15/09/2012 Plaid Cymru Conference

Welcome that to Brechin and a two of the Plaid Cymru Conference. They

have been ripping through this part of the world today, but we are

asking why this party with its new driver is heading and whether it is

on course for electoral success. Good afternoon. Welcome to wed the

delegates have gathered for their annual conference. We heard from

their new leader Leanne Wood yesterday. She is insistent that

the economy and jobs are her priorities. We will hear from her

later and incidentally, on the issue of independence in her speech.

We will be asking what her plan is for the economy. Let us introduce

the team for the next two hours. You have covered these conferences

For over a quarter of a century. is a bit worrying isn't it? To see

your life go by in a succession of conferences! You have seen their

ups and downs, where are they now? I would say somewhere in the middle.

Plaid Cymru had his big breakthrough with 15 years ago in

1999. Since then, it has been at. Of relatively continual but a

gentle decline. Now they're trying something new, they have a new

leader and they are trying to refrain the message, but really no

one can be certain of that all work and there are an awful lot of

external factors that will govern how successful they are in the next

few years, in particular I am thinking of the referendum in

Scotland and the next UK general election. Those results will impact

on the most important elections for Plaid Cymru, the Assembly elections

the following year. It is a period of transition for the party, we are

not particularly down in the dumps, but they are not excited about the

future either. Much more to come and throughout the afternoon will

be will be popping in and out of the hall and guiding us through

against their will be Aled ap Dayydd. As you mention, the party

faithful heard from their new leader yesterday. They are now

listening it to their old leader who is leading an discussion,

calling on public bodies to inject some much-needed cash into the

economy. I will be keeping an eye here and keep you abreast of the

latest votes than notions. Let us pop outside to our correspondent

who is getting reaction to the events in the hall. Hello there. I

have come out to this canal and I will be talking to councillors,

activists and pundits to find out whether Plaid Cymru has the wind in

its sales as the conference does to a close. Thank you. Another quick

word with you. You say they are somewhere in the middle, how

ambitious is Leanne Wood in terms of her timescale? Well, in terms of

achieving independence, she has said it is part of her campaign,

she is very unambitious. She has been very open at this conference,

saying it when people say to us Wales could not afford the

Independent, they are probably right. In that sense, she is

looking at a very long-term process off of attaining in depends them -

and independence. She is continually talking about a Plaid

Cymru government. It is very difficult given the political

dynamics in Wales at the moment to see that happening, but remember

they were not that far off the being the largest party way back in

1999. She is trying to created the circumstances and policies were she

hopes making it into the position of forming a government. That is

very ambitious, at some people would call it foolhardy. A party

they cannot stand up and say well all be in opposition for ever. She

is trying to finesse those two things, of trying not to sound as

if she is ludicrously over- ambitious, but at the same time

trying to project an air of confidence. This is not her first

conference. Looking back at the first six months, how is she doing?

The jury is still out in terms of the party faithful. I do not sense

any great unhappiness or disquiet about her leadership, I think

people feel in some areas that she has improved. I think when she was

elected, people knew they were electing a work-in-progress. At big

mandate though? Yes. I think they were voting for a change. They did

not feel that as more of the same would achieve anything and that is

what they were voting against in not have voting for Ellis Thomas.

Most people here will say they think she is getting there in terms

of broadcast interviews, in terms of speech-making, but there is

disquiet that she is not a grounding in the sort of blows that

she promised to in the leadership campaign. She said she would take

the fight to Carmarthen. We can argue about how important they are

outside. She is not lane in many blows on the First Minister.

will be hearing from her later. She has made it clear it is all about

the economy and jobs. During the leadership campaign, it was all

about independence. He is this that the reality of being in charge,

that that is not the way to reach out be on the party. The party says

Leanne Wood is in favour of independence, because she based her

leadership contest on that. People are worried about money in their

pockets, the jobs they feel might be in danger, and the jobs they may

already have lost, they're not going to take kindly to a party

leader who is talking about a further progression on the

devolution process at a time of economic difficulty. On the economy,

she is talking about agreeing a deal. Take us through that, because

this is going to be crucial. We do not have the details, but we can

guess about it. We are beginning to see something honest. She published

some details on that. It is what we are hearing quite a lot from the

Democrats in the United States of creating a clean and green economy

by using traditional methods. Pumping public money and increasing

public investment in economy and spending it not as the original New

Deal are back in the 1930s did on things like highways, but on things

that are necessary for us and ecology. This includes things like

transport, new energy sources and so on. We are beginning to see a

details and ideas and there is talk as some kind of World Bank, the

Conservatives are also well considering that idea, and there is

the idea of a... Wales is very close, and net exporter of energy

at the moment, and that amount of energy is likely to increase.

she implement that straightaway are watching the more powers, more

economic levers before she could do that? There are some things that

could be implemented straight away, other things she could ask

Westminster to do and she might be pushing on this, a classic example

is that the UK government are talking of establishing what are

called Challenger banks, the UK government has promised at least

one, there is talk at UK level it may be one of those banks should

not be UK wide by, it should be an independent bank in Wales, an

independent bank in the west of England, that they should be

regionally based banks. If that is part of the plan, she might well

find that the UK government would be in agreement with that. To what

extent is she rebranding the rebranding of Plaid Cymru? She is

from the left, Ishi swinging the party right over to the left?

it isn't it is a rebranding, in that the name has not changed and

the logo has not changed and the basic slogans as far as I can see

have not changed. I think it is more what they call a refraining,

where she is not changing what you are saying, what you are changing

is the emphasis and the attention that you give to particular parts

of the message. That economic message, not anything hugelyYet,

but choosing to talk about that, rather than the state of the health

service, the state of the education service, let alone constitutional

issues, that is a change. I put it as a refraining of what they are

trying to show, rather than as a rebranding or a real change in

policy terms. She said she would take the fight straight to Labour.

