21/02/2013 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel tonight,

a foursome that proves that Wales is full of Davises.

Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses.

Suzy Davies, the Conservative Assembly Member.

Keith Davies, the Assembly Member for Llanelli.

And completing the panel tonight, the columnist and language tutor, Cris Dafis.

Please welcome them all.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

For tonight's programme,

we have travelled to the most famous valley in South Wales, the Rhondda Valley.

There are two valleys and we are in the larger of the two tonight

and specifically in Ystrad Rhondda Sports Centre.

Our audience come from villages

like Treorchy, Tonpentre, Tonypandy, Tonyrefail and Treherbert

and the odd one or two have ventured up from Pontypridd's as well.

It is a very cold night so it's very nice to have your company.

Thank you very much for offering so many questions tonight.

We have selected a handful, as usual.

let's go to our first question which comes from Elise Jones. What is your question?

Were the results of the Census a surprise considering the fact

that Welsh medium schools in this area are full?

Thank you very much for tonight's first question.

Were the results of the Census a surprise considering the fact

that Welsh medium schools in this area are full?

Someone Tweeted earlier today that it is 'Every Davies and His Opinion' tonight!

Let's start with Cris Dafis.

I think everybody in Wales were surprised to see the Census results.

But I think in this area we are a little too pessimistic.

This area has done better, if you can put it in those terms,

than many other areas of Wales.

There has been a small increase in this area

but it is a small increase compared to Ceredigion and places like that.

People forget, 28,000 people speak Welsh in Rhondda Cynon Taff,

which is not many fewer than Ceredigion and Anglesey.

People tend to think about the South Wales Valleys,

nobody speaks Welsh down there. But they do.

A lot of people speak Welsh here.

There are very strong Welsh medium schools which contribute

-a lot to Welsh culture.

-Do they? This is the question we have to ask.

The schools are full

but what influence do these full schools have on the community,

if the Welsh language is not spoken outside of school?

There is a drop after people leave school at the age of 15 and over.

But people rediscover their Welsh years later very often.

I remember when I was in school in Llanelli, there were children

that I never spoke Welsh with although they could speak Welsh.

I went back 10 years later and spoke English to them and the would say, why are you speaking English?

They had turned back to the Welsh language.

In all honesty, education is not the only answer.

A lot of people say we need more education through the medium of Welsh

but we need a lot more.

You can't force children and young people to speak Welsh.

No matter how much good work schools do, they can't force anybody.

At the end of the day, what Welsh schools do is produce a bilingual Wales.

This slogan, "I want to live through the medium of Welsh",

which the Welsh language Society has adopted at the moment,

in my opinion it is a lot of harm because most people live bilingually.

But we present this idea that you either live through

the medium of English or through the medium of Welsh.

I think in this area and other areas in Wales people don't live through the medium of Welsh.

They lived bilingually.

Let me turn to somebody who was brought up in these valleys, Iestyn Davies.

What do you make of this question?

I was not surprised with the figures.

I was disappointed, of course.

We have to accept that the traditional Welsh areas

are very important and they have a definite role within Welsh culture.

But that is another culture and identity

growing in the South Wales Valleys and that is a bilingual identity.

I agree. I don't live my life through the medium of Welsh.

I live bilingually.

I speaking English at home, which is odd to some people,

and Welsh at work.

That's the nature of Welsh speakers in the south-east and the valleys.

We have to embrace that and accept that and celebrate the fact that

that is the nature of being a Welsh person, especially if you are young.

So you are seeing it is hopeful with regard to the Welsh language in this part of Wales?

-Definitely.

-Although the figures didn't prove that?

No, but from our perspective as people who live in the South Wales Valleys,

we embrace the fact that there has been an increase.

We accept that the profile

and usage of the language is different to other areas.

We accept that and we take that forward.

We also have to remember, compared to 1991, the percentage has gone up.

It went up in 2001 and it went down a little in 2011.

But 9% of the population spoke Welsh in 1991.

