06/02/2014 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel tonight, Labour councillor Calum Higgins,

singer, nationalist and businessman Dafydd Iwan,

former leader of Pembrokeshire Council

and Chairman of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, John Davies,

and the head of BT in Wales, who is also Wales' Equality

and Human Rights Commissioner, Ann Beynon.

Please give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn.

I must say that it is wonderful to be back in Pembrokeshire once again.

It's our only visit this winter.

I have a question for the audience in Crymych.

Will you be as willing to debate as the people of Anglesey last week?

If you are, we'll have an interesting night at the leisure centre,

next-door to Ysgol Preseli.

There will obviously be different subjects.

They were chosen this afternoon.

And you are welcome to respond to the debate.

Let's go to our first question.

It comes from Sara Watkins. Sara, what is your question?

Following the recent flood damage, is spending more the answer,

or should we let nature have its way?

Thank you, Sara.

Following the recent flood damage, is spending more the answer,

or should we let nature have its way? A very topical question.

John Davies, I'll start with you.

Thank you, Dewi. It is an interesting question.

Nature does not have to ask for our permission. Nature is our master.

And as an agriculturalist, we have known through the generations, we

have to work alongside nature and we must respect nature in order

to grow produce for the table and so on.

In the context of what we have seen this winter, and this winter has

been extreme, but the question is - is this going to become the norm?

It is heartbreaking to see what has been happening in Somerset,

the Somerset Levels.

We need to spend more and David Cameron has announced that this

week, there is £130 million extra, but that is nothing...

And it is money for England.

Well, I would hope there would be a percentage...

They have to ask for it and they have not yet done so.

I would expect that question to be asked.

But the fact is that we need to spend more and spend it effectively.

But we also need to allow common sense...

We need to dredge rivers because if you go back...

You don't have to go to Somerset.

If you go back to the summer of two years ago,

northern Ceredigion, Talybont.

At the time, people who knew the area and the landscape

said that the rivers need dredging, drains need clearing.

That is not happening because we are over-managing.

Is it that our priorities are different?

Bodies such as Natural Resources Wales have decided

we have different priorities.

That is part of it, but you have too many experts.

We need to spend the extra money to make a difference,

rather than spending on processes

because unless you spend the extra £130 million on dredging

the rivers, building new defences, you will not make a difference.

Dafydd Iwan.

I think that Mr Pickles' statement today is shocking

because Britain is the member of the European Union

and the British parliament is applying for the whole of Britain.

To say they are keeping the money for England, Wales is devolved,

is, I think, a little insulting.

If the Welsh Government can apply for more money, that is

a different matter.

But I'm surprised that it has been put that way,

saying it is just for England.

Of course, we need money to repair the damage,

but the second part of the question is interesting.

In the long-term, as John suggested, we cannot defeat nature.

And it is about time we realised that nature is changing its ways.

So, do we give in, even when homes are in the balance,

-nature is stronger than us?

-It is not a matter of giving in.

I think we must accept that the climate is changing,

the weather pattern is changing and we need a long-term plan, a radical

plan, to gradually move people from seaside towns to live inland.

You'd go that far? Move them from the towns affected?

Gradually, we have to do that and we need a new way of building,

on stilts if need be.

I saw plans recently, maybe the rest of the panel have seen,

50 years on, the Welsh Government is already preparing plans.

For our community council, there is a lot of lowland,

a lot of the land was disappearing.

Roads going, so we need to re-plan roads and some railways

and we will have to move.

Some of our seaside towns will be facing problems.

I will return to you, Dafydd. Ann, what do you think?

I do think that we all need to take responsibility,

we can't just blame the Government all the time.

We need to be cleverer.

There is a great example right now in Llanelli,

work being carried out by Welsh Water.

They have discovered a way of diverting the water,

so it does not enter the sewerage system.

That is a simple system and I would suggest that from now on,

all towns in future should build such systems.

As individuals, we can also make a difference.

We can avoid tarmacing gardens.

