13/02/2014 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel tonight, the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire,

Glyn Davies.

The Ceredigion AM and the former Rural Affairs Minister, Elin Jones.

A member of the current Labour Government,

Natural Resources Minister, Alun Davies.

And to join the three politicians,

a lecturer specialising in politics, Dr Elin Royles.

Welcome to this week's Pawb a'i Farn.

We are still travelling whatever the weather.

For the next hour, we will be discussing matters

and there's plenty to talk about in Aberystwyth

with people from Ceredigion and they say they can't wait.

We have some sad news, we won't be broadcasting next week,

but we'll be back in two weeks from Brecon.

We have had several questions this week

and let's hope we can discuss a few of them.

Let's start with a question by Hywel Griffiths in the back.

What's your question?

After the storms and floods, is it time to accept that

we can't afford to live safely in certain areas?

Thank you. The question of the week.

After the storms and floods, is it time to accept that

we can't afford to live safely in certain areas?

Alun Davies?

How do you answer that question?

First of all, we must sympathise with those who've been suffering

and also we should be grateful to everybody who's been

working for communities wherever they are.

I have visited several communities which have

suffered during these storms and floods.

I've seen the work of the emergency services, NRW and local authorities.

Everybody has been working together and ensured that as communities,

we haven't suffered as badly as we might have.

I am going to be announcing a report in the morning

which has been looking at the Welsh coast

and looking at what has happened.

I think we need to be looking at protecting our communities better.

I understand the purpose of the question,

but at the moment I think it's important

to look after people and their homes and communities.

The lessons that have been learned

is that the investments we have made in Wales

have made sure that communities have been safer

because of this investment.

In Wales, we have not seen the same chaos as in England

and we have not seen the same kind of damage

that we have seen in England.

So you think more money should be spent,

or should we accept that we have to step back

just as a television programme suggested this week.

Places like Friog in Meirionnydd.

I think that programme was misleading.

Are you suggesting there aren't such plans?

Some councils are looking towards the future.

I am considering the situation.

I have not made any decisions as the programme suggested.

We have not cut back on flood investment

as they have done in England.

We have been investing and will continue to do so.

-I'll say this to you tonight...

-Quickly.

As a minister, I will ensure that flood defences are paid

for this year and next year

and every year until the next election.

We will continue to invest.

We have invested £240 million so far and there'll be European money.

We're going to continue to ensure safety across the country.

Elin Jones.

The weather we've seen over the last two months

and over the last few years has been terrible,

and unlike recent weather patterns.

I think everyone accepts that.

What surprises me is that it is not the same areas

which are affected every year.

Aberystwyth has had a bad time recently.

Ceredigion has been hit badly.

But these areas are not traditionally hit by bad weather.

We know of some areas, Borth is one.

Sea defences have been built in Borth and Aberaeron.

And it seems they have worked?

People give the impression that those defences have...

..have reinforced the sea defences.

So there is room to be look to defend Aberystwyth better

and the same in other places.

But at the same time, we need to look at taking steps

to lessen climate change because that is affecting us

but that is a long-term matter.

And we also need to look at how we control water levels in the rivers

which run off the mountains.

It flows from the Severn here right in to England.

We need to look at the way we work with farmers in those areas

to work on that land,

which will help to reduce the water

that comes down into the rivers.

Hywel, how do you answer this question as a geographer?

Do we need to work on the land, the highlands

to make sure that water doesn't come down so fast?

It does make sense and it will be more effective

to work on higher ground rather than as some people have suggested,

just dredging rivers,

which will lead to further problems in the long term.

Although they have been suggesting that in Somerset.

In the long term, that would create further problems.

We should look at the higher ground.

Thank you. Glyn Davies?

Like Alun, I sympathise with people

after what's happened,

but it's an interesting question.

But at the same time, I'm not prepared to say that it is time

to stop dealing with problems on the land.