Now it is over 12%. So there has been an increase

in the long-term although there has been a blip in 2001.

Elise, give us a picture of the area you work and live in.

I would say it is very similar to the area that Cris described.

We bring up our children bilingually in our school.

We are a Welsh medium school but we put an emphasis on bringing up children bilingually.

We respect the fact that most of them come from non-Welsh speaking homes

but the contribution and the vision of the parents in those homes ensure...

But what happens outside of school?

How much does the school influence Welsh and the community it is in?

I would say it is quite a big influence

but you would have to ask the children.

We will do that. Put your hands up if you want to contribute.

Geraint Hopkins, I will come to you now.

You are a Rhondda Cynon Taff councillor.

Education is one of the answers, of course.

But outside of school, it is a problem in our communities

to find opportunities to speak Welsh from day-to-day.

I am a learner and I find it difficult to find somebody

who can speak Welsh so that I can practice the language.

Of course, a programme like this helps a lot.

We are pleased to be here. Let's go to a pupil from Ysgol y Cymer.

-Your hand was up.

-I agree with everything that's been said.

But I think there are opportunities outside of school

and outside of the classroom like Cor y Cwm.

I am a member of that choir.

That is through the medium of Welsh and everybody speaks Welsh.

We take part in competitions like Cor Cymru

and I think we do have opportunities and everybody can take part.

Tom Jones, you have been through the education system

-and are now back working here.

-Yes.

We have to remember that we have to create an industry

away from the school.

In the Rhondda Valley, that is what we are doing at the moment.

I went away to study in Aberystwyth and there was a Welsh community

outside of the university and outside of the home.

That is the practice in Aberystwyth.

We have to create that in the Rhondda Valley now outside of the school.

A community where all of us are willing to take part.

That happens in other areas. These figures are positive.

Do you feel positive?

There has been so much emphasis on disheartening figures in other areas of Wales.

How does that influence you?

It is a difficult question, I know. There is another hand up here.

The Census didn't ask... We are bilingual.

But as I understand it, the Census asks, can you speak Welsh?

You can speak English and put a tick next to Welsh.

That's why I'm disappointed.

More people should be speaking Welsh after going through Welsh medium schools,

even if they don't use it outside.

They can speak a little Welsh or some kind of Welsh.

Why didn't they put a tick on the census?

But they don't use it? Is that what you are suggesting?

Yes, but they don't ask whether you use it.

-They ask whether you can speak Welsh.

-Let me ask a headteacher.

Will you answer that?

As one who was born and bred in the Valley and who comes

from a non-Welsh speaking home, I have very positive feelings now.

What we're trying to do here is restore a language

that has never belonged to this current community, it did in the past.

So we're talking about restoring a language.

We have to protect the language in the strongholds

but I feel what is crucial is planning for the language.

Maybe that's where our friends in the Assembly need to think more widely.

By planning, do you mean more Welsh language initiatives

or more money for Welsh language initiatives?

That is one way, you know.

But these young people are brought up to be Welsh and bilingual,

they spend their time in schools begin Welsh but they leave school

and in this valley where there are no industries,

the demographic changes and people move out of the valley

and they don't have the opportunities.

But if you look at restoring the language,

if you look at the history of Hebrew or whatever,

what has been there is a real intention and a real investment from the government.

Penri Williams?

There has been a growth in Welsh medium schools

but we also need services through the medium of Welsh.

We are in a sports centre tonight

and a high percentage of the classes that are held here

should be provided through the medium of Welsh.

Would there be enough demand for them?

If they have been to school and spoken Welsh in school,

they would want swimming lessons and football coaching

through the medium of Welsh.

-But are the facilities available?

-They are.

You can train people to do the work

but what you need is the county council to provide the services.

Thank you very much.

Branwen Cennard, you were born and bred in this valley.

I feel quite positive, I have to say.

I have lived most of my life in Treorchy

and now I can go to the main street in Treorchy and go to shops

and there are young people who have been through the education system

and I can shop through the medium of Welsh.

