Browse content similar to 12/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On our panel tonight - | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
Owain Davies, the manager of an engineering company | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
and a member of CBI Cymru. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:31 | |
The editor of Heno which is broadcast every night from this town, | 0:00:31 | 0:00:35 | |
Angharad Mair. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
The Llanelli MP and the Labour Welsh spokesperson, Nia Griffith. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:42 | |
For Plaid Cymru, the Carmarthen East and Dinefwr MP Jonathan Edwards. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:48 | |
Please welcome them all. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:49 | |
Good evening and welcome to the programme. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
It's Thursday night, Pawb a'i Farn night, | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
and I hope we have a lively hour of discussion. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:10 | |
That should be possible not only because of our panel, | 0:01:10 | 0:01:14 | |
but also because we are in Llanelli and the people from this town | 0:01:14 | 0:01:18 | |
as well as from the villages from Trimsaran to Trefach, | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
from Pontyberem to Burry Port, are used to giving us | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
their opinions on this programme. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
I am confident tonight won't be different. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
After three programmes, I wonder whether our new timeslot pleases you. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
You can contact us through the usual methods. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
This is our final programme before Christmas, | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
but in January we'll be back in Bethesda, Pontardawe and Llangefni. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:43 | |
Tonight, we are in Llanelli and the first question, please? | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
Steffan, your question please. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
This week, we heard that patients have had to wait for hours | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
in ambulances outside the emergency units of our hospitals. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
How do we solve the problem? | 0:01:57 | 0:01:58 | |
Thank you for the first question. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:02 | |
This week we heard that patients had to wait for hours | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
in ambulances outside the emergency units of our hospitals. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:09 | |
How do we solve that problem? Let's start with Jonathan Edwards. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
When we discuss the NHS in Wales, | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
it is important to remember that the staff achieve miracles every day. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:21 | |
My wife is expecting a baby in the next few weeks | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
and we know we are going to get excellent care | 0:02:24 | 0:02:26 | |
when the big day arrives. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
The truth is with regard to these statistics, | 0:02:29 | 0:02:33 | |
Wales has the worst statistics in the UK | 0:02:33 | 0:02:36 | |
when it comes to transferring patients from ambulances into A&E. | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
The images this week were quite iconic, I think. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:44 | |
It showed the failure of the health policy in Wales. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
Almost 20 ambulances waiting in the car park in Morriston Hospital, | 0:02:48 | 0:02:53 | |
doctors had to treat patients in the back of the ambulance. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:58 | |
There are three things that need to be done. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
I was in Llandovery hospital recently in my constituency | 0:03:01 | 0:03:05 | |
and the beds were completely full of patients who are ready | 0:03:05 | 0:03:08 | |
to go back out to have community care. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
We have to solve this bed-blocking problem. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
It is a long-term problem and the Government has not done | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
what's needed to strengthen social services. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:23 | |
Secondly, we have to look at ways of raising capital | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
within the NHS. That's we've published a policy of... | 0:03:27 | 0:03:32 | |
But the money is not available? | 0:03:32 | 0:03:34 | |
We are in a time of heavy cuts. The money isn't available. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:37 | |
This is the point I'm trying to make. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
That's why Plaid Cymru has announced a policy | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
of putting taxes on drinks which are full of sugar. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
That allows us to raise money. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
It stops people buying these drinks, which harms the health. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:54 | |
It also raises money for investment in the service. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
-What is the third point? -What was the third point? | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
Excellent. I'll move on. Nia Griffith? | 0:04:00 | 0:04:05 | |
What we need to do is get the patients from the ambulances | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
into the hospitals. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:10 | |
We need to recruit more doctors. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
I'm glad the Health Minister told the Llanelli Star today | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
that we are going to have a team of doctors in the emergency unit | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
in Prince Philip Hospital. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
I have to say the Welsh Government has given the Health Service | 0:04:23 | 0:04:28 | |
an extra £560 million. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
That reflects the priorities of the people of Wales. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
Does it also reflect the failure of the Labour policy | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
as Jonathan suggested? | 0:04:39 | 0:04:41 | |
The third point, we need to look again at the policy | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
they have of centralising services and downgrading services. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:50 | |
Where are the ambulances which go to Prince Philip Hospital, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
where are they going to go? | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
The call won't decrease. | 0:04:56 | 0:04:58 | |
They'll go to Glangwili, Morriston. | 0:04:58 | 0:04:59 | |
It creates more problems in other hospitals. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
That is the point. The extra money is there to recruit more doctors. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
What we also need is more specialists to help them. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
If patients come in, | 0:05:09 | 0:05:11 | |
we need to keep most of the services in our local hospitals. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:16 | |
That's the important point. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
But, at the same time, we have to think about other things | 0:05:18 | 0:05:23 | |
we can do, like getting rid of bed-blocking. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
We need to do other things too. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:30 | |
The last time I met with the Ambulance Services, | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
they said one of the biggest problems is the fact that | 0:05:32 | 0:05:36 | |
doctors at the end of the morning and at the end of the afternoon | 0:05:36 | 0:05:40 | |
go out to see patients and come together the same time. | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
With mobile phones and so on, some doctors could go earlier. | 0:05:43 | 0:05:48 | |
You're raising all sorts of points there. Angharad Mair? | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
A few simple things could be done. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
We need to persuade people they have to go to the pharmacy first | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
before going to the GP. | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
We need to improve the GP service. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
You can't blame people for going to emergency units | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
if they can't get an appointment with their GP. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
I understand why people in Llanelli have raised this question. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:11 | |
