Browse content similar to 16/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On our panel tonight, the
clinical psychologist, Dr Mair Edwards. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
The Conservative MP for Aberconwy, Guto Bebb. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
The parliamentary leader of Plaid Cymru, Elfyn Llwyd. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
And one of the Assembly's
Liberal Democrats, Aled Roberts. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:40 | |
Please welcome them. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:42 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
Good evening and welcome
to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:59 | |
We are in Bethesda for our first discussion of 2014 | 0:00:59 | 0:01:04 | |
and Plas Ffrancon Leisure Centre. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
Our audience is from the Ogwen Valley. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:11 | |
But at the beginning of a new year, how familiar will the topics of discussion be? | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
We will find out during the next hour. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:18 | |
We have received many
questions and we have selected a handful | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
and we'll go straight to the first one. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
The usual addresses are at
the bottom of the screen and we will be | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
in Pontardawe next Thursday
evening and you are welcome to join us. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:32 | |
But tonight, in Bethesda, our
first question comes from Karen Brown. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
Karen, what is your question? | 0:01:36 | 0:01:37 | |
George Osborne claims the statistics are starting to suggest that the economy is strengthening. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:42 | |
But when will we see signs of that in areas like the Ogwen Valley? | 0:01:42 | 0:01:46 | |
Thank you, Karen,
for the first question of the night. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:48 | |
George Osborne claims the
statistics are starting to
suggest that the economy is strengthening. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:53 | |
But when will we see signs of
that in areas like the Ogwen Valley? | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
Can I come to you, Elfyn
Llwyd, for the first answer of the night? | 0:01:57 | 0:02:01 | |
Yes, of course, Dewi. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:03 | |
It's true to say that the economy in London | 0:02:04 | 0:02:08 | |
and the south-east of England is strengthening. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
There is no doubt about that. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
But the same cannot be said outside those areas. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
It just underlines that the
economic policies of governments | 0:02:18 | 0:02:23 | |
have been concentrating on the city and that area. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:27 | |
It's obvious that the economy is getting better | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
but there is not much
happening in rural areas, that's for sure. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
What we need to do, I think, is to ensure that we now realise | 0:02:35 | 0:02:40 | |
that smaller and
medium-sized companies are
crucial to the Welsh economy. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
We in the cities and in rural areas have to ensure | 0:02:45 | 0:02:50 | |
an aid package for those companies | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
because that is where 90% of wages are paid in Wales. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:58 | |
So it's very important we do that. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
Things like ensuring there is a Welsh bank | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
to lend money to them. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:06 | |
The banks are still letting them down. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
We have to ensure that business tax is cut. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
One of the interesting things is, and I'm sure I speak for all politicians, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
is that when you talk to businesses, | 0:03:16 | 0:03:18 | |
they soon tell you that the one thing killing business | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
is the business tax and they don't get anything back for it. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:26 | |
So we have to look at that to ensure that sector grows. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
We also have to think about
what's happening in rural areas. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
We know there are problems in the world of agriculture | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
and we know that tourism needs a boost. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
There are many other things we could be doing. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
But on the whole, you accept that things are strengthening? | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
In some areas. All right. Guto
Bebb? | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
I'm glad that Elfyn agrees
that the economy is improving. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
I would accept that
description. It is improving slowly. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
But if you compare the way
the British economy is developing | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
with France and Germany at the moment, | 0:03:58 | 0:04:00 | |
the development in Britain is very encouraging. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
Where I would disagree with
Elfyn is his claim that we are only | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
seeing economic growth in London and the south-east. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
I was in a meeting in Parliament last week with John Cridland from the CBI | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
and the CBI's internal figures show that the largest growth | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
is happening in the north-east of England and the Midlands. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
Because they are starting from a lower point. Maybe. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
But Wales is also starting from a low point, don't forget. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
The Cheshire chamber of
commerce has announced that there | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
is more confidence among businesses there, | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
and Cheshire is just over the
border, and they said there is more | 0:04:31 | 0:04:34 | |
confidence among
businesses there than there has been for a decade. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
So the growth is not only in London and the south-east. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
The growth can be seen across many parts of Britain. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
What about Northwest Wales? I was going to refer to
this constituency. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
In the Arfon constituency
during the five years before the last | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
general election,
unemployment increased by 44%. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:53 | |
Since 2010, unemployment has dropped. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
In this constituency during the last year unemployment has dropped by 16%. | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
That means 250 people in
this constituency have found jobs. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
Of course, we are starting from a very low level in Wales | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
and there are specific reasons for that. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:07 | |
But I think we have to be very careful not to play down what we have to offer Wales. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:12 | |
Who is doing that? Are you
accusing anybody of doing that? | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
There is a tendency to complain. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
For example, the economy is succeeding in England, but not here in Wales. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
If the message is always negative... But if that's true? It's not. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
I don't think it is. That's the truth. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:26 | |
If you look at the
unemployment figures, unemployment is dropping. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
In my constituency,
unemployment is lower than it
was in 2010 when I was elected. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
That is a movement in the right direction. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
In Llandudno, for example,
during the first three months of this year | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
there will be an investment of
£7.5 million in the private sector. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
There are definite signs. Of
course, there is still a lot to do. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
As Elfyn said, business tax. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
The Chancellor of the
Exchequer is giving small
businesses in England a reduction. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:53 | |
Will the Assembly do the same thing in Wales? That is what I want to know. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
Aled Roberts? | 0:05:57 | 0:05:58 | |
It is the Welsh Government that would do it in Wales, not the Assembly. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:01 | |
