16/02/2012 Question Time

Tonight we are in Nottingham and welcome to Question Time.

On the panel with me here the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke, the

former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, Liberal Democrat peer

Susan Kramer, the businesswoman and financier Julie Meyer and Owen

Jones, author. APPLAUSE.

So our first question, Andrea Ben - - Bennington, please. How would you

solve the unemployment crisis? have had figures today of the

highest for many years, well, Julie Meyer, you are new to the panel,

but you are a dab hand at the economy. What do you think? Well, I

think a lot of the people - it depends on where they are in their

skills set. Later in life they might have skills and have always

wanted to set up a micro business, there's a lot of people who have

got laid off that tell me it's the most thing that ever happened, I

don't mean that disrespectful. If it's kids coming out of school and

trying to get up on the ladder and so forth, we have taken on about

four interns and we would probably take on more if we could if there

was a way we could do that even more, to give them something to get

them going. We need to get the word out that it's everybody's

responsibility, frankly, to bring in interns and spend sometime with

them and connect them in and get them job experience. You are saying

employers aren't taking on people where they should be, why not?

First of all, I think just connecting. We are connected to

some great institutions like a student leadership organisation, it

has all the enterprise societies in the UK so we can find interns

easily. I am not sure that every business can do that. But I really

think that it's going to be in five years we are not going to be

talking about unemployment so much, it's going to be unemployment and

self-employed and that's the line between that's going to be much

more merged. The figures show 2.6 million, just over, unemployed. Ken

Clarke, how would you solve this crisis? I have to make a passing

reference to the deficit which burdens us and that has to carry on,

we have to keep German-type interest rates despite the fact we

have a Greek-type deficit. Everything would go wrong if we

lose confidence and interest rates start going up. Alongside that we

have to be business friendly, growth-led and we have to lower

taxation, as we have corporation tax, lower taxation for the lowest

possible level of taxpayers, we have got to boost enterprise zones

we have started. We have to help small businesses raise money. A

whole lot of things you will find in the financial financial pages

about enterprise loan schemes and so on. Doesn't seem to be working

so far. We are going to be four, five years perhaps, certainly three

before we are back to normality and you know, it's not very newsworthy

stuff but to businessmen it matters a lot and in the longer-term we

have to rebalance our economy, we have to have the better educated

workforce, the right kind of workforce, that's why we have got

these technology colleges opening, university... All right, so five

years. All these apprenticeships. Off list of things you have done,

but you are saying five years before the figures fall. We are in

the worst financial crisis anybody now living has seen. And most

western democracies are struggling. We I think are seen by the outside

world as coping better than most. Alongside tackling the immediate

crisis, we have got to proceed in way that is help modern hi-tech

companies start up, getting the workforce they want, give people

apprenticeships, it's going to be a long haul. We have to create the

conditions for a real economy and to get back to growth. The woman in

the fourth row. With the retirement age keeping going up how are there

going to be openings for young people coming through? APPLAUSE.

Owen Jones? I don't think it's either or in that sense. I don't

think we should be in the business of putting older workers against

younger workers. The reality is this Government promised us a

private sector-led recovery, that's not happened and the fact the last

quarter last year, whilst 74,000 public sector jobs were lost over

5,000 private sector jobs were created and every single measure

jobs, growth, borrowing figures, this this Government's austerity

agenda has absolutely disastrously failed. APPLAUSE. If we look

elsewhere, for example, funnily enough in the United States, the

heartland of free market economics, rather than focusing on the massive

austerity we have seen here and abroad the public stimulus, which

has meant that unemployment in the United States is now falling, it's

lower than it is here. Sorry, but that's wrong. We are not in the

1980s. The big, big, big thing has happening is entrepreneurship in

the young. You have kids in their 20s on - set up jobs, when they

should. You are talking about the States? No, here. It's not

happening here. I don't know anyone under 30 who thinks they work for

anyone any more. Even the four people under 30 who do for me, they

have a completely different view of employment and setting up their own

businesses. Julie f you don't have demand in the economy it doesn't

matter how entrepreneurial people are, jobs are not created. APPLAUSE.

Susan Kramer, your party's part of the coalition, I don't know how

much you support the coalition, are you 100% behind the coalition?

much a supporter, if we don't have the deficit reduction austerity

measures we would be in dire straits. And it's provided the

framework which gives us the potential to regrow our economy.

you think five years in the way that Ken Clarke was saying? I think

Ken is overly pessimistic, and I will tell you for a couple of

reasons. One is, can I pick up Owen's point when he said in the

United States they haven't had austerity. That's a misreading of

the US figures. I have spent a lot of time there. In the local at the

state level and I look and see what's happening with my

grandchildren, teachers cut in the school, social workers removed,

people receiving no benefit whatsoever. That's at the austerity

within the state level which is where all the services are provided

in the United States, has been absolutely... What are you saying

nothing to be learned from the United States experience?

always learn from people. What is happening here and crucially

important now, we are seeing the beginning signs, it's slow, it's

choppy, but more jobs were created in the private sector in the last

quarter, so we are getting some growth. We know there's a pick-up

in manufacturing, a pick-up in exports. We are getting the

beginning of that rebalancing that we all think is important. It's

choppy waters. We are on course to three million unemployed in this

country. That's employment is always the last thing that recovers.

