Browse content similar to 11/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
By good evening. Question Time tonight is in Birmingham. -- good | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
evening. And a big welcome to our audience | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
and to our panel, Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps, | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
shadow energy secretary, Caroline Flint, deputy leader of the Liberal | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
Democrats, Simon Hughes, Daily Telegraph columnist, Christina | :00:29. | :00:39. | |
:00:39. | :00:49. | ||
Odone. And poet and author, Thank you. Our first question from | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
Des Michael Duff. Is the BBC's reputation about to be blown away | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
by the Jimmy Saville debacle? the BBC's reputation about to be | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
blown away by the Jimmy Saville debacle? Grant Shapps. This has | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
been very, very concerning in the last week or two as this has come | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
out. What is incredible is that this is something which appears to | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
have taken place not just over the last few years, but over four | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
decades, which means a lot of people must have been aware. And | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
now it turns out there are 30 cases the police have said have come | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
forward. Day-by-day, it seems unimaginable that people within the | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
BBC did not know. There was that Newsnight report put together, but | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
not dead, apparently because there was about to be a programme with | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
three separate airings of a programme paying tribute to Jimmy | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
Saville's life. -- it was not dead. I think the BBC knows there are | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
questions to be answered. That is why the chairman, Chris Patten, | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
came out yesterday, fairly firmly saying that somebody independent | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
should be appointed to look at this. Absolutely agree that what happens | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
it is to have been absolutely outrageous. -- what happened. | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
are the issues for the BBC's reputation? Is it the broadcast of | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
the celebratory programmes about Jimmy Saville when they knew that | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
Newsnight had been interviewing people who alleged they had been | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
abused? Or is it that nobody within the BBC over 40 years of the said, | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
I think something is going wrong? think it is disturbing when you | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
hear the number of people who have come forward from within and | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
outside the BBC and have said, I knew something, I suspected | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
something, or why was one of the victims in this. I think it is | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
particularly disturbing that a programme paying tribute, a three- | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
part programme, went out, three different programmes, just last | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
Christmas, wasn't it, after it was already known that something was | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
wrong, enough to have had a serious Newsnight programme made about it, | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
and enough to have raised serious concerns. I think we need to know | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
who knew what and when, and there are definitely questions that | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
needed answering. Christina Odone. One of the biggest shocks is that | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
it happened at the heart of the liberal establishment, in the | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
hallowed halls of the BBC, which is cherished and trusted and respected. | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
We are so comfortable and cosy with the BBC that we call her auntie. I | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
think there were two levels of trust betrayed. One was by Jimmy | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
Saville and his victims, young, under-age girls and I think one boy. | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
But also us, the licence fee payers. And we feel we have been taken for | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
a ride. And I think one of the interesting things is that BBC | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
programme makers were very vicious and thorough in their condemnation | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
of the Catholic church when they have their own gross child abuse | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
scandals. And I think in fact what we could do is for the BBC to learn | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
from the way that the Catholic Church mishandled its dealings of | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
the child abuse cover-up, and we should have a very prompt and | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
independent investigation. We should have a very public apology, | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
not only by Chris Patten but by a the director general of the BBC. | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
And we should have compensation for the victims, and a thorough clean- | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
up of what looks like very filthy practices. And do you think that is | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
happening, or do you think the BBC is dragging its feet? I think it | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
has dragged its feet. Already we can say we should have already had | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
a thorough clean-up of what has happened. The the question I have | :04:55. | :05:03. | |
is, it is all well and good for the BBC with Jimmy Saville. What is the | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
reputation of the various charities that he was associated with? Surely | :05:06. | :05:14. | |
they will be tarnished with the same brush. Will there be something | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
dumb thugs something done by which their charities Association can be | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
moved away, because they'd may well lose donations because of | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
association with him. Do you think it was a surprise to the hospitals | :05:28. | :05:36. | |
where he worked? Without a doubt. In the back row. Should he not | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
immediately lose his title? Should he lose his title? Benjamin | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
Zephaniah. I think they are considering taking the title from | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
him. I must say, when the story first broke, this is a bit of a | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
confession. I jumped off the city and I said, I knew it. Seriously. I | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
saw the documentary where somebody asked him about his feelings, and | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
he had no feelings for anybody. They asked him if he could love | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
anybody and he said, What Is Love? He had no emotional intelligence at | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
all. He did not seem to care about anybody. I remember thinking, that | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
is a very dangerous person. But it was a private thought and I could | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
never have said that. He was raising millions for charities. I | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
remember first going into the Catholic Herald and being told, | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
there is this saint called Jimmy. And they will all bowled over by | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
how brilliant he was, -- they were all bowled over. How he was | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
tireless in his devotion to charities, especially charities | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
dealing with young children. I have to say, I went through the | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
children's homes. I knew kids who were abused. I never was. But at | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
night I had to sometimes try to stop children from getting out of | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
bed in the middle of the night and going to meet members of staff. And | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
I remember a kid crying in front of me, begging me to let him go to be | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
abused because he was so scared. And this addresses the point you | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
have just raised. When we put people on a pedestal, and we beat | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