But I think there is a fair point here. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
There has been a growth in the economy. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
More than one million jobs have been created across Britain. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:08 | |
But obviously, the challenge is bigger in some areas than others. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:12 | |
I think there is a problem in some areas like the Ogwen Valley | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
and the area where I was born, where the old traditional
industries have | 0:06:16 | 0:06:20 | |
disappeared and to some extent no jobs have replaced them for 20 years. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:26 | |
Do you see any hope for those areas then? | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
I think Elfyn made a fair point. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:31 | |
What we have to do in Wales, I think the days when | 0:06:31 | 0:06:36 | |
a company came in from Japan and created 300 or 400 jobs have gone. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:42 | |
What we have to do is give small businesses in Wales more support | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
so they can grow and to make
sure that the public sector in
areas | 0:06:46 | 0:06:50 | |
like Gwynedd takes the opportunities to support local businesses. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:55 | |
Your party has been part of
the coalition Government
during the last three and a half years. | 0:06:55 | 0:07:01 | |
Was it worth adopting George Osborne's painful plans in order to get to this point? | 0:07:01 | 0:07:07 | |
It would have been very easy for us to have walked away | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
and accept no responsibility
three and half years ago. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
That responsibility was taken by us. Was it worth it? | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
We agreed on a programme. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:21 | |
What we have to do is compare Britain's performance | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
at the moment with countries like France who did things another way. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:31 | |
Can I add one other point? | 0:07:31 | 0:07:33 | |
There is an extra challenge
as well and that is salary levels. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
Unfortunately, in my
constituency and in Guto's constituency, | 0:07:37 | 0:07:41 | |
salaries are much too low. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:44 | |
It is a challenge for us
to ensure not only that we create | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
a growth in the economy but
that we create jobs which are worth having. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
Mr Osborne has said today
that he is hoping to see the
minimum wage increase significantly. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
That's fine. | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
But I would like to see jobs
where young people are encouraged | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
to stay at home and if they
want to buy houses then they
can with the salaries they receive. | 0:08:02 | 0:08:08 | |
Salaries in North Wales and Wales in general are way behind and they are too low. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:13 | |
Mair Edwards? | 0:08:13 | 0:08:15 | |
I think when we look at the differences between this area and London for example, | 0:08:15 | 0:08:19 | |
I think there is a feeling in this area | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
that this growth hasn't arrived quite yet. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:28 | |
When you look at the quality of the jobs available, | 0:08:28 | 0:08:32 | |
maybe there are more people in work but when I assess
people and go | 0:08:32 | 0:08:37 | |
around and talk to people who come and see me, | 0:08:37 | 0:08:41 | |
they are still saving and they are still finding it difficult. | 0:08:41 | 0:08:45 | |
When you then look at the statistics with regards to
optimism, | 0:08:45 | 0:08:49 | |
what you see is that that optimism usually looks at middle-class people | 0:08:49 | 0:08:55 | |
who are in professional jobs or business people | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
who are in business with other businesses. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
But the more local businesses | 0:09:02 | 0:09:05 | |
and the small businesses that
depend on our communities
find it very | 0:09:05 | 0:09:09 | |
difficult to spend the money because they don't get what they need. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
I think that's the problem. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
We in Northwest Wales, at the moment, have not seen this growth | 0:09:17 | 0:09:22 | |
which is so obvious if you go to London at the moment. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
You are talking about these
low wages in North Wales but they are | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
not too low for many people
coming from Eastern Europe, are they? | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
That is a reasonable point. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:34 | |
We say that wages are low and yet we have many jobs | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
which are filled by people
who come here from somewhere else. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
So in that respect
I welcome the fact we are
seriously looking at changing the minimum wage | 0:09:40 | 0:09:45 | |
because the minimum wage
has been held back during the last few years. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
I understand why but it puts small businesses in a difficult | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
situation and maybe
they can't afford to pay much more. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
I think we do need to look at the possibility of increasing the minimum wage | 0:09:54 | 0:09:58 | |
at a time when there is growth in the economy. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
But I think we need to look at things such as skills too. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
You look at two counties
in North Wales, Flint and Wrexham, | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
where the situation is much
stronger than in the north west. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:09 | |
And yet, Denbighshire,
Conwy, Anglesey and Gwynedd | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
are the areas that have
received hundreds of millions
from Europe. What have we done with that? | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
We're talking about
supporting small businesses,
we've had 15 years of European funding. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
So you say it has been wasted? | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
We've had 15 years to invest in skills, we haven't done it. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
The biggest investor in skills in North Wales is Airbus | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
and that has support from the Welsh Government, | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
but it is a private sector
company that invests in top quality | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
skills, creating quality jobs. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
And we should make more of the skills | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
at Bangor University, Glyndwr and Aberystwyth. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:47 | |
I will return to the panel shortly. Audience? | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
How will we attract people to
invest in the businesses you mention? | 0:10:50 | 0:10:58 | |
There is a site in Bryncegin in Llandegau. | 0:10:58 | 0:11:04 | |
A huge some of money was invested there. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
I think £9.5 million was set aside for that site | 0:11:08 | 0:11:14 | |
and they were suppose to
employ 1,600. That goes back to 2005. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:20 | |
Nothing has been done there
and £1 million has already been spent, | 0:11:20 | 0:11:26 | |
has already been wasted, on that site. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
And there are no buildings there. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
I'd suggest it coincided with the worst possible time, | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
as far as the economy. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:36 | |
You can answer that shortly. Sion Jones? Thank you. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
This question is for Guto and
Aled. Are millionaires now better off? | 0:11:39 | 0:11:44 | |
That's your question. You're welcome to answer that. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
They are worse off now than
they were for 13 years under Labour. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
Throughout that time,
they paid 40% on their earnings. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
There were millionaires under
the last Labour government that | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
could hide their money from income tax. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
Instead of paying income tax,
they paid on the rise in interest. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
They paid 18% tax, while
people who cleaned offices paid 22%. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
the first thing this
Government did was scrap that loophole, a loophole | 0:12:07 | 0:12:11 | |
created by Peter Mandelson
who said he was proud of the fact that | 0:12:11 | 0:12:16 | |
people were filthy rich in London. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:18 | |
That's what Labour did, remember that. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
