17/05/2012 Question Time

Tonight we are in the old coal exchange building in Cardiff.

Welcome to Question Time. On our panel here, the former Welsh

Secretary who's just stepped down from the Shadow Cabinet, Peter Hain.

From the coalition, the Conservative Minister for Disabled

People, Maria Miller. Daily Mail columnist and former editor of the

Sun, Kelvin MacKenzie. Newly elected leader of Plaid Cymru,

Leanne Wood and the author and comedy script writer, John

O'Farrell. Thank you very much. Our first question from Chris Roberts,

please. To you agree with the Home Secretary when she says police

officers should stop complaining about being picked on?

The Home Secretary of course who was booed and hissed and all the

rest of it at the Police Federation this week and she said they should

stop complaining. Was she right, Peter Hain? Of course she wasn't

right. They are cutting the number of police officers by 16,000. 6,000

of them on the frontline from emergency services, from traffic

duty, neighbourhood policing. I'm not surprised that you've got

30,000 police officers marching outside Westminster complaining

about the Government's cuts. This was a Government that was elected

on a platform of law and order and what are they doing? Depriving the

local communities of the police officer who is can fight crime and,

not surprisingly, crime is starting to creep up. Isn't she saying they

are not being cut any more than anybody else, everybody in the

public sector is being cut by this amount? Actually, police officers

are suffering a particularly hard cut, but the question is, what are

your priorities, are they allowing bankers to get massive bonuses or

allowing police officers to do the job for which they were recruited

instead of them being cut back virtually in entire number of

police officers we recruited under Labour are being cut back under

this Tory-led Government and it's outrageous, in my view.

APPLAUSE Maria Miller? Well, it's clear that

we need to make sure that after the coalition Government came into

power we had to make some very difficult decisions and those

decisions will include looking at policing in this country. I think

all of us want to see more police visible in our communities working

hard to cut crime. I think the most important thing we've done is scrap

the target-led culture that the Labour Party had put in place and

actually said there's one target we want all police to deliver on,

that's to cut crime. Instead of having just one in ten police out

on our streets at any time, to actually get more police out on our

streets. That's what we want to see and I think we can achieve the

sorts of efficiencies that we need to to make sure that... How many

fewer police officers are there now? It's not about the number.

not? It's about how we make sure the police deliver the sort of

crime reduction we need. So it doesn't matter if you are cut by

5,000 as Labour claims? It matters to get more out on the streets and

at the moment we have one in ten out fighting crime and the rest are

stuck in back offices. John O'Farrell, you fought Theresa May

didn't you? I stood against her, those were the shoes I was trying

to step into. This has been a fascinating thing to on si, the

police marching, which is interesting enough in itself. I

wish the students got it together and kettled them actually. I wonder

what the police estimate of the march would be as well. I suppose

it would be half of what it actually was. This is a serious

problem when a Conservative Home Secretary is heckled by the police

and booed by the police. I thought the protest was dignified and very

effective when I saw it. The question is, or shouldn't they

suffer the same cuts as all other public sector workers. The answer

is no, because we shouldn't be cutting the public sector, this is

part of austerity. There are no yellow crimes or did you see this

incident in the city of London, where are the yellow signs about

the crimes in the City of London saying, your pension was stolen,

the huge bonuses were paid to people who shouldn't have got them.

The crimes are happening in the City of London and they are not

being investigated and the police are being cut in our communities

and it's the poor who suffer when crime goes up and it's the people

most vulnerable in our communities who suffer when crime goes up so

Theresa May shouldn't be cutting police, sheshed be keeping them at

the levels Labour set them at -- she should be keeping them at the

levels Labour set them at. APPLAUSE

Man in the second row at the back? I would like to suggest it's an

issue about how we look at how we budget do we budget on efficiency

and trying to get the best out of the service that we can afford or

just throw money at a problem? you, Sir? I think Mr Hain forgets

that the reason why all cuts are happening is because of the mess

that his crowd left us in. I don't accept that.

APPLAUSE We had an international banking crisis, you cannot lay it

at Labour's door that we recruited too many police officers and

therefore the entire banking system around the world collapsed.

APPLAUSE You? What annoys public sector

workers is that we see our jobs going, but I don't see any MP jobs

going. That's what really annoys us. Kelvin MacKenzie? Under the

boundary changes, you will see MP jobs going. I would like to divide

this question into two. I hated the way that the Home Secretary was

treated by the Police Federation. I have been a massive supporter of

the police all my life, but this woman stood up, she was invited to

come along and the police should have shown more courtesy towards

her. It's a form of bullying and I felt very, very uncomfortable at

seeing the way she was treated. They should have been treated with

respect. Now I'll deal with the issue. It's quite simple. We're

skint, we haven't got any money, state workers are going to have to

take it on the chin in exactly the same way as anybody else. The

police, the firemen, the nurses, Local Government workers, Town Hall,

everybody has to take some pain. The Police Federation actually

don't like some of the aspects of the Windsor Report which looked at

bringing in graduates in at police inspector level. There are a whole

series of issues the Police Federation don't like but they

shouldn't forget common courtesies and when you treat a woman Home

Secretary in that manner, you lose your argument and I feel very, very

bad towards the police for the first time in my life.

APPLAUSE The man in the second row from the

back? Did Kelvin MacKenzie always treat women with the utmost respect

when he was at the Sun? Are you saying she was treated perfectly

properly in your view? Not at all, I was checking on whether he was

being hypocritical. The woman on the right? I'm just wondering what

pain that we'll have to suffer as part of Theresa May's policies to

have the police cuts so radical, as most of us are law-abiding citizens,

you know, what consequences will there be for us as a result of

these cuts? I think crime is bound to get worse.

The police budgets can't take a 20% hit without there being a wider

impact in the community then. I impact in the community then. I

think the point that you made here about the unfairness of the

situation, we are not all in this together, we public sector workers

are being asked to pay for the mistakes of the bankers which they

didn't cause. Do you know, this fact that rich people are getting

richer, the Times Rich List shows that this week the people who're

earning the most have earned even more, so they are not taking the

hit, so we are not all in this together at all are we? You know

Labour wanted to cut the police by 12%, the cost of the policing, are

you in favour of that, or do you think that's also...? I wouldn't

say... Are you against Labour and Tory? Yes, I am against Labour and

Tory, but I wouldn't say there are no savings to be made. I know that

in other public sector organisations, for example, by

working with Trade Unionists you can identify savings that could be

made, particularly at the top where bonuses are being paid to the top

managers and so on. But what is happening, and I think the thing

that people feel that is really, really unfair, is that people on

the bottom rungs of the ladder are being asked to bear the brunt of

the cuts that have to be made. The people at the top are still

offshoring their tax accounts, avoiding tax and so on. So it's

that unfairness and injustice that people can't stomach I think.

APPLAUSE Maria Miller, do you want to pick

up the point that was made that the police ought to be protected of all

the Public Services, that they deserve not to be cut as much as

everybody else? Police clearly provide our community with a really

unique service and we've got to make sure that they are paid in the

right way. But there will still remain, even after the changes that

are put forward, the best paid emergency services. What I want to

see is not cuts to the frontline, I actually want to see more of the

staff that we've got there, more of the officers we've got there on the

frontline out in our community working to cut crime rather than

having what happened under Labour, an inexorable increase in the

amount of bureaucracy. Simply cutting out the 72 forms somebody

has to fill in before they are arrested and taken into custody

really make a difference to the amount of policing we can have in

this country. Thousands of police officers are being pulled off the

frontline, anybody knows that. police officers in the audience

here? I'm a retired police officer. What do you make of Kelvin

MacKenzie? I think he was 100% right on that point. When I joined

in 197, the respect for, if you like, authority, it was a different

service then, it was drilled in from the word go. Maybe that's

drifted over the 30 years. The Home Secretary would always be respected.

Senior officers would always be addressed with the correct terms.

There has been a drift on that. But that's not the point I wanted to

make. I just wanted to get over effectively that these cuts, if

they are on the frontline, they will be a disaster and a threat to

society itself. I think the police pay and conditions do need

reviewing, but rather like the Health Service, it's about the fat

cats at the top, ACPO, business development units being put into

forces, people on fat salaries, big pensions, high powered vehicles and

yet the street, the police officer parading on a Saturday night, two,

three or four going out facing goodness knows what, rather like

nurses on wards waiting what's to come in when all the people earning

the big bucks are sat well away from the problem. We really do have

to address the funds on the frontline.

Thank you very much. APPLAUSE

Always management isn't it, management, management, management.

Another question from Alan Fowler, please? David Cameron yesterday

told Europe to make up its mind. What choice has he given UK voters

- do we stay or not? Kelvin MacKenzie? Well, actually,

Cameron missed a great opportunity when he stood in the general

election because he could have said actually I'm going to give you a

vote on whether you stay in Europe or not himself and I tip my hat to

Jon Cruddas, the Labour Cabinet adviser, I suppose, who is now

saying that in the next manifesto for Labour they will include that

opportunity. Seeing Cameron right now basically saying make up your

mind and all the rest of it, I feel that he hasn't shown leadership in

the European debate and therefore basically hasn't got a right to say

one way or the other. The truth about the matter is that the Greeks

themselves are going to decide the outcome of all this because they

are now withdrawing their money from the banks. A run on the banks

will definitely mean that they will be exiting from the euro. We know

ourselves from the Northern Rock performance that in fact we had to

nationalise it to effectively stop a run on the banks. For the graecks,

I'm afraid it looks as though they are exiting -- Greeks. I'm not

satisfied with Cameron since he should have in the first instance

given us the opportunity to say whether we wanted to be part of

this euroland or not. It was a great political opportunity he

missed and I'm looking forward to Mr Cruddas and Labour giving us

Be in Labour's manifesto at the next election, that there should be

a referendum? Jon Cruddas is your campaign co-ordinator? I think the

way things are going in Britain, I think people in Britain probably

will want to make up their mind whether to stay in Europe or not. I

would, if there were to be a referendum and Labour were to call

one, and I don't think we should be frightened of a referendum, we put

the case for Wales, for Britain, being in Europe. The great

advantage that's brought to the whole of Europe. We forget it was

the European Union that's brought peace and democracy and stability

to whole parts of Europe that used to fight each other. We had more

wars on the European Continent than any other part of the world. That's

what the European Union was brought into being to achieve. I think lots

of mistakes have been made, but the fundamental question, should we be

in or out of Europe, I would argue for staying in. On the current

problems... Before you leave, that do you want Ed Miliband to endorse

the call for a referendum? Kelvin wants to be out of Europe. No, I

would like to see the people have a vote on it. It's the biggest issue

our country has faced in 30-40 years and we cannot seem to be able

to have a vote. I don't think we should be frightened of having a

vote. Labour has had more referenda on having a vote, including in

Wales on a devolution. But do you want the same austerity that's

being rammed down the throats of people in Britain spreading like

wildfire throughout Europe, and it's the same right-wing austerity

programmes that a lot of people in Greece are rejecting, because it

will never work. it is the same failed 1930s policies that Cameron

and Clegg are trying out in Britain and delivering the policies that

are being followed by the European leadership. That's why Europe is so

unpopular at the moment. APPLAUSE You've just left a shadow Cabinet

and Jon Cruddas has just come in to work on this. Are you saying Ed

Miliband is moving towards offering a referendum? First of all there

should not be a referendum now or for the foreseeable future. What

would the referendum be on? If there is to be a referendum in the

future, and the party will debate this, Ed Balls has indicated it

might be something we go for in the future, it should be on whether you

are in or out. Not on the current policies which are dangerous and

devastating and totally wrong for Europe, just as they are in Britain.

Britain is a democracy, so sure it is the British people who should

decide whether we stay or go. Miller, do you agree with that?

think at the moment Peter is right - Europe is in crisis and we need

to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to try and

bring stability into Europe. I think these questions are for

another time. I think the reason why Britain is staying out of a lot

of that crisis exactly because we have taken the decision to pay down

our deficit and now we've paid down a quarter of Labour's deficit. And

we were starting to see some good signs coming through, in terms, and

I think we are starting to see good signs in unemployment. What we need

to do at this time is make sure Greece sticks to its bail-out

programme and make sure we get some stability back. Why? Because it is

really important to the future of Britain. We have a trading rip with

Europe that's incredibly important. If it doesn't come back to Europe

it is going to overshadow the recovery of this country. Sure the

Greeks have a right to vote over whether or not they have austerity

in their own country, the same way we have a right to vote on other

issues? They've got an election coming up. Presumably that's what

they'll do. What's clear is across Europe, across Wales, people have

voted against austerity. I think that's a very clear response. I

think politicianings need to take note of that. If you don't take

note of that, I think ordinary people will take action and fight

against the austerity cuts. There is no reason to make any cuts.

There's �123 billion in this country uncollected and avoided and

evaded in tax. We don't need to make any cuts. We could invest in

jobs and in the future of this country thoofplt could be happening

all across Europe. -- And that could be happening all across

Europe. I have to take Mr Hain to task a little about the European

Union. It wasn't set up like the United Nations under the auspices

of peace in Europe. It was an economic -driven experiment, driven

by France and Germany. It has failed. We've quite correctly

stayed out of it to the extent that we have done. It is for them to

pick up the pieces I think. We are still in the single market. Leanne

Wood? It seems clear to me that people across Europe now are voting

against austerity measures. People are at breaking point. Where they

right to? People, when they are at breaking point, they can take no

more. In Greece they've taken attacks on their conditions as

workers. At some point you can't make ends meet. And yet Germany has

austerity and growth. Germany is in a different position. You see

what's happened in France with the election of President Hollande. I

think there is hope there. His programme is interesting. It is

similar to Plaid Cymru's programme actually. That will disappoint him!

David Cameron says it is close to him, Plaid Cymru and the Tories

meet. A centralist economic policy and an SME-led jobs creation

programme. And also he's just announced a 30% pay cut to his

Ministers, which I think is quite good as well. And that shows that

we are all in it together doesn't it when he takes action like that?

Are you for 75% income tax rate? think people who are rich should

pay more into the pot than they are paying now. John O'Farrell? I think

the idea of a 75% tax rate for the superrich is actually a very good

idea. The top 1,000 earners in the Sunday Times Rich List are �150

billion richer since the crash. If they were taxed at the 28% rate of

inheritance tax, that would pay 75% off deficit off in one fell swoop.

Can you imagine all the jobs that would be saved if we did that. I

think David Cameron was deeply unimpress niv Prime Minister's

Questions. He says they need to make up or break up. He sounds like

a caller in a late night phone-in, "Sort it out!" he should be talking

about the possibility of what could be done. I read a convincing

argument that it shouldn't be Greece coming out of the euro but

Germany, I don't understand the complexities of that too much but I

do understand that austerity is a way of saving bad debts for bankers.

Unemployment in Greece and Spain is 50% for young people keeping those

peoplidele not a way to get growth -- peoplele idle is not a way to

get growth. We should turn our backs on austerity just as Obama

has, as France has, and I hope the people in Wales were thinking of

when they voted Labour. APPLAUSE There is one other solution which

we'll come to in a second. If you are on Twitter tonight, you can

A question, please, from Catherine Smith. In the light of Mervyn

King's comments this week about its negative effect on GDP, should the

Jubilee bank holiday be cans snld According to the Governor of the --

be cancelled? It is in line with a remark that we should all be

working harder made by the Conservative Government, and that's

the way to get growth. Leanne Wood, what do you feel about cancelling

the Jubilee bank holiday? Well, I'm in favour of bank holidays. Ah.

think, I'm not going to be a party pooper. I won't personal I will be

celebrating the Jubilee. I'm a republican and I think the monarchy

is an antiquated institution, but people will want to celebrate. I

recognise that, and I hope that people who will be having street

parties on the day have a good time. So no, I'm not in favour of

cancelling bank holidays. In the UK we are among the -- we have among

the fewest bank holidays in the whole of Europe and my party's been

campaigning for some time for St David's Day to be turned into a

bank holiday. APPLAUSE What about the argument that the way out of

recession and back to growth is for us all to work harder, do you

sympathise with? No, not at all. Most people are doing a number of

jobs in some cases to make ends meet. The times 100 Rich List could

be doing a lot more to contribute to that pot. Maria Miller? It is

right that we celebrate in full the Queen's contribution to this

country. It was Governor of the Bank of England right to point out

that growth will be slowed down as a result of it? I think he is wrong

to say we should not have a holiday to mark this amazing reign. That's

right thing to do. What the Governor of the Bank of England is

really driving at is we can create the conditions for recovery in this

country but we've got to make sure that businesses are working hard to

capitalise on that. I think we have started to see some signs of the

tough decisions starting to pay dividends for us. We've seen

unemployment rates starting to show signs in the right direction. We

have seen the fact that a quarter of the deficit that we were left by

Labour is being paid down. And we've actually saw last year record

numbers of new businesses being set up in this country. But this is not

a time to start to do what other panellists have been talking about

today and start to take on more debt. Now is the time to

consolidate on that. We've got credibility with the money markets.

Our interest rates are now some of the lowest in Europe. That means

everybody in this room doesn't have to worry about their mortgages

going through the roof, but what they can look at is a Government

that has that credibility there to capitalise on this. Eric Pickles

saying we have to work harder and William Hague saying we have to

work harder. Are we not working hard enough in the eyes of the

coalition Government? As a country we will be successful when we

market the best products and services that we can. I know the

companies that I visit that are successful are already doing that.

I think what we need to have are move companies that are taking that

opportunity, and certainly by having the low interest rates that

we've got at the moment we are more likely to be able to achieve that

success in the future. That's why we need to stick to our policies.

We need more jobs and you are closing Remploy factories. We need

more jobs. APPLAUSE Mervyn King's comments are indicative of the fact

we don't have an economic strategy for growth. We've talked a lot

about austerity. We know a the majority of the cuts have not hit

us. I haven't seen anything in the Queen's Speech or day-to-day that

the Conservative Government in London is looking to growth. It

seems there is going to be organic growth from somewhere, from the

private sector. I'm sure there are things that the Government could be

doing but are not doing. Such as infrastructure projects in Wales.

Premier projects that we could look at to drive growth rather than

clinging to austerity. We are absolutely looking at the sorts of

infrastructure projects that you are talking about. The

electification of the money line from Cardiff to London. Currently

the public sector employs about 29% of the Welsh workforce. That's a

mammoth number. How big do they want it to become, 40%, 50%? The

solution to good growth is supply- side reforms, lower income tax.

