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QUESTION TIME FKR Y895P/01 BRD000000 | 2:00:00 | 2:00:00 | |
. | 2:38:24 | 2:38:31 | |
Good evening, this week's Question Time comes from Slough. | 2:38:36 | 2:38:40 | |
A big welcome to our audience here, and, of course, to our panel - | 2:38:46 | 2:38:50 | |
the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, | 2:38:50 | 2:38:52 | |
shadow Attorney General, Emily Thornberry, | 2:38:52 | 2:38:55 | |
Conservative MP, Claire Perry, | 2:38:55 | 2:38:58 | |
the deputy leader of the UK Independence Party, Paul Nuttall, | 2:38:58 | 2:39:02 | |
and, from the Huffington Post website, Mehdi Hasan. | 2:39:02 | 2:39:05 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:39:05 | 2:39:08 | |
Good. Our first question comes from Eamonn Barrett, please. | 2:39:18 | 2:39:21 | |
Eamonn Barrett. | 2:39:21 | 2:39:23 | |
With today's announcement on the GDP figures, | 2:39:23 | 2:39:26 | |
are we seeing the first signs of green shoots? | 2:39:26 | 2:39:29 | |
Paul Nuttall? | 2:39:29 | 2:39:30 | |
Well, I think, initially, | 2:39:32 | 2:39:34 | |
the figures look rather positive. | 2:39:34 | 2:39:35 | |
Let's thank God that we're out of recession. | 2:39:35 | 2:39:38 | |
Manufacturing is up, | 2:39:38 | 2:39:40 | |
unemployment is down. | 2:39:40 | 2:39:42 | |
But there are some negatives in there. | 2:39:42 | 2:39:44 | |
The construction industry seems to have bottomed out. | 2:39:44 | 2:39:47 | |
Youth unemployment is still around 20%, | 2:39:47 | 2:39:49 | |
which is totally unacceptable. | 2:39:49 | 2:39:51 | |
And I do question whether these figures are actually real, | 2:39:51 | 2:39:54 | |
because, if you think of the quarter that these figures were taken, | 2:39:54 | 2:39:57 | |
it was from July to September, when we had the Olympic bounce. | 2:39:57 | 2:40:00 | |
In fact, Olympic ticket sales amounted to, I think, 0.2% of GDP. | 2:40:00 | 2:40:05 | |
Although they're counted in these figures, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:07 | |
the ticket sales necessarily didn't take place at that point. | 2:40:07 | 2:40:11 | |
So I do worry that the figures are false | 2:40:11 | 2:40:13 | |
and I do worry that we will regress, afterwards. | 2:40:13 | 2:40:17 | |
But the real issue with our economy, at the moment, | 2:40:17 | 2:40:21 | |
is actually national debt. | 2:40:21 | 2:40:23 | |
That's more important. | 2:40:23 | 2:40:25 | |
Because, whilst you're sitting here, watching this programme, | 2:40:25 | 2:40:28 | |
and for the people at home, | 2:40:28 | 2:40:29 | |
in the hour that this programme takes place, | 2:40:29 | 2:40:32 | |
our national debt would have grown by 18.5 million. | 2:40:32 | 2:40:37 | |
That's 18.5 million, every hour. | 2:40:37 | 2:40:39 | |
It's about 450 million a day. | 2:40:39 | 2:40:42 | |
So, by 2014, we could have a national debt of 1.4 trillion. | 2:40:42 | 2:40:47 | |
And what we're doing is we're putting a noose | 2:40:47 | 2:40:49 | |
round the neck of our next generation. | 2:40:49 | 2:40:51 | |
We're putting a noose round the neck of our children | 2:40:51 | 2:40:54 | |
and our grandchildren because they will have to pay off the debt | 2:40:54 | 2:40:57 | |
this generation has built up. And I think it's unfair, | 2:40:57 | 2:41:00 | |
and national debt is something that we have to get hold of. | 2:41:00 | 2:41:03 | |
I'll go back to the question, I think it is positive | 2:41:03 | 2:41:05 | |
but I do worry that these are false figures. | 2:41:05 | 2:41:07 | |
-OK. -APPLAUSE | 2:41:07 | 2:41:10 | |
Vince Cable, is that an accurate description | 2:41:11 | 2:41:14 | |
of the way the national debt is going? | 2:41:14 | 2:41:16 | |
Well, national debt is a problem, | 2:41:16 | 2:41:19 | |
but it's only one part of a much bigger picture. | 2:41:19 | 2:41:22 | |
To answer Eamonn's question, | 2:41:22 | 2:41:24 | |
I wouldn't use the phrase "green shoots." | 2:41:24 | 2:41:26 | |
It's been used, unfortunately, before. | 2:41:26 | 2:41:28 | |
I think it's encouraging, | 2:41:28 | 2:41:30 | |
particularly when you take it in conjunction | 2:41:30 | 2:41:32 | |
with some of the other things that have happened. | 2:41:32 | 2:41:34 | |
We've got employment growing, unemployment falling. | 2:41:34 | 2:41:37 | |
Admittedly, it's too high. We've got inflation falling as well. | 2:41:37 | 2:41:41 | |
The problem is that... | 2:41:41 | 2:41:43 | |
our problems, as a country, are very, very deep-rooted. | 2:41:43 | 2:41:46 | |
We had, what I would call | 2:41:47 | 2:41:49 | |
the equivalent of an economic heart attack four years ago, | 2:41:49 | 2:41:52 | |
the financial system almost collapsing. | 2:41:52 | 2:41:54 | |
It's left a dreadful legacy. | 2:41:54 | 2:41:57 | |
The banks still don't function properly. | 2:41:57 | 2:41:59 | |
We've got households, families that still have | 2:41:59 | 2:42:02 | |
too much debt in many cases, they're worried about spending. | 2:42:02 | 2:42:05 | |
The Government's inherited this enormous deficit | 2:42:05 | 2:42:08 | |
we're trying to deal with. | 2:42:08 | 2:42:09 | |
We've now got serious problems in some of our export markets, | 2:42:09 | 2:42:12 | |
particularly the eurozone, | 2:42:12 | 2:42:13 | |
which is partly what accounts for the bad news that we had today | 2:42:13 | 2:42:16 | |
on the vans being produced in Southampton. | 2:42:16 | 2:42:19 | |
So the problems are very deep. | 2:42:19 | 2:42:21 | |
Today's news is encouraging. | 2:42:21 | 2:42:24 | |
In the Government, what we have to do | 2:42:24 | 2:42:26 | |
is to try and stick to a sensible path. | 2:42:26 | 2:42:28 | |
That means partly concentrating on getting | 2:42:28 | 2:42:30 | |
the finances of the Government in order. | 2:42:30 | 2:42:32 | |
That's a big, long-term task, and it's difficult. | 2:42:32 | 2:42:36 | |
But, at the same time, trying to create growth | 2:42:36 | 2:42:38 | |
on a steady, sustainable basis. | 2:42:38 | 2:42:39 | |
When you say you won't use the word "green shoots," | 2:42:39 | 2:42:42 | |
do you mean you don't anticipate, | 2:42:42 | 2:42:44 | |
or can't promise that growth is going to go on upwards? | 2:42:44 | 2:42:47 | |
No, I can't promise. Because it's... | 2:42:47 | 2:42:49 | |
The phrase that the Governor of the Bank of England | 2:42:49 | 2:42:51 | |
used this morning is "zigzag." | 2:42:51 | 2:42:53 | |
That may be what happens. | 2:42:53 | 2:42:54 | |
There are major areas of weakness in the economy. | 2:42:54 | 2:42:57 | |
Construction, as Paul said, is one of them, | 2:42:57 | 2:42:59 | |
the banking sector is another. It's still in terrible shape | 2:42:59 | 2:43:02 | |
It's still not lending to small businesses. | 2:43:02 | 2:43:05 | |
Those are the things we've got to work on. | 2:43:05 | 2:43:07 | |
Eamonn Barrett, you're in the construction industry, aren't you? | 2:43:07 | 2:43:10 | |
Do you feel there are green shoots around? | 2:43:10 | 2:43:13 | |
I think things are picking up. | 2:43:13 | 2:43:15 | |
There's a lot of people I know who weren't working six months ago, | 2:43:15 | 2:43:18 | |
and now they're working. | 2:43:18 | 2:43:20 | |
