30/01/2014 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this evening,

the chair of Cymdeithas Yr Iaith, Robin Farrar,

the former Labour MP, Betty Williams,

Anglesey AM and Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on the economy,

Rhun ap Iorwerth,

and the GP Harri Pritchard, who was a star of the series Jabas.

Give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

We hope you can join us for the next hour on S4C.

I'm confident it will be a lively hour.

Audiences in Anglesey aren't shy or reserved.

We're broadcasting from Llangefni and people have come

from all over the island to Plas Arthur Leisure Centre.

We hope you're happy with the questions we've chosen.

Next Thursday, we'll be in Crymych

and the people of Pembrokeshire can have their say.

Then we'll be in Aberystwyth.

Don't forget our usual addresses to get in touch.

What is our first question? It comes from Peter Williams at the back.

What's your question?

Do the panel think Anglesey and Gwynedd

would be better off together and it would save money?

Excellent. The question about merging Gwynedd and Anglesey.

Would that save money? I'll start with you, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

There are some interesting ideas in this report

from the Williams Commission.

What's important to me and everyone in this room, I assume,

is that we consider carefully what the implications

of merging Anglesey and Gwynedd would be

for the people of Anglesey.

That means, if there's a suggestion this would save money

to allow us to provide better services,

we need to look at the figures to see where the money would be saved

and how we would benefit from that.

As a matter of principle,

I do feel that it was a mistake

to create 22 county councils in a country as small as Wales.

So it was a mistake to have Anglesey on its own?

It was a mistake to have Anglesey on its own back then?

We don't need to look at individual parts of Wales,

but as a total number of local authorities, it was too many,

and we need to look at that again.

But what we don't want to do is come back in another 20 years

because what is offered and, possibly, implemented now,

isn't sustainable in the long-term.

That's why we shouldn't rush to say "yes" or "no"

and we should look at the implications.

This is a commission launched by Labour.

They set the guidelines for the commission,

although there are cross-party members.

Labour have to give their response before we can decide

what we feel is right way forward as a party.

-So you're on the fence?

-There's no fence.

We don't have the information to make a decision.

The Williams Commission...

But if 22 councils are too many,

it stands to reason that you want to merge some of them.

If you look across Wales, Anglesey and Gwynedd tick many boxes

in terms of language, they're similar in many ways,

and it makes sense in many ways,

but we want better services and better value for money.

-Betty Williams.

-The purpose of local government is to serve the public.

That should be the priority for anyone making a decision on this.

I think the Williams Commission has done some excellent work.

I'm not related to Mr Williams, by the way.

But that's the priority.

I look back and, maybe I'm wrong...

Have any of you three ever been councillors?

I might be the only one with that experience.

-And that was the old Gwynedd.

-That was going to be my point.

Serving people isn't changing boundaries and changing names,

it's more than that.

In the end, it's important that the people who put themselves forward

to be councillors have a healthy attitude

and the right motives.

I don't like this Cabinet system because it's not democratic.

The council's backbenchers as they are now,

in Gwynedd and Anglesey, they don't have as much of a voice

and so they can't represent their constituencies.

When I was a member of the old Gwynedd Council in 1976,

we didn't get the big salaries councillors get these days

and that's what I mean when I talk about the motive of individuals.

But, in principle, you think it's a good idea.

Yes, because, at that time, you had five class councils.

-Did they work? Did the old Gwynedd work?

-Yes.

I had two hats. I was on both.

-But the old Gwynedd worked?

-I think it did.

In Anglesey, he people who say Anglesey would lose out,

at that time you had hard-working people like the late Handel Morgan

and Captain Alex Robinson.

-You're suggesting the standards have dropped?

-Alan Pritchard...

-I'm not saying that.

-You're suggesting we're not as good.

But it worked. You needed one director of education

so you had a education policies across a broad area,

not small areas.

I know we have councillors in the audience.

Their hands are in the air already.

-Aled Morris Jones.

-I think it would be a mistake.

When you look at the Williams Report,

you can see that it represents Wales as a whole, not small communities.

They want to create structures which are not close to the people.

Things are getting better on Anglesey

with many economic projects about to arrive

and the people of Anglesey should be making the decision.

-Gwynedd...

-But the suggestion is that Anglesey is too small.