That was not possible when I was in school.

So I do think there is a strong awareness that is more than exists maybe in the strongholds,

where people tend to take things for granted.

There are a number of learners here tonight

and people realise that there is a battle to be won.

Let me ask a few of the young people here,

do you speak Welsh outside of the school?

-Do you speak Welsh with your friends outside school?

-Yes.

We've been given the opportunity.

We learn from tonight and other things that the language

is starting to go and I feel we need to speak it.

I speak Welsh to my friends and text in Welsh.

What about you in front of her? Do you speak Welsh outside of school?

I agree. My friends and I sometimes speak Welsh outside of school.

The other problem is that sometimes people don't speak enough Welsh in school either.

-In school?

-Yes. They take it for granted.

It is a problem.

Let's go to the former teacher on the panel, Keith Davies.

Listening to Branwen talking just now,

I was disappointed with the figures for Treorchy because I think

around 15 % in the community said they could speak Welsh.

-Were you expecting a higher figure?

-Yes.

I expected a higher figure having worked in the Valley.

I thought it would be higher.

Many people have said that the biggest problem is outside school.

This area has four Welsh medium comprehensive schools.

Using Welsh outside of school is the answer now.

It does happen in the strongholds as well.

Places like the Amman Valley and the Tawe Valley.

The Assembly is looking at the initiatives in those areas.

Do the initiatives offer young people opportunities?

If you look at the Census, and you look at the percentage

of young people who can speak Welsh, it's very high.

But what happens outside of school is the biggest problem.

Does the Assembly and the Welsh Government offer enough leadership?

You might have heard Carwyn Jones say, he has a daughter and a son.

They are in a Welsh medium school

but they speak English with their friends.

He is talking about having a big conference to talk about...

Another talking shop?

We're not going to have the right answers for some people so we have to work together.

-Suzy Davies?

-I think we all need to have patience.

The number of young people speaking Welsh is growing.

A lot of them come through the English system and learn Welsh as a second language.

They don't put on the Census, for example,

that they can speak Welsh because they don't feel they can speak Welsh.

So there is something wrong with teaching Welsh as a second language?

One of the things that does my head in, as we say in Rhydfelen...

-Say that again.

-One of the things that does my head in...

That is the first for Pawb a'i Farn!

It's this idea as Welsh as a first language and the second language.

I am not sure what my first language is now and I don't mind about that.

-I'm happy and uncomfortable.

-You're comfortable in both.

-Exactly.

-Cris Dafis?

-Welsh speakers are at fault for not being more welcoming.

There are people who should know better

who say things publicly about the standard of people's Welsh

and it makes people say, "Oh, God, no, I can speak Welsh".

And actually, they can speak Welsh.

So you want those who speak the standard of the language to keep quiet?

Yes because they are harming the language.

You asked the question, Elise, so you can end our discussion.

I'd like to go back to what Keith was saying about children

speaking English with each other despite the fact

they come from Welsh speaking homes.

I accept that and I know that is true.

But we also have to think about the parents.

I know of a number of parents who can speak Welsh but to turn to English

and therefore are not sending the right messages to their children.

-It's not only children, we have to look at adults.

-You are right.

The statistics show that only 80% of parents,

where the mother and father both speak Welsh, only 80% speak Welsh with their children.

That means 20% don't speak Welsh with their children.

The elephant in the room is the lack of transferring.

But is it important that people can speak Welsh to speak Welsh all the time? No.

If they transfer the language to the generations to come,

people who speak Welsh don't have to use their Welsh all the time.

-Suzy Davies?

-What we are looking for is one bilingual community

and not two communities that speak only one language.

That's it. Plenty to think about for weeks to come.

Let's move on to our next question which comes from Anthony Cook in the back row. What is your question?

These valleys have been neglected for many years.

Isn't it time we had a new vision for the future?

It is a question we discuss every time we come to the valleys.

These valleys have been neglected for many years.

