10/05/2012 Question Time

Last week, the voters spoke. Yesterday, the Queen. Tonight, our

audience here in Oldham. We can to Question Time. -- welcome to

Question Time. On our panel, the Caroline Spelman, Chris Bryant,

Lord Oakeshott and Daily Telegraph's chief political

commentator Peter Oborne and the Professor of Classics at Cambridge

university, Mary Beard. Thank you very much indeed. Straight to our

first question then from Peter Hayes, please? Why can't public

sector workers accept that if they are going to live longer, they are

going to have to renegotiate their pensions.

Chris Bryant? I think most of them do accept that in the broad we are

all, if we are going to live longer, we have got to make sure there is

enough money to pay for the pension pot that we all hope we are going

to be drawing out of. What I think has been unfair in the last few

months is the way the Government's approached the negotiations. They

suddenly decided they were going to add 3% to everybody in the public

sector, the amount they have to pay every month for their pension, they

decided women were going to have to work longer, quite soon, and that a

lot of people would fall between two stools in the way they organise

the pension system. In general, for a lot of public sector workers, it

feels as if it wasn't teachers and school cleaners and dinner ladies

who provided the economic problems of 2008 and what followed, but it's

them who seem to be bearing the brunt of what the Government is

doing and that's the unfairness. APPLAUSE

Peter Oborne? I so agree with the questioner and what he's getting at

there. There is been an amazing change in the way we all live in

the last 20 or 30 years. Instead of looking forward to dying at 70,

it's 90. That's wonderful but at the same time, we have to accept

that we are going to have to work quite a bit longer, particularly

since we live in a very competitive world economy and if we are going

to let our finances work and we are not going to go bankrupt as a

nation, we are going to have to enlarge our pensions. I do think

that the public sector workers unions, who in many ways, it's

perfectly true, stand up for the most vulnerable in society, but

like everybody else, are going to have to adjust to the new economic

environment. I don't think it's a particularly bad thing in a way,

working to 70 or beyond for many people will be quite enriching.

many of these people, they are not paid well. Their pensions will

amount to next to nothing compared to anything that any of us at this

table will be receiving in a pension. That's the unfairness I

think for many of these people. That is a different...

APPLAUSE OK. Do you therefore understand and support the action

that was taken today? By the police and others? The police was a

different demonstration, that was about the 20% cuts we'll see,

16,000 fewer police officers on the streets which I think is an own

goal for this country. It's an own goal and it means that crime will

not be dealt with, antisocial behaviour won't be dealt with.

the strikes? I don't want to see public sector workers go on strike,

I would much prefer the government to be sitting round the table and

negotiating. Where I think they've been unfair is they've simply said,

all right, 3% extra, you've got to pay 3% extra, they've not worked

out whether the pot can pay for the pensions they've already paid money

into and that's the unfairness. Let's hear from the audience. The

woman in the second row? Peter Oborne said a lot of people will be

happy to work until over 70 or something like that. That may well

be the case, but can we look at it from the perspective of other

people such as teachers, nurses. How many teachers will be happen

Foy stand in a classroom of rebellious teachers at the age of

68 or 706? Caroline Spelman? sympathetic to tough, frontline

jobs, but we are missing the point of the question here which is that

whether you are in the good times or the bad times, it's a fact that

we live ten years longer than people lived 30 years ago. We

either face up to that and recollaborate the pensions or load

up the next generation and that's not fair to them. My kids say to me,

mum look, you have plenty of time to see that for our grandparents

there was a problem coming with the pensions. We are not prepared to

bail you out when you have had time to do something about this. Public

sector pensions are still amongst the best pensions that you can have.

They are secure, they are on good terms, negotiations give teachers

and nurses better pensions at the end of all the negotiations and I

think these strikes are ultimately futile because they don't face up

to the fact that we all live longer and that costs the state a lot more.

APPLAUSE The man in the second row from the

back there. Could I just say for information

purposes, the average age of a working class man in the North West

of England is 74, so when I retire having worked for 50 years, I'm

liable to get benefits for nine years. There is no way I'll get in

nine years what I paid in for 50 years. Can I make another point.

Instead of harping on, listening to the Tories and trying to turn the

private and public sectors against each other, in f the public sectors

have better pensions than the private sectors, we should be

striving for the private sector to get just as good as pension as the

public sector. APPLAUSE

I was a pension spokesman for ten years and part of the problem was

that we were trying to get the Labour Government for many years to

face up to this problem of the growing gap between private and

public sector pensions and it's more painful now because nothing

basically was done. Peter Hayes is absolutely right to raise it. There

are 23 million workers in the public sector. It's not right to

say they've borne the brunt of the banking crisis. Only a third have

privately funded at all. It's the taxpayers having to pay for the

very large costs of public sector borns and it's right that they are

reformed. The police have been mentioned and teachers and nurses

and so on are having to pay, but the police, there is no grip on

that and the police is the most that and the police is the most

expensive one of all. They are still retiring on average at about

50 and it's 30% extra it costs, if you look at your police payment. A

policewoman retiring today on average will collect her pension

for longer than she paid into it, so that ties into that. You must

have a balance and fairness between public and private sector. I don't

suppose we have any police officers here who want to comment on that.