But Gwynedd, from Amlwch to Aberdovey

would be almost 100 miles.

They're refusing to create the old Dyfed because it's too big

and it wouldn't work.

-Anglesey...

-It is an option.

But they won't put it forward.

Anglesey looks after its council houses, Gwynedd doesn't.

Council houses belong in the hands of the county council.

Where were the other hands? Yes.

Does making an area bigger mean you'll get better services?

Look at the health authority.

Look at the elderly, look at ambulances.

Look at energy companies.

They have been given too much space and freedom.

We want a closer relationship.

Did that work on Anglesey?

There were all kinds of problems. You had to call people in.

But you can go straight to the problem.

If you go on the phone, you end up talking to someone in India!

There are two hands up in the back row.

The young lady, first.

I'm very disappointed with your comments.

As Anglesey's youngest councillor,

what you just said on behalf of other councillors in Wales

would put young people off standing as councillors.

We've got fresh, young candidates in Anglesey

and I don't feel we get the chance to represent our country

and I'm very disappointed as a young mother, a young woman,

who put herself forward to be a fresh councillor

and you think I'm here for the money. I'm disappointed.

APPLAUSE

Thank you.

Will you answer the question, too? Gwynedd and Anglesey together?

Personally, on behalf of Anglesey,

I think it is important that we stay as Anglesey...

And you represent which party?

-Plaid Cymru.

-How about you?

Plaid Cymru. The truth is, no-one whether this will save money.

There's no evidence in the Williams Report.

But the residents of Anglesey will lose out

because the maths is simple.

I don't agree with Betty Williams.

You have 30 councillors on Anglesey, 75 in Gwynedd.

When decisions are made about sharing resources,

the large majority of resources will cross the Menai.

So you're both from Plaid Cymru

and you refuse to merge with a council run by Plaid Cymru.

The most important thing is what's best for the people of Anglesey.

That's why we were elected.

Those are the reasons I stood as a councillor.

The people of Anglesey are what's important.

Gareth Jones of Labour in the front here.

-Consider this for ten seconds...

-Just ten seconds? Is that all?

That's all we need.

We've been there before and it didn't work.

Anglesey got a raw deal.

You disagree with Betty Williams. It didn't work.

Betty was on the council but from what I remember,

and I worked for Gwynedd Council,

we got a raw deal.

What is this raw deal, then?

Well, from what I saw, everything was spent in Caernarfon

and nothing was coming to the island.

The people of Meirionnydd would say the same.

-They do.

-John Chorlton.

-They do say that.

They money went to the centre and the centre was Caernarfon.

We lost out.

I had the experience of being on Anglesey Council

and I worked for Gwynedd Council.

I worked for the Fire Service.

I started with a suit from Hepworth, but at Gwynedd I put it in the bin.

Honest. That's what happened.

They took all the money.

Gareth.

What's important, and they've started saying it,

is to work with other councils.

That's a good thing.

And I also think...

We've just spent a fortune on the multi-member wards election

but they haven't had a chance to prove themselves.

These farmers should remember what they did to small farms on Anglesey.

They stole the money to spend in Gwynedd on roads and so on.

What about people listening and watching Pawb a'i Farn tonight

who remember those problems,

has this small Anglesey worked?

Councillors and services are different things.

We're talking about services for the people

and what we've lost.

-One row back.

-Very interesting.

Would the gentleman who asked the question have asked the question

if he'd been elected?

That's a fair question. I'll come back to that.

The hand here.

Wait for the microphone.

Labour and Plaid agree with each other.

There are...

I'm not so sure. Betty Williams is in favour and Rhun hasn't decided.

There's an advantage for Plaid Cymru here,

with the restructuring, because it would be a stronger party.

If it merged with Gwynedd, that is.

But do the Plaid Cymru councillors and Labour, too,

but Plaid Cymru in particular,

from reading the Daily Post this morning,

would feel like small fish in a big pond if they merged with Gwynedd?

Good question.

Peter, you asked the question.

There's an accusation against you here.

If you'd been elected, you'd have a different view.

They duplicate a lot of things, like head of education.

Too many bosses.

Too much is spent on that. Alright.

It's common sense.

That would save money. Bob Parry.