I know things have been changing historically

and sometimes the sea takes away

some of the land throughout Britain.

But I think, it is the best way to deal

with this problem in Wales and in England.

The events that have happened in Somerset,

we've never seen anything like that before.

We haven't been dredging enough.

And also I want to see the effect on Plynlimon

and farms in Montgomeryshire

to stop water coming from the high ground.

We need to look at things like that and be very careful

and see what the best way forward is.

Elin Royles?

I'm not a politician on this panel,

so I think we need to be planning in the long term.

Politicians are thinking of political cycle.

There is a risk in thinking about that too much.

So you don't think Alun Davies is looking far enough into the future?

It's the nature of the job.

Climate change is actually here right now.

We've seen it in Wales over the past few yeas.

It's a terrible thing.

It's not something that just happens in Africa.

We need to adapt to climate change, plan into the future.

We have to make some brave decisions.

I'd say the plans by Gwynedd Council to pull back,

they are awful and they're painful

but those are the kinds of steps we need to take

to deal with the level of investment that's needed.

We need £135 million every year until 2035

and the level of investment that we need will only go up.

Can we protect everywhere?

But the other side of this is to allay fears.

Climate change doesn't just affect us in coastal areas.

We also have responsibility to work on this.

Have we been building too much on the land where we shouldn't have

-been building?

-Yes.

We've been building on flood planes.

We need to think again about planning

and be braver as politicians in terms of moving towards

renewable energy, and can I dare to mention wind power,

and preparing for change.

I don't think you can say that in Glyn Davies company!

I was surprised to hear the moratorium this week.

We need to have long-term vision.

Alun Davies, come back in.

Have planning laws been flouted too much since the days

when Carwyn Jones we in the job?

The rules have changed and were changed a few years ago.

So it was wrong as it was?

So it was wrong as it was?

The rules have changed and I think that has been acknowledged in Wales.

One of the things that I regret is going to meetings with Defra

where they denied that climate change is happening at all.

And ministers in England

wouldn't meet the Chief Scientist to discuss climate.

That's how it is over there.

In Wales we do accept that and we accept that climate change

is happening and we accept the responsibility.

We accept our responsibility to respond to that.

I agree with what Elin has said.

I hope in Wales that we are on the right track

and going in the right direction.

Seeing as we're in Aberystwyth, are you going to repair the promenade?

I hope so.

I agree with Elin, one of the things we need to do is look to the future

and make sure that the promenade, when it is rebuilt,

is stronger than it was two months ago.

Elin, quickly.

There was a promenade in Aberystwyth,

not defences against the storm that hit.

So having the defences could ruin the promenade?

We need to look at how to protect the promenade

and the town of Aberystwyth.

There is no question that it must be protected.

Aberystwyth can't fall into the sea.

If it's economically viable to do so, then it will be protected.

Some places like y Friog

are not going to be economically viable to protect.

We haven't made decisions like that.

Hang on, I need to hear from the audience.

We need to have a national discussion

before we make decisions like that.

Let's hear from the people of Aberystwyth.

I'm pleased that Alun has said everywhere will be protected.

I think the important point is about the different attitudes

and there isn't a single right answer.

In terms of dredging rivers,

I think it is an important thing to do in some places.

The same response isn't going to work everywhere.

Looking after the highlands and to try and keep the sea back

will only work in the short term.

With the weather we've had recently it won't have an effect

because all the highlands are saturated.

That means we need to look at dredging in lower areas.

The point is we forget quite quickly

that flooding has happened here before.

-Has it been as bad as this?

-Yes.

We've had more rain than we've had in the last 200 years.

The point is, it happened 200 years ago so it has happened before.

What about Vince?

You are a business owner in the town.

-Have you been affected by the floods?

-Yes.

They have had a great effect on Aberystwyth.

They've stopped people coming into Aberystwyth.

People aren't travelling as they should.

They should really dredge the rivers more.