It is a fact that a number of people in towns

tarmacing their gardens have added to the problem.

But also, these houses have been built on floodplains.

-The rules have been eased over recent years.

-Yes, and that is a mess.

I do believe that planning regulations where there is

a danger of flooding need to be strict.

Unfortunately, there are houses there already.

-You can't move them that quickly, so in the meantime...

-So we spend?

We have to spend, but maybe we need to be cleverer in order to

defend the houses that are already there.

Calum Higgins. Let's hear from Calum.

As the other panellists have said, long-term planning is the answer.

In Llanelli, the Rainscape project is going ahead

and it is leading the way in this field.

Welsh Water take the water out of the traditional system

that they had and they are putting it in grass, roadside verges.

Millions is being spent, but those millions will pay off

in the years to come and that is the answer - long-term planning.

But would you accept that the rules have been eased too much over

recent years and that there has been too much building on dangerous land?

That is the reason we have brought Natural Resources Wales

together to ensure that agencies talk to each other

and Welsh Water is consulted when estates are being built.

There have been problems in the past.

But talking to each other is not the problem.

The councillors who voted in favour of building houses on floodplains

have seen the plans, but they don't have to take any notice of them.

We need to change the legislation

and say that we should not be building on any floodplains.

-And councillors have to take notice of that.

-Why aren't they

doing so at the moment?

It is not statutory right now. You have the Information Act,

but you don't have to take that into consideration.

-So you blame the councils?

-Yes. I have been involved in votes.

All that was done was floor level was raised six inches.

That isn't good enough.

If there is a danger of serious flooding,

we should stay clear of that land.

-Are agriculturalists to blame?

-Or build on stilts.

-That's what we did years ago.

-That sounds very radical to me.

John, are we over-farming in some highland areas

and that allows the water to flow down too quickly?

You have obviously read George Monbiot's article.

-You obviously have, too.

-In my opinion, that is stupid.

What about planting trees?

If you plant more trees, the roots hold the land back.

We need to be planting more trees.

The fact is that farmers in the 21st century are far more

environmental in the way they go about their work.

They are urged to do so.

And I would tell you that sustainability is key.

Look at the rivers. We live in these areas.

You will see there is no maintenance.

If there had been along the Aberystwyth promenade,

they were old sea walls, it would still be there.

Go down to Aberaeron and there has been investment.

No-one has mentioned Aberaeron. Part of Aberaeron is under the sea level.

It is simple.

We need to ease restrictions to allow people to carry out

the maintenance work on those rivers.

And that is what the people of Somerset are saying.

And now, the politicians have to listen.

But you dispute the point about these trees, from Ann?

-That is happening.

-Is it?

We have to accept that it is good for the environment.

It stops the water flowing down into the sea.

But we are playing with the idea, playing with the problem.

We need long-term planning to move our population and houses.

Nature is not going to change its way.

I will return to that criticism of Eric Pickles.

The suggestion that the Welsh Government has not asked for money.

That is what David Jones, the Conservative, is saying.

-Calum?

-This is playing at politics. We all know...

Planning at that level is something where all governments cooperate.

Eric Pickles is making a cheap point.

Right, cheap or not, I'm going straight to the back row,

to Sara, who asked the question.

As the panel has already said, we cannot control nature

and one thing that has been put in place is the short-term

and long-term plans

and one of the long-term plans is to allow the land to become a

floodplain, areas in Pembrokeshire, such as Amorth and Freshwater East.

And maybe in the long-term, that will stop flooding,

but then, we need to consider the fact that Pembrokeshire

as a county relies on those areas, those wonderful views, for tourism.

Won't the economy of Pembrokeshire suffer, even if we are

stopping flooding?

So you are saying that money must be spent.

-What about you?

-I agree with Sara.

Abereiddy is a good example.

The wall in Abereiddy has gone and half the car park has gone.

What are the visitors to Abereiddy going to do next year?

Will any visitors be able to use it?

-You hope the money will be spent before then?

-It won't be spent now.

The rocks have gone. It is over.

