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On our panel tonight, political commentator, Gareth Hughes, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:28 | |
the Chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones, | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
the accountant and Tory, Harri Lloyd Davies | 0:00:31 | 0:00:35 | |
and Cardiff University lecturer, Simon Brooks. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
Give them a warm welcome. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:41 | 0:00:43 | |
Good evening and welcome to another episode of Pawb a'i Farn. | 0:00:54 | 0:00:59 | |
I never get tired of saying that. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:01 | |
We are in Cardiff Bay and in the most striking building | 0:01:01 | 0:01:06 | |
we'll be broadcasting from this year. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
We've invited an audience of young people to the Senedd | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
including students, school pupils and those making a living in the capital. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:20 | |
It's an opportunity for the younger generation to have their say. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
Here are the addresses if you want to get in touch, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
especially if you want to come to one of our next two shows | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
in Ystrad Rhondda and Carmarthen. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:32 | |
What will we be discussing tonight? | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
Let's get our first question from Ben. What is your question? | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
People have been shocked by the horsemeat scandal. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:44 | |
How can it be prevented from entering the food chain? | 0:01:44 | 0:01:48 | |
People have been shocked by the horsemeat scandal. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
How can it be prevented from entering the food chain, | 0:01:51 | 0:01:56 | |
or being called beef! | 0:01:56 | 0:01:58 | |
Harri Lloyd Davies. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
It's important for us to understand where our food comes from. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:06 | |
If you're not happy that Tesco or wherever is not safe, | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
then go down to the local butcher | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
and they will know exactly where the meat has come from, even which farm. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
It's safer to buy local produce. That is the easiest thing to do. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
It's also important to remember that we don't have much choice sometimes. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:28 | |
That's why local authorities across Wales need to make sure | 0:02:28 | 0:02:33 | |
that they carry out assessments on their meat suppliers | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
to make sure it's healthy, and is beef rather than horsemeat. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:45 | |
Helen Mary Jones. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:46 | |
I think it's important that Harri accepts that part of the problem | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
is that the Food Standards Agency has had budget cuts. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:55 | |
They don't have as much power to start inquiries, | 0:02:55 | 0:02:59 | |
without someone complaining in the first place. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
But I do agree that the food chain has to be sorted out. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
If you look at one of the cases, | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
there were eight steps between the farm and Findus. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
Seven different countries. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
Even if it's not deliberate, | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
you can see a lot of problems arising. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
I do agree with the idea of local produce, but that can be expensive. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:26 | |
We need more investment in developing local co-operatives | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
where people can buy from local farms | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
but not as expensive as a local butcher, which can be pricey. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:40 | |
But we have to face facts. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
Food can be expensive. We have to be ready to pay more. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:46 | |
We have this obsession of buying food as cheaply as possible. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
It's OK for middle-class people to say that, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:53 | |
who can spend more on having Sunday lunch at home | 0:03:53 | 0:03:58 | |
and not going out but many families are struggling. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:03 | |
What I'd like to see, and Plaid Cymru has been calling for this, | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
is more cookery lessons at school so that people understand how to cook. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:13 | |
I've seen good examples of things like that happening in Llanelli | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
-the other communities as well. -I think that is a good point. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
The cheapest meat at the butcher's is usually offal. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
It's cheap and tasty but you never buy it in the supermarket. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:29 | |
But what about Helen Mary Jones' point | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
that the Food Standards Agency has been broken up. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:36 | |
There are a lot of problems. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
We don't know how long this has been going on. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
-In Ireland... -But your Government has given the agency less power? | 0:04:42 | 0:04:48 | |
I don't know if less power is the problem. They just haven't... | 0:04:48 | 0:04:51 | |
-It's a simple fact... -This has been going on for years. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
They have taken power away from the Food Standards Agency | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
and given it to the Agriculture Department in Westminster. | 0:04:58 | 0:05:02 | |
We also need to ask, where has the Welsh Government been in this? | 0:05:02 | 0:05:07 | |
We know that food safety has been devolved | 0:05:07 | 0:05:11 | |
and the Food Standards Agency is partly answerable to the Assembly. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
I'd like to ask, what have they been doing? | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
We might get the answer from Gareth Hughes. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
I don't think there's a problem. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
No problem? | 0:05:24 | 0:05:26 | |
I was in Verona two years ago | 0:05:26 | 0:05:29 | |
and I ate donkey meat and it was very tasty. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:32 | |
The problem is that we have a tradition of eating some things | 0:05:32 | 0:05:38 | |
but not other things. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
Horsemeat is cheap, it's tasty, | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
and I don't see a problem. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
The only problem is that we don't label them properly. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:50 | |
So there is a problem. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:52 | |
The reason that problem has arisen | 0:05:52 | 0:05:54 | |
is because we've run down local government. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
The local government went round abattoirs and assessed them | 0:05:58 | 0:06:03 | |
but that has stopped now. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
We've made cuts. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:08 | |
If we expect high standards, we have to pay people to supervise it. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:15 | |
We're not paying. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
If we're not ready to do that, we shouldn't have this discussion. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:22 | |
Simon Brooks. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:23 | |
I quite like the idea of turning to the French way of eating. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
More horsemeat! | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
-Have you ever tried it? -I've never tried horse. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
-I'd like to. -Or donkey? | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