Nia Griffith said there are going to be more doctors | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
in Prince Philip Hospital. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
But they are empty words because the emergency unit is going to close. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:23 | |
So you don't believe what Nia Griffiths has just said? | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
That doctors will lead this? | 0:06:26 | 0:06:28 | |
There will be doctors and nurses there | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
and the emergency unit will be gone. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
That has been made clear. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:35 | |
People will have to go to Carmarthen and Morriston Hospital. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
That's more than 20 miles away. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
Most of them will be treated here in Llanelli. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:46 | |
They will continue to be treated in Llanelli. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
Apart from those with heart problems. | 0:06:49 | 0:06:53 | |
-No, no... -One at a time. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
Nia Griffith has stood in opposition to her own party's policy | 0:06:56 | 0:07:00 | |
for the past few years, now she supports it. | 0:07:00 | 0:07:02 | |
Can I give you some statistics. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
In 2012, 33,000 people went to the emergency unit in Llanelli. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:09 | |
6,800 of them are emergency cases. | 0:07:09 | 0:07:14 | |
That means now they would be moved to Morriston or Carmarthen. | 0:07:16 | 0:07:21 | |
It isn't far. It is only half an hour. | 0:07:21 | 0:07:23 | |
It's 20 miles to Carmarthen. It's 30 minutes to Morriston. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:27 | |
When you are talking about an emergency situation, | 0:07:27 | 0:07:29 | |
and if you are not treated immediately with something | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
like a heart attack, your chances of surviving is reduced. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
The most important question is, | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
where's the money going to come from? | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
In 2009, when the Health Boards were cut from 22 to seven and, | 0:07:40 | 0:07:46 | |
obviously, many of the highest jobs disappeared, none of them | 0:07:46 | 0:07:52 | |
were asked to go voluntarily | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
and nobody was made redundant. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
Of all the health boards we had, | 0:07:59 | 0:08:01 | |
they are all still being paid and are still getting their pensions. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
If we got rid of the people without jobs, | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
there would be enough money left. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:11 | |
That point has been raised before. Owain? | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
It's terrible that people are being treated in the back of an ambulance. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
We have to consider in these times that people | 0:08:18 | 0:08:20 | |
get the treatment they need. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
We have to consider that Llanelli is a place... | 0:08:22 | 0:08:27 | |
It is the second biggest town in Carmarthenshire. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
We need these services in Llanelli. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
If what Nia says is true, | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
Maybe at this point I can jump in. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
I knew this topic was going to be raised | 0:08:39 | 0:08:41 | |
and we have had a statement from the Welsh Government | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
which should interest the audience. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
This is what the Welsh Government has said today. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
The Health Minister has made it clear that the Prince Philip Hospital | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
emergency unit will be led clinically by doctors, | 0:08:53 | 0:08:56 | |
along with nurses who specialise in the field. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
That's the statement by the Welsh Government. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
You referred to the Llanelli Star, which also has an article | 0:09:03 | 0:09:08 | |
with Mark Drakeford, the Health Minister | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
and he says the same in that article. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
But he was asked what exactly does it mean with regard to having doctors | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
in the hospital. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:19 | |
The answer was it means a GP on the site. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:24 | |
Is that the same as having the kind of doctors you would expect? | 0:09:26 | 0:09:31 | |
It's something for you to think about while I go back to Owain. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
I think that is an important argument. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:37 | |
The only thing we haven't considered is, | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
we have to ensure that nurses have the ability. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:42 | |
It's different these days to how it was before. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
Every nurse has a degree these days. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
The standard and technology has improved. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
But I don't think that will answer the problem we have in Llanelli. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
As Angharad Mair said, | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
the number of people using the site is a huge number. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
They need the treatment they deserve. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
I don't think people are being treated in the back of an ambulance | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
is something we should accept. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
It is not a unique situation in Llanelli. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
It happens in Morriston and it happens in North Wales. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
But the question is how to solve the problem? | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
We all have a duty to ensure that we consider what to do. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:22 | |
Do we go to A&E? | 0:10:22 | 0:10:24 | |
Or do we go to the GP? | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
Sometimes we are too ready to go to A&E? | 0:10:27 | 0:10:30 | |
Yes, we have to consider what type of treatment we require. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
The panel come back in a moment. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
Let's go to the audience. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
As a secretary of the friends of the hospital I can say this, | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
it is not acceptable that they are treated in the ambulance. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:44 | |
But they are safer because the paramedic is looking after them | 0:10:44 | 0:10:49 | |
in the ambulance. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:51 | |
If they went into the hospital, | 0:10:51 | 0:10:53 | |
they would have a few minutes without attention. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
They are safer in the ambulance before they go into the hospital. | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
Yes, come in on that. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:02 | |
The point is the ambulance crews do a very difficult job | 0:11:04 | 0:11:09 | |
under difficult circumstances and they should be praised. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
One of the factors that affects the problem, | 0:11:12 | 0:11:15 | |
one of them the lack of beds in hospitals. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
They've closed many beds in Welsh hospitals over the last few years. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
That is adding to the crisis. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
But nobody accepts there is a crisis. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:27 | |
The other thing is care in the community. | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
It is a good idea but every good idea | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
needs to financed fairly in order for it to be successful. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
Where is the money? | 0:11:35 | 0:11:37 | |
The Government has to consider the problems seriously. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
Huw Richards in the back. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
It is a huge problem throughout Wales. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
The fact is money is the bottom line. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