There is talk of her doing a deal with Labour. Where are we on at the

in terms of the one deal she has done so far or as back with the Les

Lee Griffiths affair? Unless there was an extreme change of

circumstance, the reason I say that is twofold. First of all, Labour

have had no great difficulty governing with just 30 out of 60

members so far, he to coast along like that. The larger the party are

you deal with, but higher the price UK. He is in a situation where he

has a smaller party in the Assembly, the Liberal Democrats, who, if I

can put it crudely, are gagging for a deal, because a coalition with

Labour in Cardiff Bay would help offset some of the damage the Welsh

Liberal Democrats feel in been in coalition with the Conservatives in

Westminster has done them. If he did want a coalition deal and there

is no sign that he doors particularly, logic would tend to

suggest that he turned to Liberal- Democrat so. It was interesting to

see that he was here for Leanne Wood's speech yesterday. The did

have that falling out. He actually lost the Plaid Cymru whip and then

a Leanne Wood climb down some would say, others would say that she

withdrew gracefully. He has the potential to be a slightly loose

cannon. The idea that he would ever jump ship in terms of membership

from Plaid Cymru to Labour it is stretching it far too far. I do not

think it is stretching it too far to say that he could and at times

it be a useful vote for Labour in the chamber on particular issues

because he has shown already that he is not afraid to buck the party

whip if he feels like it. Thank you. Earlier this morning, the party

decided to discuss an emergency motion on the report into the

Hillsborough disaster published earlier this week. It was led in

the debate this morning and has to reduce some of the part of the

motion, the conference would welcome the publication of the

report, sympathises that the family, also states that justice for the

families was denied and believes that this is a substantial blow to

the moral authority of the state and the motion also backed a call

for a new full public inquiry. As I said, that motion was proposed by

the parliamentary leader of the party. Last Wednesday in House of

Commons, but there was a lot of shouting, as usual, lots of hurling

of insults, the worse kind you can think of. One minute later, this

statement was made by the Minister about what really happened in

Hillsborough. The chamber was quiet for an hour aura of -- and are and

have and everyone there and everyone there was ceded the

greatest shock on hearing it. It is really difficult to believe the

size of what has happened. It is very difficult to a mansion that

150 statements were faked, forged by police, the ambulance and Fire

Service. This was in order to ensure that they came out of it

well. It reminds me of an appeal by the Guildford Four and the judge

who was the chairman that day and he turned to a barrister and asked

of the other barrister do you expect us to believe that the

police sat down and changed all the statements? Is this the sort of

thing we are supposed to believe? The bail was refused. What happened

here, the conspiracy is far wider and greater than that. It is a

conspiracy on a huge scale. It is absolutely frightening, it is on a

commercial scale. Just imagine how it was for the families who have

fought for 23 years to get to the truth. They have been rebuffed and,

time after time, it is easy to judge Justice Taylor and Smyth and

the courts. The truth is a tribunal is only as good as the evidence in

front of it and if the police faked the evidence it then it follows

naturally the that the result that the end will be wrong. But to come

back to the way that these small families have fought against the

flow and the tight time after time, persistently and conscientiously

for 23 years, it to get it to last Wednesday, to get a glimpse of hope

and of truth. Believe me, the truth that does not sit comfortably and

it is not easy to take. I'm grateful they did it, because they

wanted to get closure and in my opinion, they have taken a massive

step in withstanding the state and I am sure of the Attorney-General

will order a new inquest which is right and proper. I conscientiously

believe that every single person who lied or hid evidence should be

prosecuted all the way through the courts, despite the fact. I do not

think, in my age, I have never seen anything as awful as what happened

that followed Hillsborough. People say, what has it got to do with

Plaid Cymru? We are all flesh and blood and secondly, two off my

friends were there at the time and had to step over the bodies of

children. And when you take the blood tests of children of ten

years old and claimed that they were drinking, got news -- God

knows who thought of this but certainly, what we have to do is

support every effort to turn this ugly truth into justice on behalf

of all those families. Not only because of the justice for what we

should be doing, the right thing, but also, if we do not do this,

then it raises a big question, it raises a question of the authority,

the moral authority of the state to govern. It is that deep and that is

what I told the Prime Minister on Wednesday to stop --. It goes to

the core of the state. We will have to sweep clean and get justice for

these people. Can I ask you, my friends, to please support this

emergency motion and show that we support these poor people who have

Can have a point of information, since this is of key importance, in

the Welsh, in. Four, it says denied, justice was denied. We have one

further Speaker. TRANSLATION: There was a typographical error in Welsh.

TRANSLATION: Chris Bailey, a town councillor but prior to that, town

councillor in Holly Wells. I come from Flintshire. I will tell you

why, in the second, nobody wants to hear my Flintshire tones, I will

return to English. I spent the first 40 years of my

life in Flintshire. For 30 years, I was leader of the Plaid Cymru group

in Holywell Town Council and we were fortunate have councillors on

the county council as well, such as Gareth Roberts who is still there,

who has been a Plaid Cymru county council are, serving Holly Wells

since 1964 and we really should comment on that at some time in the

future -- Holywell. The reason I talk about, although it was

supporters of Liverpool Football Club who were affected, one of them,

I did not know him well, but his brother was a member of the Plaid

Cymru Holywell branch, of which I was secretary. We had 100 members

so I knew his brother a lot better. I met the 18-year-old who died on a

couple of occasions, if that. But I really support this motion. The

problems that occurred, unfortunately, we all saw on the

television screens, that mistakes were made, but more than mistakes,

the alleged attempt to cover up the list Ixworth disgraceful and still

are disgraceful and the fact that they took 23 years to acknowledge

that people told lies, and one certain comic that calls itself a

newspaper, strange that so many shops in Liverpool refused to sell

it for many, many years. We all know why. They told lies about the

people of the Liverpool area and supporters, not all of them, came

from Liverpool but decided to support that club. It is irrelevant

which football club it is, Everton football supporters got behind

Liverpool. And even Manchester supporters. My teams are Holywell

Town and Wrexham. We did what little we could. I hope that

everybody would get behind now. I acknowledge what Cameron said and I

think he was right to say it. What a shame that Thatcher did not say

it all those years ago when she was in power. Why did it take 23 years

to realise that the police were telling lies? Us and that certain

statements were doctored. We all knew that. The people of Merseyside

certainly knew that. I was in college in Liverpool at this time

one day a week. The city was like a morgue. People could not talk about

anything else. It was not just the disaster that occurred, it was the

lies that everybody knew that were being told and I am pleased that

they are now being acknowledged. All these years later. What a pity

that it took so long. I am sure that there must be parents, family

members, friends, that tunnel to mount -- that are not around any

more tea here -- to hear the acknowledgement of the injustice.

This motion goes to everybody that was affected, the families, the

friends, the communities that were affected and I certainly support

Chris Bailey ending that emergency motion on Hillsborough which was

discussed earlier in the conference hall. We can go back outside to our

correspondent Tomos Livingstone. Thank you, I am joined by

Councillor Steffen William from the Vale of Glamorgan, by Karen Jones

from plied camera youth. -- Plaid Cymru you. What will make it easier

for you to win more support in your area? At the moment I am feeling

very buoyant. With Leanne's speech yesterday, if I could encapsulate

that in one word, I would say positivity would that word. She was

positive about job creation and finding home-made solutions for the

problems which affect Wales. That is what people want to know about.

What I loved about Leanne's speech yesterday was the emphasis about

how important people are. It was not just empty rhetoric. It

addressed a lot of issues such as the creation of this economic

Commission. And I think it is because people are core and she

showed that she really cared. It has been a great summer for us in

my neck of the woods, in Barry. We won a by-election on 2nd August in

a Labour Party stronghold where we achieved a front page on the front

of the Independent. They lost the seat because their message was very

negative and I was was very positive and stems from that same

value about caring for people. I am very, very heartened by the entire

conference. It is brimming with enthusiasm. You are very upbeat! I

will bring Karen Wynn Jones in. What did you hear in the speech

which enthused you to go out and get people to vote Plaid Cymru?

is Leanne's message about the economy and jobs. We have had

discussions panel's discussing the youth unemployment. It was nice to

hear Leanne focusing now on that economic growth we really need.

That economic growth in Wales is going to come from Welsh people. We

are, as people, going to do this ourselves. If we all do a little

bit together, we can hopefully ensure more jobs and better economy

in Wales for us. And if I can ask Bethan Jenkins, do we know what

sort of leader Leanne will after that speech? We have to focus on

the economy because it has to get worse before it gets better. With

the cuts the UK government are inflicting on us. Become a

commission will have to get to grips with some of the very

difficult things we have to face here in Wales. I think come up with

new, innovative ideas, as she said yesterday and also I think what

really made me feel enthused was to say, my mother didn't want me to

have to work in a bad environment, she wanted me to be able to be

successful. Coming from the South Wales Valleys, I think we all want

to inspire a new generation to get involved in politics and not just

the ass as cardboard cut-outs of each other and Lehane is an

inspiring leader. Thank you for the three of you. I think these three

people are very much buoyed up by what they heard yesterday.

Thank you. This time yesterday Leanne Wood was getting ready for

her speech. Today, she is with us. 24 hours later. Thank you for

joining us. This time yesterday, how nervous way you? I was quite

nervous, I have to admit there. It was the first speech I did around

the world. The first speech traded in the spring conference was just a

few days after my election so I did not have much time to think about

it. But this time once I got into it, the nerves of went. Let's have

a look at some of your speech. You do not like watching yourself, do

you? It will not be too long. It is plain to see that the Welsh

economy is seriously underperforming. Our economic and

development is the single biggest hurdle to our progress as a nation.

It condemns us to dependence on a government in Westminster of

whichever view that will never have Wales'' interests as its overriding

priority. It does not have to be this way. I would decline -- our

decline, are possiblity -- poverty has never been inevitable. Group

will raise -- we will make rising the economy our overriding priority.

To get there, we will have to use all the skills at our disposal,

public, private, voluntary. In a small nation, we cannot hide away,

we have to work together. Our economic Commission is looking at a

comprehensive strategy. But I have asked the commission to look

specifically at three sets of measures that a Plaid Cymru

government could implement. Firstly, establishing a new mutual

innovation and enterprise of Wales. Bringing together the best of the

skills of the public and private sectors to push forward a Welsh New

Deal. It was de Jade Davies in the 30s who first called for a

development authority in Wales. It is time to reinvigorate, regenerate

and create a new catalyst fit for Wales of the 21st century. Second

year, if the London-based banks will not learn to Welsh businesses,

then we need to create our own financial system, so that more of

the money made in Wales stays in Wales. Channel 4 has its own ban of

Dave, let's have our own Bank of Dave. Let's free finance Wales to

become a real development bank, create a whole sale bank, build up

a network of Business Credit Unions and turned the existing patchwork

of community lenders into a National Savings super mutual.