May I refer to Llinos, the youngest councillor on Anglesey?

Young people would see Caernarfon as the headquarters

and it's too far away.

Betty said there's a good salary. It's not that high.

But you are looking for people to work all day.

If you want to travel from Conwy to Caernarfon,

you need an hour and a half.

You'll get people who are retired and young people won't apply.

And we have some good young people on Anglesey.

They wouldn't travel to Caernarfon?

No. As John Chorlton said, they stole money

and that's why payments have been in such a mess.

I think this man is right that Labour and Plaid Cymru agree.

On the island you are? Right.

You can have a second to think about that

while I talk to the other panellists. Robin Farrar.

We disagree with the way the Welsh Government is centralising

services more and more.

Councils have an important role to play.

They're meant to be democratic.

Important planning decisions are made.

It's important that people involved in those decisions

work with local people who understand local issues.

We think this is going in the wrong direction.

They should be strengthening the lowest level of democracy

so that we have councils town councils and community councils

which make decisions.

Wouldn't democracy lead to more bureaucracy?

No. No, it wouldn't.

I think the smallest councils

should have a voice in planning applications.

In terms of Gwynedd and Anglesey specifically,

it's a good thing that we're not talking about

one authority for North Wales.

That was being considered.

-Some are in favour of that.

-It was discussed.

That would be terrible for the Welsh language.

The language needs of this island are different to Wrexham and so on.

But not different from Gwynedd.

Well, that's what we're coming to.

If things go down this route

there are possible advantages.

If the political will and desire was there

to move towards a council for Anglesey,

-and it was part of Gwynedd or not...

-Doesn't sound like that tonight.

..that worked internally in the Welsh language,

because Gwynedd Council's internal language policy

-has been a strength.

-Dr Harry Pritchard.

Without being parochial, I've lived on Anglesey for 15 years

but I was born and raised in Gwynedd.

You'll be in favour then.

To the contrary. I oppose this totally.

The main reason for that is image and branding is very important

to these councils now.

If we were to merge, we'd have to rebrand, have a new image

and a lot of money will be spent on this.

The Williams Commission said it would cost around £100 million.

That's a lot of money.

But it will be £200 million when they finish.

-The councils think it will be 200.

-Exactly.

We're going to waste that money at a time we need it more than ever.

Fine, we're going to save money five or six years down the line,

we don't need it then, but today.

The people of Anglesey want the money now not in six years' time.

On top of that, I also believe

very strongly that resources should be shared.

What's going to happen if we merge? We'll be split into three areas.

Those areas are going to take more and more resources.

We're not going to save any money.

But as this gentleman said, there's too much doubling of resources.

Exactly. But what we need to do is,

there are many policies and plans that could be shared.

This already happens with Anglesey and Gwynedd

when it comes to planning.

I'm sure there are other policies that all these authorities

could cooperate to save money without having to rebrand

and without losing all that money.

You're against it. Audience, Trefor Lloyd Hughes.

You look at Betsi Cadwaladr.

What a mess.

The Ambulance Service is in a mess.

Colleges are in a mess.

Everything goes to one place.

We've been left with the mess.

Because they're too big?

Yes. When we left Anglesey and became Gwynedd before

we had excellent services.

The schools were in good condition.

Once we joined Gwynedd, and all respect to people in Gwynedd,

they gave all the money to schools in Gwynedd

to raise those standards and we'll go down.

Since then we've gone down.

We have good educational services on Anglesey

despite people saying to the contrary.

But in the end, the bigger it is the fewer problems.

I'll ask for a vote in a moment

and Betty and Rhun can have a sentence each to close this.

From my viewpoint what I've heard from the audience

has confirmed everything I've said.

Services and the type of services we get on Anglesey

is all important. It's too early to decide one way or the other.

Give me evidence why this would be a good idea.

If you listen to your constituents you'll say no.

We'll see with the vote. Betty?

-One example...

-Quickly.

-I've listened to a young woman

about being elected, but you feel you haven't accomplished anything.

This is the point I'm making, because of this cabinet system,

we need to get rid of this system to have true democracy

on Anglesey, Gwynedd and any other council.

-No, quickly.

-I'll give you one example.

Unless they have a Gwynedd and Clwyd as it used to be

you wouldn't have had Ysgol y Creuddyn.