Are you a police officer? No. I'll come to you in a moment. Mary

Beard? I'm been very struck by a particularly insidious way in which

we use language about pensions. When I heard the term "gold plated"

pension, I thought I would be proud of that. Then I discovered it was a

term of abuse against the public sector. I thought that that somehow

is what we fought for and I also thought it was absolutely

economically sensible because if we have poor pensioners, it doesn't

mean they don't cost anything, it means the burden of their health

care, their social care et cetera just goes to some other bit of the

public Exchequer. Old people are expensive, basically, and we have

to just take that on the chin. Nobody in the public sector I think

is saying, you can just ignore demography. Can I ask you a

question, Mary Beard, you are a historian of the Roman empire.

Remind me why the Roman empire collapsed, because it went bankrupt.

Isn't that right? But it wasn't happily because of pensions.

APPLAUSE. One of the worst military disasters, the Roman empire

suffered, was when they tried to cut the pensions of the legionrys

in AD14 and they mutinyed. APPLAUSE. The reason why the Roman

empire, as I recollect from meeting Gibbon, who is obviously an

inferior historian, was that the state spending became too much, too

great, and the public productivity became too little. I think that is

a lesson we ought to, bear in mind that the problems of the austerity

and the economic problems of this century.

The man on the right? I've spoken to my financial adviser who tells

me I've got to increase my pension contribution by �600 a month to

maintain two thirds of my salary in retirement. I can tell you that's a

lot more than 3% of what I earn. Quite. You are obviously in the

private sector? Yes. Can I just ask one question on this. If the state

pension age for people who've got no other pension is going up to 68,

on honestly, how can it be sustainable that the police go on

retiring at 50 and the public sector retirement on average is 57,

surely it's only fair that it moves up in the same way. But manual

workers in particular whose bodies are frankly worn out by the time

they get to 65 are the people who die at 70 and never get to enjoy a

proper and decent retirement. APPLAUSE. That's the point. They

are in the private sector, that's fine. All right, we'll go on. We

have many questions tonight. Luke Rigg, please?

Was race an issue in the recent Rochdale grooming case? This is the

case that happened in Rochdale six miles or so from here and one of

the defendants came from Oldham. Nine men all of Asian origin found

guilty of sexual exploitation of underage white girls. Some of you

will have read the story in the newspapers. Was race an issue in

the case? Peter Oborne? I think that it's very important not to

jump to judgment at this stage. It's clear that an awful lot of

things were involved in what is an absolutely shattering and

disgusting and depraved episode in our national life. I mean, one of

them involves the young girls who accepted the advances of these

disgusting men. What does it tell us about the society and what's

happening to our society that we have 12, 13-year-old girl who is

are happy to give up their affection and their beauty to men

in exchange for a packet of crisps or a bit of credit on their mobile

phones. What is it about them that makes them so vulnerable? What's

happened to their families and parents? Some of the girls came

from our care system. Why are we failing to administer our care

system? Now, the question was about race and is this the major issue

and I do think it's worth saying this is a horrifying episode and we

must tell the truth about it, we must look at it very, very clearly

and it is the case that the nine men who have been found guilty now

were, eight from Pakistan, one from Afghanistan. We've got to look at

that, but I don't want to... I mean I've been looking at some figures

today, I read today that 95% of paedophiles in our jails are white,

so I think that, and I also noticed that the BNP and writers who hate

Islam and Muslims, have been jumping on this, saying there's

something evil about Muslims and I just absolutely don't believe that

because the Koran and the teaching of the prophet and all that is

incredibly moral. It condemns this The judge in the case said one of

the factors leading to this case was the fact they were not part of

your community our religion. What did he mean by that? He also went

on to say, by the way, I think, that race was not an issue. I think

that is right. I think what he needs to say - that they were not

part - that the men involved were not part of the community. Let's

hear - we had lots and lots of questions about this. Let's just

hear from some members of our audience. You, sir, in the front.

Yes. As somebody who works in that community, in Heywood, in

particular, I don't believe that race has anything to do with this

case anymore than religion does, whether it's Islam, Christianity,

Judaism or supporting the BNP, which is a religion to some people.

What we have here is breakdown in the cultural values of society

where parents no longer have an influence in how their Children Act

and respond because their children are guided by peripheral ideologies

and interests where they feel it is appropriate at 13 to go out -

forgive me for saying this - I am not saying the victims in this case

did this, but it's certainly prevalent in the streets in the

area - where they go out dressed as if they're looking for that sort of

issue to take place. They don't give themselves - no, no. Please.

Let me explain. They don't give themselves the privilege of growing

up anymore. What is happening is children are growing up too fast.