Public sector pension funds in Wales have billions in assets. 6

billion in total, hardly any of it is invested in Wales. Surely we can

do better? As part bower further recommendations we will seek the

power to offer tax breaks. Similar to those currently available in

Canada to those pension funds prepared to invest in their own

communities. Investing two or 3% of our own workers' assets and Wales,

would help transform the Welsh economy, while representing no risk

at all to the future returns to That is a flavour of some of the

things that the can and will do in government. We can do great things

with hard work and with self-belief. At Westminster, our team, will

continue to offer alternatives to the UK Government's strategy and

believe me, I will do the same when I needed a new Welsh Secretary. The

sad truth is, Plan B are made be a long time coming. Government after

government in Westminster are believed that there was only one

game in town, one industry in one city and that industry was the city

and the City was London. Now, that industry was found wanting and so

are the cupboard is bare. There is no point in looking to London for

our salvation. Changing be head of UK plc will make as much difference

to Wales as changing ahead of Barclays has done for the culture

of the City of London. Personalities come and go up in a

London's corridors of power, but the policies and priorities and

problems for Wales persist. The only way we will build his from of

the bottom up. As DJ Davies said that in the 1930s economic crisis,

it is Wales alone in that can lift Wales from the dust. There is every

reason for us to be helpful. Wales can do a great things. We can fight,

not just the battle, but a war against injustice, poverty and

adversity and we can win. We can finish the course and claim the

prize, not for ourselves, not for this party, but for Wales. For the

people and the land that we all love. I may have achieved in my

mother's ambition, I do not have a her red and raw hands, but I have

or hard of courage and I pledge to you this, I will work for as long

and as hard as this in body and mind allows me to get us to where

we want to be you. This is in the sure knowledge that if we believe,

if we really believe, Wales can and Wales Wayne -- Wales will win.

standing ovation for Leanne Wood as she led to do all yesterday and she

is with us now. Did she like watching yourself? It is always a

bit awkward! Do you have to pinch yourself that you are leader of

Plaid Cymru? Yes, I do. I have been at it like that since I was elected

as an Assembly member as well. That is the thing about representative

democracy, anybody should be able to become a politician and I think

that the Assembly has given people like myself, working-class people,

an opportunity to represent other people and it is important to have

a voices from the range of backgrounds as well in politics. I

think our Assembly anti-pollution has given us that, which is a good

thing. You have been coming to these as a delegate and as an

Assembly member and you now come as leader. You do not quite get the

red carpet, but he would not want the trappings were due? Are you

enjoying it or is it stressed will at times? And of course it can be

stressful, but it is a good job to have. The membership of Plaid Cymru

is extremely supportive of what I have done so far in my first six

months and the response I have had to the speech yesterday has been

really positive. That aspect is great. How does Leanne Wood go

about preparing speeches? Do you lock yourself away and get

inspiration, what is the process? Had you get that moment? I have got

a good team of people and we work together on a lot of the research

behind the speech. When did you start that process? Around the

middle of August. It goes on for some time. The first version it

usually ends up in the bin and the speech that is delivered is usually

the last version. Do you make last- minute tweaks the? Yes, I think

that there are always refinements to make right up until the very end.

It is a team effort. It is not all your words, it is this group, you

have got you on to a rash? Who is their writing that speak? And I am

not going to name people. Can we work very much as a team. That is

my way of working, as a collective, in terms of my work. You are a

mother, a very busy mother. Had to cope with that? I have a great

partner who helps a lot. I live in the street that I grew up then and

my mother and father live up the road and they help as well. He said

in your speech yesterday, I am what I am, you get what you get, no

Zinnia, no damage, just would. You're authenticity is clearly a

big part of Leanne Wood. How were you going to keep that and not grow

at the near? You do need a tough skin. That I cannot say for sure

that that will happen. That thing is to be aware of an trying keep my

feet on the ground and stay rooted among the membership of the party

and the community but I live in. I live on a street where people would

not accept me getting above my station and that is a good thing.

Let us look at your plan. You made it clear in your speech that you

intend to be the First Minister in 2016. He also said that people have

seen through politicians who promise the earth but just leave a

bitter disappointment. Here you are, it saying you will be leader, you

have to live up to that. That is a hell of a challenge! We have to be

ambitious. We need to be ambitious as for too long, Wales has been

second best, our economy has been in decline for 20 years, things

have to change. We have to stop thinking like winners and unless we

do that, we are going to stay in the same situation now we are in.

At interesting drawings of words, because you said leading Plaid

Cymru government. That would be a big moment? Are you talking about a

coalition? If we fall a little bit short and we end up leading up a

coalition, that would not be a bad second prize. We should aim for the

top prize however. You're aiming for this with in four years? Up why

not? Were let us look at Plan B, a coalition. Who would you look to?

It would have to be Labour would win Det? Or the Liberal Democrats.

I have personally said on a number of times that I do not see how our

values and the Conservative Party baddies could come together

sufficiently to form a programme of government. That may be tricky with

the other parties because a programme of government could be

very ambitious, but I do think that we will by 2016 and be true and

full programme of government and if one of the parties to the centre or

to the left of the political spectrum are prepared to work with

us on a programme, then we would be happy to work with them. 25 seats

and you need six or so from the Liberal Democrats, you could go it

alone with them, the very party putting through these cuts in

Westminster? The Liberal Democrats are not in a great place. Their

fortunes may turn around, but at the moment they have five seats and

the may have even fewer in the next Assembly elections and maybe the

votes will come to us. Four years is an of long-time. Talking numbers

at this stage is a bit premature. You would rather do it deal with

the Liberal Democrats and Labour? would rather that we got in on our

own. I am not necessarily saying that. At it would rather be in a

Plaid Cymru government to maximise our programme. Whichever of those

other two parties and perhaps we would have greens in the Assembly

by that point, whichever of those parties would be prepared to come

with us on our journey and with our programme, then I would be open to

having discussions with them. Labour? Up why not? If they could

come and much our level. What happened in the health debate

before the end of term happened at the end of term. I think for the

future now, we would be going forward in a different way. On that

issue, he withdrew the whip and then you get that back? Was that a

climbdown? What I was hoping to do was an outline of my expectations

of what I thought we should do as a crook in the Assembly. This was

going forward into the future. I made a statement in the summer

outlining what I feel is an appropriate way for the Assembly

members to behave and I hope now that that is clear for everybody

and that we can go forward in a more positive manner than we did

then. Let us move on to the economy because you have made it clear that

he should take priority? This new Green Deal, no details yet, we know

it is based on a result's plan up in the 1930s. How would it work

here them? It would be different to that new deal. Thinking about

building in the long term, what we need to be done to do that, to wean

ourselves of our addiction to order. There are potentially thousands of

jobs to be powered by renewable energy. And we really need to ramp

up the amount of food we produce in Wales because the pressures that

are coming down the line, particularly with the droughts

associated with climate change could mean that we face that food

shortages in the future. We have to plan for that eventuality. We know

get it is only a matter of time before oil is unaffordable. What

will we do when people are unable to travel distances because the

price of oil is too high. We need alternatives and unless the plan

for that now, we find ourselves in a sticky situation further down the

line. That is why I am advocating planning now, creating jobs...

jobs, on energy, people in Anglesey listening to, those people will be

saying this is about energy, this is all about jobs, yet your message

to them is? My message to them would be jobs in renewable energy,

you can create more jobs in renewable energy... The amount of

money that you are spending on creating those jobs, you could

create more jobs in renewable energy, that is the argument that I

would put in that case. We see the other parties, are planning laws in

England now, they are rolling back from environmental restrictions,

sending out the message that being green is a bit at the expense of in

these times of that austerity. You are saying unleash the green agenda

now, which potentially is very expensive isn't it to? It may be

expensive, but I think it is a potentially less expensive than

some of the alternatives and if you look at things other than just

money, then it would be cheaper in the long run. Money is crucial now.