them up so much, and Jimmy Saville was basically the BBC man through | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
and through. They just become untouchable. And they can do good | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
things in the community. Many people who abuse children do good | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
things in the community. They do football, church, all of those | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
things, to have access to these young people. So we put them on a | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
pedestal and they become untouchable. Last night, my mother | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
said, I don't believe anything like this about Jimmy Saville, I think | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
he is a good man because of the good things he has done. What about | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
the BBC's reputation? I remember in the 1980s going into an office in | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
the BBC. If I could remember the person, I would say. This person | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
was waiting to get a secretary. I said, what is she like? He said, I | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
do not care, as long as she has big breasts. There was a culture at the | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
time that allow that kind of thing and they just got away with it. | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
the second row from the back. think there is something of a nasty | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
taste to be left by the fact that if this investigation is to be | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
pursued, basically we live in a society where everybody remains | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
innocent until proven guilty and has the right to be tried in a | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
court of law, that if the BBC is going to be seen to be supporting | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
this, it is going to set a precedent to bring postern has | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
convictions and allegations against other people have passed away, and | :08:51. | :08:59. | |
the trauma that will cause to their families. -- posthumous convictions. | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
It is not like he will be tried in a court of law because he is dead. | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
The problem is every single day there are more people coming | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
forward with things they witnessed, or happened to them. I do not think | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
we can avoid that, or ignore it. As far as the reputation of the BBC, | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
there are two aspects. One, still to get to the bottom of why the | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
Newsnight report was squashed and the reasons for that. The second | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
part of it is about looking at the BBC as an institution, and | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
reflecting on whether there is more they should have done during that | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
period. I am not just talking about Jimmy Saville. Liz Kershaw, the | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
radio DJ, recounted that when she was broadcasting, male colleagues | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
would literally come to her and put their hands on her breasts while | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
she was broadcasting and could do nothing about it. When she raised | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
it, she was told, that is part of what it is like, that is just what | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
you have to put up with. There is an issue about addressing that. | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
Wider in the BBC, it is recognising about when we put people on a | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
pedestal. But also within institutions, whether a church | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
institution, school, children's home, politics, the media, | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
hospitals, wherever, how do we protect the most vulnerable in | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
those institutions? And we don't allow the powerful to basically | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
take complete liberties with the power that they have got. I think | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
that is important. To bring it up to date, let's not believe this is | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
something in the past. We have seen those young girls who were groomed | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
into prostitution, and they raised their voice and the police did not | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
listen to them, people did not listen in the community. Every day, | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
they are women and men facing sexual harassment at work in | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
different situations and often they are fearful of saying anything | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
because they think they will be ridiculed and told they are too | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
politically correct. It is here today. Maybe not the same as in the | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
1980s, but it is here today, people feeling powerless when they are in | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
a position where people more powerful than them keep them from | :10:57. | :11:07. | |
:11:07. | :11:08. | ||
raising their voice. We also have to question why so few | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
people came forward. What does it say about society that they stayed | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
silent for so long? And if they did come for, why were they not | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
listened to? Simon Hughes. extraordinary thing is that | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
apparently nobody went to the police over 40 years. I find that | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
almost unbelievable. If somebody ever did go to the police and that | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
comes up, that raises another set of really serious issues. Of course, | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
there is a BBC issue, because a public broadcaster has an | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
obligation to warn of the people who come to work for it and who, as | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
visitors, to make sure that they are respected and not abused. -- it | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
has a responsibility to all of the people. It is not going to be | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
hampered in this case by a criminal prosecution because the man is dead, | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
so they do not have to wait for the police, the CPS and all of these | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
people. So the BBC can get on with things. But I have one equally big | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
concern. Jimmy Saville appeared to go into hospital on a regular basis | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
and other public sector institutions where there were | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
honourable people. That, for me, is as worrying, that he apparently | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
went about his illegal and disgraceful business there, and of | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
their there were not complaints made, pursued or followed up. And | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
the one place where everybody in this room would want people to be | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
secured are the children's homes and the hospitals in our country, | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
run by the state. We have to make sure schools and hospitals are | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
safeguarded institutions. If they have failed, there is a serious | :12:46. | :12:56. | |
:12:56. | :12:59. | ||
issue about Leeds hospital, Stoke Somebody raised the point about the | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
knighthood. Those expire when someone dies. I would be in favour | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
of the forfeiture committee taking a close look at this because it | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
cannot be right but somebody apparently keeps the title in front | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
of their name when this is the reality of their lives. A couple | :13:18. | :13:27. | |
more brief points. I like solutions rather than problems, so how do we | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
move on and make sure this does not happen again? I think Jimmy | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
Saville's celebrity status is a problem. He managed to get into | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
these places and do this under that umbrella. I think the public sector | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
needs support in ensuring that no matter what state as a person has, | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
with any manager, is a liberty, a footballer, that they have the | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
