:38:590:39:01

About Simon's point, I don't understand,

0:39:010:39:05

that would not work if you stayed in a university in Wales.

0:39:050:39:10

Who is to say when you're 18 and going to university,

0:39:100:39:14

you don't know what you're going to do at the end of your degree.

0:39:140:39:17

As it happens I went to a Welsh university, I graduated

0:39:170:39:20

and I moved to England to work.

0:39:200:39:24

I had no intention of doing that when I was 18,

0:39:240:39:26

I had no idea was going to move to England to work when I was 21.

0:39:260:39:30

That is where the jobs were.

0:39:300:39:32

So everyone should have this financial support?

0:39:320:39:35

With the financial support,

0:39:350:39:37

I don't know how you can say by investing in those

0:39:370:39:40

who are only going to remain in Welsh universities

0:39:400:39:45

that they will reinvest in Wales.

0:39:450:39:48

When you're 18 you have no idea where you will end up.

0:39:480:39:51

-In front of you.

-It is just as important to raise Wales's profile.

0:39:510:39:57

If somebody feels that they can make a name for themselves

0:39:570:40:01

in London, one to they then be raising Wales's profile

0:40:010:40:04

to say they are proud to come from Wales?

0:40:040:40:08

-So it is a good thing we go to other universities?

-Yes.

0:40:080:40:12

-How about you in the back row?

-I agree with you both.

0:40:120:40:15

Rather than investing in Welsh universities

0:40:150:40:19

it would be better to invest in jobs so people can go abroad,

0:40:190:40:22

maybe to England and then return to jobs in Wales.

0:40:220:40:26

But there is no certainty that they will come back.

0:40:260:40:28

-If the jobs are here.

-How about you?

0:40:280:40:31

I think everyone should have the right to attend

0:40:310:40:33

university in England.

0:40:330:40:35

Nobody is preventing you, but you won't have the same financial gain.

0:40:350:40:40

Wales depends on a lot of its money coming from England,

0:40:400:40:44

there isn't much prospects getting good jobs in Wales.

0:40:440:40:49

A lot of people are unemployed.

0:40:490:40:51

There are more jobs in England and you get better education there.

0:40:510:40:56

Harri Lloyd Davies suggests we should get rid of the policy altogether.

0:40:570:41:02

Everyone should pay for themselves. There was someone else here.

0:41:020:41:06

One thing that hasn't been touched upon is that the £9,000 per annum

0:41:060:41:12

price tag has been set by the Westminster Government.

0:41:120:41:16

It means students in England who are responsible for the cuts

0:41:160:41:23

in the number of students recruited by Welsh universities.

0:41:230:41:27

English universities don't have a cap on recruitment on those

0:41:270:41:30

students that get the higher grades.

0:41:300:41:33

English universities have more freedom to recruit as they wish.

0:41:330:41:37

That creates a more difficult market

0:41:370:41:39

for Welsh universities to compete against.

0:41:390:41:42

What you make of that, Simon Brooks?

0:41:420:41:44

Not many people agree with you. Does anyone agree with you?

0:41:450:41:50

I think that we have to have confidence

0:41:500:41:53

in our own establishments.

0:41:530:41:54

People have the right to do what they wish with their lives.

0:41:540:41:58

I don't think there is an argument for us

0:41:580:42:01

to finance young people to leave the country

0:42:010:42:04

when we know what we need is young people to stay here.

0:42:040:42:09

You have a sentence.

0:42:090:42:11

I think it is important that we make sure that Welsh universities

0:42:110:42:16

get enough money.

0:42:160:42:18

If we send too many people out of Wales,

0:42:180:42:22

it is important that the universities are good enough

0:42:220:42:25

and people want to stay in Wales to study.

0:42:250:42:28

We have one more subject to discuss but first let's have a short break.

0:42:280:42:34

Welcome back to the Assembly building here in Cardiff Bay.

0:42:470:42:51

We have one more question to go in the programme.

0:42:510:42:54

It is asked by Megan Jones.

0:42:540:42:57

How do you make sure the Welsh language is heard and used

0:42:570:43:00

outside of the classroom and in our communities?

0:43:000:43:02

A question that we discuss often on this programme.

0:43:020:43:05

How do make sure the Welsh language is heard

0:43:050:43:07

and used outside the classroom and in our communities?

0:43:070:43:11

Let's start with Gareth Hughes.

0:43:110:43:14

It is true that it is difficult to get people who attend Welsh schools

0:43:140:43:18

to use the Welsh language outside the classroom.

0:43:180:43:25

I have two daughters who went to a Welsh school, Cwm Rhymni,

0:43:250:43:29

and even with their friends who went to the same school,

0:43:290:43:33

after leaving school, they would speak English.

0:43:330:43:37

I think there's something wrong there. I am not sure what it is.

0:43:370:43:41

Speaking Welsh wasn't seen as cool.

0:43:410:43:45

If we want to discuss the Welsh language,

0:43:450:43:48

we don't want to discuss the language itself,

0:43:490:43:53

but what about concentrating on talking about things in Welsh.

