06/03/2014 Pawb a'i Farn

On our panel this evening, the head of Ofcom in Wales, Rhodri Williams.

Professor Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones

from the Film and Television Department at Aberystwyth University.

The Plaid Cymru AM for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

And Llyr Roberts, who's a lecturer in business

for the Welsh National College in the south east.

Please give them a warm welcome.

APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome once again.

I'm afraid we've reached our final programme of the series

and we end the series on the Lleyn Peninsula.

Thank you everyone who has contributed

during the last few months and thanks for the welcome we've received

from Llanelli to Llangefni.

We'll be back in September with a special programme from Scotland before the referendum there.

Tonight, we're in Pwllheli with an audience of people from the town and nearby villages.

I hope we can squeeze in four or five questions into the next hour.

The first question comes from Gareth Jones.

Gareth, what is your question?

Should Russia be punished in some way for what it has done in Crimea?

That is the question of the week, without a doubt.

Should Russia be punished in some way for what it has done in Crimea?

We'll start with you, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

The answer from the point of view of international law, is yes.

If a country attacks the territory of another country,

and uses a military threat,

especially when one side has significant weapons compared to the other,

then that goes against international law.

Having said that, what always happens in these situations,

as we saw with that photo of a piece of paper someone managed to take outside Downing Street,

the advice that was given to UK ministers was,

don't reprimand Russia too much because we have to remember

that's where we get our oil and energy from.

One of my colleagues, and I work closely with him in the Assembly,

Mick Antoniw, who is a Welsh Labour AM for Pontypridd,

is from the Ukraine.

He's been there recently and we get regular reports on what's happening.

I hope now that there will be a new understanding

of the Ukraine's importance as a country.

It's a country that has had a variety of populations,

languages and religions and it always has been.

It's important we don't talk about these places as some places in eastern Europe.

The Ukraine is actually the centre of Europe.

It's important that we support them.

And so there should be no punishment?

I think we have to make Russia see sense

about its international behaviour.

But the truth is, countries in the West

aren't going to impose sanctions, are they,

because they're worried about the energy.

And that brings us to another matter that we might discuss later.

Thank you. Llyr Roberts, you are familiar with the country.

Yes. Funnily enough I was in the Ukraine last summer.

I was there around three years ago as well.

It's frightening because I was on that square in the centre of Kiev.

I was staying around the corner from there.

It's strange to see these pictures on the television

and you're reminded how close we are to that country.

It is a European country. Kiev feels like a European city.

It's frightening to see people being shot and killed there

on our continent, in Europe.

It's terrible.

The Crimea region is a little more complicated.

I've travelled quite a bit in that part of the world

and there are a lot pockets in these countries

where most of the population consider themselves to be Russian.

There's a similar area in another country I've visited, Moldova.

An area called Transnistria.

There are situations, because of the Soviet Union's policies,

where Russians have been moved into these areas.

The situation we have now in Crimea is that most of the population

consider themselves to be Russian.

And if they want to be a part of Russia, why shouldn't they be?

We look at Scotland now and we say, Scottish people have the right to have a referendum

so who are we in the West to lecture people living in the Crimea region?

I'm getting into complicated territory now and I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest.

But it is strange and very sad to see people being killed

on our continent in the 21st century.

Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones.

This referendum in the Crimea region has been called today.

It is due to be held in around a fortnight.

-Sooner than that even.

-Sooner.

The process in Scotland has taken a lot longer than a fortnight.

We also know that the populations in that country vary

and that there are differences with regard to language and so on.

But a modern country is supposed to be able to sustain a varied population.

We also know that the Ukraine is in an important place strategically.

The European Union this afternoon

has been trying to put a package together

to ensure that there is support for the energy industry in the Ukraine.

But it's a very complicated situation.

It's also typical of how aggressive Putin is being,

not just outside his country but inside his own country as well.

We know there are many problems in Russia.

The lack of democracy within the Ukraine

has led to many of the problems within the Ukraine

and the situation it faces today.

Rhodri Williams, is there a concern that Putin could decide to move further?

If he is not punished and stopped,

he could look towards Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania.

He could do that, even if people do threaten him.

The truth is, nobody is going to go to war with Russia,

nobody is going to raise arms against Russia.