And we're facing cuts any way.

Llwyd Edwards.

I don't think people in the Netherlands would agree with us.

A large portion of that country is below sea level.

Let's hear from the geography experts from Ysgol Y Preseli.

-I'll come to the deputy headmaster.

-Assistant head.

I tend to agree with Sara.

There are plans in place and every authority in Wales

is responsible for creating a sea defence strategy

for the short-term and a long-term.

The truth is, can they be realised in order to protect the coastline?

It's a long coastline. We live on an island in the UK.

There isn't enough money out there to protect these areas.

We will face difficult decisions in the future.

How about Dafydd Iwan's radical ideas, like stilts?

It works in some countries but that would be expensive as well.

You're obviously an expert.

How about the idea of carrying out work on higher ground?

There are two different kinds of floods.

Floods which effect areas around rivers

but we've also faced an increase in storms in coastal areas.

Both have been effecting Wales over the last few months.

Planning for and controlling those floods takes different strategies.

-And the trees?

-It's a good idea.

How about you?

The Netherlands have proved for many years

that it's possible to overcome nature.

It's very similar to Somerset.

One of the problems with Somerset

is similar to the problem we have with badgers.

I knew badgers would come up!

You snuck that in quietly.

Some people would rather help badgers than farmers.

In Somerset, it's the birds in wetlands which are protected.

They have been drowning those areas for many years

to bring back wetland birds.

It proves that failing to dredge the rivers has caused problems.

It's possible to improve things in Somerset

by using the methods they use in the Netherlands.

-And you? Did you want to jump in?

-No.

-Lewis Aaron?

-I think Dafydd's idea is a little bit extreme ideas.

As you know, if a family has lived in a house

or a specific area for over a century,

as many families have, do you think they are going to move?

They will want to stay where generations of their family

have lived.

But they might have to move.

As Dafydd Iwan says, difficult decision will have to be made.

I think we can invest sensibly in creating defences

rather than moving people.

Even when money is short? How about you in the colourful shirt?

We're all concerned about the rain we've had recently

but if we have a dry summer,

we'll be concerned about the dry weather.

Where does this water go?

We don't take advantage of the water and store it effectively.

There was a hand up here, on the left.

One thing we have not discussed

is holding the water up on high ground before it reaches a river

and releasing it after the flooding has passed.

That would allow us to control the water at source,

in the streams.

And one more comment.

Somerset has suffered the most,

but on the news last night they said that the environmentalists

have contributed to the problem.

They have spent £31 million

on creating a habitat for birds.

And now they won't spend £6 million to dredge the rivers.

That is where the problem is.

Farmers have the same problems. You can't cut a hedge

or spread the slurry when you like.

Those people are behind the problem.

So the £31 million on protecting birds is a waste of money?

That much is, yes.

The birds aren't in the water in Somerset.

They can fly to dry land. The farmer can't.

I hope you're happy with that discussion, Sara.

Let's leave it there.

We need to learn lessons.

I'm not going back to the panel.

Let's move on to the second question, from Eurwyn Harries.

The friends of Cardigan Hospital have put forward a petition

carrying 11,000 signatures, opposing the closure of the hospital.

How should the Welsh Government react?

The friends of Cardigan Hospital have put forward a petition

carrying 11,000 signatures, opposing the closure of the hospital.

How should the Welsh Government react?

As it happens, Eurwyn is the chairman of that group.

Answer the question.

There are obviously strong feelings about this issue.

People do feel strongly about this.

That's why we've collected 11,000 signatures in four weeks.

It' the biggest petition the Welsh Assembly has received.

Almost double what they usually receive.

The Health Minister Mark Drakeford has to step in

and order the Hywel Dda Health Board to keep the beds at the hospital.

But why?

They are looking to make cuts and have chosen that hospital.

How can you argue otherwise?

Cardigan is 30 miles from the bigger hospitals

like Glangwili, Withybush and Bronglais.

Because of that 30 miles, patients have been coming back to Cardigan

when they're not well enough to go home.