As you, Peter, said... You're talking entirely about the victims?

No, I am not saying that this is what the victims in this case did,

which is I think what people misinterpreted what I am saying - I

am saying too often when children aren't allowed the privilege to

grow up as children anymore but by society's input they're forced to

grow up too soon, then they become more vulnerable to these predatory

people. Do you agree what Jack Straw said way back about people

from other countries seeing these girls as easy meat? Of course I

don't. I'll come to you in a moment. The woman at the back. Isn't it

about time as a society we had an open and honest debate about race?

Because there's too many people - they talk about it quietly among

themselves, but they're frightened to say anything in case they're

accused of being racist, and unless we do have an open debate about

this, we're going to play into the hands of the BNP. I honestly don't

believe it is just Asian men doing this, and I've worked with

vulnerable young girls. I think they tend to be in a gang and white

paedophiles do it singley. That I think is probably the difference.

But I think as a society, we have to address race in this country,

and we have to do it honestly. would you address race in the way

that you've described? What would you say about this case and the

race issue? I think we've got to stop with this political

correctness and allow people to say, I'm not happy about this, that or

the other. In Aldham, we had the race riots, and people supposedly

addressed them. I stand at the bus stop, and I talk to people, and

what people on the street are saying are not what the councillors

are saying or other people. We're saying something totally different.

Nobody's listening to us. We're not racist, but we want to address this

issue. All right. Yes. I'm listening to you very cheerily,

and you know, I've read -- clearly, and I've read the newspaper

articles, and most importantly, I read what the judge said. He didn't

mince his words especially just having heard from a reverend. He

said it's lust and greed at the root of this, not race. Now, that's

powerful thing to say, but it's true, I'm afraid, we need to look

at our society and see that the sexual exploitation of women is

endemic. When a recent survey was done of the number of illegally

trafficked young girls to London, they found between eight and 9,000

young women being exploited in this way, so sadly, it's everywhere, and

it's not an easy time to be the parent of young teenaged girls. You

can't just lock them up at 7.00pm. We don't want to live in a country

where we need to lock up women at that time. We try and give them the

right values, the right instincts to keep themselves safe, and to

keep them safe from sexual predator, but that'll take all of us working

together to make sure that they are safe on our streets. Can I - can I

- the question was, was race an issue? Can I quote to you from

Bernean ardo's former chief? He says for this particular sort of

crime - that's clearly what we're talking about - there is troubling

evidence that Asians are overwhelmingly represented in the

prosecutions for such offences. can't duck that issue of race in

this case. Everyone says we mustn't duck it, then says nothing. Because

I believe in this community there are people of different races who

would abhor this crime and publicly condemn it who would work together

to stamp it out, and different parts of the country have this same

experience - the problem of young women being sexually exploited that

their communities have to address. This is something where we're all

in it together. You, sir. This is about criminals going after

vulnerable young children. They couldn't care less if you're white,

you're black or Eurasians, and you know, it's got nothing to do with

religion, nothing to do with Islam. It's got nothing to do with one's

culture. It's simply they're going after young, vulnerable children

and here, with white kids. If they were Asians - young Asian girls

there, nothing would have stopped them. We're talking about evil men

who prey on vulnerability. think they would have preyed

equally on - there were some interpretations that said they

wouldn't prey on Asian women because they had a different kind

of respect for them. They had rules about marriage, have rules about

having girlfriends and all of that. That's why they turned to white

girls. You see, we're looking at evil men here. I was reading an

article by Peter Fahey, the Chief Constable for Greater Manchester.

He's saying the same thing - look, don't bring race, culture or

religion into it. It's simply down to vulnerable young children.

woman here in the green. You, yes. I think one of the main

issues we've got to look at here is in 2008, one of these poor girls

went to the police, and the CPS and the police, despite them having

strong evidence - they had her underwear - they neglected to take

this case any further, and I think the CPS and the police have to be

looked at in this. Professor Mary Beard.

One thing is absolutely certain - we don't yet have a really good,

accurate picture of any of this kind of stuff - horrible as it is -

and how it is working across the country. We've got pockets of

statistics, but they're tiny, and they may not be representative. One

thing is certain, however - that nasty, predatory sexual offenders

come in all shapes and sizes, and they come in all colours, and I

find myself thinking on my way up here, what advice would I give - if

I had a teen daughter wherever I was living - whether it was London

or Manchester or Aberdeen - would I say, be careful of the Asians on

the street? No, I wouldn't. I would say don't take a drink or a packet

of cigarettes or a packet of crisps from some guy you don't know, and

at that point race would not come into it. Absolutely. Down there.

Yes. I agree. I think it has absolutely nothing to do with race.

These were just bad people. About what the man at the front saying

about young girls - these girls were just a few years younger than

me, probably two or three years. If they want to go out and wearing a

shorter dress than, say, an Asian girl or heels, I don't see how that

makes them more vul merer inable or -- is vulnerable or asking for it.