If you are unemployed and you don't have a job, it is hugely painful.

Is there anything you would like to see done? The questions with how

would you solve the crisis? We are still not getting the funding to

small businesses. Many of which work in a micro climate, could hire

one or two ace digsle -- additional people. How would you achieve that,

get the noun small businesses? think let's take down the barriers

and get a raft of new small banks such as you see in places like

Germany. Hold on. All right, John Prescott. I have to say since we

have given billions to the banks and they've failed to give the

money they promised to small businesses, that seems a

responsibility of Government to act. APPLAUSE.

Let me give another point, before I came here Ken, I have your speech,

you were the Chancellor and it was in 1993. I hope you keep them and

study them carefully, John. bedside reading reading! One good

reason, when was the last time we had three million unemployed? After

15 years of a Tory Government, you were brought in, Ken, as you say in

your speech, to get people back to work, to get stability in the

economy right, to reduce - and get growth. How do do you it, you cut

benefits of people, put the real real poverty, create more

unemployment because that's exactly what this Government is doing, but

what you do, you pay more because you don't get the growth in the

economy. Are you saying that's what he did in 93? Absolutely, that's

Ken's speech. Wait a minute, Ken. Let him speak and I will give you a

chance. Don't be hassling me! LAUGHTER. Would I ever! If it's

about the level of affected demand. Julie, all these things on the side

maybe useful but you have got to have a real effective demand in the

economy. Three million unemployed won't be solved by that way, one

thing you could do which the Tories have stopped, they called all those

jobs state jobs in the north-east, so the north that had a million of

the jobs of the two million jobs we created. They create three million

unemployment. Do you remember that, Labour's not working, one million.

Each time they're in on the policies they have, have you mass

unemployment. APPLAUSE. All right. What would do you to solve the

problem? On growth you have to live the effective demand and if you

tell me... How would do you that? Put more money into the economy. By

the way if you think they don't do that, borrowing has gone up 150

million since they got on the job. Patience, panel. I will come back

to you. I will pass you the speech, you can study it while we...

APPLAUSE. See what it was you said. The man in the third row. He did

improve it. Absolutely, I am trying to find it. It was the rest that

took over. Hang on. The most alarming thing that I think about

this issue is youth unemployment which is almost doubled in a year.

I work in a school in Nottingham and there's over a million 16-24-

year-olds unemployed and the Government's cutting the

connections programme, it's cutting the EMA, it's putting up tuition

fees for students. What actually is this Government doing? Hold the

question there. The woman in the second row. Speaking as someone

under 30, looking for a job after university, Wye like to ask Miss

Meyer how she thinks people in my position can afford to do unpaid

internships? We paid our interns. What do people in their 20s, they

know a lot about the new digital world and we encourage corporates

everywhere we go who are desperate to try to understand how digital

business models are going to affect industries, right, that's where we

have to encourage. It's not about what the Government does. It's

about getting corporates what have not crossed to this digital to

entkpaeupblg with 20 -- engage with 20-year-olds, get these guys in as

focus groups to tell Tesco, Virgin, that's where the corporate should

be engaging, that's their responsibility as citizens. It's

not about being unpaid interns. We have four, we would take on more if

we could afford it. There are 1.1 million unemployed women in this

country. David Cameron says he wants to see more women in the

boardroom shouldn't he be doing more to help them keep their jobs

first? Ken Clarke, you have had a chance to study it,... John

Prescott said you delivered it in 93 you did the right thing, that's

what you said. No, no it wasn't's Labour's policy now. Hang on, don't

go on too long. I haven't said anything at all so far! I won't

tell you the time, but you have said enough. What was it you did

then that you can't do now, that's a simple question? We took over a

problem again of debt and deficit, I had to cut a lot of public

spending and create kbs -- conditions to get growth.

Unemployment rose for a bit. It peaked about 95. Thereafter it fell.

I handed over to my successors, falling unemployment, falling level

of debt. We soon went into surplus. Growth with low inflation by having

sensible economic economic policies. I despair listening to the - I

realise it's serious crisis, youth unemployment is particularly bad

because it's the young who are hurt worst when it's their school

leaving year comes in the middle of the deepest recession we have had

and longest recession for a long time but you do not get out of it

by saying let's spend a lot of money, let's borrow it from

somebody, and find ways of putting money in the economy. We have been

putting money in the economy to excess for the last 15 years and I

- I was technical when I answered first of all because the actually,

because I have been Chancellor, what you do to stimulate businesses

and nurse people out of it has to be technical. Small businesses, we

do have an enterprise loan guarantee scheme I think it's

called, guaranteeing loans to small businesses. Only yesterday the

limits were raised. I don't mind people haven't heard of it, they

won't t only appears in the Financial Times probably. I

mentioned the apprenticeships, we have a lot on youth unemployment.

The things we have scrapped weren't working. It's the people who worked

on the schemes who are pro- our youth contract is extremely good

and we have got to... We have been down the list. But I want two brief

One of the most awful responses, Tesco taking on people for free.

Jobseeker's allowance and nothing else. It's a disgusting attempt by

big corporations to exploit unemployment and if this Government

- it's their response. Susan Kramer, on behalf of the Government, you

can answer the point. Injure plan is to live beyond our means and the

jobs we create. Slave labour is acceptable? Without paying them?

Stop yelling and take a look. and join the Green Government.

They've got lots of people like you. I think it's crucial that people

know there are things like 1.1 billion going on subsidising youth

in work, work experience apprenticeships, so the universal

credit will mean you can go back to work without losing benefit. There

is a raising of the income tax starting point, so when you are

working you get to keep more of your money. All of those things are

going to help fuel and build the growth in the economy and the jobs

which are absolutely crucial. When we see a recovery in the eurozone,

which I predict later this year, you will see another surge.

said briefly, that you thought that Ken Clarke was pessimistic talking

about five years. What do you think, when the economy will recover and

the figures will fall? We are starting to see signs now. They are

choppy and they'll be shaky. When will it be down to a decent level?

You'll start to see some real improvement even feeding through to

numbers by the year end. It will be slow. We have to prepare people for

the fact we have to stick to the task for maybe four years until

whatever time we get back to normal, economic growth. The woman in

yellow. What the Government is also doing is pushing people, the most

vulnerable and poor people in our communities, into work when they

are not ready to. And no pay. connected, because what you have

who are people on sickness benefits being pushed into employment or

pushed towards it when they are not fit to work. That's the reality.

You might not like it. A comment from over there. Then I must move

on. We have used a quarter of our time. We'll come back again and

again. Can I come back to Susan on one point? Make your point. About

the jobs. I was reading yesterday it's the highest unemployment for

17 years and there's supposed to be 10,000 jobs on the market and there

are 460,000 jobs in the economy. Can I ask where those jobs are?

don't see them, is what you mean? don't see those jobs. I can't go

around the table once again. We must move on to another question. A

question from David Philips, please. Does the election of police

commissioners risk politicising the police force? The proposal to elect

police commissioners and one of our panel is proposing to stand as a

commissioner, in Humberside. John Prescott, does the election of

commissioners politicise the police force? Is it a good idea? Susan

Kramer? My great opposition to this is because I just think politics

and police don't mix. As you probably gathered, I lived for many

years in the United States and I saw some good elected police

commissioners, but my goodness, I saw some who are very political. I

would wish we didn't have this system, but since we've got it and

I say this without in anyway denigrating John, I would like to

see people come forward who are independent members of the

community, not associated with political parties. I don't want to

see, if wherever possible, I would like to avoid having party

political politics tied in, in anyway. How can awe void it,

because parties - John Prescott you'll stand as the Labour

candidate, won't you? Yes. I say this to people who are listening,

because there will be people listening who would come forward,

who would be able to play the roles. What is the point? What will they

do? It's coalition policy. I don't care. To me the reality is that

policing is far too precious to become party political. People have

to have confidence and faith that there is no political colour in the

police that are out on the streets. John Prescott. You are standing as

a commissioner. I'm standing. I voted against this. I voted and my

party voted against it. Why are you standing? If you will let me answer

it, clever guy. I'm not being clever. You are. Give me the chance

to give an answer. Don't push me. It's that one. It's the left hook.

It's a very important point. We opposed this and I voted against it

too, because the fear was it would politicise it. That is one of the

difficulty. We also said it's going to cost �125 million to run these

elections and you could have had 4,000 police on front-line duties.

That is what the Labour Party wanted. However, the Government

have decided they are going to have this. It is very much political,

whatever you might say about it. We have decided we have to fight that

election. In those circumstances, I have been prepared to offer myself

as a candidate in the area of Humberside, perhaps to avoid some

of these difficulties that may come about. Once they decided the

election and once that was the policy and I might say, I voted

against going into the Common Market, but once the people decide

to go in, as politicians, you get on with the job and that's what I'm

offering to do. Can you tell us what would you do? What power do

you see yourself wielding over the police? It's set out in the

protocol. What do you want to do different from the moment? They are

getting rid of the Police Authority and putting in elected

commissioners and that commissioner will have the power to dismiss. It

is quite a radical proposal. It is a statutory duty on the

commissioner to ariev at a plan with the Chief Constable -- arrive

at the plan with the Chief Constable, to work out policies for

five years and you have to become the community voice to make sure

that influences the panel. That is laid out in the protocol. I'm

following that. You have these in the United States, Julie Meyer,

would you like to see them in Britain? It's not something that I

really follow closely. Nothing to say about that. Ken Clarke? I think

you have to give the people more credit for common sense actually,

because I don't think they will vote for people who just stand for

commissioner on straight-forward party political exchanges about

levels of police spending or whatever it happens to be and I

think what we will get is them voting for people who persuade the

public that they are going to be accountable for the overall crime

and law enforcement strategy in the county. We have always had that.