The facility has been very important.

They are already cutting back on the beds.

They make decisions and then we are told.

They haven't consulted on the issue

before taking these steps.

I will come back to you.

Ann Beynon, how would you solve this problem?

I don't want to claim I understand the problem because I don't.

But looking at this from the outside,

closing any hospital or school is very emotional.

I understand why a community feels it owns a hospital -

that it's part of the community.

But the question I would ask is, if you're ill,

would you rather go to a local hospital

or somewhere where there are experts

who are familiar with treating all kinds diseases and so on?

Somewhere you know you'll get the best treatment.

I imagine you would say the larger hospital.

That doesn't mean there's no place for local care

but what frightens me is that the statistics show

that many people in our hospitals, particularly the elderly,

are there for far too long

and they should be given care at home.

That would take pressure away from hospitals.

Or they could go to a hospital like Cardigan.

It is possible to have local care facilities.

It doesn't have to be a hospital.

It's also possible for local GPs to provide that service.

They may need to develop new skills

which would allow minor treatments to be done in surgeries.

I would look at moving some services down the ladder.

Unfortunately, the money is available.

You can respond to that in a moment.

Calum Higgins.

I want to pick up on the point about consultation.

That has been a problem for Hywel Dda.

The minister has said this week that the NHS federation

is going to speak to Hywel Dda

about the way they consult.

People don't have confidence in the health board.

It didn't consult the people.

I'm not going to talk about the local issue.

I don't represent this area.

What about the principle of closing a hospital like this?

Modernisation has got to happen

but we have got to take local people with us

and the health boards,

rather than people just being told it's being closed and that's that.

A consultation process needs to be implemented

and over the long-term.

John Davies?

I think we have to praise this group

for putting this petition together.

It was a campaign but it wasn't hard work

because it happened naturally due to the respect people

in Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire have

for the care which is provided in hospitals like Cardigan.

Small hospitals have a different role to play.

You go to places like Glangwili Hospital and Morriston Hospital

for your treatment,

but you return to these hospitals for your aftercare

before returning home.

Some people can't go home immediately without that care.

So, is this a mistake?

It's a mistake because this issue has been before us

for over a decade.

They have been telling us for ten years

that there's going to be a new hospital in Cardigan.

We need Mark Drakeford to tell the health board

that this money is available - £20 million.

I happened in Ebbw Vale -

£34 million for the new Aneurin Bevan Hospital.

The Government seem to have dragged their feet in this case.

Are you suggesting that because Ebbw Vale is a Labour seat,

there's a different attitude?

-It's possible.

-It wasn't a Labour seat at the time.

It was an Independent seat.

It became a Labour seat and the work took place during that election.

We need some good political will and we need a commitment

to provide that money because people in this area deserve these services.

John says it's Labour's duty to support hospitals like this one.

There are plans to build a new hospital. The figure is £20 million.

That should be the response from the government.

The problem is the gap between the hospital closing

and a new hospital.

We have to make sure there is not much of an effect on local people.

Yes, at the back?

I've been a volunteer at Cardigan Hospital

and I know a lot of excellent work is done there.

There are people with dementia

and within 50 years it's predicted that the number of people over 65

will almost double.

Small hospitals are very important

and it's a disgrace that they're closing.

Yes, Mair?

I agree. It's a disgrace that they intend to get rid of these beds.

This provision is very important for the people of Cardigan

and the surrounding area.

It's been there for years.

As has been said, you receive your primary care

at Glangwili Hospital and son on

but many people, particularly the elderly,

are not well enough to return home immediately.

Care services in the home are not provided everywhere

and only for a few hours a day.

The obvious question is, if you are not going to make cuts here,

where would you make cuts?

It's going to cost more in the long-term

because people will be sent home before they are fully recovered

and they will have to go back to hospital.

In the long-term it will cost more for the authority.

The pupil from Bro Gwaun? What do you think?

The same thing is happening in Withybush.

They have decided to close the specialist baby unit

From where I live,

it takes an hour to get to the nearest hospital.