Not full-time, maybe, but a few days a week, and jobs here, jobs there. | 2:43:20 | 2:43:24 | |
You know, it's definitely picking up, I think, anyway. | 2:43:24 | 2:43:26 | |
Mehdi Hasan? | 2:43:26 | 2:43:27 | |
Some of us have been asking the Government for a few months, | 2:43:29 | 2:43:32 | |
now, what is the Plan B, what's Plan B. | 2:43:32 | 2:43:33 | |
And we now discover that | 2:43:33 | 2:43:35 | |
Plan B is, basically, Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis, | 2:43:35 | 2:43:37 | |
using the Olympics to get this boost. | 2:43:37 | 2:43:40 | |
I don't get to say this very often, | 2:43:40 | 2:43:41 | |
but I'm with the deputy leader of UKIP. | 2:43:41 | 2:43:43 | |
These are false figures. | 2:43:43 | 2:43:45 | |
They have a one-off boost from the Olympics, | 2:43:45 | 2:43:47 | |
they have a one-off boost from recovering | 2:43:47 | 2:43:49 | |
from the Diamond Jubilee Bank Holiday. | 2:43:49 | 2:43:51 | |
The inconvenient truth is that, | 2:43:51 | 2:43:53 | |
if you look over the course of a year, | 2:43:53 | 2:43:55 | |
rather than a single quarter, we haven't grown at all. | 2:43:55 | 2:43:57 | |
There's been zero growth over the past 12 months. | 2:43:57 | 2:44:00 | |
The economy today is the same size as it was a year ago. | 2:44:00 | 2:44:03 | |
In construction, it's 2.5% down. The Government talks about healing. | 2:44:03 | 2:44:06 | |
David Cameron's been using the phrase "healing." | 2:44:06 | 2:44:08 | |
Odd kind of healing, if you see your doctor | 2:44:08 | 2:44:10 | |
and he said, a year after treating you, | 2:44:10 | 2:44:12 | |
"You're exactly the same as you were a year ago." | 2:44:12 | 2:44:14 | |
That's how much you've improved. | 2:44:14 | 2:44:16 | |
Because the medicine's not working, austerity is not working. | 2:44:16 | 2:44:19 | |
Some of us warned it wouldn't work, back in 2010. | 2:44:19 | 2:44:21 | |
In fact there was a guy, before the last election, | 2:44:21 | 2:44:23 | |
I think his name was...Vince Cable, | 2:44:23 | 2:44:25 | |
who said that if you cut too soon, | 2:44:25 | 2:44:26 | |
you will tip the country into recession. | 2:44:26 | 2:44:28 | |
-That's true. -Which is what happened. | 2:44:28 | 2:44:30 | |
-I wonder what happened to that man... -I can explain! | 2:44:30 | 2:44:33 | |
-The reality on the ground... -APPLAUSE | 2:44:33 | 2:44:36 | |
The reality on the ground is the Trussell Trust, | 2:44:38 | 2:44:40 | |
which runs 270 food banks in this country, | 2:44:40 | 2:44:42 | |
is feeding 110,000 hungry people over the past six months. | 2:44:42 | 2:44:45 | |
There's still 2.5 million people unemployed in this country, | 2:44:45 | 2:44:48 | |
that's on top of 1.4 million who are having to work part-time, | 2:44:48 | 2:44:51 | |
because they can't find full-time work. | 2:44:51 | 2:44:53 | |
The question was if these figures... | 2:44:53 | 2:44:55 | |
There aren't green shoots. | 2:44:55 | 2:44:57 | |
If I'm one of the long-term unemployed, | 2:44:57 | 2:44:59 | |
-these aren't green shoots. -It's not going to go on getting better? | 2:44:59 | 2:45:03 | |
No, I think, next quarter, we won't see anything matching this. | 2:45:03 | 2:45:06 | |
I think there's a real risk, as many economists in the city warned, | 2:45:06 | 2:45:08 | |
of a triple-dip recession. | 2:45:08 | 2:45:10 | |
I think, what you have to look at is what's happening on the ground, | 2:45:10 | 2:45:14 | |
not one single quarter's figures. | 2:45:14 | 2:45:16 | |
OK. The woman in the fourth row, with spectacles on. | 2:45:16 | 2:45:18 | |
How do you suggest we maintain the momentum | 2:45:18 | 2:45:20 | |
gained by the Olympics for our economy? | 2:45:20 | 2:45:22 | |
How do you suggest we... | 2:45:22 | 2:45:24 | |
What, like having Olympics every year? | 2:45:24 | 2:45:27 | |
We only get it every 50 years, | 2:45:27 | 2:45:29 | |
so it's not really a viable growth.... | 2:45:29 | 2:45:31 | |
If I could, I think this is probably the most important question, | 2:45:31 | 2:45:35 | |
so, well done on leading off on it. | 2:45:35 | 2:45:37 | |
Mehdi, for all your ranting, Mehdi, if this was a single data point, | 2:45:37 | 2:45:42 | |
there would be some questions around it. | 2:45:42 | 2:45:44 | |
There is a whole stream of good data that came out, this week. | 2:45:44 | 2:45:48 | |
We had employment falling, inflation falling... | 2:45:48 | 2:45:51 | |
-MEDHI: -Part-time jobs. -..the deficit down by 25% since the election. | 2:45:51 | 2:45:55 | |
We're coming out of the biggest recession | 2:45:55 | 2:45:57 | |
we've had in Britain, in peacetime history. | 2:45:57 | 2:46:00 | |
And we are dealing with it. We are starting to see real growth. | 2:46:00 | 2:46:03 | |
Yes, the Olympics contributed to that. | 2:46:03 | 2:46:05 | |
We had the highest rate of business creation ever, | 2:46:05 | 2:46:08 | |
in this country, last year. | 2:46:08 | 2:46:10 | |
This is real growth, being generated by the private sector, | 2:46:10 | 2:46:13 | |
who've created over a million jobs since the election. | 2:46:13 | 2:46:16 | |
It is real growth. It might be choppy going forwards, but it's real growth. | 2:46:16 | 2:46:19 | |
Can I just say, though... | 2:46:19 | 2:46:20 | |
Are the Olympics partly public sector investors? | 2:46:20 | 2:46:23 | |
That may have something... | 2:46:23 | 2:46:25 | |
So maybe we need more public sector in this? | 2:46:25 | 2:46:27 | |
It may explain some of the construction drop off. | 2:46:27 | 2:46:30 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:46:30 | 2:46:32 | |
As a government that's undertaking | 2:46:32 | 2:46:34 | |
all of the really big infrastructure projects | 2:46:34 | 2:46:36 | |
that have been ducked by the last Labour government - | 2:46:36 | 2:46:39 | |
renewing sewers, putting in high-speed rail, all the tough stuff, | 2:46:39 | 2:46:42 | |
it doesn't buy you many votes, but it's the right thing to do. | 2:46:42 | 2:46:44 | |
Can I just say this? Who, actually, will go home tonight | 2:46:44 | 2:46:48 | |
and talk about the growth figures and the deficit? | 2:46:48 | 2:46:50 | |
We won't. We'll go home tonight, | 2:46:50 | 2:46:52 | |
and talk about the fact that the cost of living is still tough, | 2:46:52 | 2:46:55 | |
it's 60 shopping days till Christmas, | 2:46:55 | 2:46:57 | |
people are having to start paying utility bills, | 2:46:57 | 2:46:59 | |
cos we've got a cold snap coming. | 2:46:59 | 2:47:01 | |
What we have to keep doing | 2:47:01 | 2:47:03 | |
is relentlessly focusing on the cost of living. | 2:47:03 | 2:47:06 | |
Because, in my constituency, we don't talk about the deficit and borrowing, | 2:47:06 | 2:47:09 | |
we talk about what's coming into our households, and what's going out. | 2:47:09 | 2:47:12 | |
That's why freezing the council tax, freezing fuel duty, | 2:47:12 | 2:47:15 | |
these are the things that actually make a difference | 2:47:15 | 2:47:18 | |
in people's pockets. | 2:47:18 | 2:47:19 | |
-APPLAUSE -The woman, there. | 2:47:19 | 2:47:22 | |
As a trade unionist, I object | 2:47:23 | 2:47:27 | |
to the Government ranting, all the time, about, | 2:47:27 | 2:47:29 | |