Sion is a Labour councillor. You're welcome to respond. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:24 | |
It looks like the Tory
Government in London are working for millionaires. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:30 | |
The working people are taxed most and are finding it tough. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
When the Conservative Lib Dem Coalition Government | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
came into existence, people paid tax after £6,500. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
The coalition invested in income tax | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
and reduced taxes for the
poorest in society and from April, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
people can earn £10,000
without paying a penny in income tax. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:53 | |
Married couples, £20,000
without paying a penny in income tax. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
Labour cut taxes for the richest in London. | 0:12:57 | 0:13:01 | |
I disagree, but there we are. You're welcome to do so. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
Aled Roberts, you're part of this government too. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
Tens of thousands of people
in Wales will not pay a penny in tax | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
next year because of London policies. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:15 | |
The Labour Party is talking
about banking bonuses this week. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
The bonuses were bigger during their time, | 0:13:19 | 0:13:23 | |
so what are they complaining about? | 0:13:23 | 0:13:25 | |
What about the living wage? | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
I think it is a difficult question in the context of rural Wales | 0:13:29 | 0:13:34 | |
because it is £7.85 and I think George Osborne's plans to | 0:13:34 | 0:13:38 | |
move to £7 is correct, but I would find it hard to tell small | 0:13:38 | 0:13:43 | |
businesses they have to pay
£7.85 in the same way as the public sector. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
It's jobs that count. People have to work. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
I agree with increasing the minimum | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
but pushing it to a fee that the
public sector can afford is too far. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:56 | |
More voices from the audience. What about you? | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
I'm worried about young
people, those coming out of school, | 0:14:00 | 0:14:06 | |
there's nothing to offer them,
not everyone can go to university. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
These young people are disheartened | 0:14:10 | 0:14:14 | |
and I've heard that the stats for 2011 say there is | 0:14:14 | 0:14:19 | |
an increase in young
people 15-34 committing suicide. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:25 | |
I'm sure in this area there
are a number of young people that | 0:14:25 | 0:14:31 | |
have been referred for the same thing. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
There we are. What about you, with your hand up? | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
I'm surprised to see Guto
Bebb complaining about Labour | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
helping the rich. That's what they did. | 0:14:41 | 0:14:47 | |
You have cut income tax, you
can say that Labour had a lower | 0:14:47 | 0:14:55 | |
income tax, that doesn't make
cutting income tax a good thing. | 0:14:55 | 0:15:01 | |
Also,
you say that you help the poor. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:05 | |
As well as increasing the
amount people have to earn to pay | 0:15:05 | 0:15:10 | |
income tax,
you have been increasing VAT, | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
that has hit people, it hits the poor most of all. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
And the Lib Dems too, Clegg
said that the Conservatives would | 0:15:18 | 0:15:24 | |
increase VAT, so he wanted to stop the Conservatives. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | |
Instead, you joined them
and helped them increase taxes. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:34 | |
Thank you. Gwynedd Watkin in the back row. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:38 | |
The area certainly needs investment. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
Maybe we can discuss agriculture later on. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
But that will have a greater effect. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
The schemes have helped, but it is not enough. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:56 | |
Paul Rawlinson? Let me get the microphone to you. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
One way to develop the local
economy is for the public sector to | 0:16:02 | 0:16:06 | |
spend more money with local business. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
What plans do the parties have to promote that to | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
ensure there is more money
spent in this area, rather than going | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
to large companies from
elsewhere? Thank you, Paul. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:22 | |
Deri Thomas in the back row. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
I feel that small companies
are important, as has been mentioned. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
This is such a nice area, the entertainment | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
and tourism industries, we
have the Zipwire close by too, that is | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
an example, inspiring people, but in my field, | 0:16:36 | 0:16:40 | |
hearing that Anglesey sea salt, Halen Mon, has been | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
given special status, I hope
that the university can contribute | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
to industries that build on that. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
An example in my field is
using agricultural land to produce | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
new crops, something pioneering, | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
using the latest
technology from the university... | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
One project I have is growing
crops for use in Alzheime'rs drugs. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:04 | |
Some people may have heard of that. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
There are plenty of examples
and examples such as Halen Mon | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
and the shitake mushrooms being grown in Beddgelert, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:13 | |
inspires small businesses in the agriculture industry, | 0:17:13 | 0:17:18 | |
but it is brand new agriculture, in one way. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:24 | |
I want to bring this debate to
a close. But you can
contribute. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
James Gibbon, Bangor University. Just two things. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
One about the waste of European money. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
There is a project
running in Bangor that employs | 0:17:34 | 0:17:37 | |
something like 70% of
people... And European money has been vital. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:42 | |
European money is helping to fund it. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
And one more thing, there is
a scheme supporting businesses, | 0:17:46 | 0:17:51 | |
helping them to actually work with larger companies. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
I do not consider that to be a waste of money. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:59 | |
Some quick comments. Mair? | 0:17:59 | 0:18:03 | |
I agree that we need to go | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
after small businesses and help them develop. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
And of course, the university has an important role to play, | 0:18:10 | 0:18:14 | |
but I do think that from day today, | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
a large number of our young people | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
and society find it very
difficult. A sentence each. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
Well, no-one is denying that people are finding it tough. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
But when you inherit an
economy with £160 billion debt with the | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
banks failing, it's no surprise
that it takes time to solve that problem. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
But we are heading in the right direction. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
We mentioned the university, we need more cooperation, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
but also, the Welsh
Government needs to be thinking about targeting | 0:18:42 | 0:18:46 | |
underprivileged areas
and ensuring that there is public | 0:18:46 | 0:18:50 | |
investment there ahead of
other areas. Aled Roberts. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
I spent the morning looking at
the spending of European money in Wales | 0:18:53 | 0:18:58 | |
and there is a problem as
regards some schemes and sustainability. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
The Welsh Government does
not have a good record in some fields. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
There we are. We have discussed that subject for 15
minutes. Thank you. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:11 | |
Let's move on to the next question, it comes from Gruff Morris. What is your question? | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
There are plans to build a new estate of up | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
to 70 houses in Bethesda. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:20 | |
