16/01/2014 Pawb a'i Farn


16/01/2014

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On our panel tonight, the

clinical psychologist, Dr Mair

Edwards.

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The Conservative MP for Aberconwy, Guto Bebb.

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The parliamentary leader of Plaid Cymru, Elfyn Llwyd.

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And one of the Assembly's

Liberal Democrats, Aled

Roberts.

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Please welcome them.

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APPLAUSE

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Good evening and welcome

to another edition of Pawb a'i

Farn.

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We are in Bethesda for our first discussion of 2014

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and Plas Ffrancon Leisure

Centre.

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Our audience is from the Ogwen Valley.

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But at the beginning of a new year, how familiar will the topics of discussion be?

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We will find out during the next hour.

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We have received many

questions and we have

selected a handful

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and we'll go straight to the first one.

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The usual addresses are at

the bottom of the screen and

we will be

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in Pontardawe next Thursday

evening and you are welcome

to join us.

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But tonight, in Bethesda, our

first question comes from

Karen Brown.

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Karen, what is your question?

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George Osborne claims the statistics

are starting to

suggest that the economy is strengthening.

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But when will we see signs of that in areas like the Ogwen Valley?

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Thank you, Karen,

for the first question of the

night.

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George Osborne claims the

statistics are starting to

suggest that the economy is

strengthening.

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But when will we see signs of

that in areas like the Ogwen

Valley?

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Can I come to you, Elfyn

Llwyd, for the first answer of

the night?

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Yes, of course, Dewi.

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It's true to say that the economy in London

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and the south-east of England is strengthening.

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There is no doubt about that.

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But the same cannot be said outside those areas.

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It just underlines that the

economic policies of

governments

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have been concentrating on the city and that area.

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It's obvious that the economy is getting better

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but there is not much

happening in rural areas,

that's for sure.

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What we need to do, I think, is to ensure that we now realise

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that smaller and

medium-sized companies are

crucial to the Welsh

economy.

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We in the cities and in rural areas have to ensure

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an aid package for those

companies

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because that is where 90% of wages are paid in Wales.

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So it's very important we do that.

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Things like ensuring there is a Welsh bank

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to lend money to them.

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The banks are still letting them down.

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We have to ensure that business tax is cut.

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One of the interesting things is, and I'm sure I speak for all politicians,

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is that when you talk to

businesses,

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they soon tell you that the one thing killing business

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is the business tax and they don't get anything back for it.

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So we have to look at that to ensure that sector grows.

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We also have to think about

what's happening in rural

areas.

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We know there are problems in the world of agriculture

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and we know that tourism needs a boost.

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There are many other things we could be doing.

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But on the whole, you accept that things are strengthening?

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In some areas.

All right. Guto

Bebb?

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I'm glad that Elfyn agrees

that the economy is

improving.

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I would accept that

description. It is improving

slowly.

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But if you compare the way

the British economy is

developing

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with France and Germany at the moment,

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the development in Britain is very encouraging.

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Where I would disagree with

Elfyn is his claim that we are

only

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seeing economic growth in London and the south-east.

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I was in a meeting in Parliament last week with John Cridland from the CBI

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and the CBI's internal figures show that the largest growth

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is happening in the north-east of England and the Midlands.

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Because they are starting from a lower point.

Maybe.

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But Wales is also starting from a low point, don't forget.

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The Cheshire chamber of

commerce has announced

that there

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is more confidence among businesses there,

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and Cheshire is just over the

border, and they said there is

more

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confidence among

businesses there than there

has been for a decade.

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So the growth is not only in London and the south-east.

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The growth can be seen across many parts of Britain.

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What about Northwest

Wales?

I was going to refer to

this constituency.

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In the Arfon constituency

during the five years before

the last

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general election,

unemployment increased by

44%.

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Since 2010, unemployment has dropped.

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In this constituency during the last year unemployment has dropped by 16%.

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That means 250 people in

this constituency have found

jobs.

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Of course, we are starting from a very low level in Wales

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and there are specific reasons for that.

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But I think we have to be very careful not to play down what we have to offer Wales.

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Who is doing that? Are you

accusing anybody of doing

that?

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There is a tendency to

complain.

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For example, the economy is succeeding in England, but not here in Wales.

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If the message is always

negative...

But if that's true?

It's not.

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I don't think it is. That's the truth.

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If you look at the

unemployment figures,

unemployment is dropping.

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In my constituency,

unemployment is lower than it

was in 2010 when I was

elected.

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That is a movement in the right direction.

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In Llandudno, for example,

during the first three months

of this year

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there will be an investment of

£7.5 million in the private

sector.

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There are definite signs. Of

course, there is still a lot to

do.

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As Elfyn said, business tax.

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The Chancellor of the

Exchequer is giving small

businesses in England a

reduction.

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Will the Assembly do the same thing in Wales? That is what I want to know.

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Aled Roberts?

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It is the Welsh Government that would do it in Wales, not

the Assembly.

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But I think there is a fair point here.

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There has been a growth in the economy.

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More than one million jobs have been created across Britain.

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But obviously, the challenge is bigger in some areas than others.

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I think there is a problem in some areas like the Ogwen Valley

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and the area where I was

born, where the old traditional

industries have

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disappeared and to some extent no jobs have replaced them for 20 years.

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Do you see any hope for those areas then?

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I think Elfyn made a fair point.

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What we have to do in Wales, I think the days when

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a company came in from Japan and created 300 or 400 jobs have gone.

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What we have to do is give small businesses in Wales more support

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so they can grow

and to make

sure that the public sector in

areas

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like Gwynedd takes the opportunities to support local businesses.

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Your party has been part of

the coalition Government

during the last three and a

half years.

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Was it worth adopting George Osborne's painful plans in order to get to this point?

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It would have been very easy for us to have walked away

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and accept

no responsibility

three and half years ago.

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That responsibility was taken

by us.

Was it worth it?

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We agreed on a programme.

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What we have to do is compare Britain's performance

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at the moment with countries like France who did things another way.

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Can I add one other point?

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There is an extra challenge

as well and that is salary

levels.