If we are going to turn the economy round, we're talking about higher

tax, in terms of income tax you wanted to be devolved.

necessarily. I have set up an economic Commission headed by Adam

Price and I will be looking to take advice from a commission about

exactly what we would do. A you want that formula over, because you

have said economically Wales must and on its own to have macro ft?

are responsible for raising our own taxes, taxes would have to go

through the roof! Given how few high earners are here, where is the

Then maybe changes to income tax which could be made which would

benefit more money coming into the coffers but there are other taxes

we could be looking at. I think we need to be looking a bit wider than

when we are looking at the moment. What about taxing pollution? That

is something we could do. What about providing tax breaks for

pension funds which are invested in Wales like they do in Canada? These

are things which are not look that at the moment. Pension funds cannot

say they are only going to invest in Welsh companies. There are

things which can be done now and things like for example, there are

two councils in England which are investing locally in pension funds.

There are things which can be done but obviously, we need more powers

and fiscal leaders at the Assembly and that is part of our agenda as

well. A big message last night was by a local, spend that pound in

your pocket locally. You are a busy mum, do you really think that when

things are tight, that people can afford to buy locally? Presumably

you shop in a supermarket. Occasionally. I try not to. I am

not saying I boycott supermarkets. Is it cheaper? It can well be. A

we'll try and buy things locally but the bill can be bigger whereas

if you are popping in for one weekly shop, you know it is cheaper.

If you are going for one weekly shop, you know what you're going to

spend and you can see that price going up. The message I was trying

to get across was if we can lock money into our communities, then we

benefit in a wider group of people. We can save guard drops if we lock

money into communities. So much of our money is leaving Wales. �6

billion of public sector pension funds leave Wales completely. That

is a situation that is crazy in the current sector. We need to bring

money back to Wales and locket in to our communities so that we can

create sustainable jobs where people are not going to up sticks

and leave. The jobs can stay in the communities. You want to pull down

the barriers, Wales be on its own and sink or swim there basically.

It is not about pulling down the barriers. It is about doing more

for ourselves, providing goods, primarily renewable energy and food

for our home market. At the moment, we are at the end of the supply

chain in terms of our food. When oil prices go up, we will find it

very difficult. It is so much about the economy, the deficit, food

production and basically, green energy is your green -- big thing.

There was not much in your speech yesterday about independence. We

all know you are for independence. Have you realised it is not a vote-

winner because you have made it clear you want to speak to people

beyond this conference and independence does not go down well

beyond here? I have been clear what I stand for about independence and

do I need to keep banging that drum? I would say, probably not.

What people want to hear from Plaid Cymru is what we will do on today's

problems now. That you have realised you cannot afford it as

you said in the Guardian. economy is everything. At the

moment, our economy is weak. When will Wales be able to afford

independence? When our economy turns around. When we have got

green jobs that will shop locally? We have had 20 years of economic

decline and Wales, we have got to see that turned round. The priority

for Plaid Cymru is economy and job creation and we're going to stick

to that. If nothing about health in your speech, why? You cannot cover

everything. Health is clearly an important issue and with the

changes being proposed, it is an issue at the top of the political

agenda. Education is another majorly important issue for people

in Wales. Within a short period of time, there is only a limited

number of things you can raise and I really did want to focus on the

economy. OK, after the speech yesterday, you were whisked off to

Cardiff Bay for the homecoming of the Team GB athletes. Way you proud

of them? I was proud of the athletes, it was amazing. Team GB?

Are I am a Welsh nationalist, I was supporting the Welsh athletes.

could have boycotted it? Why would I want to do that? I met them and

spoke to them. Some of them were local. Team Wales for the Olympics?

We have got that for the Commonwealth Games. Let's look

forward to the Commonwealth Games in 2014 where those athletes will

be there in a Welsh comers -- colours, flying the flag. A will

you be in Rio as First Minister? I am invited, it will be great.

have overrun but thank you for joining us this afternoon.

Let's go back to Tomos Livingstone outside. I am joined by Martin

Shipton, chief reporter of the Western Mail. We heard Leanne Wood

talking that her ambitions to be First Minister, to be in government

after 2016, but how difficult will that be for her? It is nice to have

ambitions but whether they will be realised is difficult. Plaid Cymru

is in a difficult position because politics at a UK level is very

polarised between the coalition government and the Labour Party. It

is very difficult for Plaid Cymru to get a foothold in an to get

their own ideas forward. The conditions under which Plaid Cymru

would conceivably form an administration are difficult to

envisage. I think you would probably have to have a Labour

Party in power at Westminster when something very badly went wrong.

The likelihood is the general election would be in 2015, the

Welsh election would be a year later so things would have to very

seriously unravel for a Labour government because at the moment,

with a Conservative, Liberal Democrat coalition in power in

Westminster, Labour in Wales is able to blame for essentially

everything and all the ills of Wales on that administration in

Westminster and they are reaping the electoral benefits as was

demonstrated in the local council elections. Given Leanne Wood's idea

in her speech to concentrate entirely on the economy, was it a

gamble given the situation you have described? I think from Plaid

Cymru's point of view, the only thing they can do at the moment is

tried to move imaginative ideas to help the Welsh economy. The Welsh

economy is in a difficult state. Wells -- Wales is the poorest of

the nations within the UK. People are agreed that the total focus

needs to be improving the economy of Wales. Therefore, I think it is

natural but that should be the case. If Plaid Cymru were banging on

about independence, a lot of people would see that as an irrelevancy. I

think probably big decision to concentrate on the economy is right.

There are no easy solutions. The problems are Wales has will take

years to sort out. They need to have a long-term approach to it and

this explains some of the ideas she came out within her speech, about

possibly giving tax breaks to pension funds which will invest in

the local economy. That is where the focus has to live. I think it

has been clearly demonstrated that this conference that there is very

little chance of Plaid Cymru going into government with Labour. We

have to remember that Labour does not have an overall majority in the

assembly at the moment. There has been continuing speculation that

they may turn to another party. Before the election last year,

Plaid Cymru was in coalition with Labour. That all ended but Labour

does still not have a majority. It seems from the approach thick

Leanne Wood is taking, she has ruled out any question of a

coalition with Labour during this administration. Maarten, thank you.

Some of the challenges facing Leanne Wood as they look to the

2016 election. Back to Bethan. Thank you.

Let's check what is going on inside the conference hall now. Back to

our reporter. Thank you. They have started hearing now from the Plaid

Cymru spokesman on health, that is the Ceredigion assembly member Elin

Jones. She is talking about the provision of district hospitals.

Let's hear what she has to say. TRANSLATION: These general

hospitals are important as part of a wider network of provision of the

NHS in Wales, provision which also includes regional centres which

gives more specialist treatments and also clusters of communities,

smaller hospitals which provide care for the elderly chiefly in our

communities, and of course, there is the movement to reduce the

dependency on hospital care by offering home care. But, as the

chair said, the network of district general hospitals are being

threatened. Plaid Cymru did warned before the 2011 election that

Labour in government on their rent would return to centralise services.

Labour, but First Minister Carwyn Jones accused Plaid Cymru of

scaremongering and of lying. Well, we were proved correct. We were

right. Those are the plans for centralising back now appear in all

parts of Wales, to centralise health services and to downgrade

general hospitals. We can see that in the West, the North and also the

plans for the valleys. We have seen the downgrading of Neath hospital.

The line of the Labour government is there is a medical need to

centralise services, but more often than not, in my opinion, it is

managerial conveniences which drive the changes and the medical opinion

locally at the grassroots is very clear in favour of retaining

services locally. I represent Aberystwyth and Ceredigion and

there is a group, a campaigning group in Aberystwyth for several

years. It is not Elin Jones the politician who runs this group in

order to make political capital of a discussion of the future, it is

the present staff from the hospital which run and formulate that group.

