11/10/2012 Question Time


11/10/2012

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 11/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

By good evening. Question Time tonight is in Birmingham. -- good

:00:12.:00:16.

evening. And a big welcome to our audience

:00:16.:00:22.

and to our panel, Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps,

:00:22.:00:25.

shadow energy secretary, Caroline Flint, deputy leader of the Liberal

:00:25.:00:29.

Democrats, Simon Hughes, Daily Telegraph columnist, Christina

:00:29.:00:39.
:00:39.:00:49.

Odone. And poet and author, Thank you. Our first question from

:00:49.:00:54.

Des Michael Duff. Is the BBC's reputation about to be blown away

:00:54.:00:59.

by the Jimmy Saville debacle? the BBC's reputation about to be

:00:59.:01:06.

blown away by the Jimmy Saville debacle? Grant Shapps. This has

:01:06.:01:09.

been very, very concerning in the last week or two as this has come

:01:09.:01:12.

out. What is incredible is that this is something which appears to

:01:12.:01:17.

have taken place not just over the last few years, but over four

:01:17.:01:21.

decades, which means a lot of people must have been aware. And

:01:21.:01:26.

now it turns out there are 30 cases the police have said have come

:01:26.:01:29.

forward. Day-by-day, it seems unimaginable that people within the

:01:29.:01:34.

BBC did not know. There was that Newsnight report put together, but

:01:34.:01:38.

not dead, apparently because there was about to be a programme with

:01:38.:01:42.

three separate airings of a programme paying tribute to Jimmy

:01:42.:01:47.

Saville's life. -- it was not dead. I think the BBC knows there are

:01:47.:01:50.

questions to be answered. That is why the chairman, Chris Patten,

:01:50.:01:54.

came out yesterday, fairly firmly saying that somebody independent

:01:54.:01:59.

should be appointed to look at this. Absolutely agree that what happens

:01:59.:02:04.

it is to have been absolutely outrageous. -- what happened.

:02:04.:02:09.

are the issues for the BBC's reputation? Is it the broadcast of

:02:09.:02:11.

the celebratory programmes about Jimmy Saville when they knew that

:02:11.:02:14.

Newsnight had been interviewing people who alleged they had been

:02:15.:02:20.

abused? Or is it that nobody within the BBC over 40 years of the said,

:02:20.:02:24.

I think something is going wrong? think it is disturbing when you

:02:24.:02:27.

hear the number of people who have come forward from within and

:02:27.:02:30.

outside the BBC and have said, I knew something, I suspected

:02:30.:02:35.

something, or why was one of the victims in this. I think it is

:02:35.:02:38.

particularly disturbing that a programme paying tribute, a three-

:02:38.:02:43.

part programme, went out, three different programmes, just last

:02:43.:02:49.

Christmas, wasn't it, after it was already known that something was

:02:49.:02:53.

wrong, enough to have had a serious Newsnight programme made about it,

:02:53.:02:58.

and enough to have raised serious concerns. I think we need to know

:02:58.:03:02.

who knew what and when, and there are definitely questions that

:03:02.:03:07.

needed answering. Christina Odone. One of the biggest shocks is that

:03:07.:03:10.

it happened at the heart of the liberal establishment, in the

:03:10.:03:17.

hallowed halls of the BBC, which is cherished and trusted and respected.

:03:17.:03:24.

We are so comfortable and cosy with the BBC that we call her auntie. I

:03:24.:03:30.

think there were two levels of trust betrayed. One was by Jimmy

:03:30.:03:35.

Saville and his victims, young, under-age girls and I think one boy.

:03:35.:03:40.

But also us, the licence fee payers. And we feel we have been taken for

:03:40.:03:47.

a ride. And I think one of the interesting things is that BBC

:03:47.:03:53.

programme makers were very vicious and thorough in their condemnation

:03:53.:04:00.

of the Catholic church when they have their own gross child abuse

:04:00.:04:05.

scandals. And I think in fact what we could do is for the BBC to learn

:04:05.:04:12.

from the way that the Catholic Church mishandled its dealings of

:04:12.:04:18.

the child abuse cover-up, and we should have a very prompt and

:04:18.:04:22.

independent investigation. We should have a very public apology,

:04:22.:04:29.

not only by Chris Patten but by a the director general of the BBC.

:04:29.:04:34.

And we should have compensation for the victims, and a thorough clean-

:04:34.:04:39.

up of what looks like very filthy practices. And do you think that is

:04:39.:04:44.

happening, or do you think the BBC is dragging its feet? I think it

:04:44.:04:47.

has dragged its feet. Already we can say we should have already had

:04:47.:04:55.

a thorough clean-up of what has happened. The the question I have

:04:55.:05:03.

is, it is all well and good for the BBC with Jimmy Saville. What is the

:05:03.:05:06.

reputation of the various charities that he was associated with? Surely

:05:06.:05:14.

they will be tarnished with the same brush. Will there be something

:05:14.:05:18.

dumb thugs something done by which their charities Association can be

:05:18.:05:23.

moved away, because they'd may well lose donations because of

:05:23.:05:28.

association with him. Do you think it was a surprise to the hospitals

:05:28.:05:36.

where he worked? Without a doubt. In the back row. Should he not

:05:36.:05:43.

immediately lose his title? Should he lose his title? Benjamin

:05:43.:05:47.

Zephaniah. I think they are considering taking the title from

:05:47.:05:53.

him. I must say, when the story first broke, this is a bit of a

:05:53.:06:00.

confession. I jumped off the city and I said, I knew it. Seriously. I

:06:00.:06:03.

saw the documentary where somebody asked him about his feelings, and

:06:03.:06:07.

he had no feelings for anybody. They asked him if he could love

:06:07.:06:12.

anybody and he said, What Is Love? He had no emotional intelligence at

:06:12.:06:17.

all. He did not seem to care about anybody. I remember thinking, that

:06:17.:06:21.

is a very dangerous person. But it was a private thought and I could

:06:21.:06:28.

never have said that. He was raising millions for charities. I

:06:28.:06:31.

remember first going into the Catholic Herald and being told,

:06:31.:06:37.

there is this saint called Jimmy. And they will all bowled over by

:06:37.:06:44.

how brilliant he was, -- they were all bowled over. How he was

:06:44.:06:46.

tireless in his devotion to charities, especially charities

:06:46.:06:53.

dealing with young children. I have to say, I went through the

:06:53.:06:57.

children's homes. I knew kids who were abused. I never was. But at

:06:57.:07:00.

night I had to sometimes try to stop children from getting out of

:07:00.:07:07.

bed in the middle of the night and going to meet members of staff. And

:07:07.:07:11.