I was fortunate to have that unit at Withybush

because I almost died when I was a baby.

If it was not for that hospital then I wouldn't be here today.

If you'd had to go to Glangwili it would have been a problem.

Over here.

A woman in a local village was treated yesterday

and it was pretty serious - breast cancer treatment -

at Withybush Hospital.

She has been sent home today.

She has seven children, the youngest is five, the oldest is 15,

and the five-year-old only has half a heart.

If the hospital in Cardigan was open,

she would be able to go there for two weeks.

Someone else with experience of Cardigan Hospital.

They are cutting down on paediatricians

at Withybush Hospital.

My daughter went in last night and had to stay overnight

and it's disgraceful that these hospitals are closing.

I had triplets and we came back to Withybush from Swansea

and it was like home to me.

I was there for a few weeks.

What about the people in St David's? Where will they go?

Let's go back to Dafydd Iwan.

To answer the question,

of course the government has to listen to local voices.

I would not like to implement this restructuring.

But it's a disgrace that a country which spends millions on arms,

that we're talking about closing hospitals.

Let me say a few things about the restructuring.

We all accept that we need centres of expertise

where the primary treatments are carried out.

That's where the specialists will be.

But the mistake health boards are making is over distances.

They think that a system which works in a city will work in rural Wales.

If I may give you an example. It's the same in North Wales.

A woman who has been visiting her husband in hospital

for six weeks, since before Christmas, twice a day,

even when she gets a lift in a car.

Four hours a day, maybe five or six on a bus.

She was told yesterday that her husband will be moved

to Bryn Beryl, the local hospital near Pwllheli.

That will cut down her travelling from four or five hours a day

to an hour or so.

Imagine the difference that makes to those people.

But how do we afford it?

I know you mentioned the fact that we spend on weapons,

but that's not going to happen in the real world.

We do spend on that

but we can make savings by having a local service

rather than always travelling.

Not only is it easier for people

but there are savings to be made.

Essentially, you are asking the Labour Government

to earmark more money for health and to make it more of a priority.

A growing elderly population means we'll have to spend more.

-Ann.

-I think there's a fundamental problem

in terms of the number of people who go to hospital who don't need to go

and people who can't return home from hospital.

Part of the problem is that the NHS in Wales

has not used technology effectively.

It's possible to deal with some patients...

For example, people on dialysis can be treated at home.

There's an excellent scheme on Anglesey

where people who need dialysis can stay at home

and the nurse can keep an eye on them from a distance.

That saves thousands of pounds but that does not happen enough.

There's a lack of creative thinking.

If you go into hospital, you can't even use things like iPads.

That doesn't make sense.

Calum Higgins.

On a broader point, the Williams Commission has come back and said

we need more scrutiny of local health boards.

That is a point the government is going to react to.

I hope they will change the decision-making system...

After 15 years of a Labour government in the Assembly,

shouldn't that be happening already?

The point of the Commission was to look at the public sector.

I hope they will act on that.

I think the majority of people want to return home

after having hospital treatment if it's possible

as long as the care is up to the same standard.

In terms of technology and modernisation,

that can happen more and more.

When the health boards were created five or six years ago

by merging the trusts, and the whole point was to cut the cost costs.

Not a single manager lost their job

because of the Assembly policy of zero redundancies.

That is the heart of the problem.

You asked Dafydd where savings can be made,

they have to come from management.

How many people do you see around hospitals with a piece of paper

in their hand rather than a stethoscope?

You have to make cuts at the top as well.

And we need a better understanding between the Health Service

and the local authorities.

They don't seem to be working in tandem at the moment.

It's time for a short break.

Join us in a few minutes after the adverts.

Welcome back.

You are watching this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn from Crymych.

We're joined by people from this part of Pembrokeshire.

Let's go to our third question. We've heard from Tomos Evans already.

What's your question?

How do we create high-quality jobs

in order to keep young people in this area?

My family has lived in Pembrokeshire since 1780,

but I'm concerned I won't be able to.