Anti-Welsh councillors from Llandudno were working

as a group, and it wasn't for the support of people from Anglesey

and Meirionnydd and Dwyfor, the school wouldn't have been built.

We need to move on. There are other topics to be discussed.

But I'm holding a vote.

Firstly, who would be in favour of merging Anglesey and Gwynedd?

One! Two!

Three.

Well, for the television, let's see who's against.

The majority but some abstaining.

Excellent.

We certainly know what the Pawb a'i Farn audience thinks.

It's nice to have that opinion.

Join us again in Llangefni after the break.

Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Llangefni.

As I suggested, we're having a lively debate.

The next question's asked by Mari Ann Jones. What's your question?

Pylons are going to spoil the beautiful views on Anglesey.

Wouldn't the answer be not to build a second power station

in Wylfa?

Thank you. Pylons are going to spoil the beautiful views on Anglesey.

Wouldn't the answer be not to build a second power station in Wylfa?

When it comes to our panellists, Hari Pritchard lives closest to Wylfa.

I'm very fortunate. I live in Cemaes in a beautiful village.

I live about half a mile away from Wylfa.

I'm also a person who likes my computers.

I like to use my television and I like to use energy

just like everyone else here.

The problem with that is we have to get our energy from somewhere.

Wind energy has a role to play in that.

On Anglesey we already have wind turbines.

We also have Wylfa power station

which is coming to the end of its life.

The other option we have apart from nuclear is gas.

That gas from Eastern Europe, from countries like Ukraine

where there are currently huge problems.

Do we want to be dependent on countries like this

for our energy in the future?

As a country we have a very difficult decision

as to where we get the energy so we can continue to use computers,

to cook and for lighting.

We don't have much choice apart from going for nuclear energy.

As you said, you live half an hour away from the power station

and it doesn't worry you?

No. I've been there for 15 years

and I welcome a new Wylfa there as well.

The area of Anglesey needs it.

Our young people are leaving Anglesey,

they're going to universities.

They get their apprenticeships in Wylfa and go and work in Scotland.

Harri, you've had two minutes. What about the pylons?

If we are to be an energy island, the energy needs to be taken off

the island somehow.

Where I've been disappointed with this

is that the company that will move it,

the National Grid, has decided how they'll take energy off the island

before asking the people what they'd prefer.

That doesn't make sense. Here's your four options,

but by the way, this is the one we're going for.

That isn't fair at all.

But if you want Wylfa, won't you have to put up with the pylons too?

They're across Snowdonia.

Maybe that is the only option

but I think they have to be fair with the people of Anglesey

and offer them all the options, cost all the options

and give us a reason why they want to take it that way.

-Robin Farrar.

-When it comes to the pylons,

I agree, they won't be creating electricity

for the people of Anglesey in Wylfa

or even with the wind turbines. That's why the pylons are needed.

In that, the Westminster Government has the final say.

They should be investing in underwater cabling

if the electricity needs to be moved off the island.

But in terms of Wylfa,

the society's opinion has been clear,

nuclear power isn't needed.

Many countries are moving in another direction.

What's needed in the long-term on an island like this

is investing in jobs such as in green energy.

-That will develop further.

-But there are many wind turbines here.

Harri Pritchard says that's not enough.

Expertise needs to be created in that field.

More jobs in that area need to be created here.

But we need this energy, we need this energy

immediately. Your scheme will take time.

Who needs this energy now? Not the people of Anglesey.

We all need this energy now.

What are we going to do in the winter when it hits minus ten

and there isn't a breath of wind.

Where's our energy going to come from that night?

Yes, wind energy is important but we need some other type of energy.

If you can find another kind of energy that'll work in all weathers

and will be easy to get, great, we're all in favour of it.

But at the moment our options are very limited.

There are plenty of options.

We're not talking about wind energy but also energy from the sea

and solar energy.

We need to limit the amount of electricity that's being used.

These are world-wide matters.

We have to deal with them.

There isn't just one answer.

But you're definitely against it?

You're against the second power station?

This isn't why as Cymdeithas we've made a clear statement.

New developments with Wylfa

would have a negative effect on the island's communities,

on the language here.