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Unfortunately, in my

constituency and in Guto's

constituency,

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salaries are much too low.

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It is a challenge for us

to ensure not only that we

create

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a growth in the economy but

that we create jobs which are

worth having.

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Mr Osborne has said today

that he is hoping to see the

minimum wage increase

significantly.

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That's fine.

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But I would like to see jobs

where young people are

encouraged

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to stay at home and if they

want to buy houses then they

can with the salaries they

receive.

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Salaries in North Wales and Wales in general are way behind and they are too low.

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Mair Edwards?

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I think when we look at the differences between this

area

and London for example,

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I think there is a feeling in this area

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that this growth hasn't

arrived quite yet.

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When you look at the quality of the jobs available,

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maybe there are more people

in work but when I assess

people and go

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around and talk to people who come and see me,

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they are still saving and they are still finding it difficult.

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When you then look at the

statistics with regards to

optimism,

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what you see is that that optimism usually looks at middle-class people

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who are in professional jobs

or business people

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who are in business with other businesses.

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But the more local businesses

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and the small businesses

that

depend on our communities

find it very

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difficult to spend the money because they don't get what they need.

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I think that's the problem.

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We in Northwest Wales, at the moment, have not seen this growth

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which is so obvious if you go to London at the moment.

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You are talking about these

low wages in North Wales but

they are

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not too low for many people

coming from Eastern Europe,

are they?

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That is a reasonable point.

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We say that wages are low and yet we have many jobs

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which are filled by people

who come here from

somewhere else.

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So in that respect

I welcome the fact we are

seriously looking at changing

the minimum wage

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because the minimum wage

has been held back during

the last few years.

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I understand why but it puts small businesses in a difficult

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situation and maybe

they can't afford to pay much

more.

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I think we do need to look at the possibility of increasing the minimum wage

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at a time when there is

growth in the economy.

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But I think we need to look at things such as skills too.

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You look at two counties

in North Wales, Flint and

Wrexham,

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where the situation is much

stronger than in the north

west.

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And yet, Denbighshire,

Conwy, Anglesey and

Gwynedd

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are the areas that have

received hundreds of millions

from Europe. What have we

done with that?

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We're talking about

supporting small businesses,

we've had 15 years of

European funding.

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So you say it has been wasted?

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We've had 15 years to invest in skills, we haven't done it.

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The biggest investor in skills in North Wales is Airbus

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and that has support from the Welsh Government,

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but it is a private sector

company that invests in top

quality

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skills, creating quality jobs.

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And we should make more of the skills

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at Bangor University, Glyndwr and Aberystwyth.

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I will return to the panel

shortly. Audience?

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How will we attract people to

invest in the businesses you

mention?

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There is a site in Bryncegin in Llandegau.

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A huge some of money was invested there.

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I think £9.5 million was set aside for that site

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and they were suppose to

employ 1,600. That goes

back to 2005.

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Nothing has been done there

and £1 million has already

been spent,

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has already been wasted, on that site.

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And there are no buildings

there.

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I'd suggest it coincided with the worst possible

time,

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as far as the economy.

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You can answer that shortly. Sion Jones?

Thank you.

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This question is for Guto and

Aled. Are millionaires now

better off?

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That's your question. You're welcome to answer that.

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They are worse off now than

they were for 13 years under

Labour.

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Throughout that time,

they paid 40% on their

earnings.

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There were millionaires under

the last Labour government

that

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could hide their money from income tax.

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Instead of paying income tax,

they paid on the rise in

interest.

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They paid 18% tax, while

people who cleaned offices

paid 22%.

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the first thing this

Government did was scrap

that loophole, a loophole

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created by Peter Mandelson

who said he was proud of the

fact that

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people were filthy rich in

London.

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That's what Labour did, remember that.

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Sion is a Labour councillor. You're welcome to

respond.

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It looks like the Tory

Government in London are

working for millionaires.

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The working people are taxed most and are finding it tough.

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When the Conservative Lib Dem Coalition Government

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came into existence, people paid tax after £6,500.

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The coalition invested in

income tax

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and reduced taxes for the

poorest in society and from

April,

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people can earn £10,000

without paying a penny in

income tax.

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Married couples, £20,000

without paying a penny in

income tax.

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Labour cut taxes for the richest in London.

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I disagree, but there we are.

You're welcome

to do so.

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Aled Roberts, you're part of this government too.

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Tens of thousands of people

in Wales will not pay a penny

in tax

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next year because of London policies.

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The Labour Party is talking

about banking bonuses this

week.

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The bonuses were bigger during their time,

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so what are they complaining

about?

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What about the living wage?

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I think it is a difficult question in the context of rural Wales

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because it is £7.85 and I think George Osborne's plans to

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move to £7 is correct, but I would find it hard to tell small

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businesses they have to pay

£7.85 in the same way as the

public sector.

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It's jobs that count. People have to work.

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I agree with increasing the

minimum

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but pushing it to a fee that the

public sector can afford is too

far.

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More voices from the audience. What about you?

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I'm worried about young

people, those coming out of

school,

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there's nothing to offer them,

not everyone can go to

university.

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These young people are

disheartened

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and I've heard that the stats for 2011 say there is

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an increase in young

people 15-34 committing

suicide.

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I'm sure in this area there

are a number of young people

that

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have been referred for the same thing.

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There we are. What about you, with your hand

up?

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I'm surprised to see Guto

Bebb complaining about

Labour

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helping the rich.

That's what they did.

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You have cut income tax, you

can say that Labour had a

lower

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income tax, that doesn't make

cutting income tax a good

thing.

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Also,

you say that you help the

poor.

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As well as increasing the

amount people have to earn

to pay

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income tax,

you have been increasing

VAT,

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that has hit people, it hits the poor most of all.

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And the Lib Dems too, Clegg

said that the Conservatives

would

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increase VAT, so he wanted to stop the Conservatives.

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Instead, you joined them

and helped them increase

taxes.

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Thank you. Gwynedd Watkin in the back row.

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The area certainly needs

investment.

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Maybe we can discuss agriculture later on.

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But that will have a greater

effect.