I remember a kid crying in front of me, begging me to let him go to be

:07:11.:07:16.

abused because he was so scared. And this addresses the point you

:07:16.:07:21.

have just raised. When we put people on a pedestal, and we beat

:07:21.:07:25.

them up so much, and Jimmy Saville was basically the BBC man through

:07:25.:07:30.

and through. They just become untouchable. And they can do good

:07:30.:07:33.

things in the community. Many people who abuse children do good

:07:33.:07:36.

things in the community. They do football, church, all of those

:07:36.:07:42.

things, to have access to these young people. So we put them on a

:07:42.:07:47.

pedestal and they become untouchable. Last night, my mother

:07:47.:07:50.

said, I don't believe anything like this about Jimmy Saville, I think

:07:50.:07:55.

he is a good man because of the good things he has done. What about

:07:55.:08:02.

the BBC's reputation? I remember in the 1980s going into an office in

:08:02.:08:06.

the BBC. If I could remember the person, I would say. This person

:08:06.:08:11.

was waiting to get a secretary. I said, what is she like? He said, I

:08:11.:08:16.

do not care, as long as she has big breasts. There was a culture at the

:08:16.:08:20.

time that allow that kind of thing and they just got away with it.

:08:20.:08:26.

the second row from the back. think there is something of a nasty

:08:26.:08:29.

taste to be left by the fact that if this investigation is to be

:08:29.:08:34.

pursued, basically we live in a society where everybody remains

:08:34.:08:37.

innocent until proven guilty and has the right to be tried in a

:08:37.:08:41.

court of law, that if the BBC is going to be seen to be supporting

:08:41.:08:46.

this, it is going to set a precedent to bring postern has

:08:46.:08:51.

convictions and allegations against other people have passed away, and

:08:51.:08:59.

the trauma that will cause to their families. -- posthumous convictions.

:08:59.:09:02.

It is not like he will be tried in a court of law because he is dead.

:09:02.:09:05.

The problem is every single day there are more people coming

:09:05.:09:09.

forward with things they witnessed, or happened to them. I do not think

:09:09.:09:13.

we can avoid that, or ignore it. As far as the reputation of the BBC,

:09:13.:09:18.

there are two aspects. One, still to get to the bottom of why the

:09:18.:09:22.

Newsnight report was squashed and the reasons for that. The second

:09:22.:09:26.

part of it is about looking at the BBC as an institution, and

:09:26.:09:29.

reflecting on whether there is more they should have done during that

:09:29.:09:36.

period. I am not just talking about Jimmy Saville. Liz Kershaw, the

:09:36.:09:40.

radio DJ, recounted that when she was broadcasting, male colleagues

:09:40.:09:43.

would literally come to her and put their hands on her breasts while

:09:43.:09:47.

she was broadcasting and could do nothing about it. When she raised

:09:47.:09:51.

it, she was told, that is part of what it is like, that is just what

:09:51.:09:56.

you have to put up with. There is an issue about addressing that.

:09:56.:10:00.

Wider in the BBC, it is recognising about when we put people on a

:10:00.:10:04.

pedestal. But also within institutions, whether a church

:10:04.:10:07.

institution, school, children's home, politics, the media,

:10:07.:10:12.

hospitals, wherever, how do we protect the most vulnerable in

:10:12.:10:16.

those institutions? And we don't allow the powerful to basically

:10:16.:10:20.

take complete liberties with the power that they have got. I think

:10:20.:10:24.

that is important. To bring it up to date, let's not believe this is

:10:24.:10:29.

something in the past. We have seen those young girls who were groomed

:10:29.:10:32.

into prostitution, and they raised their voice and the police did not

:10:32.:10:35.

listen to them, people did not listen in the community. Every day,

:10:35.:10:40.

they are women and men facing sexual harassment at work in

:10:40.:10:42.

different situations and often they are fearful of saying anything

:10:42.:10:46.

because they think they will be ridiculed and told they are too

:10:46.:10:50.

politically correct. It is here today. Maybe not the same as in the

:10:50.:10:54.

1980s, but it is here today, people feeling powerless when they are in

:10:54.:10:57.

a position where people more powerful than them keep them from

:10:57.:11:07.
:11:07.:11:08.

raising their voice. We also have to question why so few

:11:08.:11:13.

people came forward. What does it say about society that they stayed

:11:13.:11:17.

silent for so long? And if they did come for, why were they not

:11:17.:11:24.

listened to? Simon Hughes. extraordinary thing is that

:11:24.:11:29.

apparently nobody went to the police over 40 years. I find that

:11:29.:11:35.

almost unbelievable. If somebody ever did go to the police and that

:11:35.:11:39.

comes up, that raises another set of really serious issues. Of course,

:11:40.:11:44.

there is a BBC issue, because a public broadcaster has an

:11:44.:11:47.

obligation to warn of the people who come to work for it and who, as

:11:47.:11:53.

visitors, to make sure that they are respected and not abused. -- it

:11:53.:11:56.

has a responsibility to all of the people. It is not going to be

:11:56.:12:00.

hampered in this case by a criminal prosecution because the man is dead,

:12:00.:12:03.

so they do not have to wait for the police, the CPS and all of these

:12:03.:12:09.

people. So the BBC can get on with things. But I have one equally big

:12:09.:12:13.

concern. Jimmy Saville appeared to go into hospital on a regular basis

:12:13.:12:15.

and other public sector institutions where there were

:12:15.:12:19.

honourable people. That, for me, is as worrying, that he apparently

:12:19.:12:26.

went about his illegal and disgraceful business there, and of

:12:26.:12:30.

their there were not complaints made, pursued or followed up. And

:12:30.:12:35.

the one place where everybody in this room would want people to be

:12:35.:12:38.

secured are the children's homes and the hospitals in our country,

:12:38.:12:43.

run by the state. We have to make sure schools and hospitals are

:12:43.:12:46.

safeguarded institutions. If they have failed, there is a serious

:12:46.:12:56.
:12:56.:12:59.

issue about Leeds hospital, Stoke Somebody raised the point about the

:12:59.:13:05.

knighthood. Those expire when someone dies. I would be in favour

:13:05.:13:08.

of the forfeiture committee taking a close look at this because it

:13:08.:13:12.

cannot be right but somebody apparently keeps the title in front

:13:12.:13:18.

of their name when this is the reality of their lives. A couple

:13:18.:13:27.

more brief points. I like solutions rather than problems, so how do we

:13:27.:13:31.

move on and make sure this does not happen again? I think Jimmy

:13:31.:13:34.

Saville's celebrity status is a problem. He managed to get into

:13:34.:13:39.

these places and do this under that umbrella. I think the public sector

:13:39.:13:43.

needs support in ensuring that no matter what state as a person has,

:13:43.:13:48.

with any manager, is a liberty, a footballer, that they have the

:13:48.:13:52.

support to be able to whistle blower and talk and people will

:13:52.:14:00.

believe them. One more point. watching something on the BBC this

:14:00.:14:05.

morning, an interview with a lady that was saying, making an

:14:05.:14:09.

allegation against him. She said she told her parents and they shrug

:14:09.:14:14.

it off, he would not do that. I think there are serious issues with

:14:14.:14:18.

parents saying to a child that that would not happen. Something needs

:14:18.:14:28.
:14:28.:14:41.