No, or cat or dog, or many other interesting foods. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:44 | |
From our point of view, what's interesting to me, | 0:06:44 | 0:06:49 | |
We have to have more regulation of the food industry, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
more visits by the Food Standards Agency, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
but I do think that we have to shoulder the blame as customers. | 0:06:56 | 0:07:01 | |
I don't think that we can use this argument | 0:07:01 | 0:07:05 | |
that we don't have enough money to make choices. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
Every crisis in the food industry... | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
But Helen Mary Jones says it's OK for the middle-class to say that. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:18 | |
It does hit people who are unemployed, people on low incomes, | 0:07:18 | 0:07:23 | |
but there are many wealthy people in this country who can choose. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:27 | |
Eating local produce is good for the environment, | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
it's good for the economy and our health. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
Many farmers speak Welsh so it's good for the language. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
Tick, tick, tick. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
The Welsh Government should have a campaign for people to shop locally. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:44 | |
But the customer has suffered and is disappointed with this news? | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
Well, if they don't like eating horsemeat, that's true. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
It's important that we don't set any more regulations | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
on the farmers and the factories. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:58 | |
At the end of the day, 99% of people follow the regulations. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:04 | |
It's just a minority that fail to follow the regulations. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:08 | |
So you need to have strict regulations. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
Yes, they have to be strict and they have to be followed. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:17 | |
We will need more regulations. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
I don't think we need more. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
We just need to make sure that the ones we have are followed. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
Following a scandal like this, there will be more regulation. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
That won't help Welsh farmers and people who work in the industry. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:35 | |
The way to help Welsh farmers | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
is to eat Welsh produce and shop locally. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
We need more regulation. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
But we have to buy from local food producers. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
In that way we support our local economy, | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
our language and our health. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
So people need help to gain that access. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
If you live in the South Wales valleys, | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
on a housing estate at the top of a hill, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
you can't even afford to go to Tesco to buy food, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
not to mention a market. | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
We have to make sure that everyone has access to good local food. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
A lot of nonsense is spoken about this good local food. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
When I go out shopping to buy a meal, | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
I want to buy something that I can have there and then. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
I will buy a lasagne, I don't know what's in it, but I'll eat it. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:26 | |
That's the important thing... | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
I'm sure you don't want it full of horse antibiotics! | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
We're not all going to be master chefs. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
We buy a packet, we put it in the microwave and that is our meal. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:44 | |
Most people eat like that. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:46 | |
-Do you worry about the contents? -No, not at all! | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
I'm still here! | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
-You don't read the labels? -No, I'm not worried. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
It's the picture. If it looks tasty, I'll buy it. | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
Can you help me, audience members? | 0:10:00 | 0:10:05 | |
How do you shop locally in Cardiff? | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
Are there small butchers in the capital city? | 0:10:08 | 0:10:13 | |
One example in Cardiff is the market itself. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
You have a local butcher, | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
people who sell fruit and vegetables. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
They can tell you where the meat has come from. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:30 | |
It's not always more expensive. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
People expect it to be, but it is not always. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
Let me turn the audience. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
If horsemeat has gone into the food chain, | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
what else has gone in that we are not aware of? | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
Fair point. At the back. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:49 | |
As someone who looked forward to eating horsemeat in Switzerland... | 0:10:49 | 0:10:53 | |
-You've eaten it? -Yes. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:57 | |
I'm worried that the supermarkets | 0:10:57 | 0:10:59 | |
are not having the finger pointed at them. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
They have the big margins. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:05 | |
I think they have a responsibility to put money into the system. | 0:11:05 | 0:11:10 | |
They're to blame because they don't monitor what's going into the food. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:15 | |
-So you have eaten horsemeat? -Yes. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
Who else has eaten horsemeat? | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
Really? What was it like? | 0:11:21 | 0:11:25 | |
I think... I think it tastes better than... | 0:11:25 | 0:11:30 | |
I think it's my favourite meat. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
Your favourite?! What does it taste like? | 0:11:32 | 0:11:36 | |
A bit like steak. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
-What does it taste like? -It isn't something odd. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
It just tastes like meat. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
Where I live, in Roath in Cardiff, we have plenty of butchers, | 0:11:45 | 0:11:51 | |
but as a student with a limited income, | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
it's difficult to buy things locally. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
I agree with Helen Mary | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
that it has to be an affordable way to buy the local produce. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:05 | |
It is difficult. | 0:12:05 | 0:12:07 | |
Somebody living in the valleys, they don't all have the choice. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:11 | |
You have to strengthen the system so that there is a Co-op. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:14 | |
That will strengthen the communities in Wales. | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
Ben, you asked the question, how would you answer it? | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
I think it's important that people know what's in their food. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:28 | |
I think there's a big responsibility... | 0:12:28 | 0:12:32 | |
on the people who... | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
Yes? | 0:12:37 | 0:12:38 | |
We have to know what's in the food. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
Something has to be done about it. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
You are totally different to Gareth Hughes. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:47 | |
And one more in the front row. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
