23/02/2012 Question Time

Tonight, we're in Tunbridge Wells and welcome to Question Time.

And with me on the panel here, the communicationss minister, Ed Vaizey,

the Shadow Attorney-General, Emily Thornberry, the deputy leader of

the UK Independence Party, Paul Nuttall. The Daily Telegraph

columnist, Cristina Odone and historian and broadcaster, Simon

Thank you very much. Our first question is from Rachel Sadler,

please. Rachel Sadler. Hi, if David Cameron wants bankers

bonuses to be linked to success, why did he allow RBS, a failing

bank, to be paid bonuses of �785 million? That announced today.

Their losses doubled and their bonuses stayed at �785 million.

They doubled from last year as far as we can tell. What's going on?

Emily Thornberry. I agree with you Rachel. I think it is disgraceful.

I cannot understand why it is, it used to be that you would be given

a contract to do a job and you would be expected to do it well and

you didn't need to have a bonus to make sure you did it well. We have

got ourselves into a spiral on this with bankers expecting ever

increasing bonuses and it seems to have got disconnected from whether

or not they are going to do a good job, even when when they are

failing they are expect to go get a good bonus and they are failing.

You know, small businesses have got �10 billion less in terms of

investment from banks last year. They are failing us all and frankly

it is quite right for Ed Miliband to have stood up a year ago and to

have said, "We have to stop this culture. We have to stop. We have

to start being a little bit more responsible. If we are supposed to

be in it together, then let's be in it all together. Let's make sure we

work work together to improve this country." Why is it we need to

continue feed bankers more and more bonuses. When it comes to the Royal

Bank of Scotland, we own the Royal Bank of Scotland. We bailed out

that bank. We have certain expectations of it and they are

failing us and yet they still want more. Stephen Hester, who runs it,

says big losses... APPLAUSE

Stephen Hester, the boss of RBS, in defending this today, said big

losses are a sign of success, Ed Vaizey.

Well, I don't own a banker's salary... There is a defence that

we can put up for the RBS bonuses announced today because the core

part of the bank, the bank that will be left once some of the

assets have been got rid of did make a profit of something like �5

billion and the people who are getting the bonuses, a lot of them

are the new team that's been brought in that Stephen Hester went

out and got to turn around RBS and as Emily says, we own RBS so we

have an interest in RBS being a successful bank. So they are being

paid a bonus in order to do the job of turning around that bank and

paying back the money that we as taxpayers have given them. I think

it is also important to put these bonuses in context. They are now

about a third of what they were two or three years ago, under the last

Labour Government, the bonus pot was �1.3 billion. It is about �400

billion like for like comparison with RBS. It is only a �200,000

cash bonus and the rest of the bonuses are paid in shares. So if

they are to get this bonus then the share price of RBS will have to do

well and they have to turn around it around. I I agree with what the

public mood is... Do something about it. We pay large salaries to

bankers at a time when we are going through a a period of austerity. We

need to turn RBS around. It It needs to be successful. We should

remember how much the financial services contribute to our economy.

We need to invest in their success. But... Bonuses are coming down.

Coming down? They are coming down. Minister, with all due respect...

You are about to be rude to me. talking about coming down, �23,000,

on average, bonus. �23 ,000 when so many of us - my salary is not much

more than �23,000 and I don't see a a bonus, ever. We are entitle to be

hysterical about bankers bonuses and to wonder when is the apology

going to come? Not only are they earning bonuses and salaries that

are higher than ours, but when is the apology going to be coming for

mis-selling insurance? When are they going to face the fact they

were bam boozeling vulnerable people. People who were elderly,

people who were not financially wise and frankly, you know, I want

to hear, and not only from the Conservatives because this is

something that is not party political, this is an issue that

started with Labour, with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown being in

love with these financial stoosz and nobody -- institutions and

nobody has ever said, "Apologise to the to the public you tried to make

a fool of.". Paul Nuttall. Well, I just don't think these

people learn, do they? It is just obscene. I mean this is a bank

where the loss has doubled this year, but the bonus doubled. It

looks wrong. It is about a bank with �2 million losses this year

and this son the same day when public sector pay has been frozen

across the country. APPLAUSE

And the people whose pay is going to be frozen is your lollipop lady,

your dinner lady, your street cleaner. I would like to see this

�800 million bonus bonus ploughed into the economy because we own own

82% of the Royal Bank of Scotland. APPLAUSE

Just before I I bring Simon Schama in. Ed Vaizey, can I just quote you

something that you said just a month ago. "what people are

objecting to are people getting paid large bonuses when they are

only in business because the taxpayer has bailed them out or

supported them." It is the opposite of what you are saying. You were

agreeing with Cristina Odone. have got to take a pragmatic and

realistic attitude. A lot of people getting the bonuses are new

recruits. We own 83% of this bank. We have to invest in its success

and it is turning around. The core part of the bank did make a profit.

The bonuses that they are getting are bonuses in shares so if they

are going to get the money, they will get it if RBS is successful.