We followed the example of David Cameron in one thing and we've

:14:41.:14:43.

Cameron in one thing and we've started tweeting this week, like he

:14:43.:14:50.

says he has. We now have a Twitter panellist.

:14:50.:14:54.

Tonight the columnist is Toby Young. If you do tweet, you will know what

:14:55.:15:00.

I'm talking about. If you don't, you can remain the blissful

:15:00.:15:05.

ignorance. Another question, from ignorance. Another question, from

:15:05.:15:08.

Laura Howard, please. Is George Osborne discriminating against the

:15:08.:15:14.

under 25s with his proposal to remove housing benefits? Benjamin

:15:14.:15:22.

Zephaniah, is it unwarranted discrimination? I think it is

:15:22.:15:26.

discrimination and very dangerous. What happens when you take away the

:15:26.:15:31.

benefit of these people. You are going to push them back into the

:15:31.:15:35.

homes where some were abused, you are going to push them on to the

:15:35.:15:41.

street. We are just forcing them to go into situations which they don't

:15:41.:15:46.

want to go in. Nobody wants, well, I believe very few people are

:15:46.:15:50.

people that want to just live off benefits for the sake of it. Young

:15:50.:15:55.

people, especially now, need a hand. We can't keep putting pressure on

:15:55.:16:00.

them to go out and get jobs, when there are no jobs. You can't push

:16:00.:16:06.

people into the swimming pool when you have taken the water out of the

:16:06.:16:14.

swimming pool. APPLAUSE What the Government was trying to do was

:16:14.:16:17.

save �1.8 billion I think in housing benefit, and this was one

:16:17.:16:21.

of the ways of doing it. Grant Shapps. This is a proposal for the

:16:21.:16:26.

future. It is not something for right now. This is as a result of

:16:26.:16:30.

the difficult spending environment, there needs to be savings in future.

:16:30.:16:36.

Sorry, does it make it different that it is for the future? No, it

:16:36.:16:43.

is that figure is not now, it is for the future, �10 million from

:16:43.:16:49.

the benefits bill. The benefits and pension is �200 billion. One pound

:16:49.:16:53.

in three that the Government spends in this country. It is an enormous

:16:53.:16:57.

amount and can't go unchecked forever there. Has to come a point

:16:57.:17:00.

where if you are a young person and you have studied and you are

:17:01.:17:05.

probably now at home living back at home and you're working, you are

:17:05.:17:08.

probably saving up for that first flat. You are probably not going to

:17:08.:17:14.

do it by the time you are 25. What we are saying is if you are not in

:17:14.:17:19.

work you shouldn't be in an advantage because you are on

:17:19.:17:22.

welfare rather than in work. Somebody has to pick up the tab for

:17:22.:17:29.

this and it's the taxpayer who is having to pick up the tab for

:17:29.:17:33.

taxpayers for people who have to live at home and carry on working.

:17:33.:17:38.

There'll be exemptions, people who've come out of care and people

:17:38.:17:42.

with other troubled backgrounds will be exempt. But I do think it

:17:42.:17:48.

is right on the balance of fairness to all, that we do check the

:17:48.:17:58.
:17:58.:17:59.

welfare bill and don't let it rise inexorably. Giving charitable aid,

:17:59.:18:03.

charity should begin at home. We need to look at the elderly, the

:18:03.:18:08.

aged, and instead of trying to take money away from them. Look at what

:18:08.:18:14.

we are spending overseas. Not everybody else jumps up and sends

:18:14.:18:18.

their troops abroad or donates tens of billions. Are you against any

:18:18.:18:22.

cuts in the welfare bill? We need to be prudent at the moment,

:18:22.:18:26.

because of the economic state. However, it seems to be we are

:18:26.:18:31.

always penalising those with the least amount, and that's wrong.

:18:31.:18:41.

APPLAUSE OK. Can I go back to Grant Shapps and say how he thinks it is

:18:41.:18:44.

fair that my grandparents and parents have paid tax all their

:18:44.:18:48.

lives it is not against me not to be allowed to have benefits when a

:18:48.:18:54.

European family from the EU can have those same benefits but I'm

:18:54.:18:59.

having mine taken from me? How is that not discrimination? APPLAUSE

:18:59.:19:04.

My view is this should be fair on everyone. On the aid budget point,

:19:04.:19:09.

I think it is �10 billion. The welfare budget is �200 billion.

:19:09.:19:14.

It's a huge budget and it has gone up and up. We can't go on spending

:19:14.:19:24.

�1 in �3 on welfare. I don't want you to be in a disadvantaged person.

:19:24.:19:30.

A young person watching this probably can't afford to buy their

:19:30.:19:34.

own house. This is about fairness to the taxpayer as a whole. Your

:19:34.:19:37.

parents are having to go out and earn the money. We don't want to

:19:37.:19:41.

put people in a better position when they don't work. The answer of

:19:41.:19:46.

course is to have more people in work. That's why it is good that

:19:46.:19:50.

unemployment has been falling in the last six months. Simon Hughes,

:19:50.:19:54.

will the Liberal Democrats oppose this move that was announced at

:19:54.:19:58.

conference? Grant made clear it is not a done deal across the

:19:58.:20:04.

coalition. I, as proposed, would not agree to it. I'm very clear

:20:04.:20:07.

about it, for the reasons that prompted the question. I have a

:20:07.:20:12.

made who works for Centre Point, the charity working with young

:20:12.:20:16.

single people who can't stay at home. I asked him for four figures

:20:16.:20:22.

today. There are 385,000 youngsters under 25 claiming housing benefit.

:20:22.:20:26.

17% are employed. They use it to top up their employment. If they

:20:26.:20:30.

didn't have it, they probably couldn't afford to stay where they

:20:30.:20:35.

are living and they would probably have to give up their work. On that

:20:35.:20:40.

basis it seems unintelligent. 7% are sick or disabled, so they are

:20:40.:20:44.

not going to be able to go to work and the money won't make any

:20:44.:20:48.

difference. Half of them have dependent children. Are you really

:20:48.:20:52.

saying that we should be depriving a 23-year-old mum of the money she

:20:52.:20:57.

needs to keep the roof over the head of her two little ones? Lastly,

:20:57.:21:01.

I'm for collecting more money from the people who are very well off in

:21:01.:21:07.

this country. There are loads of people... APPLAUSE Who still have

:21:07.:21:13.

most of the wealth. 1% of this country own about 15% of the wealth.

:21:13.:21:17.