Does the panel agree that the development should be | 0:19:20 | 0:19:26 | |
stopped from going ahead? | 0:19:26 | 0:19:29 | |
Gruff talking about the development of a new
housing estate, | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
70 houses, in Bethesda. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
Does the panel agree that the development should be | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
stopped from going ahead? That is a hot topic in many areas. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
Mair, I will start with you this time. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
I think it is difficult at the moment. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:46 | |
We know we have a poor housing stock in areas, | 0:19:46 | 0:19:49 | |
especially in underprivilged area. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
We need to improve the housing stock. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
We also know we need to develop new, | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
affordable housing for people to raise families, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
to make sure communities remain alive, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:08 | |
that schools have enough
pupils so they can continue to thrive. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:13 | |
But we can't drown an area | 0:20:13 | 0:20:19 | |
with so many homes that the community | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
can't cope with the number of
people moving in at the same time. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
70 houses doesn't sound
likely of doing that. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:31 | |
Yes, in an area such as this one, I think it will. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
I think the statistics say | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
84 houses were built between | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
2002 and 2012. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
That is, it is a big
number to come at the same time. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:47 | |
It isn't just 70 houses. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:49 | |
I noticed there were other plans. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:51 | |
24 homnes are to be built in another area in Bethesda. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
Then there are six other houses in another area. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
When you look at the areas which have been earmarked | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
for development, some of those areas are huge. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
When you think look at the
developments taking place in Bangor | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
you then realise there's going
to be a flood of housing at the same time. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
What worries me is that flood will be too much to take | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
at the same time. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
Over a period of time, I'd think
there was room for development. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
But I think it has to be at a rate where the community, | 0:21:27 | 0:21:32 | |
especially a Welsh community, | 0:21:32 | 0:21:34 | |
can accept it and change the language. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
If someone moves in from the
outside, they can change language | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
to speak Welsh. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
Gruff, what worries you? | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
Well, the big problem is the
effect it will have on the Welsh language | 0:21:46 | 0:21:50 | |
in the area. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
I agree totally with what Mrs Edwards has said. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
If it was done slowly, a drip feed, | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
it would be easier for the area to cope with it. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:04 | |
There is, you are quite right, | 0:22:04 | 0:22:05 | |
there is the threat of other developments | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
in the area too. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
But how... But this is a
planning application. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
It hasn't been passed yet. How string is the feeling agianst it? | 0:22:13 | 0:22:17 | |
A high number had come to Neuadd Ogwen | 0:22:17 | 0:22:23 | |
last year, when they were discussing this. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:28 | |
There was a good local response. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
Dafydd Meurig in the back row. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
Let's get the microphone there. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
I won't give my opinion on this case | 0:22:37 | 0:22:39 | |
because I am on the
Gwynedd planning committee, but generally | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
it is a difficult problem what to do with housing. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:47 | |
You need houses for local
people but you need houses of the right type. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
Affordable housing for local people. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:54 | |
The front row. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
It is a hot topic in Bethesda
but it's an even bigger one on Bangor. | 0:22:57 | 0:23:01 | |
610 houses are to be built between two sites. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:05 | |
That will effect the structure of the area generally | 0:23:05 | 0:23:09 | |
and it will also transform the community totally. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:15 | |
Will 70 houses in Bethesda do that? | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
Bethesda is a lot smaller than Penrhosgarnedd in Bangor. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:23 | |
True. In the back row. | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
There's 700 house but where are the jobs? | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
There aren't any. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
Go down Bethesdsa main
street and see the shops that are closed. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
There are lots of houses for
sale and they want to build more. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:38 | |
The only thing they've done,
is have the poeple who are kicked out | 0:23:38 | 0:23:42 | |
of the big towns and dumped them here. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:44 | |
Don't you think the 70 houses will be suitable for local people | 0:23:44 | 0:23:49 | |
or those looking for a new house? | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
Fine but how will they pay for it without a job? | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
Right, let's go to the panel. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:57 | |
Guto Bebb. | 0:23:57 | 0:23:58 | |
I can't give an opinion on 70 houses in Bethesda. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
I don't know the area well enough. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
But I think this is something
we're going to see across North Wales | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
for the next 20 years. | 0:24:07 | 0:24:08 | |
There's been huge pressures on local authorities... | 0:24:08 | 0:24:12 | |
I'm not going to blame local authorities, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:15 | |
but they're under pressure
in North Wales, and across Wales, | 0:24:15 | 0:24:19 | |
to acept the Assembly's policy of building more homes. | 0:24:19 | 0:24:22 | |
Councils, be they in
Gwynedd, Conwy, have agreed to plans | 0:24:22 | 0:24:27 | |
to build thousands of homes. In Conwy... | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
Are they needed? | 0:24:30 | 0:24:31 | |
In Conwy, we're talking about 6,300 houese. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
That means about 20,000 of the population. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
The population of Conwy at the moment is 110,000. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:39 | |
We're talking about a population growth of 20%. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:42 | |
We had the question asking
where the economic growth was coming from, | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
it's right to ask where we can find 20,000 people, | 0:24:45 | 0:24:51 | |
what's the nature of the jobs offered to these people? | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
Conwy Council, who have
just accepted these 6,300 houses, | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
are also closing rural schools. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:02 | |
So they're not expecting a
natural growth in the population. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
I'm afraid this is a structure forced on local councils | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
right across NOrth Wales by the Assembly. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
Unfortunately, there are examples of people | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
who say they're against this type of thing, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:17 | |
but who have voted in favour of it. | 0:25:17 | 0:25:19 | |
I think I'm right to say, Aled can correct me, | 0:25:19 | 0:25:23 | |
there has been a strong campaign in Wrexham. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:25 | |
Wrexham Council is
continuing to reject the Assembly's pressing. | 0:25:25 | 0:25:28 | |
The same backbone wasn't seen by Conwy Council, | 0:25:28 | 0:25:33 | |
the only party to reject it in
Conwy was the Conservatives. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
Aled Roberts. That's true.