support to be able to whistle blower and talk and people will | :13:52. | :14:00. | |
believe them. One more point. watching something on the BBC this | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
morning, an interview with a lady that was saying, making an | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
allegation against him. She said she told her parents and they shrug | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
it off, he would not do that. I think there are serious issues with | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
parents saying to a child that that would not happen. Something needs | :14:18. | :14:28. | |
:14:28. | :14:41. | ||
We followed the example of David Cameron in one thing and we've | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
Cameron in one thing and we've started tweeting this week, like he | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
says he has. We now have a Twitter panellist. | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
Tonight the columnist is Toby Young. If you do tweet, you will know what | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
I'm talking about. If you don't, you can remain the blissful | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
ignorance. Another question, from ignorance. Another question, from | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
Laura Howard, please. Is George Osborne discriminating against the | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
under 25s with his proposal to remove housing benefits? Benjamin | :15:14. | :15:22. | |
Zephaniah, is it unwarranted discrimination? I think it is | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
discrimination and very dangerous. What happens when you take away the | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
benefit of these people. You are going to push them back into the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
homes where some were abused, you are going to push them on to the | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
street. We are just forcing them to go into situations which they don't | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
want to go in. Nobody wants, well, I believe very few people are | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
people that want to just live off benefits for the sake of it. Young | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
people, especially now, need a hand. We can't keep putting pressure on | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
them to go out and get jobs, when there are no jobs. You can't push | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
people into the swimming pool when you have taken the water out of the | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
swimming pool. APPLAUSE What the Government was trying to do was | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
save �1.8 billion I think in housing benefit, and this was one | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
of the ways of doing it. Grant Shapps. This is a proposal for the | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
future. It is not something for right now. This is as a result of | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
the difficult spending environment, there needs to be savings in future. | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
Sorry, does it make it different that it is for the future? No, it | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
is that figure is not now, it is for the future, �10 million from | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
the benefits bill. The benefits and pension is �200 billion. One pound | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
in three that the Government spends in this country. It is an enormous | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
amount and can't go unchecked forever there. Has to come a point | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
where if you are a young person and you have studied and you are | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
probably now at home living back at home and you're working, you are | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
probably saving up for that first flat. You are probably not going to | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
do it by the time you are 25. What we are saying is if you are not in | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
work you shouldn't be in an advantage because you are on | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
welfare rather than in work. Somebody has to pick up the tab for | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
this and it's the taxpayer who is having to pick up the tab for | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
taxpayers for people who have to live at home and carry on working. | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
There'll be exemptions, people who've come out of care and people | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
with other troubled backgrounds will be exempt. But I do think it | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
is right on the balance of fairness to all, that we do check the | :17:48. | :17:58. | |
:17:58. | :17:59. | ||
welfare bill and don't let it rise inexorably. Giving charitable aid, | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
charity should begin at home. We need to look at the elderly, the | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
aged, and instead of trying to take money away from them. Look at what | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
we are spending overseas. Not everybody else jumps up and sends | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
their troops abroad or donates tens of billions. Are you against any | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
cuts in the welfare bill? We need to be prudent at the moment, | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
because of the economic state. However, it seems to be we are | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
always penalising those with the least amount, and that's wrong. | :18:31. | :18:41. | |
APPLAUSE OK. Can I go back to Grant Shapps and say how he thinks it is | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
fair that my grandparents and parents have paid tax all their | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
lives it is not against me not to be allowed to have benefits when a | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
European family from the EU can have those same benefits but I'm | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
having mine taken from me? How is that not discrimination? APPLAUSE | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
My view is this should be fair on everyone. On the aid budget point, | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
I think it is �10 billion. The welfare budget is �200 billion. | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
It's a huge budget and it has gone up and up. We can't go on spending | :19:14. | :19:24. | |
�1 in �3 on welfare. I don't want you to be in a disadvantaged person. | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
A young person watching this probably can't afford to buy their | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
own house. This is about fairness to the taxpayer as a whole. Your | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
parents are having to go out and earn the money. We don't want to | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
put people in a better position when they don't work. The answer of | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
course is to have more people in work. That's why it is good that | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
unemployment has been falling in the last six months. Simon Hughes, | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
will the Liberal Democrats oppose this move that was announced at | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
conference? Grant made clear it is not a done deal across the | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
coalition. I, as proposed, would not agree to it. I'm very clear | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
about it, for the reasons that prompted the question. I have a | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
made who works for Centre Point, the charity working with young | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
single people who can't stay at home. I asked him for four figures | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
today. There are 385,000 youngsters under 25 claiming housing benefit. | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
17% are employed. They use it to top up their employment. If they | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
didn't have it, they probably couldn't afford to stay where they | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
are living and they would probably have to give up their work. On that | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
basis it seems unintelligent. 7% are sick or disabled, so they are | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
not going to be able to go to work and the money won't make any | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
difference. Half of them have dependent children. Are you really | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
saying that we should be depriving a 23-year-old mum of the money she | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
needs to keep the roof over the head of her two little ones? Lastly, | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
I'm for collecting more money from the people who are very well off in | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
this country. There are loads of people... APPLAUSE Who still have | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
most of the wealth. 1% of this country own about 15% of the wealth. | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
