23/01/2014 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel tonight,

financial expert and archaeologist, Dr Carol Bell,

two Assembly Members - the Labour Member for Llanelli, Keith Davies,

and Suzy Davies from the Conservatives,

and from Swansea University's law department, Prof. R Gwynedd Parry.

Give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn,

the S4C discussion programme

which has been travelling around Wales for 21 years.

It's a place we visit almost every year

and tonight we're among the people of the Swansea Valley

in the Pontardawe Leisure Centre.

We have an hour to discuss the issues of the day.

Have you guessed what we'll be covering tonight?

A word of warning to the people of Anglesey -

next we'll be in Llangefni and you're welcome to join us.

That's enough from me. It's time to turn to the first question.

Cynthia Dodd at the back. Cynthia, what's your question?

Does the panel believe local government reorganisation will

lead to better services for the public?

Thank you, Cynthia.

Does the panel believe local government reorganisation will

lead to better public services?

I'll start with you, Keith.

Definitely.

In 1996, the Conservatives decided they wanted to get rid

of district and county councils and have one council instead.

In England, they decided no council should serve a population

of fewer than 300,000.

In Wales, we only have one council with more than 300,000 residents.

We have many small councils

and the problem they have is that they can't appoint enough experts.

Things happen from time to time.

If you want to solve a problem, you have to have the experts.

Our small councils, like Merthyr, Blaenau Gwent and Ceredigion,

they are too small to have that expertise.

Reorganisation will cost. Are you prepared to pay?

The Williams Commission said on Monday it would cost £100,000...

The Local Government Association says it could be £200,000,

£300,000 or £400,000.

If you say £200,000,

Williams also say it will save £80,000 a year.

-Suzy Davies.

-I think that the most important thing here is services.

That's what we need to consider.

It's not clear how this will help or how it will hinder services.

I'm sceptical whether making councils bigger will work.

It might work, we don't know.

There's a danger that decisions will be made

further away from the people.

That's a cause for concern.

We have a lot to consider with this report.

You don't believe merging councils will lead to better services

as this report suggests?

We don't know. There's a question of cost as well.

Williams think it will.

It's not clear from the report how much it will cost.

I've got an open mind.

You didn't answer that question, Keith Davies.

Will the services improve if we merge councils?

Suzy Davies says bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

Perhaps I should give you examples. I started in Mid Glamorgan.

Four of the new counties would make up Mid Glamorgan.

I moved to Carmarthenshire.

We asked Ceredigion whether we could work together.

That's what will come form the commission.

The councils have failed to work together

and this will make sure that services will be better.

The public will get a better service.

So you'd be happy to see 15,000 people lose their jobs?

We're not certain of that.

That's just one suggestion that was made.

If we're talking about jobs and wages,

look how much the chief executives are earning

and the heads of departments across the councils.

We have 22 treasurers, 22 social services, and so on.

They are all earning close to £200,000.

Suzy Davies, answer that point.

These enormous salaries and the duplication of jobs.

Nobody wants to see the top officials earning so much

when people at the bottom earn so little.

Particularly these days.

What's important is the point about co-operation

and that co-operation between councils isn't working voluntarily.

The Welsh Government chose that agenda,

the co-operation,

but it's not clear how they've been assisting councils.

To understand this properly,

the commission hoped work would start on this by Easter.

Will your party oppose the mergers?

It's not going to happen before Easter, as they hope it will.

No, but work could start by Easter.

Work on what? It's not clear what the First Minister wants.

He has asked councils to co-operate but what is he looking out for?

Gwynedd Parry.

I welcome this report in principal.

We should reorganise local government.

Since the last reorganisation,

I believe we have seen many failures,

especially in education in many of the small councils.

We have plenty of evidence to show that the model has failed.

The situation on Anglesey and in other councils has been terrible.

As someone raised in the old Gwynedd,

it was a solid council in many ways and did a lot of good things,

especially in Welsh-medium education.

So you believe bigger means better education?