I agree with what Dafydd said earlier.

What Russia has done goes against international law, of course.

And it is wrong, of course.

There is clear injustice happening there.

But on the other hand, there's no point threatening to punish

when you don't have the ability to do it

and I don't think the West or America has the ability

to do that in this context.

Making Russia see sense, as Dafydd said...

But how do you do that without introducing some kind of measures?

Elin, do you want to come in?

In the end, you have to think about the meaning and worth of international law.

If nobody is willing to consider that seriously,

then the agreements become pointless.

Having said that, this man, President Yanukovych,

was elected fairly in a democratic election.

The international community accepted it was fair.

Yes, but he then messed with the constitution

and that's a dangerous thing to do.

And he interfered with the constitution

with regard to languages.

let's go to the audience.

Has anyone got anything to say about the Ukraine?

Gareth, you asked the question.

It's a very wealthy country.

We've heard about the Ukraine and the energy that is there.

What frightens me is that there are countries surrounding it, and I've been to them,

that aren't as wealthy.

They have been very poor countries and have been under Russia's thumb.

What if they rise up as well?

They're nothing but a time bomb.

Do you want to see Russia punished?

What is your answer to your own question?

No. I don't think it's possible.

The panel is agreed.

We have to talk first.

Does anyone else want to contribute?

Let's get the microphone to the front.

When people say punish Russia, how can you punish Russia?

What Russia has done isn't very good and it's not acceptable,

but how can you punish Russia?

It seems like a silly question to me, to be honest,

because I don't see any way...

David Cameron announced today, for example,

that there are arrangements to simplify the process

of giving visas to people from Russia

and that those discussions will end immediately until something changes.

Discussions were supposed to take place at the G8 in Sochi in a few months

and those could be cancelled.

They are small measures but they could be seen as punishment.

Yes, but...

If you're going to punish, you have to do something stronger

to try and stop these terrible events in a stronger way.

Yes, those things are important,

but I don't know how much weight they'll carry

against such a large country.

Britain may already be in a fragile situation, Dafydd Elis-Thomas,

as the country that went into Iraq and Afghanistan.

What moral right do Britain or America or the West have

to say to Russia, you can't do this?

It's important that individual countries don't act individually.

These things have to be implemented at a European Union level.

I know Catherine Ashton and she is the representative,

she's coming to the end of her time now, but she has done excellent work

to try and ensure a better understanding.

But this all still depends on European countries agreeing and cooperating.

And don't forget, we've had some very successful sanctions in the past.

Look at what we did in South Africa to force change.

It's not as easy in Israel and in the case of the Palestinians.

We have failed miserably there.

We'll leave that topic there.

Let's move on to our second question which comes from Luned Bedwyr.

What is your question?

Should students from Wales who go to a university in England

receive the same financial support from the Government

as the ones who stay in Wales?

Should students from Wales who go to a university in England

receive the same financial support from the Government

as the ones who stay in Wales?

This is the second time in this series we've discussed this topic.

It is obviously popular, especially among the younger generation.

Elin, as a lecturer in Aberystwyth, where do you stand on this?

I think it's a complicated issue, to be honest.

For families and students, it's simple, isn't it?

Do we get the same support if we study in Welsh universities

as we do over the border?

When this policy was introduced, I think it was introduced in a way

that was in the spirit of trying to give people opportunities

and so on and so on.

What's happened since then, of course,

is that the landscape has changed.

The Chancellor's statement before Christmas

which raised the cap on the number of places at English universities

means that in the end, there will be a different balance

between how many students go from Wales to England

and how many go from England to Wales.

We know that universities in England are looking at students from Wales

and are thinking, "Oh, lovely", to be completely blunt,

because those students don't come with the same financial problems.

So the policy is complicated. What would you do about it?

The policy needs to be reviewed

because we don't want too much money going out of Wales

for the higher education sector.

Of course I'd say that, I work in a university in Wales.

But it's important that we acknowledge that universities

are an important industry in Wales.

We export, at the end of the day.

It's a strong industry and if we want to keep our universities

as they are across Wales, and keep them important to specific regions

like the Aberystwyth area, like the Bangor area,

we have to ensure there is investment

so we can compete on a level playing field.