10% own half the wealth in this country. Come on, if we wanted a

:21:17.:21:21.

society where we pay off our debts and cut the money, let's collect

:21:21.:21:26.

money from people who can afford to pay, not take money from youngsters

:21:26.:21:31.

who are struggling with all the other pressures and trying to bring

:21:31.:21:35.

up their kids and survive. Do you think Nick Clegg will agree with

:21:35.:21:40.

you and make this an issue, a dividing you? The coalition and

:21:40.:21:45.

refuse? Nick does agree with me. Sorry, so the Liberal Democrats

:21:45.:21:50.

phalanx in Government is going to say no? We are have not signed up

:21:50.:21:54.

to cutting housing benefit. won't? I don't imagine for a moment

:21:54.:22:00.

that we will. I will come back to you. Cristina Odone. I think Simon

:22:00.:22:08.

is thinking that Nick is going to stand up to David in a way that he

:22:08.:22:17.

didn't over university fees. APPLAUSE I can't quite see that

:22:17.:22:21.

that one going. But I also think another thing. I think most young

:22:21.:22:27.

people are motivated by a sense of fairness rather than a sense of

:22:27.:22:31.

entitlement. I do agree that it is very hard to be one of the 3

:22:31.:22:36.

million graduates who are forced to go back and live at home, even

:22:36.:22:43.

though they are working really hard, and to know that there's 210,000

:22:43.:22:49.

people between 16 and 24 who automatically got a council home. I

:22:49.:22:56.

think that is very unfair. Cristina, they don't automatically get a

:22:56.:23:01.

council home. They are automatically eligible. No. You are

:23:01.:23:07.

wrong. Single people... I did my homework. Single young adults are

:23:07.:23:11.

not automatically eligible for a council authority in any authority

:23:11.:23:14.

in England. There are lots of automatic eligibility. One of the

:23:14.:23:21.

interesting things is that I've got friends who are between 16 and 24.

:23:21.:23:25.

Most of them my stepson's friends, and they are saying this is not

:23:25.:23:29.

fair. They are also saying, I don't think I'm entitled to have a home

:23:29.:23:36.

of my own the moment I come out of university. Lots and lots of kids

:23:36.:23:43.

are prepared to share rooms, to go back home and live with mum and dad.

:23:44.:23:49.

You're only entitled to the money on a shared room basis up to the

:23:49.:23:55.

age of 35. Honestly, if you are single. Caroline Flint? I'm afraid

:23:55.:24:00.

this is another one of those ill thought through policies on a back

:24:00.:24:03.

of an envelope which is about disguising the fact that their

:24:03.:24:09.

economic plan is failing. APPLAUSE They are having to find �10 billion

:24:09.:24:12.

to plug the gap their deficit plan, because the truth is this year they

:24:12.:24:18.

are having to borrow 22% more. That's about �800 a second more

:24:18.:24:23.

borrowing, because it is failing. They've restricted growth. That's

:24:23.:24:28.

going down to something like minus 0.4% for 2012, the IMF announced

:24:28.:24:32.

that. Clearly with 1 million young people unemployed, if they think

:24:32.:24:37.

this is the answer, it is a joke. As Benjamin said, let's talk about

:24:37.:24:40.

people rather than statistics. An awful lot of these young people

:24:40.:24:45.

have been in situations where they've come out of the care system

:24:45.:24:49.

or are leaving abusive situations at home. A large number are young

:24:49.:24:53.

parents. Some of them are young people who've got on their bike and

:24:53.:24:57.

moved away from home to find work, but because the work is so lowly

:24:57.:25:01.

paid they are having to get supplement with housing benefit is.

:25:01.:25:06.

Issue here shnot this policy. It is to look at the reasons why young

:25:06.:25:13.

people, whether they are parents, young people who've left for work,

:25:13.:25:18.

need housing benefit. Give them the help to get into work and not rely

:25:18.:25:22.

on housing benefit. That's the answer. Both Caroline and I have

:25:23.:25:26.

been Housing Ministers at different times. One of the things that

:25:26.:25:29.

happened under the previous administration, housing benefit

:25:29.:25:36.

itself, the bill itself, doubled. The working poor happened to claim

:25:36.:25:40.

it. Up to �21 billion. I hear what you are saying, that you don't like

:25:40.:25:42.

this future example of how it could be trimmed. But the question is,

:25:43.:25:52.
:25:53.:25:53.

when are you going to agree with even 1 penny off the deficit?

:25:53.:25:58.

That's ridiculous. We said we would halve the deficit over this

:25:58.:26:03.

Parliament and that would include a 12% cut in policing, not 20%. Cuts

:26:03.:26:08.

in the education budget and elsewhere. The truth is your plan

:26:08.:26:12.

by going too far too fast has restricted the economy. You are

:26:12.:26:19.

having to borrow more. You are not way on target. We would be rattling

:26:19.:26:25.

like Greece if today if we carried on. I think again the Government is

:26:25.:26:30.

penalising the most vulnerable, which is the young people. APPLAUSE

:26:30.:26:33.

If you have a deficit from the benefit system you should go back

:26:33.:26:39.

to the bankers and get our money back from them. Your Government put

:26:39.:26:45.

us into this situation. Shouldn't we sort out the

:26:45.:26:48.

unemployment figures before talking about decreasing the welfare

:26:48.:26:54.

budget? How do you mean by sort out? Unemployment figures are far

:26:54.:26:57.

too high to even consider dropping the welfare budget. We've got

:26:57.:27:01.

record unemployment. Why don't we try to get people back into work

:27:01.:27:06.

before taking their benefits away from them without any jobs?

:27:06.:27:10.

APPLAUSE Welfare takes up a lot of spending in the UK at the moment,

:27:10.:27:14.

so it does need to be reviewed, but a lot of people in this country

:27:14.:27:19.

think that those on benefits just sit at home and don't need them.

:27:19.:27:23.

But a large majority of people in this country do need benefits.

:27:23.:27:26.

There should be an education. There's a small minority, there's

:27:26.:27:29.

not the jobs out from, so unemployment does need to be looked

:27:29.:27:33.

at before spending. A lot of people think we can't good out to work, it

:27:33.:27:36.

is better off to get benefits, because that will pay more than the

:27:36.:27:40.

jobs are paying out there. Following from that man's point,

:27:40.:27:44.

you need to target unemployment before you target the cutting

:27:44.:27:47.

spending og welfare. But you also need to make sure that the system

:27:47.:27:51.

doesn't mean that it is better for you not to work. You earn more if

:27:51.:27:57.

you don't work than if you work. That is the problem. I definitely

:27:57.:28:00.

agree with that. It is a social thing as well there. Needs to be

:28:00.:28:03.

education with your parents. If your parents are staying at home

:28:03.:28:07.

and giving the impression that it is better to stay at home because

:28:07.:28:11.

you will earn more, there needs to be education there. And legislation

:28:11.:28:15.

in schools and things where people need to be more aware of this.

:28:15.:28:20.

want to go to another member of the audience. You keep on mentioning

:28:20.:28:25.

that we are all in this together and let's make things fair. So

:28:25.:28:31.

let's start moving to the other end. Mention the mansion tax. Please

:28:31.:28:37.

mention the things about covering up the loophole tax avoidance.

:28:37.:28:41.

Let's look at the other end of address issue, where we can find

:28:41.:28:47.

money and not just focusing on the vulnerable end, the welfare end.