I think there's a wider debate here. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:55 | |
People across the world are starving | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
and there are warnings that there isn't enough food. | 0:12:57 | 0:13:02 | |
Does the panel think the Government should step in | 0:13:02 | 0:13:06 | |
and look into introducing different foods in Britain | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
due to that problem? | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
I want to ask a question before we end this discussion. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
Is it time to devolve the Food Standards Agency's power | 0:13:16 | 0:13:23 | |
so that this happens here? | 0:13:23 | 0:13:26 | |
There was an opportunity | 0:13:26 | 0:13:28 | |
when the Food Standards Agency was established | 0:13:28 | 0:13:31 | |
for the Welsh Government to have an agency of its own. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:36 | |
-It's a pity... -Could we do better? | 0:13:36 | 0:13:41 | |
Is it being devolved a good thing in this case? | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
I don't think that's the reason. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
We've seen pictures all over the world | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
of our food industry in the dock over the last week. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:56 | |
This will hit the Welsh food industry for years to come. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:01 | |
We have a lot of work to do to rebuild our food industry. | 0:14:01 | 0:14:06 | |
In a sentence. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:07 | |
Yes, we should be devolving everything. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:11 | |
It is silly that we have things in the agriculture industry | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
which have been devolved and other things that have not. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:18 | |
People are confused. | 0:14:18 | 0:14:19 | |
No, I don't think it should be devolved. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
We should send it to Europe. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:24 | |
The problem is spread over seven or eight countries. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:30 | |
You can't control that from Wales. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
These food standards issues should be dealt with by Europe. | 0:14:33 | 0:14:39 | |
Many thanks to the panel and the audience. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
Let's move on to the next question now. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:47 | |
Unemployment figures for youngsters in Britain are worryingly high. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:51 | |
How would the panel improve the situation? | 0:14:51 | 0:14:54 | |
There we are, a question about your own generation. Thank you. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
Unemployment figures for young people in Britain are worryingly high. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
How would the panel improve the situation? Helen Mary Jones? | 0:15:01 | 0:15:05 | |
Firstly, Plaid Cymru would agree with you | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
that this is one of the main problems facing us as a country. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
Some older people, like myself, who grew up in the 1980s | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
will remember that we had a generation which was forgotten. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:18 | |
If you are out of work for a period of two or three years, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:22 | |
it can become very difficult to get back in. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
That is why we in Plaid Cymru have a scheme to create green jobs. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
When we were in talks with the Welsh Government here | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
about whether we would support their budget, | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
we asked for 10,000 new apprenticeships | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
to give young people an opportunity to come in to the market. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:41 | |
What are these green jobs? | 0:15:41 | 0:15:43 | |
There is a green plan to develop, | 0:15:43 | 0:15:45 | |
within the water industry, for example, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
we aren't doing enough of it. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:51 | |
I cannot go into detail, | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
but there is a document with all the figures and costings in it. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
-Will this help the youngsters who cannot find a job? -It is one example. | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
It is not going to be an answer to the whole problem. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:03 | |
But I believe what's so frustrating | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
is that we know the Welsh Government doesn't have | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
all the tools that it should have | 0:16:08 | 0:16:10 | |
when it comes to taxes and so on to create jobs. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
But it's very frustrating for us | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
to see that they're not using the powers that they have. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
They could invest in capital projects | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
which will create temporary jobs in the construction industry. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:27 | |
And spend large sums of money which aren't there? | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
The money is there, but it depends on how you spend it. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
Nobody said it was easy. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:35 | |
Thanks to Harri and his crew, money is tight. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
But the question is, how will we invest that money? | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
We in Plaid Cymru believe it is important that we | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
invest in the long-term and not wait for England to give us the powers. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
-We must act now. -Helen, thank you. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
I'll come to you shortly, Harri. Gareth Hughes. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
I don't think you can deal with it by using little projects | 0:16:53 | 0:16:57 | |
as the Welsh Government is doing. | 0:16:57 | 0:16:59 | |
-So you agree with Helen, we need large projects? -Yes, well, no. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:04 | |
What is needed... What this country has done is crazy. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:09 | |
At a time of recession, you don't make cuts upon cuts. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:14 | |
What you should do is spend and spend. | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
That is the only way to get the economy to grow | 0:17:18 | 0:17:23 | |
and that is the answer in the long-term. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
The economy has to grow so that people can have work. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:28 | |
I can see Harri smiling without having to look at him. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
Which Government spent...? | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
His Government's policy, what can we expect? | 0:17:34 | 0:17:38 | |
Living standards have been down since 2005. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:45 | |
Also, there are no prospects. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
As Sir Mervyn King said yesterday, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:50 | |
there are no prospects for economic growth | 0:17:50 | 0:17:55 | |
on this side of the next election. | 0:17:55 | 0:18:01 | |
That is why he is in difficulty. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:02 | |
The first thing, unfortunately, is the cuts are only just starting. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:07 | |
-People say the cuts have been too harsh. -It's going to get worse. -Yes. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
It's easy for you to say we should have more debt, | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
but you must remember that the people in this audience | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
will have to pay off that debt in 20 years time. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
You cannot repay a debt unless you have money to repay it. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
That is the weakness. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:25 | |
You don't understand that you must inflate the economy | 0:18:25 | 0:18:29 | |
in order to repay the debt. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:31 | |