If you create something larger,

then you have more opportunity to get better expertise,

rather than having a lack of resources and funding,

where you can't sustain a high quality service.

I'd be happy. The paradox is, when they created the smaller councils,

they also created the Welsh Assembly as another level of government.

I think there's too much governance across Wales.

We need a way of creating something

more suitable for our needs today.

Two in favour. What about you, Carol Bell?

I'm also in favour. The point on expertise is a very important one.

I have direct experience

in the education sector.

Services have been shared out

to find the most effective solutions.

I'll give you an example - the Archaeological School in Athens.

There's one in Rome, Jerusalem, Amman and Ankara,

and they all have to do their accounts.

They all have someone to keep the accounts locally,

but then nobody will have the expertise

to take it to the Charities Commission.

I said five years ago

-that we need one man to run all this in London.

-Or woman.

It was a man in the end.

Man or woman, you're quite right.

It took a long time to put this point across

and for it to be accepted by others.

But now it all works like clock work.

We have managed to save a fortune and everyone is happy.

So more is better?

I think more is better.

The point about expertise is the important thing.

When there is a problem, you have to find the expertise

and if you are a larger authority,

you have more opportunities to find that expertise.

I want one answer from Keith Davies,

as someone who used to be a councillor in Carmarthenshire.

Would you be prepared to see the old Dyfed return?

Yes, I would be happy with that.

That's what I said earlier.

When I went down to Carmarthenshire in the 1990s,

Dyfed was separated, but we asked Ceredigion and they agreed with us.

The education departments of Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire

worked together and we wanted to appoint jointly.

-And that worked?

-Yes.

Right, let's take this to the audience.

Cynthia, you asked the question. How would you respond?

Time will tell whether the services improve,

but I know that at the moment,

speaking as someone from a community in the Swansea Valley,

we feel we are not getting fair play.

When Neath Port Talbot was created,

there was no mention of the Swansea Valley in the name,

-although it was suggested.

-And the name's important to you?

Yes, it is.

I feel we are a long way from Neath Port Talbot

and we are not considered in decision-making.

Down in Neath Prot Talbot.

If that's true,

what will happen with Bridgend, which is even further away?

Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen and Cwmgors will be even further than us.

If we are Swansea Valley communities,

I believe it would be more natural for us to join with Swansea.

That's also being considered. Thank you, Cynthia.

Lewis Aaron at the back.

It was ironic to hear Suzy Davies say she was worried

about decision-making being taken further away

when her party was opposed to devolution to start with.

That's one point.

With these changes,

it's important that we have fewer senior officials paid high wages.

Will this lead to a situation

where senior officials are paid compensation,

as we've seen at the BBC, when they retire.

It's important that the savings are passed down to the people

and they benefit.

But if people lose their jobs, they should be compensated, should they?

If you cut at the top, you can reinvest at the bottom.

Lyn Griffiths.

Speaking from experience, unlike the panel, perhaps,

I have seen two reorganisations.

From the old Carmarthenshire to Dyfed

and from Dyfed to the new Carmarthenshire.

I have to say that Dyfed was the better authority out of all of them.

We've mentioned making savings.

At the moment, you have three chief executives,

three county officials, three head of...

If I may step in, Lyn.

There were smaller councils as well.

There were lower level councils and they had officials.

Yes, but...

..what I saw in Dyfed,

many of the officials were employed by the next councils,

but I thought that the situation then was much more professional.

Thank you, Lyn. Matthew Evans, the headteacher of Ystalyfera.

22 is too many in a small country like Wales.

Monmouthshire has four high schools and a director of education.

There is room for improvement.

Some smaller councils and some around here

haven't taken Welsh medium education seriously

and we've heard about that this week.

There's a danger that the Assembly could discuss this

for months and months.

We need a political consensus and some leadership.

I agree with the First Minister.

This is the best option. We should be building on this.

It needs to make sense to our pupils, young people

and the people of Wales.

Would it make a difference to you as a headmaster...

Cynthia was worried about Bridgend, compared to the current situation?

There are good points for both options.

But we can't wait another year for another report

with some general consensus that we can't appoint into jobs

but I accept the point that we do not have the expertise.

I'm concern that we'll appoint people in the short-term

and then we'll have to make them redundant and pay compensation.

-We need to reach a decision.

-Exactly.

-Over here. Del Morgan.

The whole discussion has been about local government reorganisation.

Services are the most important thing, as the question said.

We're all interested in what the county will be called...

The name is important to you?

The name will be important.

But the Williams Commission Report is supposed to look at

the entire public sector.

The report says that reorganisation itself is not enough.

We'll have to look further

into health services, social care

local government as a whole, and partnerships and so on.

That's where the answer is.

Councillor Alun Llewelyn.

A lot of questions have not been answered in this report,

as Del suggested.

-Have you read it all?

-I have not read it all.

-It's quite a large report.

-The summary is 100 pages!

Suzy Davies referred to the democratic situation.

That reminds us that the Conservatives created the system

during the 1990s as a way of undermining devolution.

One of the effects was that the changes in 1995 and 1996

weren't financed properly.

We have suffered ever since.

Will we get it right this time?

Wouldn't it be better just to leave things?

I think everyone accepts that some sort of change is inevitable,

but the Welsh Government needs to support the changes properly.

We have to learn the lessons from the 1990s,

and make sure we have the resources.

Otherwise, the services will continue to suffer.

-It will undermine the changes.

-Let's take this to the lowest level.

Do you believe that refuse collection will be better off?

I don't think we will see much change at that level,

but with certain aspects which are under pressure,

such as social care and education, we should see improvements.

Thank you. Aeron Richards.

It seems that we are looking more at making savings

than improving services.

-We need to save money.

-Yes, but services are even more important.

We need a balance.

I think that every community has its own champions.

Those champions know the area,

they know the people and they know what needs to be done.

-We may lose out on that.

-Because it would move further away?

Yes, because the decision-making would take place further away.

-Hywel Richards.

-The Swansea Valley is one valley.

It stretches from Bwlch above Craig-y-Nos

down to Swansea Bay and the Mumbles.

The same geology, the same geography, the same people,

the same community and history, but we are part of four counties.

The wife and I have come from Carmarthenshire up the road,

through Powys and we're in Neath Port Talbot.

A mile down the road you're in the city of Swansea.

There must be people here from four counties.

Carmarthenshire, Powys, Neath Port Talbot and Swansea.

You only need one. Planning - the Swansea Valley as one unit.

There we are.

-A short comment from you.

-Balance is what is needed.

If there are savings being made in the economy and specialisation in the

larger unit...but moving the services further from the people is a concern.

We need to get that balance.

I won't be coming back to the panellists on that.

Let's move on to the next question.

Over to Bill Hughes for our second question.

Should the head of the Urdd have accepted an MBE from the government.

Thank you, Bill. Should the head of the Urdd have accepted an MBE?

Gwynedd Parry?

Well, the question reminds me of a sonnet by T H Parry Williams.

He said, "you can give your shilling to any party that says it will

"Wales should be united." But he says be careful not to name the language.

I don't think the language is such a dangerous topic

but I am sure royalty is very dangerous to discuss.

My response is to say that it is a personal matter

whether one receives or declines one of these honours.

The honour is for the individual.

I accept that some individuals might say it reflects

well on the institution that they are a part of and so on,

but it is up to the individual.

But when that individual is head of the Urdd,

he is more than an individual, surely?

Obviously there is a connection but nobody in the Urdd were ever

asked to sanction the award and so they are not a part of it either.

There is some kind of tension between the individual

and the institutions he is connected to.

But it is a matter for the individual in the end.

So has the criticism been unfair?

The problem is that the criticism is political

and perhaps a little old-fashioned as well,

because the political context has changed completely.

I was listening to a programme the other day which referred to 1969.

The world has completely changed.

In Wales, the context is completely different.

So if the context is so different, why accept the honour?

That is a matter for the individual.

What is important to remember is that this argument, that this

is a sign of an institutional state of mind, I do not accept that.

Carol Bell. Was Efa Gruffudd Jones right to accept this honour?

I completely agree. This is a matter for him.

It is a matter for the individual whether you accept an honour.

-It is nothing to do with anybody else.

-And that's it?

-That's it.

Despite the fact that she is the head of the Urdd?

-You don't see a difference?

-I think it is a matter for the individual.

I'm sure there is nothing in her contract that says

she is not allowed to accept any kind of award from the Queen.

Keith Davies?

I think this is very difficult

because the decision is the individual's.

But possibly, because of the Urdd, it is difficult,

not because of her job.

What I have against these honours is that people are awarded them

because of their jobs.

I don't think they deserve them because of their jobs.

They should have done something extra

and I am glad to see that Carwyn Jones is going to do something

in Wales so that we don't have to approach the royal family.

In the end, the Queen has nothing to do with that.

The decision is made by civil servants but what I have

against them is that people are getting them because of their jobs.

They are paid to do their jobs.

-If you were offered an MBE, Keith, what would be the answer?

-Why?

Because of your hard work over so many years.

But it depends what the work is.

-You know...

-But you have doubts about the system?

-Certainly.

Some people are given the award because of their jobs

-and they do not deserve it.

-Suzy?

Of course, she has been given the award

because of her services to children and her job helps with that

but personally, I don't see the problem.

She has done her job and done more than was expected of her.

But she was paid for it as Keith said.

But she has been very successful and she's not the only one

to be acknowledged for her work because she is in a public position.

She has done a good job for our children

and I am more than happy for her to receive the award.

So three of you are certain that she is right,

and Keith is sitting on the fence? Let's turn to the audience.

Is there any strong opinion?

The question we should be asking is why would somebody who leads

a Welsh national institution would want to accept such

an honour from the Queen? That is the question.

Personally, I wouldn't accept such a thing from the Queen.

I am glad that we are getting some kind of honours

from the Welsh Government, because somebody who works in Wales...

the important thing is what do the people of Wales thinks,

-not what the royalty thinks.

-But that is the current system.

We do live in the British state

and these are the awards that are offered.

But it is time that the Assembly says that...

It is the people that should decide, not somebody in London.

So you would refuse the MBE but accept a St David's honour,

if it were offered? Right.

I have a crystal ball at home and I look into the crystal

ball to see what kind of gongs will be awarded by the Assembly.

I can tell you that Labour will be getting them all!

Well, we'll see about that. There was a suggestion here?

I find it hard to believe that somebody leading a national

institution that promotes the Welsh language would kowtow to the

Queen in Buckingham Palace. It's very difficult.

You find that difficult to believe. Your hand was up.

I feel that any honour should not be political in any way.

-You feel that this is political?

-Yes.

-Somebody from Bryntawe school.

I think the number of people who have supported the Urdd over

the years are disappointed.

She was awarded the honour because she managed the Urdd

and I think people feel "We don't want to accept this honour.

"We have supported the Urdd over the years.

"Why should we accept this now?" I think...I'm not sure.

I think a lot of people are angry.

People were not consulted and she has...

But having said that, it is a personal honour,

as our friends on the panel said.

Yes, but people who have supported the Urdd are taking it

personally that she has done this herself

-because she is supposed to represent them.

-Bill, you asked the question.

-Where do you stand?

-I would never accept any kind of award like this.

I have been offered and refused it.

I don't want to, because I think everybody works hard

and I don't think...

Some people do more work than others but we would all like to be

treated the same. But I asked the question

because my cousin raised it in Prynhawn Da, as it happens.

I wanted to see what young people thought.

And exclusive for Pawb A'i Farn! Bill was offered one but refused.

-I refused.

-Lewis, your hand was up.

The question is, did she accept the MBE because of her own work or

because of the Urdd team's work?

The people who worked with her, going out on a daily basis

and working for the Urdd.

And it was given to her because she happened to be at the top.

Where is the acknowledgement for the people underneath her?

Bill Hughes agrees with you. There are various different opinions.

Thank you for your contributions. Time for a break.

Join us again in two minutes.

Welcome back.

We are having a very interesting hour in this week's Pawb A'i Farn.

But let's move on to our third question from Michael Williams.

This week, there were two stories about difficulties

concerning ambulance services leading to deaths.

Is there an answer to this kind of crisis,

which seems to happen regularly?

Thank you. Two important stories this week.

There were stories about difficulties

concerning the ambulance service leading to deaths.

Is there an answer to this kind of crisis,

which seems to be happening so regularly? Suzy Davis.

Of course, it is difficult to discuss this because of what has

happened with those two families who have lost relatives.

Unfortunately, I know there is an inquest,

but it is obvious that there is a question of what has

happened to the money during these last few years.

The Welsh Government had proposed to take a billion pounds

out of the system and of course they have changed their minds now.

They have listened to the Welsh Conservatives

and put more money back into the system

but that money is going to go towards primary health care.

There is a lot of strain on the ambulance service at the moment.

But it is important to this area because it will affect south Wales.

What is the answer? That is the question. More money?

Of course, that is part of it.

There is an ambulance service review at the moment

and it will be worth seeing what it says.

But paramedics who I have talked to in the past

say that what is happening now, or rather, not happening,

I can see how disheartening it must be for the paramedics who

receive a call from a patient and they cannot arrive in time.

There is a question of distance

and also of how to solve the problem of queues outside A&E departments.

That is a matter of money and doctors and beds.

So with more money, things would improve?

And the way the system works.

-We have lost one in every five beds in hospitals.

-Keith Davies.

The Health Minister is looking at the system and what he told us

in the Assembly a couple of months ago was that the ambulance is

doing two very different things.

They respond to patients who are going to hospital for operations

but they also respond to emergency calls

and he is saying that we have to remove the ambulance

service that is taking people for operations,

and hand over that responsibility to every Health Authority.

But to those that respond to 999 calls, he mentions two things.

That is to train those who are in the ambulance

and that there is also a national thing to make sure it works.

But part of the problem is that there are no beds available.

They are full of long-term patients who can't go out to community

hospitals which have either closed down or the beds have gone.

But they are working there.

The health minister was with us in Llanelli three weeks ago and there

is a home there where they can move out of hospitals but can't go home,

but they are going into homes and there are people in Carmarthenshire

working for the Health Service and the local authority.

They are working together to get people out of hospitals

and we should be looking at that all over Wales.

Does it mean spending more money?

Suzy said you had spent less and that was true for a while.

England was spending more.

Our priority is the Health Service because the Conservatives

wanted to take 20% out of education at the time.

Gwynedd Parry.

The basic question I am asking is,

when you think about this news about the problem with ambulances, put it

in its context - queues and waiting lists are getting longer and longer.

This week we heard that they are going to close the maternity

unit in Withybush Hospital.

Put it all in context and you ask the question,

is this the inheritance we have after 15 years of devolution?

You ask yourself the question,

who has been responsible for the health service for the last 15 years?

There is a fundamental question about how the health service in Wales

in its entirety, because this is just one example of something broader...

You are blaming Keith Davies's party.

I'm asking the Government what is the explanation for this situation.

It's because priorities in Wales are different.

-No, you have to consider as well...

-Well, it's true.

Specialists.

If you have to go, like I did, to Morriston Hospital

and go in there for a stint because of heart trouble,

there are 10 hospitals in West Wales feeding Morriston.

What Morriston has is specialists.

That's what happens with these little children.

But the unsatisfactory situation, according to Gwynedd Parry,

stems from the fact that we've had 15 years of Labour government in Cardiff Bay.

And I'm saying that we have the specialists that can ensure that those children are born safely.

But not everyone in Wales can get to them.

The Health Minister said this week, yesterday or the day before,

that the air ambulance would take them from Withybush if there are big problems there.

You have an answer for everything.

There is some dissatisfaction in the audience.

Michael, you asked the question. Come on.

You said, Dewi, that one problem is the fact that ambulances wait

outside the hospital with patients in them because patients

in the hospital have to stay after receiving treatment.

What is the answer to that problem?

We have to move patients out into smaller hospitals and into maternity homes.

John Evans in the back.

There is a lot of talk about the financial problems we have

and I think this goes back to the Barnett Formula. Certainly.

Carwyn Jones has been saying that Wales has lost millions of pounds

and that would help the NHS, the education sector and everything else.

But where was the Labour Party back in the '90s?

Gordon Brown was at the helm and he made sure that Scotland was not going to lose out.

So Wales has lost out.

That is why we have all these financial problems in Wales.

If they had re-formed the Barnett Formula,

things would be so much better in Wales now.

All right. So that is to blame. That takes us back years.

Howard Davies, 15 years of Labour government is being blamed here.

We always hear that, don't we?

At the end of the day, if local GPs went out after 6.00pm at night and on weekends,

half the ambulances would not have the pressure put on them

and accident and emergency departments in hospitals would not be as full as they are now.

When the GPs went out before the new contract came in,

we didn't have this problem.

I accept the answer and it's an interesting answer but who brought that new contract in?

-We have to agree. We brought it in.

-Tony Blair's government.

Yes. But at the end of the day, we have to realise

that every government does things which aren't right.

I accept that and I'm telling you that we were not right at that time.

But now we have to say that we are seeing what has happened,

we can see that it's not working and it has to be changed.

-So we have to go back. So you accept that mistakes were made?

-Yes.

-Let's see if Keith Davies agrees. Was it a mistake?

-Yes. Definitely.

We don't often have people apologising on this programme.

-Yes, but doctors have new contracts now.

-Where was that hand up?

-Rebecca, once again.

-The state of the NHS at the moment is disgraceful.

We don't get any new policies from the Welsh Government,

the Labour government.

I agree that we should have more people in our smaller hospitals.

Health boards are just closing smaller hospitals.

Nobody can go there. They are all closed.

The ambulances are queueing up.

People are dying and the Labour Government does nothing.

Keith Davies will get the opportunity to answer. Del Morgan?

More money is needed but that is a very difficult point.

-So you accept the money is not available?

-It won't be for a while.

But we need better management and the Labour Government has to take the lead.

We are talking about bringing people in in an air ambulance.

If people like Rhys Meirion hadn't walked from the south to the north

and thousands of people had not contributed, there would not be an air ambulance.

A fair point. Lewis Aaron in the back.

What disappoints me more than anything

is that all the opposition parties point the finger all the time.

What about cooperating to answer the problem? Let's work together. Every party.

But if they disagree, they are not going to cooperate, are they?

But the thing is, pointing the finger just causes damage.

We need some kind of consensus, a way forward together.

We shouldn't be pointing the finger. We should be working together.

John Evans?

I just wanted to talk about a personal experience I had in the hospital recently.

I was in hospital at the beginning of the month.

I was in a ward in Neath Port Talbot Hospital.

There were six of us there at the start.

Four went out and there were two of us left.

Me and another man in the corner.

He had come from Morriston Hospital to receive treatment

and he was waiting to go back to Morriston Hospital.

He had a nurse keeping him company, as she has to.

And of course, what happened, the nurse phoned up

and said he'd had the treatment and asked when they ambulance was coming to collect him.

It was 2.00pm in the afternoon at that time.

They said, we can't come before 8.00pm.

The nurse had to go home and of course,

this man was lying in bed and I was in the opposite bed.

The next thing, 8.00pm, 9.00pm, 10.00pm, 11.00pm,

-12.00am, 1.00am, 2.00am...

-This is a short story!

I woke up at 2:30am and the ambulance came to wake the man

to take him back to Morriston Hospital.

I thought it was a disgraceful situation.

We're glad you are here with us tonight to tell us the story.

Carol Bell?

A lot of things could be a lot better

but I think it's very important for everyone

to try and work out how to create priorities to answer 999.

Not wait for committees, we're terrible in Wales for committees.

We need experts now to decide how they can reform the system

and decide how they are going to react to the 999 calls.

Then, hopefully, the same kind of things won't happen again.

Keith Davis, you have an opportunity now to answer some of these

points which were very critical of the Labour Government.

I can tell you now, if you look at what people

are generally saying about the health service in Wales, it's very good.

98% of people think they've received very good treatment.

They are talking about their personal circumstances

but when they look at the service in its entirety,

with then hear the kind of stories we heard from John Evans.

Yes and that is why they are looking at the ambulance service to try and do something about it.

But as Carol said, we have to ensure that the people

who need emergency treatment can go in immediately and not wait outside.

Because that is where we started, people having to wait outside in ambulances

We have to do something about that.

Thank you very much. It is time for us to take a short break.

Join us again in two minutes when we will be talking about rugby.

Join us again in Pontardawe in two minutes.

Welcome back. It's nice to have your company on this Thursday evening.

We are in Pontardawe.

Let's move on to a question that is as timely as it could be from Euros Morgan.

This afternoon, it was announced that Leigh Halfpenny

is the latest rugby player to join the Welsh exodus to France.

What does this say about the state of the game in Wales?

Euros is referring to he main sports story of the day.

Leigh Halfpenny is the latest rugby player to join the Welsh exodus to France.

What does this say about the state of the game in Wales?

As a big supporter, Carol, what is your opinion on this?

I think we can go straight to the answer.

What it says about the state of rugby in Wales

is that not enough people go and watch matches live in the grounds.

That's the reason they can pay in France.

-I was watching Clermont play a club from Paris...

-Racing.

-Yes.

Last Saturday. The place was full.

The place was full. How often do our clubs get support like that?

That's why they can pay. The answer is very simple.

The answer is simple but take it a step further. Why don't people go and watch?

That is a very interesting question because, of course,

we support the international team and we all turn up to watch.

But on a wet Friday night,

how many of us are willing to go out and watch the teams?

Something has happened and I have a theory about it.

Our relationship with the clubs is not as close as it used to be.

So this new system does not appeal.

My father played for Neath.

When you merge Neath and Swansea to create the Ospreys,

those two clubs were completely different.

There may as well be a continent missing

somewhere outside Briton Ferry between the two places!

So you think it was a mistake?

We are where we are and there's also a civil war

going on between the regions and the union at the moment.

That is a factor but I don't think that is the most important thing.

I think the most important thing is that these boys can only play for certain number of years

and they have to think about their own futures and it is their personal choice to go

and earn a lot of money in France in order to secure their futures.

Fair enough. Keith Davies, what is the problem and what is the answer?

First of all, it's obvious that Welsh rugby players are among

the best in the world and that is why they are going to France.

The problem we have, I disagree with Carol here,

because the problem we have is in France

and England big companies invest money into the rugby clubs.

Michelin back Clermont.

One boy is leaving the Scarlets, I won't name him,

but he was offered £250,000 to stay with the Scarlets

but Clermont trebled it.

Why aren't we naming him?

-We all know who he is. Who is the best in the world?

-Jonathan Davies.

Yes. The best player in the world.

I was talking to Gareth Edwards about this last week.

He was in the Assembly with us.

I was telling him that my personal opinion is that the Welsh Rugby Union,

last year and the year before, made a profit of over £60 million.

I think they have to work with the regions.

-But it's not happening, is it?

-No.

But it needs to happen because that is what happens in New Zealand

and that is what happens in Ireland.

I think it is down to the Welsh Rugby Union.

The regions do not generate this huge money.

But Carol's point is right as well, isn't it?

It doesn't change the fact that to be sustainable

people have to go and watch them live.

But maybe the crowd isn't there.

We're talking about Llanelli and that is a small town compared to somewhere like Paris.

Come on, audience. Arwel Michael?

About people going to watch games on weekends,

the quality of the play has been dreadful.

It is amazing that our national team is doing so well.

I watch the games and see how poorly they are playing these days

compared to Ireland, and the teams in Ireland,

and it is embarrassing to see the way they are playing these days.

-But why is that?

-I don't know.

There is something sad in the game that we can have such a good

national team and yet the regions

and the Welsh Rugby Union are fighting against each other.

It reflects what we're like as a nation.

We fight against each other and we don't work together.

A very fair point. There was another hand up there.

We have to remember that Wales is not the only country in this situation.

If you look at the Premier League,

most of the players come from foreign countries.

Here in Swansea with Swansea City, most of the players like Jonathan de Guzman and Michu

have moved from Europe to play here in Britain.

They come from countries like Spain,

which is world-famous for the standard of its football.

So I don't think the fact that a few players have moved from Wales

to play in Europe is a negative reflection on the standard.

And you don't think the game in Wales will deteriorate as a result?

No, because if you have been to the Millennium Stadium, it is jampacked.

At the moment, some would say. What about you in the front row?

I don't see too much of a problem myself.

To answer Euros' question, the answer is the regions do not

have enough money to compete in the professional world.

But I don't think we should worry too much

because as the last person said, in the Premier League,

people from all countries, Ukraine, Russia, play there,

but when it comes to the World Cup, their international teams are very strong.

If you think about rugby in Argentina.

I'm not sure how much rugby is played in Argentina but most of their best players play in Europe.

They are still the sixth or seventh best team in the world

and I think we can maintain our standard.

Who do you support?

My heart is with the Scarlets but my head is with the ospreys.

Right. There we are!

Very interesting. Euros, what about it?

-It is a bit of a mess.

-Yes, but I agree with Huw.

I am sure the teams will continue to succeed without these players,

but it's very difficult.

What about you?

The main reason they are moving is money.

They want a good future

because the money in Wales is not as high as it has been.

As a rugby player, I think it's the team that's important.

It's important they are together as a team and work together.

It's nothing to do with him moving. It is a matter for him. Nobody else.

And you in the front row?

I think it is a huge loss for the regions

but it's a chance for the young players to step in.

-They now have an opportunity to show their talent.

-Fair enough.

Euron Richards?

It is obvious that these people are going for the money.

But by going to these countries, their experience improves

and when they come back to play for Wales,

they should be better players.

The difference in Ireland is,

three of Ireland's players during the last few weeks,

Jamie Heaslip, Paul O'Connell and Sean O'Brien, have re-signed

and they have central contracts.

Do you see that as an answer for Wales?

It is part of the answer. There is no single answer. It's part of it.

We haven't got that in Wales

and the Welsh Rugby Union should have done it a while ago.

Matthew, you were eager to say something.

The point is, we should invest in schools and young people

and I would like to see some of that money,

that Keith was talking about, that the WRU is sitting on

invested in young people and in the future of Wales

instead of having a discussion about these big names.

Suzy and Gwynedd. Suzy first.

I just want to take up that point because rugby these days

is a career for the stars and it is not a matter of honour.

What is starting to worry me

is the spat that has started between the regions and the WRU.

It has been going on for quite a while.

I know that, but what kind of effect is it going to have on young

boys and girls who have an interest in rugby?

Almost half a billion goes into grassroots rugby

and I don't want it to be wasted.

Gwynedd Parry?

I am not an expert on this

but I've seen for myself the difference between the support

for the Swans at the Liberty Stadium and the support for the Ospreys.

So there is a cultural problem, as Carol suggested.

People don't turn up to support the clubs despite the fact

they flock to Cardiff for the international games.

I'm not quite sure what the reason is for that.

-Is it to do with the occasion and so on?

-I think it is.

Is it real love for the game or do people like the occasion and the culture?

We could go on for another hour on this subject.

We should have a special Pawb a'i Farn on rugby, don't you think?

Anyway, thank you for your company tonight and your contributions.

Next week, we will be in Llangefni. I hope you can join us then.

But for now, from Pontardawe, goodbye.