I was the leader of Wrexham. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
The starting point is the Welsh Government. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
The Welsh Govenrment tells
every Welsh council how many homes | 0:25:43 | 0:25:46 | |
that have to be built under
the local plan within ten years. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
In Wrexham, the council was
keen to have about 6,000 houses. | 0:25:50 | 0:25:55 | |
The Welsh Governmet
wanted between 10,000 and 12,000. | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
Once the local plan is
accepted by the county council | 0:25:59 | 0:26:04 | |
after that it's just a matter of
choosing areas within the county | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
for houses. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
If the area of Bethesda has been chosen | 0:26:10 | 0:26:13 | |
for housing developments, it's
difficult for any planning committee | 0:26:13 | 0:26:18 | |
to reject the plan. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
But I thought housing stock was old in an area like Bethesda. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
New homes are needed and this is the way to do that. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:27 | |
No. What they are doing is
aying how many new houses need to be built. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:32 | |
That's the problem. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
Another Welsh Government
failing is they have changed their opinion | 0:26:34 | 0:26:38 | |
on language assessments. | 0:26:38 | 0:26:39 | |
They have done nothing for two years until TAN 20. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:43 | |
What they have said is, in the first instance they were eager | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
to have language
assessments within the local plan. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
During the past year, after the minister was changed, | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
they have said they aren't going after that, | 0:26:53 | 0:26:55 | |
they want language
assesments for individual applications. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
Elfyn Llwyd. | 0:26:58 | 0:26:59 | |
The first thing I'd say, years
ago when I was a young solicitor, | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
and that is years ago, | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
I worked a lot on planning law. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
The two bog words were always local need. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
Shouldn't you start with that? | 0:27:11 | 0:27:13 | |
At the end of the day, planning rules | 0:27:13 | 0:27:16 | |
are needed to be implemented locally. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
That's their purpose. | 0:27:19 | 0:27:21 | |
I don't know what planet these people in Cardiff are living on. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
They tell people of this area they have to take 70, like that. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
If the local need isn't there, you can't force it on anyone. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:33 | |
Mair is right. Maybe the housing stock is old | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
but some of us have been
beating the drum on this for years. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:46 | |
If there isn't VAT on stuff that builds new homes | 0:27:46 | 0:27:50 | |
you shouldn't put VAT on maintaining old houses. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
There are plenty within the reach of young people | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
to renovate them to make proper homes. | 0:27:57 | 0:27:59 | |
We should offer them grants to do that. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
It isn't beyond people to think of things like that. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
It's easy to say, that field's going, let's build 70. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
That's raw and stupid. | 0:28:09 | 0:28:12 | |
It doesn't match up with local need, | 0:28:12 | 0:28:14 | |
and I think it should be opposed. | 0:28:14 | 0:28:16 | |
OK, fine. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:17 | |
Rhiannon Evans. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
When I sat on Bethesda
Community Council many years ago, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
this county was earmarked for homes. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
Well, we fought against expensive houses | 0:28:30 | 0:28:35 | |
at Llawr y Nant. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:37 | |
We didn't receive much local support. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
There was only a small group. | 0:28:40 | 0:28:43 | |
We did managed to overturn
the plans to build huge houses, | 0:28:43 | 0:28:47 | |
we halved it. We need houses for rent in Bethesda | 0:28:47 | 0:28:50 | |
and bungalows please for the elderly. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
You can close on that, Guto Bebb. | 0:28:54 | 0:28:56 | |
I agree with everything Elfyn
said. That's new! | 0:28:56 | 0:28:59 | |
But I would point out one thing. I must have made a
mistake! | 0:28:59 | 0:29:03 | |
But I would point out one
thing which isn't completely honest. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:07 | |
I think it's too late. | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
The truth is, Gwynedd's
leaders have accepted these plans. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:13 | |
Once the leadership has accepted these plans | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
and Plaid were the leaders at
the time, what will happen now? | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
If Wrexham has enough
backbone to say no, why didn't that happen? | 0:29:20 | 0:29:24 | |
Conwy are lead by Plaid
Cymru, Gwynedd are lead by Plaid Cymru, | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
but I wonder whether the fact
Plaid Cymru was part of the coalition | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
in Cardiff before 2011
influenced the decision making? | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
I don't want to turn this into a Punch and Judy show. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
Come on! | 0:29:36 | 0:29:38 | |
I was looking forward to that! You probably were! | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
The plain truth of it is there is a review in Gwynedd | 0:29:41 | 0:29:45 | |
to see where the language comes into planning... | 0:29:45 | 0:29:49 | |
But the development has been approved. | 0:29:49 | 0:29:52 | |
Yes. But if the review comes into something else | 0:29:52 | 0:29:54 | |
it will have to be reconsidered. | 0:29:54 | 0:29:57 | |
I just don't see how people in Cardiff, all respect to them, | 0:29:57 | 0:30:01 | |
knows better than the people of Bethesda about local need. | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
I don't understand it and I don't accept it. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:06 | |
I don't disagree with that. | 0:30:07 | 0:30:08 | |
Why are representatives of
Bethesda, who are Plaid Cymru members, | 0:30:08 | 0:30:12 | |
haven't stood up to the
Assembly and that's not what happened. | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
They bowed down to what Cardiff called for. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
There is a council in North
Wales that's gone the opposite way. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:22 | |
This review on the language and so forth, | 0:30:22 | 0:30:24 | |
will change things we should. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:27 | |
The words spilt and milk come into it. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:30 | |
Maybe indeed but we'll see what comes of it. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:32 | |
I knew you wouldn't agree for long! | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
It's time for a break. Join us in two minutes. | 0:30:36 | 0:30:40 | |
Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Bethesda. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:02 | |
Let's have out third question asked by Sion Jones. | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
We've heard from you before. What's your question? | 0:31:05 | 0:31:08 | |
It seems that the number of
local authorities in Wales will be cut. | 0:31:08 | 0:31:13 | |
How will that effect services in Wales? | 0:31:13 | 0:31:16 | |
There we go, Sion says there will be fewer councils in Wales, | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
so they say, but will that raise the standards of services? | 0:31:19 | 0:31:25 | |
Aled Roberts, as the former leader of Wrexham Council. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:28 | |
I think there is a theory that more equals better. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:34 | |
That's not true. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:36 | |
There are smaller councils
which provide excellent services. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:39 | |
There are large councils which provide poor services. | 0:31:39 | 0:31:43 | |