And staff and former consultants in the area, it is not me, it is

medical opinion that put forward the arguments. We must therefore

see national planning for our health service. The danger at the

moment is the health board plans services within their own

territories without a national overview. We have a Health Minister

who has given the local health boards carte blanche to do what

they like and carry out those changes. We have a national health

service and we need national planning with a local provision. We

have a Health Minister who does not take the responsibility and is not

democratically accountable for the decisions. She has transferred the

responsibility to the non- accountable health boards. We saw

national guidance for the health board and the One Wales Government,

but under the Labour government we do not see that guidance or the

accountability. So why would ask you to support the motion. I accept

the amendments, to, and I look forward to hearing comments of

conference on this important The way we move on to ask? Good

afternoon. I want to congratulate her for putting this motion forward,

it is very important. This is because we are battling it to

maintain our local hospitals. The first point I would like to make is

that we must remember two years ago, a commission was established and

the report was released in the Elfyn Llwyd of last year. But many

people to not remember the commission, but in that, there were

an number of important things that come up. First of all, the

commission said that it was important that health be provided

locally, as locally as possible to patients. The second point was that

this should be part of the consideration across all levels of

political decision in the government. As the government

proceeded to make decisions on transport, that health should be

part of a consideration as well and what we see is that inconsistency

at the moment. This is because of a Labour government marketing down

our public transport services, in Denbighshire, they have cut down

across the county, buses that are also go from west Wales over to

Wrexham and at the same time, they concentrate health services in

Wrexham that makes it more difficult for patience in west

direction to go to someone else. They ignored the commission, which

give it clear deadlines because of about �12,000. We must make the

government accountable to live up to what the commission and demanded

and if you ask, if it was mentioned earlier about consultants, who were

in favour, they were going to use consultants as a front to perform

these changes. Figure going to -- local surgeries have said no, this

will not help patients. The main reason is that Wrexham Hospital is

already full of people having to wait in hospitals, bed blocking is

going on, as they shut down the beds elsewhere, that will only be a

knock-on effect in Wrexham. It is not going to benefit anybody,

particularly for those elderly people who use the local hospital

and want to be with their families close to them. The one last thing a

would like to say his throughout the discussion, you're quite right

in saying that Les Lee Griffiths is using the local health boards, let

us bear in mind that it was a Labour government decision and why

we are fighting it to retain the local hospitals, we of course

criticise the decisions of the local health boards, but let us

turned that back on the Labour government, because it was they who

have the responsibility, they are guilty of this, not the health

boards, they just carry out the political decision that has come

from every Labour government. So let us end up our attempts to save

the hospitals remember who is making these decisions, it is

Labour, not just the health boards. Thank you. We will leave that

debate on the district hospitals. I will have a quick word with the

party's treasury spokesperson, Jonathan Edwards. Thank you for

coming to see us. Is your priority clearly in this conference on the

economy? How would you deal with it? We are having a debate about

the commission at the moment, first phase of reporting. This is about

devolving more powers? That is definitely part of the solution

because without these jobs creations, it will be difficult to

sort the economy out. I thought the speech yesterday was hugely

significant, focusing not entirely on the economy and creating jobs,

and as a result of the problems we face in our constituencies...

you going to create the jobs? was a number of key policy

initiatives that were announced yesterday. We're one year into the

new Assembly, we're early in the cycle and there have already been

major announcements yesterday. There was the economic Commission

which has led by Adam Price they have already done an interim report,

highlighting the major issues we face and the recommendations of

those that we face, the Green Deal we are looking at our strengths,

and next week we are looking at recycling material and all that

sort of work. Very exciting developments. Youth unemployment is

rocketing in Wales. Going green and getting people recycling and

getting all these jobs in green energy renewables, is that really

the answer? That has a part of the policies put forward yesterday.

Another one is an investment infrastructure fund to invest in

infrastructure and I will give you an example. In the House of Commons

on Monday there is a Bill going through the cupboards of �50

billion worth of guarantees for the UK government departments to spend

in terms of investment. The Welsh government should get about �2.5

billion for that. How are they going to draw on our money because

they have not got an investment arm ready to draw on that. Wales is

losing out because the Labour government does not have an answer

for these opportunities. In terms of the Green Deal comic you're

talking about creating a power house and creating jobs. You're

talking about the investment arm, that is spending. What about the

deficit? Where are you raining in in the spending? This comes in as

part of the Commission report, we are looking at job creation and it

comes together with borrowing powers which is essential for any

government. You borrow to invest. Every government in the World

borrows to invest and a descent -- it is essential we get those powers.

Where is the sense of looking at the big black hole and we have to

do our bit? It is all about spending isn't it? Micras it is the

- amid criticism of the UK government's policy on austerity.

If you are not generating revenues, you are not generating growth. A

you would not rain it back at all? The Conservative coalition with the

Liberal Democrats are going for a austerity measures, they are

austerity light as you Collet? There would be no austerity, is

that what you're saying? Unita be generating growth in the economy,

if you are not doing that, at the deficit is increasing and the debt

levels are increasing and the revenues are up dropping. That is

exactly what is happening now and what would have happened under

Labour. Ed Balls said that even a Labour's plans were over-ambitious

and I tend to agree with that. us look at taxation, what taxes to

you want devolved? To report put forward and detailed submission

including the array of taxation... Would income tax have to go up?

is a decision for the government of Wales. Would it go up? And the key

point of having those powers is that it focuses the Welsh

government and the wants to fund the public service on revenue

generation. At the moment the Welsh government gets a block, are the

equivalent of a child getting pocket money. It is handy though?

Senior Labour MP argued last week that he wanted to keep the can

system because they do not want to face grown-up politics. We are not

content with Wales and been at the bottom of these poverty leads and

we need to assume responsibility for ourselves and start working to

our strengths. We do not need any handouts are grants from London, we

stand on her own two feet, had we run our affairs? This is sure I do

and people want to know about it? How were we stand on her own two

feet economically? If you get those powers you would be generating more

wealth and it would increase your revenue. How would you do that?

alternative is a culture of dependency and a continuing

downward spiral. You say spend, create the jobs, the wealth comes,

you would spend where? And a member of the economic Commission and we

are beginning our work. I cannot prejudge the likely recommendations.

This is as long as a Plaid Cymru has been alive and this has been

the key ideal and still however many books we read, we do not know

how and independent Wales would be finance? We are in a different

place to Scotland. We have to react to that and the reality is the

Scottish government who are going to get powers, and the Northern

Ireland government is going to get corporation tax devolved, we need

to look at that. Let us come back to the Commission and the

possibility that these taxes will perhaps eventually be devolved,

would that be enough for a few years, a few decades? How fast is

his journey progressing? We are relaxed about it. Plaid Cymru has

been incredibly successful in terms of achieving some of our objectives

over recent decades, the referendum was a major step forward for us. We

are clearly now focusing our energies on the economy, there is a

crisis in a consensus. What we are saying today is that we need the

powers of job-creation it to create a different vision for the economy.

I think she is doing exceptionally well. She has made her mark on the

party. There has been a huge amount of work on the ground, behind the

scenes, it is never very easy for a new leader. You get judged on the

first 100 days in modern politics and you end up the leader for the

best part of the decade. Already we have seen that the party has moved

on, got behind Lianne and she is a very radical politician. She is

based on strong political principles and she has resumed the

debate and she is realigning politics in Wales. We are living in

exciting times. She will be First Minister in 2016? That is her aim,

she told us that this afternoon? That is our ambition. We will be

working flat out on everything we have got to make sure that happens.

Thank you. Let us go back to the keynote speech this afternoon at

the and that was by a Elfyn Llwyd. Last year was definitely a busy

year for the West Minister team, but I think we should mention some

successes along the way. With regards to our team in Westminster,

I am extremely grateful to my friends are, their loyalty a second

to none and all was a constant readiness to go the extra mile. He

is a very active member of the Science and Technology Select

Committee and Jonathan is a member of the Welsh Select Committee. I do

my part on the Justice Select Committee, however and none of us

or would be able to achieve anything without our hard-working

parliamentary staff and I wish to thank them offer all the work that

they do for us. The Queen's Speech in a implemented several long-

standing Plaid Cymru policies, least they were referred to there.

One example, the introduction of the groceries ombudsman and also

legislation to reform and the banking sector. Our team's

criticism of the UK's government policies has been firm, has been

consistent and if you will allow the punt, always on the money. We

have continued to hold the UK government to account on the

devastating proposals to introduce regional pay and of course, the

need for or a consequential to the proposed �33 billion investment on

high speed at two in England. It is worth �1.9 billion to Wales -- HS2

project. Down the corridor or, if I can put it that way, he has been an

invaluable help to us, covering a huge amount of legislation in the

house of Lords. Together, we have renewed calls for the devolution of

further powers to Wales through the next stage of the Silk Commission.