0:43:530:43:57

Often enough, we have a debate about the future of the language.

0:43:570:44:01

In the magazines, there are articles and articles

0:44:010:44:05

about the Welsh language.

0:44:050:44:07

But what I want to know is, we should be discussing

0:44:070:44:11

a wide range of topics, perhaps more popular topics.

0:44:110:44:15

We are concentrating too much on the language

0:44:150:44:20

and not concentrating enough on using the language.

0:44:200:44:24

That is our failing as a nation.

0:44:240:44:28

We worry too much about the languages instead of using it.

0:44:280:44:33

Megan.

0:44:330:44:36

I hear people in school talking in English.

0:44:360:44:39

I think something needs to be done.

0:44:390:44:42

I don't agree with people speaking English after their parents chose

0:44:420:44:47

-for them to attend a Welsh school.

-How can you change that?

0:44:470:44:49

You can't force people.

0:44:490:44:54

I think schools should give out stricter punishments.

0:44:540:44:58

-Which school do you attend?

-Plasmawr.

0:44:580:45:00

Let's move to the back.

0:45:000:45:04

Shouldn't we look at the classroom before looking outside?

0:45:040:45:08

-There is a problem in the classroom?

-Yes.

-Expand on that.

0:45:090:45:13

Sometimes, if you walk into the schoolyard

0:45:130:45:17

you would be confused whether it is a Welsh school or an English school.

0:45:170:45:22

The front row.

0:45:230:45:25

I have been raised speaking Welsh and I have taken Welsh at A-level.

0:45:250:45:29

There are some people who I turn to English inside the school

0:45:290:45:33

and outside.

0:45:330:45:35

I think it is the habit and I think that is a mistake

0:45:350:45:37

in the way people are taught Welsh.

0:45:370:45:40

There are pupils who are in the sixth form who can't speak

0:45:400:45:42

Welsh fluently and have difficulties.

0:45:420:45:46

Unlike Megan, and we attend the same school,

0:45:460:45:50

I think that the Welsh is being used as too much of a punishment.

0:45:500:45:55

People will see it as something awful.

0:45:550:45:59

We only have a few minutes left.

0:45:590:46:02

-How about you?

-I totally disagree with this.

0:46:020:46:07

I think it is cool to speak Welsh.

0:46:070:46:10

It is unique to us and we should respect language and think,

0:46:100:46:14

it is cool, that person over there

0:46:140:46:16

can't understand what we are saying.

0:46:160:46:18

Many thanks. How about you?

0:46:180:46:21

In my opinion the true problem is people come home

0:46:230:46:27

and watched English programmes on television,

0:46:270:46:30

and listen to English radio stations.

0:46:300:46:33

-The media...

-Radio Cymru, Post Prynhawn, five o'clock every day.

0:46:330:46:37

Especially the problems that Radio Cymru have been having recently.

0:46:380:46:43

The media is quite weak.

0:46:430:46:45

Many thanks. How about you.

0:46:450:46:50

I agree. I think it is cool to speak Welsh

0:46:500:46:53

but a lot of children have been forced to speak Welsh in school.

0:46:530:46:57

If you are forced to do something,

0:46:570:46:59

the natural thing is to fight against it.

0:46:590:47:02

That goes against making Welsh cool in schools.

0:47:020:47:08

How about you?

0:47:080:47:10

There is the danger that Welsh is turning into a formal language.

0:47:100:47:14

We are being forced to speak it in schools

0:47:140:47:17

and there isn't enough emphasis on using it every day

0:47:170:47:21

especially in a big city.

0:47:210:47:23

People spoke formal Latin for generations

0:47:230:47:27

and yet it still died out because people don't use it.

0:47:270:47:30

I have to say if I had power I would ask S4C

0:47:300:47:33

for another 15 minutes to discuss the topic.

0:47:330:47:36

There are so many of you wanting to contribute.

0:47:360:47:38

Panel, you have to be short.

0:47:380:47:41

Maybe we need to more television programmes.

0:47:410:47:44

So people all over the world can become familiar with Welsh.

0:47:440:47:48

Very quickly.

0:47:480:47:50

More opportunities to use Welsh outside schools.

0:47:500:47:53

More opportunities to use it in the community.

0:47:530:47:57

Little things like badges that told you who could speak Welsh.

0:47:570:48:01

I think the audience is wrong.

0:48:010:48:03

Welsh is losing ground where Welsh education is not available.

0:48:030:48:07

Places like Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion.

0:48:070:48:10

Cardiff, Gwynedd, the South East Wales is very strong.

0:48:100:48:14

There we go. That is a subject for a whole programme.

0:48:140:48:17

Look at those hands up. I am sorry.

0:48:170:48:19

Thank you very much and the panel for your contributions.

0:48:190:48:22

That is all for tonight.

0:48:220:48:26

We will be back next week in Ystrad Rhondda. Goodbye.

0:48:260:48:28

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