01/11/2012 Question Time


01/11/2012

In the week before the US presidential election, David Dimbleby is joined in London by David Miliband, Jerry Springer, Kwasi Kwarteng, Colleen Graffy and Shami Chakrabarti.


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Transcript


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Good evening. Tonight, Question Time comes from London.

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A big welcome to our audience here and our panel. The Foreign

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Secretary in the last Labour Government, David Miliband. The

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Conservative MP, Kwasi Kwarteng, newly elected to the House of

:00:28.:00:34.

Commons in 2010. The Director of The Human rites pressure group,

:00:34.:00:37.

Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti. The former chairman of Republicans

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abroad, Colleen Graffy, who worked for Condoleezza Rice in the State

:00:42.:00:46.

Department. And a Democrat politician who was Mayor of

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Cincinnati and Ohio, then became host of his own controversial

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television show, Jerry Springer. APPLAUSE

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Thank you very much. The American elections are coming up and our

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first question is from Mark Weaver. Hello. As a US citizen, I voted for

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Barack Obama in 2008, optimistic about his mandate for hope and

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change. The reality has been very different. Does he deserve another

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four years? Well, of course, the race is getting closer and closer.

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Does Obama deserve another four years? Jerry Springer? Yes.

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APPLAUSE I like a man who gives a short

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answer. I would suggest that the reality is that what he has done, I

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think, is an excellent job. When he came into office, the financial

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system in America was cray tering. People were losing half of their

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life savings -- cratering. He came in, saved the financial community,

:02:02.:02:08.

made it stable, people's life savings have now been in a large

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part restored. Secondly, he saved the auto-industry. Thirdly, he when

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he came in, he had several months in a row of losing 730,000 jobs

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every month. Now, we've had 15 straight months of growth between

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100,000 and 300,000 jobs per month. So why is he having such an uphill

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struggle? Well, I think it's because the nation is deeply

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divided. He said he'd get us out of Iraq. He got us out of Iraq. He's

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getting us out of Afghanistan. He got us Osama Bin Laden. For the

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first time in American history, we have health insurance that you all

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enjoy here in Great Britain. I mean, you put that together, what else do

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you want from this man? He's got us out of wars, turned the economy

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around, the housing market is improving, the employment figures

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are improving, the private sector is improving. So why is it so

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difficult for him to... Because much of the country, half of the

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country is... Not persuaded by what you say? Is Conservative. There are

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many people that don't believe all Americans should have health

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insurance. I'm not suggesting that my opinion is necessarily popular,

:03:31.:03:35.

but the question was, from someone who supported Obama, why he should

:03:35.:03:40.

be disappointed today and I'm saying, don't be. You've lost the

:03:40.:03:44.

tingle that you had the first time you voted for him, but that's not

:03:44.:03:49.

unlike a marriage. When you first get married, you just love the way

:03:49.:03:54.

she looks and smiles and it's all the heart strings and the banjos,

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but after years and years of a marriage, there's a deeper love but

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it isn't like every time she walks into the room, you gasp because oh

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my God, she's gorgeous, you love her because it's deep and there's a

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performance there. Does this have resonance for you? No, I think he

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lurched way far to the left, he wanted to build a bigger Government,

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spend tonnes of money and I don't think frankly building bridges and

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roads is the way out of this economic crisis and I think he's

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taken the wrong path. Do you think it's OK that not all Americans have

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health insurance? But again that was incorrectly implement and my

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health care premiums have quadrupled in the last two or three

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years since this came out. Instead of paying excess on my insurance

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any more, I now have to co-insure myself so Obama care's failed. The

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intent was good. It's not even started until 2014, how could it

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have failed? We are already seeing the effects of that legislation.

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You two just go aside for a second. Colleen Graffy? Let me first start

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by saying that even though obviously I worked with the

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previous administration, I was in Washington DC at the time of

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Obama's inauguration and I thought it was fabulous for America, I

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really did. I got up at 4am and I stood in line for five hours, my

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feet are still defrosting it was so cold, but it was really magnificent

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for the United States that we had elected our first African-American

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President and nothing takes away from that. He's still likeable,

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everyone loves him, but the fact is, he's been a disappointment. Not for

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Republicans - we would say that wouldn't we - but for independence

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and Democrats alike. It's not just that he promised to cut the deficit

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in half and it's doubled. It's not just that we have 23 million

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Americans out of work and struggling for work. It's some of

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the things that took place at the beginning of his term. What strikes

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many of us is, he didn't meet the Dalai Lama. The first President of

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the United States not to meet the Dalai Lama when he came to

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Washington DC. He had his reasons, he hadn't gone to China yet, he

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didn't want to cause any problems there, but as a candidate, he had

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told President Bush that he should boycott the Beijing Olympic Games

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because he should have solidarity with Tibet and Darfur. Yet, as

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President Obama, he doesn't want to meet with the thrarm. The reset

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button with Russia not supporting the green revolution in Iran, there

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is a whole host of things that have been disappointing -- he didn't

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want to meet with the Dalai Lama. That's why you see double digits

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turning to Romney. You see newspapers that endorsed Obama in

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2008 and they are now switching and endorsing Romney. So again, great

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moment for America but disappointment and whether that

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results in a Romney win or not, it's very close to tell.

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The woman on the right? I think regardless of who the democratic

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candidate was, I think it would be a real disappointment from a

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woman's perspective for Mitt Romney to be elected. Romney? Yes.

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APPLAUSE Briefly, why do you think that?

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His policies towards abortion... What are those policies? There

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was... You may well ask. They change every day.

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The fact is that abortion is not an issue. It's precedent in the United

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States under Wade and Casey, no-one seriously suggests the Supreme

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Court is going to overturn abortion. I know we bring this... No, it's

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Conservative... One vote away from the Supreme Court and the next

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President will choose. You are a lawyer, it's considered precedent.

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The abortion issue is a scare tactic. Women care about the fact

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that they are higher unemployment than men right now under this

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economy, they care about the fact they don't make a wage that's going

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to support them and their families and that's why women are now

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turning towards Romney because they think I'm going to have a better

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future under this President to have my career and my job. And the

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Republican platform is opposed to the Ledbetter Act You know the

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platform means nothing. It's not like the party manifesto here.

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it has to be said that... I'm sorry. It's true nevertheless that he does

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have difficulty getting the support of women. But that's changing as

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people are realising they are all scare tactics coming out. David

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Miliband? I think he's been a good President in remarkably difficult

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circumstances. APPLAUSE

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He's been calm, progressive, determined, rational, all the

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qualities that you see actually in the last four days actually in the

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context of the floods. Now, I think it's also very important to say, at

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the moment we have been talking about domestic policy really, I

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think he's the best choice on domestic policy. He rejects

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simplistic slogans on foreign policy as well which is very, very

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important. We have been through the era of the

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"Axis of Evil" that North Korea, Iraq and Iran in the same context.