The right type of developments, for example,

creating jobs on a smaller level,

more development but fewer...as is possible in the green sector,

would create the same amount of jobs

but wouldn't have that negative impact.

Rhun ap Iorwerth, does the language situation worry you?

You are in favour of the second station.

It's one of the matters, I feel, that hasn't been considered fully

by the local authority here on Anglesey.

My opinion on Wylfa is known.

Economic advantages can come from Wylfa.

We have to be less willing to tell any developer

that comes in, "Come in and do as you like"

without thinking about what's good for us as an island.

The language is one of them as well as the pylons.

I think it's important to disassociate both things.

Wylfa is one debate, the pylons is another.

It's one of those conditions where we on Anglesey

turn to the developers, the people making money from this

and say, we have our requests on Anglesey and one of them is

you can't erect pylons across Anglesey.

They do have to invest more in placing underwater cabling...

Are they going to listen?

They've already done it when it comes to the technology.

The National Grid would do it if the Westminster government tells them.

It's going to cost a lot more but do we care that it will cost more?

No. People right across Britain will benefit from this.

You're talking about a 60 year investment for 60 million people

so the cost would be minimal.

Betty Williams.

We were talking about Anglesey's positives earlier

and I believe Anglesey Councils backs a new Wylfa

if I've got my facts right.

Let's clear that up first.

As to the pylons, I totally agree

that they shouldn't be across the island or across the Strait.

In the long-term, I think it is a shame the consultation process

has ended, about 12 months ago,

and no comments have been published following that.

Can I just finish. It isn't a matter just for you on Anglesey.

It's of interest to people on the mainland.

It's a campaign for both sides.

We should be cooperating in this.

I know that Albert and Rhun are cooperating on this

to have a suitable answer.

We're not just talking about a new Wylfa here,

you have plans for the sea, plans for wind turbines.

We're talking about more than just Wylfa to carry the electricity.

The nature of the consultation is very important.

As Harri said, it's a consultation on different paths on Anglesey.

It isn't a consultation for placing cables under the sea.

Why didn't they consult on underwater cabling?

The confidential answer by someone in the National Grid was

if we'd asked people if that's what they wanted

they would have agreed it.

Sorry, I need to go back to the audience.

Robert Idris.

Thank you. I'm here on behalf of PAWB.

The points that Dr Harri made.

Firstly, everyone wants energy and need it all the time.

How will Wylfa produce that?

That won't happen for years and people need power now.

Let's go to Scotland where 40% of power comes from renweables.

A study by London's Imperial College says

if one third of houses in Britain get solar panels

they will produce 6% of Britain's energy.

There are several new ways of creating jobs.

In Scotland, they've added 5% to the thousands of jobs there already.

We haven't got a energy policy for Wales and I know Rhun wants

to see that happen.

We should have gone after this which is such a monster.

Are you worried that you've lost the debate?

It is going to happen.

I don't think we'll ever lose the argument.

We've got a government in Westminster

who has promised, for twice the price,

to build a power station in Hinckley.

Some of our members have been to Japan

and spoken to the mayor of Fukushima where 100,000 people...

What did he say?

He came from an area similar to Anglesey

where there was unemployment, no opportunities for young people

and they welcome it.

The answer now is, no.

You asked the question.

I totally agree with Robin Farrar.

There are other ways of creating electricity.

Yes, fine. John Idris Jones, you work as an Energy Officer for Anglesey.

With these different ways of creating electricity

as Dr Harri was saying, what's important is

we need energy for our way of life.

With Anglesey, what's important to me is

how can we use this way to create power

to bring economic prosperity to our county?

That will keep young people here.

Unfortunately, the jobs and so forth people are talking about

with wind turbines and sea power,

they don't bring in jobs, unfortunately.

What about the pylons?

If we want jobs

we need a connection between Wylfa and the pylons at sea.

When it comes to the pylons the Grid has failed to explain

why they've decided to go with the pylons.

We need a better explanation by the Grid for this.

Would you argue in favour of underwater cables?

I would question the Grid in detail.

What would the cost be? What would be the technical problems?

We haven't had a clear explanation in technical problems.

So you'd got that. Emlyn Richards in the front row.

I'm sure a record has been broken here tonight.

I've been to every Pawb a'i Farn right from the start.