You cannot repay a debt by making more and more cuts. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
We're not cutting money that we create, | 0:18:35 | 0:18:37 | |
we're cutting money that we don't have. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
All the money was spent under the previous Labour Government. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
The money has gone. Now, we have to try to rebuild the economy. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
We're starting to see it. | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
Confidence is beginning to return to the economy. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:51 | |
We're not growing quickly enough and we need more growth. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:54 | |
That is the way we create jobs for young people. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
Will that growth come from further cuts? | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
You said we haven't seen the worst of it. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
What can we do? There's no money there. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
We don't want more debt, we can't afford the debt we have. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:05 | |
We're going to do what Barack Obama has done in the US | 0:19:05 | 0:19:09 | |
which is borrowing to invest, not borrowing to pay benefits | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
which is what your Government is having to do. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
By returning to you points, Gareth. I would not disagree for one second, | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
but this is where we are. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
We have a Welsh Government and they should do more. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
For every young person entering a job, | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
the 10,000 apprenticeships we have worked out with the Government | 0:19:27 | 0:19:31 | |
won't change everything for everyone but it will change the lives | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
of those 10,000 people and that is worth doing. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:38 | |
-Simon Brooks? -I don't believe we should be taking this | 0:19:38 | 0:19:42 | |
in the direction of a discussion on a macro economic policy. | 0:19:42 | 0:19:47 | |
The truth is, our society is uneven and unequal | 0:19:47 | 0:19:51 | |
whatever the economic situation. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:53 | |
We have seen basic maladministration when it comes to age. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:58 | |
We have transferred society's wealth from youngsters | 0:19:58 | 0:20:04 | |
to the baby boom generation, people of Dewi's age. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:09 | |
What we have done is to create a situation | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
where houses are available for the older generation | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
and jobs are available for the older generation. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
This recession is slightly different to the one in the 1980s. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
That is because we aren't throwing so many people on the rubbish tip | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
as we did then, but what we're not doing is recruiting. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:29 | |
What's really interesting is that when you look around Europe, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:32 | |
countries have different rates of youth unemployment. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:37 | |
You have 50% in Spain, 20% in Britain and 10% in Germany. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:43 | |
How have they reached that figure of 10% in Germany? | 0:20:43 | 0:20:47 | |
If you agree with Helen, | 0:20:47 | 0:20:48 | |
then they have done this by concentrating on people | 0:20:48 | 0:20:52 | |
who aren't going to university by creating apprenticeships | 0:20:52 | 0:20:56 | |
which lead those people in a structured way towards a job. | 0:20:56 | 0:21:00 | |
It's interesting to hear a university lecturer saying | 0:21:00 | 0:21:03 | |
there is too much emphasis on going to university. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
That is often the only aim. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:08 | |
No, you should go to university if you want to go to university. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
But there are young people who aren't going to university | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
and we need to think about them. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:16 | |
Let's hear from our young people. Is this a worrying time for you? | 0:21:16 | 0:21:20 | |
I'll start here. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
Yes, Harri made a point there, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
that confidence was coming back into the economy. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:33 | |
David Cameron and George Osborne have been saying that since 2010. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:37 | |
We can see that the economy is flatlining. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:39 | |
The only way that you can move forwards is, as Gareth said, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
by investing money and by investing money in young people. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
Without that, as Helen said, you're going to create | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
another generation which is forgotten. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
You'll create a vicious circle. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
2010 will be like the 1980s. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
You asked the question, is this a worrying time for you? | 0:21:54 | 0:22:00 | |
Are you worried? Are you in college or school? Where are you studying? | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
-I'm at school. -Which school? -Llanhari. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
We've heard the name, Llanhari. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
I'm sure we'll hear more later on. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:09 | |
Is it a worrying time for you? | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
Yes, the question is, are there enough resources for us | 0:22:11 | 0:22:17 | |
to find jobs these days? | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
Also, if we go to university, | 0:22:19 | 0:22:20 | |
how can we afford to go without getting a job? | 0:22:20 | 0:22:24 | |
Yes, we'll return to that. You had your hand up. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
I believe the problem stems from education. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
Whether the economy is growing and improving, | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
if there are jobs out there, does the younger generation | 0:22:33 | 0:22:37 | |
have the necessary skills to get these new jobs? | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
Do we have the skills in the developing sciences | 0:22:40 | 0:22:46 | |
to get those jobs in the long-term? | 0:22:46 | 0:22:48 | |
Do you get enough advice, in school or at university, concerning careers? | 0:22:48 | 0:22:54 | |
How much emphasis is on that side of things? | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
There is quite a bit of emphasis | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
on thinking about what you want to do in future, | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
but there isn't much emphasis on what skills you would require | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
to get into those jobs. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:07 | |
They talk about getting grades, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:09 | |
but not about the extra-curricular things. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:11 | |
There we are. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:12 | |
Right at the back, the University of Glamorgan, if I remember correctly. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
Yes, I believe there is a lot of emphasis on subjects | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
such as medicine and going to study medicine and mathematics. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:24 | |
I don't believe there is enough emphasis on people | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
who want to go into the arts or education, who would like to teach. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:32 | |
I believe we need to look back at secondary schools | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
and help at that stage. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:37 | |
If I can cut across you, shouldn't we be putting more emphasis | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
on those subjects where jobs are available at the end? | 0:23:42 | 0:23:47 | |