Moreover, I do believe that we continue to set the standard of how

a minority party can punch above its weight in the corridors of

Westminster. We are in fact the only parliamentary party there with

the 100 and -- are 100% membership of select committees and to that

extent we are unique. We are probably unique as well be in that

we're all bilingual, but that is another story! A clear example of

this was the cross-party overstocking inquiry which I was

privileged to chair over the past 12 months. We published our report

in February, calling on the UK government to bring in a specific

offence of stalking and to improve the training of professionals,

prosecutors, the police, social workers, probation officers. Also

the judiciary of course. The Government did something, but

government did something which hardly ever happens, it listened.

The Prime Minister announced that the government would implement our

chief recommendations and believe it or not friends, good in 11 days,

government's legislation based on a our draft Bill was passed by both

So as of November this year, stalking will be a named offence

and the training for criminal justice professionals will be far

more stringent, and as a result, it will save dozens of lives and it

will release many, many people from the utter hell of being stalked. It

was, I think, exceptional, of course. And it was also pioneering,

in that this was the first Independent parliamentary inquiry

of its kind to succeed. The BBC's parliamentary correspondent Mark

Darcy commented and I quote: Law- making is seldom this rapid.

I am certain that the fact that this inquiry was inclusive of all

parties and led by a minority party of Westminster played a major part

in its success. If only the government will always that co-

operative. Unfortunately, as you know and I know, that is far from

being the case. There are a certain number of challenges that we must

face as a group in the coming parliamentary term. Some have

become even more evident over the past fortnight. We are all familiar

with the recent history of S4C. The Channel's funding was slashed by

Jeremy Hunt and be parcelled as part of the BBC's funding licence

stream and the outcry that is rightly cause. History must not be

allowed to repeat itself under the new Kelt -- culture secretary. Our

group will do all in its powers to make this loud and clear to the

people at the DEC MS. In fact, the removal of Mr Hunt from that brief

was one of the few consolations to be taken from the Cabinet reshuffle.

It makes you even more appreciative of devolution, to think that in

health at least, Wales is out of Hunt's grasp. Looking to his

successor, I do not hold my breath that it will be better under her

either. I can only lead to the conclusion that the sooner media

powers are devolved to the government -- the Welsh government,

the better. We also bid farewell to Cheryl Gillan MP, whose tenure as

Welsh Secretary, one could fairly be described as uneventful. We

welcome in her place, Mr David Jones, a boy from Wales, who

claimed not to speak a word of Welsh when he stood for the Tories

in Chester. Now, he has discovered that he does in fact speak Welsh.

It puts me in mind of a remark made by the late Roy Jenkins MP, a

valley boy. A couple of blokes were walking down the street and one

said to the other, I hear the Jenkins boy has just got into the

cabinet. Yes, so I hear, he has got into the Cabinet. They say, you

know, one of them said that he is pretty lazy. The other said no, he

cannot be lazy. If he comes from here to develop that cut-glass

accent. Jokes aside, Lehane has already

made clear, the onus is now on the Secretary of State to prove that

the Welsh MP can have a positive impact at the UK cabinet table.

Time will tell. There were, I think, some surprises from this reshuffle.

The appointment of Chris Grayling as Secretary of State for Justice,

for example, only strengthens the need for criminal justice to be

devolved to the Welsh government. The Labour Party deny this lead. --

this need. There would obviously prefer Mr grayling to be in charge

of our justice system. Let's see what we know about this man. Mr

grayling is something of an unknown quantity in the justice field, to

put it mildly. In fact, he is the first non-lawyer to be appointed to

the post since the 16th century. Political hacks are quick to point

out that he was not Cameron's first choice for Justice Secretary. He

had first asked Iain Duncan Smith to take on the role and he refused.

I am afraid that Grayling will speed up the privatisation of the

prison state and youth justice, a catastrophe waiting to happen, if

the mess surrounding G4S before the Olympics was anything to go by. He

told the Daily Mail in 2009, I am advocating a hardline approach.

Hardcore thugs must go to jail, not be let off. Superficially, we would

all agree with that, I think. But comments like that hardly engender

confidence that Mr Grayling will be looking to appreciate the nuances

of troubled families, the need to tackle the causes of crime. Who

said that first? And the magnitude of focusing resources on

rehabilitation, rather than packing yet more prisoners into the present

state at a huge cost to every tax payer. Because Ken Clarke has shown

support for these initiatives, as Frances Cook director of the Howard

League for Penal Reform pointed out in a recent block, there are too

few are people in prison today than a year ago. Two it than a year ago,

number which might sound insignificant until you realise

that until a few years ago, even keeping geese population stagnant

was unthinkable. -- keeping the population stagnant was unthinkable.

Under Ken Clarke, real progress had been made to reduce the number of

children in prison and in doing, he did save money since each prison

place cost �40,000 a year and I believe that he has saved some

lives. But I sincerely hope that Grayling will come to see the

merits of this sensible approach. Don't be too alarmed. As a

fisherman, I am quite used to having grayling in my sights.

LAUGHTER. Thank you. As I said, the changes being wrought by Cameron in

London add more weight to the bike ride to be devolved, a cause which

#ColourGreen Has been making for -- a cause which Plaid Cymru has

been making for many years. In June this year I gave evidence to the

Welsh government's constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee

into the establishment of eight separate Welsh jurisdiction chaired

by David Melding a M. In May, I spoke on the same topic during a

meeting of the Welsh lawyers Association in London. I do say,

momentum is certainly gathering in this campaign. As our means of law-

making develops, as the Senedd grows in confidence, it stands to

reason that the structure of our justice system should develop to

encase it. It is remarkable to consider that Wales is the only

country in the world that has a legislature but no legal

jurisdiction of its own. Will work and put that right and I believe

that we will get a resounding result in the coming months, couple

of years possibly, but I think the momentum is with us and we need to

work harder and further on this particular subject but it is coming.

The yes campaign result in 2011 show that the majority of Welsh

voters believe that Cardiff and a Westminster should be the home of

decisions which affect their daily lives. So what quality should a

state possess in order to establish its own legal jurisdiction? The

criteria usually employed is that the jurisdiction should operate in

a defined territory. That clear in this case. That the jurisdiction

should have a distinct body of law, again, that is clear in this case.

That it should be supported by its own court structure and legal

institutions. They are there, all we need to do is change the name

plates. In a sense, Wales already has its own jurisdiction. Since

laws passed by the National Assembly pertain only to Wales.

Lawyers who practise environmental, criminal, family and administrative

law must have a thorough knowledge of the corpus of Welsh law, if they

are indeed to practise in Wales. Although criminal law has yet to be

devolved, any new Act passed by the assembly, may contain a new or

amended criminal offence, peculiar or particular to Wales. A separate

court structure to support this budding jurisdiction would

undoubtedly facilitate the process. That was so the keynote speech

earlier this afternoon. We can have a word with the chair of the party,

and Mary Jones. Let's just pick up the point are about devolution.

think it is crucial as the engenders in the UK diverge as

elfin was saying in his speech but he is also talking about a legal

jurisdictions so that laws passed a Wales can be dealt with by courts

to understand that those laws are distinct. We have professionals

calling for devolution and we have lawyers calling for a distinct

judicial system for Wales because they understand that let's say the

laws around something crucial at continuing care and who is entitled

to have their care paid for by the state I different in Wales now than

they are in England are also when you have found his consulting

solicitors in England, they are giving inaccurate advice, entirely

understandably. There has never been a parliament anywhere in the

world which does not have its own judicial system. This is inevitable,

it is question of when. That would be another step down the road of

devolution. You want independence in the end of the party, does it

get frustrating that you have this battle at every step? No, because

it is a process. It is something which needs us to evolve because we

need to take the people of Wales with us. It is a journey. Some

people might want to come all the weight independence, others might

decide it is a certain distance. That is what MPs say, come on a

journey. It is up to us to articulate people what independence

will look like and feel like for people's Real lives. That is the

task we have. Which is why as a party, independence was not there

in the speech yesterday. Independence was there in the

background but what Leanne Wood was saying clearly in her speech and it

makes an awful lot of sense to me and everyone here, we know that

people do not have that confidence at the moment. We know they are

fearful. People are saying to vote Labour to keep the Tories out.

is misleading, isn't it? I don't think there was any question about

misleading. In Leanne's leadership campaign, independence was central.