There's a hang-up in Wales
about restructuring all the time. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:49 | |
If we look at the Health Service in North Wales | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
we all knwo that big, or size, | 0:31:52 | 0:31:56 | |
doesn'tequate to improving services. | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
We have to be very careful. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
Are you against it? | 0:32:02 | 0:32:04 | |
It sounds like it. | 0:32:05 | 0:32:07 | |
I don't think that restructuring, in one thing, | 0:32:07 | 0:32:12 | |
will mean things will improve. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:14 | |
I think there's a problem with people's passion | 0:32:15 | 0:32:18 | |
in public services in Wales | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
and the culture within different authorities in Wales. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:25 | |
That's what creates good
councils as well as strong leadership. | 0:32:25 | 0:32:28 | |
Does that mean we're all right as we are? Is 22 all right? | 0:32:28 | 0:32:34 | |
We're not fine as we are... So we need restructuring? | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
No, we don't. You need to
look at some of these counties | 0:32:37 | 0:32:42 | |
in South Wales which has a population of about 70,000 | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
who run their own education department. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:50 | |
If you believe that one council across North Wales | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
is going to improve services in Gwynedd and Wrexham, | 0:32:53 | 0:32:56 | |
I think you and the Welsh Government | 0:32:56 | 0:32:58 | |
are members of the same party. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
Fine. Mair Edwards. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:02 | |
When I heard there were going to be changes again, | 0:33:02 | 0:33:05 | |
there would be restructuring, my heart sank. | 0:33:05 | 0:33:08 | |
It reminded me of the time when we had all the changes | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
while I was in school, to go from 13 counties to eight. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:16 | |
Now we have 22. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
I do believe that 22 is too much. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:19 | |
When you look at South Wales, you can see there are | 0:33:19 | 0:33:25 | |
counties which are so small but with a high population. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
They still have problems with their services | 0:33:30 | 0:33:35 | |
in order to meet the people's needs. | 0:33:36 | 0:33:40 | |
In North Wales, having just one county hall | 0:33:40 | 0:33:45 | |
somewhere in Conwy I suppose, | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
that would suit the people of Dwyfor I'm sure. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
Are in favour or opposing. Opposing. | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
Definitely for North Wales. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
But maybe for some of the South Wales counties, | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
maybe that should be looekd at. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:02 | |
Let's have you Guto Bebb. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:05 | |
I think there's a point here. | 0:34:05 | 0:34:07 | |
I don't want to restructure 22
because the Assembly says so. | 0:34:07 | 0:34:11 | |
On the other hand I think
there are three or four councils | 0:34:11 | 0:34:15 | |
where you can fit the
population into the Millennium Stadium. | 0:34:15 | 0:34:18 | |
I think that's too small. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:20 | |
I remember doing some work before I was elected | 0:34:20 | 0:34:22 | |
in Merthyr Council which was failing. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:25 | |
I think the population was
58,000 and next door you've Blaenau Gwent | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
with a population of 70,000 and they were failing. | 0:34:29 | 0:34:31 | |
I think there is a process here
where we should invite councils | 0:34:32 | 0:34:37 | |
to consider where they can see a possibility of unifying. | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
But it seems Carwyn Jones is going call for restructuring. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:45 | |
The question was whether it was a good thing. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:47 | |
If Carwyn Jones believes that's what he wants to do, | 0:34:47 | 0:34:50 | |
I'd have my doubts. It would cost £200 million. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
At a time where the public purse is so tight | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
I don't think it's a priority to pay £200 million | 0:34:57 | 0:34:59 | |
to make people redundant. | 0:34:59 | 0:35:01 | |
I heard Gwynedd's leader saying they couldn't afford not to. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:04 | |
They have to invest now to have better services in the long-term. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:08 | |
I doubt whether that is true. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
I'd argue there should be cooperation first. | 0:35:11 | 0:35:14 | |
Councils should even
volunteer if they see the need for merging. | 0:35:14 | 0:35:19 | |
I wouldn't like the Assembly deciding they know better | 0:35:19 | 0:35:23 | |
what should work in North Wales. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:25 | |
That was the purpose of devolution. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:27 | |
Devolution is you have
decisions being made as close to the people | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
as possible. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:32 | |
The problem with devolution
in Wales is the Assembly sucks in power | 0:35:32 | 0:35:35 | |
and then decides what's best for the people of Bethesda. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:39 | |
Was the 1990s restructuring by the Tory government a mistake? | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
Yes, definitely. Having 22
local authorities was a mistake. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:48 | |
I was on the committee and we sweated for months. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
At the end, I pulled off my tie and said we'd finished. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
Dafydd Wigley said, don't
worry we'll be back before you retire. | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
Once again, he was right. | 0:35:58 | 0:36:00 | |
The hope back then was
there would be more transborder working. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:04 | |
For example, specialists like speech therapists, | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
that councils would cooperate. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
It hasn't happened enough,
has it, Aled, as a man who knows? | 0:36:11 | 0:36:14 | |
But people won't volunteer to do that. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
It's possible they will if they
think their council will disappear. | 0:36:17 | 0:36:22 | |
We need a good structural plan | 0:36:22 | 0:36:26 | |
for full cooperation where you have a few councils | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
working together and
employing a few speech therapists, | 0:36:29 | 0:36:33 | |
and they cooperate and it's all much more effective. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:37 | |
If this new commission on Monday | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
recommends11 councils, you'd say no? | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
You've asked for my perosnal opinion. | 0:36:44 | 0:36:46 | |
The Williams Committee will report back next week. | 0:36:46 | 0:36:49 | |
I'm giving you my personal opinion. | 0:36:49 | 0:36:51 | |
I think better cooperation
should be given one more chance | 0:36:52 | 0:36:54 | |
partly because of Guto's reasons. | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
There will be millions spent
on redundancies and some logos | 0:36:57 | 0:37:02 | |
and some new offices, and
new vans and everything else. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:06 | |
Try and coopoerate so the
public receives better services. | 0:37:06 | 0:37:10 | |
There has been volunteering... | 0:37:10 | 0:37:11 | |
You're agreeing again! | 0:37:14 | 0:37:17 | |
There has been volunteering because | 0:37:17 | 0:37:19 | |
there's a school improvement plan in the north. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
That isn't going to be implemented until April. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
But yet they're telling us we have to restructure again. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:27 | |
All energies are being put into restructuring | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
rather than improving services. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:32 | |
Sion, you asked the question. | 0:37:32 | 0:37:34 | |
There are also 25 planning departments in Wales | 0:37:34 | 0:37:39 | |