Yes, but help also needs to be given to those people | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
who want to go into areas where there aren't as many jobs. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:55 | |
They also need more attention. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:57 | |
OK. Anyone else? | 0:23:57 | 0:23:59 | |
What about Simon's point that not enough attention is being given | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
to apprenticeships as there would have been at your time, Gareth? | 0:24:02 | 0:24:07 | |
That is true, but in order to have apprenticeships, | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
you need to have companies to run them. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
If the economy is flatlining, and it isn't growing at all, | 0:24:13 | 0:24:18 | |
there's no point having that education | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
because we have seen a decline in the economy overall. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
This happened especially under Mrs Thatcher. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
Everybody thought London was where all the growth would take place | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
and that what we manufactured in factories across Wales and England | 0:24:33 | 0:24:38 | |
wasn't important. Apprenticeships weren't important. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:41 | |
-How can we change that emphasis? -We must change the economy. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:45 | |
But first, you have to inflate that economy. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:49 | |
There's no point to any of these measures. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:51 | |
You keep returning to that point. It's like a reel. | 0:24:51 | 0:24:55 | |
We have seen this before. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
Japan did the same thing over the years and there was no growth there. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:04 | |
Now, they are reconsidering the situation. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
Governance doesn't grow economies. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
Small companies grow economies at the end of the day. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:12 | |
But they must have the confidence to do that. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
-They must have the confidence. -The confidence is returning. | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
Mervyn King has said. | 0:25:18 | 0:25:19 | |
What is important, what we should be doing | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
is to inspire young people to start small businesses. | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
That is the way we will get the economy to grow. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
These people will then begin to employ other young people. | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
What your Government hasn't done is force banks to lend money | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
to young people who want to start businesses. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
You are right to say that the Government doesn't grow the economy. | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
But the Government creates the conditions in which | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
the economy can grow or vice versa. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
But interest rates are as low as they have ever been | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
and they are much lower in Britain than almost everywhere else. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:53 | |
But you need the banks to lend money. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
The truth is, unemployment among young people has been higher | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
than the norm in other parts of Europe in Britain for decades. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
-You said this before, but you didn't explain why? -Why? | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
It's because in other countries they have a clear pathway | 0:26:06 | 0:26:10 | |
which takes people from school to work. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
If you don't go to university in Britain, that pathway isn't clear. | 0:26:12 | 0:26:17 | |
Let's hear from a few more people in our audience. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
I would like to come back to what Gareth said about apprenticeships. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:25 | |
I have friends who left school at 16 | 0:26:25 | 0:26:29 | |
and they got apprenticeships at places like Wylfa. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
Some of my friends now earn around £40,000 | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
after working for about five years. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
I have a law degree. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:42 | |
I don't know how long it will take for me to earn that amount of money. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:48 | |
That's very interesting. Where did I see another hand up. Here we are. | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
I believe the unemployment problem comes from the fact that | 0:26:52 | 0:26:56 | |
too many employers ask for experience. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
But where are we expected to get that experience | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
if it is our first job? It's a vicious circle. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:06 | |
Yes, and in the back row! | 0:27:06 | 0:27:07 | |
Going back to the economic point. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
When a recession takes place, | 0:27:11 | 0:27:13 | |
doesn't the panel believe | 0:27:13 | 0:27:16 | |
that it is the Government's responsibility | 0:27:16 | 0:27:20 | |
to restore confidence by investing in things. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
When the private sector loses confidence, | 0:27:24 | 0:27:27 | |
shouldn't the Government increase spending and funds? | 0:27:27 | 0:27:35 | |
We had another hand up. We'll come back to you. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:37 | |
Going back to the point about experience. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:39 | |
The education system in Germany | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
has a 60-day work experience period every year. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:46 | |
We only have a week. | 0:27:46 | 0:27:48 | |
That is why the rate of unemployment among young people is much lower. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:56 | |
Harri Lloyd Davies, you can end this topic of discussion. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:58 | |
Where do you find the confidence for young people | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
to establish small businesses as you've suggested they should do? | 0:28:01 | 0:28:04 | |
How do we give back confidence to them? I believe it's growing. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:09 | |
You can see it happening all the time. | 0:28:09 | 0:28:11 | |
You can see it in the CBI and the South Wales Chamber of Commerce. | 0:28:11 | 0:28:14 | |
They all show small businesses | 0:28:14 | 0:28:16 | |
are starting to have more confidence in the future. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
I believe that will improve over the next year or two. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
With those words, and the noise we heard from the corner, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:25 | |
it's time for us to have a break. | 0:28:25 | 0:28:27 | |
Join us again in Cardiff Bay in a couple of minutes. | 0:28:27 | 0:28:30 | |
Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Cardiff Bay. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
We have an audience made up of young people from the area. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
Let's go to our third question. | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
It comes from Iwan Hughes. What is your question? | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
The number of applications from Wales | 0:28:56 | 0:28:58 | |
for university places has fallen. | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
Is this a sign that the Government's tuition fee policy has failed? | 0:29:00 | 0:29:04 | |
Iwan has asked, | 0:29:04 | 0:29:06 | |
the number of applications from Wales for university places has fallen. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
Is this a sign that the Government's tuition fee policy has failed? | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
Iwan, what do you believe? | 0:29:14 | 0:29:16 | |
I believe that with the country in its current economic state, | 0:29:16 | 0:29:20 | |
fewer people are going to go to university. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:24 | |
-What about you personally? -I intend to go to university, yes. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
-So you are in the sixth form? -Yes. -Which school? -Plasmawr. -There we are. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:32 | |