They are talking about more doctors for this area, | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
but they won't come to West Wales. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:58 | |
That is a problem. | 0:11:58 | 0:12:00 | |
If we can't attract them, it doesn't matter how much you'll pay them | 0:12:00 | 0:12:04 | |
that continues to be a problem. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
Would you like GP surgeries to open for longer? | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
Maybe that would solve the problem. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:11 | |
Maybe you could go to the surgery later at night or on the weekend. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:16 | |
That is a problem. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:19 | |
Getting an appointment with a GP is a problem to start with. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
You have to prepare for a fortnight before you get ill. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
That is often the situation. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:29 | |
How about you in the front row? Let's move the microphone down. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:33 | |
The fact is we are living longer. | 0:12:33 | 0:12:37 | |
The population is getting older. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
That is a good thing, | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
but because we are living older, there is more illness. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
There is not enough room in the hospitals. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
We need more hospitals, more beds, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:51 | |
more money and the politicians are playing with the situation. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:56 | |
Why don't they get hold of the problem and increase income tax? | 0:12:56 | 0:13:01 | |
Or get the millions which are spent on the lottery | 0:13:01 | 0:13:06 | |
and have some kind of special lottery | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
and the money goes to the NHS? | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
But people aren't willing to pay more income tax? | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
How much money is spent on the lottery? | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
They pay that, no problem. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
Sian Evans. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
There is a problem in Wales and in Britain as a whole. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
But there are a lot of beds in the hospitals. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
I visited a hospital recently and there were many beds | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
but they were not being used because there was no staff | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
to look after the patients. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
So maybe there are beds, but not enough staff. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
So it isn't bed-blocking but not enough staff, no nurses. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
-Not enough nurses. -Yes? | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
One other thing is the Labour Party hasn't been clear enough | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
in what their policy is. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
Mark Drakeford said in September that it would a nurse-led | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
system, not doctors. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
Now he's saying something different, | 0:14:00 | 0:14:02 | |
maybe as a result of the campaign in Llanelli. | 0:14:02 | 0:14:06 | |
But he has been very clear in his statement. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:09 | |
But it's contrary to what he said three months ago. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:11 | |
Yes, you in the back row. | 0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | |
People are trying to sort this out | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
but you need to look at what's happening. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
The health board is quite happy to see the ambulances outside | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
A&E or outside the hospital where the people are safe. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
They haven't given us the service we need so they save money. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
They should spend more money on what's inside the hospital | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
and somebody should say every 20 minutes the ambulance | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
is outside the hospital the health board should be fined. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
They'd soon find the money and make changes. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
If nobody does anything it will be like this forever. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:49 | |
Are we patients too quick to call an ambulance? | 0:14:49 | 0:14:53 | |
If there's something wrong, ambulance. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
If you need an ambulance, you need an ambulance, | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
but it doesn't need to be outside the hospital for an hour or two | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
or three. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:03 | |
If the health board had to pay the Ambulance Service for that time, | 0:15:03 | 0:15:07 | |
they would change straightaway and they wouldn't spend the money. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
But while they're not paying, | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
they don't care that the Ambulance Service is spending money. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
Let's go back to the panel. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:19 | |
Nia, was it a mistake to give this new contract to GPs? | 0:15:19 | 0:15:24 | |
That's changed. Rather than being available, as they were before, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:29 | |
it's difficult to get hold of them and people go to emergency units. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:34 | |
To be fair to people who have called an ambulance, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:38 | |
the Service says that the majority of people who go to hospital | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
in an ambulance need it. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:45 | |
The thing is, we're getting older, as the gentleman said. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:50 | |
It is very important that we reflect the fact | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
that there is more demand for the service. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:58 | |
In West Wales we need to recruit better, | 0:15:58 | 0:16:02 | |
not only for the hospital but for the GP service. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:08 | |
It's difficult to find them, as Huw said. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
It is true of all our rural areas. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:14 | |
It is difficult to get people to come to this area | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
because of uncertainty over their jobs. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
That's the problem. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
If the money was available and the hospital invested in the future, | 0:16:23 | 0:16:28 | |
more and more people would get the best treatment. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
Llanelli is a hospital with several areas of expertise. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:36 | |
Breast cancer, I think. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:38 | |
The orthopaedic surgery is excellent. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
We don't say enough about that. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:44 | |
Should we accept that every hospital | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
-is not going to specialise in every field? -They're not. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:49 | |
-Angharad? -That is true. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
I have nothing against centralising services | 0:16:52 | 0:16:55 | |
like intensive care for children | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
or heart disease, cancer and so on. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
But, coming back to your point, which is important, | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
I think we should prioritise young people who want to be doctors. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:09 | |
They should go to the University Hospital in Cardiff. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
At the moment they are competing against everybody else in Britain. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
They should be encouraged, especially if they speak Welsh, | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
to come back to these areas as doctors. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:21 | |
The last word from you, Jonathan. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:23 | |