Isn't it time we had a new vision for the future? Iestyn Davies?

Yes, but as well as vision we need leadership.

We need a new generation of people who will step forward.

What we lost during those difficult times in the 80s

when we lost the coal mines, the labour unions, the chapels,

the social clubs, the brass bands and the male voice choirs,

we lost social and cultural leadership as well as losing the economy.

I think it's important that those two go together.

I would like to challenge the politicians on the panel

and those in the audience.

What we don't want is more bureaucracy and more schemes

and initiatives and good ideas.

What we need is leadership.

Do you mean leadership locally or something from above?

I don't mind whether it comes from the Assembly or from Mars

or from the community.

What we need is people who say this is our community,

this is our heritage and we are going to lead the way.

Are you suggesting that doesn't exist here?

I think what has happened is that we have professionalised

this business of reviving communities.

-Are you talking about work?

-Exactly.

It's important that that energy comes from the community

and we say to the community, you have the answer

and you have the right to give that leadership.

-Suzy Davies.

-It depends what you mean by neglect.

If you are talking from a financial point of view,

billions of pounds have come into West Wales and the valleys

during the last decades.

But the neglect is how that money has been spent.

It is a matter of leadership, I think.

Politicians haven't looked at how the money was used effectively.

-So it hasn't been spent properly?

-Some of it has been spent properly.

Especially the money from Europe which goes straight to the

strong groups in the community, for example Valleys Kids in this area.

But a lot of the money goes around and around in the system.

Whose fault is that?

-Whose fault is that?

-It is the fault of businesses.

-Honestly. If you read today's Western Mail...

-Can I just finish.

When the money goes round and round in the system,

it doesn't go down to the small businesses which can revive these communities.

But whose fault is it?

I've just said. Who's been in government in the Assembly for a decade?

Right, we have reached the Labour Government in the Assembly.

-Keith Davies?

-I accept some of the blame.

If you read today's Western mail,

Edwina Hart told the Cardiff Business Club yesterday

that the money that has come from the structural fund has come out

to the valleys and West Wales but the people who've asked

for the money and used it are the charities and the county councils.

-But businesses have not asked for that money.

-I doubt that very much.

-Is that true, Iestyn Davies?

-No, it's not true.

The money is there and they don't ask for it.

The money is there but the systems and the bureaucracy

means that unless you have somebody professional to go after that money,

you can't get your hands on the money.

The same is true about community projects.

Projects like Valleys Kids are great

but what about the grassroots projects that are out there?

Who does Iestyn work for now? For the Federation of Small Businesses.

And you work for the Labour Party.

The party that has been in power for decades.

Isn't he there to help businesses?

What this report says today is that we have a head of the civil service

who is the first to have an interest in business, so we have had problems.

But to help the small businesses, we need things like the Federation.

What has happened to the money up until now is that it has been used locally.

They may have built a bridge, which took a year.

But the bridge is finished and there is no work for people.

Are the valleys in a better condition

than they were when you were growing up?

If you're talking about infrastructure. The roads and railways...

When you come to the valleys, do you get the impression that this place is better than when you were younger?

-No, I have to admit.

-There has been a deterioration.

There has been a deterioration, there is no doubt about that.

And during that period, Labour has been in power for all those years.

So the responsibility lies at your door, Keith Davies, and your party.

Because businesses have not asked for the money and used it

and it has gone to the county councils,

who have looked at things like roads and so on.

I don't accept that because I know in my own region,

there are places where small businesses go for the money

but this is no money left because it has all gone to local councils.

Let's go to Alun Cox. Give us a picture of the valleys as they are.

Are these people right?

I think Iestyn is right.

There has been a deterioration in the valleys for a while.

The deterioration in the way we ask for vision.

The question asked what the new vision is.

Well, it hasn't come from the politicians on this panel.

In reality, the answer isn't money from Europe.

The answer is not to look to the Labour Party to save us.