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That was a dreadful mistake by President Bush. Anyone who knows

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anything about the Middle East knows that Iraq and Iran are not

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friends in an "Axis of Evil". On foreign policy, there are three big

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issues facing the world - how you deal with China - not by declaring

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trade war on day one. Second huge issue, Iran. You will never get a

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diplomatic solution to the Iranian nuclear crisis by threatening to

:10:09.:10:14.

bomb them to kingdom come. What you do is actually engage with that

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country and make absolutely clear that if they get a nuclear weapon,

:10:17.:10:23.

then they are risking an attack. But until then you don't get Shia

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to compromise by threatening to bomb them to hell. Third, we still

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have 10,000 troops in Afghanistan. That's the forgotten war in both

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the American election and too often our own domestic politics. We need

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someone who understands that the only solution in Afghanistan is a

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political solution. That does mean talking to the Taliban and engaging

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with Pakistan. Those are essential qualities. One other thing which I

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think the important on the foreign front. Look, the biggest diplomatic

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failure for 40 years has been the failure to create a Palestinian

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state. APPLAUSE

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It's not that the failure to create a Palestinian state is fuelling Al-

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Qaeda. That's not the point. It's an injustice for the Palestinians

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and an insecurity for the Israelis. There's only one candidate who has

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the slightest intention of trying to prosecute that case. I think for

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those foreign policy reasons, as well as for the domestic policy

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reasons, he's a compellingly strong alternative to Mr Romney.

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APPLAUSE Just before we go back on that, I

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want to ask you one caveat. Have you noticed a change in what he

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said from when he was winning the nomination to now in the campaign

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and to the last debate in the things that he said? Romney? Yes.

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Yes, look, Romney will usually - admittedly when he came to London

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and said we were a bunch of useless people who couldn't organise the

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Olympics, he wasn't playing to type - but generally he'll say what the

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audience wants to hear. That's not what he said. In the Republican

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primaries, he ran on a tea party platform. My fear is that actually

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if he got into office, he's too in hhoc to the tea party to get away

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from them that.'s a danger to the American economy where the tea

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party is not being about a fiscal hawk, it's fiscal incontinence with

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tax cuts that can't be afforded. Internationally it's dangerous.

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He'll never veto tea party congress because he does, let's say in the

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first term, he'll have opposition in the Republican primaries by the

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President for the tea party. For the first four years, he has to do

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whatever the tea party says. Let's hear the voice? How are you saying

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that Romney is saying he's going to bomb Iran to smithereens, no-one's

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saying that. Every President's said they don't take use of force off

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the table. To suggest he's talking about bombing Iran, incorrect. How

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can you bring up the Middle East when all of candidate Obama's

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criticism of Bush on the Middle East and Obama's done nothing,

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there's been two weeks of high level meetings and nothing else, so

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there is no... People are very disappointed on the Middle East

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with Obama. That's one of the biggest criticisms. The man from

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the front row? I think one of the problems with Colleen and her side

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is they have Romnesia about how bad things were getting in 2008 and

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they were getting bad because of the take-over of the US with what

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is called the plutocrisy, the elite, which is monopolising the wealth in

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the US. That will continue under Romney with the tax proples. He

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paid 14.1% in the money he earned last year. When asked in 60 minutes

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he - if he thought that was fair he said yes. They don't work in the

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same world as us. Obama is coming in again and we'll speak next

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:14:16.:14:16.

Kwasi Kwarteng? I want to get back to what Mark said. Sorry, my poppy

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has fallen off. You can put it back on. I think what Mark said hit the

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nail on the head. He suggested that the deficit had doubled and that

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admittedly Obama came in with a huge fund of goodwill and people

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were supporting him, cheering, they realised it was an historic moment

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in America's history with the first African-American President, as

:14:40.:14:43.

Colleen suggested. But if you look at the last four years, what's

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happened to the American economy, the idea that you could spend your

:14:46.:14:50.

way out of a recession, that you could borrow more money. That's

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what has caused Obama's problem. He hasn't delivered on the economy.

:14:55.:14:58.

That's why he's under so much pressure in the next week. On

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foreign policy, I, like many people here, watched the third debate on

:15:04.:15:10.

foreign policy. I think Obama did well. He recovered from his first

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debate. But what struck me and many people watching the debate is how

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similar their foreign policy platforms were. I think there was a

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broad range of agreement. The number of times in which each

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candidate said, "I agree with Mr Romney, with Governor Romney, I

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agree with the President" is what was striking about that debate. I

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don't think foreign policy is going to be an issue in this election. It

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boils down to the Reagan question, "Are you better off today than you

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were four years ago?" From Obama's point of view I think too many

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people would answer in the negative to that question. He's under a lot

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of pressure. For that reason Romney deserve as really good look at.

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you would support a Romney presidency? I'm not an American, so

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I have the luxury of not having to decide. But on balance, looking at

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the economy, and I make my position clear, in Britain and the British

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debate, I'm very much in favour of what we call budget consolidation.

:16:11.:16:16.

We've got to look at the deficit. I don't believe you get out of a debt

:16:16.:16:20.

crisis by borrowing more and spending more. On that bases I

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would probably vote for Mitt Romney on economic grounds. The woman on

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the left. We heard that Obama is a progressive President, that he has

:16:32.:16:37.

ended wars, but what about the escalation of the drone war. I

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would say he hasn't been left enough. He's escalated the war.

:16:41.:16:46.

He's taken over from Bush and gone to town on it. In terms of the

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financial crisis perhaps it is a case of kicking the can down the

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road. Have we really engaged with the critical issues on the economy.

:16:55.:17:01.

So you would say he doesn't deserve another four years on the basis of

:17:01.:17:07.

the past four? I would never vote for Romney, never in a million

:17:07.:17:12.

years. I'm not appearing for him, that's for sure. There's a

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challenge for regressives, who are like, we don't want Romney in

:17:17.:17:22.

office. But we are not seeing much progress in terms of Guantanamo Bay

:17:22.:17:27.

either. So Liberals have a reason to be disappointed in this

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President. Shami Chakrabarti? spoke for me eloquently. I remember

:17:33.:17:41.

that great move day too and I had hope. How could you not be inspired

:17:41.:17:44.

by Obama who said Obama as elected as the President of the United

:17:44.:17:47.

States? He was a constitutional lawyer who promised to shut down

:17:47.:17:51.