I remember years ago I was with my grandfather.

They would dredge the river on his farm every three years

and they haven't done it for years.

The river levels are rising.

Some people have had their homes flooded in Talybont.

I was really lucky to avoid the floodwater

but a lot of home around me have been flooded.

What about you?

Alun walked Aberystwyth prom with me.

Fair play to him, he saw the devastation for himself.

As a county council, I think I speak for other councillors,

I want to thank the Assembly Government,

they are giving us money to repair the prom.

It isn't often that the Welsh Government gets praise from people.

I think we need to praise them for the fact that they are not only

rebuilding the prom but strengthening it.

We should put the message out that Aberystwyth is open,

-come here on holiday.

-Keith Morris.

We've got two questions here.

One is preventing water from flowing down the mountains

and hills to lower ground.

And the other question concerns protecting Aberystwyth

from these storms that we've had.

We need to improve the promenade defences,

but we need to protect the character of the promenade itself.

It is one of our biggest tourist attractions.

And money is needed for that.

Let's get a microphone over here.

I've suffered flooding in recent years

and I haven't seen any plans that would protect areas

that are lower down in the valley.

You think that's where it stems from?

I think that's part of the problem.

There isn't a simple solution to the problem,

because there are so many factors.

We understand that the weather is changing.

When there's a lot of rain, it collects in the hills

and runs down to the valley.

In the valley we can really suffer.

When there is a high tide and the water comes down,

it has to pool somewhere.

You in the back row.

To go back to the original question,

flooding can be caused by two factors.

One is high river levels as a result of high rain fall.

The second thing is

when sea breaches of the sea wall,

as we have seen in Ceredigion and Aberystwyth.

That's caused by higher sea levels.

As I see it, this issue concerns the second.

It isn't so much to do with the river levels.

If an area or town or whatever lies on low land,

which is at sea level or,

like some areas in Wales, below sea level,

we are going to reach the point where it is going to

be too expensive to defend them.

Final word, Penri James.

It all comes down to money.

When the storm hit Aberystwyth David Jones the Welsh Secretary

was quick to say there wouldn't be any extra money

to keep defending against flooding.

But when this happened on David Cameron's doorstep,

suddenly it's money no object.

I think Carwyn Jones was right this morning asking

what are the consequentials?

Is there more money coming to Wales?

On the radio, somebody said it is a case of

when the effluent reaches the affluent.

I need to get your response to that, Alun.

I've written to the Westminster Government

asking for consequentials but I haven't heard back yet.

-Do you think you'll get more money?

-Not from the Tories.

The thing is...

The Treasury said that this isn't new money that's coming in.

There are no consequentials but I need to have that confirmed to me.

I've also asked the Westminster Government

to bid to the EU Solidarity Fund.

A sentence, Elin Jones.

David Cameron said there money no object,

but there is no more money available even for people in England.

So nothing will come to Wales.

I think he is misleading,

because there are people who really are facing devastation right now.

This money will have to be pulled from somewhere else.

Glyn Davies, is David Cameron misleading people?

David Cameron has been in contact with Carwyn Jones.

They've been in communication.

And Alun Davies knows nothing about this?

I don't know.

I'm answering the question now.

Dai... David Cameron has said that if Carwyn Jones needs the Army

-in Wales to help, that's what he'll do.

-Did you just call him Dai?

He said that on the phone to Carwyn Jones

and they are working together.

It's important that the people in Aberystwyth

and in England learn lessons from this.

We need to make sure this doesn't happen again.

We don't need the Army here in Aberystwyth,

because the locals cleared it themselves.

Congratulating yourselves, fair play to you.

The second question from Lucy Scott?

Should tuition fees for students from Wales who choose to study

in England be paid for by the Welsh Government?

Thank you. Should tuition fees for Welsh students studying in England

-be paid for by the Welsh Government? Elin Royles.

-No.