The answer, as Iestyn Davies said, is for us

to take responsibility for our own economy in the Rhondda

and in the valleys and start new ventures ourselves.

We are not going to wait for people to come in and save us.

We have to save our own economy.

-But you would still have to travel to Cardiff, isn't that the truth?

-No.

-That's the future.

-No. That's not the future.

A lot of people say now that that is the future

and that we have to build Cardiff as a city region.

But that's not the answer.

-The answer is to spread the businesses outside Cardiff.

-Thank you.

Let's hear from one of the pupils from Ysgol y Cymer.

I believe the problem is that we're talking about spreading out money.

We're handing out money to businesses which are dying.

The coal mines have closed.

Every business goes to places like China or Taiwan.

We need a new unique selling point.

A long time ago it was coal. We need to start making things.

A leader needs a good idea to lead.

We need a good idea, something new to invest money into.

Do you have any ideas for this selling point?

-Recycling.

-Recycling, yes.

Nobody is recycling locally any more. It all goes to China.

What about the suggestion coming from Cardiff that this is the future,

everyone should travel to Cardiff or Swansea

-if you live further to the west?

-Perhaps, I'm not sure.

-Would you be willing to travel to Cardiff?

-Yes.

We have four parties in the Assembly who accept the free market.

Perhaps Labour and Plaid Cymru accept it under duress,

but the Tories and Lib Dems embrace it.

The free market has caused these problems and to be honest,

I can't see a future for the Valleys, Wales or the planet

if we are going to allow a system which allows

pollution in the environment and in the food chain and wars.

If we're talking about vision, we need something to tackle this.

Thanks, Gareth. What would you like to say?

There are plenty of opportunities in the Valleys,

but we need a leader who can take charge.

We have things like parks

and buildings which could be used to create new businesses.

But we have to get someone in to share out the money to do this.

Do you believe that you will be staying in this area?

I would like to stay in this area because there are many things to do.

But there's nothing here for me now. I'll have to go to Cardiff.

Let's go to the front row.

Regenerating an area doesn't happen overnight.

One of the schemes that did make a difference in the Rhondda

was the Communities First scheme.

Unfortunately, the Government has broken that up

by federalizing the community projects.

They are now area projects and they have to work to the aims

set by the Welsh Government and not the aims of the community.

That is going to be a terrible loss for the Valleys.

Thank you.

Suzie Davies talked about the money which has come to the Valleys

and West Wales.

David Cameron has just managed to freeze that money.

The effect of that

is that there will be less money available in future.

That is a big problem.

But some blame rests on Keith and his party.

Keith has admitted to that and has apologised.

We can see the effect of such decisions by councils

when we see new pavements being put in.

Aberdare is having new pavements, but there is no work there.

There's nothing to retain our youngsters there.

Anthony described it as neglect.

I don't know if Anthony wants to come back on this.

Does it feel like a place that has been neglected?

Be honest, is it a place without much hope?

Yes, you all seem to agree. Branwen is shaking her head.

It isn't a place without hope. But it has been neglected.

The first two topics that we've discussed go hand in hand.

The answer for the language is to create jobs.

The answer lies in the economy.

The responsibility lies with the politicians in Cardiff Bay.

They are there to offer leadership.

Chris Dafis, we haven't heard from you.

I believe the question was about vision.

What strikes me is that there is a lack of vision.

Where is the vision? Who is leading Wales these days?

Politicians don't seem to be taking charge and offering a vision.

It's not just in this area, but for the whole of Wales.

What is the vision for this nation? It doesn't exist.

Does that cover politicians in general?

There certainly isn't a sense of a vision

and that this is where we are heading as an area or as a nation.

If I could answer your question

about whether this is a community without hope, no.

There isn't a community without hope in Wales.

From time to time, perhaps the pulse will be a little weak.

But if you look across this country, the community is still alive

and the heart is still pumping.

Thanks. That brings the first part of our programme to an end.

Join us in Ystrad Rhondda after the break.

