12/12/2013 Pawb a'i Farn


12/12/2013

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Transcript


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On our panel tonight -

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Owain Davies, the manager of an engineering company

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and a member of CBI Cymru.

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The editor of Heno which is broadcast every night from this town,

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Angharad Mair.

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The Llanelli MP and the Labour Welsh spokesperson, Nia Griffith.

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For Plaid Cymru, the Carmarthen East and Dinefwr MP Jonathan Edwards.

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Please welcome them all.

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Good evening and welcome to the programme.

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It's Thursday night, Pawb a'i Farn night,

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and I hope we have a lively hour of discussion.

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That should be possible not only because of our panel,

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but also because we are in Llanelli and the people from this town

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as well as from the villages from Trimsaran to Trefach,

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from Pontyberem to Burry Port, are used to giving us

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their opinions on this programme.

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I am confident tonight won't be different.

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After three programmes, I wonder whether our new timeslot pleases you.

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You can contact us through the usual methods.

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This is our final programme before Christmas,

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but in January we'll be back in Bethesda, Pontardawe and Llangefni.

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Tonight, we are in Llanelli and the first question, please?

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Steffan, your question please.

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This week, we heard that patients have had to wait for hours

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in ambulances outside the emergency units of our hospitals.

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How do we solve the problem?

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Thank you for the first question.

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This week we heard that patients had to wait for hours

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in ambulances outside the emergency units of our hospitals.

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How do we solve that problem? Let's start with Jonathan Edwards.

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When we discuss the NHS in Wales,

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it is important to remember that the staff achieve miracles every day.

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My wife is expecting a baby in the next few weeks

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and we know we are going to get excellent care

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when the big day arrives.

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The truth is with regard to these statistics,

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Wales has the worst statistics in the UK

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when it comes to transferring patients from ambulances into A&E.

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The images this week were quite iconic, I think.

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It showed the failure of the health policy in Wales.

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Almost 20 ambulances waiting in the car park in Morriston Hospital,

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doctors had to treat patients in the back of the ambulance.

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There are three things that need to be done.

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I was in Llandovery hospital recently in my constituency

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and the beds were completely full of patients who are ready

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to go back out to have community care.

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We have to solve this bed-blocking problem.

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It is a long-term problem and the Government has not done

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what's needed to strengthen social services.

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Secondly, we have to look at ways of raising capital

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within the NHS. That's we've published a policy of...

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But the money is not available?

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We are in a time of heavy cuts. The money isn't available.

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This is the point I'm trying to make.

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That's why Plaid Cymru has announced a policy

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of putting taxes on drinks which are full of sugar.

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That allows us to raise money.

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It stops people buying these drinks, which harms the health.

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It also raises money for investment in the service.

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-What is the third point?

-What was the third point?

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Excellent. I'll move on. Nia Griffith?

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What we need to do is get the patients from the ambulances

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into the hospitals.

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We need to recruit more doctors.

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I'm glad the Health Minister told the Llanelli Star today

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that we are going to have a team of doctors in the emergency unit

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in Prince Philip Hospital.

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I have to say the Welsh Government has given the Health Service

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an extra £560 million.

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That reflects the priorities of the people of Wales.

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Does it also reflect the failure of the Labour policy

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as Jonathan suggested?

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The third point, we need to look again at the policy

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they have of centralising services and downgrading services.

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Where are the ambulances which go to Prince Philip Hospital,

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where are they going to go?

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The call won't decrease.

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They'll go to Glangwili, Morriston.

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It creates more problems in other hospitals.

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That is the point. The extra money is there to recruit more doctors.

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What we also need is more specialists to help them.

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If patients come in,

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we need to keep most of the services in our local hospitals.

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That's the important point.

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But, at the same time, we have to think about other things

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we can do, like getting rid of bed-blocking.

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We need to do other things too.

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The last time I met with the Ambulance Services,

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they said one of the biggest problems is the fact that

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doctors at the end of the morning and at the end of the afternoon

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go out to see patients and come together the same time.

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With mobile phones and so on, some doctors could go earlier.

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You're raising all sorts of points there. Angharad Mair?

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A few simple things could be done.

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We need to persuade people they have to go to the pharmacy first

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before going to the GP.

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We need to improve the GP service.

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You can't blame people for going to emergency units

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if they can't get an appointment with their GP.

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I understand why people in Llanelli have raised this question.

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Nia Griffith said there are going to be more doctors

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in Prince Philip Hospital.

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But they are empty words because the emergency unit is going to close.

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So you don't believe what Nia Griffiths has just said?

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That doctors will lead this?

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There will be doctors and nurses there

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and the emergency unit will be gone.

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That has been made clear.

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People will have to go to Carmarthen and Morriston Hospital.

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That's more than 20 miles away.

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Most of them will be treated here in Llanelli.

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They will continue to be treated in Llanelli.

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Apart from those with heart problems.

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-No, no...

-One at a time.

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Nia Griffith has stood in opposition to her own party's policy

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for the past few years, now she supports it.

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Can I give you some statistics.

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In 2012, 33,000 people went to the emergency unit in Llanelli.

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6,800 of them are emergency cases.

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That means now they would be moved to Morriston or Carmarthen.

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It isn't far. It is only half an hour.

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It's 20 miles to Carmarthen. It's 30 minutes to Morriston.

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When you are talking about an emergency situation,

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and if you are not treated immediately with something

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like a heart attack, your chances of surviving is reduced.

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The most important question is,

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where's the money going to come from?

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In 2009, when the Health Boards were cut from 22 to seven and,

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obviously, many of the highest jobs disappeared, none of them

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were asked to go voluntarily

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and nobody was made redundant.