:28:47.:28:53.

Grant Shapps? I agree with you. Simon mentioned how much the

:28:53.:28:58.

wealthy are paid, the top 1% of earners account for almost 30% of

:28:58.:29:01.

all income tax receipts in this country. I absolutely agree with

:29:01.:29:08.

you. Those with the broadest shoulders should bear the largest

:29:08.:29:13.

contribution. You are giving millionaires a �40,000 tax rebate.

:29:13.:29:17.

The mansion tax. This is what's happening. The mansion tax I think

:29:17.:29:23.

would quickly become a homes tax. It boo quickly turn into ordinary

:29:23.:29:27.

homes. It will require the rebanding of everybody's homes.

:29:27.:29:32.

Anyone who has saved hard and worked hard all their lives will

:29:32.:29:39.

suddenly be called having a mansion. It would become a homes tax. As

:29:39.:29:43.

soon as the Inspector gets there and revalues all the homes,

:29:43.:29:47.

everyone watching this will find their homes would be rebanded into

:29:47.:29:50.

paying more. I do agree with you that the wealthiest need to pay the

:29:50.:29:53.

most. They are. Under this Government. Even under the last

:29:53.:30:01.

Budget they ended up paying over �1300 more as a result. While 2

:30:01.:30:05.

million people have taken out of tax entirely and 24 million people

:30:05.:30:09.

are paying less tax as a result of that increase in the tax-free

:30:09.:30:19.
:30:19.:30:27.

The system does not encourage responsibility. A lot of people

:30:27.:30:32.

that I was a school with had a child and got house immediately. At

:30:32.:30:37.

the end of the day, it is out of my pocket, so why should we continue

:30:37.:30:46.

I have no truck with people who think that being on benefits when

:30:46.:30:49.

they are of working age is a choice they should be able to make for

:30:49.:30:53.

life. It is why I said when I was a minister that when we were looking

:30:53.:30:58.

at young people in social housing, or other housing but out of work,

:30:58.:31:03.

we should focus on making sure they got training and education. But

:31:03.:31:06.

also the carrot and stick to say, you have an obligation to find work.

:31:06.:31:11.

I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with his with coming

:31:11.:31:15.

up with a policy that already various Conservative ministers are

:31:15.:31:19.

saying, we have to deal with this group, and it is unravelling the

:31:20.:31:24.

day-by-day, as some answer to issues around welfare reform. It is

:31:24.:31:28.

trying to find an answer to plug a gap in an economic plan which is

:31:28.:31:31.

not working. Talking of welfare reform, I think we should focus on

:31:31.:31:36.

things like fraud. In the last year of the Labour Government, we had

:31:36.:31:39.

the highest success rate in detecting fraud in the benefits

:31:39.:31:43.

system. It is only right to do that, just like we should deal with the

:31:43.:31:48.

fraud at the top of society by bankers and elsewhere. Before we go

:31:48.:31:53.

on, Simon Hughes, do you accept that the mansion tax is a dead duck,

:31:53.:31:57.

now do you have heard what Grant Shapps and George Osborne said at

:31:57.:32:01.

the conference? It looks as if the Tories are not going to agree. We

:32:01.:32:05.

think it is a good policy because houses do not move. You can tax

:32:05.:32:09.

them fairly quickly. You are going to end up agreeing on less and less

:32:09.:32:14.

as the parliament goes on. Coalition, by definition, is a

:32:14.:32:17.

coming together of different parties. We have agreed on lots of

:32:17.:32:21.

good things. We agreed on taking lots of people out of tax. We

:32:21.:32:25.

agreed on increases to the state pension, really important. There

:32:25.:32:30.

are things we disagree on. I want more wealth taxes, people to pay a

:32:30.:32:34.

mansion tax. But that does not mean to say, to pick up the gentleman at

:32:34.:32:37.

the back, or that I do not want people who are striving to be

:32:37.:32:41.

encouraged. My mum and dad married on no money in the bank at all. My

:32:41.:32:48.

dad got up at 4am to going brew beer, he was ace driver. Thug he

:32:48.:32:54.

was striving. My uncle ran a chemist's shop, he got up every

:32:54.:32:57.

morning and ran his own business all his life to make sure he had an

:32:57.:33:03.

income for him and his daughters and his wife. I am certain we do

:33:03.:33:08.

not want to DIS incentivise people for working instead of not working.

:33:08.:33:12.

If you cannot help youngsters, who may not have run at home, may have

:33:12.:33:16.

fallen out of their parents. There are all sorts of reasons why kids

:33:16.:33:19.

cannot be at home. If you do not hold them, you are more likely to

:33:19.:33:24.

have a generation that do not work. The if you show them compassion,

:33:24.:33:28.

you make them strive and turn them into a success and have them not on

:33:29.:33:37.

the dole. I am clear about that. You in the T-shirt. Briefly.

:33:37.:33:41.

think there is a large focus on the top earners being taxed and that is

:33:41.:33:46.

correct and needs to be addressed 100%. But there is a point that has

:33:46.:33:51.

been sadly ignored, although it might be unpopular with some people.

:33:51.:33:55.

There is a large percentage of his country that works in trade and

:33:55.:33:58.

other occupations that is consistently paid in cash.

:33:58.:34:04.

Consistently. And degeneration of funds that could be generated from

:34:04.:34:09.

that sector itself is enormous. -- the generation. And the fact that

:34:09.:34:15.

it is ignored it, and we are cutting housing for young people,

:34:15.:34:25.

think it is nonsense. Why is it not addressed? And you, sir. Why are

:34:25.:34:28.

young people, just starting out in life, being turned into the biggest

:34:28.:34:37.

victims of this financial crisis? The changes to tuition fees, the

:34:37.:34:44.

removal of the EMA, the potential threat to working tax credit. These

:34:44.:34:48.

are talented, brilliant young people feeling absolutely hopeless.

:34:48.:34:52.

There is that 17% that Simon mention, those that are in work who

:34:52.:34:56.

are young who could, if they lose housing benefit, become even more

:34:56.:35:00.

hopeless. They are those striving for work who, without housing

:35:00.:35:04.

benefit, could become even more hopeless. There is a hopeless

:35:04.:35:07.

generation already and the ironic thing is that it was not their

:35:07.:35:13.

greed and carelessness that put us in his place in the first place.

:35:13.:35:23.
:35:23.:35:26.

Where is it written that at the age of 24 you should have your own

:35:26.:35:31.

flat? On the Continent, nobody, but nobody dreams of that, except for

:35:31.:35:36.

the children of millionaires. And certainly not at the expense of the

:35:36.:35:41.

state. In fact, we have just come back from Rome, where there was a

:35:41.:35:44.

whole street of cars parked with newspaper on the cars because these

:35:44.:35:48.

were young people having it off, because at home they have mum and

:35:48.:35:58.
:35:58.:35:58.

dad. And that is what happens. Having what off? They cannot have a

:35:58.:36:02.

private life at home because they are living with their parents, and

:36:02.:36:08.

that is taken completely for granted. Gopinath! Enough,

:36:08.:36:18.
:36:18.:36:28.