10% own half the wealth in this country. Come on, if we wanted a | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
society where we pay off our debts and cut the money, let's collect | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
money from people who can afford to pay, not take money from youngsters | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
who are struggling with all the other pressures and trying to bring | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
up their kids and survive. Do you think Nick Clegg will agree with | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
you and make this an issue, a dividing you? The coalition and | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
refuse? Nick does agree with me. Sorry, so the Liberal Democrats | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
phalanx in Government is going to say no? We are have not signed up | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
to cutting housing benefit. won't? I don't imagine for a moment | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
that we will. I will come back to you. Cristina Odone. I think Simon | :22:00. | :22:08. | |
is thinking that Nick is going to stand up to David in a way that he | :22:08. | :22:17. | |
didn't over university fees. APPLAUSE I can't quite see that | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
that one going. But I also think another thing. I think most young | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
people are motivated by a sense of fairness rather than a sense of | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
entitlement. I do agree that it is very hard to be one of the 3 | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
million graduates who are forced to go back and live at home, even | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
though they are working really hard, and to know that there's 210,000 | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
people between 16 and 24 who automatically got a council home. I | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
think that is very unfair. Cristina, they don't automatically get a | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
council home. They are automatically eligible. No. You are | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
wrong. Single people... I did my homework. Single young adults are | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
not automatically eligible for a council authority in any authority | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
in England. There are lots of automatic eligibility. One of the | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
interesting things is that I've got friends who are between 16 and 24. | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
Most of them my stepson's friends, and they are saying this is not | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
fair. They are also saying, I don't think I'm entitled to have a home | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
of my own the moment I come out of university. Lots and lots of kids | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
are prepared to share rooms, to go back home and live with mum and dad. | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
You're only entitled to the money on a shared room basis up to the | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
age of 35. Honestly, if you are single. Caroline Flint? I'm afraid | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
this is another one of those ill thought through policies on a back | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
of an envelope which is about disguising the fact that their | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
economic plan is failing. APPLAUSE They are having to find �10 billion | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
to plug the gap their deficit plan, because the truth is this year they | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
are having to borrow 22% more. That's about �800 a second more | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
borrowing, because it is failing. They've restricted growth. That's | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
going down to something like minus 0.4% for 2012, the IMF announced | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
that. Clearly with 1 million young people unemployed, if they think | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
this is the answer, it is a joke. As Benjamin said, let's talk about | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
people rather than statistics. An awful lot of these young people | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
have been in situations where they've come out of the care system | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
or are leaving abusive situations at home. A large number are young | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
parents. Some of them are young people who've got on their bike and | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
moved away from home to find work, but because the work is so lowly | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
paid they are having to get supplement with housing benefit is. | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
Issue here shnot this policy. It is to look at the reasons why young | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
people, whether they are parents, young people who've left for work, | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
need housing benefit. Give them the help to get into work and not rely | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
on housing benefit. That's the answer. Both Caroline and I have | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
been Housing Ministers at different times. One of the things that | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
happened under the previous administration, housing benefit | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
itself, the bill itself, doubled. The working poor happened to claim | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
it. Up to �21 billion. I hear what you are saying, that you don't like | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
this future example of how it could be trimmed. But the question is, | :25:43. | :25:52. | |
:25:53. | :25:53. | ||
when are you going to agree with even 1 penny off the deficit? | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
That's ridiculous. We said we would halve the deficit over this | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
Parliament and that would include a 12% cut in policing, not 20%. Cuts | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
in the education budget and elsewhere. The truth is your plan | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
by going too far too fast has restricted the economy. You are | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
having to borrow more. You are not way on target. We would be rattling | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
like Greece if today if we carried on. I think again the Government is | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
penalising the most vulnerable, which is the young people. APPLAUSE | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
If you have a deficit from the benefit system you should go back | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
to the bankers and get our money back from them. Your Government put | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
us into this situation. Shouldn't we sort out the | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
unemployment figures before talking about decreasing the welfare | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
budget? How do you mean by sort out? Unemployment figures are far | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
too high to even consider dropping the welfare budget. We've got | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
record unemployment. Why don't we try to get people back into work | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
before taking their benefits away from them without any jobs? | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
APPLAUSE Welfare takes up a lot of spending in the UK at the moment, | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
so it does need to be reviewed, but a lot of people in this country | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
think that those on benefits just sit at home and don't need them. | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
But a large majority of people in this country do need benefits. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
There should be an education. There's a small minority, there's | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
not the jobs out from, so unemployment does need to be looked | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
at before spending. A lot of people think we can't good out to work, it | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
is better off to get benefits, because that will pay more than the | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
jobs are paying out there. Following from that man's point, | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
you need to target unemployment before you target the cutting | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
spending og welfare. But you also need to make sure that the system | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
doesn't mean that it is better for you not to work. You earn more if | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
you don't work than if you work. That is the problem. I definitely | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
agree with that. It is a social thing as well there. Needs to be | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
education with your parents. If your parents are staying at home | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