Simon Brooks, as someone from the academic world, | 0:29:32 | 0:29:34 | |
what do you make of this question? | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
I don't think it's failed. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:38 | |
Where would we be without this policy from the viewpoint | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
of young Welsh people? | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
We'd have people from wealthier backgrounds that currently | 0:29:43 | 0:29:48 | |
attend universities, going on to establishments in Wales. | 0:29:48 | 0:29:53 | |
It hasn't failed. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:55 | |
But it hasn't attracted as much as someone might hope. | 0:29:55 | 0:29:57 | |
From my understanding, this year a percentage in Wales had dropped. | 0:29:57 | 0:30:05 | |
But saying that it didn't drop that much last year | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
and it's possible what we've seen following the Government's policy | 0:30:09 | 0:30:12 | |
is that drop had been held back for 12 months in terms of... | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
-You think there's no need to worry? -I'm saying this. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:21 | |
The situation would be much, much worse without this policy. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:26 | |
But I think the policy needs to be changed. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
I don't think we can support it in the long-term in Wales. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:34 | |
I think it's too expensive. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:36 | |
I also think Welsh universities are under pressure especially | 0:30:36 | 0:30:41 | |
with the number of young people studying in England. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
I think this policy should be restricted to young people | 0:30:44 | 0:30:48 | |
who attend universities in Wales. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:52 | |
To return to how it was for a time. That's how it worked. | 0:30:53 | 0:30:56 | |
I don't think Wales should be like East Germany, | 0:30:56 | 0:31:00 | |
if you want to leave Wales, great, you can do that. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
But I don't think it's up to the Welsh tax payer | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
to pay you to do that. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
For those youngsters who want to study a subject that's not available | 0:31:09 | 0:31:14 | |
in Welsh universities you wouldn't sponsor them | 0:31:14 | 0:31:16 | |
unless they stay in Wales. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:18 | |
We should be developing those courses in Wales. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:21 | |
That's part of developing a sensible higher education system | 0:31:21 | 0:31:25 | |
in our country. I don't think there is an argument | 0:31:25 | 0:31:28 | |
for paying young people from Wales to study in Nottingham | 0:31:28 | 0:31:32 | |
or places like that and for them to then live there | 0:31:32 | 0:31:35 | |
for the rest of their lives. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:36 | |
They receive £27,000 and then won't contribute to our economy. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:39 | |
I think it's too early to tell if the policy has failed. | 0:31:39 | 0:31:44 | |
I think it was a poor policy in the first place. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
If the course isn't worth £9,000 a year, why study it? | 0:31:48 | 0:31:51 | |
If you want a job at the end of it the job should be good enough | 0:31:51 | 0:31:55 | |
to pay for the course you attended. | 0:31:55 | 0:31:57 | |
So you're saying no financial support at all? | 0:31:57 | 0:31:59 | |
We're looking at maybe this policy costing £1.5 billion. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:03 | |
-We've talked about this. -What do you suggest instead? | 0:32:03 | 0:32:08 | |
People should pay the same as it is in England and Scotland | 0:32:08 | 0:32:13 | |
-and everywhere else. -It isn't the same in Scotland. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:17 | |
Sorry, not Scotland. Exactly the same as in England. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
I'd like to see that money being put into people | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
starting up their own businesses or into apprenticeships. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
That would be better. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:28 | |
Right, hands are going up like a forest in the back row. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
What do you think? | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
Harri says you expect to get... | 0:32:35 | 0:32:37 | |
..job at the end of your course or whatever. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:42 | |
That's not the purpose of education to me. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:45 | |
I see education as a way of expanding my horizons | 0:32:45 | 0:32:49 | |
and to see more of the world and to understand about it. | 0:32:49 | 0:32:54 | |
But don't you want a job at the end? | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
As the gentleman said earlier about a degree in law, there's no sense | 0:32:56 | 0:33:03 | |
doing a degree economically these days because everyone has a degree. | 0:33:04 | 0:33:08 | |
Everyone who's in the middle classes | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
wants to be part of the that world. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
They're going to get a degree. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
Everyone's following the same path. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:20 | |
-So there's no point gaining a degree? -Well, no. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
-Economically there's no point at the moment. -Back to the back row. | 0:33:23 | 0:33:27 | |
There should be more emphasis on learning more. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:30 | |
Yes, right, thank you. You in the back. | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
What Harri said about investing in businesses, | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
if you don't invest in the education of these young people, | 0:33:39 | 0:33:43 | |
they establish businesses here | 0:33:43 | 0:33:46 | |
and they need the training from the universities. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
The only way many of them from poorer backgrounds can gain | 0:33:50 | 0:33:54 | |
this education is through the Government policy. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:59 | |
You can't invest in businesses that haven't been set up by those | 0:33:59 | 0:34:03 | |
going to university. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:04 | |
What about those who are hoping to attend universities in Scotland | 0:34:04 | 0:34:08 | |
or England? Simon suggests you shouldn't be getting that grant. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
I agree with the idea that Welsh people shouldn't pay for those | 0:34:12 | 0:34:18 | |
-who won't even contribute to our economy. -Maybe they'll return. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:22 | |
Exactly, but it comes back to the point, | 0:34:22 | 0:34:25 | |
are we part of the UK or are we a stand-alone country? | 0:34:25 | 0:34:28 | |
At the moment we're part of the UK | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
-so I think it's part of the wider economy. -Thank you. Which school? | 0:34:30 | 0:34:35 | |
-Llangynidr. -I have to be fair, we haven't had that name here before. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:41 | |
Back to Cerith. | 0:34:41 | 0:34:42 | |
What I find extremely sad is that Harri | 0:34:42 | 0:34:47 | |
and his ilk still have the same opinion where if they had their way | 0:34:47 | 0:34:53 | |
only the privileged would have access to high education. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:57 | |
But I also agree with Simon, if we are going to finance people | 0:34:57 | 0:35:01 | |
from Wales to go to university they should remain in Wales. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:05 | |
But when it comes to veterinary sciences... | 0:35:05 | 0:35:08 | |
But what if you want to be a vet? | 0:35:08 | 0:35:10 | |
I have a friend who's studying in Liverpool | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
and she couldn't study to become a vet in Wales. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:17 | |
She had to move to Liverpool. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:19 | |
-But I do think those courses have to developed in Wales. -We could... | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
Hang on Simon. Let's have a voice from here. I take it you disagree? | 0:35:22 | 0:35:26 | |
Yes. Some English universities are of a higher standard | 0:35:26 | 0:35:30 | |
than some universities in Wales. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:32 | |
You expect those pupils who have the opportunity | 0:35:32 | 0:35:36 | |
to go to high standard universities to stay in Wales | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