APPLAUSE This is amazing. Wait! This is the first Conservative I've

ever heard in a Question Time audience. That's rubbish. Peter

I fundamentally disagree with you. You cannot reduce the deficit by

cutting and cutting and cutting and introducing more austerity on

Europe. It means people lose jobs, they draw benefits instead of

spending. In the private sector, by the way, this cannot just be public

sector job-led. When we get to the original question, what this

Government started off doing is blaming Labour for the entire

global financial crisis, then they blamed the weather, now they're

blaming the Queen. Frankly, none of this is true. The fault of the

current double-dip recession, which is Tory /Lib Dem made, not Labour-

made, we are not in power, is the relentless cuts at imposing

austerity and we want investment for growth and jobs including in

the Severn barrage which will be entirely privately invested.

Kelvin MacKenzie? Well, the point that was made on the working harder,

which I wholly accept, is that he was seeking business people to jump

on planes, more regularly to go to the Asian markets, the American

markets. The truth about the matter is that actually, if you want to

make your money in this country, looking to Europe as a businessman

or businesswoman is not a good idea at the moment and actually, if you

look at the - I happened to look at it the other day - if you look at

the number of business people flying to North America is up 15%

in March in BA and 6% up in April. That's where the money is. The

free-wheeling, free booting economies, no welfare, by the way

in China and no welfare, no benefits in India, right, stealing,

well not stealing all our markets, taking all our markets. And if we

don't take advantage of this, then we will go down the pan, we'll end

up like Greece. So, actually, I'm in favour of it. And the truth

about the matter is, we've got the Diamond Jubilee coming up, we've

got the euro 2012, sorry about that, and we have after that the Olympics.

Now you can be absolutely sure, look at your colleagues, your

factories and everything, there'll be lots of reasons why Tom's not in

today, oh, the Government have said don't bother to come to work, the

trains are all packed, you know. We can have all this nonsense and I'm

very fearful. What does matter is earning money and having a job

right now. And I'm fearful that with this combination we are going

to have another rather poor quarter and so I think Mervyn King is

correct and I do believe that Hague, Pickles &co are correct to urge

business people, middle and upper middle business leaders to get out

and get fighting. They work pretty hard at the moment but everybody's

going to have to work harder because nobody's going to have

their pensions paid for if we don't get harder, right. We need private

industry, dramatically clever businesswomen and men to make our

country great, because right now, we are broke. The only way we can

stop talking about austerity is by encouraging business in our country

to get out and win markets. APPLAUSE

I wonder if Kelvin MacKenzie got rabies he'd stop foaming at the

mouth! The idea that working hard, people not working hard enough is

the problem to Britain's economic situation is utterly bizarre and

insulting to all the people who are working very hard. People want jobs,

they want to be in full employment and not part-time employment and

the employment figures that Maria referred to was an increase in

part-time jobs in the most. People want full-time jobs, they want to

bring home a proper wage. I'm chair of Governors at Lambeth Academy in

South London. The idea that the teachers could work any harder is

completely fictitious, the idea that nurses and police officers

could work harder is insulting. If people want a Bank Holiday to

celebrate a national occasion, whatever you think of it, that

should be granted and the implication is always it's the

people at the bottom who are to blame for the problems, it's all

part of the same message and it's your fault this country's in a mess

- it's not, it's the falt fault of the people in the City of London.

He was not talking about the people at the bottom, he was talking about

middle and upper management to get on the planes and win orders to

supply work for the rest of us. He was not talking about the people at

the bottom and managements are to blame for things that go wrong in

our country. The workforce want to do well. Take the car industry for

instance, brilliant car industry, right, workforce were fine, I can

remember when we used to have British cars, why was it no good?

Because they were run by British managements. Now they are run by

Japanese managements and American managements and the like and

suddenly we have a brilliant car industry. It's not the workforce,

but the managements that are to blame.

We'll move on. Viv Huskings, a question from you, please Drug and

alcohol deaths in Wales have increased by 31% in ten years.

Isn't it about time we follow Scotland's minimum price of

alcohol? Scotland has introduced a minimum price of 50p a unit of

alcohol which apparently puts up the price of the cheapest vodka by

about �4 a bottle. That seems to be the main effect of it, and a bit on

beer and things. Should the same thing happen in Wales and indeed in

England? Maria Miller? We have announced that's what we'd like to

do in England. I think the more important thing is, we've got to

make sure that people are aware of the real health impacts of binge

drinking. Nowadays, there are too many people who seem to not be

aware of the long-term health consequences that can result from

drinking too much, even just too much social drinking. I think we

have to make sure that people are really aware of it. Why - because

of the consequences to our public Health Service and, when you go

into an A&E on a Friday or Saturday night, the number of people who're

in there as a result of an injury or a problem that's related to

alcohol, really shows to me that this is putting a huge burden on

the Health Service as well. would it have gone up 30% in ten

years? I think that probably we are recording it more accurately now,

but also people perhaps have more acts is. This is why looking at the

pricing of alcohol is is important but that's only one step in a much

bigger programme to make sure people are aware of the really

powerful effect that these sorts of addictions can have on people's

lives. Indeed, the sort of effect they have on people's ability to

get into employment as well. said you proposed it. When are you

going to do it in England and Wales? That's something we are

looking at at the moment. But when do you think it will be decided?