I know, I have seen that. Seriously, as the lay person on here, it is

:36:28.:36:33.

interesting listening to everybody bandying figures about. But, Grant

:36:33.:36:37.

Shapps, you have to understand that no matter how you spinet, in this

:36:37.:36:43.

week of your conference, to young people out there, the world looks

:36:43.:36:46.

exactly like that man was saying. The young people are being bashed,

:36:46.:36:52.

and they did not have anything at all to do with this economic crisis.

:36:52.:36:56.

I would say one thing to those young people, we are on the side of

:36:56.:36:59.

the vast majority of young people who are working hard and try to get

:36:59.:37:02.

on in life. They need a break and I think this is the most important

:37:03.:37:06.

issue for them. We need a system which is fair to everybody, not

:37:06.:37:10.

just some. Hillary could win as a radical suggestion that might

:37:10.:37:16.

change things. Should Boris Johnson challenge David Cameron for the

:37:16.:37:24.

leadership of the Tory party? Benjamin Zephaniah. Would that

:37:25.:37:33.

changed everything? Do you see any of Boris Johnson? I think not. I

:37:33.:37:37.

cannot believe I am thinking about who I would prefer to lead the Tory

:37:37.:37:47.
:37:47.:37:47.

party. Boris Johnson said the Chinese... Thinking about our

:37:47.:37:52.

relationship with people abroad. He said the Chinese have no culture.

:37:52.:37:56.

This ancient culture, that goes back for thousands of years, and

:37:56.:38:01.

their culture is based on copying Western culture. He calls black

:38:01.:38:05.

people pick enemies. He said the problem with Africa is that the

:38:05.:38:13.

British are not there. He may seem like a buffoon, a clown, but he is

:38:13.:38:23.
:38:23.:38:25.

a very, very dangerous person, in my honest opinion. In London, there

:38:25.:38:28.

was an annual festival called Respect, which is bringing young

:38:28.:38:32.

people together with music and poetry and everything else. One of

:38:32.:38:35.

the first things he did when he got into London was to stop it. He did

:38:35.:38:43.

not want to see that kind of unity. I heard somebody in the Tory

:38:43.:38:50.

conference, a Tory supporter, I think, that really is worth

:38:50.:38:58.

repeating. He said, could you trust Boris with his finger on the

:38:58.:39:04.

nuclear button? It is all right for a joke, but could you trust him

:39:05.:39:10.

with the lives of everybody in Western Europe? I think not.

:39:11.:39:15.

somebody who has to share eight- page with Boris Johnson in the

:39:15.:39:20.

Daily Telegraph on Mondays, I have to say, even I have to look at his

:39:20.:39:23.

column before I look at mine, because he is that witty, that

:39:23.:39:30.

funny, that brilliant. Would I trust him? Forget the finger on the

:39:31.:39:40.
:39:41.:39:43.

thing. Would I trust him in a cab, which I trust him... Would die

:39:43.:39:49.

trust him to be on time? -- would I trust him? He is a force of nature.

:39:49.:39:55.

I think we would never be bored. We would always be on the edge of our

:39:55.:40:01.

seats. We would be laughing a lot. We would be the laughing stock of

:40:01.:40:09.

the world. The Olympics were a pretty impressive event. And Boris

:40:09.:40:19.

was the Mayor of London who made it happen. He did. The point about

:40:19.:40:23.

this question, presumably, was that you saw the reception he got from

:40:23.:40:33.

the Tories. He was a rock star. question is, would the Tory party

:40:33.:40:37.

do better under Boris Johnson as leader? In other words, should he

:40:37.:40:43.

challenge for the sake of the party? No, I think because the Tory

:40:43.:40:47.

party is going through one of the most difficult of economic times,

:40:47.:40:52.

they should stick to their present leader, not have the kind of

:40:52.:41:00.

factionalism, the kind of civil war that would be entailed in a Boris

:41:00.:41:05.

opposition. It is a shame, but let's see what happens next time

:41:05.:41:11.

around. Because the Tory party is so messed-up, Boris looks exotic.

:41:11.:41:17.

Is that what you meant? I do not think they should be a change at

:41:17.:41:23.

the moment. I agree with Christina Odone. I think Boris Johnson is

:41:23.:41:29.

riding on the crest of a wave, in view of the success of the Olympics.

:41:29.:41:34.

I actually think Boris mentioned Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Tessa

:41:34.:41:38.

Jowell, as well as others, in terms of the success of the Olympics, so

:41:38.:41:43.

I do not think you can give it all to Boris on that one. He was

:41:43.:41:49.

generous. He actually was generous in terms of all the people who took

:41:49.:41:55.

part to make the Olympics are a success. Importantly, I would

:41:55.:41:59.

imagine that there is part of me that things when people like Boris,

:41:59.:42:05.

long, you should either put up or shut up, basically, in terms of his

:42:05.:42:10.

challenge. He is clearly a thorn in David Cameron's side. But I think

:42:10.:42:13.

the politics of this, demonstrated this week at the Conservative

:42:13.:42:18.

conference, is that Boris is about being the messenger for more right-

:42:18.:42:22.

wing policies. And what happens in terms of the Tory party when Boris

:42:22.:42:26.

appears, Cameron has to start moving more and more to the right,

:42:26.:42:31.

to feed that need within the Conservative Party. And that is why

:42:31.:42:35.

this week we saw a lot of the things that David Cameron talked

:42:35.:42:40.

about when he was opposition leader, to get into the centre ground, to

:42:40.:42:43.

take the nasty out of conservatism, that was very much given a low

:42:43.:42:46.

profile against other policies like the one we have just discussed, to

:42:46.:42:50.

show that they are on the right of British politics. Boris, David

:42:50.:42:54.

Cameron, to be honest they both represent a type of politics which

:42:54.:43:01.

I do not think is good for Britain. Isn't this whole saga just making

:43:01.:43:05.

fun of a whole idea of a mayor? Many places around the country have

:43:05.:43:10.

been voting on a mayor. Is it just the position to put the old

:43:10.:43:14.

buffoons school friend, or is it away to get into parliament? It is

:43:14.:43:19.

not actually a place anyone would aspire to. You do not sound

:43:19.:43:24.

convinced. Well, I did think so, but this saga has changed it all

:43:24.:43:29.

around. I think the only way the

:43:29.:43:33.

Conservative Party would get back in in 2015 is to have Boris, and

:43:33.:43:38.

maybe a zip wire straight into Downing Street. The woman in the

:43:38.:43:43.

centre. Do you think Boris Johnson would want the job as Prime

:43:43.:43:48.