Rhodri, is this policy sustainable?

I'm not sure whether it's sustainable.

Maybe I should declare an interest here

because I have three children and they all studied

at universities in England and have received this support.

The question is, I think,

Is the individual student the important person here

or is it the establishments?

I think the policy is correct.

Is it sustainable in the long term? I don't know.

But I do believe we should stick to the principle.

Whatever level of support is available should be available,

whatever university the student chooses to attend.

Even if Welsh universities start complaining about the situation they're in?

Yes because at the end of the day...

Shouldn't the Welsh Government be supporting Welsh universities?

Yes, because at the end of the day, the Welsh Government needs

to support Welsh students and the last thing we need to do

is to create a situation which does not encourage people

to find the best courses.

Another piece of work is being organised by the Government

at the moment with regards to the small numbers of Welsh people,

fewer than in other place,

who are going to Oxford and Cambridge Universities.

If you change this policy, the job of getting more people

going to the best universities and the best courses,

and some of them are in Wales.

A review is being conducted at the moment

and that will be published in two years time.

At the moment students are all paying £3,000

while others who don't receive grant in England pay £9,000.

Let's go to Llyr Roberts?

From someone who has benefited in some ways.

This is interesting to me personally because I had the privilege

of going to Oxford University.

My degree was all paid for.

I had a great time there, I broadened my horizons,

I enjoyed the experience and had amazing courses.

And now, I am a lecturer myself.

-You're on the other side of the fence.

-Yes.

I work in the higher education sector in Wales.

And so?

Despite the fact that it's very difficult

and I do think that back then it would have been a difficult

decision to go to England and pay £9,000 rather than £3,500 in Wales.

That would have been a difficult decision.

I feel very uncomfortable that that decision

is made difficult for students.

But the situation where the Welsh government subsidises

English universities to a great degree

that's unsustainable.

I would also say that we have the best courses here in Wales anyway

and it's something that we should celebrate.

We have this successful establishment.

For me, if the policy is changed so we invest more

in Welsh education language here in Wales,

I support keeping the money in Wales.

Let's talk to the young people. You asked the question.

I think young people should get the money if they go to England

because Welsh courses, especially in medicine, music or art,

are much better in England

and you get far more opportunities in England.

I'm sure those departments in Wales would disagree with you?

But there's not so much choice in Wales.

They confine your choices.

Perhaps you don't want to do one type of course.

So the present policy is OK?

But we'll never have that choice if we spend the money in England.

If we keep the money in Wales, we can create a better chance.

How about you? Microphone to the front, please.

I'm a fifth year student doing a higher degree in Bangor

and I'm very grateful for the financial support

I've got from the Welsh Government.

And another thing,

because of the grant by the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol

it's made me confident about being able to write more

and use the Welsh language.

Also, it puts us in a better position to get jobs

and I think we need to look at where the finance goes in.

I want to make sure my children get the same chances as me.

What if your children wanted to go to universities

in Liverpool, Newcastle or wherever?

-I would like to think they would stay in Wales.

-Thank you.

How about you?

I had considered going to university in Wales anyway.

I don't think there is enough money for my family

to be able to afford to let me go to England.

So I would have to stay in Wales.

I think support is needed.

How about you here?

In my experience, I went to university in Wales

and a lot of my friends went to England.

If they get a grant, maybe we should have the condition

they should have to come back to Wales or pay the money back.

We need to bring them back to Wales, otherwise people will

stay in England and help the English economy instead of the Welsh one.

Is that fair to force people to come back to Wales?

That's almost blackmail.

We have to think of that, we have to be clever

and we have to find people.

One of my daughters is in and English college

because she couldn't find a similar course in Wales.

We need courses in Wales

and universities should start thinking about the needs in Wales.

The classic case is medicine.

At the moment, there is a course in Cardiff but Welsh people can't

get places on that course.

So people from Wales, especially from North Wales

are going to England and studying in Liverpool and Manchester

and getting jobs there and staying there

and we haven't got doctors here. So we need to be planning better.

-What's the answer in that case?

-Another medicine school in Wales.

Dafydd Elis Thomas, where do you stand on this?

I've mixed feelings.