Thank you.

How do we create high-quality jobs

in order to keep young people in this area?

Tomos' family has lived in Pembrokeshire since 1780,

but he's worried he won't be able to stay here.

Dafydd Iwan?

-It's a fundamental question.

-While we have Pawb a'i Farn,

I think we will always be discussing this question.

Are you suggesting we've heard it before?

I've answered it before.

But I don't blame you for asking it.

This is one of the most important questions.

How can we keep more young people in Mid, West and North Wales?

It's the perpetual question.

More and more of our children, they stay in Wales,

but they move to Cardiff.

As they settle down and have children,

their relatives move closer to the big cities as well.

-Does that make you angry?

-It does.

I want to make two points.

It is important.

Back in the 1970s, many of my generation deliberately

moved from Cardiff back to our rural communities

and started businesses because we realised how important it was.

My first point is that national bodies can make a difference

by moving jobs away from Cardiff.

S4C are seriously considering doing that.

I think bodies like the BBC and BT and other government departments

need to move good jobs from Cardiff back to West Wales, Pembrokeshire,

Mid Wales and to North Wales.

That is part of the answer.

Thankfully the message is getting through.

The second point is something we have started in Gwynedd

and is starting in other counties, is planting into the minds

of young people that there are opportunities in the local area.

As one example, outdoor activities.

Those jobs are being filled by people from England for years

and now we're starting to see the possibilities.

In the mountains, sailing, farming, tourism and so on.

Good jobs.

We need to create entrepreneurship and take every opportunity.

I'd say those two things are a big part of the answer.

-Will BT be moving to West Wales?

-I don't think we need to.

We have employed another 284 people in Wales in the last 18 months.

That's on top of the 3,500 we already employ.

-Where?

-All over Wales.

104 of those new jobs have stemmed directly from our contract

with the Welsh Government to provide a broadband network.

That work is going on now.

One of our senior officials lives in Anglesey and he works from home

because she now has broadband.

By the summer of 2016 there will be broadband in Pembrokeshire.

It's not here at the moment.

So it is very difficult for anyone who wants to work from home.

-It will be here by the summer of 2016.

-You heard it here first.

I can promise that. And it will be vital.

In places like Cornwall, people are able to stay at home

and create their own businesses or work for companies like BT,

but work in rural areas.

Tomos, can you answer your own question?

What I would like to do in the future

is to study a drama course somewhere because I want to become an actor.

There are no jobs with the BBC, for example, in this area.

But don't you have to accept that you'll have to leave Pembrokeshire?

-You can't have every job in the local area.

-I realise that.

Many people of my age will decide to move from this area

to find jobs and then people from England, perhaps,

who have decided to retire, will move into the community.

Let's go to the back and some girls from Ysgol Y Preseli.

In Pembrokeshire, the options are, finding a job in the public sector,

agriculture or tourism.

S4C should set an example like they did with Y Gwyll in Aberystwyth

and more television programmes should be filmed in rural areas.

And with broadband,

when broadband is improved, there is nothing to stop people

working for the Government from home.

We need to stop this idea that if you want a successful future

you don't have to move to big cities like Cardiff.

There are other options for people like us.

Your friend?

I think it's less of a problem than it has been.

New technology allows people to work from home.

Agriculture is developing.

As the demand for food increases,

I think we'll see more jobs in agriculture.

And maybe other different kinds of jobs.

Ilan.

There is a lack of variety of apprenticeships on offer,

particularly in Pembrokeshire.

You only really get apprenticeships in engineering,

science, perhaps, in Valero or Kinetic.

That is an obstacle if you want to work in other sectors,

and people have to leave because they can't do what they want to.

Down in the front?

We should be proud of the fact that we have a strong tradition

of entrepreneurship in Pembrokeshire.

We often see Wales as being pretty quiet in the field.

The statistics show that the majority of businesses

in Pembrokeshire are family businesses.

People learn a craft and then employ two or three people.

Families also set up companies in the tourism industry.