Minister? Grant Shapps. Can you answer the question? It is

:43:48.:43:54.

impossible to know what Boris thinks. Why? Because he comes up

:43:54.:43:59.

with lots of different views. disagree with the gentleman who was

:43:59.:44:07.

not sure about the job of the mayor. The position is fabulously

:44:07.:44:11.

successful. People would have seen the Boris bikes everywhere, they

:44:11.:44:14.

would have seen that he has done things for London, got rid of the

:44:14.:44:21.

ridiculous bendy bus that used to block every road. We do not want a

:44:21.:44:24.

eulogy to Boris Johnson. He might actually challenge you for the

:44:24.:44:30.

leadership one day, more to the point. Now, now! Do not say that to

:44:30.:44:34.

me. I know it is an embarrassing thing to be tipped to do, but you

:44:34.:44:38.

are one of those tipped as a potential leader. Let me stick with

:44:38.:44:45.

the question for a moment. Not too long. His term runs until 2016. He

:44:45.:44:52.

has said he will see out the term. I want to trade a couple of quotes

:44:52.:44:57.

from Boris. My favourite one is one where he says, there is no such

:44:57.:45:00.

thing as disasters, only opportunities, and each opportunity

:45:01.:45:10.
:45:11.:45:18.

is a fresh opportunity for renewed Right! I think his sense of humour

:45:18.:45:22.

is terrible. I canned understand why a group - I don't know how many

:45:22.:45:27.

people are in the Tory conference, found that mop, brush thing funny.

:45:27.:45:33.

If that was left to market forces and he was in a comedy club...

:45:33.:45:37.

been to hundreds of party conferences and the fourth or fifth

:45:37.:45:42.

day you will laugh at anything. Simon Hughes? No, he shouldn't

:45:42.:45:47.

challenge, is the short answer to your question. Look, I understand

:45:47.:45:51.

why Boris is so important to the Tory Party. They want won an

:45:51.:45:55.

election outright since 1992, which they won with Sir John Major. Not

:45:55.:46:01.

quite the same. But you haven't won one for 85 years. No, that's true,

:46:01.:46:06.

but we are on the way there. It takes time. I can see why the

:46:06.:46:12.

Tories think anything that excites, but no. The nuclear button is the

:46:12.:46:15.

bottom line question. Yes he's made a contribution in London, but

:46:15.:46:21.

bluntly for the Olympics it was other people - Tessa Jowell, Seb

:46:21.:46:31.
:46:31.:46:33.

Coe, a range of people. He has to serve out his term. My judgment is

:46:33.:46:37.

will he deliver the affordable housing that my constituents want

:46:37.:46:41.

in London? Will he honour the promise before the election that no

:46:41.:46:46.

police station will close? I will judge him on his actions, not his

:46:46.:46:51.

speeches. He is very funny, it is light relief for the Tory Party

:46:51.:47:00.

conference, but in my view he is not material for the leader of the

:47:00.:47:07.

party. Des pit what Benjamin said, the quotation or -- despite what

:47:07.:47:12.

Benjamin said, the quotation, should he be considered as Prime

:47:13.:47:17.

Minister or the next Mayor of London, the remarks he made about

:47:17.:47:24.

the Chinese. You don't think he should be? What do you think?

:47:24.:47:28.

think one of the reasons bore sis so well liked is he is not part of

:47:28.:47:32.

the coalition and is able to speak his mind freely and challenge what

:47:32.:47:36.

the Government propose. Tinge problem with Boris, if you like, is

:47:36.:47:42.

also that he does have this sort of approach that is almost the anti-

:47:42.:47:46.

politician's politician. I can see that. And I can see, I watched him

:47:46.:47:52.

this week on the TV, and I could see how he could touch the right

:47:52.:47:57.

buttons and come off almost like the Peter Ustinov of politics, for

:47:57.:48:02.

those hof you who are old enough to remember him. We should not

:48:02.:48:05.

underestimate Boris and his political philosophy. It is very

:48:05.:48:10.

right-wing. We shouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security that

:48:10.:48:15.

this guy with a bumbling persona, quite amusing on occasion, even

:48:15.:48:20.

though Benjamin doesn't think. So he has some pretty extreme right-

:48:20.:48:24.

wing views. He is very keen on supporting the bankers. So you

:48:25.:48:31.

would rather have Michael Green? Again we are into fantasy politics.

:48:31.:48:36.

I also think that if it got down to seriously voting for him as Prime

:48:36.:48:40.

Minister, outside the M25 I don't think he would have that much

:48:40.:48:46.

popularity, in Yorkshire or Birmingham. APPLAUSE

:48:46.:48:51.

If we had Michael Green, alias Grant Shapps as Prime Minister, I'm

:48:51.:48:58.

told we could give him $200 to buy software and we would make $20,000

:48:58.:49:06.

in 20 days or get our money back. You shouldn't believe everything

:49:06.:49:16.
:49:16.:49:16.

you right -- read. I've read in the last few weeks I am a Jehovah's

:49:16.:49:21.

Witness. I'm too late to give you $200. It is closed. How many people

:49:21.:49:29.

did you have to pay back and how many made $20,000? For viewers who

:49:29.:49:37.

are not aware, before I was in politics, I used to write business

:49:37.:49:42.

publications under the pen name Michael Green. I always remembered

:49:42.:49:52.
:49:52.:49:52.

what the slogan vote blue get green really means. Now we all know it.

:49:52.:49:58.

Are you really rich? No. Benjamin, my wife has spent the last few

:49:58.:50:02.

months asking me where this $28 million is hidden. Sadly we still

:50:03.:50:09.

have to work to pay the mortgage each month. Sadly you had to pay

:50:09.:50:15.

back so many $25 each months. find it interesting, they were

:50:15.:50:20.

businessmanuals, advising people on how to run their businesses. I

:50:20.:50:30.

understand when you are... You are running a business with an assumed

:50:30.:50:35.

name. Hello, I'm running a business. Give me your money. Bye-bye.

:50:35.:50:41.

must end with a serious question. Annie Sheen, please. Shouldn't the

:50:41.:50:46.

abortion limit be a matter for the morality of individual women and

:50:46.:50:53.

not Jeremy Hunt? APPLAUSE The new Health Secretary, who said

:50:53.:50:59.

he personally favoured reducing the abortion limit to 12 weeks and the

:50:59.:51:03.

Prime Minister saying he thought 22 instead of 24. The question, is

:51:03.:51:07.

should this be a matter for the morality of individuals and not for

:51:07.:51:11.

Jeremy Hunt? We had a number of people saying it shouldn't be a

:51:11.:51:15.

matter for men at all. Caroline Flint. This issue is one of those

:51:15.:51:19.

matters where there is usually a free vote in Parliament. I think

:51:19.:51:25.

that's right. But I think at the heart of this issue is when does it

:51:25.:51:30.

begin to matter that you override a woman's decision that she wants to

:51:30.:51:35.

make over whether to continue a pregnancy or not? What worries me

:51:35.:51:40.

about this discussion in the last week is that a lot of information

:51:40.:51:44.

is put into the public domain that presents a picture that doesn't

:51:44.:51:52.

bear any relation to reality. The truth is 91% of terminations or

:51:52.:51:58.

abortions happen before 12 weeks. 7% between 13 and 19 and less than

:51:58.:52:04.