The Chief Constable can't do that. He's in charge of operations. He

actually is the commander of the Police Service, but there's a limit

to the extent in which he can engage in partisan debate about the

policy locally. We have a Police Authority, which is meant to be the

public body that is responsible. That's meant to be accountable to

the public. I very much doubt whether anybody in this audience

has the first idea what their Police Authority is, what it does,

they probably never had any contact with it. It doesn't work. We are

trying to make the Police Service more accountable by having a figure,

who will be identified, because he will be voted for and set out, as

John will have to, if he becomes the candidate, what exactly he's

going to propose and discuss as a strategy, to tackle things in

Humberside are worried about. are the Justice Secretary. What

kinds of things - I'm not responsible. You know about these

things. You are a grand figure in the coalition Government. What sort

of things? Actually I would wish to start debating here how we tackle

the problems in Nottingham on Friday and Saturday night without

destroying it as a cultural centre. Whether we are giving enough

attention to antisocial behaviour, to some of the more serious crimes.

How you are going to identify the crime which seems to be organiseded

in parts of the county -- organised in parts of the country and the

public will identify with an elected commissioner and villagers

and parts of Nottingham will go to the commissioner and expect him to

know what is really bothering people in Bradford or wherever and

will discuss what actually ought to be concentrated on if it's not

being done so now. The Chief Constable will have control of the

Police Service and delivering it. The Chief Constable will discuss

with the commissioner, but this is all new to the public, because the

public at the moment are not engaged in this. They write to

their MP saying not enough is being done by all the youths who come

every weekend and break up the bus shelter in my constituency. Then

no-one of them ever writes to the Police Authority because they

wouldn't know who it is. It will be more accountable. I have a question

for John Prescott. I'm a lawyer myself and I want to know having

been involved in an assault yourself, what - how do you feel

you actually qualify for this role of Police Commissioner? Well I

suppose you could say out of any politician and you might believe it

is true, that goes into a job and probably not from that area, if it

was justice, could I have any judgment in that, if it's in

transport you could argue that, but you are putting yourself forward

and the people will make a decision. He's talking about you throwing a

punch. I recognise the lawyer's language. What I'm asking is how do

you feel you are qualified for the role having assaulted somebody

yourself and as a lawyer I can tell you it's an assault? I can tell

it's a lawyer's question. What this new proposal is to express the view

to become the voice of the people on their concerns, many which Ken

has just said and to see it's put into the plan. I think I can do

that. I've been 40 years a MP and there are things I can do. I think

I bring the skill to understand and work with people to express their

view in the crime plan for the area. I don't have to be a lawyer for

that. You Sir up there on left. APPLAUSE

I would like to know who will pay for the commissioners and the

elections for the commissioners. Is it local Government or central

Government and if it is local, will that mean even more cuts which we

can ill afford? You will may one way or the other. Central taxation.

The man there. I don't think we need a figurehead. We all know what

the problems. We need more police on the street sorting out the

problems. The woman up there. live in a small town outside of

Nottingham. We have antisocial behaviour problems. The way we deal

with it is our local police force always have meetings with us. My

local Bobby knows me, knows the kids in the area. I talk to him and

they do get stuff done. I agree with what people are saying, we

need more police on the street talking to us rather than some

commissioner in an office waiting for a letter. Even with the

commissioner, they are going to reduce the resources by 20%, 16,000

police are going to go, they are the front-line people that people

want around in the streets. This will reduce the community police

and that profile policing that you are asking for. Owen Jones. This

Government says there is no money, but they always manage to find a

bit to shell out for their pet projects like the commissioners.

The fear is about politicising this. I think the danger across the

country, will be Robocop and Judge Dread and under the last Government,

though crime fell, fear went up, because you saw so much of this

rhetoric about law and order. I also think in terms of

accountibility, what will happen is the Government will say, if crime

goes up, it's got nothing to do with us. This is now the

responsibility of the crime commissioners. When actually crime

isn't just a local issue, it's to do things like the economy, which

the Government has to be held accountable for and I think this

could end up letting them off the hook. The man up there. I hear what

Mr Prescott says, but as a serving prison officer if I was to commit a

criminal act and be found guilty I would expect to be sacked and lose

my job. How can that be right to then stand on a moral high ground

to become a commissioner? working for the Murdoch press.

wasn't charged with an offence. main reaction of people is to spend

more money for more policemen. It would be nice, but it's not a

solution to the whole problem of policing, and we have developed

community policing and it's been a good innovation, but it's not

enough. They've developed other things, tar getting the consistent

offenders, but we have gangs and problems with drugs and we have

problems in this county, not as lawless as everybody outside thinks

it is and it is extraordinary that people can ignore the fact we have

a serious discussion with someone from the community about what

priorities we can devote more attention to. I think it will be

What they've said about John Prescott's suitability for the job.

I will defend John, we are getting mellow in our old able. A guy threw

an egg, I would of course turned impeckably and turned the other

cheek. Had they prosecuted John Prescott it's not my view he would

have been given a severe penalty. There we are. It struck most people

as rather human at the time. It was just reaction. Julie Meyer, do you

want to come in on this or not. do think that the way that we

govern our neighbourhoods and communities is going to change and

sorry to be the person that keeps on bringing up digital but it is

changing. I find it incredible to suggest even though it may be the

case that there's more crime because the economy is difficult,

tpwou suggest that somehow that's OK, it's not OK. But the point is

just that there are costs, as the gentleman said, there are costs to

doing this. We have to think through the most efficient way and

the way that society organises itself is changing. OK and if you

are on Twitter, and tweeting tonight, we trend high each week. I

don't know why you laugh at that. Do you know what it means? I do! I

am asked every week if I know what it means and I read it afterwards

and have a look at what people are saying because it's a great

dialogue that goes on in the country about this programme. The

argument goes on all around the country, universities, student

unions, even a place, a cinema in hack me where they sit -- Hackney

where they sit around and debate the programme after. We are at the

centre of public debate. If you are not into Twitter you can text us.

Press the red button if you are watching digitally. Or you can go

to Ceefax. It brings me to a question from Stephen Parker,

please. Will the current NHS changes produce quantifyable

benefits to the public before the next election or will it be looked

back at as electoral suicide? question is not about the impact of

things, it's about the way it will work out, will it produce

quantifyable benefits or looked on as electoral sue? John Prescott --

suicide? It's certainly got a great tkaeupbg tper it doesn't work out

as they're proposing. Those idea logical things that mix between

public and private, we were doing some of that whatever we felt about

it, but the really putting it down to the doctors in the name of the -

every health body is against it. I know Ken was Secretary of State,

will know a lot more about this. But everybody has said it's going

to fail and don't want it and taken away from the essential requirement

of the health service. Indeed it was the Prime Minister who said

it's safe in my hands. Chase clear is doing reorganisation at the same

time changing all the finances. Of course there were problems with the

productivity. I can remember discussions in the cabinet. How do

you measure productivity? How do you measure if somebody is

healthier than the day before? That's one of the difficulties, but

it's one of the values that comes from the National Health Service.

If you get it wrong, I think they will, it will be political suicide.

This is the thing that people feel very strongly about. I am proud to

have belonged to a party that brought it in.

APPLAUSE. All right. I think I am right, you

were the - when you were health Minister you tried to do almost

precisely what Andrew Lansley is trying to do. Over 20 years. We

have had a steady process of reform. That was one interruption when New

Labour first got in. Introducing competition, choice, trying to

change the service, modernise it, that has been going on. Blairites,

one nation Conservatives and orange book liberals have all been driven

to the same conclusion. At the present time when we are still

growing spending on the NHS as to one area which has small real terms

growth. We have an ageing population, rising demand, that

reform has to be pressed on with to its logical conclusion. I think

it's a good idea to put into clinical input, what's been

proposed is the mainstream of where modern health services are going.

What I found extraordinary, I am reminded of 20 years ago, is the

same people are producing the same arguments as they have year in,

year out. They did to Labour. The BMA is quite the most extraordinary

trade union that I have had to to tussle with and I have tussled with

quite a lot and all the time they throw ferocious opposition and...

Doesn't mean they're wrong because they say the same thing over and

over again. They've been wrong since the NHS started and they

don't represent all their members because there are many GPs already

planning the commissions of services under new arrangements

which Andrew Lansley is proposing. The debate is becoming hysterical.

The management of the health service is very complex, most

people don't have the time to actually work out exactly how the

NHS is run and how the money is distributed. It continues to need

reform. It will keep - it's kept on top of demand. We have a very good

health service. It's managed to cope with all the transformations

of the last 20 years. I am afraid it needs more reform to keep keep

doing that. It's reactionary this opposition. What about the

opposition that reported shreu coming from inside cabinet now with

three cabinet Ministers said to - one saying the Bill must be dropped,

another saying Lansley must be replaced and another saying the

reform are doing as much political damage as poll tax. If true my

colleagues are talking nonsense because they haven't tried to

relate to me. Have you heard that from any of them. I have not and

unattributed quotes which some journalist insists he has from a

source, of course he couldn't tell you who it is, but it's in the

Murdoch newspaper... It was Iain Duncan Smith's former Chief of

Staff who said this, Tim Montgomery. Who set himself up as representing

every active Tory in the country on his blasted website, yes, I know. I

don't mind, I know what my view is, I have always supported Andrew's

reforms. I think they're necessary. For us to stop reform - the Welsh

and the Scots have done terrible things. Their performance is much

less because they haven't had reform that is the English have had

over the last 20-odd years and to go back to all the old arguments

about you can't have private companies coming to the health

service because John fairly conceded I think the Blair

Government brought in private companies as providers on a great

scale. You get innovation, you get change that way. A better service

for patient. The woman there the older population -. We are getting

more people into this country as well as the,. Let her speak.

Everybody's getting older. It's not part of it. You are saying that we

are getting an older population. Yeah. OK but we have so many people

coming to this country as well, that is also taking away money from

the NHS. Julie Meyer. I was going to say regardless we could do

nothing with the NHS or change it, the point is that healthcare

globally is changing. In this country companies, private British

enterprise, why not turn it in a trillion pound British healthcare

industry because people will buy it internationally and these companies

here are winning contracts globally. So you would privatise the whole

thing?? I am just supporting the British entrepreneurs who are are

transforming the healthcare industry. Let's be clear the Tories

have absolutely no mandate whatsoever for what they're doing

to our NHS. APPLAUSE. Another Tory Chancellor, Nigel Lawson said the

NHS was the closest thing to a religion. The Tories knew if they

put this to the electorate at the last election they would have been

rejected more decisively than they were. The fact is they said there

would be no top down reorganisations. We are now seeing

cap lifted on private patients and NHS hospitals have to provide not

20% any more but -- 2% any more but up to 49%. I am glad you brought up

New Labour and laid the foundations of this... I made the point. What

New Labour did is it opened the door to what the Tories are doing

now, what Ken will now say is we are taking these reforms. You blame

New Labour. For laying the foundations, and they'll say we are

taking it to its logical conclusions. Unless Labour draws a

line thaupbd past it won't be able to oppose this creeping

privatisation. Susan Kramer. Perhaps I could try and find a

little clarity here. I checked on these numbers yesterday. If you set

aside the GPs who are all in the private sector and always have been,

and you look at the rest of the NHS, about 5% of the services provided

either by a private company or a charity or a social enterprise. I

asked what would happen to that number if we didn't have the Bill

and the answer was it will go up a little bit and slowly and I asked

what happens to the number if we have the Bill? The answer was it

goes up a little bit and slowly. We are talking about something very

much at the margins and now, thank goodness, competition, whether it's

in the private sector or social enterprises or charities, can only

be on the quality of the service they offer. It cannot be on price.

Could I give you... The question Stephen Parker asked was: will

there be quantifyable benefits before the next election or will it

be electoral suicide? When I was an MP I had constant battles with the

local health service management called the Primary Care Trust

because they were an arm of Whitehall and they dictated what

local doctors and nurses and medics could do and I am so in support of

the idea that now it's those doctors, local medical - you know

doctors from the hospital, that's a nurses, mental health specialists

and patients who will form these commissioning groups and the

management will work for them. And that's turning around who's been

making decisions in the health health service. I think finally we

have a chance in our local communities that people who see the

patients - it will be significantly better because so many of my

constituents could not get the services that they need or only got

mediocre services and now doctors have direct input. We have a number

of people with their hands up. You, Sir. I am chief executive of a

charity that works in the health and social care sector and I

totally agree that radical reform of the health sector is required. I

tkpre with Ken's statement that more money is going from central

Government into the health sector. The problem at the moment and

happening over the next few years, is that money is not getting down

grass roots. It's not getting through from the you Primary Care

Trusts probably because they're just in shutdown mode. Do you think

that the whole change, the act itself is going to be politically

damaging, this is where we began? Whether in the long run by the time

of the next election it will be seen as success or damaging to the

coalition? The next 12 months I fear it will be politically

damaging. One more point here. Competition is great but

competition costs money and that's taken money away from the frontline

services because every time you go in and you have got the public

sector competing with the private sector there's tendering involved.

Therefore, we are taking more people away from the frontlines

because they're in these meetings, in presentations, and they're not

doing what we want them to do, which is provide a health service.

Thank you very much. I am going to move on now.

Sarah White. Baroness Warsi suggests religion is

being sidelined, marginalised and downgraded in the public sphere,

isn't this a good thing? APPLAUSE. I don't think she was

referring to the religion of the NHS. Owen Jones. Look, let's be

clear, religion in this country, private religious belief has been

on the decline for a long time. Only one in send of us regularly

attend Church. A poll a few years ago showed less than four out of

ten of us believe in God. But I think to suggest that, I mean, her

suggestion was talking about militant secularism. Secularism is

the state keeping its nose out of private belief. Religion more than

punches its weight in this country. A third of faith schools, a third

of schools are faith schools which is wrong t divides kids up by their

religious beliefs of their parents. We are one of the few countries to

have unelected religious figures in our legislature outside Iran. I do

think there is a serious point which was missed in what she said,

it's when people's prejudice and bigotry is dressed up as secularism

and I am particularly disturbed by the sides of anti-Muslim prejudice

in this country. I grew up with many young Muslims and I never see

the reality of their lives portrayed when Muslims appear in

the press at all it's as radicals, terrorists, extremists. In fact,

there was a survey done a few years ago which showed they took a random

newspaper week and it showed that in that coverage of Muslims nine

out of ten were negative articles. There is a rising tide of anti-

Muslim prejudice which dresses itself up as secularism and that's

a serious point we need to address. APPLAUSE.

Julie Meyer, do you see the Government's, successive

governments as endorsing militant She was talking about things like

not being able to display signs of religion in Government buildings

and people not wearing the cross or allowed to or dress as they chose

in circumstances. You can take it - I believe in the separation of

Church and State. I think faith and belief is an individual choice and

what the media is highlighting this and so on and it should be a level

playing fold. People should be able to do what they want, whether that

is believe or not. The only other comment I would say, as somebody

who has been here for 15 years, but the UK is a rashal culture. If you

go to others, it is much more -- rational culture. If you go to

others, it is much more complicated. We are rational and analytical and

working with entrepreneurs in the broadest sense of the word, they

believe that they are going to make things happen and I think we are

very analytical. You are very hot on entrepreneurs.

digitalisation. John Prescott, religion is being downgraded by

Baroness Warsi. I don't feel strongly about religion, but a lot

do and it's a matter of faith. If they get comfort from that, fair

enough. I found it difficult when Government intervenes to implement

what is a priority for one particular religious belief. In

this, it is Christian belief. Largely coming from our own history

and the Church for example. The Queen is the head of it. What I

think - and it blew up whether you should be able to pray on the

agenda. The courts have ruled it shouldn't be. I think that's right.

Now, will Government intervene to restore that right on official

business to put that there will be prayers. We have it in the House of

Commons and the Lords and we have done it traditionally. I have to

say if you want to ask a question, there are so many people in and you

can't ask a question unless you go in for prayers in the House of

Lords. You need to put your card in the House of Commons. The test will

come, but it will be wrong if the Government decide to say that this

will now be legally right for the local authorities to impose it on

the agenda. That is wrong and that's where the Government

intervene and create this kind of problem. This was Mr Justice

Ouseley, who said you couldn't -- you could have prayers, but you

couldn't have them on the agenda? He was interPletting a local

Government act, who said they didn't have the powers to do it.

It's in the process of being changed. There is a new bill to

give local authorities to do it. It's a rather passing phase and it

will be up to local authorities once we have the new act in place.

On the main question, I don't have any particular religious faith

myself, but I do find militant athiesm rather teedious and it's

having a fashion at the moment. Some otherwise distinguished people

are joining in with it. I respect other people's faith and people get

straight strength and it's beneficial to society as a whole

when people practice their faith properly and we are a tolerant

society. Was Baroness Warsi right to say that religion was being

undergraded? Some people try to. The thing she cites varies. I try

to find the places where you are not allowed to celebrate Christmas.

I think it's normally a large public reaction to reports that

people are banning Christmas. It's quite difficult to find local

authorities. The Daily Mail said the story was a lie. If people take

political correctness to absurd lengths it's rather teedious.

sound except tell about what the co-chairman said? The people of all

faiths add to it and we have a secular Government. When people

become attacking with schools - It's segregation. They are some of

the best schools in the country. It's better that kids mix from a

whole range of backgrounds. I'm not in favour of the anti-religion.

woman up there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible it says

that Jesus himself that power - state and religion should be

spraitd, but last year we couldn't -- separated, but last year we

couldn't escape the Pope when all the roads shut down in London and

Birmingham. It seems kind of ridiculous. It doesn't mean the

Pope can't make a visit. That's the kind - with great respect - but in

my opinion that is slightly overreacting. There are millions of

Kath lings. -- Catholics. I'm not saying he can't visit, but the

accusation that the Church is being downgraded. It seems ridiculous.

is the head of state of course, as John is pointing out. The Woman In

Black, but with the black hair. think that we are very, very lucky

to live in a secular country. If you observe at the moment the US

Republican candidate race, they debate things like abortion and

things like the morality of contraception. We don't waste our

time with that in this country. We have completely separate Church and

State and we don't have to get involved in religious politics. We

should teach about all and we should make no impact on political

life. APPLAUSE

You Sir. I want to say faith does influence the law. The reason that

I can't have a marriage to my male partner and have had to have a

civil partnership, because they wouldn't want to call it marriage

because of faith, so it does interfluence the law and to say it

doesn't is nonsense. Susan Kramer. I was going to say to the last

gentleman, we are working on that and hopefully you will have the

choices in the future. We don't do militant here in the UK and I just

love that about it. That our big battle over religion and secularism

is over where our prayers get set on the agenda before the agenda or

on it. The lady earlier was making the comment about the United States.