Welcome back. You're watching Pawb A'i Farn from the Rhondda. We're having a lively evening.

Our next question is from Seren Haf Macmillan.

Seren, your question please.

It was suggested this week that soft drinks should be taxed.

Would that be a good idea as obesity is such a problem?

Seren, thank you. Should soft drinks be taxed?

Let's go to a member of the audience.

He realised obesity was a problem and has tackled the situation.

Councillor Geraint Hopkins.

How much weight have you lost in the past year?

In the past year, I've lost 12 stone.

Yes, 12 stone.

How did you manage to do that, Geraint?

No carbs at all. No bread, potatoes nor pasta.

That was for the first six months and then just a little bit.

One of our loyal audience members over the years

and one of Rhondda Cynon Taf's councillors,

what was the problem in the past?

You were obviously overeating.

How much time have you got?

Give us an idea. Were these drinks, for instance, a problem?

A bit, yes, but it was mainly the food.

But the drinks too. I'd drink a lot of Diet Coke.

Stop drinking Diet Coke.

Sorry. Diet Coke might sue me now.

I'm more concerned they'll prosecute Pawb A'i Farn, not you.

That was my opinion.

But are you glad you made the effort?

The problem is, the schools

and the government to a lot to educate people

to eat better but the industry can pay much more for advertising

to encourage people to eat.

Even someone like you, a county councillor, can be influenced by advertising?

Yes, isn't it shameful? Sorry.

Geraint, thank you for being so honest. Susie.

I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak!

It's a complicated problem. Ask anyone who's followed diets

and they'll tell you that the reason people put on weight

isn't because food is cheap. That's simplifying it.

If you tax soft drinks, people will just pay more for being fat.

I don't think it would work.

People will drink it anyway.

I think so. Of course, there is an issue with foods like junk foods.

It is cheap so it's easy for people to turn to instead of healthier food.

This isn't a problem the government can solve, or locals can solve by themselves.

The message is out there. People know what healthy food is.

If it's that much of a problem, why can't the government change the rules?

They've done that with smoking and drink-driving.

I'm not sure this will work because people don't look upon soft drinks as treats.

They look upon them as a normal part of life.

People aren't going to stop for the sake of a few pence.

What's the answer? To educate?

There's a lot of education there but there isn't much focus on drinks specifically

so this could help.

How to get people to buy into this is much more complicated.

I think there are many different reasons why people overeat and eat the wrong things.

In my experience, when you're feeling down, or going through a tough time,

you don't respect yourself enough to make healthy choices.

The problem with obesity is again associated with other issues

like people's economic standard of living.

It's related to how you feel about yourself

and sticking a few pennies, because we are talking pennies here...

Twenty was the suggestion.

Yes. That will make no difference at all.

There will always be cheap pop.

I've got two sons in their twenties and they drink diet coke and things

and they go to Tesco or Asda, a pound a bottle.

If it goes up 20%, that's 20 pence. That will make no difference.

What would make a difference is like with this smoking business.

We should change things like advertising before 9pm.

But what is happening is that when they are there,

they get these offers. Two meals free and so on.

All this advertising is going to lead young people into these places.

Shouldn't the parents be setting an example?

They don't put weight on because they play rugby.

They go to the gym and that is important too.

People need to walk.

Nia Griffiths is in the same office as me and she said to me

one day, her sister is a doctor, "Do you know what my sister told me?

"Walk or die." "What do you mean by that?" "You have to keep fit,

"you have to ensure you don't sit in the car all the time."

I'll ask the teachers here, do the children do less PE these days?

We'll see. You want to come back in on this?

We can advertise however much we want.

We can create advertising campaigns.

But until you tackle what people feel about themselves

and you people have a feeling that they are contributing,

that they have a future in the world,

they're not going to bother about themselves.

We know what the choices are, but if you don't care,

you're not going to do anything about it.

Can I turn to the audience? Yes?

-As far as how much children do at school, as a teacher myself...

-PE?

-Yes.

-There we are, you know better than anyone.