"The Labour Party did this, the Labour Party did this." | 2:47:29 | 2:47:32 | |
We need to look back at when Margaret Thatcher | 2:47:32 | 2:47:35 | |
sold off all of the social housing. | 2:47:35 | 2:47:38 | |
I agree, we've bought our house, | 2:47:38 | 2:47:39 | |
and I think it's a good opportunity. | 2:47:39 | 2:47:42 | |
But, it was all flags and whistles. | 2:47:42 | 2:47:46 | |
Now, there are people | 2:47:46 | 2:47:48 | |
who can't even afford to live in their own homes. | 2:47:48 | 2:47:51 | |
There's no social housing, and you expect us to believe you? | 2:47:51 | 2:47:55 | |
I'm sorry! | 2:47:55 | 2:47:56 | |
Do you believe the figures | 2:47:56 | 2:47:58 | |
that show that the double-dip recession may be over, | 2:47:58 | 2:48:01 | |
or do you think things are going to get worse? | 2:48:01 | 2:48:04 | |
-I think the figures they put out today are a load of lies. -OK. | 2:48:04 | 2:48:08 | |
And the woman in red? | 2:48:08 | 2:48:10 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:48:10 | 2:48:11 | |
I just wanted to take Claire Perry up on the fact | 2:48:11 | 2:48:14 | |
that she just said that the deficit was down by 25%. | 2:48:14 | 2:48:17 | |
Isn't that a complete fallacy? | 2:48:17 | 2:48:19 | |
I remember watching another news programme, produced by the BBC, | 2:48:19 | 2:48:24 | |
and they suggested that, actually, | 2:48:24 | 2:48:26 | |
the data point that George Osborne collected the data from, | 2:48:26 | 2:48:30 | |
gave this impression that the deficit was down by 25%, | 2:48:30 | 2:48:33 | |
but, actually, if we wait until the end of the year, | 2:48:33 | 2:48:35 | |
the deficit's only down by 2.5%. | 2:48:35 | 2:48:37 | |
Emily Thornberry, would you like to comment on that, and the issue of | 2:48:37 | 2:48:40 | |
whether the whole thing is a load of lies, in your view? | 2:48:40 | 2:48:43 | |
Which is the point that was made. | 2:48:43 | 2:48:45 | |
I think this is good news. I do think it's good news. | 2:48:45 | 2:48:49 | |
I think 1% growth is good news. | 2:48:49 | 2:48:51 | |
The reason it's good news | 2:48:51 | 2:48:52 | |
is because we're coming out of a recession. | 2:48:52 | 2:48:54 | |
Why are we coming out of a recession? | 2:48:54 | 2:48:56 | |
Because we've had a second recession. | 2:48:56 | 2:48:58 | |
We've had a double-dip recession. Why have we had that? | 2:48:58 | 2:49:01 | |
That's because of choices this Government has made. | 2:49:01 | 2:49:03 | |
There's only been two countries in the G20 that have had | 2:49:03 | 2:49:06 | |
a double-dip recession, and one of those has been ours. | 2:49:06 | 2:49:08 | |
What worries me, is this good news | 2:49:08 | 2:49:10 | |
will just result in this Government becoming even more complacent. | 2:49:10 | 2:49:14 | |
They'll sit back and say, | 2:49:14 | 2:49:15 | |
"Everything's working, everything's fine. | 2:49:15 | 2:49:17 | |
"We don't need to invest in social housing, | 2:49:17 | 2:49:19 | |
"We don't need to make sure that we have more jobs for young people." | 2:49:19 | 2:49:22 | |
Forgive me, but when have you heard anybody said that? | 2:49:22 | 2:49:25 | |
When have we ever said...? | 2:49:25 | 2:49:26 | |
Do tell me whether you're going to be investing in social housing. | 2:49:26 | 2:49:29 | |
Under your government, | 2:49:29 | 2:49:30 | |
social housing dropped to the lowest level since the 1920s. | 2:49:30 | 2:49:32 | |
Social housing is one of the biggest problems in my constituency. | 2:49:32 | 2:49:36 | |
A third of my casework is people who cannot find affordable housing, | 2:49:36 | 2:49:40 | |
thanks to the disastrous legacy your government left. | 2:49:40 | 2:49:43 | |
We are doing all we can to build social housing, | 2:49:43 | 2:49:46 | |
it's the biggest problem facing young people today | 2:49:46 | 2:49:48 | |
is they can't buy a house or find anywhere to rent. | 2:49:48 | 2:49:50 | |
You should be apologising, Emily, for your track record. | 2:49:50 | 2:49:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:49:53 | 2:49:56 | |
In the area that I represent, | 2:49:57 | 2:50:00 | |
40% of the people in my constituency live in social housing. | 2:50:00 | 2:50:03 | |
What we did see, over the time of a Labour government, | 2:50:03 | 2:50:05 | |
since you raise it, Claire, was all the social housing | 2:50:05 | 2:50:08 | |
in my constituency got done up. It was in the most disgusting state, | 2:50:08 | 2:50:11 | |
frankly, when the Tories came out of government, and we did it all up. | 2:50:11 | 2:50:14 | |
I don't think we built enough | 2:50:14 | 2:50:15 | |
and I think, when we're coming out of a recession, | 2:50:15 | 2:50:18 | |
what we should be doing is making good decisions | 2:50:18 | 2:50:21 | |
about how we invest in our infrastructure, | 2:50:21 | 2:50:23 | |
and we should be investing in our infrastructure by building homes, | 2:50:23 | 2:50:26 | |
and building homes, particularly, for youngsters. | 2:50:26 | 2:50:28 | |
I am concerned about long-term unemployment, | 2:50:28 | 2:50:31 | |
and long-term unemployment amongst the young. | 2:50:31 | 2:50:34 | |
You know that, in Berkshire, which frankly is a mixed area, | 2:50:34 | 2:50:37 | |
it has a lot of posh bits, but nevertheless, 12 months ago, | 2:50:37 | 2:50:40 | |
100 youngsters had been claiming JSA for a year. | 2:50:40 | 2:50:43 | |
Do you know how many are claiming it now, in Berkshire? 400. | 2:50:43 | 2:50:48 | |
And 100 of those are in Slough. | 2:50:48 | 2:50:50 | |
If you are a youngster, if you're 18, | 2:50:50 | 2:50:52 | |
and you claim benefits for a whole year, | 2:50:52 | 2:50:54 | |
and you're not able to get a job, | 2:50:54 | 2:50:56 | |
it will make a huge difference to your life. | 2:50:56 | 2:50:58 | |
And those mums and dads who've done their best to bring up children | 2:50:58 | 2:51:01 | |
as best they can, and push them out into the world, | 2:51:01 | 2:51:03 | |
and the world is just saying, "No, sorry, don't need you. | 2:51:03 | 2:51:06 | |
"Have you have a younger brother? | 2:51:06 | 2:51:07 | |
"We might be interested in five years' time." | 2:51:07 | 2:51:10 | |
That is the tragedy of this recession. | 2:51:10 | 2:51:12 | |
It is really urgent that we invest now. | 2:51:12 | 2:51:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:51:14 | 2:51:16 | |
A couple more points. Go on, the man, there, in the middle? | 2:51:16 | 2:51:20 | |
Thank you. During an earlier recession | 2:51:20 | 2:51:22 | |
at the beginning of the '90s, which was also quite a bad one, | 2:51:22 | 2:51:26 | |
not as bad as this one, but, for the years up until 1997, | 2:51:26 | 2:51:31 | |
the Labour Party said, "Oh, things are still getting worse. | 2:51:31 | 2:51:34 | |
"Nothing's getting better, we're in recession." | 2:51:34 | 2:51:37 | |
They ridiculed John Major they ridiculed Ken Clarke, | 2:51:37 | 2:51:39 | |
they ridiculed Norman Lamont. | 2:51:39 | 2:51:41 | |
And, lo and behold, about four or five years after... | 2:51:41 | 2:51:45 | |
..they suddenly thought that, now Labour was in power, | 2:51:47 | 2:51:50 | |
things have turned round, are getting better. | 2:51:50 | 2:51:52 | |
Actually the statistics were so far out of date... | 2:51:52 | 2:51:57 | |
as to be laughable. | 2:51:57 | 2:51:59 | |
What we need are accurate statistics, | 2:51:59 | 2:52:01 | |
independent statistics, which we should be getting now. | 2:52:01 | 2:52:05 | |
-They are, sir. Sorry to interrupt you. -But are they any more accurate? | 2:52:05 | 2:52:09 | |
We set up the Office for Budget Responsibility, | 2:52:09 | 2:52:12 | |
not necessarily something Gordon Brown | 2:52:12 | 2:52:14 | |
and the previous government believed in, | 2:52:14 | 2:52:16 | |
to try and address the problem that the Treasury made up the numbers. | 2:52:16 | 2:52:20 | |
Now we have an independently-verified set of numbers... | 2:52:20 | 2:52:24 | |
They might well get revised... | 2:52:24 | 2:52:26 | |
Which the Prime Minister is ticked off for announcing in advance... | 2:52:26 | 2:52:29 | |
He didn't announce it... | 2:52:29 | 2:52:31 | |
On the OBR - the Office of Budget Responsibility | 2:52:31 | 2:52:33 | |
predicted in 2010, two years ago, | 2:52:33 | 2:52:35 | |
that, by now, we would have had 4.6% of growth. 4.6%. | 2:52:35 | 2:52:40 | |
Do you know how much growth we've had over two years? Claire? | 2:52:40 | 2:52:44 | |
-We've had... -0.6% versus 4.6%. That is a failure. | 2:52:44 | 2:52:47 | |
Claire, I'll curtail your contribution | 2:52:47 | 2:52:49 | |
in favour of Vince Cable. You are both part of the same coalition. | 2:52:49 | 2:52:52 | |
And he is a far more senior member. | 2:52:52 | 2:52:54 | |
He's not a senior member, he's the Secretary of State... | 2:52:54 | 2:52:57 | |
There is a striking irony. | 2:52:57 | 2:52:58 | |
When we had bad news, the last few quarters, | 2:52:58 | 2:53:01 | |
most of our critics rushed out and said, | 2:53:01 | 2:53:03 | |
"This is a complete disaster, the figures were obviously right." | 2:53:03 | 2:53:07 | |
Now we've got good figures, our critics say, | 2:53:07 | 2:53:09 | |
-"They're obviously fixed!" -APPLAUSE | 2:53:09 | 2:53:12 | |
-MEHDI: -They're inflated. | 2:53:12 | 2:53:14 | |
If I could deal with the criticism I had a few moments ago | 2:53:16 | 2:53:19 | |
about cutting too fast. | 2:53:19 | 2:53:21 | |
I did say that, and I would still say that. | 2:53:21 | 2:53:23 | |
The Government has a very difficult balancing act. | 2:53:23 | 2:53:27 | |
And you got it wrong. | 2:53:27 | 2:53:29 | |
No, we have to cut our deficit. | 2:53:29 | 2:53:32 | |
It is massive, the biggest in the developed world. | 2:53:32 | 2:53:35 | |
An enormous budget deficit - we have to deal with it. | 2:53:35 | 2:53:38 | |
If we do it too fast, you're right, you do drive the economy down. | 2:53:38 | 2:53:41 | |
If you don't do it fast enough, | 2:53:41 | 2:53:43 | |
you lose the confidence of the people lending to you. | 2:53:43 | 2:53:46 | |
Striking that balance is extraordinarily difficult. | 2:53:46 | 2:53:48 | |
The bit of austerity that did the biggest damage | 2:53:48 | 2:53:52 | |
was in 2009-10. | 2:53:52 | 2:53:55 | |
I think the then-Chancellor slashed the public investment, | 2:53:55 | 2:53:59 | |
in the things Claire was talking about. Infrastructure. | 2:53:59 | 2:54:02 | |
That has done terrible damage to the construction industry. | 2:54:02 | 2:54:05 | |
We've steadily rebuilt that. | 2:54:05 | 2:54:07 | |
We have to get the budget deficit under control. | 2:54:07 | 2:54:10 | |
We argue it should be done over a six-year period. | 2:54:10 | 2:54:12 | |
You may argue that that is too quick. | 2:54:12 | 2:54:15 | |
The Labour Party have said it should be over seven years. Big deal(!) | 2:54:15 | 2:54:18 | |
Forgive me, Vince, but they haven't said... | 2:54:18 | 2:54:21 | |
Emily, you may say we've got it wrong... | 2:54:21 | 2:54:24 | |
If I get a word in edgeways. | 2:54:24 | 2:54:26 | |
You've said you would like to cut the deficit. What would you cut? | 2:54:26 | 2:54:29 | |
Name one thing that the Labour Party has supported us on | 2:54:29 | 2:54:31 | |
-in terms of reductions... -Emily, a brief answer. | 2:54:31 | 2:54:35 | |
I think we should be responsible when it comes to cutting back money | 2:54:35 | 2:54:39 | |
that we are investing in the police force. | 2:54:39 | 2:54:41 | |
I think you are cutting the police force far too much. | 2:54:41 | 2:54:44 | |
We've lost 6,000 front-line police officers. | 2:54:44 | 2:54:47 | |
And crime is at its lowest level... | 2:54:47 | 2:54:49 | |
-Emily. -If you want me to answer, let me answer. | 2:54:49 | 2:54:52 | |
If you go and cut investment in police officers, | 2:54:52 | 2:54:55 | |
you were warned that you would lose front-line police officers. | 2:54:55 | 2:54:59 | |
I think the question was, "Where would you cut?" | 2:54:59 | 2:55:02 | |
What we've said is we would cut investment, | 2:55:02 | 2:55:05 | |
cut the money we pay to the police force, | 2:55:05 | 2:55:08 | |
in line with that which has been advised, | 2:55:08 | 2:55:10 | |
which would not result in cuts in front-line police officers. | 2:55:10 | 2:55:14 | |
That is the difference between what you're doing, | 2:55:14 | 2:55:17 | |
which is going too far and too fast | 2:55:17 | 2:55:18 | |
and resulting in a double-dip recession. | 2:55:18 | 2:55:21 | |
Of course we have to pay back the debt and the deficit, | 2:55:21 | 2:55:24 | |
but we have to do it in a responsible way | 2:55:24 | 2:55:26 | |
-that keeps us together as a country. -We must go on. | 2:55:26 | 2:55:30 | |
I must ask the panellists to speak slightly less long, | 2:55:30 | 2:55:34 | |
or at slightly less length, | 2:55:34 | 2:55:35 | |
so we can get more members of the audience in. | 2:55:35 | 2:55:38 | |
And the panellists can come back on each other. | 2:55:38 | 2:55:40 | |
If you want to join in the debate tonight, | 2:55:40 | 2:55:43 | |
on Twitter, you can go there... | 2:55:43 | 2:55:45 | |
We have our Twitter panellist there. | 2:55:50 | 2:55:52 | |
You can text comments. | 2:55:52 | 2:55:54 | |
You can press the red button on the...thingy... | 2:55:54 | 2:55:58 | |
-to see what others are saying. -LAUGHTER | 2:55:58 | 2:56:01 | |
-What do you call that? A "zapper"! -The remote. | 2:56:01 | 2:56:04 | |
The remote... I thought you tapped the red screen... Anyway. | 2:56:04 | 2:56:07 | |
Let's go onto another question. | 2:56:07 | 2:56:09 | |
Angela Kirk has this one. | 2:56:09 | 2:56:12 | |
Is the proposal to limit Child Benefit to the first two children | 2:56:12 | 2:56:15 | |
fair and reasonable? | 2:56:15 | 2:56:17 | |
This is a proposal that Iain Duncan Smith has been making, | 2:56:17 | 2:56:22 | |
these last two days. | 2:56:22 | 2:56:24 | |
He made a speech this evening saying that the benefits system | 2:56:24 | 2:56:27 | |
promoted destructive behaviour, | 2:56:27 | 2:56:29 | |
and, on the Today programme, he said, | 2:56:29 | 2:56:32 | |
"My view is that you need a cap on child benefits at two children. | 2:56:32 | 2:56:37 | |
"For those who begin to have more than, say, two children, | 2:56:37 | 2:56:41 | |
"you should stop it." | 2:56:41 | 2:56:43 | |
Is it a good idea for the Government to do this? | 2:56:43 | 2:56:46 | |
Is the Government going to do it? Emily Thornberry. | 2:56:46 | 2:56:49 | |
Well, I think... I don't really know where to start with this. | 2:56:49 | 2:56:53 | |
I think it is absolutely extraordinary | 2:56:53 | 2:56:55 | |
for politicians to go around pontificating | 2:56:55 | 2:56:57 | |
and telling people how many children they should have. | 2:56:57 | 2:57:00 | |
I think people have children for love, not for money. | 2:57:00 | 2:57:04 | |
It is extraordinary. I do think it's a distraction technique. | 2:57:04 | 2:57:07 | |
I think it is trying to distract the public | 2:57:07 | 2:57:09 | |
from what this government is actually doing. | 2:57:09 | 2:57:12 | |
Iain Duncan Smith has agreed | 2:57:12 | 2:57:14 | |
to cut another £10 billion from the welfare budget. | 2:57:14 | 2:57:17 | |
That's at the same time | 2:57:17 | 2:57:20 | |
as them giving £40,000 tax cuts to millionaires. | 2:57:20 | 2:57:24 | |
So they give the millionaires £40,000 and they expect the poorest | 2:57:24 | 2:57:27 | |
to be making their contribution by another £10 billion. | 2:57:27 | 2:57:31 | |
How can it be that they can start making decisions | 2:57:31 | 2:57:34 | |
about how many children people should have and start penalising people? | 2:57:34 | 2:57:37 | |
Presumably... | 2:57:37 | 2:57:39 | |
Is there a difference between telling people how many children | 2:57:39 | 2:57:41 | |
they can have, as in China, | 2:57:41 | 2:57:43 | |
and not giving benefit to families with more than two children? | 2:57:43 | 2:57:46 | |
Is there a difference? | 2:57:46 | 2:57:48 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:57:48 | 2:57:51 | |
If you're the fourth child born into a poor family, | 2:57:53 | 2:57:56 | |
and your family are therefore getting no money, is it your fault? | 2:57:56 | 2:58:00 | |
Should you be in a family that's even poorer? | 2:58:00 | 2:58:03 | |
What do they expect people to do? Starve their children? | 2:58:03 | 2:58:06 | |
What are they expecting here? | 2:58:06 | 2:58:08 | |
Surely we should have a government that cares about child poverty, | 2:58:08 | 2:58:11 | |
that wants to do something about it, | 2:58:11 | 2:58:13 | |
that doesn't start trying to penalise people | 2:58:13 | 2:58:15 | |
because of the choices they've made. APPLAUSE | 2:58:15 | 2:58:18 | |
It seems to me the most dreadful thing. | 2:58:18 | 2:58:20 | |
We talk about how they wanted to move away from being "the nasty party" | 2:58:20 | 2:58:23 | |
but it strikes me this is exactly from that stable. | 2:58:23 | 2:58:26 | |
Paul Nuttall? | 2:58:26 | 2:58:28 | |
SCATTERED APPLAUSE | 2:58:28 | 2:58:30 | |
I must say, I must pay tribute to Iain Duncan Smith. | 2:58:30 | 2:58:34 | |
This is a guy who knows his brief. | 2:58:34 | 2:58:36 | |
He spent eight years researching this before he went into government. | 2:58:36 | 2:58:40 | |
-He refused to be moved in the reshuffle, as well. -Yes. | 2:58:40 | 2:58:43 | |
He understands his brief. | 2:58:43 | 2:58:45 | |
I don't agree with much that the Coalition does, | 2:58:45 | 2:58:47 | |
but I do believe that they are getting this right | 2:58:47 | 2:58:50 | |
on welfare and benefits. | 2:58:50 | 2:58:52 | |
Under Labour, welfare exploded. | 2:58:52 | 2:58:54 | |
It rose by 60% between 1997 and 2010. | 2:58:54 | 2:58:59 | |
It was unsustainable. | 2:58:59 | 2:59:01 | |
It's cost each household, in tax, £3,000 a year. | 2:59:01 | 2:59:05 | |
But what we must be careful of doing | 2:59:05 | 2:59:06 | |
is we shouldn't stigmatise people on welfare. | 2:59:06 | 2:59:10 | |
There are graduates coming out of university who can't jobs. | 2:59:10 | 2:59:13 | |
There are people who are being affected by the cuts | 2:59:13 | 2:59:16 | |
who are coming out of work and can't get jobs. | 2:59:16 | 2:59:19 | |
However, there is a growing underclass in this country. | 2:59:19 | 2:59:24 | |
You know, I'm from Bootle, | 2:59:24 | 2:59:26 | |
which is one of the poorest constituencies in the country. | 2:59:26 | 2:59:29 | |
We have the lowest life expectancy in England. | 2:59:29 | 2:59:33 | |
And I see it every day. | 2:59:33 | 2:59:34 | |
You've got one family who live there. Dad goes out to work, | 2:59:34 | 2:59:38 | |
maybe on the docks, maybe in a factory. | 2:59:38 | 2:59:41 | |
Mum goes out, stacks shelves in ASDA. They live within their means. | 2:59:41 | 2:59:45 | |
They make that decision. | 2:59:45 | 2:59:47 | |
Then you've got the family next door on benefits, | 2:59:47 | 2:59:50 | |
who still have the flat-screen television, still have a car | 2:59:50 | 2:59:53 | |
and can afford to go on holiday once a year. | 2:59:53 | 2:59:57 | |
What it's doing, this system, | 2:59:57 | 2:59:58 | |
is creating resentment within the working-class community | 2:59:58 | 3:00:01 | |
and splitting the working-class community. | 3:00:01 | 3:00:03 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:00:03 | 3:00:05 | |
Can I just say...? | 3:00:09 | 3:00:10 | |
Paul, I'll come back to you. | 3:00:10 | 3:00:12 | |
The gentleman in blue and then the woman in red. | 3:00:12 | 3:00:15 | |
I think the issue is parental responsibility. I've got a son. | 3:00:15 | 3:00:18 | |
I wouldn't bring another child into the world | 3:00:18 | 3:00:21 | |
if I couldn't afford to pay for a second child. | 3:00:21 | 3:00:23 | |
Absolutely. | 3:00:23 | 3:00:25 | |
I think it's a naive view... | 3:00:25 | 3:00:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:00:27 | 3:00:29 | |
It's a naive view to say that people | 3:00:29 | 3:00:32 | |
bring children into the world for love, because... | 3:00:32 | 3:00:34 | |
it's a fact, some people have children simply to claim benefits. | 3:00:34 | 3:00:38 | |
It's unfortunate, | 3:00:38 | 3:00:39 | |
but successive governments have not anything about it. | 3:00:39 | 3:00:43 | |
The woman in the third row from the back, with spectacles. | 3:00:43 | 3:00:47 | |
It's all very well to say that people should limit their families, | 3:00:47 | 3:00:49 | |
but what about the family with three or four children now, | 3:00:49 | 3:00:52 | |
who suddenly would find their Child Benefit cut? | 3:00:52 | 3:00:54 | |
Are they supposed to throw a child into the bushes and just keep two(?) | 3:00:54 | 3:00:57 | |
Claire Perry? | 3:00:57 | 3:00:59 | |
Mrs Kirk, you may be better informed than me. | 3:00:59 | 3:01:01 | |
I think IDS was talking about the overall benefit package, | 3:01:01 | 3:01:05 | |
not Child Benefit. | 3:01:05 | 3:01:07 | |
Child Benefit is already being restructured. | 3:01:07 | 3:01:10 | |
It's not going to be paid | 3:01:10 | 3:01:11 | |
to the richest 15% of families in the country. | 3:01:11 | 3:01:15 | |
The average salary of people in my constituency is £25,000. | 3:01:15 | 3:01:19 | |
I don't think it's fair to tax those people | 3:01:19 | 3:01:21 | |
to pay child benefits to MPs like Emily and I. | 3:01:21 | 3:01:24 | |
"Child-related benefits," was his words. | 3:01:24 | 3:01:27 | |
I do agree with the gentleman in the blue, | 3:01:27 | 3:01:29 | |
it's in the question of fairness. | 3:01:29 | 3:01:31 | |
I don't think it's fair that families on benefits... | 3:01:31 | 3:01:35 | |
I don't want to stigmatise. I disagree with you, Paul - | 3:01:35 | 3:01:37 | |
you can't stigmatise and characterise people in certain ways, | 3:01:37 | 3:01:40 | |
but it is not fair that the decisions they make | 3:01:40 | 3:01:43 | |
are different from the decisions that people in work have to make. | 3:01:43 | 3:01:47 | |
Many people think very hard about the cost of bring up the child, | 3:01:47 | 3:01:50 | |
the cost of moving house, | 3:01:50 | 3:01:52 | |
what it would cost to provide an extra bedroom. | 3:01:52 | 3:01:55 | |
What Iain Duncan Smith is saying is people on benefits | 3:01:55 | 3:01:58 | |
should be making those same sorts of decisions. | 3:01:58 | 3:02:00 | |
Is it fair and reasonable, in your view, | 3:02:00 | 3:02:03 | |
to limit these child-related benefits? | 3:02:03 | 3:02:06 | |
I think it is fair and reasonable. | 3:02:06 | 3:02:08 | |
I would want to see the transitional arrangements, though. | 3:02:08 | 3:02:10 | |
Of course, you wouldn't expect families who already have | 3:02:10 | 3:02:13 | |
three or four children to suddenly lose it. | 3:02:13 | 3:02:16 | |
You would want to provide a very strong signal, going forward, | 3:02:16 | 3:02:19 | |
and making sure it is transitional. | 3:02:19 | 3:02:21 | |
It is fair that people on benefits | 3:02:21 | 3:02:24 | |
have to think the same way as people in work. | 3:02:24 | 3:02:26 | |
We want people on benefits to move into work, | 3:02:26 | 3:02:28 | |
not to be on benefits for a lifetime. | 3:02:28 | 3:02:30 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:02:30 | 3:02:33 | |
Mehdi Hasan? | 3:02:33 | 3:02:34 | |
I think the Government has a wonderful new slogan, | 3:02:34 | 3:02:37 | |
"Tough on babies, tough on the causes of babies"(!) | 3:02:37 | 3:02:40 | |
HANDCLAPS | 3:02:40 | 3:02:42 | |
I was astonished at where this coalition goes with these policies | 3:02:42 | 3:02:46 | |
and where it comes up with these policies | 3:02:46 | 3:02:48 | |
Paul, with respect, you say we have a system that creates resentment. | 3:02:48 | 3:02:51 | |
No, we have politicians who create resentment, | 3:02:51 | 3:02:53 | |
when they talk about people with flat-screen TVs and holidays. | 3:02:53 | 3:02:57 | |
Let's cut through the myths and lies for a second. | 3:02:57 | 3:03:00 | |
In this country, Iain Duncan Smith is talking about poverty, | 3:03:00 | 3:03:03 | |
child poverty and welfare. | 3:03:03 | 3:03:05 | |
In this country, six out of ten children who live in child poverty | 3:03:05 | 3:03:08 | |
live in working, not work-less households, | 3:03:08 | 3:03:11 | |
but we stigmatise them as living in lazy, feckless households. | 3:03:11 | 3:03:14 | |
-APPLAUSE -As for large families, | 3:03:14 | 3:03:16 | |
which Iain Duncan Smith talked about on the Today programme, | 3:03:16 | 3:03:19 | |
if you look at his own department's figures, | 3:03:19 | 3:03:22 | |
there are 40,000 families claiming out-of-work child-related benefits | 3:03:22 | 3:03:26 | |
who have five kids or more. Which is 3% of the total. | 3:03:26 | 3:03:30 | |
In fact, 80% of people claiming child-related benefits | 3:03:30 | 3:03:34 | |
have two kids or less. | 3:03:34 | 3:03:35 | |
Let's not generalise, | 3:03:35 | 3:03:37 | |
based on Daily Mail scare stories about one woman with ten kids. | 3:03:37 | 3:03:40 | |
The gentleman in the audience, | 3:03:40 | 3:03:42 | |
I take your point about your own situation. But if, tomorrow, | 3:03:42 | 3:03:45 | |
thanks to this government's mismanagement of the economy, | 3:03:45 | 3:03:48 | |
you lost your job, would you want to lose your benefits | 3:03:48 | 3:03:50 | |
through no fault of your own? Would your child have to suffer? | 3:03:50 | 3:03:53 | |
That's not what I said. | 3:03:53 | 3:03:54 | |
My point was that people need to take more responsibility. | 3:03:54 | 3:03:57 | |
But what if you lose your job? | 3:03:57 | 3:03:59 | |
If you lose your responsibility, you are a viable case. | 3:03:59 | 3:04:01 | |
It should be done on a case-by-case basis, | 3:04:01 | 3:04:04 | |
not, "I have five children, I get this much money." | 3:04:04 | 3:04:06 | |
That's not what I said. | 3:04:06 | 3:04:07 | |
Paul Nuttall, you want to come back | 3:04:07 | 3:04:10 | |
on the point Mehdi said about your characterisation... ? | 3:04:10 | 3:04:13 | |
I think you'd have to be mad to claim | 3:04:13 | 3:04:14 | |
that there isn't a significant underclass in this country. | 3:04:14 | 3:04:18 | |
I'm mad. | 3:04:18 | 3:04:20 | |
I'm telling you, | 3:04:20 | 3:04:21 | |
there is a significant underclass in this country | 3:04:21 | 3:04:23 | |
and it has been borne out of a benefits and welfare system which... | 3:04:23 | 3:04:28 | |
It is borne out of unemployment! It is borne out of unemployment! | 3:04:28 | 3:04:32 | |
4 million people in this country are looking for work. | 3:04:32 | 3:04:34 | |
One at a time! Mehdi, you've had your say. | 3:04:34 | 3:04:37 | |
Let him reply to the attack you made. | 3:04:37 | 3:04:39 | |
Whoever set it up didn't mean it to be set up like this. | 3:04:39 | 3:04:42 | |
What we've got at the moment is a benefits system | 3:04:42 | 3:04:45 | |
which should be a safety net for the needy, but in some cases, | 3:04:45 | 3:04:49 | |
and I hasten to say, in SOME cases, what it's become is a career path | 3:04:49 | 3:04:53 | |
and a vehicle for people who just don't want to work. | 3:04:53 | 3:04:55 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:04:55 | 3:04:57 | |
-Can I come back to that? -No, in a moment, you can. | 3:04:57 | 3:05:01 | |
Vince Cable, is this a proposal that you support? | 3:05:01 | 3:05:05 | |
No, and if that is the proposal, it wouldn't be fair and reasonable. | 3:05:05 | 3:05:08 | |
It isn't Government policy. I don't think that's what he said. | 3:05:08 | 3:05:12 | |
If you're talking about Child Benefit, Claire accurately described | 3:05:12 | 3:05:16 | |
the way we are changing it - to withdraw it from high earners. | 3:05:16 | 3:05:20 | |
If you're talking about Child Tax Credit, | 3:05:20 | 3:05:22 | |
which is what people get when they're in work, | 3:05:22 | 3:05:25 | |
and, as Mehdi said, most people who are poor are in work... | 3:05:25 | 3:05:29 | |
Child Tax Credit has been significantly increased. | 3:05:29 | 3:05:32 | |
So hold on, you are in the Government with him, | 3:05:32 | 3:05:36 | |
at Work and Pensions, | 3:05:36 | 3:05:38 | |
and what he said on the Today programme was, | 3:05:38 | 3:05:41 | |
he suggested a cap on child-related benefits at two children. | 3:05:41 | 3:05:45 | |
Well, we don't agree with that. | 3:05:45 | 3:05:47 | |
So that won't happen, you'll block it? | 3:05:47 | 3:05:49 | |
We've made it clear we will not go along with welfare cuts | 3:05:49 | 3:05:52 | |
-which are unfair. -And you deem two-children families...? | 3:05:52 | 3:05:56 | |
That is almost certainly right. | 3:05:56 | 3:05:58 | |
Sorry, just to get this absolutely clear. | 3:05:58 | 3:06:01 | |
It's unfair because it says, "Two children and that's it"? | 3:06:01 | 3:06:05 | |
Yes. That's exactly right. | 3:06:05 | 3:06:07 | |
What we do feel, I would say this, | 3:06:07 | 3:06:10 | |
Iain is a very decent, humane and good minister. | 3:06:10 | 3:06:14 | |
The principle he is trying to address, | 3:06:14 | 3:06:16 | |
and has done since we came in, | 3:06:16 | 3:06:18 | |
is that it is fundamentally unfair for people | 3:06:18 | 3:06:21 | |
to be better off out of work than in work. | 3:06:21 | 3:06:23 | |
That's the fundamental unfairness that he is trying to deal with. | 3:06:23 | 3:06:26 | |
We are trying to deal with that through welfare reform, | 3:06:26 | 3:06:29 | |
through the universal credit. | 3:06:29 | 3:06:30 | |
Iain deserves as lot of praise for what he's done in that respect. | 3:06:30 | 3:06:33 | |
This particular proposal - | 3:06:33 | 3:06:35 | |
I don't know whether this is kite flying | 3:06:35 | 3:06:38 | |
-or a misunderstanding of what he said - wouldn't be acceptable. -OK. | 3:06:38 | 3:06:42 | |
Emily, briefly if you would then we must move on. | 3:06:42 | 3:06:44 | |
Some members of the panel are labouring under this misunderstanding | 3:06:44 | 3:06:48 | |
about the number of people who are working and also getting benefits. | 3:06:48 | 3:06:51 | |
You talked at the beginning of the programme, sir, | 3:06:51 | 3:06:54 | |
about how some of your friends | 3:06:54 | 3:06:55 | |
are starting to work, but they are working part-time. | 3:06:55 | 3:06:57 | |
The only way in which people can work part-time | 3:06:57 | 3:06:59 | |
and make ends meet in somewhere like Berkshire | 3:06:59 | 3:07:01 | |
is if they're getting housing benefit, | 3:07:01 | 3:07:03 | |
tax credits and child benefit. | 3:07:03 | 3:07:06 | |
They do their best to get a job. | 3:07:06 | 3:07:08 | |
They are striving away, | 3:07:08 | 3:07:10 | |
but the idea that some government then turns around and says, | 3:07:10 | 3:07:13 | |
"I'm sorry, but you're on benefits and you've got two children. | 3:07:13 | 3:07:16 | |
"We're going to have to start taking your money away." What is this about? | 3:07:16 | 3:07:19 | |
This is not about a party that is interested in one nation. | 3:07:19 | 3:07:22 | |
Can I say one other thing? | 3:07:22 | 3:07:24 | |
I hear what Vince says | 3:07:24 | 3:07:26 | |
about this brave new world that IDS is bringing in. | 3:07:26 | 3:07:30 | |
Everyone within Westminster knows | 3:07:30 | 3:07:32 | |
that the Universal Credit is in trouble... | 3:07:32 | 3:07:34 | |
-CLAIRE: -That's not true. -..their IT programme is over budget. | 3:07:34 | 3:07:38 | |
It is coming in much later. | 3:07:38 | 3:07:40 | |
We also know that there were all sorts of rumours | 3:07:40 | 3:07:42 | |
about them trying to sack IDS, | 3:07:42 | 3:07:44 | |
Frankly, this is a distraction. | 3:07:44 | 3:07:45 | |
This is him desperately trying to hold onto his job and saying, | 3:07:45 | 3:07:48 | |
"Look, David Cameron, I can push us up in the polls..." | 3:07:48 | 3:07:51 | |
-Oh, really? -"..by coming out with this sort of nonsense." | 3:07:51 | 3:07:53 | |
You can answer that point. Is he trying to hold onto his job? | 3:07:53 | 3:07:56 | |
-Is he in danger of being sacked? -IDS recognises the problem | 3:07:56 | 3:08:00 | |
that we have five million people of working age | 3:08:00 | 3:08:03 | |
receiving benefits in this country. | 3:08:03 | 3:08:05 | |
We created 2.4 million jobs under Emily's government | 3:08:05 | 3:08:08 | |
and half of them went to people who came from abroad... | 3:08:08 | 3:08:12 | |
Hang on a second. | 3:08:12 | 3:08:13 | |
You can go on for hours about the many problems, | 3:08:13 | 3:08:16 | |
the question is, is IDS just saying this? | 3:08:16 | 3:08:19 | |
Vince Cable said it might be kite-flying, is it? | 3:08:19 | 3:08:22 | |
IDS is 100% committed to resolving the very tough problems we have. | 3:08:22 | 3:08:28 | |
We have an incredibly complex, badly-structured welfare system. | 3:08:28 | 3:08:33 | |
You think his job's safe? | 3:08:33 | 3:08:35 | |
The most popular thing we have done is introduce a welfare cap | 3:08:35 | 3:08:38 | |
that means people on benefits can't earn more than those in work. | 3:08:38 | 3:08:42 | |
Emily voted against that. It's shocking. | 3:08:42 | 3:08:45 | |
The man in the third row, please. And then we must move on. | 3:08:45 | 3:08:48 | |
And then the woman there, yes. | 3:08:48 | 3:08:49 | |
I'm not a UKIP man but I do agree with Paul Nuttall on this. | 3:08:49 | 3:08:54 | |
He mentioned the term resentment | 3:08:54 | 3:08:56 | |
and it's causing resentment amongst the working classes. | 3:08:56 | 3:08:59 | |
That is true, | 3:08:59 | 3:09:00 | |
but I think the bigger resentment that people are not looking at is... | 3:09:00 | 3:09:04 | |
We're talking about trying to shave off tens of billions, | 3:09:04 | 3:09:06 | |
but the hundreds of billions, possibly even trillions | 3:09:06 | 3:09:10 | |
that are avoided in terms of taxation | 3:09:10 | 3:09:13 | |
and I think that should be... | 3:09:13 | 3:09:15 | |
-CLAIRE: -Absolutely. | 3:09:15 | 3:09:16 | |
-All right. -That should be the very, very incisive focus. | 3:09:16 | 3:09:19 | |
There's quicker wins there if there's the willpower to do it. | 3:09:19 | 3:09:24 | |
Claire said at the beginning | 3:09:24 | 3:09:25 | |
that we should back off the financial sector, | 3:09:25 | 3:09:27 | |
-there is always some protectionism going on... -Oh, no, not quite. | 3:09:27 | 3:09:30 | |
-..and that I find more resentful. -All right. | 3:09:30 | 3:09:33 | |
The woman there in red, who I said I would come to. | 3:09:33 | 3:09:37 | |
What I was going to say was | 3:09:37 | 3:09:38 | |
they could recoup a lot of money | 3:09:38 | 3:09:41 | |
by hitting hard at people who defraud the benefit service | 3:09:41 | 3:09:46 | |
instead of nowadays, they just get a slap on the wrist. | 3:09:46 | 3:09:49 | |
All right. The woman at the back, in the back row. | 3:09:49 | 3:09:53 | |
Good evening, bearing in mind | 3:09:53 | 3:09:55 | |
that we have the highest number of single mothers in Europe, | 3:09:55 | 3:10:00 | |
why should single women who choose to become pregnant, | 3:10:00 | 3:10:03 | |
get free housing and benefits, | 3:10:03 | 3:10:06 | |
whereas other young people work hard, pay tax | 3:10:06 | 3:10:11 | |
-and can hardly afford a one-bedroomed home? -OK. | 3:10:11 | 3:10:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:10:14 | 3:10:18 | |
And you, sir. | 3:10:18 | 3:10:20 | |
I was wondering where you are getting these numbers from? | 3:10:20 | 3:10:23 | |
I got a sense that the Conservative government | 3:10:23 | 3:10:26 | |
is speaking the numbers that are suitable for them, | 3:10:26 | 3:10:29 | |
but the real numbers, | 3:10:29 | 3:10:31 | |
the numbers that are showing the problems for everybody | 3:10:31 | 3:10:33 | |
is somehow being hidden or brushed under the carpet all of the time. | 3:10:33 | 3:10:40 | |
What do you mean? The statistics are wrong? | 3:10:40 | 3:10:42 | |
The statistics are being picked up by certain... | 3:10:42 | 3:10:46 | |
The good statistics are being picked up, but proper statistics | 3:10:46 | 3:10:49 | |