It's got nothing to do with race. I know it sounds mean, but if these

girls were willing to accept these things off these men - I know it's

no excuse for what they did - but you have to be careful. Society

isn't the same as a few years ago. You can't take things off people

without knowing them. You're absolutely right on that. The one

thing I agree with Professor Mary Beard is the police must treat

anyone suspected of crimes like this absolutely equally, whatever

their colour. There must be no discrimination at all. I do agree

with you - I'm sorry to disagree with the Minister of Religion in

the front. I think he was verging on suggesting it was partly the

girls' problems for how they dress. This is an evil crime, and we must

focus on that, surely. I would like to defend the Minister. I was very

interested in what he said. We have to ask why were these girls so

vulnerable? Why were they so ready to surrender their innocence for a

bag of crisps? Beefly. It wasn't a question of

surrendering their innocence for a bag of crisp, but thank you for

saying you want to defend me. I appreciate that. What I'm trying to

get across, although I didn't do it in a very good way - is that there

is a breakdown from the very start in the - I hate to say traditional

family values, but the core concept of children being supported from a

very early age these days to enjoy innocence. Absolutely. There is

absolutely no excuse. There is no way in which these girls were in

any way responsible for what happened. Any innocent can never be

held responsible for the actions of an adult. Can I put another quote

to you? Today the Chief Crown Prosecutor for north-west England -

he blamed what he called "imported cultural baggage," and said of the

people, "They think that women are some lesser being." Now, that is a

sort of cultural and indeed - you could say an attack on members of

the Asian community made by an Asian, clearly.

It may have been made by an Asian person, but I don't believe that to

be endemic within the entire Asian community anymore than I believe

any white middle class male with a short haircut is a member of the

BNP. It's a fallacy. However, there are certain negative elements

within every society who treat different parts of society with

less equality than should be... Brian? The bottom line is a 13-

year-old girl who is raped and ends up getting pregnant by a 47-year-

old man is a victim, a victim of a crime that the police should have

been dealing with as soon as they had any intimation that this might

have been a possibility. Certainly right. It may well be because of

the instance that the lady referred to, that this has been ignored for

too long. I worry - because the issues that you're referring to,

sir, might apply in an ordinary family - if there is such a thing

as an ordinary family arrangement, but actually some of these girls

are the 47 girls, and the Chief Constable has said there might be

others who haven't felt comfortable to come forward - were in care. And

the shocking statistics in this country about girls in care -

they're five times more likely to end up being a teen mum giving

birth under the age of consent, 16. There are 65,000 of them. The

heroes and heroines of this country are those that take children into

foster care and adopt because often they're taking on children who have

an awful lot of problems through the scars of difficult lives.

entirely true of all the children in this case... A significant

number. Some of whom were being - in homes with one child in,

charging nearly a quarter of a million pounds a year to look after

the child. It was terrible. There was one other element I didn't like

about the story, which is one of the defendants' barristers said he

believes his convicttions nothing to do with justice, but result from

the faith of the defendants, and he flew at the court - this is the

person who shouted obscenities at the judge, but he also shouted at

the court that all the jury was white. Justice in this country must

be colourblind. It must treat everybody absolutely equally, and

that goes exactly to the point the lady at the back made about race.

Yes, we must feel free to talk about race and immigration. Some

racists do talk about these issue, but it doesn't make you racist to

talk about race. But we need to do it on clear information, not just

sound-off on one or two cases. Absolutely. I'll go to one or two...

We're missing the point here. We're a developed country, and we're all

educated. Why is race an issue? Why is my colour and his colour

different? Why do we pick up on that? I thought we were educated. I

thought we got past that part... Which is why... We need to open our

eyes and realise that. The man at the back in the spectacles, at the

very back. We're told this is the first ever prosecution of its kind,

yet, we're also told it's widespread. I wonder if we need to

take a different approach to crimes like this. Rather than talking

about race, do we need to take a different approach to detect and

prevent this crime to prevent the most vulnerable children in our

society - perhaps set up a new task force to stop this crime. You're

nodding. Do you agree? Yeah, to be honest, I think it's major issue.

To go back to what the lady said earlier - there was a young girl

who reported this in 2008 to a social worker. She was interviewed

and classed as an incredible witness. Is that because she was in

care or would it be - if it was your daughter or yours, would she

be classed as a credible witness? Do you know what I mean? I think

it's major issue in this case of child protection, and if I worked

in a children's home, and there was some men - no matter what race or

religion - outside the door picking up a child, I would not let the

child leave the door. I think there is an issue of child protection. We

need to change the child protection laws to say, no, I am looking after

you. Your best interests are to stay in this house. I'll control

that. As Caroline Spelman was saying, it's not as easy as that

because you can't physically prevent people in these senses from

going out in the evening. should be able to. You should have

some kind of curfew. I want to say, it isn't easy. I'm raising

teenagers, and they... If I were to foster a child, I can do that.

think most parents would say it's pretty difficult to lock them up at

7.00pm even if that was the humane thing to do. We need to teach them

the right defences. One of the difficult things about

detectability, most of the sexual exploitation of women, I'm sorry to

say it, occurs at home in a domestic setting and it goes

undetected, as Professor Mary Beard says. We need to really tackle and

grip it. Theresa May announced the child protection centre is going to

be strengthened becoming part of the national crime agency linking

up agency so these poor people don't fall through the cracks.

think we'll move on. Many of you sill have your hands up. Sorry

about that. I know it's an issue clearly close to Oldham. You can

join in tonight's debate if you're Let's take a question, please,

quite different subject, from John Walsh, if you are here, please?