That is why she got support. We know when you are poor and

unemployed and you cannot put shoes on a children's feet, you're not

thinking about the future of your nation. What Leanne was saying you

have to build the economy. But an independent Wales, could people be

guaranteed more money? People could meet making those decisions for

themselves. Let's take a small country like Iceland which suffered

terribly in the crash and look at where they are now, with 4%

unemployment, with people's mortgages paid off, with the

bankers who committed crimes in prison, if Iceland can do it, Wales

can do it. We have more in the way of natural resources and we have to

build on that and use the resources for our people and knock profits

for multinational companies. If you are going to drive this, you have

got to have new supporters, not the people here and it is not full here

this time, is it? Are you disappointed? No, I think everybody

felt it would be different this time. It happens. Conferences come

and go. You have good ones and ones which are not so good. I think

people realise this is the beginning of a journey. Says some

have kept away to see where it is going? We are setting the direction

of travel and people want to hear as they have done, where the

priority will be. She has made that clear. I fully support that. I

think people will warm to the message. If people think about

Plaid Cymru, they think about independence. But it is about more

than that. It is independence with a purpose. It is not a panacea

where everything will be a Utopia. Let's just explore that, maybe in

the past, you have been seeing independence as a panacea? It is a

danger for members. They see it as a girl. A but there are down sides?

Of course. What would be the down sides of independence? There will

be ups and downs on all journeys. If you look at all countries across

the world, there are recessions and boom times. But Wales would

flourish you say. If you have economic levers we would be in

control of our own destiny. That is the crucial thing. In an

independent Wales, the people would be decided and there are risks in

any political situation but the self governing Wales would be able

to make the decisions ourselves. What we do know is our economy, we

could go back 700 years, but in the last 150 years, our economy has

been running this country for the benefit of the south and east of

England. That is why the banking crash hit a so hard. Iceland,

Norway and other countries have not been able to escape. But we would

be in Rocky Waters wherever the Barnett Formula is set, at least it

There is not anyone who would argue that the Barnet formula is fair. If

we were self-governing, we would be able to make our own decisions and

created the wealth. We need to create the wealth in order to

create a fairer society. It is not just independence for its own sake,

it is about independence for what we can do with those powers to make

people's lives better, to build a fairer country and to protect our

language and culture and natural environment. We cannot do that when

the final decisions about too many things are made 150 miles away.

Back to the conference. You suggested it was not one of the

best in terms of attendance. A membership is up however. It is

their choice. Geographically, it may be challenging for people.

There we are. We represent all of Wales so it is important the go to

different parts of the country. is all right to pay your sons, is

that all you want? Campaign is about how you engage with members.

Everyone has something they can contribute. We have not had the

biggest numbers here, but the conference hall was packed for only

an's speech. The membership has gone up by 25% since the beginning

of the leadership campaign. I do not think her politics is about

sitting in halls, it is about being out in communities and working.

that the future? It is one way. We have had lots of references to be

needed to engage younger people. We need to knock doors, delivered

leaflets and put out press releases. New media can be engaging and we

need to be savvy about how we use it. I am useless, but I am trying!

The generation of young people in the party know exactly how to use

it. Were you surprised there was no mention of Health yesterday? No. As

is happening this afternoon, you will have noticed that the themes

that have not been explored at great length, there was no talk

about education, we have had numerous motions today.

speeches have been poured over. Leanne Wood made a conscious choice

to focus on the economy. In the end, our public services are dependent

on the economy. If people are not in work, you cannot afford to have

the health service you need and the education service you need. We have

been discussing that at length, but she was focusing on the need to

build the wealth that enables us to deliver services. Let us talk about

education and the GCSE row. The remark King is helping to -- is

happening this weekend. You are backing a Leighton Andrews on the

marking the GCSEs? That is his decision. The UK ministers should

not be interfering. There are questions to be asked about this.

That is something we will be racing in the Assembly. This is about the

fact that Leighton Andrews is also the regulator. You want that

change? You have to hear what the Minister asked to say because the

situation as it transpired should never have happened and I think it

is right it is being addressed. We forget the effect of this is having

on the pupils. My daughter sat GCSE English. We have supported what

Leighton Andrews did, but of call in England is saying that the Welsh

government as the regulator agreed to the changed. We do not know if

that is right. I am glad that our Assembly members has asked for the

committee to come back early to find out if that the English

regulator is telling the truth. Did our government agreed to Les? I

think we need some transparency and I think it is very unsettling. I

know young people who fail to get onto their apprenticeships, fail to

get into the sixth form colleges they wanted to go into, those

grades can be like changing and I think the Minister does have to

answer did his civil servants do some kind of deal with the English

regulator? If he did no, we need to know why a. Let us go back outside

now. The sun has come out and I am joined by at councillor and a party

activist from Swansea. You know a bit about it trying to win votes in

areas that are not considered your hard man. What have you heard this

weekend that will make your task easier? A bit of positivity. We

have talked about the economy and issues close to people's hearts.

People are feeling the pain of the cuts from Westminster and feeling

the way that the Labour government are not doing a lot about it. We

have heard how we will tackle that. What we will do to improve the

economy in Wales, looking at procurement policy, how we are

looking at getting jobs are to local companies and different

sectors. We will ask you a similar question. What did you make of the

speech? I thought it was an awesome speed. I thought she came across as

related will and that is important. A lot of the stuff that she was

saying it rang true, especially all that Cup some biting, like the

welfare reform and that's the thing. You need ideas that are going to

resonate with normal people, people who are struggling and I think it

really did that. What sort of mood did you think of the party

activists are in as this conference draws to a close? I think it is

very positive. We all have a renewed sense of what we are about

as a party. We are left of centre a me want to make sure everyone gets

what they need. Also the grass roots staff. He if you are involved

in the party, it is about to getting everyone involved, every

activist at every level. Helping out in the community, so I am very

happy. How would you sum up the mood? I think there is a sense of

purpose and aspiration. What Plaid Cymru is about is a better Wales.

We are setting out the steps to achieve that. That is the message

and the purpose for the next few years is to go back to our

community, work hard with people to make sure that the successes of

Westminster are curved and to build for the future. Thank you both very

much. They are quite happy with the way things have gone. We will head

back to the studio now. It is getting a bit cloudier out there

now. Let us go into the hall. There have been a cure discussions about

reforming the health service in Wales but now we have moved on to a

panel discussion about the new direction for the United Kingdom.

Let us have a lesson. -- listener. If we look at the structure, the

constitutional structure, as it grows, there is always been a

different organisation for administering Wales. There is an

element that has differential, not just a difference in language, but

the difference in terms of the location of people, but also from

the days when the term was used for the people and the people he lived

in that location has been treated in a different way. Therefore, to

answer your question, more gently, know. I do not think there ever was

a union, I never used Britain in that sense as a historical word and

a very complex word. It goes through different periods of

meaning different things. For me, Unionism he is something to aim for

her. United Nations, united Europe, Manchester United's. It is usually

not democratic indeed! And think you are right to say it would be

unwise to say that definitely we know what the apps low results of

devolution are. In thinking of these questions, I was poring over

this book and has called the end of Britishness and in reading it,

where he talks about the psychological violence, one can see

what the change in culture has been and the national confidence that we

have as individuals, that confidence amongst young people who

see the loyalty as being to Wales. I see that there is a great

difference sense that the modern devolution process. It will not

refer to it is in historical terms. In terms of 1997, I see that

confidence amongst people and that people call themselves Welsh as

well. Yes, I agree that the mindset of our country has changed

significantly. Can I come back to you what Jonathan have to answer

the question? He recently suggested that the people of Scotland could

no longer consider themselves British if they were to vote for

independence? Do you agree with that? When I heard that he was

making this grandstanding keynote speech, I thought it had the

potential to be hugely significant. The debate in West Minister at the

moment in terms of Lords reform, at... A guilty pleasure, I quite

like Ed Miliband that I feel pity for him. I think he has some good

ideas but he is being held back by his own party and those big debate

in the party are quite interesting. The natural conclusion of his

speech on English identity is that he would call for political

recognition of that in English parliament and it was sadly lacking.

Of all the interviews I have seen by political leaders, he did one

for Channel 4, and it was one of the was painful ones I have ever

seen. It is probably just as bad as the one I had just done for the

BBC! It laid bare and I met Stefan, the weekend afterwards, and he laid

bare that there was a contradiction that Unionist politicians find

themselves in. They say that Wales and Scotland can exist as a nation,

it does not have to be a state and they say that Britishness cannot

exist without statehood. That is an enormous contradiction in the

Unionist parties. What we are seeing as a result of that historic

court victory by the SNP last year that we had this referendum in

Scotland on independence, for the first time ever Unionist parties

are having to justify the British state. It is not the national

parties having to justify why they want and national status for our

own countries, it is the Unionist parties having to justify the

British state. We are living in very exciting times as a result.

You do not use the term Britain, but lots of people do. Is there a

Britishness they can survive be on the changing constitutional status?

I was not happy with that the petition, because I thought it was

over simplistic. I think the nature of it is so varied in its

development and that it is impossible for me to talk about

some identity and over different periods. It keeps changing.

Fantastic stuff. A fantastic stuff he wrote. Developing the idea of

Britain, and Elizabeth the first, but of course it is now Elizabeth

In asking the question and what happens after Scotland with a

referendum on independence, I think we expand our horizons and beyond

the borders of the three geographical unit of Britain and I

think we should be looking at other small independent countries like

Denmark, Norway and Sweden. And I think that is where hour horizons

lie in this party, anyway. And to look at their status as countries.

Of course, it is thoroughly inevitable that we will have to

redefine the relationship between Wales and other countries in the

British Isles, but also, we should be asking the question what is

Wales'' place in Europe? And I think the countries I have

mentioned. Studying constitutional set-up as in other countries, can

you collaborate on bat angle? and about angler file and I believe

the process of independence and devolution gives us an exciting

opportunity to redefined what it means to be British. Maybe most of

us in this hall would not identify with the idea of Britishness as it

is now because it is so intertwined with the issue of British state

could, but what I think we need to find in these islands is

accommodation for a twin-track Britain, if you like. One that is a

reformed United Kingdom that can accommodate -- accommodate a

federal set-up so they can have that but also enjoy a level of self

determination and then the other track for Britain which would be

along the model of the Nordic countries, like the Nordic Council,

that you would have the British- Irish Council which would

accommodate then the Independent States and the devolved States and

the Crown dependencies within these islands, so you would have both

frameworks that respond and accommodate the different

constitutional status of Britain. I think we should be relaxed about

that and we should be excited about the prospects that that gives us.

What it means there is any nations which are still part of the United

Kingdom, if they want to take the step to independence, there would

not be any institutional problem because we would have the framework

within the Council of the aisles or the British-Irish Council. If we

look at the Nordic model, there are different ways we could work with

our fellow leaders. Defence is one of them. Under it European defence

co-operation, there are nations which come together to form a

collective battle groups. A number of countries contribute towards a

single battle group. I think it would make sense we would have a

British-Irish battle group with a rotating command structure which

could bring our nations together to work on defence as part of European

project but also on a day-to-day co-operation. There are a number of

fields. What is important is we recognise and the institutions

recognise the sovereignty of the people of the individual nations.

If that is respected within the framework of the United Kingdom and

then within the framework of the Isles, that would provide us then

with a mechanism which is far more responsive than we have now.

TRANSLATION: It is with that discussion that we leave the events

from the conference hall from this afternoon and indeed from this

annual conference. Discussions are included about the economy, health

and the future of the United Kingdom. Plenty to discuss and I'm

sure the issues will be touched on with you, Bethan, back in the

studio. Thank you. For the end of the programme I am

joined by Adam Price, would we describe you as the guru of the

party these days? Just an ordinary member. And our captain. Adam Price,

R U full-time in the party? You are not an elected member at the moment

but you are very much in charge, are you? No, I think it is called a

portfolio of interests. Once Plaid Cymru is in your blood, a never

disappears completely. You watched Leanne yesterday, presumably you

were part of the process of that speech, she talked about having a

team around her, you knew what was going to be in the speech? She had

a team of people. I did not write any of the jokes so I do not want

credit for that! What is interesting is Welsh politics is in

a hiatus of -- a hiatus period at the moment because we do not have

an imminent election. You heard that Plaid Cymru is going through a

period of deep thinking. Any party which goes through a period of

disappointment, what happens is you get an opportunity for new ideas.

In a sense, you could even say that Plaid Cymru is a movement which it

achieved its objective and is struggling to find a new role. I

think it is beginning to identify that new role. Particularly the key

issue of the Welsh economy. If we do not get that right, then all the

other plans are academic. On the economy, we have talked to Lehane,

we have talked to Jonathan Edwards who clearly did not enjoy the

interview, on the economy, you may be can absolutely explain this

green New Deal. It is work in progress. We have got the man who

savaged Paxman talking about interviews. You must know the

detail of Howard went. You say it will create a lot of jobs and we

have heard about green energy and shopping local, that is not going

to fix the economy, is it? It is green in two sensors. It is green

in the literal sense that we have a competitive advantage in the areas

of renewable technology. It is green in the more metaphoric sense

that actually, what we need to do with a big idea is to find those

other sectors where we have a competitive advantage. What we need

to do is ask where is the world economy going to be in 15 or 20

years' time, and how can this nation of 3 million fit into that.

What are we specifically good at where we can carve a niche and we

do not have the answer at the moment. But Leanne Wood is talking

about being First Minister in 2016 and jobs are needed now, if you say

you're going to fix the economy and in terms of your vision, people

want to know where the jobs will be. She did put out three broad areas

which give a direction of travel, new institutions, pension funds, �6

billion in public sector pension funds in Wales not a penny of it

invested in Wales. But Wales cannot govern the market so. Civil

servants on not the best placed to come up with ideas to come up with

the business sector. Civil servants work within a particular context.

We need a new specialist agency and come to terms with the fact that

the business birthrate has collapsed in Wales and we are not

producing research and development. The one next? Are want to be a

technology entrepreneur. You do not see yourself as an elected

politician? What I would like to see is more and different people

getting involved in politics, including people with all sorts of

backgrounds and politics is too important in Wales to be left to

politicians. People also want to know what is next for Adam Price

because you are a key member of this party, are you going to go

back to Westminster? Do you want to be leader one-day? Any thoughts?

would like the opportunity to serve up some point in the future, I have

said that. But there are other ways to contribute and what I want to do

is to create jobs and do that as an entrepreneur but working with

politicians like Leanne Wood who understand that that is the

critical question. Unless we get that right, or the other wonderful

plants we have in terms of the future of Wales, to be honest with

you, they are abstract and academic. Last word, Vaughan. In terms of the

positioning of Plaid Cymru, the goal has been achieved, they are

struggling to find a new one, would you agree with that? Might do not

think the goal has been achieved in terms of the ultimate goal. Plaid

Cymru did have a step change. It established an elected assembly or

parliament. In a sense, independence was always a distant

dream for Plaid Cymru, compared to the SNP. The SNP was always a

political party from the beginning which was focused on independence.

Plaid Cymru was more of a movement than a party which was about

protecting Welsh culture. The Eames originally were about defending the

economy and culture of Wales. Self- government was a means to that end.

They now say we're in that process so where is the end of that

process? How does that process and up defending the economy and

cultural ways. We should be talking about 2014 which is a referendum in

Scotland. To what extent will events their shape this party?

Welsh politics is facing a giant red Reset button that is governed

by the referendum in Scotland and what happens in the general

election six months after that. If Labour come back into government,

if the referendum is no, that is entirely different to yes

referendum in Scotland and a Conservative government at UK level.

This is a government which is having to prepare for all sorts of

a bench while it is.-all sorts of eventualities. Is your fate in

Scotland's hands? I am not a betting man but Alex Salmond is and

I would not bet against him. Will this man lead-up Plaid Cymru one-

day? It is for him to answer. A fire was Alex Salmond, I would put

some money on him. Thank you both ever so much. We lookout for Adam

Price the entrepreneur in Wales and thank you, Vaughan. We will be back

together presenting on S4C on Wednesday night. That is it from

the conference in Brecon. The GB Wales rally have been and gone, the