And I'm amazed that Welsh universities

have stayed so quiet on the matter for so long.

We are in a situation where 20% more students...

There has been an increase over the past few years where

20% more students are going to England for their education

and Welsh universities are suffering as a result.

Of course, we are in a difficult situation.

Our main market are English students.

There are more English students coming to Wales

than the other way round.

But I think this perpetuates the lack of investment

in Welsh universities.

It takes money out of the system.

It affects the Welsh language.

We are missing out on students that could be studying here in Wales.

But aren't you differentiating between students

who want to study in England maybe in a better university.

But that's the student's decision.

What about the political priorities?

So we should give the student who comes to Wales

but not the student who goes to England?

I feel as though we should be paying the tuition fees for students

who stay in Wales,

because we've got a wider problem in terms of our economic situation.

We've also got a problem with emigrating.

And there's a brain drain that's going on.

It is really difficult to bring these students back to Wales.

We are seeing a reduction in the number of people studying in Welsh,

medical students and the number of students going to Cardiff.

Once they go to places like London or Liverpool

it's difficult to get them back. It is affecting our communities.

Where do you stand on this, Elin Jones?

Has there been a change of mind by Plaid Cymru?

I don't think students should have to pay for their tuition fees

-at all.

-But we're not in that situation.

So that's my standpoint.

Due to circumstances, we've had to introduce different policies

because of the market that exists between Welsh

and English universities and what's going on in Westminster.

At one point, we did have a policy

of only funding students who studied in Wales.

I remember that created its own problems.

Parents in Ceredigion were really cross with me, as their children

were forced to study courses like veterinary sciences.

But where do you stand on it now?

I think we are in a situation where we are seeing fees

reach £9,000 plus,

so in future we are going to have to consider change.

The Government is looking at this matter at the moment.

We might have a cross-party agreement

to see how sustainable this policy would be in the long term

and what needs to be done.

But you are not going to say that it is wrong that the

Welsh Government pays for students to study in England?

It is not wrong, because they benefit

and haven't had to face massive fees

as a result of having to take out loans of £9,000 a year.

So students from Wales and students raised in Wales

have benefitted from this policy.

-What's wrong about that?

-Of course, people have benefitted from this.

-But not Welsh universities.

-No, not Welsh universities.

I accept that there are weaknesses in this policy.

One of those weaknesses is the fact that English universities

have been marketing themselves really hard in Wales

in order to attract students from Wales.

I'll come back to the two Davies' in a moment.

We've got hands up everywhere in the audience.

Let's start with you.

I think the problem here is this £9,000 tuition fee

that is being raised in Westminster.

It will make it very difficult for students

especially those from poorer backgrounds.

But we can't go backwards.

We've got a different policy in Wales and I think it is fair

and will allow Welsh students can get the best

education possible, whether it be in Wales or elsewhere in Britain.

-So you support it as a Labour councillor?

-Yes.

I think perhaps we are looking at this in an economically skewed

perspective. It's too much about profit and loss.

We are looking at the future of these students.

If I move about 100km over the border,

then my future isn't as important to the Welsh Government.

So you think the policy as it stands is right?

-Yes, of course.

-What about you?

I disagree with this policy.

On the basis that people are going to England if we stay in Wales,

we support the local economy.

We support the cafe, the pubs, we support everything.

Whereas somebody who moves to Newcastle

isn't supporting the Welsh economy in the same way as we do

staying in Wales.

But don't you think that students studying in Newcastle

should have the same opportunity as you in Aberystwyth?

Everyone deserves...

Or do you think they should be punished as a result of their move?

It depends on whether the course is available here in Wales.

I think it is fair enough to go to England for a course

that isn't available in Wales.

If they want to study something like veterinary science, fair enough.

I was in university in the '90s and at that time there were grants.

A long time ago.

Most of my friends, as well as myself,

went to university in England.

I'm the only one that's returned to Wales.