The health boards and the Labour government | 0:17:23 | 0:17:27 | |
need to be honest with people. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
They've tried to write off the problems in West Wales | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
for clinical reasons. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
But we all know that it all comes down to financial problems. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:39 | |
That's why we've put more money in. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
That's why people have lost faith in the Labour government. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
You can respond, Nia. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
That is why the Welsh government has decided to give the NHS more money. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:53 | |
There is a shortage and that's a problem. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
-That's why they've done that. -That is the end of our first topic. | 0:17:56 | 0:18:00 | |
Let's have the second question from Alwyn Jones. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:05 | |
Is there any way of justifying an 11% pay rise for MPs | 0:18:05 | 0:18:11 | |
at a time of severe financial cuts? | 0:18:11 | 0:18:15 | |
Alwyn sounds doubtful. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
Is there any way of justifying an 11% pay rise for MPs | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
at a time of severe financial cuts? | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
I'll come to the MPs in a moment. Owain, I'll start with you. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
We have to make sure that we get the best people. | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
I think the pay rise would be fair at another point in time. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:36 | |
It is the timing that is the problem. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:40 | |
We have seen scandals in the past | 0:18:40 | 0:18:45 | |
to do with expenses. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
I think re-setting the pay and the expenses is a good idea. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:53 | |
But is now the time to do this? | 0:18:53 | 0:18:57 | |
-And is 11%... -But when is it convenient to do it? | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
It's not. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
The problem we have at the moment is the cuts in the public sector, | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
people are being made redundant and it's not the right time | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
to have this kind of pay rise at the moment. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
You may applaud. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
-But in principle you would be willing to pay MPs £74,000 a year? -Yes. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
I think it's fair for the responsibilities they have | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
and the hours they have to work. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
They have to do more work and stop arguing about nothing at times | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
but many in the business industry say that. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
Angharad, do they deserve £74,000? | 0:19:39 | 0:19:41 | |
I have to admit, in this difficult time, with the economic situation | 0:19:41 | 0:19:47 | |
as it is, it would be terrible if the MPs accepted a pay rise. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:53 | |
And yet I do have sympathy for MPs. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
If you look at the county council, | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
one person earns over £200,000 year. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
Four earn over £130,000 a year. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
20 people on Carmarthenshire Council earn over £80,000. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:14 | |
That's 25 people on your county council - you pay their salaries | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
and their pensions - here in Carmarthenshire, | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
in one of the most deprived areas, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:26 | |
and our officials on the county council | 0:20:26 | 0:20:31 | |
are among the highest paid in Wales. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
When you look at the whole situation, | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
and an independent panel has looked at this pay rise for MPs, | 0:20:37 | 0:20:43 | |
the same independent panel should come to Wales to change things, | 0:20:43 | 0:20:47 | |
so that we have more consistency. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:49 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:20:49 | 0:20:51 | |
And if there's one thing that makes me angry, | 0:20:53 | 0:20:58 | |
it's hearing millionaires like Cameron and Clegg and Miliband | 0:20:58 | 0:21:03 | |
and Osborne and Hunt, saying some MPs should not have a pay rise. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:09 | |
I think they should reject their entire salaries as MPs | 0:21:09 | 0:21:14 | |
in order to encourage less fortunate people to go into politics | 0:21:14 | 0:21:19 | |
-to represent us. -So you think they deserve but not now? | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
The timing is terrible for them to have a pay rise now. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
They should not have it now. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
But when you compare it to other people, | 0:21:29 | 0:21:33 | |
you have to look at it fairly. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
Let's hear from the audience. Would you be in favour of the pay rise? | 0:21:36 | 0:21:41 | |
Alwyn, you asked the question. Let's get the microphone to you. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
No, I would not accept it. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
When you consider the situation in the country and all the poverty, | 0:21:47 | 0:21:52 | |
I am against it. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
Erm, Haydn... Yes, you first. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
Even talking about 11%... | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
1% now and 9% in 2015, it's politically insane. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:05 | |
The leaders of the three main parties in London have said | 0:22:05 | 0:22:10 | |
they should not accept it and I think they're playing games. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
They'd be happy to accept it. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
What they should do is... | 0:22:16 | 0:22:18 | |
They say this is an independent body and we can't do anything about it. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:23 | |
Then you should agree to put all the money back | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
and we should have a list of those who give it back | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
and those who don't. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
At a different time, I would be with Owain and Angharad. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:37 | |
-But my question has been, when is this ideal time? -Not now. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:42 | |
Right. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:43 | |
One thing, Dewi. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
All these figures that are thrown around, thousands of pounds worth, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:50 | |
it's all public money. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
Some interesting figures from Angharad. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
Yes, before I go to pupils from Ysgol Y Strade. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
I would like to see them getting | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
the same pay rise as people in the public sector. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:05 | |
Everybody should have the same pay rise. | 0:23:05 | 0:23:08 | |
If someone works for the county council, | 0:23:08 | 0:23:11 | |
working on the roads or something, | 0:23:11 | 0:23:14 | |
I am in favour of giving everyone the same pay rise. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
Steffan, would you be in favour of giving them more money? | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
No, I would be against giving MPs more money. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
I think we... as the Education Minister said a few years ago, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:31 | |
they should be paid according to their performance. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:36 | |
If they do well in their constituency, they can... | 0:23:36 | 0:23:39 | |
Who decides whether they've do well not? | 0:23:39 | 0:23:42 | |
Well, who decides whether teachers do well? | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
And your friend. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
I think the right time to do it is when the economy is growing. | 0:23:47 | 0:23:52 | |
You never know when things are going to happen | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
and inflation goes up and everybody suffers. | 0:23:56 | 0:24:00 | |