Guantanamo Bay and didn't deliver on that promise. He did nothing

:17:51.:17:56.

about the Patriot Act, which has so intruded on the personal privacy

:17:56.:17:59.

and freedom of conscience of Americans. He hasn't ended

:17:59.:18:03.

detention without trial. And the drones. Not just allowing that

:18:03.:18:07.

terrible policy but having a kill list and leaking to the newspapers

:18:07.:18:10.

that he's personally responsible for every person who is

:18:10.:18:15.

assassinated by the drones. That is a terrible disappointment. On the

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other side of the balance sheet, on equality and non-discrimination,

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he's been good for women with fair pay and for gay people in terms of

:18:26.:18:29.

repealing some very discriminatory legislation. That's important to

:18:29.:18:36.

too. In tend it is about chairing choices so the voters get what they

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deserve. I'm afraid what I can tell Mr Romney isn't going to help with

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Guantanamo Bay and drones either, but he is going to be bad for women

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and bad for gay people. APPLAUSE too voted for Barack Obama four

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years ago. I was a little less likely to vote for him but did two

:18:56.:19:01.

weeks ago with my absentee ballot. But there is very little difference

:19:01.:19:07.

between the two based on their record. The reason I chose Obama

:19:07.:19:14.

was Paul Ryan. LAUGHTER The candidate for the vice-presidency?

:19:14.:19:20.

Of the Republican party. You say there is very little between them.

:19:20.:19:24.

Their record. Let's start with Obamacare. It's the single most

:19:24.:19:32.

powerful piece of legislation I would argue since... They stole

:19:32.:19:37.

Mitt Romney's Massachusetts plan. Exactly, but now he says on day one

:19:37.:19:44.

and I'm quoting him, I will repeal Obamacare. I think it is just

:19:44.:19:49.

morally, how dare you run for President of the United States to

:19:49.:19:53.

be leader of the whole nation and to say that the first thing you're

:19:53.:19:58.

going to do, the thing that will put your face on Mount Rushmore, is

:19:58.:20:02.

that by God we will repeal that legislation, which gives healthcare

:20:02.:20:07.

to 30 million Americans. It is so easy for the rest of us to say,

:20:07.:20:13.

"Don't worry about it. Jerry, what about the deficit? Here's the

:20:13.:20:18.

deficit. One person raised the issue of the deficit when we went

:20:18.:20:23.

to war in Iraq. Don't worry, we are not going to raise your taxes...

:20:23.:20:29.

not going to raise your taxes... APPLAUSE You are a British

:20:29.:20:32.

politician who lovers his NHS. Don't tell the Americans they can't

:20:32.:20:41.

have a little bit of health insurance. APPLAUSE Your issue with

:20:41.:20:48.

the Iraq war. I'm not saying what the second President Bush was right.

:20:48.:20:53.

He was terrible for the finances of America, I completely accept that.

:20:53.:21:01.

But when you are facing a $16 trillion deficit -- a debt, forgive

:21:01.:21:05.

me. Over time you have to deal with the deficit. But the time for

:21:06.:21:09.

spending is not in a recession. You have to have people who can spend

:21:09.:21:15.

money, or no company will do well. On this point of the NHS and of the

:21:15.:21:20.

Obamacare. Do you believe that, as Jerry says, it is the thing he does

:21:20.:21:24.

on day one? I thought there were problems on doing it at all.

:21:24.:21:30.

big issues are the jobs, deficit and the economy, and Obamacare is

:21:30.:21:33.

going to cause huge problems for the economy. You talked about is

:21:33.:21:36.

there a difference between the two? There's a huge difference. Just

:21:36.:21:41.

look at the background of Romney. Obama talks about the fact he was

:21:41.:21:47.

going to be a healer. Romney worked with a legislates ture in

:21:47.:21:52.

Massachusetts which was 87% Democrats. He changed a $3 billion

:21:52.:21:57.

deficit into a $2 billion surplus. This is a man who came from a rich

:21:57.:22:02.

family and he gave away his inheritance to say, "I want to make

:22:03.:22:07.

this on my own" and he did it. He built up as a successful

:22:07.:22:10.

businessman without taking a penny from his parents. He's a successful

:22:11.:22:17.

politician in a Democratic state. And he goes on to the winter

:22:17.:22:22.

Olympics in Utah, scandal-ridden and in debt, and turned it around.

:22:23.:22:28.

You have an individual who is a problem solver, a pragmatist. Who

:22:28.:22:31.

has been faced with problems and has turned them around. This is why

:22:31.:22:36.

it is so close. People think he can make a difference. On day

:22:36.:22:42.

Washington in addition reducing the corporate tax rate in addition to

:22:42.:22:47.

solving the entitlements. There are not many voters here so we can cut

:22:47.:22:51.

the message. The audience is completely anti-Romney and they

:22:51.:22:57.

don't know anything about him. Look at the first debate. You have the

:22:57.:23:02.

stereotype that many Americans have. I want to steal a question which

:23:02.:23:12.
:23:12.:23:12.

isn't fair of me, from David Mummery and put it to you. Will the

:23:12.:23:16.

world be a safer or more dangerous place if Mitt Romney becomes

:23:16.:23:22.

President? If he follows through on declaring China as a currency

:23:22.:23:26.

manipulator on day one, that's dangerous. If he follows through on

:23:26.:23:30.

what he said on his approach for the Iranian issue before the last

:23:30.:23:36.

debate, the world will be a more dangerous place. If he follows

:23:36.:23:41.

through on abandoning the Palestinian issue... Let me pick up

:23:41.:23:48.

on an important point that Kwasi made. You have to be serious about

:23:48.:23:54.

the deficit and he is right. Kwasi and I know that you cannot get rid

:23:54.:23:59.

of a deficit unless you are willing to raise taxes as well as clear

:23:59.:24:03.

spending. Mr Romney has said there'll be no tax rises on anyone.

:24:03.:24:07.

He's also promised 20% tax cuts and said he will make up the difference.

:24:07.:24:14.

You know as well as I do, Kwasi, come on, you can't run and say you

:24:14.:24:19.

will limb that a deficit but by the way no-one is going to pay a penny

:24:19.:24:25.

in taxes. That is just not honen honest. APPLAUSE A couple more

:24:25.:24:29.

points from the audience. Thank you. I was just going to refer to

:24:29.:24:37.

Kwasi's point about the deficit reduction. That is irrelevant. I

:24:37.:24:42.

would much more prefer Obama to Romney. The deficit is supposed to

:24:42.:24:47.

be reduced in this country but hate gone up. Everyone is quoting it has

:24:47.:24:57.
:24:57.:24:57.

gone down by a quarter. The share of GDP has gone down. No, in

:24:57.:25:01.

absolute terms the deficit has gone down. The annual borrowing is

:25:01.:25:06.

increasing at the moment. I think Romney is a dislikeable character,

:25:06.:25:11.

he doesn't seem to stand for very much, but he ran the winter

:25:11.:25:15.

Olympics well, he has a good record in Massachusetts. Unlike a lot of

:25:15.:25:21.

politicians in the UK, he's done other things in his life. He hasn't

:25:21.:25:24.

joined the Conservative Central Office or the Labour Party and

:25:24.:25:29.

worked his way um as a researcher. Are you speaking to these two?

:25:29.:25:34.

specifically but people in politics. He's been in business, delivered

:25:34.:25:38.

for big organisations. And you think that's a deciding factor?

:25:38.:25:42.

you are choosing someone as an executive you need experience.

:25:42.:25:48.

must move away from the American elections. We have the result on

:25:48.:25:58.
:25:58.:26:15.

Tuesday night. We've got other Another question please. This one

:26:15.:26:19.

from Rebecca Ellis. Is Nick Clegg right to claim that bringing powers

:26:19.:26:24.

back from Brussels is a false promise wrapped in a Union Jack?

:26:24.:26:29.

This was a quote from Nick Clegg today, the claim that powers could

:26:29.:26:32.

be repatriated was a false promise wrapped in a Union Jack. He was

:26:32.:26:35.

critical about the proposals for going to Brussels and trying to

:26:35.:26:42.

reduce the amount we paid into the EU. David Miliband? I think that

:26:42.:26:47.

the fact that no other country supports the repatriation of powers

:26:48.:26:52.

from the European Union means that it is impossible to get powers back.

:26:52.:26:56.

The fact is you need all 27 European countries to agree to

:26:56.:26:59.

treaty change and not one supports that. The priority they've got is

:27:00.:27:04.

sorting tout eurozone mess, and my God they should have sorted it out

:27:04.:27:08.

two or three years ago. That's the overwhelming priority. Secondly, to

:27:08.:27:13.

pick up David's second point, we have a desperate need for reform of

:27:13.:27:18.

the EU budget. We have to get it out of supporting cows, sheep and

:27:18.:27:23.

goats and into supporting skills, universities and innovation. We've

:27:23.:27:26.

got a Government that declared its intention at the beginning as

:27:26.:27:30.

focusing on the sum total that's being spent, not what it is being

:27:30.:27:36.

spent on. Secondly, they have forsaken our allies in northern

:27:36.:27:39.

Europe, in Germany and Holland and in the new Eastern European

:27:39.:27:42.

countries. That's why we've found ourselves completely isolated in

:27:42.:27:48.

the case for reforming the EU budget. It is important for a

:27:48.:27:53.

British audience to know that the way to get our net contribution

:27:53.:27:58.

down is to reform the EU budget. Because the Common Agricultural

:27:58.:28:03.

Policy, which consumes a lot of the EU budget, because of the Common

:28:03.:28:05.

Agricultural Policy that we end up having to have a rebate in the

:28:05.:28:10.

first place. Reform the budget and then you can get on with a lower

:28:10.:28:13.

net contribution from Britain. I think that's why Nick Clegg is

:28:13.:28:18.

right to say Britain is weak in the negotiating chambers of the

:28:18.:28:22.

European Union today. We are in this third tier. The danger is we

:28:22.:28:26.

are going to end up in the fourth tier as well. I don't want to see

:28:26.:28:35.

Your Government gave up some of the rebate we had in Europe and last

:28:35.:28:42.

night you went into the lobby, did you? I always vote Labour. Exactly,

:28:42.:28:46.

regardless of the question. Let's pick up the point. Saying our

:28:46.:28:49.

contribution should be... Let's pick up both those points. First of

:28:49.:28:53.

all, we negotiated in 2005 for the first time ever, instead of Britain

:28:53.:28:56.

paying three times as much contribution as France, we would

:28:56.:29:01.

pay the same as France and secondly we negotiated the enlargement of

:29:01.:29:03.

the European Union which the Conservative Party and the Liberal

:29:03.:29:08.

Democrats both supported and the budget went up to pay for the

:29:09.:29:12.

historic enlargement of the European Union. David... Let me

:29:13.:29:19.

finish the point then take me on. The world's changed since 2005-06,

:29:19.:29:23.

we have had a financial crisis, we need to cut our deficit at home and

:29:23.:29:26.

to make sure we reduce spending in Europe as well. I think there's

:29:26.:29:30.

been a real problem for pro- Europeans like me. We've seemed

:29:30.:29:34.

like we'd always wanted more spending and seemed like we were

:29:34.:29:40.

sort of soft he-headed about more spending. You have a repositioning

:29:40.:29:45.

in the Labour Party to take on this idea that to be pro-European you

:29:45.:29:49.

are always more more spending but we are not, we are more more

:29:49.:29:51.

effective European Union. What happened last night, and I just

:29:51.:29:56.

wanted to two back to Rebecca's question first of all, it's not

:29:56.:30:01.

true to say that it's impossible to get back powers. People said it was

:30:01.:30:05.

impossible when Margaret Thatcher got back some of the rebate. They

:30:06.:30:09.

said she wouldn't bother and she wouldn't get agreement. But she

:30:09.:30:12.

managed through tough negotiation to claw back some of that money.

:30:12.:30:15.

What happened last night in the House of Commons was a spectacle,

:30:15.:30:20.

if you liex, of sheer opportunism on the part of the Labour Party --

:30:20.:30:22.

if you like. They are playing Parliamentary games, they see there

:30:22.:30:25.

was a significant portion of the Conservative Party that was going

:30:25.:30:28.

to oppose the Government and they did what oppositions do, they used

:30:28.:30:32.

their numbers to defeat the Government. It has nothing to do

:30:32.:30:36.

with Labour's actual position because, as David was suggesting,

:30:36.:30:42.

they actually increased the amounts of money they gave to the EU budget.

:30:42.:30:49.

So for David Miliband now to pirouette and suggest this is a

:30:49.:30:53.

real struggle and now he's supporting cutting the budget, I

:30:53.:30:58.

think is completely disingenuous. I think the Labour Party is very

:30:58.:31:01.

consistently for the EU, they want the closer I think integration,

:31:01.:31:04.

they still haven't ruled out joining the euro currency and so

:31:04.:31:08.

for them to pretend that they were more Euro-Sceptic and willing to

:31:08.:31:12.

cut the budget was purely opportunistic.

:31:12.:31:17.

You, Sir? Doesn't the dispute last night in

:31:17.:31:20.

Parliament actually represent what the majority of the British people

:31:20.:31:24.

feel that we should be reducing costs in Europe by actually having

:31:24.:31:30.

a referendum on our membership of Europe?

:31:30.:31:36.

APPLAUSE I think the referendum issue... The vote in Parliament,

:31:36.:31:40.

did it represent the views of the British people? The opportunism of

:31:40.:31:45.

the Labour Party. I disagree. It shows that a lot of people in the

:31:46.:31:50.

country are unhappy with our relationship in Europe. Thing's

:31:50.:31:53.

true. I think Labour and Conservative do not do us justice

:31:53.:31:57.

as a democracy of offering us a referendum, years ahead, always

:31:57.:32:02.

after the event. I think that the Conservative Party, a section of

:32:03.:32:07.

them, was against it, wanted to cut the budget that we were spending or

:32:07.:32:09.

the amount we were paying, which was right. The Prime Minister's

:32:09.:32:15.

view was that this was not a position which we'd be able to get

:32:15.:32:21.

support around and it was very unlikely if he went there, he'd

:32:21.:32:25.

unlikely get support there. He was arguing that we should freeze nit

:32:25.:32:28.

real terms. Doesn't the problem come back to the British people as

:32:28.:32:36.

a whole, we are very unhappy with our relationship? I agree. The vote

:32:36.:32:41.

was 74-75... You, Sir? I agree with that gentleman. Last night it

:32:41.:32:44.

showed our politicians have completely lost faith in Europe. I

:32:45.:32:49.

just think it's laughable that David's party last night had the

:32:49.:32:53.

opportunity to say you have been so pro-up for the past 13 years,

:32:53.:32:59.

suddenly in one night to go, actually I think maybe not, is just

:32:59.:33:03.

opportunistic and a chance to have a go at the Tories in the last

:33:03.:33:10.

three years. That's all you've done with no real alternative whatsoever.

:33:10.:33:18.

Colleen Graffy? Well, I take my law students on a field trip every year

:33:18.:33:21.

to see the European Parliament and we go to Brussels and we also go to

:33:22.:33:25.

Strasbourg to see the European Parliament and if you've not

:33:25.:33:29.

witnessed that, it's something to behold. The building in Strasbourg

:33:29.:33:33.

is absolutely magnificent, but the idea that you have all of these

:33:33.:33:37.

members of European Parliament that are decampling from Brussels to

:33:37.:33:42.

Strasbourg and from Strasbourg to Brussels and the hotels and the air

:33:42.:33:51.

fares and the carbon, it's just a scandal. So I...

:33:51.:33:55.

APPLAUSE So I actually Laud the 53 Tory

:33:55.:33:59.

rebels because I think that their heart was in the right place

:33:59.:34:02.

because they really do believe there needs to be cutbacks on the

:34:02.:34:06.

EU. I also have to say that we know for 13 years that Labour did

:34:06.:34:13.

nothing to cut the costs in the EU and it was cynical and

:34:13.:34:18.

opportunistic, sorry, David. Sorry. Chakrabarti? I wonder if it

:34:18.:34:22.

would ever be possible to have a different kind of debate about

:34:22.:34:27.

Europe that doesn't turn everybody in this room or everybody in Europe

:34:27.:34:33.

into either a rampant xenophobe on the one hand or a fat cat

:34:33.:34:35.

complacent bloated bureaucrat on the other hand. Is it possible,

:34:35.:34:39.

instead of saying are we for or against Europe and the ocean, is it

:34:39.:34:43.

possible to say what kind of Europe, what kind of Europe, who is it

:34:43.:34:48.

working for, who sit - who is it working against, what values should

:34:48.:34:54.

it protect, what priorities should it have, who is it accountable to?

:34:54.:34:59.

That's the tkpe bait -- debate I would like to have if it's possible

:34:59.:35:03.

in any party. I would like to see some powers seriously looked at

:35:03.:35:06.

again. The euro arrest warrant that treats Europe as if it's one

:35:06.:35:09.

country when the standards in the police stations and courts are so

:35:09.:35:12.

different. We shouldn't be carted off from one part to another

:35:12.:35:17.

without protections. Yes, the budget ought to be looked at, but

:35:17.:35:21.

opportunism isn't the monopoly of any particular party. Hang on, one

:35:21.:35:26.

of the things I've been most concerned is about the way that

:35:26.:35:30.

some people in Kwasi's party have deliberately pretended that the

:35:30.:35:33.

Council of Europe is the same as the European Parliament. They

:35:33.:35:37.

haven't done that. They have because they want to rip up the

:35:37.:35:43.

convention on human rights that's protected people from arbitration

:35:43.:35:47.

and it's Churchill's legacy and some people in your party want to

:35:47.:35:52.

rip it up a. That would be a disgrace. Thank you. We haven't

:35:52.:35:56.

done that. Where is the xenophobia you talk about? What I'm saying is,

:35:56.:36:00.

you don't have to be a xenophobe to be concerned about the budget and

:36:00.:36:04.

you don't have to be a bloated bureaucrat to think that Europe has

:36:05.:36:09.

done good things for peace and prosperity in Europe. Swrecked a

:36:09.:36:14.

more intelligent debate. -- we could have a more intelligent

:36:14.:36:20.

debate. You, Sir? Picking up on what Chakrabarti just said, is

:36:20.:36:24.

David Cameron and the Conservative Party responsible for misleading

:36:24.:36:29.

the public about Europe by highlighting cases that are quite

:36:29.:36:34.

rare like cases which people disagree about human rights when

:36:34.:36:38.

he's actually quite clearly pro- Europe because he doesn't want a

:36:38.:36:43.

referendum on it and he knows the economic benefit of it? That's a

:36:43.:36:47.

really interesting point. People are worried about the economy and

:36:47.:36:51.

budgets and it's so easy a distraction to say two fingers to

:36:51.:36:54.

the Court of Human Rights and we'll pull out of the convention on human

:36:54.:36:57.

rites. You are saying it's not the same thing. We'll leave that point

:36:57.:37:03.

and come back to the EU and whether we are wrapping ourselfs in the

:37:03.:37:09.

Union Jack by promising to repatriate powers. What is your

:37:09.:37:14.

view?, Jerry Springer? I'll have to check with President Obama. I'm

:37:14.:37:17.

least qualified on this panel to speak of this issue, I don't live

:37:18.:37:23.

with it every day as you do. you see Europe as a force in the

:37:23.:37:27.

world? I absolutely do. I think what will happen, and I can say

:37:27.:37:33.

this because I won't be alive by then, but the next 20, 30 years,

:37:33.:37:41.

nations will be less relevant. We are already seeing in this

:37:41.:37:46.

globalisation in the way we communicate with each other, our

:37:46.:37:53.

economies, our values, what we think is important. I think

:37:53.:37:57.

countries at some point will have the same relevance as various

:37:58.:38:02.

states have within the United States. In other words, we no

:38:02.:38:09.

longer will have this. What would what would you say about China, the

:38:09.:38:12.

emergence of that, it's a nation state. You don't think it will be

:38:12.:38:18.

an election state? No, again you will have to find me if you are

:38:18.:38:25.

willing to go to hell and you will find me! I hope you last more than

:38:25.:38:35.

20 years, Jerry! You are only 68. Well... What have you done? Have

:38:35.:38:45.
:38:45.:38:49.

you not seen my show?! Iex China is not going to be this country in 20,

:38:50.:38:53.

30 years from now. Individual Governments are having less and

:38:53.:38:57.

less power over their people. With technology what it is today,

:38:58.:39:01.

Governments can no longer control people, they don't want to be cold.

:39:01.:39:05.

They can get information on their own and they are going to get

:39:05.:39:13.

interests on their own and it isn't going to matter as much to people.

:39:13.:39:17.

This is inevitable. The flag waivers of any particular country

:39:17.:39:21.

30 years from now will be in the minority. Take a look at America.

:39:21.:39:27.

20 or 30 years from now, whites will not be 50% of America any more.

:39:27.:39:33.

It will be the majority of Hispanic, African-American and other

:39:33.:39:36.

minorities. The complexion of every country in the world is ultimately

:39:36.:39:44.

going to strange. This is straying a bit from the EU. No, you ask me...

:39:44.:39:51.

It's the big picture. Go for the big picture! I'm going to defend

:39:51.:39:54.

Jerry because you are being naughty and sarcastic here. The big point

:39:55.:40:02.

is this - this is a shrinking interconnected world and there's

:40:02.:40:06.

going to come a point where we have to decide whether we want to be,

:40:06.:40:10.

you know, foreigners in most parts of the world or human beings

:40:10.:40:14.

everywhere and I think that's a point he's made very well. Hold on

:40:14.:40:20.

a second. Very briefly. David you first then you Kwasi? A massive

:40:20.:40:25.

leadership transition is going on not just in America next week but

:40:25.:40:28.

in China.Ership is changing. The first generation of Chinese leaders

:40:28.:40:32.

who've grown up in a China that was opening up to the rest of the world,

:40:32.:40:36.

the new leadership will have been in their teens in 1978 when China

:40:36.:40:39.

started opening up. My belief is, not like Jerry, that somehow China

:40:39.:40:44.

is going to fall apart, but that group of leaders do understand that

:40:44.:40:48.

China needs radical change to continue to engage with this

:40:48.:40:50.

interconnected world. There's a very important point for us. The

:40:51.:40:56.

truth is that there's an option for countries like ours. You can say,

:40:56.:40:58.

and I don't know whether Kwasi would say this, but the Prime

:40:58.:41:03.

Minister has - the world and future is going to be about flexible

:41:03.:41:08.

networks and that somehow we are going to have close relations with

:41:08.:41:11.

Vietnam, 80 or 90 million people, as we do with Germany. The

:41:11.:41:14.

alternative view is that the world is becoming smaller but the

:41:14.:41:18.

neighbourhood in which you live is going to be incredibly important

:41:18.:41:24.

and we'll always have more in common and rely on our partnerships

:41:24.:41:27.

with Germany than we will with countries like Vietnam. The reason

:41:27.:41:31.

is this - if you are China and you have Britain as a strong part of

:41:31.:41:34.

the European Union knobing on your door about trade or the environment

:41:34.:41:38.

or human rights, we are going to take far more notice of a country

:41:38.:41:41.

like Britain if we are part of the EU than if we are separate. That is

:41:41.:41:46.

the whois we face. Do we go for a world where we have bilateral

:41:46.:41:50.

relations one-on-one, or do we say, those bilateral relations should be

:41:50.:41:53.

strengthened by strong, regional associations that respect national

:41:53.:41:57.

identity but also bring to bear the power that come through being 27

:41:57.:42:01.

together. I put myself in that latter camp because I think that

:42:01.:42:04.

around the world you are going to see in South America, Africa,

:42:04.:42:07.

actually in Asia itself, regional alliances growing that are going to

:42:07.:42:12.

shape the modern world. APPLAUSE

:42:12.:42:17.

I have a slightly different view from David in the brief time that

:42:17.:42:20.

I've followed and been involved in British politics, the attitude

:42:20.:42:25.

towards the EU, that's specifically what we are talking about, as moved

:42:25.:42:29.

away. People did share the internationalism that you talked

:42:29.:42:34.

about, certainly in the '70s and '80s. I was a week old when that

:42:34.:42:39.

referendum took place in 1975 and I can assure you, I don't remember

:42:39.:42:43.

anything about it. People under if age of 53 have never had a say. If

:42:43.:42:47.

you look at the climate today in Britain, the attitudes towards

:42:47.:42:50.

Europe, I think people are very proud of their country and they

:42:50.:42:53.

want to have independence, they want to have a sense in which they

:42:53.:42:58.

are in charge of Britain's own destiny. I don't see the world

:42:59.:43:01.

moulding into this big global Government in the way that people

:43:01.:43:05.

on the panel have described. I think people are very conscious and

:43:05.:43:09.

proud of being British. Doesn't mean they are not international

:43:09.:43:12.

focused but they want to preserve a degree of independence.

:43:12.:43:16.

Thank you. I have a problem because there are

:43:16.:43:19.

a lot of people with their hands up and we could go on talking about

:43:19.:43:22.

Europe for the rest of the programme but we have other

:43:22.:43:27.

questions. I want to take this one from John Lamb. Just before you put

:43:27.:43:31.

it, this is one that's of a local political issue with worldwide

:43:31.:43:35.

implications. John Lamb? Is the Energy Minister right in saying

:43:35.:43:41.

there are enough onshore turbines, or is he tilting at windmills?

:43:41.:43:45.

new emergency minister, John Hayes, who came in and said that enough is

:43:46.:43:52.

enough, we've got enough windmills and by implication, wind power,

:43:52.:43:56.

send it packing because of the disturbance and trouble it causes.

:43:56.:44:00.

Of course it goes to the heart of the I have been yew about green

:44:00.:44:07.

energy and all of that -- heart of the issue about green energy and

:44:07.:44:10.

all that. Jerry Springer, you are in favour of that and Barack Obama

:44:10.:44:20.
:44:20.:44:22.

is, I'm told? So therefore it's So therefore it is good! Yes, we

:44:22.:44:27.

have to have them. It is not the only answer. We've got to find all

:44:27.:44:34.

kinds of sources of energy. Yes, we are still going to have oil and

:44:34.:44:40.

rely on gas. But we have to go green as well. Do you think wind

:44:40.:44:45.

power works? Is it efficient? some places yes, to some degree yes.

:44:45.:44:55.

Over time perhaps more. With more innovation, more. It's absurd I

:44:55.:45:00.

think to believe that we can just continue to say oil is the answer,

:45:00.:45:06.

oil is the answer, oil is the answer. We can't. Time is not on

:45:06.:45:10.

our side. Speaking of China, as we have more and more consumers of

:45:11.:45:16.

this energy, it's going to become less and less available. No country

:45:16.:45:20.

in the world is going to be able to dig its way out of the energy

:45:20.:45:27.

crisis by just getting more oil under its land. Which by the way it

:45:27.:45:33.

is not even a moral answer. Would we be OK to say that if oil is in

:45:33.:45:38.

Iraq and Iran they get to keep all of their oil and to hell with the

:45:38.:45:43.

rest of the world? No, we want to be able to trade and share. The

:45:43.:45:48.

whole world is going to need energy, so yes we are going to need

:45:48.:45:52.

windmills. No-one is going to want a windmill I'm sure in the middle

:45:52.:45:57.

of Hampstead heath, but at some point we are going to have them

:45:57.:46:02.

some place. There are a lot of people for green energy that want

:46:02.:46:10.

it over there. Colleen Graffy? you impressed that I said hatch

:46:10.:46:17.

said heath? It was very impressive. I think wind farms are an

:46:17.:46:20.

interesting topic because you have environmental issues on both sides.

:46:20.:46:26.

You have those who want wind to be part of our National Grid. Wind

:46:26.:46:34.

energy. It also is a blight on the horizon to have these huge

:46:34.:46:38.

stretchers. So for the United States, America is I think the

:46:38.:46:41.

second largest provider of wind energy and Texas is the number one

:46:41.:46:48.

state providing it. But it is only 3% of our energy. America is huge,

:46:48.:46:54.

so we've got about 84 people per square mile in the United States

:46:54.:46:58.

and you have 640 per square mile. So if you are going to try to have

:46:58.:47:05.

renewable energy, as I believe the European directive is 15% of your

:47:05.:47:09.

national power, I'm not sure you are going to do it all with wind

:47:09.:47:14.

power. I think that John Hayes was tapping into something. Perhaps he

:47:14.:47:18.

was off script, but he was tapping into something in recognising that

:47:18.:47:21.

people feel that perhaps the capacity for wind power has been

:47:21.:47:27.

met. It also Costas lot of money. It's expensive. You, we, are the

:47:27.:47:31.

ones that are subsidising it. The Government is not subsidising it.

:47:31.:47:35.

We want to keep the lights switched on but we want them switched on at

:47:35.:47:42.

a price that we can afford. OK. windmills are aesthetically not

:47:42.:47:46.

pleasing. That's undeniable, but more than that it is completely

:47:46.:47:50.

inefficient. We live on an island, surrounded by water. Surely we need

:47:50.:47:53.

to be able to harness that power and recognise that there are other

:47:53.:47:59.

methods, other green methods, that aren't oil - obviously - which mean

:47:59.:48:05.

we can live sustainably and provide enough energy that we need. Kwasi

:48:05.:48:09.

Kwarteng, I'm puzzled, have we got a new Government policy from this

:48:10.:48:15.

Minister? I think he was slightly off script. He's only just taken on

:48:16.:48:20.

the job He was making a broads point, that we are not going to

:48:20.:48:25.

cover... Enough is enough. That's not a broad point. It was part of a

:48:25.:48:30.

broader debate. Where he was coming from, I think, is that we are not

:48:30.:48:35.

going to cover every square metre from Land's End to John o'Groats

:48:35.:48:41.

with windmills. There'll come a point where we'll be saturated with

:48:41.:48:45.

windmills. What Jerry said about diversity of provision is key to

:48:45.:48:50.

this debate. Will you stop - not stop talking - when you've done the

:48:51.:48:56.

present proposed number? I'm not sure what the limit will be.

:48:56.:49:02.

Chancellor seems to be against them.. There is scepticism about

:49:02.:49:06.

the capacity, that windmill will be the solution to our energy problem.

:49:06.:49:13.

Why not put the windmills in front of Parliament and open the windows?

:49:13.:49:19.

APPLAUSE Actually we could have one on Question Time. Not facing the

:49:19.:49:24.

audience, the panel. David Miliband? Look, we've got an

:49:24.:49:27.

environmental vice is of overwhelming proportions. We are

:49:27.:49:30.

going to need every conceivable source of low-carbon energy that we

:49:30.:49:35.

can find. As it happens this country, and to pick up the lady's

:49:35.:49:40.

point, a really good point, this country is a world leader in

:49:40.:49:45.

offshore wind. We are going to need onshore wind as well. But honestly

:49:45.:49:49.

you've got the Liberal Democrat Secretary of State arguing with the

:49:49.:49:53.

Conservative Energy Minister about 1% of our energy. The truth is if

:49:53.:49:58.

you care about the energy mix and about low-carbon, 30% of our energy

:49:58.:50:04.

comes from coal at the moment. It comes from coal that isn't dug from

:50:04.:50:09.

this country. It is imported from Russia. The biggest thing we can do

:50:09.:50:15.

to contribute to a global challenge as well as ensure cost of supply is

:50:15.:50:20.

to switch from having 30% coal to having putting that 30% into gas.

:50:21.:50:25.

Gas is being discovered all around the world, including in America,

:50:25.:50:29.

shale gas, and we are going to need the wind. But the truth is to

:50:29.:50:34.

debate 1% when you've got 30% coal, we are not doing justisto the

:50:34.:50:42.

environmental challenge, never mind the energy challenge. I don't see

:50:42.:50:47.

how wind energy is going to help us in the future. I don't understand

:50:47.:50:52.

why everyone is so anti-nuclear. You can look at Fukushima, but

:50:52.:50:58.

there's nuclear plants all over the world. Fukushima was old anyway. It

:50:58.:51:05.

was an ancient bit of kit The future, inside this country, to me

:51:05.:51:09.

wind farms is a propeller and nuclear is a jet engine. I don't

:51:09.:51:14.

understand why everyone is so anti- nuclear now. Alright. Shami

:51:14.:51:19.

Chakrabarti? I think we've got a real problem here in that we need a

:51:19.:51:22.

long-material, sustainable policy for sustainable energy, in terms of

:51:22.:51:26.

the environment and in terms of energy security, as David Miliband

:51:26.:51:31.

indicated. We need to develop a consensus that is informed by the

:51:31.:51:35.

science and that is a consensus that deals with different parts of

:51:35.:51:41.

the country, where people live and maybe don't want certain things in

:51:41.:51:46.

their back yard. You can't achieve consensus in one department between

:51:46.:51:50.

two Ministers, how on earth are we going to begin to build a

:51:50.:51:53.

sustainable policy and long-term consensus that we need throughout

:51:53.:51:57.

the whole country for decades ahead? OK. We have four minutes

:51:57.:52:05.

left. One more question, from Rosie McTaggart please.

:52:06.:52:08.

Was Dame Helen Ghosh right to accuse David Cameron of freezing

:52:08.:52:13.

women out of senior Government positions in favour of an old

:52:13.:52:17.

Etonian clique? She is the first female Permanent Secretary at the

:52:17.:52:20.

Home Office, talking to students it's a Cambridge University, and

:52:20.:52:23.

said women didn't get into Government, and David Cameron froze

:52:23.:52:30.

them out in favour of old Etonians. One of which is sitting on my right,

:52:30.:52:36.

except he is not in Government. not in Government. I'm not part of

:52:36.:52:40.

the clique. How many old Etonians are there? Not as many as people

:52:40.:52:44.

say. When Margaret Thatcher started in 1979 there were six old Etonians

:52:44.:52:48.

in the Cabinet. I think the number now is probably one. It is easy to

:52:48.:52:53.

mock and it is quite a funny story, but I don't think it is a

:52:53.:52:56.

reflection of where we are coming from. What about four women in

:52:56.:53:02.

Cabinet? I think we could have more, but the parliamentary party didn't

:53:02.:53:07.

have that ma historically. I'm not sure whether David Cameron has

:53:07.:53:12.

binders full of women. But the issue, as Romney suggested, that

:53:12.:53:16.

some very capable women have come into the parliamentary party on the

:53:16.:53:20.

Conservative side in 2010. A number have been made undersecretaries in

:53:20.:53:25.

the last shuffle. I'm sure that by the end of the Parliament and going

:53:25.:53:28.

forward there'll be many more Conservative women serving in the

:53:28.:53:32.

Cabinet. The trajectory is in the right direction. The Conservative

:53:32.:53:36.

Party, did they do everything right on the last 20 years on this?

:53:36.:53:40.

Probably not. There were failings, but the movement is in the right

:53:40.:53:43.

direction. I think there is improvement. I think we'll be in a

:53:43.:53:47.

much stronger position in the years to come. Did the number of women in

:53:47.:53:54.

the Cabinet rise or fall in the It stayed the same Fell actually. I

:53:54.:54:03.

think it stayed the same. shouldn't be staying the same. Dame

:54:03.:54:08.

Helen Ghosh is an extremely careful and judicious person. For her to

:54:08.:54:14.

lay into the Government in this way is pretty extraordinary. What about

:54:14.:54:18.

the old Etonian element? What I do think, after 13 years in Government,

:54:18.:54:22.

one of the big problems with the Brown Government at the end was it

:54:22.:54:26.

was closing the shutters. It was not opening up the debate. If this

:54:26.:54:31.

is happening in the new Government after two years, that's a real

:54:31.:54:37.

problem. It's a real problem for the Tories. Shoe worry about it. We

:54:37.:54:41.

in Labour can't rest on our laurels. None of news the political class

:54:41.:54:45.

can sit here and say our parties are representative enough of the

:54:45.:54:49.

geography of the country, of the different social classes in the

:54:49.:54:52.

country, of the different ethnicities, never mind the men and

:54:52.:54:57.

women in the country. I hope while Labour people enjoy the discomfort

:54:57.:55:01.

caused to the Tories on this, we need to make our party more

:55:01.:55:04.

representative and change the way we do politics. That's only way to

:55:04.:55:08.

make sure it matters for ordinary people. APPLAUSE

:55:08.:55:18.
:55:18.:55:27.

Colleen? Well, I think, I worked for con least ska rice. She was

:55:27.:55:31.

fantastic -- Condoleezza Rice. If you want to change a country you

:55:31.:55:36.

need to work with educating women. So across the board of course we

:55:36.:55:41.

want women in politics, but not just to have a woman there. So I

:55:41.:55:47.

really would want to say, hopefully they are all qualified but we just

:55:47.:55:52.

don't want woman there because you want a female. Can I speak? Yes.

:55:52.:55:58.

That's the general idea. As a woman. I'm not going to make the Etonian

:55:58.:56:04.

point, because quasi-is a young Etonian here, and it is in his own

:56:04.:56:08.

way is saying something very important by being here tonight. He

:56:08.:56:14.

will send a signal to lots of black men in the country, and and that's

:56:15.:56:19.

is really important too. There simply are not enough women in

:56:19.:56:21.

Government. Yes, not enough in Parliament but not enough in

:56:21.:56:27.

Government. Liberty is a cross- party, non-party organisation. I've

:56:27.:56:30.

met lots of brilliant young women in your party and they could have

:56:30.:56:37.

been promoted by now. This is good politics as well as an equity issue.

:56:37.:56:40.

You want people to identify with you. You want people to vote for

:56:40.:56:46.

you. It says something about your values and who you are. I agree.

:56:46.:56:53.

APPLAUSE Briefly if you would. is clearly been a problem in

:56:53.:57:01.

America, where often times we have a Government, a political party,

:57:01.:57:05.

that doesn't believe that women are equal, no matter how many you put

:57:05.:57:09.

in Cabinet positions, that they don't permit women to make

:57:09.:57:13.

decisions about their own personal lives and health, that it is

:57:13.:57:17.

condescending that the way we even talk about this issue, "Let's bring

:57:17.:57:22.

the women in, they're really good." Men should just shut up when it

:57:22.:57:27.

comes to women's issues about their own bodies, their own health, what

:57:27.:57:32.

they want to do with their lives. We've grown up in a culture that is

:57:32.:57:38.

so male oriented, we got a lot of work to do, but the best thing we

:57:38.:57:43.

can do is total, total equality for women, not because men are giving

:57:43.:57:48.

it to them, but because by birth they are equal. And a woman

:57:48.:57:56.

President in 2016? Yes. APPLAUSE And I think a woman President. In

:57:56.:58:02.

fact, someone with the last name Clinton. That's very representative.

:58:02.:58:07.

APPLAUSE That's the equivalent of having old Etonians in Cabinet

:58:07.:58:12.

having another Clinton. We've got to stop. Our time is up. Apologies.

:58:12.:58:16.

We only have an hour. I would like an hour and a half. I would like

:58:16.:58:22.

two hours, but they will only give us one hour. Next week we are going

:58:22.:58:24.

us one hour. Next week we are going be in Bexhill. We've got David

:58:24.:58:32.

blunt on our panel, with Shirley Williams and Chuka Umunna. The week

:58:32.:58:42.

that have we'll be in Corby. Visit our website. Or call us if you

:58:42.:58:46.

prefer that. Before that, American election night. I will be in

:58:46.:58:50.

Washington. We've got panellist there is, reporters, experts for

:58:50.:58:54.

the BBC results programme, US election night 2012. It is here on

:58:54.:58:59.

BBC One, 11.30pm on Tuesday evening and throughout the night. It has

:58:59.:59:04.

David Dimbleby presents from central London in the week before the US presidential election. On the panel are former foreign secretary David Miliband, US television presenter and former Democratic Party mayor of Cincinnati Jerry Springer, Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng, Colleen Graffy, former chairman of Republicans Abroad, and Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty.


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