This is the only time

when everyone has been totally in agreement.

That agreement is about protecting Anglesey.

We need to protect the island from Gwynedd in this instance.

Can I ask you kindly to protect the island

in another direction?

They're not agreed in this topic.

As you talk about your Wylfa B,

but it will be the same Wylfa.

It will have created radioactive waste

that will be too hot to bury for 150 years.

We haven't found the cemetery or the grave so far.

Can I tonight as the people of Anglesey

and ask seriously,

if you are to protect this dear little island,

protect it in that.

Thank you, Emlyn Richards. Applause there.

The audience enjoyed that lecture.

How about you?

It's a shame these two things are connected.

I'm sure we've had enough discussion on Wylfa.

The most important point for us at the moment,

and we in Llanfair and on the other side of the Menai,

have been meeting about this.

We are united.

We've stayed out of the argument whether we're in favour of Wylfa

or not. We have referred directly towards the pylons.

This what I'm concerned about, you're talking about

what the National Grid is doing.

That question is being asked and then thrown back.

It was thrown back after Gill Durbas asked the First Minister

the same thing. If you're not in favour of Wylfa

you're against these pylons?

They connect both things together.

The question asked connected it.

We're going to be like Sweden, we're going to have these on the Menai

but what about the rest of Anglesey?

John Rowlands?

it seems likely that 10% of Britain's energy

will come across north Wales with these developments.

We have to remember that this energy is low carbon energy.

So we're making a huge contribution to Britain's energy.

There are plans to place wires from Scotland to Merseyside

under the sea. There are developments in Ireland.

It is completely possible if they look at the technical side of it.

It already happens in other places in the world

so we don't have to accept what the National Grid says.

We've had a very good meeting last week

to lead the campaign to oppose the pylons.

What about the new Wylfa, as an intended Plaid Cymru candidate,

where do you stand on that?

The development of Wylfa, according to what's been said

in the last six months, looks more and more likely.

We welcome that but as Rhun's already said

we have to make sure that all the matters dealing with local jobs,

protecting the Welsh language,

making sure that the safety side, are all considered.

Even though your party's against nuclear, you're happy with this?

Our party is in favour of a new site

in this location on Anglesey.

Thank you, John Rowlands. Richard Vauxhall, who works for the Horizon company.

Going back to the question

and if you took the new Wylfa out of the picture.

The turbine energy scheme out in the sea

will bring more energy to the island than the pylons can carry.

And there are other developments.

With regard to jobs for young people,

it's a personal mission for us to make sure that young people,

and I go out to schools regularly these days

to make sure young people understand the possibilities

of long term careers that will keep them on the island.

That's important.

What's also important and there might be a discussion about this,

is that they understand they need the right qualifications

in order to come and work, not only as engineers in a new power station,

but also work on the extra design and machinery

in the other energy schemes.

Do you meet people from the National Grid?

I come across them once in a while.

Would you argue the case for something apart from pylons,

or do you think pylons are alright?

The important thing to consider is when the Grid goes out to consult,

it wants to hear people's views.

That's what influences what they decide to do in the end.

It also gives them the evidence for them to go back to managers

and say this is the opinion of local people.

But it's important that the Grid asks the right question

and at the moment, the Grid is not asking the question about going under the sea.

It hasn't been a fair consultation.

There are a few hands up. Lowri Mair in the middle.

As someone who was also brought up two miles from Wylfa,

I have to agree with Robin here and disagree with Dr Harri.

I think when we're talking about such a large investment

which is going to be made over several years,

I'd invest that money in education and research.

I think there's a way of developing something more sustainable in the end.

Fine, we can invest all this money in Wylfa,

but in 40 years, we'll be in the same situation again.

Thank you, Lowri. There was a hand up over there.

I would prefer my children and my children's children

to get jobs in Wylfa than in the big white elephant in Holyhead, Land and Lakes.

There won't be any jobs there, but there will be at Wylfa.

I'm in favour of it.

We are coming to the end with regard to the audience.

These two have their hands up, John Chorlton?

As far as I can see, every time people talk about Wylfa B,

they say it's going to have an affect on the language.

I don't quite understand that.

Where are the strongest places with regard to the language?

Caernarfon, Gwynedd and Anglesey.