I'm sure that speaks volumes about the effect this has.

They've great jobs most of them

but they've all stayed in London or Liverpool or other places like that.

So you think it's a mistake? Back two rows.

The National Students Union of Wales is looking at this

and they'll respond to the government too.

But we also need to look at non-traditional students,

mature students and those from further education colleges

to see how this is affecting them.

But there is another question.

Why are they crossing over in the first place?

Are schools doing enough to keep them in Wales?

We are seeing councils in places like Merthyr closing services.

But there could be departments in England

that are better than departments here.

That's fair, you want to attend the best place.

We've heard recently that fewer students are applying to Oxford

and Cambridge.

They decide to go to other colleges because they're better.

I think we've got enough in Wales.

Let's move on.

I just want to agree with the last speaker that we shouldn't pay.

The NHS have a scheme for dentist.

If they agree to work in North Wales for four years after they graduate,

they get money which helps them in their studies.

I think we should be looking more at specific subjects

-and they should be reimbursed.

-Thank you.

I don't agree with that policy.

The worst thing is that it shows the lack of ambition

that we have in Wales.

People say that we should be paying for our students to go to England.

Why don't we have better departments in Wales?

How about you two?

The Welsh Government needs to be more careful how they spend money

on higher education.

Either they decide to invest more money to attract the best

lecturers here in Wales and to keep Welsh students in Wales or not.

Behind you. You look like a lecturer but I'm probably wrong.

I look like a headmaster!

It's authority!

Elin mentioned the brain drain.

We have a brain drain from rural Wales.

We produce fantastic young people who are leaving rural Wales.

Shouldn't we be making sure we have jobs to keep them

in Wales rather than sending them into England to look for work?

The problem is, if we pay for students to go to England,

is our education here in Wales going to suffer

if the money that should be given to Welsh universities

-is going to other universities.

-Good question.

Let's move over to the panel. Glyn Davies?

I remember when the policy came in in 2010.

It was very unpopular.

Students were very worried.

I was worried at the time that Wales was going in a different direction.

What I want to see is students going to university

that suits them best.

That's what I'm most worried about.

Also, a new policy.

I'm also worried about the future of universities in Wales.

I think they are under threat.

If they don't receive enough money,

then I think they'll go down the table worldwide.

And in the end the Government in the Assembly

will change the policy.

Possibly after the next election.

A review is taking place at the moment.

Where do you stand in this, Alun Davies?

A review is taking place at the moment into the policy's impact.

I don't agree with fees in principle

but we have to deal with the reality as it stands.

I don't want to be in a position where we force students

to stay in Wales against their will.

I don't think Elin is in favour of that.

If they want to go, they can go.

Yes, but without any money.

If you're rich, you have the choice,

but if not, you have no choice.

I think everybody should have the same choice.

I stayed in Wales for my higher education

and I'm hoping that my children will do the same.

I want them to have the choice and that's the most important thing?

What about what this lady said?

-All her friends went to England and stayed there.

-That was their choice.

We shouldn't build walls around Wales.

Higher education is more and more international.

We need to compete in the modern world.

If we don't do, then we turn our backs on the world.

But you are in favour of the present situation?

-Of course I am.

-So in spite of this review, you add in favour?

I voted for it.

Obviously I support it, but we must make sure that the policy

develops with time and let me say that there are more

students from England coming to Wales than the other way round,

so more money is coming in from the Westminster Government to

Wales then we pay to English universities.

But the Welsh universities are complaining.

There is a discrepancy in funding at the moment between English

universities and Welsh universities

and that is because of intended developments that are stopping

a cap on numbers attending English universities

and also stopping the capping on fees in England.

That is going to increase this gap.

We need quality universities in Wales

but we must have the investment to realise that.

At the moment we need to strengthen that investment.

That is all for the moment. Join us after the break.

Welcome back. You are watching Pawb A'i Farn from Aberystwyth.

Our next question is from Trevor Pugh. What is your question, please?

Alun Davies has said that he wants to see farmers making

a profit without any subsidies.

-What effect would that have on rural to Wales?

-Let's ask the minister.

Alun Davies wants to see farmers making a profit without any

subsidies. What effect would that have on rural Wales?

Did you say that?

No, I didn't. I said the subsidies are going down at the moment.

They will continue to be reduced over time.

Reduced to nothing?

I don't think Pillar 1 will completely disappear.

But the value of Pillar 1 will reduce with time.

We are seeing that at the moment and it happens all over Europe.

Irish farmers were protesting last week when I was in Dublin -

not against me personally!

Is it happening faster in Wales because of your attitude?

No, what is happening is that the agricultural industry

must have a future where we can invest in the future.

I am going to announce next Monday our biggest ever Rural Development Plan.

We are going to ensure that we invest

something like £100 million a year in the future of rural Wales

and the economy of rural Wales and the agricultural economy in general.

What will the money be spent on?

If we don't do that,

if we ignore what is going on with Pillar 1,

and reduce subsidies, we are going to walk into the future

without any hope of protecting the future of agriculture.

As a minister, I am not going to do that.

I'm going to make sure that we do invest in these businesses.

We have been paying out subsidies for 70 years

and we have no industry resilient enough to stand on its own two feet.

We have to ensure that farmers and the agricultural economy

can withstand what is going to happen in the future.

If we don't do that, we are keeping our heads in the sand

and the industry is going to be destroyed.

What does the former minister think?

There is a reason why subsidies exist in the agricultural

sector, not just because farmers deserve it.

It exists because the food market does not work as a free market.

Increasingly so, as the big supermarkets are the only

buyers of produce.

And we have a great number of people trying to sell into that market.

That is why subsidies exist.

They exist all over Europe and they have to exist here in Wales

so that our farmers can continue to produce food

and to compete with farmers in Europe.

What has angered our farmers in Wales

and with which I do not agree, is to modulate at the greatest possible

level and cut the 15% of payments made directly to farmers.

-I would not have done that.

-But you agree with his long-term aims?

I don't agree that the free market works for agriculture

and I can't see that changing in the mid-term,

with this move towards big supermarkets.

I do think that there is value

and an opportunity for farmers in Wales where we have good

agricultural land and plenty of water to profit from that in future.

I'm sorry, Elin. Trevor Pugh?

It's important that the money comes directly to farmers

because farmers are investing locally and spending locally.

If you take it out of Pillar 1 and into Pillar 2, there is

no certainty that the money will come back into rural Wales.

Alun Davies has not made an announcement yet.

80% of this billion pounds is going straight to farmers.

It is going straight to farmers

and this is the biggest investment in the agricultural industry ever.

Farmers?

You say 80% of this Pillar 2 money is going to come back.

When consultants visit farmers, costing £500 a day,

to tell us what to do, and most of them have no idea what to do,

you have taken away 15% of our money.

That is 15% loss straightaway.

England is only on 12%, so they are 3% better off straightaway.

-Welshpool market with Glyn.

-Wait a second. Finish quickly.

Welshpool market.

When a Welsh farmer goes there to sell his stock,

an English farmer gets 3% more straightaway for his stock.

We cannot compete.

I remember you saying to us back in November, Mr Davies,

that you didn't want to be the politician to do to rural

Wales what politicians did to the coal mines in the 1980s.

Well, you are going the right way about it.

Why has France only marginally at 3%, Germans 4%,

the Irish nothing at all,

and you have taken as much money as possible out of rural Wales.

-You are what Judas was to the Christians.

-Absolute nonsense.

Irish beef...

Ireland has not modulated at all.

Beef comes into Ireland at £3.30 a kilo.

We have £3.60 8K.

We have no hope of competing against Ireland

and in the next few years, it is going to be very difficult for us.

The back row.

I'm talking from experience.