We don't want too much of that, of course.

One of the best examples in this area is Mansel Davies.

The viewers have all seen the lorries on the roads.

They employ 200 people.

It's strange that a successful company like that

is based so far from the motorway.

You also have farmers.

there are people here tonight who have set up businesses.

There's one next to me who turned his hand to being a garage owner,

he's run a Welsh book shop, he now specialises in rearing cattle.

Can he speak for himself?

It's all about being entrepreneurial.

It's important that we make the most of what we have.

Tourism and agriculture are our main industries.

Agriculture provides good jobs.

You have vets, agronomists, auctioneers...

What's happening is that we're losing core people like farmers

who create these jobs.

I would advise young people not to look to the Assembly

to provide jobs, you have to create them yourselves.

If you move away, you can come back

and if you have a high-value product you will do well.

There are a lot of hands up on this.

I'll come to you first.

I would blame the pressure on young people to go to university.

Almost all children are expected to go to university.

Many of them look for public sector jobs which pay better,

but they are all admin jobs.

We're going back to the same problem as Cardigan Hospital.

We need people who can work,

we need more apprenticeships to provide jobs.

Let's go to the headmaster, Mike Davies.

Is there too much emphasis on a university education?

And are schools helping people to see the opportunities around them?

I would say that schools prepare young people well for the future.

A large percentage do go to university, but not everyone does.

I agree with what Ilan said.

There are obstacles in the way for schools

because we want to give children an experience of the workplace.

There are very few apprenticeships available.

What happens then is there are fewer options available

and, as a result, they decide to go to university.

At the back?

What we need to do now is invest in two things -

jobs which are more specific to what children are doing now,

jobs like engineering and agriculture and tourism.

But the other thing that needs to be done, as has been said before,

is invest in new technology and expand broadband.

I know people who are working on kilobytes now

instead of the meg that is needed.

I know you want to go to university. But will you come back afterwards?

It depends on where the jobs are.

It depends on whether jobs are available

and on whether I can work from home and it depends on

-whether there are better jobs available in other places.

-Fine.

I'd like to hear from two other panellists.

The new technology is very important.

-Can we hear from the two who have not spoken yet.

-Thank you.

Many of my friends went to Cardiff University

and didn't come back because that's where the public sector jobs are.

And central government.

Those jobs need to move from Cardiff towards the west.

I would welcome a stall in Carmarthen to welcome S4C.

Young people want jobs there and also, back to the private sector,

we want to encourage entrepreneurial businesses,

young people in areas like Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire

and encourage them to use the Welsh language.

If you have language skills, come back

and start a bilingual business and that will help the local economy.

John, will you close?

Very simply, we have to use the resources we have, both human

and land. Agriculture and tourism are essential.

And that's what the question referred to.

We need to create jobs, but not useless ones.

They have to be jobs with purpose, which is

valuable to our local economies, because if you have a purpose, there

is cultural sustainability and the language will be sustained as well.

We all know the old saying about the language being used.

The language needs work.

And Mansel Davies is one example amongst many where language

and work coexist happily.

The other two are keen to talk.

We are employing apprentices in BT at the moment.

-This is not an advert for BT.

-Especially women in engineering.

-One sentence, Dafydd.

-One sentence!

We shouldn't put ourselves down too much.

We have an example in Pembrokeshire in Narberth of a small town

which has rediscovered itself and is a fantastic shopping centre.

-We need more vision like that.

-An advert for Narberth as well.

That discussion is over. Let's move on. But first, let's have a break.

Join us in two minutes.

Welcome back to Crymych. I hope you're enjoying the programme.

Let's move on to our next question, from John R Davies.

What does the panel think about the payment given to Pembrokeshire

Council's Chief Executive Officer

-and which has been criticised by the Wales Audit Office.

-Thank you, John.

What does the panel think about the payment given to Pembrokeshire

Council's Chief Executive Officer

and which has been criticised by the Wales Audit Office.

We have heard about that this week.