which include the National Parks. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:41 | |
I am very concerned | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
that decision within the National Parks | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
are going to be moved to county councils. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
I feel that will give National Park a negative effect. | 0:37:50 | 0:37:54 | |
What do you think? | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
Let's have a few more from the audience. | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
Paul, you're opinion on this. | 0:38:00 | 0:38:02 | |
Fewer local authorities are stay as we are? | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
I think with the cooperating, we've tried to do that | 0:38:04 | 0:38:08 | |
for several years. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:10 | |
I think the gains are very small. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
I don't there are much savings
to be had through cooperating. | 0:38:14 | 0:38:18 | |
I think it's inevitable | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
that we have fewer authorities. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
I am against having one for the enitre north of Wales. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
North Wales is too big for that. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
There are huge differences between the east, | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
which is much more industrial, and the rural west. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
What do you see for this part of the world? | 0:38:39 | 0:38:41 | |
Gwynedd back with Anglesey? | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
That is very possible. | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
Guto Bebb? I'm not sure. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
The old Gwynedd included Aberconwy as well. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
There would be questions raised there I'm sure. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
I'm not sure what will happen. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:55 | |
But the question about National Parks, I'd oppose | 0:38:55 | 0:38:58 | |
for Snowdonia National Park, for example, to be pulled into | 0:38:58 | 0:39:01 | |
local authority. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:03 | |
But saying that, seeing how the Assembly says | 0:39:03 | 0:39:06 | |
how people should put forward their plans, | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
having any planning body
outside Cardiff would be a waste of time. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
On the point about National
Park, I have to agree with Guto. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:14 | |
It seems to me those are the themes of the evening. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
We're going for a short break. Goodbye. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
Welcome back to the final part of tonight's programme | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
from the Ogwen Valley. | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
Let's have our next question from David Williams. Where are you? | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
The announcement by minister, Alun Davies, | 0:39:47 | 0:39:49 | |
about farming payments is a blow to all farmers in Wales. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:54 | |
Does the panel agree? | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
David says that Alun Davies's announcement on payments to farmers | 0:39:56 | 0:39:59 | |
is a huge blow to farmers across Wales. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:03 | |
Does the panel agree, Elfyn Llwyd? | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
Yes, I do agree. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:07 | |
It's too fast and too deep. | 0:40:07 | 0:40:09 | |
It will move from a per head
payment to a per acre payment. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
These changes will be harmful to farmers in Wales. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
We have to remmeber that
something like 80% of the money | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
coming into agriculture in Wales | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
comes from the European Union. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:28 | |
It ehlps to provide for at least
16,000 families working the land. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:33 | |
Just think if that money
should go, it will be very bad, I think. | 0:40:33 | 0:40:38 | |
I'd hoped that the cut could be changed | 0:40:38 | 0:40:42 | |
in order to make it smaller, | 0:40:42 | 0:40:46 | |
so there's a possibility of adapting to it. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
I'm not going to talk about diversification and Pillar 2. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:52 | |
At the end of the day a
farmer's job is to get the best meat. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:57 | |
That's what he does and he does an excellent job. | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
If we'd lose these little farms, Wales itself would lose out | 0:41:01 | 0:41:06 | |
not only the local economies. | 0:41:06 | 0:41:08 | |
I remember when foot and mouth arrived, | 0:41:08 | 0:41:13 | |
there were some shoppers, I won't say where, | 0:41:13 | 0:41:16 | |
who always complained I
spoke us for farmers and not them. | 0:41:16 | 0:41:20 | |
Foot and mouth arrived here
and the shop's takings were down. | 0:41:20 | 0:41:24 | |
I saw him later and he said, "I see what you mean." | 0:41:24 | 0:41:27 | |
The farmer spends money locally. | 0:41:28 | 0:41:30 | |
But Alun Davies's point is he wants to make the farmer | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
self-sufficient without all the grants | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
like New Zealand, for example. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
That's a lovely ideal, Dewi. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:43 | |
Shouldn't we aim for it? | 0:41:43 | 0:41:45 | |
We've been aiming for it for the last 50 years. | 0:41:45 | 0:41:48 | |
The question is can you do it
on the worldwide price of meat? | 0:41:48 | 0:41:53 | |
You can't. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:55 | |
You can't do it, that's the problem. | 0:41:55 | 0:41:58 | |
Let's turn to some farmers. | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
David, you asked the question. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:01 | |
In this area, it's very mountainous and difficult | 0:42:01 | 0:42:04 | |
without all this recent weather. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
As Elfyn said, we're part of a community, we spend locally. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:14 | |
Money stays in the area. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
Do you accept Alun Davies's idea? | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
He's trying to take you off these grants. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:23 | |
The problem is we're
competing with other countries | 0:42:23 | 0:42:26 | |
who receive these grants. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:27 | |
They have an advantage. | 0:42:27 | 0:42:29 | |
Fine, if he's taking money away from us | 0:42:29 | 0:42:33 | |
but the produce we sell, it has to double in price. | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
Will the public pay more for their food? I don't think so. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:41 | |
The money won't disappear. He's putting it towards development. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:45 | |
But he hasn't said what. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:47 | |
He hasn't said what. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:49 | |
I don't know if the panel know what he's going to do. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
Gwynedd Watkin on behalf of the FUW. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:55 | |
We have to remember what
the public want at the end of the day. | 0:42:56 | 0:42:59 | |
You can go down the route of
New Zealand and have ranch farming | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
where if a sheep gets into difficulty with a lamb | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
they don't call a vet. | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
They let the sheep die where it is. | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
Do you want farms here to be
so big so they can be competitive? | 0:43:09 | 0:43:14 | |
It won't happen because
you've got people like the RSPCA | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
and other environmentalists who lobby so hard | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
compared to countries without grants. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:23 | |
But do you accept his principle? | 0:43:23 | 0:43:26 | |
In the long term, it would be nice to do without grants? | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