Monsieur Hollande plans to tax and spend for growth as an alternative

to austerity. Would it work for the The new French President wants to

tax and spend for growth instead of austerity. Would it work for the

United Kingdom? He's proposing tax at the top end of 75% and 20

billion euros of extra spending I think. Matthew oak oak, you are the

economist among us? -- Matthew Oakeshott, you are the economist

among us? Nicolas Sarkozy fought the most nasty, xenophobic campaign

to try to get the National Front votes and I think it's excellent

there is a change in France and Francois Hollande I think will be a

breath of fresh air. APPLAUSE

We do, while I wouldn't go so far as he is on the tax, though the

fact is that rich people don't pay their fair share of tax in this

country. I certainly and Liberal Democrats would never have cut the

top rate of tax from 50p to 45p in the budget and buzz that was done,

that's I think really crystallised all the other worries there. We

have got to a stage where pure austerity is not working. It's not

working in Europe, it's not working in Britain. We are going to have to

be much more vigorous on growth. Two things we'd do which very much,

Francois Hollande's campaign has been very much focused, I mean the

previous socialist candidate said on Sunday that the banks will obey

instead of commanding. There will be some resistent but the power of

money is still there. France is not going to accept the control of the

banks that we've been much too feeble about and we also need to

get much more capital spending going in this country and in the

rest of Europe and in this country, the key is to get some really

serious spending on housing, because that is where the jobs are,

that's where the need is. 100,000 more houses a year will be half a

million jobs and that's what's really essential and that can be

done with private sector money, the big institutions are desperate to

find a way to have safe long-term index-linked investments. I think

we should work with Hollande, Merkel is far too restrictive and

there is a real chance of getting serious growth in Europe again if

we cooperate. APPLAUSE

Caroline Spelman, there's a curious series of comments on this election.

Our Chancellor, your Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, said

of Francois Hollande "he's a centre-left politician who has not

stood against austerity, he wants austerity, it's the Labour Party

and Ed Balls who are actually against austerity." then I look a

bit further down and Francois Hollande says "I don't want a

Europe of austerity." what on earth is going on? The Tories who refuse

to greet him when he came to London before the election now say he

wants austerity. He says, I don't want austerity? Right. So where do

we go? U-turn. A U-turn you think it is? Yes. First of all, thank you

very much, we had a clue from David's tie, which is a blue frog.

From a Tory Cabinet Minister, that's a racist remark. These are

just frogs. I don't wear ties appropriate...

This is a good question. Withdraw that remark! People pay so much

attention to women's appearance, David, know what it feels like.

flattered, it's the contagion you have got wrong. I'm glad this

question's come up. Good, let's get on with it. I lived and worked in

France for six years. As a nation, they are intensely pragmatics, so

for all the rhetoric of the election, in practice, they'll be

pragmatic in achieving their goal. Francois Hollande said they will

balance their books by 2017, exactly the same objective that the

coalition Government has set our nation. Now, they may do it by a

combination of taxing and spening in their way. We have chosen to do

it with a combination of thrift and export-led recovery and growth --

spending in their way. All European countries in these difficult times

face the challenge of how to get the economy growing, but I

genuinely believe when the IMF said the UK economy will grow faster

this year than the economies of France and Germany, you have to say

the combination we have come to has given confidence to the wider world

that we are on track to achieve it. We are not growing, we are just

contracting less fast. The man in the tie there, whether frogged or

not. Yes? I was just wondering, the gentleman says the Lib Dems are

against the Budget and everything. No, I said we are against the

cutting of the top rate. But it was cut and you are in a coalition and

so therefore the Lib Dems must have agreed to it. So you can't just sit

there and say that the Lib Dems do not agree to this when you are in a

coalition Government and the Government's Budget cut the top

rate of tax. I wouldn't have done it, I'm not in

the Government. You haven't half got a cheek. I know you are in the

House of Lords soyou don't get to vote on 237tial matters but all

your Lib Dem colleagues walked in with the Conservatives to cut the

rate from 50p to 45 so honestly, no-nonsense here tonight and

Caroline, how out of touch to give us a glowing representation of the

state of the British finances. the International Monetary Fund.