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The schemes have helped, but it is not enough.

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Paul Rawlinson? Let me get the microphone to

you.

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One way to develop the local

economy is for the public

sector to

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spend more money with local business.

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What plans do the parties have to promote that to

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ensure there is more money

spent in this area, rather than

going

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to large companies from

elsewhere?

Thank you,

Paul.

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Deri Thomas in the back row.

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I feel that small companies

are important, as has been

mentioned.

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This is such a nice area, the entertainment

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and tourism industries, we

have the Zipwire close by too,

that is

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an example, inspiring people, but in my field,

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hearing that Anglesey sea salt, Halen Mon, has been

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given special status, I hope

that the university can

contribute

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to industries that build on

that.

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An example in my field is

using agricultural land to

produce

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new crops, something

pioneering,

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using the latest

technology from the

university...

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One project I have is growing

crops for use in Alzheime'rs

drugs.

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Some people may have heard

of that.

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There are plenty of examples

and examples such as Halen

Mon

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and the shitake mushrooms being grown in Beddgelert,

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inspires small businesses in the agriculture industry,

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but it is brand new agriculture, in one way.

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I want to

bring this debate to

a close. But you can

contribute.

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James Gibbon, Bangor University. Just two things.

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One about the waste of European money.

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There is a project

running in Bangor that

employs

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something like 70% of

people...

And European money has been vital.

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European money is helping to fund it.

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And one more thing, there is

a scheme supporting

businesses,

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helping them to actually work with larger companies.

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I do not consider that to be a waste of money.

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Some quick comments. Mair?

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I agree that we need to go

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after small businesses and help them develop.

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And of course, the university has an important role to play,

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but I do think that from day

today,

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a large number of our young

people

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and society find it very

difficult.

A sentence each.

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Well, no-one is denying that people are finding it tough.

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But when you inherit an

economy with £160 billion

debt with the

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banks failing, it's no surprise

that it takes time to solve that

problem.

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But we are heading in the right direction.

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We mentioned the university, we need more cooperation,

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but also, the Welsh

Government needs to be

thinking about targeting

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underprivileged areas

and ensuring that there is

public

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investment there ahead of

other areas.

Aled Roberts.

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I spent the morning looking at

the spending of European

money in Wales

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and there is a problem as

regards some schemes and

sustainability.

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The Welsh Government does

not have a good record in

some fields.

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There we are. We have discussed that subject for

15

minutes. Thank you.

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Let's move on to the next question, it comes from Gruff Morris. What is your question?

0:19:110:19:15

There are plans to build a new estate of up

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to 70 houses in Bethesda.

0:19:180:19:20

Does the panel agree that the development should be

0:19:200:19:26

stopped from going ahead?

0:19:260:19:29

Gruff talking about the development of a

new

housing estate,

0:19:290:19:32

70 houses, in Bethesda.

0:19:320:19:34

Does the panel agree that the development should be

0:19:340:19:37

stopped from

going ahead?

That is a hot topic in many areas.

0:19:370:19:41

Mair, I will start with you this time.

0:19:410:19:43

I think it is difficult at the moment.

0:19:430:19:46

We know we have a poor housing stock in areas,

0:19:460:19:49

especially in

underprivilged area.

0:19:490:19:52

We need to improve the housing stock.

0:19:530:19:56

We also know we need to

develop new,

0:19:560:20:00

affordable housing for people to raise families,

0:20:000:20:04

to make sure communities remain alive,

0:20:040:20:08

that schools have enough

pupils so they can continue to

thrive.

0:20:080:20:13

But we can't drown an area

0:20:130:20:19

with so many homes that the community

0:20:190:20:22

can't cope with the number of

people moving in at the same

time.

0:20:220:20:27

70 houses doesn't

sound

likely of doing that.

0:20:270:20:31

Yes, in an area such as this one, I think it will.

0:20:310:20:34

I think the statistics say

0:20:340:20:37

84 houses were built between

0:20:370:20:40

2002 and 2012.

0:20:400:20:42

That is, it is a big

number to come at the same

time.

0:20:420:20:47

It isn't just 70 houses.

0:20:470:20:49

I noticed there were other

plans.

0:20:490:20:51

24 homnes are to be built in another area in Bethesda.

0:20:510:20:55

Then there are six other houses in another area.

0:20:550:20:59

When you look at the areas which have been earmarked

0:20:590:21:04

for development, some of those areas are huge.

0:21:050:21:09

When you think look at the

developments taking place in

Bangor

0:21:090:21:13

you then realise there's going

to be a flood of housing at the

same time.

0:21:130:21:17

What worries me is that flood will be too much to take

0:21:170:21:21

at the same time.

0:21:210:21:23

Over a period of time, I'd think

there was room for

development.

0:21:230:21:27

But I think it has to be at a rate where the community,

0:21:270:21:32

especially a Welsh

community,

0:21:320:21:34

can accept it and change the language.

0:21:340:21:38

If someone moves in from the

outside, they can change

language

0:21:380:21:41

to speak Welsh.

0:21:410:21:44

Gruff, what worries you?

0:21:440:21:46

Well, the big problem is the

effect it will have on the

Welsh language

0:21:460:21:50

in the area.

0:21:500:21:52

I agree totally with what Mrs Edwards has said.

0:21:520:21:55

If it was done slowly, a drip

feed,

0:21:570:22:00

it would be easier for the area to cope with it.

0:22:000:22:04

There is, you are quite right,

0:22:040:22:05

there is the threat of other developments

0:22:050:22:09

in the area too.

0:22:090:22:11

But how...

But this is a

planning application.

0:22:110:22:13

It hasn't been passed yet.

How string is the feeling agianst it?

0:22:130:22:17

A high number had come to Neuadd Ogwen

0:22:170:22:23

last year, when they were discussing this.

0:22:230:22:28

There was a good local

response.

0:22:280:22:30

Dafydd Meurig in the back row.

0:22:300:22:33

Let's get the microphone there.

0:22:340:22:37

I won't give my opinion on this

case

0:22:370:22:39

because I am on the

Gwynedd planning

committee, but generally

0:22:390:22:43

it is a difficult problem what to do with housing.