Your'e a business like any other business. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:31 | |
But at the end of the day... But you're treated differently. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
Why can't we secure a low price for food for the public, | 0:43:35 | 0:43:40 | |
that's what the money's for, to keep prices down. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:44 | |
Right. Guto Bebb. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:46 | |
I think that it is unfortunate. | 0:43:46 | 0:43:49 | |
You could discuss the
common agriculture policy forever. | 0:43:49 | 0:43:54 | |
This is the situation that exists, | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
and what we've seen of the
policies passed by Alun Davies, | 0:43:57 | 0:44:02 | |
is that farmers are going to be disadvantaged in Wales, | 0:44:02 | 0:44:07 | |
comparable with famers in England perhaps. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
But they'll be at a disadvantage compared with | 0:44:10 | 0:44:12 | |
other European countries. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:14 | |
If we're spending 40% of EU funding on agriculture | 0:44:14 | 0:44:16 | |
there's a question whether that's wise. | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
But if we are spending 40%, | 0:44:19 | 0:44:21 | |
we should have a food supply that's safe, | 0:44:21 | 0:44:23 | |
a food supply of a high
standard, and one that's affordable. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
What's painful about the path we're following is | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
Europe was over-producing significantly, | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
and now we're in a place
where there is a scarcity of food, | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
and Europe are going in the
opposite direction and are paying people | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
not to produce. I do think there is a basic problem | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
with the fact we're asking farmers not to farm. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:47 | |
The fact we're asking farmers
not to supply us with enough food | 0:44:47 | 0:44:52 | |
is terrible. | 0:44:52 | 0:44:54 | |
There are basic questions
about what Europe are trying to create. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
Just to finish... Isn't there an irony here? | 0:44:58 | 0:45:01 | |
You're usually agianst European money but here you're keen to have it. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:05 | |
If we create a situation where
there are 27 countries in Europe | 0:45:05 | 0:45:10 | |
and they accept this money,
we have to have the same situation in Wales. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:15 | |
That's what's fair. | 0:45:15 | 0:45:17 | |
If Wales is different from the other countries it isn't fair. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:20 | |
You usually argue to having business standing on their own two feet. | 0:45:20 | 0:45:24 | |
You can only have that where there is a level playing field. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:29 | |
Wales is different because 70% is in the old LFA. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:34 | |
An acre of high ground and
an acre of low ground isn't the same. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
I accept that. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:39 | |
Wales is different because so many acres are quite barren. | 0:45:39 | 0:45:44 | |
One short point. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:46 | |
The only point I want to make is | 0:45:47 | 0:45:49 | |
Wales has moved faster
towards the environmental matters | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
compared to other parts of Europe. | 0:45:53 | 0:45:54 | |
We are moving faster again now so this hits farmers twice. | 0:45:55 | 0:45:59 | |
Mair Edwards. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:00 | |
I'm not a farmer of a daughter of a farmer. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
I don't always understand agriculture. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:05 | |
What strikes me as being odd at times is | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
there are so many subsidies going into one sector. | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
Getting the balance between boosting a business | 0:46:12 | 0:46:18 | |
in order to maintain communities | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
because agriculture is so important to our communities, | 0:46:21 | 0:46:24 | |
that's a difficult balance to get right. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:28 | |
There is sometimes a danger of over-depending | 0:46:28 | 0:46:33 | |
on subsidies coming from elsewhere. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
When you look at farmers who do succeed | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
in being able to live with fewer subsidies | 0:46:42 | 0:46:47 | |
you see they've gone for quality | 0:46:47 | 0:46:49 | |
and they can increase their price for what they get for it. | 0:46:49 | 0:46:52 | |
But that doesn't put enough food on people's plates. | 0:46:52 | 0:46:58 | |
I think there's a tension between those two things. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:02 | |
I must confess I don't know what the answer is. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
But I do sympthise with
farmers who feel they're losing out. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:09 | |
But I think that needs to be restructured. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:14 | |
If agriculture is so important to the community | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
what hope do young farmers
like me have to try for a council farm? | 0:47:18 | 0:47:22 | |
I have to put in a tender and compete with older people | 0:47:22 | 0:47:27 | |
who has more in their pocket than somebody like me. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
Yet, they still put it out to tender. | 0:47:30 | 0:47:32 | |
I think it should be down to interviews. | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
You're disheartened? Yes. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
Bethan in the front row. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
Young people don't want to
farm because they don't see a profit. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:45 | |
How do you solve that? | 0:47:45 | 0:47:49 | |
In the future the older farmers won't be around for ever. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
There won't be anyone left to farm. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
Fair point. How about you? | 0:47:56 | 0:47:57 | |
I'm in favour of giving money to farmers | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
right across Britain who farm the highlands | 0:48:01 | 0:48:06 | |
to allow them to let the land back to its natural state. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:12 | |
So when we do have torrential rain | 0:48:12 | 0:48:16 | |
the water is absorbed somewhere. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:19 | |
Then we won't have flooding. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:24 | |
You're in favour of things going back to the wild? Yes. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:27 | |
Another young farmer. Hang on, yes, you. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:30 | |
About the comment of too many old farmers, | 0:48:30 | 0:48:34 | |
they hold onto the farms
rather than letting younger people take them. | 0:48:34 | 0:48:38 | |
They shold have a scheme
where young farmers get the farms | 0:48:38 | 0:48:42 | |
for a few years to try and
succeed and se what they can do. | 0:48:42 | 0:48:46 | |
Fine. Aled Roberts, you can have the last word. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
The biggest problem we have is the blow to Welsh farmers | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
is worse than for any other
country in Britain let alone in Europe. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:59 | |
They're taking off 15% from
single farm payments in Wales | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
but 1% in Italy. | 0:49:03 | 0:49:04 | |
That's what devolution is. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
No, not devolution. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
Following a different policy. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:11 | |
We have our own agriculture minister. | 0:49:11 | 0:49:13 | |
I'm not saying policies have to be the same in every country | 0:49:13 | 0:49:16 | |
but where's the sense that Welsh farmers | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
has 15% of their payment removed | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
and Italian farmers have 1%? | 0:49:22 | 0:49:24 | |
That's it. Thank you to the people of the Ogwen Valley. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
Thank you, panel, for your contributions. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:29 | |
Next week we'll be in Pontardawe. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
Until then, goodbye. | 0:49:32 | 0:49:34 |