and giving the impression that it is better to stay at home because | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
you will earn more, there needs to be education there. And legislation | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
in schools and things where people need to be more aware of this. | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
want to go to another member of the audience. You keep on mentioning | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
that we are all in this together and let's make things fair. So | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
let's start moving to the other end. Mention the mansion tax. Please | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
mention the things about covering up the loophole tax avoidance. | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
Let's look at the other end of address issue, where we can find | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
money and not just focusing on the vulnerable end, the welfare end. | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
Grant Shapps? I agree with you. Simon mentioned how much the | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
wealthy are paid, the top 1% of earners account for almost 30% of | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
all income tax receipts in this country. I absolutely agree with | :29:01. | :29:08. | |
you. Those with the broadest shoulders should bear the largest | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
contribution. You are giving millionaires a �40,000 tax rebate. | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
The mansion tax. This is what's happening. The mansion tax I think | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
would quickly become a homes tax. It boo quickly turn into ordinary | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
homes. It will require the rebanding of everybody's homes. | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
Anyone who has saved hard and worked hard all their lives will | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
suddenly be called having a mansion. It would become a homes tax. As | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
soon as the Inspector gets there and revalues all the homes, | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
everyone watching this will find their homes would be rebanded into | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
paying more. I do agree with you that the wealthiest need to pay the | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
most. They are. Under this Government. Even under the last | :29:53. | :30:01. | |
Budget they ended up paying over �1300 more as a result. While 2 | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
million people have taken out of tax entirely and 24 million people | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
are paying less tax as a result of that increase in the tax-free | :30:09. | :30:19. | |
:30:19. | :30:27. | ||
The system does not encourage responsibility. A lot of people | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
that I was a school with had a child and got house immediately. At | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
the end of the day, it is out of my pocket, so why should we continue | :30:37. | :30:46. | |
I have no truck with people who think that being on benefits when | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
they are of working age is a choice they should be able to make for | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
life. It is why I said when I was a minister that when we were looking | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
at young people in social housing, or other housing but out of work, | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
we should focus on making sure they got training and education. But | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
also the carrot and stick to say, you have an obligation to find work. | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with his with coming | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
up with a policy that already various Conservative ministers are | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
saying, we have to deal with this group, and it is unravelling the | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
day-by-day, as some answer to issues around welfare reform. It is | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
trying to find an answer to plug a gap in an economic plan which is | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
not working. Talking of welfare reform, I think we should focus on | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
things like fraud. In the last year of the Labour Government, we had | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
the highest success rate in detecting fraud in the benefits | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
system. It is only right to do that, just like we should deal with the | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
fraud at the top of society by bankers and elsewhere. Before we go | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
on, Simon Hughes, do you accept that the mansion tax is a dead duck, | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
now do you have heard what Grant Shapps and George Osborne said at | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
the conference? It looks as if the Tories are not going to agree. We | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
think it is a good policy because houses do not move. You can tax | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
them fairly quickly. You are going to end up agreeing on less and less | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
as the parliament goes on. Coalition, by definition, is a | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
coming together of different parties. We have agreed on lots of | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
good things. We agreed on taking lots of people out of tax. We | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
agreed on increases to the state pension, really important. There | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
are things we disagree on. I want more wealth taxes, people to pay a | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
mansion tax. But that does not mean to say, to pick up the gentleman at | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
the back, or that I do not want people who are striving to be | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
encouraged. My mum and dad married on no money in the bank at all. My | :32:41. | :32:48. | |
dad got up at 4am to going brew beer, he was ace driver. Thug he | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
was striving. My uncle ran a chemist's shop, he got up every | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
morning and ran his own business all his life to make sure he had an | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
income for him and his daughters and his wife. I am certain we do | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
not want to DIS incentivise people for working instead of not working. | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
If you cannot help youngsters, who may not have run at home, may have | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
fallen out of their parents. There are all sorts of reasons why kids | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
cannot be at home. If you do not hold them, you are more likely to | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
have a generation that do not work. The if you show them compassion, | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
you make them strive and turn them into a success and have them not on | :33:29. | :33:37. | |
the dole. I am clear about that. You in the T-shirt. Briefly. | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
think there is a large focus on the top earners being taxed and that is | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
correct and needs to be addressed 100%. But there is a point that has | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
been sadly ignored, although it might be unpopular with some people. | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
There is a large percentage of his country that works in trade and | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
other occupations that is consistently paid in cash. | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
Consistently. And degeneration of funds that could be generated from | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
that sector itself is enormous. -- the generation. And the fact that | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
it is ignored it, and we are cutting housing for young people, | :34:15. | :34:25. | |
think it is nonsense. Why is it not addressed? And you, sir. Why are | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
young people, just starting out in life, being turned into the biggest | :34:28. | :34:37. | |
victims of this financial crisis? The changes to tuition fees, the | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
removal of the EMA, the potential threat to working tax credit. These | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
are talented, brilliant young people feeling absolutely hopeless. | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
There is that 17% that Simon mention, those that are in work who | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
are young who could, if they lose housing benefit, become even more | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
hopeless. They are those striving for work who, without housing | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
benefit, could become even more hopeless. There is a hopeless | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
generation already and the ironic thing is that it was not their | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
greed and carelessness that put us in his place in the first place. | :35:13. | :35:23. | |
:35:23. | :35:26. | ||
Where is it written that at the age of 24 you should have your own | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
flat? On the Continent, nobody, but nobody dreams of that, except for | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
the children of millionaires. And certainly not at the expense of the | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
state. In fact, we have just come back from Rome, where there was a | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
whole street of cars parked with newspaper on the cars because these | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
were young people having it off, because at home they have mum and | :35:48. | :35:58. | |
:35:58. | :35:58. | ||
dad. And that is what happens. Having what off? They cannot have a | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
private life at home because they are living with their parents, and | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
that is taken completely for granted. Gopinath! Enough, | :36:08. | :36:18. | |
:36:18. | :36:28. | ||
I know, I have seen that. Seriously, as the lay person on here, it is | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
interesting listening to everybody bandying figures about. But, Grant | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
Shapps, you have to understand that no matter how you spinet, in this | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
week of your conference, to young people out there, the world looks | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
exactly like that man was saying. The young people are being bashed, | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
and they did not have anything at all to do with this economic crisis. | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
I would say one thing to those young people, we are on the side of | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
the vast majority of young people who are working hard and try to get | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
on in life. They need a break and I think this is the most important | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
issue for them. We need a system which is fair to everybody, not | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
just some. Hillary could win as a radical suggestion that might | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
change things. Should Boris Johnson challenge David Cameron for the | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
leadership of the Tory party? Benjamin Zephaniah. Would that | :37:25. | :37:33. | |
changed everything? Do you see any of Boris Johnson? I think not. I | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
cannot believe I am thinking about who I would prefer to lead the Tory | :37:37. | :37:47. | |
:37:47. | :37:47. | ||
party. Boris Johnson said the Chinese... Thinking about our | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
relationship with people abroad. He said the Chinese have no culture. | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
This ancient culture, that goes back for thousands of years, and | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
their culture is based on copying Western culture. He calls black | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
people pick enemies. He said the problem with Africa is that the | :38:05. | :38:13. | |
British are not there. He may seem like a buffoon, a clown, but he is | :38:13. | :38:23. | |
:38:23. | :38:25. | ||
a very, very dangerous person, in my honest opinion. In London, there | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
was an annual festival called Respect, which is bringing young | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
people together with music and poetry and everything else. One of | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
the first things he did when he got into London was to stop it. He did | :38:35. | :38:43. | |
not want to see that kind of unity. I heard somebody in the Tory | :38:43. | :38:50. | |
conference, a Tory supporter, I think, that really is worth | :38:50. | :38:58. | |
repeating. He said, could you trust Boris with his finger on the | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
nuclear button? It is all right for a joke, but could you trust him | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
with the lives of everybody in Western Europe? I think not. | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
somebody who has to share eight- page with Boris Johnson in the | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
Daily Telegraph on Mondays, I have to say, even I have to look at his | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
column before I look at mine, because he is that witty, that | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
funny, that brilliant. Would I trust him? Forget the finger on the | :39:31. | :39:40. | |
:39:41. | :39:43. | ||
thing. Would I trust him in a cab, which I trust him... Would die | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
trust him to be on time? -- would I trust him? He is a force of nature. | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
I think we would never be bored. We would always be on the edge of our | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
seats. We would be laughing a lot. We would be the laughing stock of | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
the world. The Olympics were a pretty impressive event. And Boris | :40:09. | :40:19. | |
was the Mayor of London who made it happen. He did. The point about | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
this question, presumably, was that you saw the reception he got from | :40:23. | :40:33. | |
the Tories. He was a rock star. question is, would the Tory party | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
do better under Boris Johnson as leader? In other words, should he | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
challenge for the sake of the party? No, I think because the Tory | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
party is going through one of the most difficult of economic times, | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
they should stick to their present leader, not have the kind of | :40:52. | :41:00. | |
factionalism, the kind of civil war that would be entailed in a Boris | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
opposition. It is a shame, but let's see what happens next time | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
around. Because the Tory party is so messed-up, Boris looks exotic. | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
Is that what you meant? I do not think they should be a change at | :41:17. | :41:23. | |
the moment. I agree with Christina Odone. I think Boris Johnson is | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
riding on the crest of a wave, in view of the success of the Olympics. | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
I actually think Boris mentioned Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Tessa | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
Jowell, as well as others, in terms of the success of the Olympics, so | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
I do not think you can give it all to Boris on that one. He was | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
generous. He actually was generous in terms of all the people who took | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
part to make the Olympics are a success. Importantly, I would | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
imagine that there is part of me that things when people like Boris, | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
long, you should either put up or shut up, basically, in terms of his | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
challenge. He is clearly a thorn in David Cameron's side. But I think | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
the politics of this, demonstrated this week at the Conservative | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
conference, is that Boris is about being the messenger for more right- | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
wing policies. And what happens in terms of the Tory party when Boris | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
appears, Cameron has to start moving more and more to the right, | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
to feed that need within the Conservative Party. And that is why | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
this week we saw a lot of the things that David Cameron talked | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
about when he was opposition leader, to get into the centre ground, to | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
take the nasty out of conservatism, that was very much given a low | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
profile against other policies like the one we have just discussed, to | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
show that they are on the right of British politics. Boris, David | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
Cameron, to be honest they both represent a type of politics which | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
I do not think is good for Britain. Isn't this whole saga just making | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
fun of a whole idea of a mayor? Many places around the country have | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
been voting on a mayor. Is it just the position to put the old | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
buffoons school friend, or is it away to get into parliament? It is | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
not actually a place anyone would aspire to. You do not sound | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
convinced. Well, I did think so, but this saga has changed it all | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
around. I think the only way the | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
Conservative Party would get back in in 2015 is to have Boris, and | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
maybe a zip wire straight into Downing Street. The woman in the | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
centre. Do you think Boris Johnson would want the job as Prime | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
Minister? Grant Shapps. Can you answer the question? It is | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
impossible to know what Boris thinks. Why? Because he comes up | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
with lots of different views. disagree with the gentleman who was | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
not sure about the job of the mayor. The position is fabulously | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
successful. People would have seen the Boris bikes everywhere, they | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
would have seen that he has done things for London, got rid of the | :44:14. | :44:21. | |
ridiculous bendy bus that used to block every road. We do not want a | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
eulogy to Boris Johnson. He might actually challenge you for the | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
leadership one day, more to the point. Now, now! Do not say that to | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
me. I know it is an embarrassing thing to be tipped to do, but you | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
are one of those tipped as a potential leader. Let me stick with | :44:38. | :44:45. | |
the question for a moment. Not too long. His term runs until 2016. He | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
has said he will see out the term. I want to trade a couple of quotes | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
from Boris. My favourite one is one where he says, there is no such | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
thing as disasters, only opportunities, and each opportunity | :45:01. | :45:10. | |
:45:11. | :45:18. | ||
is a fresh opportunity for renewed Right! I think his sense of humour | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
is terrible. I canned understand why a group - I don't know how many | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
people are in the Tory conference, found that mop, brush thing funny. | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
If that was left to market forces and he was in a comedy club... | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
been to hundreds of party conferences and the fourth or fifth | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
day you will laugh at anything. Simon Hughes? No, he shouldn't | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
challenge, is the short answer to your question. Look, I understand | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
why Boris is so important to the Tory Party. They want won an | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
election outright since 1992, which they won with Sir John Major. Not | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
quite the same. But you haven't won one for 85 years. No, that's true, | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
but we are on the way there. It takes time. I can see why the | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
Tories think anything that excites, but no. The nuclear button is the | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
bottom line question. Yes he's made a contribution in London, but | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
bluntly for the Olympics it was other people - Tessa Jowell, Seb | :46:21. | :46:31. | |
:46:31. | :46:33. | ||
Coe, a range of people. He has to serve out his term. My judgment is | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
will he deliver the affordable housing that my constituents want | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
in London? Will he honour the promise before the election that no | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
police station will close? I will judge him on his actions, not his | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
speeches. He is very funny, it is light relief for the Tory Party | :46:51. | :47:00. | |
conference, but in my view he is not material for the leader of the | :47:00. | :47:07. | |
party. Des pit what Benjamin said, the quotation or -- despite what | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
Benjamin said, the quotation, should he be considered as Prime | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
Minister or the next Mayor of London, the remarks he made about | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
the Chinese. You don't think he should be? What do you think? | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
think one of the reasons bore sis so well liked is he is not part of | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
the coalition and is able to speak his mind freely and challenge what | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
the Government propose. Tinge problem with Boris, if you like, is | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
also that he does have this sort of approach that is almost the anti- | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
politician's politician. I can see that. And I can see, I watched him | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
this week on the TV, and I could see how he could touch the right | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
buttons and come off almost like the Peter Ustinov of politics, for | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
those hof you who are old enough to remember him. We should not | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
underestimate Boris and his political philosophy. It is very | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
right-wing. We shouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security that | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
this guy with a bumbling persona, quite amusing on occasion, even | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
though Benjamin doesn't think. So he has some pretty extreme right- | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
wing views. He is very keen on supporting the bankers. So you | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
would rather have Michael Green? Again we are into fantasy politics. | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
I also think that if it got down to seriously voting for him as Prime | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
Minister, outside the M25 I don't think he would have that much | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
popularity, in Yorkshire or Birmingham. APPLAUSE | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
If we had Michael Green, alias Grant Shapps as Prime Minister, I'm | :48:51. | :48:58. | |
told we could give him $200 to buy software and we would make $20,000 | :48:58. | :49:06. | |
in 20 days or get our money back. You shouldn't believe everything | :49:06. | :49:16. | |
:49:16. | :49:16. | ||
you right -- read. I've read in the last few weeks I am a Jehovah's | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
Witness. I'm too late to give you $200. It is closed. How many people | :49:21. | :49:29. | |
did you have to pay back and how many made $20,000? For viewers who | :49:29. | :49:37. | |
are not aware, before I was in politics, I used to write business | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
publications under the pen name Michael Green. I always remembered | :49:42. | :49:52. | |
:49:52. | :49:52. | ||
what the slogan vote blue get green really means. Now we all know it. | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
Are you really rich? No. Benjamin, my wife has spent the last few | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
months asking me where this $28 million is hidden. Sadly we still | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
have to work to pay the mortgage each month. Sadly you had to pay | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
back so many $25 each months. find it interesting, they were | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
businessmanuals, advising people on how to run their businesses. I | :50:20. | :50:30. | |
understand when you are... You are running a business with an assumed | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
name. Hello, I'm running a business. Give me your money. Bye-bye. | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
must end with a serious question. Annie Sheen, please. Shouldn't the | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
abortion limit be a matter for the morality of individual women and | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
not Jeremy Hunt? APPLAUSE The new Health Secretary, who said | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
he personally favoured reducing the abortion limit to 12 weeks and the | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
Prime Minister saying he thought 22 instead of 24. The question, is | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
should this be a matter for the morality of individuals and not for | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
Jeremy Hunt? We had a number of people saying it shouldn't be a | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
matter for men at all. Caroline Flint. This issue is one of those | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
matters where there is usually a free vote in Parliament. I think | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
that's right. But I think at the heart of this issue is when does it | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