1.5% between 20 and 24 weeks. Those that do take place over 20 weeks

:52:04.:52:11.

are for a whole number of reasons, connected to young girls who come

:52:11.:52:14.

forward or circumstances in terms of testing and screening. And also

:52:14.:52:19.

matter that change that create a huge matter of concern to that

:52:19.:52:24.

woman. I would say to the women in the audience and at home, this is

:52:24.:52:31.

not an easy issue for any woman to take. What worries me in this

:52:31.:52:34.

debate is an idea that women are casually applying to have a

:52:34.:52:37.

termination. The other point on the science, this is really important,

:52:37.:52:41.

because Jeremy Hunt said he felt the evidence suggested it should be

:52:41.:52:45.

reduced to 12 weeks. The Royal College of Obstetricians and

:52:45.:52:49.

gynaecologists, the royal college of nursing, the British Medical

:52:49.:52:53.

Association, have reaffirmed what they said in 2008. There is no

:52:53.:52:57.

scientific evidence to suggest that the viability of a foetus between

:52:57.:53:01.

20 and 24 weeks has changed. There is no evidence that that has

:53:01.:53:07.

changed. When we have these debates and it is puts into the public

:53:07.:53:11.

domain in the way it is, that people are bandying around that

:53:11.:53:17.

they know the evidence, particularly politicians, it does

:53:17.:53:20.

undermine access to safe abortions and for women to choose. There

:53:20.:53:25.

should be that option. APPLAUSE

:53:25.:53:30.

The notion was that a foetus at an earlier age had a better chance of

:53:31.:53:35.

surviving. I wand to ask should be should be should be, do you have a

:53:35.:53:42.

view about what the - dish want to ask Annie Sheen, do you have a view

:53:42.:53:47.

about what the limit should be? shouldn't change. I don't agree

:53:47.:53:51.

with Jeremy Hunt. 24 weeks. I completely agree with Caroline. A

:53:51.:53:55.

woman who decides to have an abortion at any time in her

:53:55.:53:58.

pregnancy, it's a terrible thing to have to decide to do. We should

:53:58.:54:08.
:54:08.:54:09.

have a health policy that allows that breth of individual choice for

:54:09.:54:17.

women. All the way up until what? don't work in the health profession.

:54:17.:54:20.

Really my question was more about that it should be the woman's

:54:20.:54:25.

choice and that the policy should reflect that. And that Jeremy Hunt

:54:25.:54:30.

and other politicians shouldn't be politicising this when perhaps it

:54:30.:54:37.

shouldn't need to be. We need to be brief. I think that unfortunately

:54:37.:54:43.

politics does come into it, because we need a legal framework within

:54:43.:54:50.

which to work the abortion line. I think that unlike Caroline, there

:54:50.:54:57.

is plenty of medical, scientific breakthroughs that show us that a

:54:57.:55:04.

foetus is viable between 20 and 24 weeks. That they survive at 20

:55:05.:55:11.

weeks. There are thousand thousands of Britons alive who've not only

:55:11.:55:15.

survived but thrived as premature babies who were born between 20 and

:55:15.:55:22.

24 weeks. What are we saying about them? What's your view? My view is

:55:22.:55:28.

that we should certainly review the law, because medical science has

:55:28.:55:32.

shown us that the way it stands doesn't make sense. You are not

:55:32.:55:37.

against abortion at all? As a Catholic I'm against abortion, but

:55:37.:55:42.

as a citizen I do not expect the laws to reflect my religious views.

:55:42.:55:48.

But I do think that the law should take into account medical science.

:55:48.:55:52.

Benjamin Zephaniah? As a man I think I have, I should have no say

:55:52.:55:59.

in the way that a woman chooses to deal with this issue, unless I am

:55:59.:56:06.

attached to that woman. I have known a lot of women, quite a few

:56:06.:56:11.

women who've had abortions. Never in the history of me have I seen a

:56:11.:56:16.

woman celebrating, great, I've had an abortion. It is always under

:56:16.:56:20.

some very drastic circumstances. Absolutely. Just to answer the

:56:20.:56:25.

question. She said, the lady said she is happy with 24, because she

:56:25.:56:28.

doesn't know any better and that seems to be working now. I think

:56:28.:56:33.

that's right. A man has just said he thinks it should be cut to 12 or

:56:33.:56:39.

whatever it is. We shouldn't listen to him. He was only giving his

:56:39.:56:42.

personal view. That's why we shouldn't listen to him, it is only

:56:42.:56:47.

his personal view. Unless there is some amazing scientific

:56:48.:56:54.

breakthrough. There is! We have a minute or two left. I want to bring

:56:54.:56:58.

Simon Hughes and Grant Shapps in. As a Christian, my starting point

:56:58.:57:04.

is that abortion is not a desirable thing to happen. Nobody says that.

:57:04.:57:07.

David Steel was brave and made it legal in this country, which was

:57:07.:57:11.

the right thing to do. I have checked as a man and somebody who

:57:11.:57:16.

votes on this in Parliament on a free vote. For me the one test is

:57:16.:57:21.

viability. You shouldn't allow abortions after lives can continue

:57:21.:57:24.

independently. For me I agree with Caroline, the medical evidence that

:57:24.:57:31.

I have seen and I've talked to the hospitals locally to me, Guy's

:57:31.:57:36.

Hospital and elsewhere, it is 24 weeks or very near it. It may be 23,

:57:36.:57:42.

it might just be 22, that for me is the margin. We should have

:57:42.:57:46.

evidence-led decision, not prejudice-led decision. Grant

:57:46.:57:53.

Shapps? As Simon says it is a free vote in Parliament. When I voted on

:57:53.:57:58.

it I voted I think down to 22. Possibly down to 20. I was really

:57:58.:58:01.

looking carefully at the medical evidence to try to identify whether

:58:01.:58:06.

there was a trend. It looks like babies can survive slightly earlier

:58:06.:58:09.

nowadays. In terms of the Government's position, we don't

:58:09.:58:12.

have one. We are not seeking to bring forward a vote. There isn't a

:58:13.:58:17.

Government position on it. It will always be a free vote as far as

:58:17.:58:21.

we're concerned. I think there should be a proper period of time.

:58:21.:58:24.

I'm surprised to discover that in Northern Ireland it is just nine

:58:24.:58:28.

weeks, which is very short indeed. And the Health Secretary was simply

:58:28.:58:34.

expressing his view. He was asked how he voted and he said how he

:58:34.:58:40.

voted. Apologies if you haven't had a chance to speak. We are going to

:58:40.:58:43.

be in Easterhouse next week and the week after that in Slough. If you

:58:43.:58:47.

week after that in Slough. If you would like to take part visit our

:58:47.:58:52.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS