27/02/2014 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this evening, former Wales outside half,

Gareth Davies, Felix Aubel of the Conservative Party, former Plaid

Cymru Adam Price and former Welsh language Commissioner, Mary Hughes.

Welcome to the programme. We are in Powys this evening.

We are visiting Brecon. It's great to be here.

It's a historic town. We are at the local leisure centre.

Thank you for joining us.

Next week, we'll be in Pwllheli for the final show of the series

and you are welcome to get in touch.

The address is on the screen. Our first question.

From the back row, please.

Following on from the results of the last census,

is there too much emphasis placed on safeguarding

the rights of Welsh speakers, rather than promoting its use?

Thank you very much. Following on from the results of the last census,

is there too much emphasis placed on safeguarding

the rights of the Welsh speakers, rather than promoting its use?

Let me start with you, Felix.

We have spent millions trying to safeguard the language

through a Welsh language Act

and the census figures show that the numbers are falling.

Something is wrong.

For a language to succeed, it must be alive.

It must be used in homes

and in everyday life.

There has been an experiment in the Republic of Ireland

and that's proved that the more you try to safeguard the language

with legislation,

people see it as irrelevant.

They see it as part of the academic world

and the middle class world.

I remember it being said years ago that you can't safeguard

a language through legislation,

you have to promote a language.

I think it would be better if the money that is being

spent on legislating and on ensuring that legislation is implemented,

is spent on classes to teach people to use the language

in our chapels, our pubs,

our schools, rather than gathering dust.

What about the rights?

Are you ignoring our rights as Welsh speakers

to receive different services?

Unfortunately, Welsh speak speakers don't use these rights.

Look at the NHS Direct, for example.

The figures were published a fortnight ago

saying that bilingual languages were provided.

Around 1% of those people phoning NHS Direct

were using the Welsh service.

I know from my experience in Carmarthen,

all these pamphlets,

paying different bills and so on,

over 90% of Welsh speakers fill the forms in English.

I'm not saying that's a good thing but that's the reality.

Let me speak to the Welsh Language Commissioner, Meri Hughes.

What about it?

You wouldn't be surprised that I disagree with Felix.

It would be a strange thing if we said that we didn't need

rights for children, rights for older people

and in the same way,

it would be odd to say that we don't need language rights.

It's important in creating confidence and that leads to use.

We don't use the language because we don't have the confidence.

We have lived in a situation for five centuries where it was

not an official language in Wales, but today, it is official.

It is an official language and it has been for two years.

Let's build on those foundations.

But the numbers speaking Welsh has fallen,

despite legislation.

Over the centuries,

people in Wales were speaking Welsh without legislation.

The most important right is the responsibility of Welsh language

parents to transfer the language from one generation to the next.

What is sad and I acknowledge the point, is that you have

one in four or one in five parents, Welsh-speaking parents

who for some reason do not transfer the language to the child.

That's vitally important if you want to save the language.

The people need to save it, not through legislation.

And it's not a contest.

Legislation is extremely important to create that confidence.

Use is also important.

We need to look at why people aren't using

the language in different situations

but a lack of legislation won't change that situation.

Are our priorities right?

I think we need to move hand-in-hand, rights and use.

When I look at the results of the census,

I'm disappointed with the situation.

What is happening?

What about Felix's line? Wasting money on translations?

Since when is translating and using the Welsh language a waste of time?

The Welsh people don't use them.

The Welsh people are voting with their feet.

Either the translations are too complicated for them

or they choose to fill these forms in English.

If someone wants a Welsh form, they can ask for a form

but if you send out thousands of forms,

people don't use them and it's a waste of money.

Why should we have to ask for forms?

Shouldn't it be something we receive naturally?

That's why people don't use Welsh forms.

They think, do I have the right to ask for it?

It's easier not to. I don't want to upset anyone.

The individual should be free to choose.

Feel free to applaud. That's acceptable.

Perhaps I should be a politician.

I can see both sides.

-Sitting on the fence!

-We need a framework

and over the years there's been a framework put in place.

We should be promoting the language.

or should we look at complaints?

Promoting it, I think.

So you're more with Felix than with Mary?

I think the problem is that if you go with the minority,

then there is a chance that you are isolating the majority.