What's in Gwynedd? Trawsfynydd. What's on Anglesey? Wylfa.

It hasn't affected the language up until now.

Why is Wylfa B going to have an affect? I don't understand.

Gareth?

I was fortunate enough to find temporary work at Wylfa this month

and I spoke Welsh there every day and I talked to Richard in Welsh.

You'd be amazed how many people do speak Welsh there.

The language is healthy there.

I'm going to give you all an opportunity to give a short reply.

Robin, answer this point about the language.

The point is that Wylfa has had a negative effect

over the last few years, there's no doubt about that.

AUDIENCE GRUMBLES

Look at the results of the Census.

The percentage of the population

which speaks Welsh on Anglesey has dropped.

The number of people speaking the language has dropped.

That's because young people are moving away.

Yes, we need jobs. We need jobs for them.

Wylfa is going to create jobs mainly for people from other places.

Right. There we are.

Some people in the audience disagree with you.

Beti Williams?

When Anglesey Aluminium was being built

and when the first Wylfa was being built,

it kept the young people of Anglesey on Anglesey

and they're still here now and have got jobs.

But let me say this.

It's a bit rich, to use an English term,

for Plaid Cymru to be in favour of a new Wylfa

and in favour of not having these pylons

when Leanne Wood and the team in Cardiff...

Plaid Cymru's policy is anti-nuclear.

You didn't get an honest answer from Mr Rowlands

because this to me is like parish council politics.

You change the policy from parish to parish.

-Rhun, respond to that.

-What do you want me to do?

-Relive that battle or...

-Is it over?

I'll answer the point Gareth made.

I'm sure Gareth and John would agree with me on this.

What we have to be careful of

is the gap between this Wylfa and the next Wylfa.

There's a danger that young local people will move away

and other people will move in to fill the hole.

We want to make sure they can work as Welsh speakers in Wylfa.

Harri, you can have the final word.

Economically, for a village like Cemaes, Wylfa is crucial.

We need it for our energy.

If we had some other way of producing energy, great.

But we haven't, so we welcome it.

APPLAUSE

I have to ask you as a local GP,

is it a boost for a blow for the language?

If we have language centres

to help the children of the people who come in,

so that they are integrated through the Welsh language at the beginning,

it could be positive for the language if it's done properly.

And Coleg Menai and Bangor University

have a crucial role to play and they're already playing their part.

I want to praise them for what they're doing

to prepare our young people to fill these jobs when they're advertised.

We have to take a short break. Join us again in Llangefni in two minutes.

Welcome back to Llangefni. We have one part of our programme left.

We've only had time for three questions this evening, I'm afraid.

But there's so much to discuss, isn't there?

This question comes from Karen Parry Rowlands.

Does the panel believe it would be a mistake to invest less money

in maintaining playgroups on the island?

Does the panel believe it would be a mistake to invest less money

in maintaining playgroups on the island?

It's something being discussed at the moment on Anglesey.

Robin Farrar, let's start with you.

It's a big mistake, in my opinion.

To begin with, this shouldn't be necessary at all.

What Anglesey Council has done in this case is pass on cuts

which we oppose.

If the Welsh Government followed sensible examples

like the government in the Basque country

and invested seriously in the language,

that's one of the six things we've been calling for them to do

for the sake of the language.

We want the language to have fairness financially.

There would be a significant amount of money from the Government

going towards schemes like Twf and playgroups.

They're very important,

not only to the young people and the parents who need them,

but for the language as well.

But this is a mistake by Anglesey as well, I think,

because the council says the provision will move to schools,

the provision for three to four-year-olds.

Is that going to save money in the end?

I don't think it is.

One of the great things about playgroups

is that volunteers do a lot of the work.

That saves money but it's also a strength

because if people have moved into the area,

it's a way of helping people to integrate into communities.

-But in a time of cuts...

-The children are going to have...

But why avoid this field in a time of cuts?

In a time of cuts,

we should be investing more in the Welsh language.

The Welsh language has not had fair play financially

over the last few years.

We've called on the Welsh Government to assess

the effect its spending is having on the language.

It hasn't done that. These cuts aren't fair.

But this big spending you're talking about

isn't going to happen at this time.

That's the real world.