soon as we have got something which is going to work for all parts of

the country. Peter Hain, do you think it's the right, fair and

proper thing to do? It's useful to look at what is happening in

Scotland and the results. If it's as clear cut as increasing the

price. Looking at kids at home getting drunk at home then going

clubbing or to the pub. In the end, what you need to do - I don't think

you will solve the problems unless you encourage people to be aware,

take control of their own health - that is in the end the solution to

these problems. I don't think that the minimum price level will solve

it on its own. I'll make one other point. The advantage of devolution

is, you can look at what happens elsewhere in Britain. The older

person's commissioner in Wales first, we had the Children's

Commissioner first, free bus passes for pensioners first. Those

policies were followed elsewhere in Britain. If the Scottish case works

well, then I think there's a case for doing it here.

Leanne Wood? Well, there is a chronic alcohol problem in Scotland.

It isn't as bad, fortunately in Wales. Something had to be done to

try and address that. The SNP Government would have preferred to

have addressed this by using excise duty and powers over taxation. That

would have been a better way to deal with it I think.

But I think what we've got to recognise is, that as people's

economic problems get worse, the likelihood of these statistics

getting worse grows and there needs to be some sort of plan and

strategy for dealing with that. I know that I worked as a Probation

Officer... People are poorer, are you saying you will put up the

price of alcohol and it will help solve the problem, you say their

economic problems get worse? economic problems get worse, people

are more likely to develop addictive behaviours and I'm aware

of that because of my experience as a Probation Officer being being

elected to the National Assembly. Problems in the valleys that were

caused after the pit closure programme in the '80s, there was a

layer of people who ended up dependent on heroin and there was a

serious problem and there still is with that. There is always a danger

that when economic times are difficult, people will seek to

escape those problems. Do you favour using the price mechanism as

a which of preventing that happening? Yes, that's one way of

doing it. I think you need to look wider than that as well. It's one

way you would approve of? Yes, alcohol is one problem, other

substances are problems as well and there needs to be a plan and

strategy for dealing with what will be a growing problem I think.

APPLAUSE Surely unless there is a massive

cultural shift this won't change because there will be people who'll

find other ways to get around the expensive praises. I went to

Estonia a couple of years ago and the Finnish people were getting the

ferry to Estonia to take bottles and cans over to the home country.

People will find ways to get around this. What worries me is if other

substances become cheaper and people opt to use those instead.

That's a concern I think. You, Sir?

Let's look at the bare facts here. As an 18-year-old, we wait for the

weekends, we party and alcohol is a part of our lifestyle. Raising the

price isn't going to solve that because we are going to save up

more and pay for that. I think solving the problem is with the

cultural side of it. The more we think of what we do with it, how we

use it and how it affects our future. Education in alcohol is how

we solve this problem. APPLAUSE I'm someone who likes a

drink but I've got to the age where I feel a bit old for binge drinking.

If I had a bottle of tequila, I would want to go to sleep. It

doesn't take much alcohol to make you feel pleasuribly relaxed. A

couple of pints should be sufficient for anyone. The idea

that this whole cultural thing that the gentleman referred to about

front loading and getting really drunk before you go to a party or

the pub is something we do have to attack. I am in favour of hiking

the prices in the smarbgts and the places where alcohol is too cheap.

-- supermarkets. It breaks my heart to see pubs closing around Britain,

50 a week I think we are losing. I went past a pub the other day, now

it's a McDonald's, my father would turn in his grave if he saw that.

In a pub, your drinking is monitored, the landlord says, you

have had enough, it's a social thing, it's not this thing about

stacking up the supermarket trolley. Our pubs are closing partly because

duties are laid massively on them and in supermarkets they're cheaper.

The duty in pubs has gone up 30% in the last three years, no wonder

they are closing. I would like to see responsible drinking in pubs

and ramp up the price in supermarkets so people couldn't get

the cut prices. You have to go to the pub, you can't drink at home?

just think the difference, as John was saying, is far too great.

The man with the spectacles? Do you think this policy could lead to a

lot of illicit alcohol being sold and the detrimental health to the

people? Alcohol made at home? made some home-made whisky once as

a student. I think they should be concentrating on the health issues.

I don't know whether you have seen the numbers about throat cancers

and the lake which have simply gone off the dial because of excessive

drinking. I'm not sure that they could price - my manner in the

South East and London - I'm not sure that they could price alcohol

to the point where it would actually stop people from

continuing to drink excessively. On that basis, the only other way to

lack at this is a massive health drive sponsored by the Government

in that respect -- look at this. If you see the way they've been

successfully done in relation to cigarette smoking, I believe people

would be bright enough to work out, I don't want to have throat cancer

or cirrhosis of the liver or I don't want to have this. The

parents could lane on the children. I mean, the truth about the matter

is that the kids actually, because of guilty parents, my little Tommy,

giving them money so they can go out and get plastered on Friday and

Saturday night, they've got to take responsibility as well. Young

people have always been drinking but what you are starting to see

now is that it's not ending at 24 or 26, it's going on to the 30s,

40s and 50s. Education is the answer and I don't believe you

could price drink heavily enough in most of the country to stop

excessive drinking. That's my reality.

I want to go on to get another couple of questions in if I can. I

would like to two to this one from Andrew Curry, please?

Are relations between the media and politicians becoming inappropriate?

Becoming inappropriate? This is of course in the light of the lier.

Peter Hain, relations between politicians and the media, are they

inappropriate -- the Leveson Inquiry? The phone hacking and the

disgraceful behaviour of some newspapers that did that has

brought this into sharp focus. I think probably that was the case,

but actually much more fundamentally, I think there is a

real problem about the Westminster bubble, if you like, politicians

and journalists in the same bubble operating in their close little

world chasing each other around, a lot of spin on both sides and it's

completely turning off most people from politics and democracy, in my

view. I think that's the real problem. What turns them off

exactly? Because everything's about a personality angle, a bit of spin

here, talking a story on. People want intelligent debate, like we

get on Question Time, to be fair, where people put their views, then

the audience or voters make up their minds. Often the din of spin

andageles and new takes on everything means people turn off

politics. That's the real problem that we have created in Westminster,

the media and politicians together. If we don't solve it, it's a really

serious future for democracy,? My view. Do you think the newspapers

are no longer providing a check and balance system on their behaviour,

Have you been listening to Leveson? I find it very addictive. For

somebody who is supposed to be self employed I've had it on all this

week. I wish I did Rebekah Brooks's mobile number, because I would have

texted her LOL. LAUGHTER The fact that Cameron was texting her and

they were borrowing each other's horses, and it is across the

parties. I'm a member of the Labour Party and it embarrasses me deeply

that Tony Blair was so close to Rupert Murdoch. We have to have

polices who are not in thrall to editors of tab loids or any

newspapers. This whole thing has been galling and rather depressing.

An expose of where the real power is. They were so terrified of the

Mail and the Sun turning against Labour, and they were never Labour

papers anyway. I take that barks as Labour was once -- I take that back,

as Labour was once in favour of the Sun. The idea that you should be

courting those people rather than winning debates on programmes like

Newsnight and on the doorstep, that you should spend your time chasing

Kelvin MacKenzie or Rebekah Brooks, I hope we can move on and have a

new chapter of more open politics in this country. APPLAUSE

I do hope they call Kelvin as a character witness if Rebekah Brooks

goes to trial. I've given my undertaking in that area. The

original question was are rulingss appropriate between politicians and

the media? -- relations. Radio is the media, television is the media,

Twitter is the media. Print, which has the focus on it right now, is

getting smaller, but carries politics more deeply, especially

from the middle and upper end of it. And it is interesting.

Personalities, unfortunate, are the most interesting. You're much more

interested in somebody's family life and what comes forward from

that. And newspapers help create that atmosphere to get to know them.

That's all it is. And you have the choice. You don't have to buy these

papers. You don't have to turn on the twifplgts you don't have to do

any of -- the television sets. You don't have to do any of this. When

the Leveson report comes out they'll beef up the Press

Complaints Commission, and I don't see this will make a great change.

Cabinet Ministers will still brief political editors. Political

editors will still write page one and page two stories about their

friends in a friendly way and their enemies in an unfriendly way. We

are just going through a choppy period and we will come through it,

in the same way as MPs have come through their period with

experiences, so will journalists. Is it appropriate for prime

ministers to be texting journalists, and we don't know what the texts

were about, because they weren't released by News International. You

had a bet that Cameron will be gone by November, at 10-1, is that true?

Yes. Why only 10-1. 100-1. I had 10-1 that Cameron would be gone by

the end of November. I believed, either rightly or wrongly, that

more could come out through Leveson over texts and inappropriate e-

mails in that period and that if they did what would happen was that

Cameron would become a lame duck Prime Minister. And the Tories, and

I admire them for it works crack him out. Tell us what was going to

come out in the. I don't know what's going to come out. I think

if, I said to Jeremy Hunt once that I was absolutely appalled that the

Tories had clapped Tony Blair when he sat down after ten years of

being Prime Minister of our country. I said I was astonished and asked

why do you do it? Hunt said you don't understand, Blair was our

Clinton. The Tories loved what Blair did. And he did assiduously

arse licked the Murdoch press. Cameron and Co on seeing the way

this was done said, "We must do the same" and the music stopped, with

Leveson. Maria Miller, do you want to come to the defence of Cameron

and the relationship between him and Murdoch? Does he say LOL to

you? No. I think that it is right to Shea that all parties got too

close to the media and the action we've taken by establishing the

Leveson qir I have long overdue. -- inquiry is long overdue. Everybody

who is looking at political parties, whether it is the mainstream

parties represented here tonight, for marginal parties, the media has

an important role to play in informing the didn't. My concern is

that the level of trust in the media has been so undermined by all

of the processs that have gone on in recent years that really now we

should be turning our minds to how we rebuild that trust. I do believe

the media has a critical role to play in our society. As a

journalism student, it is something that is worrying to me whether at

the end of my degree there'll be such a stigma between politicians

and journalists that maybe the ultimate and important news isn't

going to be portrayed so easily, because there is going to be such a

large barrier between the relationships. What do you expect?

I agree that it's too close at the moment, that the texting and so on

is too much, but there still has to be an easy way so that you can get

the truth rather than having to go through the back door and therefore

it is not easiest truth coming out first. Leanne Wood, as leader of

Plaid Cymru, who are you courting and texting? I hope not using LOL

in the wrong sense. I can tell you that I'm not working closely with

Murdoch. You said all political parties have been involved in this.

Plaid Cymru hasn't. You are right to point out that Labour did it too.

I wonder if that's because in 1997 Murdoch looked at Tony Blair and

thought that he wasn't that different from the Conservatives,

so he was somebody that he could work with. But I think the Leveson

Inquiry... Do you think the Tories would have introduced devolution or

a minimum wage in of course they wouldn't. Labour were very

different from the Tories. You are very relaxed about rich people.

brought in tax credits, took millions out of poverty. The Tories,

Te d Heath wanted devolution for Scotland. As print media is

becoming smaller and the Murdoch media is no longer available, is

the BBC new expected to become the new Tory mouthpiece with March

Boris Johnson saying it needs to be a mouthpiece for the Tories. It is

unlikely that the BBC would become a mouthpiece for anyone. A Labour

victory in Wales? I was referring to the Assembly elections. The

amount of coverage is very stark. APPLAUSE

It wasn't a Boris Johnson solo. was to do with characters. There

were two strong characters, celebrities. It is depressing that

we've got a part-time clown as Mayor of London rather than proper

politicians like we have in Wales. The woman waving her fingers at me,

I nope a nice way. I wondered whether there was something in the

ownership of the papers and some of the television stations. I'm

thinking that perhaps Rupert Murdoch was allowed to own too many

papers and to become too powerful. Maybe that needs to be restricted.

I want to do this one as it is very much of the moment. David Gareth

Evans, please. With the Olympic torch coming to Cardiff next week

why should Wales get excited about London's Games? APPLAUSE

Brief answers please. Because some of the football is happening in

Cardiff, right here. You're going to have events in Wales. London is

a world class city. The Manchester bid for the Games was pathetic.

London is up there with New York, Moscow and Paris and the great

cities of the world. Cardiff is a great city. Manchester is a great

city but they are not world class cities and it is right that the

British bid came from London. What's great is you're going to

have football here. Britain is doing well in the small bore rifle

shooting. I'm looking forward to that. Maria Miller? Well, the

Olympics and the Paralympics will be a showcase for some great

British talent, great Welsh talent, great English talent and great

Scottish talent. Amazing athletes and we should get behind them. The

Olympics and the ploirs will be something that we can be really

proud of. -- Paralympics. Peter Hain? Because we in Wales are not

some small-minded nationalist enclave concerned only about

ourselves. We are proud for part of Britain and we were

internationalists. This is a celebration of international

competition. APPLAUSE Leanne Wood? I hope that the legacy of the

Olympics for Wales will mean that the money that was money diverted

from grass roots organisations to pay for the lorry Olympics will

come back. We are talking about public health, people being

involved in exercise at a community level that. Needs to be funded to

reduce obesity levels. I hope the legacy will be proper funding for

sport and activities. Kelvin MacKenzie? 30 seconds. I'm hoping

to turn to drink as we all join in cheering home our various medal

winners. It is going to be fantastic. Bizarrely you will get

caught up even in the curling. You will enjoy it. OK. APPLAUSE

Our time's up. Next week we are going to be in King's Lynn. Griff

Rhys Jones, the broadcaster and comedian, will be on the panel.

There'll be four other people but I don't know who the hell they are at

the moment. The week that have the moment. The week that have

we'll be in Rugby. My thanks to all of you sitting on the panel and to