The Welsh language needs goodwill from non-Welsh speakers.

I'm sure Mary wouldn't disagree with that. Adam Price?

It's no surprise that I would agree more with Mary

than with Felix.

But it's nice to hear you speaking nonsense, Felix,

with such a rich command of the Welsh language.

Legislation is vital as a basis but it's not enough.

It will not save the language.

I agree with what's behind the question.

The period of emphasising rights is over.

That battle has been won.

The next thing is to use the language in our communities.

There's a lot of work to be done.

Economic futures of these areas,

you're talking about people voting with their feet.

People have to leave these Welsh-speaking communities

because of a lack of work.

Hopefully we'll see S4C moving to Carmarthen.

We need jobs in the West and without jobs,

people cannot afford to live in these areas.

What about the right to use the Welsh language in these

counties in schools?

You need the jobs.

Is the battle over?

No, I don't think so.

I think there is a lack of rights in this area as far as education provision.

One thing I see daily is pensions from London,

benefits from London,

the UK Government saying, no,

we don't need to do that in Welsh.

That battle isn't over.

We need to keep going.

This emphasis on rights has turned into an obsession.

And that is turning people against the language.

They want to see the language being used every day,

not this technical language.

It's part of the middle class, that's what's turning people off.

What I meant was the argument for making it,

giving it equal status, has been won.

In theory.

I won't disagree with the Commissioner.

Let me ask one thing.

These rights are what your job is about - right, Meri?

No. Rights are important.

The official status of the language in 2011...

But what about the promotion that the Welsh Language Board...

This is still part of our work from day-to-day.

It has as much emphasis as ever before.

There's a lot more focus on this work now.

I'll return to the panel later. A good start.

Gwen, you asked the question?

I think we should promote the use of the language, especially education.

I come from an area where I've received Welsh medium education

and, although the education is fantastic, I don't feel that I

have enough opportunity to speak the language outside of the classroom.

Unfortunately, I don't think that the council will provide

Welsh schools in the future.

Is that right? We are talking about rights here.

The most important rights that we need as young people who can

speak Welsh in this county is the right to a Welsh education,

in a Welsh school.

I'm very pleased to be a sixth form pupil

but considering I live in the biggest county in Wales,

isn't it awful that I have to travel

over the border to go to a Welsh school?

Education doesn't stop in the classroom

and being a pupil in a Welsh community is part of a Welsh school,

family, where everyone appreciates our culture

and language is important

and provides us an opportunity to promote the language

and it's very sad that there are people here, young people,

Welsh speakers,

who are being ignored and are losing out on those opportunities.

Does that mean you travel quite a distance to school?

Around an hour in the morning.

And we feel luck lucky, it's a postcode lottery.

We are close enough to be able to go to this Welsh school

but not everyone can.

In a time of cuts, maybe the council would say there's not the demand?

It's the closure of rural schools

that's to blame.

I have a question.

I thought you were going to contribute to this discussion.

We need to ensure that there is provision for bilingual services.

There have been cutbacks in Powys.

Children have to travel to schools in other counties,

as has been mentioned.

Glyn Powell.

I have a quick comment.

Why aren't the regions doing more for the Welsh language?

These rugby teams are very English.

An announcement: "Oh, 30-8 for so-and-so."

That's all you'll get.

But this isn't being practical.

I wanted to put some money aside

for my children, my grandchildren,

with National Savings and I had a letter back saying

they didn't provide a Welsh service.

But we need enthusiastic teachers.

We are relying on Welsh learn learners.

We all have to become tutors.

We shouldn't belittle learners.

We have no patience.

How many of you write cheques in Welsh?

If you don't, it's just idle talk.

So you agree with Felix?

In some ways. We have rights.

Legislation and rights has been important

and the fact that we are in a healthier situation is a good thing.

But we've seen examples of young people tonight who've been

through the Welsh system that we have in Powys.

But as well as trying to develop Welsh education

and Welsh schools, we've also developed a system or we should

develop a system where they can use the language outside of schools.

Is that difficult in Powys?

That is difficult.

There are examples of how young people

can get together to socialise.

The same thing could have happened with the Welsh Lang language.

We need to emphasise, not only on education

but also what they do outside of school.

That's an argument we often hear.

I'll return to the back row.

I'm lucky.

I went to a Welsh school,

but what I feel is it's difficult to use the language outside our school.

I went to the local medical centre

and it was difficult to get a Welsh language service.

Why is it such an unusual thing to be able to use the language

and feel comfortable using it?

It shouldn't just be used in the classroom.

I'll approach the panel.

I know you're keen to answer, Meri.

Can I thank those who've spoken.

That's why we need to keep fighting and insist on our rights.

I was in court last week

challenging National Savings on that.

I think a balance is important.

To keep the Welsh language alive,

we need to promote it on a practical level.

That's more important than any legislation.

What about the language in Powys, Adam Price?

I remember reading a paper saying that you needed to

concentrate on west Wales.

Are you forgetting these people?

Certainly not.

We need different strategies for different parts of Wales.

Different areas' needs are different.

It's clear we need improved provision for Welsh language

education in Powys.

In other parts, there are different matters.

The needs are going to be different

and we need different debates to reflect that.

We'll take a short break.

Welcome back.

We are in Brecon this evening.

Let's go to the next question.

Welsh county councils are having to make difficult decisions

regarding cuts.

What would you cut?

Thanks very much.

Welsh county councils are currently having to make difficult

decisions regarding cuts.

We hear about this more or less every day.

What would you cut?

I'll start with Adam Price this time.

It's a difficult situation.

I would argue that we should not be in this situation.

It's due to the financial settlement from England that's cutting back

unnecessarily considering the economic situation,

but there we are, that is the situation.

Councils have been meeting tonight to discuss the cutbacks.

Isn't the fact that the economy is strengthening

proving that these moves are vital?

There is a wider argument.

I think there is a consensus in Wales

that it is foolish

to endanger the growth in the economy by cutting back

on Public Services,

but there we are, that's the situation we find ourselves in.

I think we can be more creative.

The first thing I would do is cut back on the wages

of senior officials.

We have seen a number of scandals in Wales.

I don't want to libel anyone, unlike we have seen in some councils,

no-one will pay my legal costs.

We have seen a situation

where the people at the top who do not

really add any value receive these high wages.

I would also look at merging services,

bring health and social services together.

It makes sense.

You can then deliver a better service.

There are savings to be made.

So for the reorganisation...

This has been happening in Northern Ireland for 30 years

and there's evidence that it's meant an increase for the people.

And it makes it more cost-effective.

Look at Estonia, a small country, using new technology

in a creative manner to provide a better service and save money.

So there are things that can be done.

I'm not a Tory by any stretch of the imagination,

but some councils which have Tory members have managed to avoid

cutting back on services

because they've been preparing

for two years speaking to the people,

asking the people.

It's a question for the people.

What can we do differently to safeguard core services

that are important to the area

while also saving money?

Adam praising the Conservatives.

I'm very pleased to hear that.

I agree with the principle.

It's awful that any Chief Executive of the council receives

a higher wage than the First Minister or the Prime Minister.

Everyone seems to agree on that.

There are too many pen-pushers, administrators,

rather than those front-line workers

and on top of that,

I would say what

is vitally important is that there are too many councils in Wales.

We need to cut the numbers down to six or seven.

I know that a number of councillors do excellent work,

but we could also halve the number of councillors in Wales.

Many of the rural wards in the west and the north,

you have areas with a low population

and you have so many councillors

that two or three could do the job,

of six or seven councillors

so there is room to cut back.

I would like to go to the audience but Adam says it's a

consensus that that is not the economic policy needed.

We need to act and anyone with a credit card would say that

if you borrow more money when you are in debt, you go bankrupt.

We don't want to be the next, Greece, Portugal or Spain.

George Osborne is bringing us economic stability.

We are all in this together.

That's not the first time that Felix has talked about the consensus.

Sandra, where are you?

There are some very important ideas

and I'm pleased to hear the public's rights being considered

because it would be a bad thing if we lost services, education,

leisure centres and provision for the elderly so thank you.

Rod Stallard?

We need to step back

and look at where the resources of this country are used.

The Government is willing to spend money on nuclear weapons

and wars and,

if we cut back on those,

maybe we could continue with the necessary services.

I agree with the nuclear weapons.

Who is ever going to use them?

We are talking about all these millions on Trident

and whose finger is on the button?

The President of America. It's nothing to do with us.

I must answer that.

War is an awful thing, so are nuclear weapons,

but because of the balance of power between the old Soviet Union

and NATO in Western Europe, nuclear weapons ensure that we have

peace in Europe following the Second World War.

I would add that if nuclear weapons were in the Ukraine today,

would Russia be threatening to attack?

If you have nuclear weapons, the bully doesn't threaten you.

I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine fighting for freedom

and Russia, the bully, attacking them.

I don't want to have a debate on nuclear weapons right now.

Nuclear weapons is the bully itself.

It stopped wars because if there were nuclear weapons on one

side and nuclear weapons on the other,

then both sides are too afraid to press the button.

It's a deterrent.

What about the cuts in Powys?

We didn't have an answer this week.

I signed a petition protesting

about the way Powys was intending

to close units for children

on intensive care units and integrate.

But they changed their minds because of the pressure put on them.

Also, these day centres for the elderly where

they come for the day for company and so on,

they are going to increase the prices from £6 a day

to £36 a day.

But cutbacks need to be made.

But those kinds of cutbacks

are against the weakest in society.

The authority should be looking into saving money

within the council.

Back to the audience.

I find it daft really that we have 22 local authorities

looking after three million people.

Obviously that will change.

You look at the health boards, there are seven.

It needs to follow that sort of pattern.

The problem is that the people affected most

are the weakest in society.

The elderly and the poor.

Years ago, communities were stronger

and if you had problems,

then people would help.

I think that we have moved backwards that aspect.

Life has changed.

There isn't that support.

We often read about the elderly, for example,

maybe without any contact with people for days on end.

I think this may make things worse.

There are cutbacks in our budget.

We are going through the same process.

So are other bodies.

I want to go back to the previous point.

Vulnerable people, the young, the elderly, what worries me

sitting here as the Welsh Language Commissioner is the need that

some people see to make cuts for Welsh

because there is certainly

a debate taking place on that, providing services in English.

If you want to safeguard services, where would you cut?

Where would the axe fall?

This is a disastrous situation and we don't want to see any cutbacks.

I think Gareth's put his finger on it and we need to look at society.

We also need to look at the voluntary sector.

There are some things where Government

on a local and national level should be providing.

There are things we should be doing as a society.

I think a more positive way for us

to have this debate is to say

what do we want to protect,

what do we want to provide, as far as vital services?

Where will the state provide

and where can we then provide voluntarily?

Through a combination of that, I think, even facing this

situation, at least we can protect

what we all think is important.

We have to go for another break.

Welcome back.

We are in Brecon this evening.

We are having a lively night of debate.

Time now for our third question.

Does the panel agree that the Welsh Rugby Union

and the regions must cooperate

in order to secure a successful future for the game in Wales?

There we are.

We have got the perfect man here to answer that question.

I'm the secretary of Brecon RFC.

Does the panel agree that the Welsh Rugby Union

and the regions must cooperate in order to secure a successful future?

I'm sure that the entire panel would say that is true.

A couple of years ago,

there was a survey into the situation

and it's something that cost around £60,000.

The only conclusion from the report

was that the regions and the union need to cooperate.

There were a number of other options considered -

should we have more regions, fewer regions?

The problem now with all this rowing

that's been going on,

is the fact that any trust between

the unions and the regions has been destroyed.

I think what sparked it all off was the statement

that the regions had to sign up

before the end of last year

and if we didn't, the four regions would go.

I think that was tactically foolish

and I think there was a feeling

that the regions would sign.

You blame Roger Lewis?

I don't know if it was Roger.

I would blame the Chief Executive of the board.

He obviously leads the way

but I think it was the board's responsibility to

solve the problem, not start making threats.

Three days after the deadline,

there was another arrangement.

So the relationship has been affected.

There's a lot of confusion.

Do you understand what's going on?

I have an idea.

The situation is that the WRU are not willing to give up

any control,

so they control everything but the regions are taking the risk.

We have to employ the players.

Ron, are you worried about the future of rugby?

Yes and I feel there's posturing from both sides,

the regions and the union.

Including Gareth?

Well, everyone agreed that we need to work together.

But there are a lot of problems with central contracts.