Only three countries had woshes growth than us, that was Greece,

Portugal and Spain and that's where you are spending us to go -- worse

growth. It's less than 0%, we are in a double dip recession. That

double dip recession was made on your doorstep by your policies. You

will I say ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Where have you been in the last few

years? A little bit of balance here. The Labour spokesman here...

him answer. This Government, Caroline Spelman's Government,

inherited the mother and father of a mess. Absolutely. You are trying

to get out of it. And his mob basically agree with the

Conservative Liberal Democrat strategy which is to cut the

deficit. You just cut it by a tiny bit less. The idea that that would

make a huge difference to growth - dream on. This week in the Queen's

speech, we have not had a single policy for growth. Comen, that's

not true. You are opposed to policies for growth. Even the...

Even the Daily Telegraph's headline today was that there's nothing for

growth in the Queen's speech. And there isn't. If you end up with

more people out of work, we've got the highest level for many, many

years, receiving benefits, not paying tax, you end up making the

deficit and the debt not... I'll come to you in a moment. Not a

single policy for growth from the man who's just been saying that

people are having to bear the brunt of the banking crash. There is a

very, very important policy for growth, which Labour were never

able to touch, which is we are going to sort out the banks and

make them safe. That's in the Queen's speech and something that

Gordon Brown and Labour refused to do because Vince Cable's been

leading that campaign for years and years and years and that's really,

really important. Hang on. When you guys and Caroline, treating you as

a guy temporarily. When you guys start to talk like this, I feel

really, really worried. Are you including this guy as well? Yes,

the whole lot of you. I know that I have not the foggiest clue what is

going to get the world or Europe out of recession, I'm not supposed

to know, I'm not a Professor of Economics, but a Professor of

Classics. When I listen to you guys argue, what I see is that you don't

have the foggiest clue actually either. What I do know and I

suppose it's slightly to come down on Chris's side, not looking to

Monsieur Hollande, he seems a rather sensible bloke, but how

would I know? I look at Greece and 50% of the under 24-year-olds in

Greece being unemployed and I think, if there is nothing on the

intellectual political horizon apart from austerity, what on earth

are young people going to do? What hope have they got? They're

ignorant, but something has to be done, there has to be a plan B.

have to look beyond Europe. You need to look to the emerging

economies of India, China, Russia, Brazil. We were exporting a

lamentable amount to those countries under the last Government.

These are growing economies. I come from the West Midlands, we do

manufacturing, that now knows it has a Government fully behind it.

We are exporting massively our cars to China, India, thousands of jobs

through Jaguar Land Rover, Rolls- Royce, Bentley Nissan, we'll earn

our way in the world through export-led recovery. The question

was about taxing and spending for growth. The man with spectacles?

The coalition have spent two years blaming Labour. Labour have spent

two years opposing everything the coalition have said, they'd oppose

the opening of an envelope if they had the chance. Isn't it time you

got together and started solving the problem instead of arguing

constantly? It's bad enough with two parties, try getting three!

The man on the gangway? Andrew George said this morning that

legislating for jobs is like legislating for the sun to shine.

It doesn't work and what you have to do is get it out of the way and

in things like the Queen's speech getting rid of loads of regulations

which stop businesses working and creating jobs, that's the problem.

The man in the second row here? Thank you, David. It's not only our

land. Look at the Greece election and Italian elections and local

elections so austerity is totally rejected. It's high time Cameron

gets out of his so-called bull- headed determination and pig-headed

arrogance. It's about time he learned that austerity is not

working, we are already in a double dip recession for Gods' sake. We

have to move forward, otherwise we are finished. APPLAUSE

All three of them want to answer you. Can I answer the first

question which I thought was a very good one which is, why aren't you

all working together to sort out this desperate crisis. Let me say,

it was pretty bloody painful for a lot of us to cooperate with the

Conservatives in order to sort out the economy and make it grow. I

must say to you so far, it's not working and nothing's more

important than getting the economy to grow. If we don't get it to grow

quite soon, we may have to consider whether all three parties need to

come together. That's the logic of what we could do, but let's really

have a serious go, but frankly we can't sit here for another year

with the economy getting worse because we won't get the deficit

down if it doesn't grow. To answer the original question about Mr

Hollande and also to answer Mary Beard's demand for plan B, it's a

clear reason and solution to the problem and that, I'm afraid to say,

is to get rid of the euro. That is the reason why Greece is

uncompetitive, that is the reason you have got 50% youth unemployment

is Spain, that is if reason why we are returning to a barter economy

in Athens and the eurocrats like your friends, Matthew Oakeshott,

they are prepared for the sake of this dogma to drive European

economies absolutely to the wall. Get rid of the euro and then Mr

Hollande can reflate France and Greece can recover and we can go

back to a stable and prosperous I don't really know, like Mrs Beard,

how to run the economy for the country, but in terms of running

the economy for our own houses, when we get in trouble, we cut back.

We go us a steer on ourselves so we're not paying excessive

interest... He's right. You say he's right. I want to hear from our

audience. The lady behind you in the spectacles. I work in the not-

for-profit advice sector. We're seeing a massive increase in the

number of people coming through the door for help with their debt

problems, unemployment problems, housing problems. People are really

struggling at the moment. I want to know what the Government are going

to do about it. At the same time Government are cutting funding to

support people to help them for their debts. Where's the money for

the not-for-profit debt centre? gentleman in the second row has

said we have had two years of it. It ain't working. The three

questions linked together - you want austerity - if it's your

household budget and you're having to borrow a quarter of what it

takes to run your household, you would be worried, and you would

need to introduce measures of thrift. Let's call it thrift, then,

because thrift is a virtue, and thrift needs to be part of the

solution to our problems. The Prime Minister called it efficiency. You

might call it austerity. I call it efficiency he, said. They're

slightly different thing, but they complement each other. Thrift means

you live within your means. We have to earn our way as a country. That

means we have to make savings as well as to grow. One word about

growth in - PROBLEM WITH SOUND

Did you not hear what my friend Matthew said about tackling the

banks? I would say the employment - enterprise employment and

regulatory reform bill is there to cut the red tape. I'm sorry. I want

to answer your point about thrift because if you are a person who

relies for your job on your car to get to work because there is no

public transport or it's so expensive or whatever, and your car

is broken or whatever, you might choose to borrow to buy a new car

so as to keep on earning, and that's precisely the kind of thing

- I think sometimes you have you have to do with an economy. I would

say, yes, we should have a VAT cut at the moment. That would help with

fuel bills. It should be temporary. We should have a tax cut for

businesses that employ extra people - take people on at the moment, and

we should do something abouting you people under the age of 24 to give

them jobs because the real danger is they'll be completely lost for a

whole generation. Let's keep to the topic. Jonathan Ford has a question

pertinent to what has been going on. Yes? Cameron and Clegg were about

this week - will this -- renewed their vows this week. Will it reach

- You sigh, madam. Will this marriage reach its fifth

anniversary? It's certainly not a marriage. It's a five-year business

contract, a fixed term, to fix the economy. I can tell you we might be

together in the office and despite Caroline Spelman calling me her

friend, we're certainly not together in the bedroom.

LAUGHTER This is painful. Which is painful

and difficult? Well, being in with the Conservatives, not obviously

being friendly with Caroline. But the key thing is we've got to get

the economy growing, and if it doesn't grow, we won't get the

deficit down, and it's not just either of our two parties that is

finished - the country. That is essential. I'm afraid we've got to

be a lot bolder, and the Treasury, I am afraid, is not being tough

enough. Sir Matthew Pinsent, you're -- Oakesshott - you're a peer and a

backbench peer, but do you think Liberal Democrats will start to

pull out of this, Vince Cable and others? No. If what you say is true

there will come a moment when they say, we resign. I negotiate all day

in my day job. Everything is a negotiation. You obviously don't

show all of your cards. It is a card. We have a coalition agreement,

and the coalition agreement is a very good one. I wish we'd stick to

it. One of the things we said in there - we would consider having

net lending targets for the nationalised banks. The Royal Bank

of Scotland, the biggest lender to small business in this country - is

totally failing to do its job. If we could actually get them to lend,

that would really help. The fact is we have an agreement, and we're

going to stick to it. Do you think the marriage will last? No, it

won't. Matthew is being terribly high minded and suggesting it's all

to do with policy and whether we can get the nation back on its feet.

It's going to be surely when push comes to shove about the Liberal

Democrat sense of survival, and when I was confronted last week -

wherever it was - with deciding who to vote for in my local election, I

am afraid I could not bring myself to do what I'd often done in the

past and that is to vote Lib Dem because I thought, I am not voting

for the Tories. Now, that was replicated in thousands and

thousands of households all over the country, and when the next

election starts to become near, it's going to be a question of...

We still hung on to the council in Cambridge. I know because I was

knocking up in your ward... No, you didn't. You lost control - won

Independent. Can I say I hope they stay together because I think the

alternative would destroy Britain. I think Chris Bryant is looking

extremely smug at the moment, and anybody can look smug when they're

not in power and having to make the awful decisions that the other two

parties are making at the moment. You're looking smug.

APPLAUSE Do you think it will last, was the

question, apart from the comment on your appearance.

Yes. Yes, I think the Government will survive. I think it will go

all the way to 2015. Actually, I have never thought that the Liberal

Democrats would walk away because why on earth would they when

they're having the poll ratings that they're having at the moment?

But to be honest, I think the bigger issue for me is that if they

carry on with the style of doing politics at the moment, I think

there will be a real problem for this country. I don't think people

like the way the budget was put together, and the fact that little

bits and pieces were, you know - one side was claiming that they'd

got this bit and the other side was claiming another side - it feels -

I mean, God knows, when we were in power, we had battles inside the

Government, but the... The battle was stopped. Inside the

Conservative Party I noticed last week - people are already calling

for the Prime Minister to resign or one member of the Conservative

Party who says she's got another 45 to join her and all the rest of it.