As far as balance, if you burn off the calories you

put into the body, you won't gain weight.

So it's not just the opportunities that are available, there are no restrictions.

But are children doing less PE than they used to?

I think that maybe technology is to blame, and society.

Children are not out there on the streets, as they were when I was a child.

-Maybe they are too safe.

-And what about their diet?

To an extent, diets have improved.

-There is a duty to improve what is available.

-In the school?

But what about when they go round the corner and buy something cheap in the shop?

-We keep our children on site.

-Well, there we are.

-Which school?

-Rhydywaun.

Right. Where are the Cymer children? Come on, Seren, your question.

I know that healthy food is important in losing weight,

but PE is important too.

I don't think there is enough emphasis on PE in schools to

enable the children to be thin and more importantly, healthy.

-You don't do much PE?

-I used to, but I didn't do enough really.

-I don't do enough.

-Oh, well. An admission.

What about you?

It's not just the fact that children are eating too much,

eating healthily can be difficult for children.

The fact that McDonald's is quite cheap

and it's just round the corner. You just walk up and buy the food.

You don't want to go home and put pasta in the oven

and everything like that. Children need cookery lessons,

children need to learn how to make these meals.

Yes, cookery lessons. More emphasis on that.

Come back in on that.

As far as emphasis in schools, what might help now is that

since they started banding schools, there is more emphasis on leadership

teams and the old days of people leaving the site for sport

and drama and so on is lost because of the strain placed on the school.

Yes. Branwen, in the back row.

This is also a matter of resources.

Until two years ago, maybe three, I swam three times

a week at Treherbert Swimming Pool at the top of the valley.

There is no swimming pool in Treherbert, thanks to Labour.

If you live at the top of the valley, you have to

pay £4.60 to go by bus to the swimming pool in this building.

I agree that PE is important,

but also this is a government matter, people need places to go.

People also need to be prepared to travel.

It's not that far to come down here. It's a superb resource.

If you don't have a car and you rely on public transport, it's tough.

And people are less likely to come if it will cost them money

-and take time.

-Iestyn, you have not contributed.

Well, it is a very complex question.

One of the options is to punish the people who make this kind of food.

I would be happy to support the idea of stopping

the advertising of these drinks and these deals.

But as a businessman, no extra tax?

Well, taxes on the companies that make this produce,

rather than those selling the produce, I think, at the moment.

There are so many restrictions on small businesses as it is.

But another option is rewarding,

what about a tax break of companies or those making healthier food?

If we had the power in Wales to take such action, it would be an option.

At the moment, we do not.

So some of these things we could do are not an option right now.

I'm going to leave there. I want to squeeze another question in, but let's go for a break first.

Join us in two minutes.

Welcome back to the final part of this edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

We are in Ystrad Rhondda, in the leisure centre,

where it is a little cold, but the chat is keeping us warm.

The next question from Gwyn Evans. What is your question?

We cannot continue this way, said the Education Minister yesterday.

Is it time the councils lost the right to provide

-education for our children?

-Thank you, Gwyn, for that question.

We cannot continue this way, said Leighton Andrews,

the Education Minister, yesterday.

Is it time the councils lost the right to provide

education for our children?

And we have just the man on the panel,

as a former director of education, Keith Davies.

Well, I agree with the first sentence.

I don't agree with the second.

The problem we have in Wales is that there are too many education

authorities. There are 22 of them.

I worked in the Rhondda when there were eight education authorities.

And the most important thing is to appoint head teachers.

And I remember the director of education calling me in,

Ken Hopkins from Porth, "The results of the summer are here," he said.

"What we'll do tomorrow, we'll call in the head

"teachers of the ten worst performing schools in Mid Glam."

And that's what we did.

The following morning, we called in the ten head teachers

and asked them how they were going to improve

because there was research at the time form the Open University and it

was in English, "The most important thing we do..." And what was it?

-Appointing the right head teachers.

-Isn't that happening, Keith?