The union says that that's the way forward, the regions say no.

At some point they need to work together.

The central contract, it's a bit of a red herring.

What we need to establish first

is what competitions we are playing in.

It's March on Saturday

and we don't know what we're doing in four or five months' time.

So for the players, the sponsors, the regions,

we have no idea what we are doing next year.

What about you - who do you represent?

Llandovery Rugby Club.

To be fair to Gareth, he hasn't been in the job long.

I would say that I think the regions

are the jigsaw that doesn't really work in Wales.

The Welsh team's been successful,

the youth teams are enjoying success,

but what I would like to ask is

representing of the Principality League.

We have to give a three-year business plan to the

Welsh Rugby Union and I see a lot of money being wasted going

to overseas players, people on high wages

and I just wonder if you have to provide the Welsh rugby

with a plan so there is some transparency as to where the money is being spent.

I don't want to scrap this

but I think things have to change, they haven't been successful.

Adam Price, you enjoy rugby?

Yes, of course. I'm from the Amman Valley.

I don't have a choice.

But looking at it from the outside, I agree,

the regional experiment,

although I think it was the right aim,

hasn't been a success so far,

if we look at the Irish provinces and regions.

Maybe there are different reasons.

Graham Henry came up with the idea and what he wanted to do

was have the same model as Ireland where they were part

of the union and these rows would not be taking place

because there would be a pattern and a structure

with four divisions in a way, sub-regions.

Maybe we should be looking at that model.

Defending the regions,

they have developed these players for the national side.

As far as wasting money on overseas players,

it's a shame that we haven't the same situation as Ireland

right from the start.

You look at Ireland now and Ulster, for example,

make a big South African signing and it works out.

If I pretended to express an opinion about this situation,

most of my family and friends would know that I was lying

because I don't know what's going on.

But the impression I get by looking from the outside is that the

Union has lost all connection with the supporters and the communities.

The way it deals with the Welsh language,

or the way it doesn't deal with the Welsh language at the moment,

shows it is behaving like an American-like company

living in some cocoon in the middle of Cardiff

and it has lost that connection and I think that's a disgrace.

Thank you. Felix? You look like a former player!

As someone who has played a lot of rugby in the past,

in school and in college,

I'm very concerned about the situation.

Gareth has outlined the situation.

He is the expert

and I think it's best to let the experts sort things out.

Fair enough. You can have the last word on this, Gareth.

Is it a concern that so many people

flood to watch Cardiff and Swansea play football?

I know that some rugby supporters have gone in that direction.

It is certainly a competition, but life is a competition.

We can't afford to fall out, as we are doing,

because all we're doing is ensuring that more people

go to watch football instead of following rugby.

We have one more question before the end of the programme

and it comes from Meinir Jones.

The Standard Life company has announced today

that it could leave Scotland if the country becomes independent.

How much of a blow is an announcement like this

to the campaign in favour of independence?

The Standard Life company has announced it could leave Scotland

if it becomes independent.

How much of a blow is an announcement like this to the campaign in favour of independence?

Let's begin with you, Meri.

It's interesting to watch this process.

We heard about the row over the pound three weeks ago.

Keeping the pound or not keeping it if Scotland becomes independent.

Then there was the discussion about Europe.

And now today, this concern that Standard Life is going to move away.

Everyone is concerned about these elements,

and yet there is a huge elephant sitting in the room

and everyone is denying that they want to discuss that,

and that is oil and money, the money that comes from it.

Watching it as a process is amazing.

When are they going to admit that that is what truly concerns them?

There was a lot of discussion on oil this week

as the two cabinets went to Aberdeen. Felix?

As one who believes in the basic principle of freedom of choice,

Scotland has every right to vote on independence.

But on the other hand, if they decide to do that,

they have to accept the consequences.

They way I see it,

Alex Salmond is trying to get the best of both worlds.

He thinks, we'll break away from the United Kingdom

and England will be kind to us.

He's setting the rules.

He's saying, England will have to allow us to keep the pound,

and we can stay in the European Union.

Well, it doesn't sound much independence to me

because if you haven't got economic independence,

you're not an independent country.

But doesn't Scotland have as much right to use the pound as England and Wales?

No, because the simple fact is,

the pound was the English currency originally.