just so they can benefit financially. | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
That's not fair on individuals. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
-Simon Brooks. -I'll answer both points. | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
First about the subjects like veterinary sciences. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:51 | |
We could create a temporary list of subjects that aren't | 0:35:51 | 0:35:54 | |
taught in Wales and they can be separated. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:57 | |
But what about the point, there are better universities available | 0:35:57 | 0:36:01 | |
in England and you're preventing Welsh students from going there? | 0:36:01 | 0:36:04 | |
Welsh students have every right to attend any university in the world. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
From Harvard to Cardiff or wherever. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
But should the taxpayer from Wales, which is one of the poorest | 0:36:11 | 0:36:16 | |
countries in Western Europe, be paying for that? | 0:36:16 | 0:36:20 | |
I think that's appropriate in Wales | 0:36:20 | 0:36:22 | |
because the young people then re-invest in the economy. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:26 | |
But people who go to Harvard could be coming back top Wales. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:31 | |
It's not our place as Welsh tax payers to pay people | 0:36:31 | 0:36:35 | |
to leave our country and take the skills elsewhere. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
-But they can come back. -Hang on, Gareth Hughes. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
Things have changed since your day. | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
I went out of the country, I went to LSE. | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
Caernarfon County Council, as it was, paid for me to go there. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:55 | |
I think there is a lack of confidence in Wales. | 0:36:55 | 0:37:00 | |
We can't be narrow-minded and staying in a our own Square Mile. | 0:37:00 | 0:37:04 | |
That is not something young people want. | 0:37:04 | 0:37:09 | |
I was interviewed by young people in my local college, | 0:37:09 | 0:37:13 | |
Dwyfor Meirionnydd College. | 0:37:13 | 0:37:15 | |
I asked them if they wanted to stay in that area? | 0:37:15 | 0:37:17 | |
It's important to keep the Welsh language alive. | 0:37:17 | 0:37:21 | |
The majority of young people at Ygol Dwyfor Meirionnydd... | 0:37:21 | 0:37:24 | |
sorry, Dwyfor Meirionnydd College said they wanted to go | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
to the big cities. I don't blame them. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
I don't blame the people of Wales going out of Wales | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
to wherever they want. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:36 | |
We want a wide community, that is not narrow. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
That's what's going to happen if we restrict ourselves to Wales. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:43 | |
The debate we have had tonight proves | 0:37:43 | 0:37:47 | |
how difficult the situation is. | 0:37:47 | 0:37:49 | |
The point that you make that maybe their courses in Wales | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
aren't of a high enough standard, we have to ask the question why? | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
Do our universities respond to our students' needs? | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
I understands Simon's situation, is it fair, | 0:37:59 | 0:38:04 | |
we are going to seek people going out to study everywhere, | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
but if I run a hair dresser's in Llanelli, is it fair for me | 0:38:07 | 0:38:13 | |
to pay for you to go wherever you want? | 0:38:13 | 0:38:15 | |
I am very wary that if we go back to the situation | 0:38:15 | 0:38:19 | |
where only those from privileged backgrounds | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
are the only ones going to university. | 0:38:22 | 0:38:25 | |
We were the first country back in 1928, | 0:38:25 | 0:38:27 | |
Glamorgan Council gave the opportunity for young people | 0:38:27 | 0:38:31 | |
from working-class backgrounds to get a loan, it was not a grant, | 0:38:31 | 0:38:35 | |
I know it because my father was one of them. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:38 | |
But has this policy failed? | 0:38:38 | 0:38:40 | |
The policy has not failed. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:42 | |
If we look at the drop, it isn't as much in Wales as it was in England. | 0:38:42 | 0:38:47 | |
But there is a question about how sustainable it is. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
That is why we in Plaid Cymru in are holding national discussions | 0:38:51 | 0:38:55 | |
about what we can have as a sustainable way forward. | 0:38:55 | 0:38:59 | |
I want to go to the audience. Let's go to the back row. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:01 | |
About Simon's point, I don't understand, | 0:39:01 | 0:39:05 | |
that would not work if you stayed in a university in Wales. | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
Who is to say when you're 18 and going to university, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:14 | |
you don't know what you're going to do at the end of your degree. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
As it happens I went to a Welsh university, I graduated | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
and I moved to England to work. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:24 | |
I had no intention of doing that when I was 18, | 0:39:24 | 0:39:26 | |
I had no idea was going to move to England to work when I was 21. | 0:39:26 | 0:39:30 | |
That is where the jobs were. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:32 | |
So everyone should have this financial support? | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
With the financial support, | 0:39:35 | 0:39:37 | |
I don't know how you can say by investing in those | 0:39:37 | 0:39:40 | |
who are only going to remain in Welsh universities | 0:39:40 | 0:39:45 | |
that they will reinvest in Wales. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
When you're 18 you have no idea where you will end up. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:51 | |
-In front of you. -It is just as important to raise Wales's profile. | 0:39:51 | 0:39:57 | |
If somebody feels that they can make a name for themselves | 0:39:57 | 0:40:01 | |
in London, one to they then be raising Wales's profile | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
to say they are proud to come from Wales? | 0:40:04 | 0:40:08 | |
-So it is a good thing we go to other universities? -Yes. | 0:40:08 | 0:40:12 | |
-How about you in the back row? -I agree with you both. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
Rather than investing in Welsh universities | 0:40:15 | 0:40:19 | |
it would be better to invest in jobs so people can go abroad, | 0:40:19 | 0:40:22 | |
maybe to England and then return to jobs in Wales. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:26 | |
But there is no certainty that they will come back. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:28 | |
-If the jobs are here. -How about you? | 0:40:28 | 0:40:31 | |
I think everyone should have the right to attend | 0:40:31 | 0:40:33 | |
university in England. | 0:40:33 | 0:40:35 | |
Nobody is preventing you, but you won't have the same financial gain. | 0:40:35 | 0:40:40 | |
Wales depends on a lot of its money coming from England, | 0:40:40 | 0:40:44 | |
there isn't much prospects getting good jobs in Wales. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:49 | |
A lot of people are unemployed. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:51 | |
There are more jobs in England and you get better education there. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:56 | |
Harri Lloyd Davies suggests we should get rid of the policy altogether. | 0:40:57 | 0:41:02 | |
Everyone should pay for themselves. There was someone else here. | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
One thing that hasn't been touched upon is that the £9,000 per annum | 0:41:06 | 0:41:12 | |
price tag has been set by the Westminster Government. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:16 | |
It means students in England who are responsible for the cuts | 0:41:16 | 0:41:23 | |
in the number of students recruited by Welsh universities. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:27 | |
English universities don't have a cap on recruitment on those | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
students that get the higher grades. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
English universities have more freedom to recruit as they wish. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:37 | |
That creates a more difficult market | 0:41:37 | 0:41:39 | |
for Welsh universities to compete against. | 0:41:39 | 0:41:42 | |
What you make of that, Simon Brooks? | 0:41:42 | 0:41:44 | |
Not many people agree with you. Does anyone agree with you? | 0:41:45 | 0:41:50 | |
I think that we have to have confidence | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