So the time to do it is when there is growth in the economy. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:06 | |
Let's go along the line. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:07 | |
Compared to what people in the public sector are earning, | 0:24:07 | 0:24:13 | |
I don't think it's unfair but the timing is not the best. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:19 | |
-We agree on that. Are you from Y Strade as well? -Yes. | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
Excellent. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:25 | |
I have a question for Mrs Griffith. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
Last year, you had the highest figures | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
in terms of expenses claims among MPs in Wales, | 0:24:33 | 0:24:37 | |
so what would you suggest doing with the pay rise? | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
Nia Griffith will answer that in a minute. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
Where are the people of Maes y Gwendraeth? | 0:24:44 | 0:24:47 | |
Come on, girls. I don't want to ignore your school. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
-Yes, one of you. -I disagree. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
I don't think they should get a pay rise either. | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
They should be paid according to their performance. | 0:24:57 | 0:25:01 | |
Excellent. | 0:25:01 | 0:25:03 | |
-And you? -I feel the same. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
It's unfair for them to have a pay rise when normal people don't. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:12 | |
I agree with what was said in the front. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
If they have it, everyone should have it. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:19 | |
And one more here. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
Who is going to judge the politicians? | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
They're not football players. They don't go on performance. | 0:25:25 | 0:25:29 | |
They are there to do a job and represent 90,000 people. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:33 | |
It's a difficult job. Football players earn a lot more than them. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:39 | |
Ms Griffith and Mr Edwards are not football players. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:44 | |
I suppose we the electorate judge them in the end. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:49 | |
But this independent panel has decided this. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:54 | |
Hayward Rees. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
We should remember the comparison | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
between what GPs earn, | 0:25:58 | 0:26:03 | |
which is much higher... | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
..than people in the House of Commons. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
And, of course, GPs are refusing to work at night and on the weekend. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:17 | |
I'm not an activist but these people do work on weekends. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:24 | |
They are here tonight. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
You wouldn't have a GP here tonight. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
Let's have one more voice before I go back to the panel. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
The problem is that so many people, | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
especially in the public sector, are working and living in poverty. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:42 | |
The government needs to make sure that everybody is paid fairly | 0:26:42 | 0:26:47 | |
and then there wouldn't be a problem if MPs get a pay rise. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:52 | |
Nia, there was a specific question about your expenses. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:56 | |
You can respond to that as well. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
I think people are in favour of you having more money | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
but not at the moment. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
When we ask other people to freeze their wages, | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
it's impossible for us to accept something like this. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
It's immoral. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
What we need to do | 0:27:15 | 0:27:17 | |
is to work out what is needed for the job. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:22 | |
What's worrying is, not older people like me or the young people, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:28 | |
but people in the middle who have a family, | 0:27:28 | 0:27:31 | |
we have to reflect the fact that it's difficult | 0:27:31 | 0:27:37 | |
to be in two places and we need to make sure... | 0:27:37 | 0:27:41 | |
If you had a higher salary... | 0:27:41 | 0:27:43 | |
..we have a series of people who come from all backgrounds. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
People from all income brackets. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
Not just people who are very rich. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
If you had a higher salary, | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
maybe you would not be accused of claiming too many expenses. | 0:27:57 | 0:28:02 | |
If it was higher, we wouldn't have had the expenses scandal. | 0:28:02 | 0:28:06 | |
It would be more private | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
and fewer public bodies would look at what you were doing | 0:28:09 | 0:28:15 | |
if the salaries were higher. | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
But I think the public have a right to know | 0:28:18 | 0:28:23 | |
that you are using the money well and you're not wasting money. | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
It is important that you are responsible. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
Jonathan? | 0:28:32 | 0:28:34 | |
I have a similar view. We live at a time of financial cuts, | 0:28:34 | 0:28:39 | |
where wages have been frozen in the public sector or cut in real terms. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:45 | |
Because the public sector is suffering, it is impossible | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
for us as politicians, who are part of the public sector... | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
But this independent panel has decided that this salary | 0:28:52 | 0:28:56 | |
is not good enough. | 0:28:56 | 0:28:58 | |
We might get better Members. | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
They spent £70,000 on the consultation on this issue | 0:29:00 | 0:29:06 | |
and 80% of people said politicians did not deserve more pay. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:11 | |
I'm not sure how IPSA came up with this result. | 0:29:11 | 0:29:14 | |
The unfortunate thing is, | 0:29:14 | 0:29:16 | |
this will come in after the next Westminster election | 0:29:16 | 0:29:20 | |
and this will now be an electoral issue. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
We should be talking about more important things. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:27 | |
-I think people have lost faith in IPSA. -What about politicians? | 0:29:27 | 0:29:32 | |
They've lost faith with this issue, which wasn't decided by MPs. | 0:29:32 | 0:29:36 | |
We need to change the law so that the salaries of MPs | 0:29:36 | 0:29:41 | |
is linked to the average across the public sector. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:45 | |
I supported a motion to that end in Parliament this week. | 0:29:45 | 0:29:50 | |
Before I go to the break, you both think you earn a fair salary? | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
-I'm happy with what we get. -Yes. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
That's a clear answer. | 0:29:56 | 0:29:57 | |
Thank you for your contributions. | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
We will now take a short break. Join us again in two minutes. | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
Welcome back. We are in Llanelli for this week's programme. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:23 | |
Let's go to our third question. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
Esther, what's your question? | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
A year has passed since the Census results showed | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
that the Welsh language has lost ground in Carmarthenshire. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
Is enough being done to respond to the crisis? | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
A year has passed since the Census results showed | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
that the Welsh language has lost ground in Carmarthenshire. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
Is enough being done to respond to the crisis? | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
A years since those unfavourable results. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
Angharad, how would you answer? | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
Certainly not. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:57 | |