It was then extended when the UK was extended.

And you have to remember, the reason Scotland joined England in 1707

was because the Scottish economy was bankrupt,

every Scottish pound was only worth one English shilling.

So that is the concern now, that many companies in Scotland,

like Standard Life and some of the other companies,

say to Alex Salmond, you're welcome to become independent

but you have to accept the consequences.

And unfortunately, in an ideal world,

if it was economically beneficial for Scotland to become independent,

I'd say hear, hear.

But if I was Scottish, I wouldn't see it

as being economically beneficial with regard to work.

If England says, no pound, they will have to go into the euro.

You know the mess the euro is in today.

Spain will keep them out of the European Union

because it is worried about losing Catalonia.

And one more thing.

If Scotland became independent, in the short term,

Wales would be worse off for one reason.

We need Scotland at the discussion table with Northern Ireland

in order to secure concessions from the Government in London.

If we lose Scotland, Wales will only be a little lap dog for London.

Let's have the other side of the argument from Adam Price.

And they're listening to us now.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, Felix.

I'm not surprised that Standard Life has threatened this.

20 years ago, they wrote to all of their employees

to tell them to vote against devolution.

So they have shown their colours in the past.

There is a pattern here, isn't there?

Who have we seen during the last few weeks?

George Osborne, the spokespeople from the other parties,

Barroso, Mark Carney, Standard Life.

They won't be the last, by the way.

Many leaders from these large establishments

will come out against independence.

Why?

Because they're frightened.

Every time they do this, the yes vote increases because people in Scotland

aren't going to accept people threatening them.

The Scottish people have enough strength of character.

They have enough confidence to believe in themselves.

Isn't that a good point, Felix?

I wouldn't dare bet against them

because Alex Salmond is betting on himself.

I wouldn't bet against Alex Salmond.

You'll get a chance to reply, but Gareth...

Good luck to Scotland if they become independent, but...

Gareth, first.

The question was about how it was going to affect independence.

It sounds to me like there is some campaign here.

That Osborne has some strategy,

by coming out with Mark Carney, and so on.

But I just feel, have they gone too soon?

I agree with Adam.

I think this will encourage more Scottish people

to vote in favour of independence.

They may feel that they are being bullied, Felix.

Not at all, because Scotland is part of the United Kingdom

and so everyone across the UK is entitled to express an opinion.

If you look at Facebook, there are groups from Wales

in favour of independence for Scotland and groups against.

We do have a voice, but in the end,

the Scottish people themselves have the right to decide.

If they want to become independent, good luck to them.

I honestly wish them well.

So you think it was a mistake by George Osborne

to go up there to try and preach?

Not at all. George Osborne is just setting out the economic facts.

You're welcome to become independent,

you have the right to do so,

but we think you'll be worse off economically.

And as the singer David Bowie said on the night of the Brit Awards,

stay with us in the United Kingdom, we need you.

I want to go to the audience. Meinir?

I think Alex Salmond is a very intelligent politician.

He knows the bottom line is money.

I'm looking forward now to seeing him respond in a constructive way

to these negative comments.

If you lived in Scotland, would you vote yes or no?

I think I would vote yes.

You had your hand up.

I think this company is scaremongering.

As Adam said, I think a lot of people will come out in the media

to try and frighten people as the campaign goes on.

But I think that will have a positive effect on the yes campaign.

And in the front here?

I agree that they are scaremongering.

At the end of the day, if Scotland becomes independent,

the best deal for Scotland will be the same as the best deal for England,

so they'll have to agree in the end.

Oscar Williams at the back?

The Prime Minister said last week that the UK Government

would have more responsibility to look after oil income from the North Sea

when the income during the last few years has gone down by 30%.

How can he say he could look after the resources better than Scotland?

You two have a sentence each to close this discussion

and I mean a sentence. Felix?

It is up to the Scottish people

whether they become independent or not.

Adam?

The vote will be held on the date

of the old Celtic festival, Autumn Equinox.

If that's not a sign from the gods that they're going to win, well...

I think they'll do it.

That's it for tonight. Thanks to the people of Brecon.

It's been wonderful to have your company and the company of the panel.

Next week, we'll be in Pwllheli for the final programme of the series.

Until then, goodbye.