With leadership from Carwyn Jones and the Welsh Government,

there would be investment in important things like this.

Karen Parry Rowlands, what's happening here on Anglesey?

It's not fair to put three-year-old children in schools.

My own children have been to nursery school.

They see the teacher as an aunty, not a teacher.

A three-year-old child is not going to get the same fair play

as a four-year-old in a rural school.

He's going to get left behind.

In most rural schools, they are between the ages of four and seven.

Where is a three-year-old child going to get the education?

They're not. It's not fair.

You've set your stall there. Trefor Lloyd Hughes.

To be fair, we should be funding nursery schools.

There's no doubt about that.

But what I can't understand is, we've got £16 million

in the Anglesey Trust.

Why is it there?

Why can't we use some of that to put towards nursery schools?

Towards other organisations on Anglesey.

People on Anglesey need the money now, not in 20 or 30 years.

Now.

And I think we as councillors on Anglesey should realise...

But you've got £7.5 million to save this year.

Something has to give. What are you going to cut if you don't cut this?

But you could take money from the trust to help.

Right. John Wyn Jones?

I agree with Trefor Lloyd Hughes.

I have grandchildren now and I have to say,

I do see a big difference between three and four-year-old children.

I think it would be a mistake to try and fill the gaps in the schools,

primary schools...

But where would you make cuts?

You have to make cuts somewhere.

I'm not in the local authority.

To be honest, Plaid Cymru is the opposition party on Anglesey.

I'm sure you've got an opinion.

Yes, but the people in charge have to decide.

Aled Morris Jones.

This issue is still being discussed at the moment,

and no decisions have been made.

The councillors all agree on this, if I may say so.

It's not a matter of opposition.

We're all there as councillors together to make decisions

and it was good that the opposition party met

with the party that was in control.

There are no easy decisions in this difficult time.

But we have to protect the language, that's for sure.

We have to look for some kind of compromise here.

Let's go back to the panel. Rhun ap Iorwerth?

I'm amazed and disappointed by this recommendation

and I think the way the recommendation has been put together

insults the good work staff

and volunteers at nursery schools have put in.

It's easy to criticise the cuts, but you have to make them somewhere.

We're talking about a relatively small sum of money.

It would be a decision on saving money now, literally next month,

without thinking, it seems, about the long term implications.

Investing in the compulsory school age,

the age when they could go to school

but instead have been going to nursery school,

investing in that sustains the other work

done by Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, from Cylch Ti a Fi

through to other children from the age of two onwards.

Is the council really saying it wants to take that opportunity

away from parents on Anglesey, many of whom don't speak Welsh,

to send their children to nursery schools just to save a few pennies.

I'm glad that Aled seems to be agreeing

with the Plaid Cymru councillors because they've all told me

they're going to strongly oppose any intention to introduce this change.

I look forward to have confirmation now that you,

as a member of this council's cabinet,

will throw this idea out immediately.

You can respond, Aled.

I don't think you quite understood what I said, unfortunately.

There are still discussions going on between everyone.

So discussions mean that it's possible this won't happen?

County council officials from the education department

have met with nursery schools today and those discussions are ongoing.

Beti Williams.

I'm inviting you to say that all cabinet members

will reject this idea.

No decisions have been made.

-I hope you understand the message.

-Do you oppose it, Aled?

We won't get a further answer, Rhun. Beti Williams.

Rhun is an Assembly Member

but the councillor is a member of Anglesey Council.

So I understand what he's saying and from where he's coming from.

But what's important is that young children are allowed to socialise

and learn to live with each other before going into formal education.

I'd like to think that Anglesey Council's aim

is for that to continue but that it happens in a school

rather than a centre.

If I'm right, what started this debate

is that an Estyn report said that a lot of good work was being done by playgroups

but that some services were uneven across Anglesey.

So what they want is to ensure that every child

has the same standard across the county.

Harri, very briefly.

I think it's very sad for the Welsh language

and socially for the parents and children.

It's not just about the children.

The mothers meet, it helps them psychologically.

It's crucial.

Thank you very much and thank you to the audience on Anglesey.

It's been a pleasure, as usual, to have your company.

Thank you also to the panel for your contributions.

Next week, I'll be in Pembrokeshire.

Until then, from Llangefni, good night.