I have a responsibility, as you can tell from the tie,

to Bangor University and it's important that we continue

to attract students from abroad and from outside the European Union

who will pay enormous fees.

But there's inconsistency in this.

We are prejudiced against English students

but can't be prejudiced against ones from the European Union.

So obviously this policy cannot be sustained

beyond the next five or ten years.

That's why the Welsh First Minister announced that a review

has to happen.

He has been very clever in saying that this will not be published

until after the next Assembly election.

But you can't give support like that to English universities

when there's such a need in Wales.

You have a clash here between the open market,

and I agree with what Elin said about the importance of

the higher education sector for the Welsh economy.

The situation is that you have emigration happening

in higher education

and you have a situation in the long-term

where it's unsustainable.

We will have to face that.

Thank you. We'll leave it there.

Join us again after the break.

We'll be discussing wind turbines.

Welcome back.

You are watching the last programme of the series.

Tonight we're in Pwllheli.

Let's get our next question asked by Alun Jones Williams.

What is your question?

Should more windmills be erected in Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty?

Alun is a pupil at Ysgol Glan Mor.

Should more windmills be erected in Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty?

Let's start with someone who lives on the other side of Wales.

Rhodri Williams?

One thing is certain, we need to produce more energy

and more of it needs to come from sustainable sources.

That has to be done.

At this rate, we will have problems.

We have to produce more.

I don't have a problem with regards to windmills.

I passed them as I drove up here today in Powys

and they don't bother me.

I wouldn't say it was an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.

Where? Powys?

No. The particular place where I saw the windmills.

Would you want one of those where you live?

I wouldn't have a problem with that.

We have to produce more energy

and windmills are certainly a good way of doing that.

But I have doubts about whether windmills can produce enough energy.

I have reason to believe that the contribution that they can make

is much smaller and that's why we have to have nuclear energy

as part of the provision.

I also think we need to make better use of the sea.

There are some interesting proposals being put forward at the moment

such as a barrage in Swansea Bay and perhaps a Severn barrage.

So you wouldn't mind seeing dozens of them

in around the Lleyn Peninsula hills?

No. You are not going to put them everywhere.

You don't have to put them everywhere.

There are better places for them

and there are some places where they wouldn't be suitable.

-I think you have to use common sense about where you put them.

-Llyr?

I was travelling up through Powys as well today

and it's a beautiful area.

But I thought that some of them

actually added to the landscape.

A few of them can be quite beautiful

and I know people won't like me saying that.

The problem is, when we have these enormous farms,

some of the turbines are exceptionally big.

Some of these turbines and pylons are enormous.

I would like to see a movement towards microproduction

so we see a village with its own pylon

and that the village benefited from the windmill.

My father always mentioned Dinas Mawddwy

which was the first place to get electricity

because they had a water mill.

I would like to see villages having investment

in that kind on a microlevel.

Also we need to cut down on our energy use.

We waste a lot.

Let's hear from the audience?

You asked the question.

I think windmills are important in this area.

If we want to preserve the views that we have here,

we need more renewable energy because unrenewable energy releases

carbon dioxide and causes climate change.

It's important to keep the ecosystems

that we have in this area.

-So you don't think they destroy the view?

-No.

If we want to keep the scenery,

I think we need to keep things close to nature.

And one row back.

Ysgol Botwnnog, am I right?

Yes. I understand the arguments that we need to create

more renewable energy, but what's the problem with putting

these turbines out in the sea where they can't be seen,

then everybody's happy and plenty of renewable energy is produced?

And there are those that believe they are a blight on the landscape

and they'll be satisfied.

So you don't want them in the Lleyn Peninsula?

Let's get the microphone to you.

We should use the water more in the Lleyn Peninsula.

We've seen enough water in North Wales over the last few months

and we should also the tide as it comes in every day.

I think things like that should be considered more than windmills.

I would like to invite local people to our small group

that's called Ynni Llyn.

We meet in Botwnnog every month.

We are on Facebook and Twitter

and it's good to see young people starting to take an interest.

What's your viewpoint?

I want more people to come and work with us

and to understand what the problems are.

We have a long-term, short-term and mid-term strategy

that includes wind turbines in the sea.

And on the land?

And possibly on land.

But what we want above all is to get people to work practically

to save energy, and then what you call a Community PEV

-in the mid-term, and then in the end...

-Thank you.

And you?

There is a classic example of not in my backyard.

People are saying they're green, they're great.

If you plant them in the Lleyn Peninsula nobody wants them.

Is that your experience?

I don't mind them myself.

I think we have to have them.

I have to agree with Llyr.

There is an advantage in getting communities companies,

but if they come to Eifionydd it has to profit local people,

not foreigners or people from the border.

We need to ensure that it supports the Welsh language

and is sustainable and we have to prioritise our own interests.

I think the impetus is wrong.

It's fine if it's a community project.

A local village is going to make £100,000 a year.

The impetus at the moment is the subsidy.

If you remove that...

So what happens? A few of individuals might benefit?

How many English companies would come in and do that?

Where were you?

Thank you.

The most important thing to consider

is planning for windmills.

At the moment, planning laws aren't stringent enough.

People can put them up anywhere and we need definite regulation.

Someone on the panel said they are much too big.

They need to be smaller.

We need tough regulation about where they can be erected.

And one over.

I can't see the importance of the scenery.

What's the point of it?

You just look at it.

But they attract thousands of visitors to the area?

But a windmill isn't going to stop people from visiting.

Yes, what do you think?

They look nicer than the other electrical things.

I agree with Llyr and Ifan.

Yes, you over there. Let's get the microphone to the middle.

I'm very concerned that we are going to be swamped by these windmills.

As someone who is a local person,

we are here to protect the Anau

and we only have tourism and agriculture bringing in money.

Going back to the rain and water we've had...

But this young man said it won't stop people coming here.

They will, definitely.

There's no point having the hills if we are going to whitewash anywhere

with these metal monsters everywhere. We need to be careful.

I understand the concerns but I don't think

a blot on the landscape is a strong enough argument

to stop windmills.

That's not a strong enough argument?

To stop us erecting the windmills.

In future, they are going to provide more renewable energy

and if they don't go hand in hand with tourism which in the end,

in moderation, they are good.

You all want to contribute on this.

We should take advantage of the landscape what we have

and we can put them in the Lleyn Peninsula

without putting them everywhere.

So you wouldn't mind? Another contribution here.

I can't understand with today's technology

why we can't use more hydro, more water.

We are not looking at that often enough.

That has been a constant cry.

Dafydd Elis Thomas?

Natural Resources Wales has just published a clear policy

with regards to hydro and how much water you can take out of rivers.

This is complex because of the Welsh landscape

and the water here.

Obviously, hydro needs to be considered.

There's also room for the sea to be used.

This month, or quite soon, a Welsh company on Ramsey Island, Eco2,

off the coast of Pembrokeshire was going to start up.

But let's go back to the windmills in this area.

As far as I know, the applications for turbines

are made by individuals who are landowners or community groups

in order to promote their own business.

I know of a number of farms where the cost of producing

and their running costs have been reduced substantially.

The problem in a lot of areas, in Welsh rural areas,

is that the distribution grid isn't strong enough

to be able to take the electricity to be produced.

I have three or four examples and Dinas Mawddwy is one of them,

where there is a lot of enthusiasm from people who want to start

renewable energy projects,

but in that case, Scottish Energy, can't take the electricity.

You don't think they are ugly?

You aren't worried this can hit the tourist industry?

I was brought up in one of the most beautiful places

in the world, the Conwy Valley.

That's where the first pylons were erected

and that's where R Williams Parry wrote a sonnet to the pylon.

Don't sentimentalise it.

-I don't think they are ugly.

-The panel's in agreement!

In fact, I think they are quite attractive.

Sometimes I look at them and I think, that's producing wealth

in this area and I like to see that and it makes me feel good.

If somebody can imagine situations where they are all over,

then the same things can look ugly.

If there's a lot of them they look ugly and we also know

that decision wasn't made on a local or even a Welsh level.

-Quickly.

-That is going to change.

Recommendations have been made that we have the right in Wales

to decide on planning regulation.

Under the Silk Commission.

Perhaps that's what we'll be talking about next after the break.

Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn that's coming from Pwllheli.

Our next question is from Mike Parry.

What's your question?

Considering what the Welsh Government has done

in the education and health sectors,

should it be given further powers?

Mike referring back to the Silk Commission announcement.

Considering what the Welsh Government has done

in the education and health sectors,

should it be given further powers?

Mike, perhaps I can turn to you first.

What's the complaint? What's the problem?

The problem here is, on a daily basis, especially today,

education and health has been in the media.

It's not a new thing, it's been going on for years,

especially in terms of health.

We have has several local campaigns because of this.

I understand that Cardiff Bay is still in an apprenticeship...

A 15 year apprenticeship?

Health nor education is working.

If you go for a job, you wouldn't want health or education on your CV.

We'll came back to you later, Mike. Llyr, what do you think?

I think we are confusing the Government with the Assembly,

or the Senedd as an institution.

But where the people here are in the question

the results are the same.

I don't agree with everything the Government have done

in health and education over the years or decades,

but I do support the fact that everything goes through our own

Welsh Assembly, even if they do make mistakes.

Remember, the English Government's made mistakes at the same time.

But I do support them.

But in education, things are better in England than in Wales.

We are putting too much emphasis on these PISA statistics.

A lot of great things have happened in education in Wales.

We have great teachers, we're getting rid of some tests.

The Welsh college, a lot of great things have been done

by the Welsh Government in education and I support our Assembly

being given more powers.

But if they haven't done so well in some fields

why give them more powers?

If you're not happy with the way the government has performed

change the government, don't blame the Assembly as an institution.

I would agree completely with what he just said.

Whatever the problems,

and especially where health is concerned,

I think there are so many problems in parts of England,

we haven't had the problems seen in...

But you can see what Mike is talking about?

You've both said there are problems and the record is not good.

It's not the constitutional record.

But it's happened since devolution.

It's been 15 years since then.

The process where Dafydd and 59 other elected members

of the Assembly should hold the government to account

for what they are doing.

It's much better than what we had before that

where we had two people, in my experience,

a secretary of state and one minister

and everything was decided by them.

Things weren't transparent, there was no accountability

and I think...

As Llyr was saying about the PISA results, before that

the statistics suggested that we had a better record in education.

It's gone downhill since then,

so it's no wonder people like Mike Parry can't see a difference.

But that's not because of the constitution

and I don't accept that everything is getting worse.

I think the Health Service in Wales is performing better

than some people think.

I think there's too much pressure on it

and people expect more from it.

I think we are all guilty of having higher expectations

but we are not happy to pay so much money.

Also in Wales, in particular, we have higher levels of some

kind of illnesses, some are historical

but some such as obesity, created by ourselves.

I think education and health are improving

and are changing in different ways.

To start with, we have Estyn that makes sure

we improve standards in education.

And in health the new social services bill which is on its third

reading of the Assembly, has shown that health care and welfare

coordinate better with the third sector.

More powers?

We need to have more powers for the Assembly to do that.

But I do have my concerns.

More powers?

One thing that worries me with regards to health

is, looking at Betsi, is it too big?

Are there lessons to be learned from studying the Williams Report?

The bigger things get, the less answerable they are to people.

Gareth Jones, come in on this please. Do they deserve more powers?

I don't think so. You have to remember it's the British Government

not the English Government.

We did quite well before this Assembly with a British Government

and a suitable secretary of state.

These are just stalling things instead of getting on with things.

I think it's a matter of administration.

That's where the problems lie.

Now, the former Presiding Officer

and the local Assembly Member. How do you answer this question?

I take it you want more powers?

That's what we've always wanted.

Can you justify getting more powers?

What's important about this is that the model of how powers

are granted is going to change.

The same as Scotland and Northern Ireland.

When powers are defined according to what we are able to do,

as opposed to what we are trying to do.

That's how it used to be.

Don't forget the mess we had initially

when there was no difference between the Assembly and the Government.

That's all changed now.

The most important powers we should have quickly, I hope,

and hopefully within a few months is powers with regards to transport.

We need better trains and buses and better cooperation between them,

and God knows we all want it.

The people who have bus passes and everyone else,

we all want to see this happening.

That's the best example I can give.

Will your electorate in North Wales be better off

if the Assembly has more powers?

Yes, when it comes to transport especially.

That's the only case you can mention?

No, I'm only using that example.

I can think of others.

Let's mention S4C, that's another.

There was a meeting in Caernarfon tonight with Hywel Williams

and Alun Ffred Jones with moving the neo-natal unit

from Glan Clwyd to a hospital on the Wirral.

I've personally... Well, not just me, a group of us

collected money and we've just given a new machine to Ysbyty Gwynedd.

But what do you think of these further powers?

I think powers should be kept in Gwynedd or in Wales.

Thank you. Elin, come in on this.

A lot of pioneering things have come out of Wales.

We've been ahead of England on other things.

For instance, we were the first to get a Children's Commissioner.

We were the first to get rid of exams

and to introduce things in education.

But hasn't getting rid of exams led to a drop in standards?

Sometimes we are too ready to find be different from England

just for the sake of it.

We have to consider what kind of society we want to create,

what kind of future we want for our children.

We need to consider the values that are important.

This is the chance we have now.

We need to ensure that our children have the most important

education possible.

But the PISA results don't show us in a good light.

The PISA statistics

are problematic in the way we interpret them.

Because we are doing badly?

We are certainly not doing as well as we could be doing.

We need more investment.

I come from a county, Ceredigion,

which has had a superb review, the best possible review.

So a lot of good work is going on but we do have pockets of poverty

and that's a very important factor as we consider the other things.

I'm just going to have one final question in Pwllheli.

That question is asked by Victor Jones.

Where are you?

Does the panel regret the fact there'll be cuts

to the most popular programme on S4C, Pobol y Cwm?

Thank you. Does the panel regret the fact there'll be cuts

to the most popular programme on S4C, Pobol y Cwm?

We'll find out if the audience is regretful too.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas, do you watch this soap opera?

No!

-So S4C is right?

-Yes.

I don't watch it because it's on at the same time as something else.

Channel 4 News.

But what's happened with regards to S4C is that the Assembly

is going to have responsibility for S4C at last.

They'll receive £7 million.

-But you are avoiding the question.

-No, I'm not.

We need to spend money on other digital platforms

and I want legislative adaptability on promoting

the Welsh language coming to Cardiff Bay.

We should be able to influence broadcasting

and all kinds of communication

so we can use the new mediums properly.

That's what matters, not some soap opera.

Rhodri Williams, do you watch it?

I occasionally watch it.

He has to say that, he works for Ofcom.

But I simply have no problems with the changes.

The fact that S4C pay £2 million to have the episodes

broadcast as an omnibus edition on Sunday at a time

when you can watch them all On Demand is ridiculous.

But they'll lose the Friday night episode too.

That £2 million needs to be spent perhaps...

I'd prefer to see more original drama.

We saw Hinterland recently and I watched Teulu

and I like Gwaith/Cartref, and I liked watching Alys.

I think there should be more drama of that nature

and if this helps finance more of that, then I applaud it.

A few voices from the audience please.

Where did I see those hands up?

I think it's a shame.

They've just moved out of Cardiff and invested there.

By cutting one episode, I don't think they are taking

full advantage of the investment.

Thank you. And you.

I think Pobol y Cwm is a bit...

..is over the hill anyway.

We'll leave it there! Victor.

I don't particularly care but my wife is a fan.

-She watches it?

-Yes.

Elin, how about it?

Are they doing the right thing in cutting this?

Every channel has its own soap opera,

cutting a soap from five days to four days is a loss in a way

because five days was such a great thing to have.

But I would like to see much more original drama as well.

This is the result when S4C have to operate

with a 36% cut in their budget.

The amount of money going into the channel and what comes out,

there is a relationship there.

But more money should be spent on nurturing new talent

-and creating new things.

-So, a good decision?

You're not allowed more. Yes or no?

It has to be done as a result of cuts.

-Llyr?

-I prefer them taking a big step like this

rather than salami slicing other services.

I would like to see the money invested in the new media.

Thank you everybody for coming, it's been great having you here.

Thanks also to the panel.

This is the final programme in this series.

Our editor and producer is also leaving after 20 years.

We'll be back in the autumn.

For now, goodbye.