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Of all the health boards we had,

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they are all still being paid and are still getting their pensions.

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If we got rid of the people without jobs,

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there would be enough money left.

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That point has been raised before. Owain?

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It's terrible that people are being treated in the back of an ambulance.

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We have to consider in these times that people

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get the treatment they need.

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We have to consider that Llanelli is a place...

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It is the second biggest town in Carmarthenshire.

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We need these services in Llanelli.

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If what Nia says is true,

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Maybe at this point I can jump in.

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I knew this topic was going to be raised

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and we have had a statement from the Welsh Government

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which should interest the audience.

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This is what the Welsh Government has said today.

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The Health Minister has made it clear that the Prince Philip Hospital

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emergency unit will be led clinically by doctors,

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along with nurses who specialise in the field.

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That's the statement by the Welsh Government.

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You referred to the Llanelli Star, which also has an article

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with Mark Drakeford, the Health Minister

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and he says the same in that article.

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But he was asked what exactly does it mean with regard to having doctors

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in the hospital.

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The answer was it means a GP on the site.

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Is that the same as having the kind of doctors you would expect?

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It's something for you to think about while I go back to Owain.

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I think that is an important argument.

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The only thing we haven't considered is,

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we have to ensure that nurses have the ability.

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It's different these days to how it was before.

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Every nurse has a degree these days.

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The standard and technology has improved.

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But I don't think that will answer the problem we have in Llanelli.

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As Angharad Mair said,

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the number of people using the site is a huge number.

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They need the treatment they deserve.

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I don't think people are being treated in the back of an ambulance

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is something we should accept.

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It is not a unique situation in Llanelli.

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It happens in Morriston and it happens in North Wales.

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But the question is how to solve the problem?

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We all have a duty to ensure that we consider what to do.

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Do we go to A&E?

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Or do we go to the GP?

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Sometimes we are too ready to go to A&E?

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Yes, we have to consider what type of treatment we require.

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The panel come back in a moment.

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Let's go to the audience.

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As a secretary of the friends of the hospital I can say this,

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it is not acceptable that they are treated in the ambulance.

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But they are safer because the paramedic is looking after them

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in the ambulance.

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If they went into the hospital,

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they would have a few minutes without attention.

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They are safer in the ambulance before they go into the hospital.

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Yes, come in on that.

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The point is the ambulance crews do a very difficult job

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under difficult circumstances and they should be praised.

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One of the factors that affects the problem,

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one of them the lack of beds in hospitals.

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They've closed many beds in Welsh hospitals over the last few years.

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That is adding to the crisis.

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But nobody accepts there is a crisis.

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The other thing is care in the community.

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It is a good idea but every good idea

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needs to financed fairly in order for it to be successful.

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Where is the money?

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The Government has to consider the problems seriously.

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Huw Richards in the back.

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It is a huge problem throughout Wales.

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The fact is money is the bottom line.

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They are talking about more doctors for this area,

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but they won't come to West Wales.

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That is a problem.

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If we can't attract them, it doesn't matter how much you'll pay them

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that continues to be a problem.

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Would you like GP surgeries to open for longer?

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Maybe that would solve the problem.

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Maybe you could go to the surgery later at night or on the weekend.

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That is a problem.

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Getting an appointment with a GP is a problem to start with.

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You have to prepare for a fortnight before you get ill.

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That is often the situation.

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How about you in the front row? Let's move the microphone down.

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The fact is we are living longer.

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The population is getting older.

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That is a good thing,

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but because we are living older, there is more illness.

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There is not enough room in the hospitals.

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We need more hospitals, more beds,

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more money and the politicians are playing with the situation.

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Why don't they get hold of the problem and increase income tax?

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Or get the millions which are spent on the lottery

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and have some kind of special lottery

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and the money goes to the NHS?

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But people aren't willing to pay more income tax?

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How much money is spent on the lottery?

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They pay that, no problem.

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Sian Evans.

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There is a problem in Wales and in Britain as a whole.

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But there are a lot of beds in the hospitals.

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I visited a hospital recently and there were many beds

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but they were not being used because there was no staff

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to look after the patients.

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So maybe there are beds, but not enough staff.

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So it isn't bed-blocking but not enough staff, no nurses.

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-Not enough nurses.

-Yes?

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One other thing is the Labour Party hasn't been clear enough

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in what their policy is.

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Mark Drakeford said in September that it would a nurse-led

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system, not doctors.

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Now he's saying something different,

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maybe as a result of the campaign in Llanelli.

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But he has been very clear in his statement.

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But it's contrary to what he said three months ago.

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Yes, you in the back row.

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People are trying to sort this out

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but you need to look at what's happening.

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The health board is quite happy to see the ambulances outside

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A&E or outside the hospital where the people are safe.

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They haven't given us the service we need so they save money.

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They should spend more money on what's inside the hospital

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and somebody should say every 20 minutes the ambulance

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is outside the hospital the health board should be fined.

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They'd soon find the money and make changes.

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If nobody does anything it will be like this forever.

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Are we patients too quick to call an ambulance?

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If there's something wrong, ambulance.

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If you need an ambulance, you need an ambulance,

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but it doesn't need to be outside the hospital for an hour or two

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or three.

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If the health board had to pay the Ambulance Service for that time,

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they would change straightaway and they wouldn't spend the money.

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But while they're not paying,

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they don't care that the Ambulance Service is spending money.

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Let's go back to the panel.

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Nia, was it a mistake to give this new contract to GPs?

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That's changed. Rather than being available, as they were before,

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it's difficult to get hold of them and people go to emergency units.

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To be fair to people who have called an ambulance,

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the Service says that the majority of people who go to hospital

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in an ambulance need it.

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The thing is, we're getting older, as the gentleman said.

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It is very important that we reflect the fact

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that there is more demand for the service.

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In West Wales we need to recruit better,

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not only for the hospital but for the GP service.

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It's difficult to find them, as Huw said.

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It is true of all our rural areas.

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It is difficult to get people to come to this area

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because of uncertainty over their jobs.

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That's the problem.

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If the money was available and the hospital invested in the future,

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more and more people would get the best treatment.

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Llanelli is a hospital with several areas of expertise.

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Breast cancer, I think.

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The orthopaedic surgery is excellent.

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We don't say enough about that.

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Should we accept that every hospital

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-is not going to specialise in every field?

-They're not.

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-Angharad?

-That is true.

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I have nothing against centralising services

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like intensive care for children

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or heart disease, cancer and so on.

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But, coming back to your point, which is important,

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I think we should prioritise young people who want to be doctors.

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They should go to the University Hospital in Cardiff.

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At the moment they are competing against everybody else in Britain.

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They should be encouraged, especially if they speak Welsh,

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to come back to these areas as doctors.

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The last word from you, Jonathan.

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The health boards and the Labour government

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need to be honest with people.

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They've tried to write off the problems in West Wales

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for clinical reasons.

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But we all know that it all comes down to financial problems.

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That's why we've put more money in.

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That's why people have lost faith in the Labour government.

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You can respond, Nia.

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That is why the Welsh government has decided to give the NHS more money.

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There is a shortage and that's a problem.

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-That's why they've done that.

-That is the end of our first topic.

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Let's have the second question from Alwyn Jones.

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Is there any way of justifying an 11% pay rise for MPs

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at a time of severe financial cuts?

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Alwyn sounds doubtful.

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Is there any way of justifying an 11% pay rise for MPs

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at a time of severe financial cuts?

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I'll come to the MPs in a moment. Owain, I'll start with you.

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We have to make sure that we get the best people.

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I think the pay rise would be fair at another point in time.

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It is the timing that is the problem.

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We have seen scandals in the past

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to do with expenses.

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I think re-setting the pay and the expenses is a good idea.

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But is now the time to do this?

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-And is 11%...

-But when is it convenient to do it?

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It's not.

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The problem we have at the moment is the cuts in the public sector,

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people are being made redundant and it's not the right time

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to have this kind of pay rise at the moment.

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APPLAUSE

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You may applaud.

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-But in principle you would be willing to pay MPs £74,000 a year?

-Yes.

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I think it's fair for the responsibilities they have

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and the hours they have to work.

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They have to do more work and stop arguing about nothing at times

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but many in the business industry say that.

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Angharad, do they deserve £74,000?

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I have to admit, in this difficult time, with the economic situation

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as it is, it would be terrible if the MPs accepted a pay rise.

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And yet I do have sympathy for MPs.

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If you look at the county council,

0:19:570:20:01

one person earns over £200,000 year.

0:20:010:20:05

Four earn over £130,000 a year.

0:20:050:20:09

20 people on Carmarthenshire Council earn over £80,000.

0:20:090:20:14

That's 25 people on your county council - you pay their salaries

0:20:140:20:18

and their pensions - here in Carmarthenshire,

0:20:180:20:22

in one of the most deprived areas,

0:20:220:20:26

and our officials on the county council

0:20:260:20:31

are among the highest paid in Wales.

0:20:310:20:33

When you look at the whole situation,

0:20:330:20:37

and an independent panel has looked at this pay rise for MPs,

0:20:370:20:43

the same independent panel should come to Wales to change things,

0:20:430:20:47

so that we have more consistency.

0:20:470:20:49

APPLAUSE

0:20:490:20:51

And if there's one thing that makes me angry,

0:20:530:20:58

it's hearing millionaires like Cameron and Clegg and Miliband

0:20:580:21:03

and Osborne and Hunt, saying some MPs should not have a pay rise.

0:21:030:21:09

I think they should reject their entire salaries as MPs

0:21:090:21:14

in order to encourage less fortunate people to go into politics

0:21:140:21:19

-to represent us.

-So you think they deserve but not now?

0:21:190:21:23

The timing is terrible for them to have a pay rise now.

0:21:230:21:27

They should not have it now.

0:21:270:21:29

But when you compare it to other people,

0:21:290:21:33

you have to look at it fairly.

0:21:330:21:36

Let's hear from the audience. Would you be in favour of the pay rise?

0:21:360:21:41

Alwyn, you asked the question. Let's get the microphone to you.

0:21:410:21:44

No, I would not accept it.

0:21:440:21:47

When you consider the situation in the country and all the poverty,

0:21:470:21:52

I am against it.

0:21:520:21:54

Erm, Haydn... Yes, you first.

0:21:540:21:57

Even talking about 11%...

0:21:570:22:00

1% now and 9% in 2015, it's politically insane.

0:22:000:22:05

The leaders of the three main parties in London have said

0:22:050:22:10

they should not accept it and I think they're playing games.

0:22:100:22:13

They'd be happy to accept it.

0:22:130:22:16

What they should do is...

0:22:160:22:18

They say this is an independent body and we can't do anything about it.

0:22:180:22:23

Then you should agree to put all the money back

0:22:230:22:26

and we should have a list of those who give it back

0:22:260:22:29

and those who don't.

0:22:290:22:32

At a different time, I would be with Owain and Angharad.

0:22:320:22:37

-But my question has been, when is this ideal time?

-Not now.

0:22:370:22:42

Right.

0:22:420:22:43

One thing, Dewi.

0:22:430:22:45

All these figures that are thrown around, thousands of pounds worth,

0:22:450:22:50

it's all public money.

0:22:500:22:52

Some interesting figures from Angharad.

0:22:530:22:56

Yes, before I go to pupils from Ysgol Y Strade.

0:22:560:22:59

I would like to see them getting

0:22:590:23:01

the same pay rise as people in the public sector.

0:23:010:23:05

Everybody should have the same pay rise.

0:23:050:23:08

If someone works for the county council,

0:23:080:23:11

working on the roads or something,

0:23:110:23:14

I am in favour of giving everyone the same pay rise.

0:23:140:23:18

Steffan, would you be in favour of giving them more money?

0:23:180:23:21

No, I would be against giving MPs more money.

0:23:210:23:25

I think we... as the Education Minister said a few years ago,

0:23:250:23:31

they should be paid according to their performance.

0:23:310:23:36

If they do well in their constituency, they can...

0:23:360:23:39

Who decides whether they've do well not?

0:23:390:23:42

Well, who decides whether teachers do well?

0:23:420:23:45

And your friend.

0:23:450:23:47

I think the right time to do it is when the economy is growing.

0:23:470:23:52

You never know when things are going to happen

0:23:520:23:56

and inflation goes up and everybody suffers.

0:23:560:24:00

So the time to do it is when there is growth in the economy.

0:24:000:24:06

Let's go along the line.

0:24:060:24:07

Compared to what people in the public sector are earning,

0:24:070:24:13

I don't think it's unfair but the timing is not the best.

0:24:130:24:19

-We agree on that. Are you from Y Strade as well?

-Yes.

0:24:190:24:24

Excellent.

0:24:240:24:25

I have a question for Mrs Griffith.

0:24:250:24:28

Last year, you had the highest figures

0:24:280:24:33

in terms of expenses claims among MPs in Wales,

0:24:330:24:37

so what would you suggest doing with the pay rise?

0:24:370:24:41

Nia Griffith will answer that in a minute.

0:24:410:24:44

Where are the people of Maes y Gwendraeth?

0:24:440:24:47

Come on, girls. I don't want to ignore your school.

0:24:470:24:50

-Yes, one of you.

-I disagree.

0:24:500:24:53

I don't think they should get a pay rise either.

0:24:530:24:57

They should be paid according to their performance.

0:24:570:25:01

Excellent.

0:25:010:25:03

-And you?

-I feel the same.

0:25:030:25:06

It's unfair for them to have a pay rise when normal people don't.

0:25:060:25:12

I agree with what was said in the front.

0:25:120:25:15

If they have it, everyone should have it.

0:25:150:25:19

And one more here.

0:25:190:25:21

Who is going to judge the politicians?

0:25:210:25:25

They're not football players. They don't go on performance.

0:25:250:25:29

They are there to do a job and represent 90,000 people.

0:25:290:25:33

It's a difficult job. Football players earn a lot more than them.

0:25:330:25:39

Ms Griffith and Mr Edwards are not football players.

0:25:390:25:44

I suppose we the electorate judge them in the end.

0:25:440:25:49

But this independent panel has decided this.

0:25:490:25:54

Hayward Rees.

0:25:540:25:56

We should remember the comparison

0:25:560:25:58

between what GPs earn,

0:25:580:26:03

which is much higher...

0:26:030:26:07

..than people in the House of Commons.

0:26:080:26:11

And, of course, GPs are refusing to work at night and on the weekend.

0:26:110:26:17

I'm not an activist but these people do work on weekends.

0:26:170:26:24

They are here tonight.

0:26:240:26:26

You wouldn't have a GP here tonight.

0:26:260:26:29

Let's have one more voice before I go back to the panel.

0:26:290:26:33

The problem is that so many people,

0:26:330:26:37

especially in the public sector, are working and living in poverty.

0:26:370:26:42

The government needs to make sure that everybody is paid fairly

0:26:420:26:47

and then there wouldn't be a problem if MPs get a pay rise.

0:26:470:26:52

Nia, there was a specific question about your expenses.

0:26:520:26:56

You can respond to that as well.

0:26:560:26:59

I think people are in favour of you having more money

0:26:590:27:02

but not at the moment.

0:27:020:27:05

When we ask other people to freeze their wages,

0:27:050:27:09

it's impossible for us to accept something like this.

0:27:090:27:12

It's immoral.

0:27:120:27:15

What we need to do

0:27:150:27:17

is to work out what is needed for the job.

0:27:170:27:22

What's worrying is, not older people like me or the young people,

0:27:220:27:28

but people in the middle who have a family,

0:27:280:27:31

we have to reflect the fact that it's difficult

0:27:310:27:37

to be in two places and we need to make sure...

0:27:370:27:41

If you had a higher salary...

0:27:410:27:43

..we have a series of people who come from all backgrounds.

0:27:430:27:47

People from all income brackets.

0:27:470:27:50

Not just people who are very rich.

0:27:500:27:54

If you had a higher salary,

0:27:540:27:57

maybe you would not be accused of claiming too many expenses.

0:27:570:28:02

If it was higher, we wouldn't have had the expenses scandal.

0:28:020:28:06

It would be more private

0:28:060:28:09

and fewer public bodies would look at what you were doing

0:28:090:28:15

if the salaries were higher.

0:28:150:28:18

But I think the public have a right to know

0:28:180:28:23

that you are using the money well and you're not wasting money.

0:28:230:28:28

It is important that you are responsible.

0:28:280:28:32

Jonathan?

0:28:320:28:34

I have a similar view. We live at a time of financial cuts,

0:28:340:28:39

where wages have been frozen in the public sector or cut in real terms.

0:28:390:28:45

Because the public sector is suffering, it is impossible

0:28:450:28:49

for us as politicians, who are part of the public sector...

0:28:490:28:52

But this independent panel has decided that this salary

0:28:520:28:56

is not good enough.

0:28:560:28:58

We might get better Members.

0:28:580:29:00

They spent £70,000 on the consultation on this issue

0:29:000:29:06

and 80% of people said politicians did not deserve more pay.

0:29:060:29:11

I'm not sure how IPSA came up with this result.

0:29:110:29:14

The unfortunate thing is,

0:29:140:29:16

this will come in after the next Westminster election

0:29:160:29:20

and this will now be an electoral issue.

0:29:200:29:23

We should be talking about more important things.

0:29:230:29:27

-I think people have lost faith in IPSA.

-What about politicians?

0:29:270:29:32

They've lost faith with this issue, which wasn't decided by MPs.

0:29:320:29:36

We need to change the law so that the salaries of MPs

0:29:360:29:41

is linked to the average across the public sector.

0:29:410:29:45

I supported a motion to that end in Parliament this week.

0:29:450:29:50

Before I go to the break, you both think you earn a fair salary?

0:29:500:29:53

-I'm happy with what we get.

-Yes.

0:29:530:29:56

That's a clear answer.

0:29:560:29:57

Thank you for your contributions.

0:29:570:30:00

We will now take a short break. Join us again in two minutes.

0:30:000:30:03

Welcome back. We are in Llanelli for this week's programme.

0:30:190:30:23

Let's go to our third question.

0:30:230:30:26

Esther, what's your question?

0:30:260:30:30

A year has passed since the Census results showed

0:30:300:30:33

that the Welsh language has lost ground in Carmarthenshire.

0:30:330:30:37

Is enough being done to respond to the crisis?

0:30:370:30:40

A year has passed since the Census results showed

0:30:400:30:43

that the Welsh language has lost ground in Carmarthenshire.

0:30:430:30:46

Is enough being done to respond to the crisis?

0:30:460:30:50

A years since those unfavourable results.

0:30:500:30:52

Angharad, how would you answer?

0:30:520:30:55

Certainly not.

0:30:550:30:57

But worse than that, plenty is being done to make sure that

0:30:570:31:00

the Welsh language does not grow in Carmarthenshire.

0:31:000:31:03

In education, there are more English-medium primary schools

0:31:030:31:07

in the county now.

0:31:070:31:10

Some of the old bilingual primary schools

0:31:100:31:14

are now English-medium schools.

0:31:140:31:18

That'll make a huge difference.

0:31:180:31:21

We need to ensure that every child leaving primary school

0:31:210:31:25

in the county is fluent in the Welsh language.

0:31:250:31:29

But to implement that you need the support of parents.

0:31:290:31:32

Is that why this is happening? The support's not there.

0:31:320:31:36

I disagree.

0:31:360:31:38

It should be a policy within the county council and the Assembly.

0:31:380:31:43

-Compulsory?

-Compulsory.

0:31:430:31:45

Being bilingual is more beneficial than speaking one language.

0:31:450:31:50

We know that.

0:31:500:31:52

Then you have the housing policy.

0:31:520:31:55

If you look at schemes like Penybanc near Ammanford,

0:31:550:31:59

hundreds of new houses are being built but there are no new jobs.

0:31:590:32:03

That means more people will move into the area to buy homes

0:32:030:32:06

and because of the education system, if they have children,

0:32:060:32:10

they will send them to English-medium primary schools

0:32:100:32:14

rather than accepting that if they move to Ammanford

0:32:140:32:17

that the Welsh language is used in schools.

0:32:170:32:20

And, thirdly, there has been significant growth

0:32:200:32:24

in Welsh-medium education in the south-east.

0:32:240:32:27

In Cardiff, any child can have all kinds of

0:32:270:32:31

extracurricular opportunities through the medium of Welsh.

0:32:310:32:35

It could be tennis, football, rugby, swimming and so on.

0:32:350:32:40

But the facilities are there.

0:32:400:32:42

The facilities are here but the county council needs to make sure

0:32:420:32:46

the lessons are provided. Without a strategy it's not going to happen.

0:32:460:32:50

The teachers need resources too.

0:32:500:32:53

The budget for Welsh language initiatives has also been cut.

0:32:530:32:58

While you have a Labour and Independent council

0:32:580:33:02

without a strategy to ensure that the Welsh language grows

0:33:020:33:08

there is no hope of improving the situation.

0:33:080:33:13

In that case, the answer is to elect councillors.

0:33:130:33:17

-Owain?

-I'm disappointed with the figures.

0:33:170:33:21

I was surprised that so few children went through Welsh-medium education.

0:33:210:33:26

From what I've seen, I thought more children were getting opportunities

0:33:260:33:30

in Welsh-language schools.

0:33:300:33:32

They have closed schools in areas where the numbers were very low

0:33:320:33:36

and centralised them in bigger schools.

0:33:360:33:39

I must admit that the figures have disappointed me.

0:33:390:33:42

-I hope...

-What do you think needs to be done?

0:33:420:33:46

Do you agree that more force is needed?

0:33:460:33:49

I don't agree with forcing people to do anything

0:33:490:33:52

but I think people should be given the confidence

0:33:520:33:55

to be educated through the medium of Welsh.

0:33:550:33:58

We need the facilities to do business in Welsh.

0:33:580:34:01

And I think we all have a duty to use the Welsh language more often.

0:34:010:34:05

I talk to my colleagues in business in English rather than Welsh.

0:34:050:34:10

I don't use it as often as I should.

0:34:100:34:14

-Do you blame yourself?

-Yes. We have a duty.

0:34:140:34:17

But in the field of engineering, some of the technical terms

0:34:170:34:20

are not as well-known as the English words.

0:34:200:34:24

If three or four of us are talking and one doesn't speak Welsh,

0:34:240:34:29

it becomes a habit of speaking in English every time.

0:34:290:34:32

I think we need to make it easier for people to use the language.

0:34:320:34:36

I agree that we need more young people to use the language.

0:34:360:34:42

I remember children who were in school with me

0:34:420:34:46

who have left the country and lost their language

0:34:460:34:49

and when they come back they are disappointed they have lost it.

0:34:490:34:52

It's fashionable in some areas

0:34:520:34:55

for children with English-speaking parents.

0:34:550:34:58

If you look at the statistics, you can see that the number of

0:34:580:35:02

young people speaking Welsh is going up.

0:35:020:35:07

Welsh-language schools are very popular in this area.

0:35:070:35:12

They use the language when they are at school.

0:35:120:35:16

The problem is how to promote the language

0:35:160:35:19

after people leave school.

0:35:190:35:21

-What's important...

-It's seen as the language of the classroom.

0:35:210:35:25

What's important to young people? Things like texting.

0:35:250:35:29

Predictive text turns everything into English

0:35:290:35:32

and you give up trying to do it in Welsh.

0:35:320:35:35

-You need to...

-Turn off the predictive text.

0:35:350:35:38

We need a Welsh language predictive text.

0:35:380:35:42

We need more extracurricular activities...

0:35:420:35:45

What about Angharad's points about the county council...

0:35:450:35:48

..for children to take part in.

0:35:480:35:50

What about Angharad's points about the county council

0:35:500:35:53

not offering enough leadership?

0:35:530:35:56

The county council has helped a lot of Welsh-medium schools to grow

0:35:560:36:02

and that's important, but you can't force people.

0:36:020:36:06

The language is something very personal.

0:36:060:36:08

You need opportunities in different environments,

0:36:080:36:12

because you use different languages.

0:36:120:36:15

One in work and one at home, perhaps.

0:36:150:36:18

Two panellists reject your idea of making it compulsory, Angharad.

0:36:180:36:23

Promote, not force.

0:36:230:36:25

Another thing,

0:36:250:36:27

a lot of people who move into the county from areas like Swansea,

0:36:270:36:31

they do it in order to get more Welsh and to be in Welsh areas

0:36:310:36:36

and they use the Welsh schools.

0:36:360:36:39

They raise their children speaking Welsh.

0:36:390:36:41

But you're talking as if the language is growing in this area

0:36:410:36:45

when the statistics show that the language

0:36:450:36:49

is not growing in this area.

0:36:490:36:53

If we don't do something specific about it,

0:36:530:36:57

it will be a dead language in areas

0:36:570:37:02

where the large majority of people used to speak it.

0:37:020:37:05

In terms of force, it can work.

0:37:050:37:08

In Tinopolis, Welsh is the only language of the workplace.

0:37:080:37:12

-From time to time...

-Is it a set policy?

-Yes.

0:37:120:37:16

From time to time, someone comes in who can't speak Welsh,

0:37:160:37:20

they have lessons.

0:37:200:37:22

They are fluent almost immediately because they're surrounded by...

0:37:220:37:26

Thank you, Angharad. I see you're desperate to come in, Jonathan.

0:37:260:37:29

Let's be honest, the Census figures were disastrous in Carmarthenshire.

0:37:290:37:34

-It was a 7% drop...

-Nia's throwing a different light on it.

0:37:340:37:37

Let me talk. You've had your say, with respect.

0:37:370:37:41

A 7% drop in Carmarthenshire

0:37:410:37:44

and Welsh speakers are in the minority for the first time.

0:37:440:37:48

It's a psychological blow. In Ammanford, a 12% drop.

0:37:480:37:52

The first thing the Labour and Independent county council did

0:37:520:37:55

was to support a new housing estate in Penybanc,

0:37:550:37:58

one of the only Welsh-speaking industrial towns we have left,

0:37:580:38:03

300 houses - a hundred more than we saw in the development scheme.

0:38:030:38:08

More houses will be built in Carmarthenshire over the next decade

0:38:080:38:12

under Labour plans than in Cardiff and Swansea put together.

0:38:120:38:15

The Labour and Independent county councillors

0:38:150:38:19

refused to have any kind of language impact assessment

0:38:190:38:23

on the scheme, which will destroy Penybanc as a Welsh-speaking town,

0:38:230:38:27

and it's a disgrace.

0:38:270:38:31

APPLAUSE

0:38:310:38:33

You can answer that, Nia, before I go to the audience.

0:38:370:38:40

The two reasons why the statistics...

0:38:400:38:43

What about the housing development?

0:38:430:38:45

One minute.

0:38:450:38:47

I've said that the number of young people is growing.

0:38:470:38:50

We have to remember that the people who were born in the 1920s

0:38:500:38:54

are dying and people of my age, who were not given the chance

0:38:540:38:58

to go to a Welsh-medium school...

0:38:580:39:03

there are a lot of them.

0:39:030:39:05

The baby-boomers and so on.

0:39:050:39:08

The fact is, with the young people, things are improving.

0:39:080:39:11

With houses, it depends on the place.

0:39:110:39:14

I've opposed building a lot of houses

0:39:140:39:17

where it's inappropriate to do so.

0:39:170:39:19

I don't agree that the council has sat back and done nothing.

0:39:190:39:24

It has created several Welsh streams in schools.

0:39:240:39:29

A lot of schools are offering both languages.

0:39:290:39:33

It's not fair on the county.

0:39:330:39:36

We need leadership from the council.

0:39:360:39:40

A working party has been set up under Kevin Campbell.

0:39:400:39:43

I can't think of anyone better.

0:39:430:39:46

The county council needs to say it is adopting the recommendations.

0:39:460:39:50

If it doesn't, we know where Labour stand on the Welsh language.

0:39:500:39:54

Let's go to the audience.

0:39:540:39:56

Over here.

0:39:560:39:58

I would like to agree with Angharad Mair's point.

0:39:580:40:02

There's a feeling in Wales that we have to apologise

0:40:020:40:05

for using our language.

0:40:050:40:07

It should be a subject that you have to study in school.

0:40:070:40:10

It has educational benefits.

0:40:100:40:13

Everyone knows that being bilingual helps your development.

0:40:130:40:17

There is a lot of work to do with regard to training more teachers.

0:40:170:40:21

That is the problem.

0:40:210:40:22

There is not enough people available to do the work.

0:40:220:40:25

Having said that, I know a lot of teachers

0:40:250:40:29

who can speak Welsh, but they can't get any jobs in Welsh schools

0:40:290:40:33

and are working in English schools.

0:40:330:40:36

I know a lot of schools, for example in Llanelli, have Welsh departments.

0:40:360:40:42

A lot of work is being done in Treorchy in the valleys.

0:40:420:40:46

There are plenty of teachers - the language needs to be given priority.

0:40:460:40:50

Yes?

0:40:500:40:53

With young adults especially,

0:40:530:40:56

they have to take responsibility for the language.

0:40:560:41:00

A lot of young people enjoy going out

0:41:020:41:06

and I think they should have discounts in nightclubs

0:41:060:41:10

for speaking Welsh, to make it cool.

0:41:100:41:12

-Is it cool at the moment?

-It is cool to speak Welsh.

0:41:120:41:16

I think parents who live in Wales who speak English

0:41:160:41:22

and don't put their children into Welsh schools

0:41:220:41:26

do it because they can't do the homework with their children.

0:41:260:41:30

Parents like to work with their children on their homework

0:41:300:41:33

but there's no help at home for the children of English-speaking parents

0:41:330:41:37

who put their children in Welsh-medium schools.

0:41:370:41:41

How do we overcome that?

0:41:410:41:43

I don't know.

0:41:430:41:45

Yes?

0:41:450:41:46

I agree with Angharad.

0:41:460:41:48

Confidence is a huge thing with regard to speaking Welsh.

0:41:480:41:54

If you come from an English-speaking family and go to a Welsh school,

0:41:540:41:59

my parents are trying to learn Welsh but they have no confidence,

0:41:590:42:03

and they're very shy.

0:42:030:42:05

That's why confidence is so important.

0:42:050:42:08

Eifion Davies.

0:42:080:42:10

I attended a Christmas Carol concert in the town last Saturday.

0:42:100:42:14

There was a children's choir, a mixed choir,

0:42:140:42:17

a male voice choir and an orchestra.

0:42:170:42:19

We sang carols in English,

0:42:190:42:23

Latin and German, but not Welsh.

0:42:230:42:28

The person presenting the concert, at the end of the concert,

0:42:280:42:33

wished everyone a merry Christmas in English,

0:42:330:42:37

not a word of Welsh.

0:42:370:42:39

But is that the nature of Llanelli these days?

0:42:390:42:42

-I was disappointed.

-I have to hear from Esther.

0:42:420:42:46

I don't think forcing people to speak the language

0:42:460:42:48

is the right way forward.

0:42:480:42:50

Coming from a Welsh language school,

0:42:500:42:52

you don't want people to think of the language as a burden.

0:42:520:42:55

-You want them to enjoy speaking it.

-There we are.

0:42:550:42:59

What about you, shaking your head? Yes?

0:42:590:43:02

For me, we certainly need to promote the language,

0:43:020:43:06

not see it as a burden, like Esther said.

0:43:060:43:08

I treasure the fact that I can use Welsh

0:43:080:43:12

every day with my parents and friends.

0:43:120:43:14

We need to try and promote it among young people

0:43:140:43:18

and not blame the region's schools.

0:43:180:43:21

A hopeful and encouraging note upon which to close that discussion.

0:43:210:43:25

Thanks. I could have gone on all night but it's time for a break.

0:43:250:43:28

Join us again in Llanelli after the adverts.

0:43:280:43:30

Welcome back to Llanelli for the last Pawb a'i Farn before Christmas.

0:43:480:43:53

Time has flown

0:43:530:43:55

and we've only got time for one more question from Sian Evans.

0:43:550:43:58

Sian, what is your question?

0:43:580:44:01

Following the death of Nelson Mandela,

0:44:010:44:03

what can our politicians learn

0:44:030:44:05

from his willingness to forgive his enemies?

0:44:050:44:09

Thank you, Sian.

0:44:090:44:10

On the subject of the death we heard about last Thursday.

0:44:100:44:14

Following the death of Nelson Mandela,

0:44:140:44:16

what can our politicians learn

0:44:160:44:18

from his willingness to forgive his enemies?

0:44:180:44:22

I'll start with you, Nia, if I may.

0:44:230:44:25

I think one of the most important things we can learn

0:44:250:44:29

from Mandela is how to work with people who have been fierce enemies.

0:44:290:44:35

This is very important in the world today.

0:44:370:44:39

If you think about Northern Ireland, for instance,

0:44:390:44:42

people are working together but tensions remain.

0:44:420:44:45

It's very difficult to work with people who were enemies.

0:44:450:44:50

If you take the poorest countries in the world, war-torn countries

0:44:500:44:57

that are unstable because it isn't possible for them to develop

0:44:570:45:03

without cooperation, without reconciliation.

0:45:030:45:07

It's very important that we, in the world of politics,

0:45:080:45:14

do our very best to help.

0:45:140:45:19

For instance, in the Middle East it's very important to seek

0:45:190:45:23

-reconciliation and this is one of the biggest lessons.

-Angharad.

0:45:230:45:27

Well, I think there's a lot that can be done and I must say,

0:45:270:45:33

I've never heard so many insincere comments from certain politicians

0:45:330:45:37

-than I have over the past week.

-Praising him, you mean?

0:45:370:45:40

One of Mandela's most famous quotes was,

0:45:400:45:44

"Social equality is the only basis of human happiness."

0:45:440:45:48

It is easy for us to agree with that over here

0:45:480:45:51

when we consider a far-away country like South Africa.

0:45:510:45:56

I almost choked when I heard Russell Goodway,

0:45:560:45:58

former leader of Cardiff Council, on television last week,

0:45:580:46:01

saying that Nelson Mandela had told him how much of an honour it

0:46:010:46:03

was for him, Mandela, to meet Russell Goodway.

0:46:030:46:07

Nobody has done more to ensure that social equality doesn't exist

0:46:070:46:10

for Welsh speaking people in the capital city!

0:46:100:46:12

He was the one to end the Welsh festival Tafwyl

0:46:120:46:14

in the capital this year.

0:46:140:46:16

Thanks to Leighton Andrews for stepping in, there.

0:46:160:46:19

We're talking about a totally different situation, there.

0:46:190:46:22

We're talking about real conflict in South Africa.

0:46:220:46:26

He has made sure that Welsh education in the capital city

0:46:260:46:29

is suffering, refusing to open a new school in the Grangetown area,

0:46:290:46:34

opening an English school

0:46:340:46:36

while Welsh pupils are pushed into one school

0:46:360:46:39

-instead of receiving the proper facilities.

-Thanks.

0:46:390:46:42

It's fine to say that but we need to apply Nelson Mandela's words

0:46:420:46:45

-to our local context as well as worldwide.

-Owain Davies.

0:46:450:46:49

I think Nelson Mandela has taught us all an important lesson,

0:46:490:46:53

especially the young people in the audience tonight.

0:46:530:46:56

For the man to say, "let bygones be bygones"

0:46:560:46:59

after all he went through, he sets an exceptional example.

0:46:590:47:04

I think politicians have to consider that things move on in the world

0:47:040:47:07

and they must learn to move with them.

0:47:070:47:10

I think that's the greatest lesson.

0:47:100:47:13

It doesn't matter what their policies were yesterday,

0:47:130:47:16

they need to re-evaluate them today to secure a bright future.

0:47:160:47:19

I think that's the most valuable lesson I've learned in business,

0:47:190:47:23

because it's a dog-eat-dog world, as they say in English.

0:47:230:47:26

Sometimes you've got to think back and think,

0:47:260:47:28

"Do I have the right to have this strong opinion of somebody?

0:47:280:47:32

Maybe I should hold back."

0:47:320:47:34

-Does that mean you want Nia and Jonathan to work together more?

-Yes.

0:47:340:47:39

Definitely. I think that's very important.

0:47:390:47:41

They need to weigh up their strengths

0:47:410:47:44

and learn from their weaknesses. That's what Nelson...

0:47:440:47:48

But isn't debate at the heart of politics?

0:47:480:47:52

But sometimes you need to move on with a dose of common sense.

0:47:520:47:55

-They're not good at doing that.

-We need better opposition in Wales.

0:47:550:47:59

Let's hear from Jonathan.

0:47:590:48:01

The greatest thing about Mandela, in my opinion,

0:48:010:48:04

was his political values.

0:48:040:48:06

I think he was an uncompromising politician.

0:48:060:48:10

he was jailed and he had an opportunity to negotiate with

0:48:100:48:13

the apartheid government but he wasn't prepared to until he and his

0:48:130:48:18

colleagues were freed, which meant he spent much longer in prison.

0:48:180:48:21

He wouldn't compromise and give up on his beliefs.

0:48:210:48:23

I remember, for instance,

0:48:230:48:25

arranging buses to London to protest against the Iraq war

0:48:250:48:28

and Mandela had long stepped down as South African president.

0:48:280:48:32

He was speaking out against Tony Blair

0:48:320:48:35

and George Bush for what they intended to do.

0:48:350:48:37

Can I just end with this?

0:48:370:48:40

Jose Mourinho rarely talks sense but he did this week.

0:48:400:48:43

He said that he doesn't feel worthy to comment on Mandela's greatness.

0:48:430:48:48

I fully support what Angharad said about some of the things

0:48:480:48:52

we've seen this week from some politicians.

0:48:520:48:54

Owain is asking for you to cooperate with not only Nia

0:48:540:48:58

but the Conservatives.

0:48:580:49:00

Why not cooperate with the Conservatives in Cardiff Bay?

0:49:000:49:03

From where I'm sitting, Labour and the Conservatives are just as bad as

0:49:030:49:06

each other and I'll work with anyone who'll move the country forward.

0:49:060:49:09

So Mandela's legacy isn't alive and well as far as you're concerned.

0:49:090:49:13

Let's have a sentence from Sian. A sentence.

0:49:130:49:16

Sometimes... I think it takes more of a man

0:49:160:49:18

to extend a hand instead of reaching for a gun.

0:49:180:49:21

Wonderful, Sian. Thank you very much.

0:49:210:49:24

APPLAUSE

0:49:240:49:26

Wonderful. Thank you to our audience.

0:49:260:49:29

And thanks to the panel. That's all from Llanelli.

0:49:290:49:32

We'll be back in the New Year but Merry Christmas to you all. Goodbye.

0:49:320:49:36

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