You talk about reducing subsidies to farmers.

I am an agricultural engineer and I sell machines

and tractors to farmers.

We are based in West Wales and we've had farmers pulling

out of contracts and cancelling four tractors because of these cuts.

That has a knock-on effect for everybody.

It's a risk to my job as an engineer.

We have a cleaning woman in work and we've had to let her go

because we don't have enough money in the pot.

She goes home and she can't pay the milkman because she has no work.

The milkman can't pay his bills and goes out of business

and so on and so on.

Over to you.

We have to remind you who owns most of Wales, the farmer.

We must also remind you as well who keeps the Welsh language

alive in rural Wales. I was talking to a farmer who told me that perhaps

he was going to lose 80% of his subsidies in highland Wales.

His problem is that he can't keep his children home

and what will happen to the industry?

-Thank you very much. Back one row.

-I just wanted to agree with Wyn.

We are very net importer of meat into Britain.

I'm talking specifically about beef.

We are competing with countries who have not gone for the 15% margin.

We know when beef comes from Ireland or Poland very recently,

it suppresses the market price in this country. That's what happens.

We're not on a level playing field in Europe.

It's not a level European system.

Back to you.

Alun Davies has told us

as farmers that 13% of money is coming from Europe.

As Welsh highland farmers, we are

going to suffer losses between 60% and 80%,

because he decided to penalise highland areas over 400 metres

and on top of that,

while consultations were being held in October, the 400 metre line

was not mentioned, nor was the 20 per hectare either.

So what good is a national consultation at great cost

-when nobody listens to anything.

-And nothing works?

Alun can answer in a minute. Glyn Davies, as a former farmer yourself?

We've had the same discussion in England as well.

Over the last year, I have been trying to persuade ministers not

to move 15% from the single payments to environmental payments.

He was very glad that he had done so.

Only 12% have moved in England

and they also said that in three years' time, it is

possible that it will go up to 50% but they want to see

what happens in agriculture and also worthwhile proposals.

I'm disappointed in what Alun Davies has said?

If something worthwhile happens with the Government in London...

I was very pleased to hear that because to be honest,

I was expecting. The problem is, we know what is happening.

The way money is going.

It moves from going straight, to going to some

sort of circumstances, helping the environment.

But it is important to move slowly enough,

-to not give the farmers in Britain some kind of...

-Elin Royles.

I must say that I am not a farmer

but I know how important rural Wales is and farmers,

and what ordinary people like us can do is buy more from farmers, buy as

locally as we can and buy more from them to try and promote the economy.

Alun Davies, a chance to answer all those points

but perhaps above all, the point about farmers not being able

to be competitive enough because of the money you have set aside.

The fact is that Irish meat imports have

fallen 44% during the last few months, so that is not true.

But when you look at the present system, some farmers

receive 100 euros a hectare and others receive 300-400 euros a hectare.

People know this. Is that fair? Of course it isn't fair.

We are introducing a system that nobody has complained about.

They agree with it.

People are talking about 15% which is moved from one

Pillar to another Pillar.

This enables us to invest in the industry for the future.

Pillar 1 is going to drop in value this year, next year

and the following year.

We're going to lose about 20% of the value of Pillar 1 by 2020.

Are we going to do nothing, sit back,

fight for 15% of money which is reducing,

or are we going to use this money to invest in the future

and invest in new agricultural businesses for the future.

That is the choice we have. I'm going to invest.

If you don't want money, you don't have to take it.

That's it. No chance for you to respond, I'm afraid.

We should dedicate a whole programme to agriculture

but for the moment time for some adverts.

Join us again after the break.

Welcome back to Aberystwyth. One more question, from Dafydd Thomas.

Bronglais hospital is very important to us in Ceredigion.

Does the centralising of health services in specialist

-hospitals improve the care for patients in this area?

-Thank you.

Brandeis hospital is important to us in Ceredigion.

Does the centralising of health services in specialist

hospitals improve the care for patients in this area? Elin Jones.

The first thing to say is that people in Ceredigion are used

to going to specialist hospitals for specialist care, cancer,

cardiac and so on to Morrison and Cardiff and we are used to doing so.

The argument about the future of Bronglais is whether it will be

there to save people's lives, to perform emergency operations

and Caesarean operations for pregnant mothers

and to save people's lives when they need such operations.

-So that's the question.

-On what are your fears based?

Health Minister Mark Drakeford said two weeks ago,

very unexpectedly, that his choice would be to centralise

maternity care, and be led by consultants in Glangwili.

That is of great concern to the population, not just of

Ceredigion, but also of Montgomery and Gwynedd, who rely on Bronglais.

The argument for Bronglais is unique in Wales

because this is the only hospital between the A55 and the A4

and it is important to save lives in those earlier.

But they have invested £30 million in the hospital

so that there is no suggestion that things are going to get much worse.

The hospital is not going to close

but it needs to have those core services which save lives

and allow the hospital to offer a full service.

It is not possible to transport people in helicopters in this

kind of weather, nor in an emergency to Glangwili in time to save lives.

This matter of safeguarding emergency services is crucial.

I am one of those people who has had emergency surgery in a hospital.

Those theatres need to be upgraded.

At Bronglais can't attract the quality to the hospital.

The problem is, they haven't really tried very hard.

Whenever a gap comes up, they centralise

services in Carmarthen to the whole process has been bad.

Also, mental health care.

That ward has closed and we don't talk enough about those kinds of things.

Consider a family with a patient who has mental health issues

and they have to travel to Carmarthen.

How does it affect the family?

What about people when they have the extra cost of travelling?

Let's turn to the audience. Gareth Davies?

I work in Bronglais hospital and it is a constant battle

for mid Wales to ensure services in Bronglais hospital.

The Hywel Dda University Health Board always tries to

centralise things in Carmarthen.

They forget that Bronglais serves a large area of mid Wales.

The Labour Party in Cardiff want to centralise everything.

We regularly hear that Ceredigion is to disappear quite soon

and join Pembrokeshire

so the services are getting further away from mid Wales all the time.

Ceredig Davies?

People in this area are very frustrated with what the

health board are doing in Bronglais.

As a council in December, we took a vote of no confidence

in the health board and we wrote to Mark Drakeford and

he came back to us and said that we should be dealing with this locally.

We wouldn't have written to him

if it was something that we could deal with locally.

Then they said they won't meet us as a council

unless we meet councillors behind closed doors.

That is not good enough.

They should have the confidence to come and tell us

exactly what future of Bronglais is.

-The back row.

-The Chief Executive of Hywel Dda earns £170,000 a year.

He didn't turn up to meet the public in Ceredigion.

As well as that, we understand that he is not answerable to the

Welsh Government.

They make these decisions about centralisation of services.

We have superb nurses and doctors in Aberystwyth

and we have a very good services. Why can't we upgrade the hospital?

Glyn Davies, concisely, please.

Bronglais is important to Montgomeryshire as well

and South Gwynedd.

There are people there from Llanidloes and Machynlleth.

It's very important for them.

What I want to see is every service possible in Bronglais.

I know we can't have everything. It costs too much but we need more...

Everything possible in Aberystwyth, in Bronglais.

-Because it is too far to go to other hospitals.

-Thank you, Glyn.

I'll have to give Alun 30 seconds.

We are talking about this all over Wales as we're modernising

the health service. We discussed this in my area this afternoon.

We have to have the best possible services all over

Wales and that's crucial.

That's why we're investing in Bronglais right now

and we're going to ensure that we have the best possible

specialist services for people all over Wales.

Alun Davies, thank you very much.

And the audience here in Aberystwyth, thank you for your company.

Next week my place will be taken by Jonathan. See you in two weeks.