It doesn't happen now because what happened after then was you

had a team, right, in an authority such as Mid Glam,

of people who could work with the heads.

What you have now is authorities that are too small to have

teams that can work with the heads.

So the heads of these education authorities, you claim,

are not asking the head teachers the right questions?

No, they can't provide the help the schools need.

I remember, we had a debate with the Conservatives during the time

of Kenneth Baker and I was a member of the union at the time.

And we told Kenneth Baker, "Each authority needs 15 consultants."

-Right.

-And Kenneth Baker agreed.

But unfortunately, who was the prime minister at the time?

And she said no. And do you know why she said no?

If she'd agreed, she would have had to pay for them.

You've had plenty of time, but what do you want?

Fewer councils or no councils at all, no authorities?

Fewer, I would want.

Fewer councils, like we had 15 years ago.

-Suzy?

-It's nice to hear some honesty from Keith Davies

because in my opinion, what has been happening here is the minister,

who has been busy in the world of education,

using what is happening with the latest results to try and create

fewer local authorities without admitting that is what he wants.

I noticed an authority yesterday with probably the best

results in Wales and they were classified as unsatisfactory.

-You think Leighton Andrews is being dishonest?

-Can I say that?

You can say what you like. I'm just asking.

-Well, as I said, Keith Davies has been a little more honest.

-Right.

I disagree because I think Leighton Andrews has been very honest

and it's about time politicians and the leaders of local

authorities and councils faced the reality of the situation.

It is not good enough.

If you talk to small businesses, you ask about standards,

children, people in their 20s, going into the workplace,

they not have the basic skills, unfortunately.

And it's not the fault of the children or young people.

It's the fault of the system that we have.

Well, I was just reading the words of Leighton Andrews -

we cannot continue with 22 local authorities that are underperforming.

That strikes me as honesty.

I don't think he's hiding behind anything here.

Can I ask whether the rest of the Cabinet agrees with him?

He is being quoted, not the rest of his Cabinet.

But what is worth remembering here is that at least it is not

Michael Gove making the decisions.

Can I turn to the teachers? You contributed at the start of the programme. What about this point?

Things are not good enough, according to Leighton Andrews.

The authorities need to be taken out of those county councils.

I won't put my head on the block and give you the answer,

exactly what I think about that, but I agree -

if things are not good enough, at the end of the day,

the children of Wales deserve the best education.

If you compare the results of Wales in the tests, we are very low.

And that is not good enough.

They deserve the best education and we need to move forward

and provide that.

-Gwyn Evans?

-Leighton Andrews is blaming everyone.

Labour have been in the Assembly for ten years.

And now we're coming to this situation.

They should have sorted it out sooner.

Yes. Keith Davies can answer that. Can I return to you?

As a head teacher, are you provided with enough leadership?

You won't want to answer that in case anyone is listening!

The question was, we cannot continue like this.

Is it time to education from the councils -

well, it depends what comes in their place.

Well, Keith is suggesting a larger, regional body.

Whatever it is, and I agree that more accountability is needed,

but we need more leadership and I don't know the Welsh word for

"rigour", but we need to ensure standards.

And we need to ensure we have the resources to ensure the standards

because schools are expected to continually improve with less money.

Keith Davies, where have you been for the past 13 years?

Well, what has happened recently is that as schools have been

inspected every five years or six years,

Leighton Andrews has decided that counties should be inspected.

And he has come out and you may have the figures,

not one authority has come out of this well.

But aren't Estyn telling Leighton Andrews what he wants to hear?

I think Estyn are entirely separate.

They are separate,

but not one authority in Wales has had an exceptional mark.

And there are five authorities that have to improve.

Remember, if I may challenge the teachers here,

there is a responsibility on the education industry to take

this on board and face the challenge given to them by Leighton Andrews.

We must leave there. Thank you to the audience in the Rhondda.

It's been a pleasure. And thank you to the panel.

Next week, we will be in Carmarthen. Until then, goodbye.