0:22:430:22:47

You need houses for local

people but you need houses

of the right type.

0:22:470:22:51

Affordable housing for local

people.

0:22:510:22:54

The front row.

0:22:540:22:56

It is a hot topic in Bethesda

but it's an even bigger one on

Bangor.

0:22:570:23:01

610 houses are to be built between two sites.

0:23:010:23:05

That will effect the structure of

the area generally

0:23:050:23:09

and it will also transform the community totally.

0:23:090:23:15

Will 70 houses in Bethesda do that?

0:23:150:23:18

Bethesda is a lot smaller than Penrhosgarnedd in Bangor.

0:23:180:23:23

True. In the back row.

0:23:230:23:25

There's 700 house but where are the jobs?

0:23:260:23:29

There aren't any.

0:23:290:23:31

Go down Bethesdsa main

street and see the shops that

are closed.

0:23:310:23:34

There are lots of houses for

sale and they want to build

more.

0:23:340:23:38

The only thing they've done,

is have the poeple who are

kicked out

0:23:380:23:42

of the big towns and dumped them here.

0:23:420:23:44

Don't you think the 70 houses will be suitable for local people

0:23:440:23:49

or those looking for a new house?

0:23:490:23:52

Fine but how will they pay for it without a job?

0:23:520:23:55

Right, let's go to the panel.

0:23:550:23:57

Guto Bebb.

0:23:570:23:58

I can't give an opinion on 70 houses in Bethesda.

0:23:580:24:01

I don't know the area well

enough.

0:24:010:24:03

But I think this is something

we're going to see across

North Wales

0:24:030:24:06

for the next 20 years.

0:24:070:24:08

There's been huge pressures on local authorities...

0:24:080:24:12

I'm not going to blame local authorities,

0:24:120:24:15

but they're under pressure

in North Wales, and across

Wales,

0:24:150:24:19

to acept the Assembly's policy of building more homes.

0:24:190:24:22

Councils, be they in

Gwynedd, Conwy, have

agreed to plans

0:24:220:24:27

to build thousands of homes. In Conwy...

0:24:270:24:30

Are they needed?

0:24:300:24:31

In Conwy, we're talking about 6,300 houese.

0:24:310:24:34

That means about 20,000 of the population.

0:24:340:24:37

The population of Conwy at the moment is 110,000.

0:24:370:24:39

We're talking about a population growth of 20%.

0:24:390:24:42

We had the question asking

where the economic growth

was coming from,

0:24:420:24:45

it's right to ask where we can find 20,000 people,

0:24:450:24:51

what's the nature of the jobs offered to these people?

0:24:510:24:54

Conwy Council, who have

just accepted these 6,300

houses,

0:24:540:24:59

are also closing rural schools.

0:24:590:25:02

So they're not expecting a

natural growth in the

population.

0:25:020:25:05

I'm afraid this is a structure forced on local councils

0:25:050:25:08

right across NOrth Wales by the Assembly.

0:25:080:25:11

Unfortunately, there are examples of people

0:25:110:25:14

who say they're against this type of thing,

0:25:140:25:17

but who have voted in favour

of it.

0:25:170:25:19

I think I'm right to say, Aled can correct me,

0:25:190:25:23

there has been a strong campaign in Wrexham.

0:25:230:25:25

Wrexham Council is

continuing to reject the

Assembly's pressing.

0:25:250:25:28

The same backbone wasn't seen by Conwy Council,

0:25:280:25:33

the only party to reject it in

Conwy was the

Conservatives.

0:25:330:25:36

Aled Roberts.

That's true.

I was the leader of Wrexham.

0:25:370:25:40

The starting point is the Welsh Government.

0:25:400:25:43

The Welsh Govenrment tells

every Welsh council how

many homes

0:25:430:25:46

that have to be built under

the local plan within ten

years.

0:25:460:25:50

In Wrexham, the council was

keen to have about 6,000

houses.

0:25:500:25:55

The Welsh Governmet

wanted between 10,000 and

12,000.

0:25:550:25:59

Once the local plan is

accepted by the county

council

0:25:590:26:04

after that it's just a matter of

choosing areas within the

county

0:26:040:26:08

for houses.

0:26:080:26:10

If the area of Bethesda has been chosen

0:26:100:26:13

for housing developments, it's

difficult for any planning

committee

0:26:130:26:18

to reject the plan.

0:26:180:26:20

But I thought housing stock was old in an area like Bethesda.

0:26:200:26:23

New homes are needed and this is the way to do that.

0:26:230:26:27

No. What they are doing is

aying how many new houses

need to be built.

0:26:270:26:32

That's the problem.

0:26:320:26:34

Another Welsh Government

failing is they have changed

their opinion

0:26:340:26:38

on language assessments.

0:26:380:26:39

They have done nothing for two years until TAN 20.

0:26:390:26:43

What they have said is, in the first instance they were eager

0:26:440:26:47

to have language

assessments within the local

plan.

0:26:470:26:50

During the past year, after the minister was changed,

0:26:500:26:53

they have said they aren't going after that,

0:26:530:26:55

they want language

assesments for individual

applications.

0:26:550:26:58

Elfyn Llwyd.

0:26:580:26:59

The first thing I'd say, years

ago when I was a young

solicitor,

0:26:590:27:02

and that is years ago,

0:27:020:27:04

I worked a lot on planning

law.

0:27:040:27:07

The two bog words were always local need.

0:27:070:27:11

Shouldn't you start with that?

0:27:110:27:13

At the end of the day, planning rules

0:27:130:27:16

are needed to be implemented locally.

0:27:160:27:19

That's their purpose.

0:27:190:27:21

I don't know what planet these people in Cardiff are living on.

0:27:210:27:24

They tell people of this area they have to take 70, like that.

0:27:240:27:28

If the local need isn't there, you can't force it on anyone.

0:27:280:27:33

Mair is right. Maybe the housing stock is old

0:27:380:27:41

but some of us have been

beating the drum on this for

years.

0:27:410:27:46

If there isn't VAT on stuff that builds new homes

0:27:460:27:50

you shouldn't put VAT on maintaining old houses.

0:27:500:27:54

There are plenty within the reach of young people

0:27:540:27:57

to renovate them to make proper homes.

0:27:570:27:59

We should offer them grants to do that.

0:27:590:28:03

It isn't beyond people to think of things like that.

0:28:030:28:06

It's easy to say, that field's going, let's build 70.

0:28:060:28:09

That's raw and stupid.

0:28:090:28:12

It doesn't match up with local

need,

0:28:120:28:14

and I think it should be

opposed.

0:28:140:28:16

OK, fine.

0:28:160:28:17

Rhiannon Evans.

0:28:190:28:21

When I sat on Bethesda

Community Council many

years ago,

0:28:220:28:26

this county was earmarked for

homes.

0:28:260:28:29

Well, we fought against expensive houses

0:28:300:28:35

at Llawr y Nant.

0:28:350:28:37

We didn't receive much local support.

0:28:370:28:40

There was only a small group.

0:28:400:28:43

We did managed to overturn

the plans to build huge

houses,

0:28:430:28:47

we halved it. We need houses for rent in Bethesda

0:28:470:28:50

and bungalows please for the elderly.

0:28:500:28:52

You can close on that, Guto Bebb.

0:28:540:28:56

I agree with everything Elfyn

said.

That's new!

0:28:560:28:59

But I would point out one

thing.

I must have made a

mistake!

0:28:590:29:03

But I would point out one

thing which isn't completely

honest.

0:29:030:29:07

I think it's too late.

0:29:070:29:09

The truth is, Gwynedd's

leaders have accepted these

plans.

0:29:090:29:13

Once the leadership has accepted these plans

0:29:130:29:17

and Plaid were the leaders at

the time, what will happen

now?

0:29:170:29:20

If Wrexham has enough

backbone to say no, why

didn't that happen?

0:29:200:29:24

Conwy are lead by Plaid

Cymru, Gwynedd are lead by

Plaid Cymru,

0:29:240:29:27

but I wonder whether the fact

Plaid Cymru was part of the

coalition

0:29:270:29:30

in Cardiff before 2011

influenced the decision

making?

0:29:300:29:33

I don't want to turn this into a Punch and Judy show.

0:29:330:29:36

Come on!

0:29:360:29:38

I was looking forward to that!

You probably were!

0:29:380:29:41

The plain truth of it is there is a review in Gwynedd

0:29:410:29:45

to see where the language comes into planning...

0:29:450:29:49

But the development has been approved.

0:29:490:29:52

Yes. But if the review comes into something else

0:29:520:29:54

it will have to be

reconsidered.

0:29:540:29:57

I just don't see how people in Cardiff, all respect to them,

0:29:570:30:01

knows better than the people of Bethesda about local need.

0:30:010:30:05

I don't understand it and I don't accept it.

0:30:050:30:06

I don't disagree with that.

0:30:070:30:08

Why are representatives of

Bethesda, who are Plaid

Cymru members,

0:30:080:30:12

haven't stood up to the

Assembly and that's not what

happened.

0:30:120:30:16

They bowed down to what Cardiff called for.

0:30:160:30:19

There is a council in North

Wales that's gone the

opposite way.

0:30:190:30:22

This review on the language and so forth,

0:30:220:30:24

will change things we should.

0:30:240:30:27

The words spilt and milk come into it.

0:30:270:30:30

Maybe indeed but we'll see what comes of it.

0:30:300:30:32

I knew you wouldn't agree for long!

0:30:320:30:35

It's time for a break. Join us in two minutes.

0:30:360:30:40

Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Bethesda.

0:30:570:31:02

Let's have out third question asked by Sion Jones.

0:31:020:31:05

We've heard from you before. What's your question?

0:31:050:31:08

It seems that the number of

local authorities in Wales will

be cut.

0:31:080:31:13

How will that effect services in Wales?

0:31:130:31:16

There we go, Sion says there will be fewer councils in Wales,

0:31:160:31:19

so they say, but will that raise the standards of services?

0:31:190:31:25

Aled Roberts, as the former leader of Wrexham Council.

0:31:250:31:28

I think there is a theory that more equals better.

0:31:290:31:34

That's not true.

0:31:340:31:36

There are smaller councils

which provide excellent

services.

0:31:360:31:39

There are large councils which provide poor services.

0:31:390:31:43

There's a hang-up in Wales

about restructuring all the

time.

0:31:430:31:49

If we look at the Health Service in North Wales

0:31:490:31:52

we all knwo that big, or size,

0:31:520:31:56

doesn'tequate to improving

services.

0:31:560:31:59

We have to be very careful.

0:31:590:32:02

Are you against it?

0:32:020:32:04

It sounds like it.

0:32:050:32:07

I don't think that restructuring, in one thing,

0:32:070:32:12

will mean things will improve.

0:32:120:32:14

I think there's a problem with people's passion

0:32:150:32:18

in public services in Wales

0:32:180:32:20

and the culture within different authorities in Wales.

0:32:210:32:25

That's what creates good

councils as well as strong

leadership.

0:32:250:32:28

Does that mean we're all right as we are? Is 22 all right?

0:32:280:32:34

We're not fine as we are...

So we need restructuring?

0:32:340:32:37

No, we don't. You need to

look at some of these

counties

0:32:370:32:42

in South Wales which has a population of about 70,000

0:32:420:32:46

who run their own education department.

0:32:470:32:50

If you believe that one council across North Wales

0:32:500:32:53

is going to improve services in Gwynedd and Wrexham,

0:32:530:32:56

I think you and the Welsh Government

0:32:560:32:58

are members of the same

party.

0:32:580:33:00

Fine. Mair Edwards.

0:33:000:33:02

When I heard there were going to be changes again,

0:33:020:33:05

there would be restructuring, my heart sank.

0:33:050:33:08

It reminded me of the time when we had all the changes

0:33:080:33:11

while I was in school, to go from 13 counties to eight.

0:33:110:33:16

Now we have 22.

0:33:160:33:18

I do believe that 22 is too

much.

0:33:180:33:19

When you look at South Wales, you can see there are

0:33:190:33:25

counties which are so small but with a high population.

0:33:260:33:30

They still have problems with their services

0:33:300:33:35

in order to meet the people's

needs.

0:33:360:33:40

In North Wales, having just one county hall

0:33:400:33:45

somewhere in Conwy I

suppose,

0:33:450:33:48

that would suit the people of Dwyfor I'm sure.

0:33:480:33:52

Are in favour or opposing.

Opposing.

0:33:520:33:55

Definitely for North Wales.

0:33:550:33:57

But maybe for some of the South Wales counties,

0:33:570:33:59

maybe that should be looekd

at.

0:34:000:34:02

Let's have you Guto Bebb.

0:34:020:34:05

I think there's a point here.

0:34:050:34:07

I don't want to restructure 22

because the Assembly says

so.

0:34:070:34:11

On the other hand I think

there are three or four

councils

0:34:110:34:15

where you can fit the

population into the Millennium

Stadium.

0:34:150:34:18

I think that's too small.

0:34:180:34:20

I remember doing some work before I was elected

0:34:200:34:22

in Merthyr Council which was failing.

0:34:220:34:25

I think the population was

58,000 and next door you've

Blaenau Gwent

0:34:250:34:29

with a population of 70,000 and they were failing.

0:34:290:34:31

I think there is a process here

where we should invite

councils

0:34:320:34:37

to consider where they can see a possibility of unifying.

0:34:370:34:40

But it seems Carwyn Jones is going call for restructuring.

0:34:400:34:45

The question was whether it was a good thing.

0:34:450:34:47

If Carwyn Jones believes that's what he wants to do,

0:34:470:34:50

I'd have my doubts. It would cost £200 million.

0:34:500:34:53

At a time where the public purse is so tight

0:34:540:34:57

I don't think it's a priority to pay £200 million

0:34:570:34:59

to make people redundant.

0:34:590:35:01

I heard Gwynedd's leader saying they couldn't afford not to.

0:35:010:35:04

They have to invest now to have better services in the long-term.

0:35:040:35:08

I doubt whether that is true.

0:35:080:35:11

I'd argue there should be cooperation first.

0:35:110:35:14

Councils should even

volunteer if they see the need

for merging.

0:35:140:35:19

I wouldn't like the Assembly deciding they know better

0:35:190:35:23

what should work in North

Wales.

0:35:230:35:25

That was the purpose of devolution.

0:35:250:35:27

Devolution is you have

decisions being made as

close to the people

0:35:270:35:30

as possible.

0:35:300:35:32

The problem with devolution

in Wales is the Assembly

sucks in power

0:35:320:35:35

and then decides what's best for the people of Bethesda.

0:35:350:35:39

Was the 1990s restructuring by the Tory government a mistake?

0:35:390:35:42

Yes, definitely. Having 22

local authorities was a

mistake.

0:35:420:35:48

I was on the committee and we sweated for months.

0:35:480:35:50

At the end, I pulled off my tie and said we'd finished.

0:35:500:35:53

Dafydd Wigley said, don't

worry we'll be back before

you retire.

0:35:530:35:56

Once again, he was right.

0:35:580:36:00

The hope back then was

there would be more

transborder working.

0:36:000:36:04

For example, specialists like speech therapists,

0:36:040:36:08

that councils would

cooperate.

0:36:080:36:11

It hasn't happened enough,

has it, Aled, as a man who

knows?

0:36:110:36:14

But people won't volunteer to do that.

0:36:140:36:17

It's possible they will if they

think their council will

disappear.

0:36:170:36:22

We need a good structural

plan

0:36:220:36:26

for full cooperation where you have a few councils

0:36:260:36:29

working together and

employing a few speech

therapists,

0:36:290:36:33

and they cooperate and it's all much more effective.

0:36:330:36:37

If this new commission on Monday

0:36:370:36:40

recommends11 councils, you'd say no?

0:36:400:36:44

You've asked for my perosnal opinion.

0:36:440:36:46

The Williams Committee will report back next week.

0:36:460:36:49

I'm giving you my personal

opinion.

0:36:490:36:51

I think better cooperation

should be given one more

chance

0:36:520:36:54

partly because of Guto's

reasons.

0:36:540:36:57

There will be millions spent

on redundancies and some

logos

0:36:570:37:02

and some new offices, and

new vans and everything

else.

0:37:020:37:06

Try and coopoerate so the

public receives better

services.

0:37:060:37:10

There has been

volunteering...

0:37:100:37:11

You're agreeing again!

0:37:140:37:17

There has been volunteering

because

0:37:170:37:19

there's a school improvement plan in the north.

0:37:190:37:22

That isn't going to be implemented until April.

0:37:220:37:24

But yet they're telling us we have to restructure again.

0:37:240:37:27

All energies are being put into restructuring

0:37:270:37:30

rather than improving

services.

0:37:300:37:32

Sion, you asked the question.

0:37:320:37:34

There are also 25 planning departments in Wales

0:37:340:37:39

which include the National

Parks.

0:37:390:37:41

I am very concerned

0:37:410:37:44

that decision within the National Parks

0:37:440:37:48

are going to be moved to county councils.

0:37:480:37:50

I feel that will give National Park a negative effect.

0:37:500:37:54

What do you think?

0:37:540:37:57

Let's have a few more from the audience.

0:37:570:38:00

Paul, you're opinion on this.

0:38:000:38:02

Fewer local authorities are stay as we are?

0:38:020:38:04

I think with the cooperating, we've tried to do that

0:38:040:38:08

for several years.

0:38:080:38:10

I think the gains are very

small.

0:38:100:38:14

I don't there are much savings

to be had through

cooperating.

0:38:140:38:18

I think it's inevitable

0:38:180:38:21

that we have fewer

authorities.

0:38:210:38:24

I am against having one for the enitre north of Wales.

0:38:240:38:27

North Wales is too big for

that.

0:38:270:38:30

There are huge differences between the east,

0:38:300:38:34

which is much more industrial, and the rural west.

0:38:340:38:39

What do you see for this part of the world?

0:38:390:38:41

Gwynedd back with Anglesey?

0:38:410:38:43

That is very possible.

0:38:430:38:46

Guto Bebb?

I'm not sure.

0:38:460:38:48

The old Gwynedd included Aberconwy as well.

0:38:480:38:51

There would be questions raised there I'm sure.

0:38:510:38:54

I'm not sure what will happen.

0:38:540:38:55

But the question about National Parks, I'd oppose

0:38:550:38:58

for Snowdonia National Park, for example, to be pulled into

0:38:580:39:01

local authority.

0:39:010:39:03

But saying that, seeing how the Assembly says

0:39:030:39:06

how people should put forward their plans,

0:39:060:39:08

having any planning body

outside Cardiff would be a

waste of time.

0:39:080:39:11

On the point about National

Park, I have to agree with

Guto.

0:39:110:39:14

It seems to me those are the themes of the evening.

0:39:170:39:20

We're going for a short break. Goodbye.

0:39:200:39:22

Welcome back to the final part of tonight's programme

0:39:380:39:41

from the Ogwen Valley.

0:39:410:39:43

Let's have our next question from David Williams. Where are you?

0:39:430:39:46

The announcement by minister, Alun Davies,

0:39:470:39:49

about farming payments is a blow to all farmers in Wales.

0:39:490:39:54

Does the panel agree?

0:39:540:39:56

David says that Alun Davies's announcement on payments to farmers

0:39:560:39:59

is a huge blow to farmers across Wales.

0:39:590:40:03

Does the panel agree, Elfyn Llwyd?

0:40:030:40:05

Yes, I do agree.

0:40:050:40:07

It's too fast and too deep.

0:40:070:40:09

It will move from a per head

payment to a per acre

payment.

0:40:100:40:13

These changes will be harmful to farmers in Wales.

0:40:160:40:20

We have to remmeber that

something like 80% of the

money

0:40:200:40:23

coming into agriculture in

Wales

0:40:230:40:26

comes from the European

Union.

0:40:260:40:28

It ehlps to provide for at least

16,000 families working the

land.

0:40:280:40:33

Just think if that money

should go, it will be very bad,

I think.

0:40:330:40:38

I'd hoped that the cut could be changed

0:40:380:40:42

in order to make it smaller,

0:40:420:40:46

so there's a possibility of adapting to it.

0:40:460:40:49

I'm not going to talk about diversification and Pillar 2.

0:40:490:40:52

At the end of the day a

farmer's job is to get the best

meat.

0:40:520:40:57

That's what he does and he does an excellent job.

0:40:570:41:01

If we'd lose these little farms, Wales itself would lose out

0:41:010:41:06

not only the local economies.

0:41:060:41:08

I remember when foot and mouth arrived,

0:41:080:41:13

there were some shoppers, I won't say where,

0:41:130:41:16

who always complained I

spoke us for farmers and not

them.

0:41:160:41:20

Foot and mouth arrived here

and the shop's takings were

down.

0:41:200:41:24

I saw him later and he said, "I see what you mean."

0:41:240:41:27

The farmer spends money

locally.

0:41:280:41:30

But Alun Davies's point is he wants to make the farmer

0:41:300:41:34

self-sufficient without all the grants

0:41:340:41:38

like New Zealand, for example.

0:41:380:41:41

That's a lovely ideal, Dewi.

0:41:410:41:43

Shouldn't we aim for it?

0:41:430:41:45

We've been aiming for it for the last 50 years.

0:41:450:41:48

The question is can you do it

on the worldwide price of

meat?

0:41:480:41:53

You can't.

0:41:530:41:55

You can't do it, that's the

problem.

0:41:550:41:58

Let's turn to some farmers.

0:41:580:42:00

David, you asked the question.

0:42:000:42:01

In this area, it's very mountainous and difficult

0:42:010:42:04

without all this recent

weather.

0:42:050:42:07

As Elfyn said, we're part of a community, we spend locally.

0:42:090:42:14

Money stays in the area.

0:42:140:42:17

Do you accept Alun Davies's idea?

0:42:170:42:19

He's trying to take you off these grants.

0:42:190:42:23

The problem is we're

competing with other

countries

0:42:230:42:26

who receive these grants.

0:42:260:42:27

They have an advantage.

0:42:270:42:29

Fine, if he's taking money away from us

0:42:290:42:33

but the produce we sell, it has to double in price.

0:42:330:42:37

Will the public pay more for their food? I don't think so.

0:42:370:42:41

The money won't disappear. He's putting it towards development.

0:42:410:42:45

But he hasn't said what.

0:42:450:42:47

He hasn't said what.

0:42:470:42:49

I don't know if the panel know what he's going to do.

0:42:500:42:53

Gwynedd Watkin on behalf of the FUW.

0:42:530:42:55

We have to remember what

the public want at the end of

the day.

0:42:560:42:59

You can go down the route of

New Zealand and have ranch

farming

0:42:590:43:03

where if a sheep gets into difficulty with a lamb

0:43:030:43:05

they don't call a vet.

0:43:050:43:07

They let the sheep die where

it is.

0:43:070:43:09

Do you want farms here to be

so big so they can be

competitive?

0:43:090:43:14

It won't happen because

you've got people like the

RSPCA

0:43:140:43:18

and other environmentalists who lobby so hard

0:43:180:43:21

compared to countries without grants.

0:43:210:43:23

But do you accept his principle?

0:43:230:43:26

In the long term, it would be nice to do without grants?

0:43:260:43:29

Your'e a business like any other business.

0:43:290:43:31

But at the end of the day...

But you're treated differently.

0:43:320:43:35

Why can't we secure a low price for food for the public,

0:43:350:43:40

that's what the money's for, to keep prices down.

0:43:400:43:44

Right. Guto Bebb.

0:43:440:43:46

I think that it is unfortunate.

0:43:460:43:49

You could discuss the

common agriculture policy

forever.

0:43:490:43:54

This is the situation that

exists,

0:43:540:43:57

and what we've seen of the

policies passed by Alun

Davies,

0:43:570:44:02

is that farmers are going to be disadvantaged in Wales,

0:44:020:44:07

comparable with famers in England perhaps.

0:44:070:44:10

But they'll be at a disadvantage compared with

0:44:100:44:12

other European countries.

0:44:120:44:14

If we're spending 40% of EU funding on agriculture

0:44:140:44:16

there's a question whether that's wise.

0:44:160:44:19

But if we are spending 40%,

0:44:190:44:21

we should have a food supply that's safe,

0:44:210:44:23

a food supply of a high

standard, and one that's

affordable.

0:44:230:44:27

What's painful about the path we're following is

0:44:270:44:30

Europe was over-producing significantly,

0:44:300:44:34

and now we're in a place

where there is a scarcity of

food,

0:44:340:44:37

and Europe are going in the

opposite direction and are

paying people

0:44:370:44:41

not to produce. I do think there is a basic problem

0:44:410:44:44

with the fact we're asking farmers not to farm.

0:44:440:44:47

The fact we're asking farmers

not to supply us with enough

food

0:44:470:44:52

is terrible.

0:44:520:44:54

There are basic questions

about what Europe are trying

to create.

0:44:540:44:58

Just to finish...

Isn't there an irony here?

0:44:580:45:01

You're usually agianst European money but here you're keen to have it.

0:45:010:45:05

If we create a situation where

there are 27 countries in

Europe

0:45:050:45:10

and they accept this money,

we have to have the same

situation in Wales.

0:45:100:45:15

That's what's fair.

0:45:150:45:17

If Wales is different from the other countries it isn't fair.

0:45:170:45:20

You usually argue to having business standing on their own two feet.

0:45:200:45:24

You can only have that where there is a level playing field.

0:45:240:45:29

Wales is different because 70% is in the old LFA.

0:45:290:45:34

An acre of high ground and

an acre of low ground isn't the

same.

0:45:340:45:37

I accept that.

0:45:370:45:39

Wales is different because so many acres are quite barren.

0:45:390:45:44

One short point.

0:45:440:45:46

The only point I want to make

is

0:45:470:45:49

Wales has moved faster

towards the environmental

matters

0:45:490:45:53

compared to other parts of

Europe.

0:45:530:45:54

We are moving faster again now so this hits farmers twice.

0:45:550:45:59

Mair Edwards.

0:45:590:46:00

I'm not a farmer of a daughter of a farmer.

0:46:000:46:03

I don't always understand agriculture.

0:46:030:46:05

What strikes me as being odd at times is

0:46:050:46:08

there are so many subsidies going into one sector.

0:46:080:46:12

Getting the balance between boosting a business

0:46:120:46:18

in order to maintain

communities

0:46:180:46:20

because agriculture is so important to our communities,

0:46:210:46:24

that's a difficult balance to get right.

0:46:240:46:28

There is sometimes a danger of over-depending

0:46:280:46:33

on subsidies coming from

elsewhere.

0:46:330:46:37

When you look at farmers who do succeed

0:46:390:46:42

in being able to live with fewer subsidies

0:46:420:46:47

you see they've gone for

quality

0:46:470:46:49

and they can increase their price for what they get for it.

0:46:490:46:52

But that doesn't put enough food on people's plates.

0:46:520:46:58

I think there's a tension between those two things.

0:46:580:47:02

I must confess I don't know what the answer is.

0:47:020:47:05

But I do sympthise with

farmers who feel they're

losing out.

0:47:050:47:09

But I think that needs to be restructured.

0:47:090:47:14

If agriculture is so important to the community

0:47:150:47:18

what hope do young farmers

like me have to try for a

council farm?

0:47:180:47:22

I have to put in a tender and compete with older people

0:47:220:47:27

who has more in their pocket than somebody like me.

0:47:270:47:30

Yet, they still put it out to tender.

0:47:300:47:32

I think it should be down to interviews.

0:47:320:47:35

You're disheartened?

Yes.

0:47:350:47:37

Bethan in the front row.

0:47:370:47:39

Young people don't want to

farm because they don't see a

profit.

0:47:400:47:45

How do you solve that?

0:47:450:47:49

In the future the older farmers won't be around for ever.

0:47:490:47:53

There won't be anyone left to

farm.

0:47:530:47:56

Fair point. How about you?

0:47:560:47:57

I'm in favour of giving money to farmers

0:47:570:48:01

right across Britain who farm the highlands

0:48:010:48:06

to allow them to let the land back to its natural state.

0:48:060:48:12

So when we do have torrential

rain

0:48:120:48:16

the water is absorbed

somewhere.

0:48:160:48:19

Then we won't have flooding.

0:48:190:48:24

You're in favour of things going back to the wild?

Yes.

0:48:240:48:27

Another young farmer. Hang on, yes, you.

0:48:270:48:30

About the comment of too many old farmers,

0:48:300:48:34

they hold onto the farms

rather than letting younger

people take them.

0:48:340:48:38

They shold have a scheme

where young farmers get the

farms

0:48:380:48:42

for a few years to try and

succeed and se what they

can do.

0:48:420:48:46

Fine. Aled Roberts, you can have the last word.

0:48:470:48:50

The biggest problem we have is the blow to Welsh farmers

0:48:500:48:53

is worse than for any other

country in Britain let alone in

Europe.

0:48:530:48:59

They're taking off 15% from

single farm payments in

Wales

0:48:590:49:02

but 1% in Italy.

0:49:030:49:04

That's what devolution is.

0:49:040:49:07

No, not devolution.

0:49:070:49:09

Following a different policy.

0:49:100:49:11

We have our own agriculture minister.

0:49:110:49:13

I'm not saying policies have to be the same in every country

0:49:130:49:16

but where's the sense that Welsh farmers

0:49:160:49:19

has 15% of their payment

removed

0:49:190:49:22

and Italian farmers have 1%?

0:49:220:49:24

That's it. Thank you to the people of the Ogwen Valley.

0:49:240:49:27

Thank you, panel, for your contributions.

0:49:270:49:29

Next week we'll be in Pontardawe.

0:49:290:49:32

Until then, goodbye.

0:49:320:49:34

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