But worse than that, plenty is being done to make sure that | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
the Welsh language does not grow in Carmarthenshire. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
In education, there are more English-medium primary schools | 0:31:03 | 0:31:07 | |
in the county now. | 0:31:07 | 0:31:10 | |
Some of the old bilingual primary schools | 0:31:10 | 0:31:14 | |
are now English-medium schools. | 0:31:14 | 0:31:18 | |
That'll make a huge difference. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:21 | |
We need to ensure that every child leaving primary school | 0:31:21 | 0:31:25 | |
in the county is fluent in the Welsh language. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:29 | |
But to implement that you need the support of parents. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:32 | |
Is that why this is happening? The support's not there. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:36 | |
I disagree. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:38 | |
It should be a policy within the county council and the Assembly. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:43 | |
-Compulsory? -Compulsory. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:45 | |
Being bilingual is more beneficial than speaking one language. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:50 | |
We know that. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:52 | |
Then you have the housing policy. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
If you look at schemes like Penybanc near Ammanford, | 0:31:55 | 0:31:59 | |
hundreds of new houses are being built but there are no new jobs. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:03 | |
That means more people will move into the area to buy homes | 0:32:03 | 0:32:06 | |
and because of the education system, if they have children, | 0:32:06 | 0:32:10 | |
they will send them to English-medium primary schools | 0:32:10 | 0:32:14 | |
rather than accepting that if they move to Ammanford | 0:32:14 | 0:32:17 | |
that the Welsh language is used in schools. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
And, thirdly, there has been significant growth | 0:32:20 | 0:32:24 | |
in Welsh-medium education in the south-east. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:27 | |
In Cardiff, any child can have all kinds of | 0:32:27 | 0:32:31 | |
extracurricular opportunities through the medium of Welsh. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:35 | |
It could be tennis, football, rugby, swimming and so on. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:40 | |
But the facilities are there. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:42 | |
The facilities are here but the county council needs to make sure | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
the lessons are provided. Without a strategy it's not going to happen. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:50 | |
The teachers need resources too. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
The budget for Welsh language initiatives has also been cut. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:58 | |
While you have a Labour and Independent council | 0:32:58 | 0:33:02 | |
without a strategy to ensure that the Welsh language grows | 0:33:02 | 0:33:08 | |
there is no hope of improving the situation. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:13 | |
In that case, the answer is to elect councillors. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:17 | |
-Owain? -I'm disappointed with the figures. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:21 | |
I was surprised that so few children went through Welsh-medium education. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:26 | |
From what I've seen, I thought more children were getting opportunities | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
in Welsh-language schools. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:32 | |
They have closed schools in areas where the numbers were very low | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
and centralised them in bigger schools. | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
I must admit that the figures have disappointed me. | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
-I hope... -What do you think needs to be done? | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
Do you agree that more force is needed? | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
I don't agree with forcing people to do anything | 0:33:49 | 0:33:52 | |
but I think people should be given the confidence | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
to be educated through the medium of Welsh. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
We need the facilities to do business in Welsh. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:01 | |
And I think we all have a duty to use the Welsh language more often. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:05 | |
I talk to my colleagues in business in English rather than Welsh. | 0:34:05 | 0:34:10 | |
I don't use it as often as I should. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:14 | |
-Do you blame yourself? -Yes. We have a duty. | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
But in the field of engineering, some of the technical terms | 0:34:17 | 0:34:20 | |
are not as well-known as the English words. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:24 | |
If three or four of us are talking and one doesn't speak Welsh, | 0:34:24 | 0:34:29 | |
it becomes a habit of speaking in English every time. | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
I think we need to make it easier for people to use the language. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:36 | |
I agree that we need more young people to use the language. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:42 | |
I remember children who were in school with me | 0:34:42 | 0:34:46 | |
who have left the country and lost their language | 0:34:46 | 0:34:49 | |
and when they come back they are disappointed they have lost it. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:52 | |
It's fashionable in some areas | 0:34:52 | 0:34:55 | |
for children with English-speaking parents. | 0:34:55 | 0:34:58 | |
If you look at the statistics, you can see that the number of | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
young people speaking Welsh is going up. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:07 | |
Welsh-language schools are very popular in this area. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:12 | |
They use the language when they are at school. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:16 | |
The problem is how to promote the language | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
after people leave school. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:21 | |
-What's important... -It's seen as the language of the classroom. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:25 | |
What's important to young people? Things like texting. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
Predictive text turns everything into English | 0:35:29 | 0:35:32 | |
and you give up trying to do it in Welsh. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:35 | |
-You need to... -Turn off the predictive text. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:38 | |
We need a Welsh language predictive text. | 0:35:38 | 0:35:42 | |
We need more extracurricular activities... | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
What about Angharad's points about the county council... | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
..for children to take part in. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
What about Angharad's points about the county council | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
not offering enough leadership? | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
The county council has helped a lot of Welsh-medium schools to grow | 0:35:56 | 0:36:02 | |
and that's important, but you can't force people. | 0:36:02 | 0:36:06 | |
The language is something very personal. | 0:36:06 | 0:36:08 | |
You need opportunities in different environments, | 0:36:08 | 0:36:12 | |
because you use different languages. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
One in work and one at home, perhaps. | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
Two panellists reject your idea of making it compulsory, Angharad. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:23 | |
Promote, not force. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
Another thing, | 0:36:25 | 0:36:27 | |
a lot of people who move into the county from areas like Swansea, | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
they do it in order to get more Welsh and to be in Welsh areas | 0:36:31 | 0:36:36 | |
and they use the Welsh schools. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
They raise their children speaking Welsh. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
But you're talking as if the language is growing in this area | 0:36:41 | 0:36:45 | |
when the statistics show that the language | 0:36:45 | 0:36:49 | |
is not growing in this area. | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
If we don't do something specific about it, | 0:36:53 | 0:36:57 | |
it will be a dead language in areas | 0:36:57 | 0:37:02 | |
where the large majority of people used to speak it. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:05 | |
In terms of force, it can work. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:08 | |
In Tinopolis, Welsh is the only language of the workplace. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
-From time to time... -Is it a set policy? -Yes. | 0:37:12 | 0:37:16 | |
From time to time, someone comes in who can't speak Welsh, | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
they have lessons. | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
They are fluent almost immediately because they're surrounded by... | 0:37:22 | 0:37:26 | |
Thank you, Angharad. I see you're desperate to come in, Jonathan. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
Let's be honest, the Census figures were disastrous in Carmarthenshire. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:34 | |
-It was a 7% drop... -Nia's throwing a different light on it. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
Let me talk. You've had your say, with respect. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:41 | |
A 7% drop in Carmarthenshire | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
and Welsh speakers are in the minority for the first time. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
It's a psychological blow. In Ammanford, a 12% drop. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
The first thing the Labour and Independent county council did | 0:37:52 | 0:37:55 | |
was to support a new housing estate in Penybanc, | 0:37:55 | 0:37:58 | |
one of the only Welsh-speaking industrial towns we have left, | 0:37:58 | 0:38:03 | |
300 houses - a hundred more than we saw in the development scheme. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:08 | |
More houses will be built in Carmarthenshire over the next decade | 0:38:08 | 0:38:12 | |
under Labour plans than in Cardiff and Swansea put together. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
The Labour and Independent county councillors | 0:38:15 | 0:38:19 | |
refused to have any kind of language impact assessment | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
on the scheme, which will destroy Penybanc as a Welsh-speaking town, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:27 | |
and it's a disgrace. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
You can answer that, Nia, before I go to the audience. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
The two reasons why the statistics... | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
What about the housing development? | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
One minute. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
I've said that the number of young people is growing. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
We have to remember that the people who were born in the 1920s | 0:38:50 | 0:38:54 | |
are dying and people of my age, who were not given the chance | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
to go to a Welsh-medium school... | 0:38:58 | 0:39:03 | |
there are a lot of them. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
The baby-boomers and so on. | 0:39:05 | 0:39:08 | |
The fact is, with the young people, things are improving. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
With houses, it depends on the place. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:14 | |
I've opposed building a lot of houses | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
where it's inappropriate to do so. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:19 | |
I don't agree that the council has sat back and done nothing. | 0:39:19 | 0:39:24 | |
It has created several Welsh streams in schools. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:29 | |
A lot of schools are offering both languages. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:33 | |
It's not fair on the county. | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
We need leadership from the council. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:40 | |
A working party has been set up under Kevin Campbell. | 0:39:40 | 0:39:43 | |
I can't think of anyone better. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
The county council needs to say it is adopting the recommendations. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:50 | |
If it doesn't, we know where Labour stand on the Welsh language. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:54 | |
Let's go to the audience. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
Over here. | 0:39:56 | 0:39:58 | |
I would like to agree with Angharad Mair's point. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:02 | |
There's a feeling in Wales that we have to apologise | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
for using our language. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:07 | |
It should be a subject that you have to study in school. | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
It has educational benefits. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
Everyone knows that being bilingual helps your development. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:17 | |
There is a lot of work to do with regard to training more teachers. | 0:40:17 | 0:40:21 | |
That is the problem. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:22 | |
There is not enough people available to do the work. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
Having said that, I know a lot of teachers | 0:40:25 | 0:40:29 | |
who can speak Welsh, but they can't get any jobs in Welsh schools | 0:40:29 | 0:40:33 | |
and are working in English schools. | 0:40:33 | 0:40:36 | |
I know a lot of schools, for example in Llanelli, have Welsh departments. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:42 | |
A lot of work is being done in Treorchy in the valleys. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:46 | |
There are plenty of teachers - the language needs to be given priority. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
Yes? | 0:40:50 | 0:40:53 | |
With young adults especially, | 0:40:53 | 0:40:56 | |
they have to take responsibility for the language. | 0:40:56 | 0:41:00 | |
A lot of young people enjoy going out | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
and I think they should have discounts in nightclubs | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
for speaking Welsh, to make it cool. | 0:41:10 | 0:41:12 | |
-Is it cool at the moment? -It is cool to speak Welsh. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:16 | |
I think parents who live in Wales who speak English | 0:41:16 | 0:41:22 | |
and don't put their children into Welsh schools | 0:41:22 | 0:41:26 | |
do it because they can't do the homework with their children. | 0:41:26 | 0:41:30 | |
Parents like to work with their children on their homework | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
but there's no help at home for the children of English-speaking parents | 0:41:33 | 0:41:37 | |
who put their children in Welsh-medium schools. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:41 | |
How do we overcome that? | 0:41:41 | 0:41:43 | |
I don't know. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:45 | |
Yes? | 0:41:45 | 0:41:46 | |
I agree with Angharad. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:48 | |
Confidence is a huge thing with regard to speaking Welsh. | 0:41:48 | 0:41:54 | |
If you come from an English-speaking family and go to a Welsh school, | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
my parents are trying to learn Welsh but they have no confidence, | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
and they're very shy. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:05 | |
That's why confidence is so important. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:08 | |
Eifion Davies. | 0:42:08 | 0:42:10 | |
I attended a Christmas Carol concert in the town last Saturday. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:14 | |
There was a children's choir, a mixed choir, | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
a male voice choir and an orchestra. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
We sang carols in English, | 0:42:19 | 0:42:23 | |
Latin and German, but not Welsh. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:28 | |
The person presenting the concert, at the end of the concert, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:33 | |
wished everyone a merry Christmas in English, | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
not a word of Welsh. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:39 | |
But is that the nature of Llanelli these days? | 0:42:39 | 0:42:42 | |
-I was disappointed. -I have to hear from Esther. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
I don't think forcing people to speak the language | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
is the right way forward. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:50 | |
Coming from a Welsh language school, | 0:42:50 | 0:42:52 | |
you don't want people to think of the language as a burden. | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
-You want them to enjoy speaking it. -There we are. | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
What about you, shaking your head? Yes? | 0:42:59 | 0:43:02 | |
For me, we certainly need to promote the language, | 0:43:02 | 0:43:06 | |
not see it as a burden, like Esther said. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:08 | |
I treasure the fact that I can use Welsh | 0:43:08 | 0:43:12 | |
every day with my parents and friends. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:14 | |
We need to try and promote it among young people | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
and not blame the region's schools. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
A hopeful and encouraging note upon which to close that discussion. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:25 | |
Thanks. I could have gone on all night but it's time for a break. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:28 | |
Join us again in Llanelli after the adverts. | 0:43:28 | 0:43:30 | |
Welcome back to Llanelli for the last Pawb a'i Farn before Christmas. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:53 | |
Time has flown | 0:43:53 | 0:43:55 | |
and we've only got time for one more question from Sian Evans. | 0:43:55 | 0:43:58 | |
Sian, what is your question? | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
Following the death of Nelson Mandela, | 0:44:01 | 0:44:03 | |
what can our politicians learn | 0:44:03 | 0:44:05 | |
from his willingness to forgive his enemies? | 0:44:05 | 0:44:09 | |
Thank you, Sian. | 0:44:09 | 0:44:10 | |
On the subject of the death we heard about last Thursday. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:14 | |
Following the death of Nelson Mandela, | 0:44:14 | 0:44:16 | |
what can our politicians learn | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
from his willingness to forgive his enemies? | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
I'll start with you, Nia, if I may. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:25 | |
I think one of the most important things we can learn | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
from Mandela is how to work with people who have been fierce enemies. | 0:44:29 | 0:44:35 | |
This is very important in the world today. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
If you think about Northern Ireland, for instance, | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
people are working together but tensions remain. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:45 | |
It's very difficult to work with people who were enemies. | 0:44:45 | 0:44:50 | |
If you take the poorest countries in the world, war-torn countries | 0:44:50 | 0:44:57 | |
that are unstable because it isn't possible for them to develop | 0:44:57 | 0:45:03 | |
without cooperation, without reconciliation. | 0:45:03 | 0:45:07 | |
It's very important that we, in the world of politics, | 0:45:08 | 0:45:14 | |
do our very best to help. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:19 | |
For instance, in the Middle East it's very important to seek | 0:45:19 | 0:45:23 | |
-reconciliation and this is one of the biggest lessons. -Angharad. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:27 | |
Well, I think there's a lot that can be done and I must say, | 0:45:27 | 0:45:33 | |
I've never heard so many insincere comments from certain politicians | 0:45:33 | 0:45:37 | |
-than I have over the past week. -Praising him, you mean? | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
One of Mandela's most famous quotes was, | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
"Social equality is the only basis of human happiness." | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
It is easy for us to agree with that over here | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
when we consider a far-away country like South Africa. | 0:45:51 | 0:45:56 | |
I almost choked when I heard Russell Goodway, | 0:45:56 | 0:45:58 | |
former leader of Cardiff Council, on television last week, | 0:45:58 | 0:46:01 | |
saying that Nelson Mandela had told him how much of an honour it | 0:46:01 | 0:46:03 | |
was for him, Mandela, to meet Russell Goodway. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:07 | |
Nobody has done more to ensure that social equality doesn't exist | 0:46:07 | 0:46:10 | |
for Welsh speaking people in the capital city! | 0:46:10 | 0:46:12 | |
He was the one to end the Welsh festival Tafwyl | 0:46:12 | 0:46:14 | |
in the capital this year. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:16 | |
Thanks to Leighton Andrews for stepping in, there. | 0:46:16 | 0:46:19 | |
We're talking about a totally different situation, there. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
We're talking about real conflict in South Africa. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:26 | |
He has made sure that Welsh education in the capital city | 0:46:26 | 0:46:29 | |
is suffering, refusing to open a new school in the Grangetown area, | 0:46:29 | 0:46:34 | |
opening an English school | 0:46:34 | 0:46:36 | |
while Welsh pupils are pushed into one school | 0:46:36 | 0:46:39 | |
-instead of receiving the proper facilities. -Thanks. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
It's fine to say that but we need to apply Nelson Mandela's words | 0:46:42 | 0:46:45 | |
-to our local context as well as worldwide. -Owain Davies. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:49 | |
I think Nelson Mandela has taught us all an important lesson, | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
especially the young people in the audience tonight. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
For the man to say, "let bygones be bygones" | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
after all he went through, he sets an exceptional example. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:04 | |
I think politicians have to consider that things move on in the world | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
and they must learn to move with them. | 0:47:07 | 0:47:10 | |
I think that's the greatest lesson. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:13 | |
It doesn't matter what their policies were yesterday, | 0:47:13 | 0:47:16 | |
they need to re-evaluate them today to secure a bright future. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:19 | |
I think that's the most valuable lesson I've learned in business, | 0:47:19 | 0:47:23 | |
because it's a dog-eat-dog world, as they say in English. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:26 | |
Sometimes you've got to think back and think, | 0:47:26 | 0:47:28 | |
"Do I have the right to have this strong opinion of somebody? | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
Maybe I should hold back." | 0:47:32 | 0:47:34 | |
-Does that mean you want Nia and Jonathan to work together more? -Yes. | 0:47:34 | 0:47:39 | |
Definitely. I think that's very important. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:41 | |
They need to weigh up their strengths | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
and learn from their weaknesses. That's what Nelson... | 0:47:44 | 0:47:48 | |
But isn't debate at the heart of politics? | 0:47:48 | 0:47:52 | |
But sometimes you need to move on with a dose of common sense. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:55 | |
-They're not good at doing that. -We need better opposition in Wales. | 0:47:55 | 0:47:59 | |
Let's hear from Jonathan. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:01 | |
The greatest thing about Mandela, in my opinion, | 0:48:01 | 0:48:04 | |
was his political values. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
I think he was an uncompromising politician. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:10 | |
he was jailed and he had an opportunity to negotiate with | 0:48:10 | 0:48:13 | |
the apartheid government but he wasn't prepared to until he and his | 0:48:13 | 0:48:18 | |
colleagues were freed, which meant he spent much longer in prison. | 0:48:18 | 0:48:21 | |
He wouldn't compromise and give up on his beliefs. | 0:48:21 | 0:48:23 | |
I remember, for instance, | 0:48:23 | 0:48:25 | |
arranging buses to London to protest against the Iraq war | 0:48:25 | 0:48:28 | |
and Mandela had long stepped down as South African president. | 0:48:28 | 0:48:32 | |
He was speaking out against Tony Blair | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
and George Bush for what they intended to do. | 0:48:35 | 0:48:37 | |
Can I just end with this? | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
Jose Mourinho rarely talks sense but he did this week. | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
He said that he doesn't feel worthy to comment on Mandela's greatness. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:48 | |
I fully support what Angharad said about some of the things | 0:48:48 | 0:48:52 | |
we've seen this week from some politicians. | 0:48:52 | 0:48:54 | |
Owain is asking for you to cooperate with not only Nia | 0:48:54 | 0:48:58 | |
but the Conservatives. | 0:48:58 | 0:49:00 | |
Why not cooperate with the Conservatives in Cardiff Bay? | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
From where I'm sitting, Labour and the Conservatives are just as bad as | 0:49:03 | 0:49:06 | |
each other and I'll work with anyone who'll move the country forward. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
So Mandela's legacy isn't alive and well as far as you're concerned. | 0:49:09 | 0:49:13 | |
Let's have a sentence from Sian. A sentence. | 0:49:13 | 0:49:16 | |
Sometimes... I think it takes more of a man | 0:49:16 | 0:49:18 | |
to extend a hand instead of reaching for a gun. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:21 | |
Wonderful, Sian. Thank you very much. | 0:49:21 | 0:49:24 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:49:24 | 0:49:26 | |
Wonderful. Thank you to our audience. | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
And thanks to the panel. That's all from Llanelli. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
We'll be back in the New Year but Merry Christmas to you all. Goodbye. | 0:49:32 | 0:49:36 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:50:01 | 0:50:03 |