in our own establishments. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:54 | |
People have the right to do what they wish with their lives. | 0:41:54 | 0:41:58 | |
I don't think there is an argument for us | 0:41:58 | 0:42:01 | |
to finance young people to leave the country | 0:42:01 | 0:42:04 | |
when we know what we need is young people to stay here. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:09 | |
You have a sentence. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:11 | |
I think it is important that we make sure that Welsh universities | 0:42:11 | 0:42:16 | |
get enough money. | 0:42:16 | 0:42:18 | |
If we send too many people out of Wales, | 0:42:18 | 0:42:22 | |
it is important that the universities are good enough | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
and people want to stay in Wales to study. | 0:42:25 | 0:42:28 | |
We have one more subject to discuss but first let's have a short break. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:34 | |
Welcome back to the Assembly building here in Cardiff Bay. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:51 | |
We have one more question to go in the programme. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
It is asked by Megan Jones. | 0:42:54 | 0:42:57 | |
How do you make sure the Welsh language is heard and used | 0:42:57 | 0:43:00 | |
outside of the classroom and in our communities? | 0:43:00 | 0:43:02 | |
A question that we discuss often on this programme. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
How do make sure the Welsh language is heard | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
and used outside the classroom and in our communities? | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
Let's start with Gareth Hughes. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
It is true that it is difficult to get people who attend Welsh schools | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
to use the Welsh language outside the classroom. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:25 | |
I have two daughters who went to a Welsh school, Cwm Rhymni, | 0:43:25 | 0:43:29 | |
and even with their friends who went to the same school, | 0:43:29 | 0:43:33 | |
after leaving school, they would speak English. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:37 | |
I think there's something wrong there. I am not sure what it is. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:41 | |
Speaking Welsh wasn't seen as cool. | 0:43:41 | 0:43:45 | |
If we want to discuss the Welsh language, | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
we don't want to discuss the language itself, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:53 | |
but what about concentrating on talking about things in Welsh. | 0:43:53 | 0:43:57 | |
Often enough, we have a debate about the future of the language. | 0:43:57 | 0:44:01 | |
In the magazines, there are articles and articles | 0:44:01 | 0:44:05 | |
about the Welsh language. | 0:44:05 | 0:44:07 | |
But what I want to know is, we should be discussing | 0:44:07 | 0:44:11 | |
a wide range of topics, perhaps more popular topics. | 0:44:11 | 0:44:15 | |
We are concentrating too much on the language | 0:44:15 | 0:44:20 | |
and not concentrating enough on using the language. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:24 | |
That is our failing as a nation. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:28 | |
We worry too much about the languages instead of using it. | 0:44:28 | 0:44:33 | |
Megan. | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
I hear people in school talking in English. | 0:44:36 | 0:44:39 | |
I think something needs to be done. | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
I don't agree with people speaking English after their parents chose | 0:44:42 | 0:44:47 | |
-for them to attend a Welsh school. -How can you change that? | 0:44:47 | 0:44:49 | |
You can't force people. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:54 | |
I think schools should give out stricter punishments. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
-Which school do you attend? -Plasmawr. | 0:44:58 | 0:45:00 | |
Let's move to the back. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
Shouldn't we look at the classroom before looking outside? | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
-There is a problem in the classroom? -Yes. -Expand on that. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:13 | |
Sometimes, if you walk into the schoolyard | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
you would be confused whether it is a Welsh school or an English school. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:22 | |
The front row. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
I have been raised speaking Welsh and I have taken Welsh at A-level. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:29 | |
There are some people who I turn to English inside the school | 0:45:29 | 0:45:33 | |
and outside. | 0:45:33 | 0:45:35 | |
I think it is the habit and I think that is a mistake | 0:45:35 | 0:45:37 | |
in the way people are taught Welsh. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
There are pupils who are in the sixth form who can't speak | 0:45:40 | 0:45:42 | |
Welsh fluently and have difficulties. | 0:45:42 | 0:45:46 | |
Unlike Megan, and we attend the same school, | 0:45:46 | 0:45:50 | |
I think that the Welsh is being used as too much of a punishment. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:55 | |
People will see it as something awful. | 0:45:55 | 0:45:59 | |
We only have a few minutes left. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:02 | |
-How about you? -I totally disagree with this. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:07 | |
I think it is cool to speak Welsh. | 0:46:07 | 0:46:10 | |
It is unique to us and we should respect language and think, | 0:46:10 | 0:46:14 | |
it is cool, that person over there | 0:46:14 | 0:46:16 | |
can't understand what we are saying. | 0:46:16 | 0:46:18 | |
Many thanks. How about you? | 0:46:18 | 0:46:21 | |
In my opinion the true problem is people come home | 0:46:23 | 0:46:27 | |
and watched English programmes on television, | 0:46:27 | 0:46:30 | |
and listen to English radio stations. | 0:46:30 | 0:46:33 | |
-The media... -Radio Cymru, Post Prynhawn, five o'clock every day. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
Especially the problems that Radio Cymru have been having recently. | 0:46:38 | 0:46:43 | |
The media is quite weak. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:45 | |
Many thanks. How about you. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:50 | |
I agree. I think it is cool to speak Welsh | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
but a lot of children have been forced to speak Welsh in school. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
If you are forced to do something, | 0:46:57 | 0:46:59 | |
the natural thing is to fight against it. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
That goes against making Welsh cool in schools. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:08 | |
How about you? | 0:47:08 | 0:47:10 | |
There is the danger that Welsh is turning into a formal language. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:14 | |
We are being forced to speak it in schools | 0:47:14 | 0:47:17 | |
and there isn't enough emphasis on using it every day | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
especially in a big city. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
People spoke formal Latin for generations | 0:47:23 | 0:47:27 | |
and yet it still died out because people don't use it. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
I have to say if I had power I would ask S4C | 0:47:30 | 0:47:33 | |
for another 15 minutes to discuss the topic. | 0:47:33 | 0:47:36 | |
There are so many of you wanting to contribute. | 0:47:36 | 0:47:38 | |
Panel, you have to be short. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
Maybe we need to more television programmes. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
So people all over the world can become familiar with Welsh. | 0:47:44 | 0:47:48 | |
Very quickly. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:50 | |
More opportunities to use Welsh outside schools. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:53 | |
More opportunities to use it in the community. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:57 | |
Little things like badges that told you who could speak Welsh. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
I think the audience is wrong. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
Welsh is losing ground where Welsh education is not available. | 0:48:03 | 0:48:07 | |
Places like Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:10 | |
Cardiff, Gwynedd, the South East Wales is very strong. | 0:48:10 | 0:48:14 | |
There we go. That is a subject for a whole programme. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
Look at those hands up. I am sorry. | 0:48:17 | 0:48:19 | |
Thank you very much and the panel for your contributions. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:22 | |
That is all for tonight. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:26 | |
We will be back next week in Ystrad Rhondda. Goodbye. | 0:48:26 | 0:48:28 |