Calum, would you stand on this issue, as a Pembrokeshire

councillor who has also had to face the same problem?

It has raised serious questions and the public want answers.

That is why we are going to have a special full meeting

and the only thing on the agenda will be the Audit Commission's

reports and we will be discussing it.

People on the backbenches will have to ask the questions

that the electorate wants them to ask.

What questions will you ask?

Why this happened.

What was the process followed to reach those decisions.

And questions about the law.

The Council has one side, and the Audit Office has the other

and people on the backbenches like myself,

and I am a new member so I was not there when the decision was made,

so it is a new thing to me

and I will have to ask questions about the legality of this

and how we are going to move on,

because we have enough to do in local government during hard times.

Is the Labour group going to ask Mark James to stand down

while you discuss the matter?

The auditor has said that it is illegal.

Yes and that's why we are having a full meeting to discuss

the matter in public.

That's important and it's important that we ask the questions

the public want us to ask.

Let's go over to John, a County Councillor in Pembrokeshire.

The payment has been made as a cash payment to the

Chief Executive in Carmarthenshire and in Pembrokeshire,

rather than a pension contribution by the County Council. John?

The fact is, not only was it made specifically to the Chief Executive,

it was made as part of a policy available to the chief officers.

So it would affect around 25 people.

To be factually correct, two of the payments were made,

not just the one to the chief executive.

It was decided around two and half years ago.

-I was part of that process.

-You made the decision?

-I was part of that, as leader at the time.

-And you were happy with it?

And it was decided unanimously by the committee,

and they were Conservatives,

Labour and Independent group members represented in that meeting.

It was decided to allow it on condition

that there would not be extra costs.

The auditor has suggested that, in his opinion, there is an

additional long-term cost...

-The auditor has suggested that it is illegal.

-He also suggests that.

But the fact is,

both counties have legal advice that says something different.

So I would suggest that if I was still leader,

we need an enquiry that is independent.

The Crown Prosecution Service is looking at it

and I would welcome that enquiry because it would be unbiased,

it would deal with the facts

and both councils would be able to learn from this.

So it is possible that you accept that a mistake has been made.

Of course a mistake has been made.

We have to learn that nobody is perfect.

In retrospect,

we can see that it was not one of the wisest decisions.

Thank you, John. Ann Beynon.

What concerns me is that because we can communicate

so quickly these days on the Internet and that rumours start

and move so fast,

they have been several instances of this happening and that

people are misjudged by the public before a fair hearing has occurred.

So I would suggest that we need to be careful because...

-Do you doubt the auditor's word?

-No, no.

I'm just saying we need to take care,

because it's happened with Gwent Police this week.

A policeman was sacked, and he had a terrible time because the press

had picked up on the story, and so we need to take care.

-Ann, thank you very much. I can't take care.

-I only have two minutes.

-You.

-It is terrible that we are discussing such

a thing in the first place.

I can summarise it for you in two proverbs.

"There is no medication for greed."

And more importantly for all of us here tonight,

-"The fish rots from the head down."

-Right, that is the message.

-What about you?

-Can we have an understanding of what has happened?

John says it was policy.

What really happened, that money came out, and how did it come out?

Thank you. Gwilym Phillips, quickly?

I understand that this meeting in 2011 took place in the

Chief Executive's office and that the Chief Executive was there

himself, taking part in the decision. That is terrible.

Is that true, John Davies?

He was there but he was not part of the decision. There is a difference.

I think it is a mistake.

The important events have been given a lot of media coverage

for months, for a year or two and the opposition

in Carmarthenshire has said that what happened is definitely wrong.

-Thank you very much. Dafydd Iwan.

-The auditor has made a decision.

There is no need to be careful any more. A major mistake has been made.

It was a way to avoid paying tax.

Did you know that seven local government Chief Executives

in Wales are paid more than the Prime Minister.

It is just greed. They want money without paying tax on it.

Panellists, thank you very much, and the audience as well.

The programme is over. Next week we'll be in Aberystwyth. Goodbye.