But to be honest, I don't think voters care about any of that. The

only thing they care about at the moment is fuel bills, gas bills,

whether they've got a job, whether there is going to be a job for them

there in 18 months' time. I just think this week with the Queens'

Speech, which was an opportunity really to talk to the nation - it

was a completely lost opportunity. It didn't deal with anything that

really matters to ordinary voters... I don't agree with that.

Really? The first line in the Queens' Speech said that her

Ministers' first priority is to get the deficit reduction down. They've

got to because the interest payments every year are bigger than

the defence budget. It's �43 billion a year every year while we

have that deficit. What could we do with that money? Sorry, sir, but

you can't get the deficit down unless you have people in jobs

paying tax, and you can't get people in jobs unless you have

growth in the economy, and that's single bit that's missing.

APPLAUSE Explain how you - he has made a

point many people make. How do you get the tax if people are out of

work and they're getting benefits - what's your answer? So this

gentleman is right. The purpose of the marriage - I have been married

for 25 years this year, and when you go through tough situations

together, it makes you stronger and makes you closer together as you

take the difficult decisions together, and we're not deflected -

this is what we said in the Queens' Speech - we'll not be deflected

from fixing the nation's finances. That's our top priority, but in the

Queens' Speech, we recognise fairness and opportunity must be

addressed. Chris, you must find it in your heart to recognise in the

Queens' Speech to help parents who have children with special

educational needs. Who can say there isn't room for the Government

to be able to do important things like that help with... We're asking

about the coalition, whether the coalition will survive. That's the

point. The coalition will survive I believe because we're fixed on the

purpose of sorting out the nation's finances and making sure that we

address what we hear people want us to address in terms of fairness and

opportunity. Hold on, Chris. The woman there. I work in urban

regeneration. I think it's really important that the one thing I am

getting across from all of you is you want economic prosperity and

growth. We're in Oldham. It's a northern town having loads of

difficulties with manufacturing decline. Unemployment is really

high. What advice would you give for the people running the Council

of Oldham? Should they concentrate on spending cuts with regard to

local services or should they put their efforts into prosperity and

growth? Hold on. Hold on. Can you just come to the end? Should they

put their efforts into prosperity and growth for Oldham as a town and

regeneration or should they be concentrating on reducing the

spending of services and cuts? I think you would agree with me

without prosperity and growth, we don't have much of a future anyway

as a northern town. I don't know about Oldham. I am not going to

make a specific comment. It's not specific to only a northern town.

The way you framed that question, you said, are we going to have

spending cuts, or are we going to have prosperity and growth? As if

that is the option facing the country. Unfortunately, that isn't

the option facing the country. By the way, everybody around this

table and in the room seems to think we're in a period of

austerity. Let's consider one amazing fact. Since the foundation

of the Bank of England in 1690-odd to 2010, the date of the last

election, our national debt went from 0 to 800 billion. Under George

Osborne's so-called austerity plans, it's going to go from �800 billion

to �1,600. Our national debt is going to double - even under the

so-called austerity, we're not living - if we're going to get to

prosperity and growth, we have to go through a very heavy period, a

difficult period, of severe and long-lived retrenchment I am afraid.

The question I was asking you was, they're in a position where they're

having to reduce spending cuts, but what advice would you give them in

regards to how do they deal with prosperity and growth? What action

should Tay take when they've got a very, very difficult job to do?

Caroline Spelman. There is two really good things they have done.

So Oldham Council availed itself of the money that the Chancellor made

available to freeze council tax here in Oldham two years running,

so that was a good thing to do. That helps hardworking families

with an important bill. That's a practical measure. The other thing

they've done is avail themselves of the apprenticeship scheme, and

2,500 young people in Oldham this year will benefit from an

apprenticeship scheme because we must help the young people get a

start on the working ladder. When you say "will benefit" - you mean

there are 2,500 apprenticeships... There are. We hear of people trying

to get apprenticeships where their children can't get a job.

understand that. Here in Oldham, 2,500 young people will benefit

from the opportunity to get that start on their working life. Chris

Bryant. The difficult for authoritys is they're having cuts

year on year. I'm sorry, Caroline Spelman, but I would say to you if

you were serious about helping ordinary working families, the

first clause of the Queens' Speech was "My Government will undo the

budget from March this year" because it was unfair. It gave more

money to millionaires than anybody else. We're coming to our end. I

want to check one thing with you. Peter Hayes says in two years the

national debt is going to double. Five years - five or six. 800 to

1,600. Are you telling the truth the Ministers said, it's not a

figure I recognise. It's going up. Come on. You know the... Well, I

don't know. He made this claim which sounded lavish. Is he right?

What I know is it's going to go an awful lot faster if we don't get

growth going. We leave it there. Our time will be out if we don't

stop. We're going to be in Cardiff next week. We're going to have the

astrophysicist, former guitarist of Queen Brian May on the panel. Next