You have to look and it's not just the fact that their religious

arguments ormoral issues such as abortion, or contraception, but

it's the way religion shapes tax policy, benefits policy, shaping

foreign policy in the Middle East. It seems to me we have stepped away

from all of that and we found a way where people comfortably live

together, the moments of tension seem to me to be slight and around

small issues. I'm so grateful, because I think the virtue of

tolerance is part of the framework of our community and long may it be

so. Yet in Parliament, Catholics are not allowed to get married?

Probably because nobody ever said, "Could I do it?" My son did and he

happens to be a Catholic. You cannot get married if you are a

Catholic. It is just daft. You can add it to your list of things to

get sorted. When you sort out gay marriage will you also allow

heterosexual partners to have a civil partnership? To be honest I

haven't wrapped my head around that. It's a very, very simple point and

a lot of people who like not to have a marriage, but a civil

partnership. It does seem an issue. You can't do it. It doesn't seem to

me to be a problem. We'll look to you. We have five minutes left and

I get ticked off if we don't finish on time, so we better go to this

question, which is from Michael Bction ullett, in the light --

Bullet, in the light of where David Cameron was today. What difference

would an independent Scotland to make to my life in Nottingham?

you think it would make a difference? Not particularly.

are indifferent? Very much. John Prescott? Well, if it's outside the

UK I believe in the United Kingdom framework, but I tell you what will

come from this, something I've long believed in, having regional

Government, so you should be able to have your own powers to deal and

resources to deal with your problems. That's part of devolution.

I think it's coming. I failed to get it in the north-east when I put

it to them, but devolution in Wales and Scotland took 20 years from the

first referendum to the second one. Distribution of power is important,

because the arguments about the money differences between Scotland

and England as much as between the north, the Midlands and the south.

It needs to be changed. That's what you think Nottingham will get out

of an independent Scotland. Ken Clarke? I think it woe diminish the

role of the English and Scots, with the Welsh and Northern Ireland

people, in that our clout would be reduced. Michael doesn't think so.

When you get into trade and economic and G20 roles and with the

IMF and the World Bank, the fact for all of us to choose to diminish

ourselves for the Scots to become a small European country and for the

English, Welsh and Northern Ireland people to become a much-diminished

one can indirectly have a result to look after everybody in Nottingham.

I see no point in reviving Medieval kingdoms to make sure we are all

smaller on the world stage. It can affect your daily world. Be very

afraid. Owen Jones are you afraid? This is a panel of non-Scots and

it's up to the Scottish people what they do with their future. I do

think actually it would be a shame. I think dividing people up and

nationalism are not good things. I think many of us and we are mixed

communities and most of my family live in Scotland, and I partly grew

up in Falkirk and I think it would be a shame to break up people.

difference would it make to life in Nottingham? You could say if

Cornwall disappeared? I don't think it's good to break people up. We

should unite where we can. woman there? If it does make a

difference, shouldn't we all be allowed to vote, not just Scottish

people? APPLAUSE

Susan Kramer, if it makes a difference, what about that?

think it's self-determination for the Scots and you could argue that

everybody should have a voice, but it seems to me Scotland is far more

impacted than England and Wales and Northern Ireland are impacted.

There seemed to be a lot of applause for that point.

understand that, but I think for those who are living in Scotland

they have to decide. You don't want to force people to be part of a

country if that's not what they want to do. If they want to pursue

their own identity and feel they have to have a country that is

spraised in which to do it, it seems to -- separated in which to

do it, it seems to me OK. We cross the borders without thinking of

them as borders and there is a sort of element of brotherhood. I don't

think we particularly benefited that, so when Ireland separated.

You want Ireland back in too? I don't think you'll get that. I must

stop you. I think it's really ultimately economics. This comes up

- It's the entrepreneurs' problem? With Quebec and Canada. There is an

element of not breaking away. They can't afford to break away. I think

it's a little of nationalism that rears its head all the time and so

on. Do you think it will make a difference? I don't think it will

ever happen. That's another thing. Will it make a difference? To the

average person in Nottingham, I think the economics are such that

England would be better off if Scotland were separate. I think

most people understand that. more point. I think what will

happen is if Scotland go out there and fail the taxpayer might be

asked to bail them out and that would be the effect. You don't want

them to leave because they might fail? Yes. We have no Scots on the

programme and we were just talking about Nottingham so forgive us for

that. We'll come back to this no doubt at another time. We are in

Tunbridge Wells next week. The historian Simon Schama will be one

of the panellists and then in Dewsbury. Go to the website if you