begin to matter that you override a woman's decision that she wants to | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
make over whether to continue a pregnancy or not? What worries me | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
about this discussion in the last week is that a lot of information | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
is put into the public domain that presents a picture that doesn't | :51:44. | :51:52. | |
bear any relation to reality. The truth is 91% of terminations or | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
abortions happen before 12 weeks. 7% between 13 and 19 and less than | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
1.5% between 20 and 24 weeks. Those that do take place over 20 weeks | :52:04. | :52:11. | |
are for a whole number of reasons, connected to young girls who come | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
forward or circumstances in terms of testing and screening. And also | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
matter that change that create a huge matter of concern to that | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
woman. I would say to the women in the audience and at home, this is | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
not an easy issue for any woman to take. What worries me in this | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
debate is an idea that women are casually applying to have a | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
termination. The other point on the science, this is really important, | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
because Jeremy Hunt said he felt the evidence suggested it should be | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
reduced to 12 weeks. The Royal College of Obstetricians and | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
gynaecologists, the royal college of nursing, the British Medical | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
Association, have reaffirmed what they said in 2008. There is no | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
scientific evidence to suggest that the viability of a foetus between | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
20 and 24 weeks has changed. There is no evidence that that has | :53:01. | :53:07. | |
changed. When we have these debates and it is puts into the public | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
domain in the way it is, that people are bandying around that | :53:11. | :53:17. | |
they know the evidence, particularly politicians, it does | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
undermine access to safe abortions and for women to choose. There | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
should be that option. APPLAUSE | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
The notion was that a foetus at an earlier age had a better chance of | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
surviving. I wand to ask should be should be should be, do you have a | :53:35. | :53:42. | |
view about what the - dish want to ask Annie Sheen, do you have a view | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
about what the limit should be? shouldn't change. I don't agree | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
with Jeremy Hunt. 24 weeks. I completely agree with Caroline. A | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
woman who decides to have an abortion at any time in her | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
pregnancy, it's a terrible thing to have to decide to do. We should | :53:58. | :54:08. | |
:54:08. | :54:09. | ||
have a health policy that allows that breth of individual choice for | :54:09. | :54:17. | |
women. All the way up until what? don't work in the health profession. | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
Really my question was more about that it should be the woman's | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
choice and that the policy should reflect that. And that Jeremy Hunt | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
and other politicians shouldn't be politicising this when perhaps it | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
shouldn't need to be. We need to be brief. I think that unfortunately | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
politics does come into it, because we need a legal framework within | :54:43. | :54:50. | |
which to work the abortion line. I think that unlike Caroline, there | :54:50. | :54:57. | |
is plenty of medical, scientific breakthroughs that show us that a | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
foetus is viable between 20 and 24 weeks. That they survive at 20 | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
weeks. There are thousand thousands of Britons alive who've not only | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
survived but thrived as premature babies who were born between 20 and | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
24 weeks. What are we saying about them? What's your view? My view is | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
that we should certainly review the law, because medical science has | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
shown us that the way it stands doesn't make sense. You are not | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
against abortion at all? As a Catholic I'm against abortion, but | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
as a citizen I do not expect the laws to reflect my religious views. | :55:42. | :55:48. | |
But I do think that the law should take into account medical science. | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
Benjamin Zephaniah? As a man I think I have, I should have no say | :55:52. | :55:59. | |
in the way that a woman chooses to deal with this issue, unless I am | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
attached to that woman. I have known a lot of women, quite a few | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
women who've had abortions. Never in the history of me have I seen a | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
woman celebrating, great, I've had an abortion. It is always under | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
some very drastic circumstances. Absolutely. Just to answer the | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
question. She said, the lady said she is happy with 24, because she | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
doesn't know any better and that seems to be working now. I think | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
that's right. A man has just said he thinks it should be cut to 12 or | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
whatever it is. We shouldn't listen to him. He was only giving his | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
personal view. That's why we shouldn't listen to him, it is only | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
his personal view. Unless there is some amazing scientific | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
breakthrough. There is! We have a minute or two left. I want to bring | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
Simon Hughes and Grant Shapps in. As a Christian, my starting point | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
is that abortion is not a desirable thing to happen. Nobody says that. | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
David Steel was brave and made it legal in this country, which was | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
the right thing to do. I have checked as a man and somebody who | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
votes on this in Parliament on a free vote. For me the one test is | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
viability. You shouldn't allow abortions after lives can continue | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
independently. For me I agree with Caroline, the medical evidence that | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
I have seen and I've talked to the hospitals locally to me, Guy's | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
Hospital and elsewhere, it is 24 weeks or very near it. It may be 23, | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
it might just be 22, that for me is the margin. We should have | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
evidence-led decision, not prejudice-led decision. Grant | :57:46. | :57:53. | |
Shapps? As Simon says it is a free vote in Parliament. When I voted on | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
it I voted I think down to 22. Possibly down to 20. I was really | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
looking carefully at the medical evidence to try to identify whether | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
there was a trend. It looks like babies can survive slightly earlier | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
nowadays. In terms of the Government's position, we don't | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
have one. We are not seeking to bring forward a vote. There isn't a | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
Government position on it. It will always be a free vote as far as | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
we're concerned. I think there should be a proper period of time. | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
I'm surprised to discover that in Northern Ireland it is just nine | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
weeks, which is very short indeed. And the Health Secretary was simply | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
expressing his view. He was asked how he voted and he said how he | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
voted. Apologies if you haven't had a chance to speak. We are going to | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
be in Easterhouse next week and the week after that in Slough. If you | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
week after that in Slough. If you would like to take part visit our | :58:47. | :58:52. |