The Prime Minister says it makes people's blood boil and he is the

Prime Minister and why can't you stop it happening? We own the bank.

I will keep repeating myself. The bonuses are lower. The bonuses are

linked to the share price so... share price has fallen 40% in a

year. The we are rewarding the new team to turn around RBS.

Simon Schama. The recruitment, argument, Ed,

might be fine. Is it so extraordinary to say we will give

awe bonus when you have a -- you a bonus when you have a successful

business here. Not when when you have doubled your losses. It

reminds me of a moment in the Marx Brothers when they say, "We are a

shocking band. We will charge you $10 when we perform and we will

charge you you $20 not to perform! "two points, one, in a time of

recession and hardship, issues of equity are not sentimental. They go

right to the heart of the trust people have, not just in their

politicians, but also in a sense of public institutions and RBS, as has

been said, is now owned by us. But I would say also, I want the

apology too. To call a moral atrocity is right, but there are

structural things that Cristina alluded to. The real horror that

went on for a number of years in the United States where I live as

well as here, the things banks got up to in terms of reckless trading

which had a dire knock on effect. The insidious connections between,

they are not always insidious, between investment banking and

retail banking. It is those institutional things that we have

to sort out. Can you explain why the Government

can't do anything about this given that it owned 80% or so by the

taxpayer? About the the bonus situation? Yes.

The Prime Minister tells us it is not in response to this, but he

says, "We shouldn't be snobbish about business." Nobody, I think,

very much in this room feels that actually to be aghast at what the

bonuses are, represents a direct dagger in the throat of capitalism.

Capitalism would be healthier without these acts of monstrosity.

APPLAUSE We have acted on the bonuses which

is why we we kept the cash bonus down to �200,000 and the rest is in

shares. They will still get the money. The

shares are 40% down on this time last year.

They are at their lowest point. They are 28.5 pence today.

It is hard to take you seriesly saying you you understand the

public's sentiment when you have proceeded that by a lengthy

statement. And your policy is taking money out of people's

pockets and in public sector jobs. Can I say something about that? If

you look at the way way teachers salaries increased from 1979, if

you look at the salary of the head of Barclays, his salary has gone up

500 times. You have to start saying enough is enough. This is not right.

We heard from a guy from Greggs and he said it is greed at the top of

big business which is anti- capitalism and we have to start

saying that and we have to start saying there is a bottom line.

There is something wrong about this and we need to take a new way.

APPLAUSE The woman there and then I will

come to you, sir, over there. I think the public and the press

need to be careful about how they vilify bankers especially at RBS

because essentially it is still a bank, it is competing against other

British banks, it has to be come petive and it has to retain its

staff and if it doesn't do those things, it will fail and then we're

left out of pocket. You think they would end up with

the worst bankers? If somebody can get a better deal at Barclays, they

will work at Barclays. The gentleman over there.

Yes, following on from that, we paid our �45 billion to buy this

bank and bail it out and all I have heard from the panel so far is,

"Nothing has changed." In the last four or five years, there is

hundreds of thousands of people who work in the City of London which is

our biggest export, 25% of our income, that pay for public sector

and prisons and nurses, come from the City of London, the Bank of

Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, I beg your pardon is one

little bank and thousands of people lost their jobs and I want my money

back. We all want our money back. If you lose a footballer -- if you

use a football analogy. If a Scottish Scottish football club is

in trouble and if we bail out Manchester United and we decided

that once we got hold of it and they are not doing what they are

doing, we will sack Sir Alex Ferguson and get rid of Rooney and

get rid of Giggs. It is a Sunday league team and I want my money

back. Are you saying that the Government

is on course with doing this with RBS? Do you think they will take

the measures right? Stephen Hester had a difficult job.

Briefly. He sacked a lot of people. He a very difficult job. A very

complicated world in which he lives and he is trying to save our �45

billion. OK and the man in the white shirt

there. The only reason the banks are still

in business which is negative real interest rates which are there to

support the housing market. If you want bankers bonuses to adjust, you

want lower house prices. Given that it was Labour that

bailed outlbs, why why couldn't you put a clause in the agreement not

to pay bonuses until they made a profit.

Given that we are the shareholders and we have a place there, we can

say to the remuneration committee, no. That's why when Cameron says,

"We have got to have responsible capitalism." when it comes to it,

he blinks. He has the power to do something about the banks we

nationalised and yet he is wimping out.

It is Labour Party policy not to pay any bonus to any employee of

RBS. No, that wouldn't be fair. It is

the way you were talking. It sounded like that was your policy.

These bonuses, many of the headline bonuses are obscene and we have to

stop them. We have top stop them. You have played to the gallery, but

you would pay the bonuses. . No. No. No. No. That's not fair.

Hester gets �1.1 million as a salary. That seems to be quite a

good salary actually. Mervin King gets less than a third of that.

Let's be real about this. It seems to me that you have to call a spade

a spade. It is wrong for someone who has �1.1 million as a salary to

get a bonus when that is public The last point there, Cristina

Odone, then we have to move on. this is supposed to be about can

tallism, why has Royal Bank of Scotland failed to increase lending

to small businesses? That's what we thought we were putting our �45

billion in for. Nothing's happened. In fact, they've, you know, it

hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up. That's another issue.

Let's move on. A question now from Will Pearce, please?

Is it time for the UK to lead the international community in

providing military assistance for the Syrian freedom fighters?

Is it time to provide military assistance for the freedom

fighters? Cristina Odone? It's so hard because it's been brought home

to me because somebody I knew was killed yesterday in Syria. Once

that happens, you feel much more empassioned. Marie Colvin? Marie

Colvin. But I would argue that there's another way of doing it

which is the John McCain way. What he suggested, which seems to me a

very sensible solution is, arm the freedom fighters, don't go in there,

don't play another Iraq because we don't have the UN Resolution thanks

to China and Russia and India as well, South Africa. They just

refuse to come in on it. So I would argue, let's arm then, let's give

them the weapons. One of their leaders said, if we could have

better weapons, we would be able to get rid of the regime, Assad's

regime within ten days. Now, I don't know whether that's true but

it certainly seems to be a lot better than getting our soldiers in

there. Simon Schama? Well, first thing's first. This is a horrifying

catastrophe actually and I'm going to come on in just a second to what

I think might be tried which isn't quite the same suggestion as

Cristina's. But first of all actually, the issue should go back

to the Security Council. I know it suffered the veto of Russia and

China and ran into opposition as well from Brazil, from South Africa

and from India... India, yes. All those people who prevented an Arab

League resolution which is by no means a Draconian kind of move from

happening ought to be called Ouse as accomplices to massacre. It's

time actually to make a very big moral noise about something which

the just -- which is just horrifying going on. I don't think

arming the freedom fighters - we are getting in default mode to not

replay Iraq but replay Libya all the time - if we had an

international peacekeeping force in Bosnia under somewhat the same

circumstances, we must find a way to have international peacekeeping

to force to come between the antagonists on either side. I don't

think we should take what happened at the Security Council as ruling

this out, I don't see any other way. The woman there? Sorry, it just

seems to me that a country's physical assets like oil and things

has a huge bearing on how fast the international community actually

steps in. Libya - stepped in, armed the fighters, provided air cover,

straightaway. There's oil there. Kuwait, Iraq, very quickly,

straight in. As soon as you've got a country where we don't have any

assets to start worrying about, it's softly-softly, let's take

this... Now, I'm not advocating that we should go in guns blazing,

but I do think that it seems very unfair that a country's physicals a

is thes -- assets are such a huge part of how fast we act. Ed Vaizey,

do you want to answer that point? don't think it's a question of

whether or not Syria has oil as to why there hasn't been international

action. There has been a lot of international action in terms of

sanctions against Syria and the friends of Syria are meeting

tomorrow with William Hague, our Foreign Secretary, taking part in

that meeting. I think leading that meeting in terms of British action

on Syria. The difficulties we have are first of all what Simon alluded

to, the UN, Russia and China vetoing a UN Security Council

resolution. We had a UN Security Council resolution as far as Libya

was concerned but there are other complications. The opposition in

Syria is more fragmented. McCain, the former presidential

candidate, was saying there are ways to get weapons to people

who're fighting against this kind of oppression. He meant by that

presumably, you don't need to have the UN, there are ways of getting

the arms in... That was the second point I was about to make, the

opposition in Syria is more fragmented, it was much clearer who

the opposition was in Libya and where they were so they could be

armed so it was more difficult to do that in Syria. Those are the

complications but we are all disgusted by what is going on in

Syria, it's appalling. The Assad regime is finished I think. I

cannot see how it can survive and I can understand why people want

action. Cristina said I didn't know Marie Colvin but her death was

tragic and it reminds us as well I think in the few months that we've

been disparaging journalism that there are many, many brave

journalist who is go to extraordinary lengths to bring

stories to us both here and across the world.

APPLAUSE She was indeed a panellist on

Question Time and very good too. You say it's difficult. Does that

mean it's impossible? I don't think it's impossible and I don't want to

advocate that we arm the Syrian opposition at the moment. I think

that William Hague is working with the international community to do

what we can. I think that the Assad regime must realise they've come to

the end of the road. We must work to get Russia and China on board in

terms of taking action against Syria and we must do what we can in

terms of humanitarian support and sanctions against its regime. But

there is no lack of action, but there are obstacles in the way.

The woman at the very back? I agree with Ed, it's a very dangerous path

to go down, funding foreign insurgents we know so little about

and that are so fragmented. We could easily be supplying weapons

to our future enemy for all we know. You Sir, yes? I agree with the lady

in front. The reluctance for us to get involved in the war or this

uprising is predominantly revolving around oil, that's come from the

words of the Syrian freedom fighters themselves. Do you think

if there was oil there... I think the swing would change and there

are ways you can lend assistance with precision strikes and perhaps

covert operations. We have to lend some assistance. Paul Nuttall, do

you agree with that? I think we should offer our condolences to the

family of Marie Colvin first. That's the first thing we should

say. APPLAUSE

I think dealing with Syria will be very difficult for two reasons.

Firstly, we have the obstacle of Russia and China and the UN

Security Council, but let's not forget, Assad has a standing

military of 250,000 highly trained soldiers. We can't go round being

the world's policemen all the time, we've got defence cuts at the

moment. We could have a problem in the Falklands which is coming up

which I would argue for British interest is more important.

APPLAUSE However, there is a serious problem

out there. But I think we'd better be careful about what comes next

because look, is Libya necessarily a better place now than it was

under Gaddafi? We have human rights abuses across-the-board. Is Iraq

necessarily a safer place? Is Egypt with the Christian community being

persecuted? We should think very hard before embarking on any action.

I for one don't want to see one drop of British soldiers' blood

spilt in Syria. APPLAUSE

I agree with that and I would like to ask Emily Thornberry, what role

can the International Criminal Court play in this situation

because we have not heard much from them in the past few weeks? Emily

Thornberry? I think that Assad is a weak leader. I think he talks a

good talk, he talks about liberal values, he talks about bringing

democracy to Syria. He's let Syria down and his father was responsible

for the murder of 20,000 people. He looks like he's going to be

responsible for the same thing. He must go, he must go and it seems to

me that we have to have a ceasefire, we have to have humanitarian aid

going in and then we need talks. When we talk about arming the

rebellion, the fact is, we don't even know who rebellion is, you

know, we don't know who the different factions are. We have

ancient Christian religions there, we have Sunnis, Shias, I mean, I've

been to Syria and it's the most unique society and finely balanced.

If you look at the uprising, actually not everyone is in an

uprising because they're scared about what the alternative may be.

So please, there are even rumours that the bombings were the

responsibility of Al-Qaeda. You know, they have enough weapons,

that's not the point. What we need to do is not simply think we can

get rid of Assad and everything will be fine, everything will not

be fine, we have to build enough... Who has enough weapons? The

opposition? Yes and such people as we hear from, they say it's not a

matter of having enough weapons and indeed there is not a call from the

opposition to say please West come in and bomb. First of all Yes there

is. They are dangerous as Goliath, they've said we need more weapons.

Depends who you are listening to. There are many different voices and

you can hear Syrians on TV, representatives of the Syrian

community saying different things. They are all against Assad? Yes,

but then the question is, you say all right so they are all against

Assad so get rid of him and then what. We can't simply say there are

people being murdered and it's wrong, let's get rid of Assad and

think everything will be OK because it won't. I'm not convinced, Emily.

I think that you are right, there's more than one group that is

standing up to Assad, but anybody but Assad should get our help if we

don't want to spill British or European blood or whatever, OK,

let's go in and give them arms. They have several times, just as

they did in Libya, asked us to go in. Nobody in Iraq did it. Look at

what happened in Mogadishu where everyone had so many arms, you

could go to a market and find a basket of rice and for the same

price you could find a basket of bullets, you know. You leave these

arms and then what happens, as the decades go on, you undermine a

society, allow violence to get in and arm tonk the teeth then what do

you do, who is ever going to hand the weapons back -- armed to the

teeth. Do you want the last word? It's not undermining, it's

supporting and we know who is evil there. Do we know who is evil and

who is not. This is the problem, we've made this mistake before in

Libya. We have armed the rebels and they overthrew Gaddafi. There are

140 tribes in Libya with scores to settle armed to the teeth. There

are human rights abuses across-the- board and if we are not careful, we

could possibly end up with Islamic fundamentalist states 250 miles off

the coast of Sicily. Simon Schama? It's not all a matter of they are

all as bad as each other, Paul. It's not that complicated. Dedon't

know who these people are. We do know who the Free Syrian Army are.

I don't think it's in anyone's interests, least of all the Syrian

people, I know it's shocking to presume to speak to them, but we

know that the Army in Homs is aiming tank and mortar and rocket

fire at civilian centres. That is a not complicated utter horror, so

it's incumbent on the international community to prevent women and

hospitals and children and schools being massacred in cold blood.

I pick you up on one point... APPLAUSE

Emily Thornberry made the point these are all different groups and

we don't know who they are and you said we do know who the Free Syrian

Army is. In the sense that you would be prepared to arm them?

I'm not... What do you mean by you know who they are? Well, they are

Sunni, it's a Sunni uprising, the fact that Al-Qaeda is Sunni. It's

certainly not Alawite or Shia. what are the Christians going to

make of that? That's why I'm not proposing to intensify a Civil War.

Let's move on. The man up there in the second row from the back and

then we'll take another question. The West has a long tradition of

interventions like this all over the world, but especially in that

region and our recent history's been scarred by a self-interested

intervention in Iraq with no exit strategy. I'm pleased we seem to be

learning the lesson from that and I would be very worried about a move

to intervene just for the sake of it, particularly because, the

feeling that if we intervened in a country that had oil, that is more

about making us feel better about ourselves. If you want to join in

the debate, our Twitter ID is on We won't be able to say Ceefax

anywhere. Where I live, you can't get television if you don't have

analogue, you can't get digital. really? That's not for now.

We will be a few minutes! I mustn't say that thing, I will

get the sack. I would like to know what you think,

do unpaid work placements for unemployed 16 to 24-year-olds help

them into the workplace or are they a modern form of slavery.

These are the people who have been working for Tesco's and other

companies on no pay for eight weeks and they get their benefits. Is it

slavery or what is it. Paul Nuttall. Well, the first I would like to say

about this is actually it is voluntary. So it is not slavery and

hundreds of kids as a result of this have got jobs. 22% youth

unemployment in this country. We are bringing up a generation of

kids who actually don't know what it means to go out to work and

probably stay at home and play on their Xbox all day. It is a

fantastic opportunity. I used to work with youth unemployment and I

think it is an opportunity for them to to punctual, to be reliable and

go on into full-time employment. We have got to get our own workforce

working working again. The hotel I'm staying in London at the moment,

the staff, one was Congolese and one was Estonian. We need to get

our young people into work and this is a step in that direction.

Ed Vaizey is this volume voluntary? There seems some doubt about it

with different ministers saying different things? Give us the

quotes. I will square the circle. I think it is voluntary.

Iain Duncan Smith writing in The Daily Mail said we can require

claimants to undertake a short period of compulsory work if we

believe they are not pursuing employment. Is that what this

scheme is or not? That's not a scheme I heard of. Iain Duncan

Smith. It is a voluntary scheme. If you are on Jobseeker's Allowance,

you can sit down with your adviser and be offered a period of work

experience where you will be paid Jobseeker's Allowance plus your

expenses and that can be for up to eight weeks and that's voluntary

and you can say no. What's the Community Action

Programme? The second thing about that programme which has been put

about in the press which after a week you decide it is not for you,

and you leave, you will have your Jobseeker's Allowance docked and

that is seen as a bad thing, but again, I think it is important to

get across the fact that that docking is discretionary. So what

will happen is you will sit down with your adviser and if it is felt

that you effectively, the the employer who spent a lot of time

and investment getting ready to have you on the scheme that you

somehow walked off the job without a care in the world then the

adviser has the potential to sanction you for that.

You are saying this is is voluntary, all this? Yes.

What's the Community Action Programme? I don't know.

You don't know? I have come to talk about this voluntary programme.

I will sweet later about what that I can't believe that you don't know

what it is. These are the things at the heart of the debate? Absolutely,

it is important that he get people on unemployment benefit back to

work and that's why we need to give them work experience and that's why

I support this programme. Emily Thornberry.

It is funny to see Ed Vaizey doing his Boris Johnson impersonation!

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

Work experience should be about getting a job. It should be the

pathway to getting a job. Either you do work experience with an

employer who is impressed with you and offers you a job or you have

something on your CV and you have the experience to help you get a

job and the the problem with work experience at the moment is there

aren't jobs. There aren't any jobs and we have a Government that has

no policy when it comes to building jobs and going for growth. They

have no policy in relation to it. They have got this policy which Val

Chris raises as a question. If you have ten Jobseekers and one job, no

matter how well motivated they are and no matter how much they want

that job, there is one job. Is it a form of slavery which is

the question or not? I think if you have large successful companies,

having a rolling programme of youngsters who they don't need to

pay, but the State pays for them instead on two monthly bursts then

it begins not to look like work experience, it begins to look like

something distasteful. And look like or is? I think that

I'm pleased to see that employers such as Tesco's have changed their

policy as a result and are prepared to pay pay these youngsters and

look at them as to whether or not they should get a job at the end of

it because frankly if a company has hundreds of places for people who

might do two months unpaid work, the question has to arise, is there

work in that company or they taking advantage of the situation? You

know what, this comes down to, is whether or not people are prepared

to trust this particular Government when they introduce the initiatives.

This Government is the one that was against a minimum wage. This

Government is the one that wants to take away workers rights and wants

it to be easer to sack people and in the end, do you trust it or not?

The woman in lilac. The ditch thing used to be to get into a company.

Once you got your foot in the door, you worked your way up and it might

have been a greasy pole, but somehow you managed to do that and

anything that's going to help young people to get that first step which

is the difficult bit when they don't already have any experience,

the situation may not be ideal, but at least it could be a start start

into getting into the workplace. APPLAUSE

Absolutely. Employers keep saying, "We'll take just about anybody. We

will look at anybody. We will interview anybody. Except for

somebody who has no experience on their CV." And what was this scheme,

it was tried and tested in the States, it works elsewhere, was

brilliant. Why was it brilliant? It got young people out into the

workplace, not in a charity, in a nice, cosy thing. No, in big

companies so if that's what they want, if what they want is a taste

of professional life, they were getting it. This was the real thing.

This was Tesco. This was Boots, this was Asda and what was

brilliant was, they were learning habits. They were learning skills.

Those skills that the middle-class people who go on fair work

campaigns are able to teach their children at meal times. They can

teach their children not to wear hoodies or chew gum during an

interview. These skills are really, really important for young people

to learn and these soft skills are what they could have picked up on

the floor, on the shop floor at Asda or Tesco's.

Why has Sainsbury's pulled out? Why have Matalan pulled out? Because.

Because of the small lobby that got one creature to say her Human

Rights were infridged because for three weeks she was working at her

local Poundland for nothing. For nothing, but half of the 40,000

young people who have gone on the scheme have been hired by the

places where they were working. That's a chance. That's at least a

chance to get a job. APPLAUSE

The gentleman on the end said there were... Paul Nuttall. Thank you

very much. Said there were four non UK people in the hotel where you

were saying. Why do you think there were no English people in those

positions? In my experience they work harder. They work longer hours.

They want to be there and they are more grateful for it and across my

business interests, I employ over 200 people.

You are right. This is why this scheme is important. We seem to

have lost this work ethic this this this country and this is an

opportunity to instil the work ethic. It boils down to this in the

the end - could we really want our youngsters out learning skills,

being punctual, going into work, becoming responsible or do we want

them sitting at home doing nothing? I think it is clear what the answer

is and that's why businesses, right across this country, are taking on

Eastern Europeans and not our own and that has to to stop and this

scheme is a step in the right direction.

The reverse is true to answer this lady's question.

Cristina Odone. Thank you so much. I struggle. I have taken on four

graduates without any experience at all... You are very unusual.

They have gone into middle management and they are doing a

fabulous job. Within twelve weeks they are doing classic middle

management that I would probably pay somebody twice as much to do.

The woman in the centre and then Simon Schama.

The original question uses the phrase "slavery" it is worth

remembering whether we like it or not, it is easy for the young

people who I teach in Tunbridge Wells who will have at least one if

not two parents in work to gain work experience which they can have

on their CV to get a job. The sort of young people I taught on the

Maidstone council estates had no concept of work and a scheme like

this gives them that valuable work experience so we get the people

from advantaged backgrounds off the street corners and into some form

of workplace. It may not be a workplace they love like Poundland.

What do you make of the companies that have withdrawn from the scheme

under pressure then? It is sad they have withdrawn under media pressure

and under public response to as Cristina said, this one articulate

young lady who managed to get a lot of media coverage about her case.

Simon Schama. I am singing from the same sheet

and I want to agree with the lady in the handsome deep rose coloured

suit over there! We can sound a bit Victorian about actually instilling

the work ethic, nothing to apologise for that really, but all

I really want to add is we're facing right across the developed

world and probably beyond the developed world, this is true of

the United States, a lost generation at its most tragically

awful in Greece for example, where they have a depression rather than

a recession and it is absolutely, that's why, I think, we're singing

from the same sheet. It is so - nothing is more demoralalising

really than feeling you have no part to play in the larger working

society. So A, it is to be welcomed. I think we are singing from the

same hymn sheet, but it is worth picking up on the point that Emily

made earlier. I don't think, we shouldn't be sceptical about

business. We shouldn't automatically say because business

want to participate that they are seeking to exploit people. We

should celebrate the fact that business is prepared to come to the

table and help with this work experience scheme and support them

in doing so rather than vilify them and accuse them of engaging in

modern day slavery. We would like this scheme to be

rolled out to small business as well. Let's Get our young people in

work. The man in the white shirt.

Surely the ultimate test this is success. Figures today said it is

50% successful. That's got to be a good scheme.

You mentioned Greece. George Harris has a question on Greece and we

will fit in a question after that as well. George Harris, please.

Isn't bailing out Greece a measure to delay the inevitable?

inevitable being? In your view? Well, that it is

going to go crashing down. They won be able to afford -- won't be able

to afford to repay their debts. And pull out of the euro and all

that? Exactly. Simon Schama. Well, we, you know,

you are speaking on behalf of the eurozone, whether the eurozone

should do what has to be done. I think the first thing that has to

be said really is, not just that Greece is in a deprrks, but --

depression, but a recession. We are seeing for the first time in a long

time, the complete unravelling of the social contract in a country.

Whoever was responsible really for cooking the books in such a way as

to provoke the wrath of Angela Merkel and the northern Europeans

and the books were indeed, cooked, helped I may say and I'm not

attacking heaven for bid a bank, helped by Gold by Goldman Sachs, it

was not the people on the receiving end of this horrific punishment

with enormous unemployment and the real problem, it seems to me, is

that the ferocious medicine being required to the Greeks is exactly

this degree of punishing austerity, is the least likely policy to

restore, not just Greece to economic growth, but repair the

social fabrics, so you do have a working society.

So your suggestion would be what? I'm saying only half the problem is

being addressed. It is really like Mr Potter in It's A Wonderful Life,

you are failing people who are not responsible for this, for the cost

of the bail out, but what really needs, is some sort of European

equivalent to the Marshal Plan, I am not saying throw money and

charity at the problem, but there has to be something other than cut,

cut, cut, cut if this society isn't going to disintegrate completely

and that will lead to revolution or dictatorship. My historians

nostrils can smell that kind of Paul Nuttall, you are probably not

a great fan of the eurozone, but what is your view about bailing out

of Greece? I think it's just a sticking plaster and I predict

we'll be back here again in six months' time. Greece will fully

default. It's inevitable. The real problem here is there's a real

human element to it. What is going on in Greece is an absolute

disaster. We've got 50% youth unemployment, 25% increases in

homelessness, suicides are going through the roof. 22% cut in the

minimum wage. The people are out on the streets, the people are angry,

you've had a democratically elected Prime Minister removed by the

European Commission and they've put a eurocrat, unelected eurocrat, in

his place. It's not on. The people are out. Imagine in this country,

for example, in our democratly elected Prime Minister was removed

and heaven forbid, we were given Peter Mandelson or even Neil

Kinnock, you would be out on the street and unfortunately at the

moment in Greece, I fear within I say this, but I genuinely feel that

the cradle of civilisation Greece is heading towards revolution. What

Greece needs to do is to come out of the eurozone all together, leave

the euro, go back on to the drachma, devalue, set her own exchange rates

and get her exports going, because if we were good Europeans, that's

what we'd want and that's what we'd APPLAUSE

The woman in the fourth row there? Why does it have to get to this

stage when they are almost at rock bottom before we suddenly put our

hands in the air and say, step in, we need to be doing something. It's

the same with anything in this life, we step in when it's at breaking

point. Why can't we have things in place whereby we can see the layers

slowly being eroded so we can step in before we have this catastrophic

event? Because it was never going to work anyway, it was impossible.

Ed Vaizey? I hope the bail out works and so does everyone else. We

all have an interest in our own economy and the eurozone succeeding

and we want Greece to get back on to the road to recovery. We have

been in the past with Ireland looking over the precipice and

Ireland I think seems to be coming back, so I do hope that it works.

You can't predict the future but this bail out's been long

negotiated. I wouldn't agree with the sentiments that Greece is on

the point of rev lues, but Simon has said what he has to say --

revolution. I don't think we want to ratchet it up too much but I

understand the frustration, particularly the people in Greece

must feel. That's why I was delighted that John Major kept us

out of the euro and that is why I was delighted we remained out of

the euro in the last Government and will continue to remain out of it

fundamentally, the euro was sold as an economic project to increase

free trade in Europe which is something I'm very much in favour

of, increasing free trade in Europe. The reason we always opposed it in

the Conservative Party was because it was always a political project

and if you have a currency union you give up your sovereignty which

is what we are seeing now. I'm delighted we are not in the euro

but I absolutely wish this bail out the best of luck and I think it

will and hope it will work because it's in all of our interests for

the euro to survive and for the European economys to recover.

APPLAUSE You, Sir? Just to come back on some

of the points made. We they knead to go back to basics, come out of

euro and there needs to be a mentality change from start to

finish, just everyone... You could almost wish if everyone in the

whole country could change their mentality a bit and just change the

ethics, whether they need to change their work ethic a little bit but

just to start a game and make things better. And you, Sir? As I

understand it, one of the conditions for the bail out is that

they have to lose 150,000 public sector workers within three years.

That's equivalent to saying goodbye to 80,000 in this country. Imagine

what that would do. They have no way out, they are not allowed to

borrow from anywhere else, you've got a puppet Prime Minister in

there, Greece was given a golden hello to get into the European

Union when they were assessed and they should be given a golden

goodbye and eased out to the pain so that they can leave the European

Union. This is more about saving the European Union, not saving

Greece. I think you are speaking a lot of

good sense. I mean, there's very little I disagree with what you

have just said. The reason we stayed out of the euro when Labour

was in charge is because do you remember the convergence criteria,

that wasn't just Gordon saying no, it was that our economy's not like

Greece or Spain, Italy, no we were not similar enough but if you sign

up to the euro, then it surely means that we are all in it

together and we'll stand together and having signed up to the euro,

it's incumbent I think upon countries such as Germany to make

sure that if they are serious about it, then they have to work. The

difficulty is, it seems to me, is that again, just like our

Government, the Germans and French have again had this idea that

austerity is everything and yet it's not everything. You can't just

keep cutting back on money and expect the economy to grow. It

seems to me that the austerity programme which they are enforcing

on the Greeks will not work. I fear. It shrank 7% last year. But going

back to Simon's historian nostrils, I think you are right because I

think the humiliation that the Greeks are being asked to put up

with by the European Union is extraordinary. It wasn't just

France and Germany, but there was the Dutch minister who said, what

we'd like to do is because we don't trust you to carry out your

financial and economic mess, we are going to impose somebody from the

EU in your democracy and he's going to be there in a kind of permanent

over senior position. That is extraordinary. That in a and a

puppet Prime Minister and unemployment and homeless, you

think what more humiliation can one country suffer? Let's not forget,

it's not just Greece. They've done the same in Italy, replaced the

democratically elected leader with another eurocrat. Anybody who

replaced Berlusconi is a good one. Exactly.

APPLAUSE. It's horses for courses and there's a perception that a

good job is being done in Italy. He's unelected. It doesn't matter.

Berlusconi was a trauma for us, OK. I speak as a half Italian, he was

the worst thing we've ever had. Please, you know...

Let's not go into it too much. It will be next, Italy, on the line.

God forbid. The last question from Kimberley Carey, please? In light

of the recent arrests of journalists at the Sun, is it a

good idea to launch the Sun on Sunday?

Ed Vaizey, you are in charge of all this sort of thing, is it a good

idea? Well, I think... More Murdoch I think Rupert Murdoch is perfectly

entitled to launch the Sun on Sunday and it's worth remembering

that despite the traumas that those journalists have put us through and

they are being arrested, that millions of people still buy The

Sun every day and it's very interesting that after the closure

of the News of the World, I think about half the News of the World's

readers have stopped buying a Sunday newspaper at all. So I want

to see a free and successful press in this country. I hope the Leveson

Inquiry will get to the bottom of everything that's happened in the

past and I hope it's very much of the past. I think if Rupert Murdoch

wants to launch the Sun on Sunday and if people want to buy it then

it will be a success and if people don't want to buy it, then it won't

be. Is Leveson a danger like Michael Gove seems to think, he

talks about freedom of expression emanating around that? He was

saying he doesn't want Leveson to instil a freedom of press. I think

the Leveson Inquiry is a huge opportunity for the press. I think

it provides a breathing space, a buffer between politicians and the

press and it gives the press an opportunity to put forward

proposals to put its own house in order to come up with a Morrow bust

regime for I hope self-regulation of the press. Paul Nuttall, what do

you think of the Sun on Sunday being launched? I'll just say good

luck to him in that sense because frankly there are a million less

people buying a newspaper on a Sunday and I think it's important

that people keep up-to-date with current affairs and buy newspapers.

However, as a Liverpudlian and a survivor of the Hillsborough

disaster, I don't buy the Sun six days a week and I certainly won't

be buying the Sun on the seventh day of the week either.

APPLAUSE Do you know, everybody, there are

very few things in this world I don't give a toss about and this is

one of them. Good, thank you. Cristina Odone?

APPLAUSE Simon Schama, shame on you! You

should care because the more newspapers we have of all qualities,

the better. Information is the oxygen of democracy and I think a

historian said that! And we want it. One of the things, you know, when I

think Rupert Murdoch, my knee-jerk reaction is, hacking scandals,

Cherie Blair now, lot of celebrities complaining, what what

what, but News Corp is also the umbrella group for some very

impressive journalism -- blah blah blah. We are talking about Marie

Colvin, she's one of them. And what it reminds us of is what good

journalists can do, which is expose MPs' expenses as The Telegraph did,

which is expose the human rights abuses that are happening in Syria

eeven if it costs some of our best journalists' lives which is expose

corruption at every level from Westminster to wag mama and I think

that that is one of the... It's not about journalists but the Sun and

the Murdoch press. The man with spectacles on? I think Simon's

pretty much put that subject to bed actually with his answer. Are you

going to be helpful or not? I was going to say it wasn't the answer

to a new Sunday paper and the issues that arose from the Leveson

Inquiry actually to regulate the sector a little better, especially

now with all the financial regulations that have been imposed.

Do you think he shouldn't be allowed to publish a newspaper at

all... I'm not saying that, things like making sure that instances

like phone tapping don't occur again. That's a criminal offence so

presumably you can stop that happening? But if you have

regulation in the sector, those sort of things can be policed a

little better. Very briefly you Sir? When does the

information turn into propaganda? Murdoch's got such a grab hold on

British print at the moment and adding another Sunday paper is just

expanding his grip on information that's being released. A 30 second

answer Emily? The problem with regular lace is who is going to be

the regulator and who will regulate the regulators and presumably you

don't want the politicians to regulate the regulators, it would

be a bad idea. The next thing is this, it's audacious and arrogant

to launch a paper against the background of what's happened, but

it's Rupert Murdoch. APPLAUSE

We have to stop there because our time's up. Sorry, I would like to

bring you in, but I can't. Next week, we are in Dewsbury, we are

going to have the professional footballer Clark Carlisle, we are

having another historian on next week, guess who that would be?

David Starkey. The week of that we are in Guildford. If you want to

come to either of those programmes, you can go to the website. You can