are not being brought up into the air and discussed. | 3:10:49 | 3:10:52 | |
We have to leave it there. We have many more questions. | 3:10:52 | 3:10:56 | |
I would like to go on to one from Catherine Sharpe, please. | 3:10:56 | 3:10:59 | |
Has the BBC been fatally damaged in the public's mind | 3:10:59 | 3:11:03 | |
as a result of the Jimmy Savile scandal? | 3:11:03 | 3:11:06 | |
-Claire Perry. -D'you know, the more that comes out, | 3:11:06 | 3:11:10 | |
as somebody who used to love Jim'll Fix It, | 3:11:10 | 3:11:12 | |
the more disgusting and distressing actually the situation is. | 3:11:12 | 3:11:16 | |
Frankly, the man was a predatory paedophile | 3:11:16 | 3:11:20 | |
who plied his trade for 40 years | 3:11:20 | 3:11:22 | |
under five successive director generals. | 3:11:22 | 3:11:25 | |
I don't think it's particularly helpful now to have a firestorm | 3:11:25 | 3:11:28 | |
over who knew what when in the Newsnight programme. | 3:11:28 | 3:11:31 | |
The thing I find most worrying, | 3:11:31 | 3:11:33 | |
and I think it's the same in the Rochdale grooming cases, | 3:11:33 | 3:11:36 | |
is the voices of the victims I think have been completely ignored, | 3:11:36 | 3:11:39 | |
and I am sick to death | 3:11:39 | 3:11:41 | |
of young women coming forward years later for whatever reason, | 3:11:41 | 3:11:44 | |
not feeling that they could be believed or listened to | 3:11:44 | 3:11:46 | |
and that, I think, is the real tragedy. | 3:11:46 | 3:11:48 | |
I want to focus on that and make sure that doesn't happen again. | 3:11:48 | 3:11:51 | |
The BBC is doing too much navel-gazing | 3:11:51 | 3:11:55 | |
over who knew what when. | 3:11:55 | 3:11:57 | |
Mehdi Hasan. | 3:11:59 | 3:12:00 | |
For the first time in my life, | 3:12:02 | 3:12:03 | |
I literally agree with every single word | 3:12:03 | 3:12:05 | |
that Claire Perry just said. | 3:12:05 | 3:12:07 | |
We'll get you voting Tory one day, Mehdi. | 3:12:07 | 3:12:09 | |
Not quite, because a lot of your fellow Tory MPs | 3:12:09 | 3:12:11 | |
are pushing the anti-BBC banner. | 3:12:11 | 3:12:12 | |
I agree with you, the BBC has clearly failed in many areas - | 3:12:12 | 3:12:15 | |
there's two investigations going on. | 3:12:15 | 3:12:17 | |
Let's wait for their results. | 3:12:17 | 3:12:18 | |
I suspect the BBC won't come out so well out of either of them. | 3:12:18 | 3:12:22 | |
Let's not be distracted by this media navel-gazing, | 3:12:22 | 3:12:24 | |
whether Panorama is leading on Newsnight, | 3:12:24 | 3:12:27 | |
Newsnight is leading on Panorama, the Ten O'Clock News is leading on both. | 3:12:27 | 3:12:30 | |
It's absolutely absurd the kind of journalists obsessing over the BBC. | 3:12:30 | 3:12:33 | |
Whatever they did wrong, and we don't know what they did wrong, | 3:12:33 | 3:12:37 | |
George Entwistle and Peter Rippon did not sexually abuse children, | 3:12:37 | 3:12:40 | |
Jimmy Savile did. | 3:12:40 | 3:12:42 | |
Jimmy Savile got away with it, those women were abused and ignored. | 3:12:42 | 3:12:45 | |
We need to focus on how he got away with it and - | 3:12:45 | 3:12:47 | |
I'm sorry if this sounds cliched - to stop such things happening again. | 3:12:47 | 3:12:50 | |
That surely is the priority here, giving those women voices. | 3:12:50 | 3:12:53 | |
Trying to get closure, trying to get some justice, | 3:12:53 | 3:12:55 | |
and I'm glad the CPS this week | 3:12:55 | 3:12:56 | |
has actually come out with practical things that it'll do | 3:12:56 | 3:12:59 | |
to try and investigate these crimes and stop this from happening again. | 3:12:59 | 3:13:02 | |
This is not a media regulation story, this is a child sex abuse story. | 3:13:02 | 3:13:06 | |
The woman there. | 3:13:06 | 3:13:08 | |
In this vast media industry, | 3:13:12 | 3:13:14 | |
I think Jimmy Savile is just the tip of the iceberg | 3:13:14 | 3:13:16 | |
because as the two women in the panel here... | 3:13:16 | 3:13:19 | |
I don't think he is the only one. | 3:13:19 | 3:13:21 | |
There are many men, most men are in the top jobs here | 3:13:21 | 3:13:25 | |
and this is what they do to most women and what do they say to them? | 3:13:25 | 3:13:29 | |
"If you do this, that's how you'll stay on the job." | 3:13:29 | 3:13:31 | |
That's the main reason why they kept their mouths closed. | 3:13:31 | 3:13:34 | |
This is an assumption I'm making, but... | 3:13:34 | 3:13:37 | |
MEHDI: A pretty big one! | 3:13:37 | 3:13:39 | |
..as an inspiring journalist, it's quite scary, | 3:13:39 | 3:13:42 | |
because you hear these kinds of stories and you are scared. | 3:13:42 | 3:13:46 | |
You're like, | 3:13:46 | 3:13:47 | |
"What'll happen next if a person like Jimmy Savile | 3:13:47 | 3:13:50 | |
"did something like that?" | 3:13:50 | 3:13:52 | |
Paul Nuttall. | 3:13:52 | 3:13:53 | |
I think the one thing that's upset me really | 3:13:54 | 3:13:56 | |
about this story over the past couple of weeks, | 3:13:56 | 3:13:59 | |
is that people are talking about it | 3:13:59 | 3:14:00 | |
as if that was the culture in the 1970s. | 3:14:00 | 3:14:04 | |
But look, paedophilia isn't about culture, | 3:14:04 | 3:14:06 | |
paedophilia is a serious crime and it needs to be knocked out. | 3:14:06 | 3:14:11 | |
But in terms of the BBC, I agree with John Simpson. | 3:14:11 | 3:14:16 | |
I think the BBC is facing the biggest crisis | 3:14:16 | 3:14:19 | |
that it's faced in the past 50 years. | 3:14:19 | 3:14:22 | |
Now we have got people passing the buck, | 3:14:22 | 3:14:25 | |
people trying to pass the blame onto people | 3:14:25 | 3:14:28 | |
who are lower down the food chain, shall we say, in the BBC. | 3:14:28 | 3:14:31 | |
I haven't lost confidence in the BBC, | 3:14:31 | 3:14:33 | |
I've lost confidence in the BBC hierarchy. | 3:14:33 | 3:14:35 | |
I feel as if there's a bit of inevitability about this now. | 3:14:35 | 3:14:41 | |
Like the Andrew Mitchell case, I think it's gone on too long. | 3:14:41 | 3:14:45 | |
It's only going to get bigger and in the end, heads will roll, | 3:14:45 | 3:14:49 | |
and I suspect it will end up with the director general having to go. | 3:14:49 | 3:14:52 | |
But, look, the real point in this is that 300 people have come forward | 3:14:52 | 3:14:57 | |
and said that they have been victims. | 3:14:57 | 3:14:59 | |
They're the people we should be focusing on | 3:14:59 | 3:15:01 | |
and we should wish the police well in their investigations | 3:15:01 | 3:15:04 | |
because there are perpetrators still out there | 3:15:04 | 3:15:06 | |
who need to be brought to justice. | 3:15:06 | 3:15:08 | |
Now, what do we do with Savile himself? | 3:15:08 | 3:15:11 | |
His gravestone has been removed. | 3:15:11 | 3:15:13 | |
We've had street names which have been taken down. | 3:15:13 | 3:15:16 | |
I would suggest the next move in how to deal with Jimmy Savile | 3:15:16 | 3:15:19 | |
would be to strip him of his knighthood. | 3:15:19 | 3:15:21 | |
It'll take a change in the law. Let's do it. | 3:15:21 | 3:15:23 | |
Strip him of his knighthood and also, | 3:15:23 | 3:15:24 | |
let's get the Catholic church | 3:15:24 | 3:15:26 | |
to do away with his papal knighthood to boot, | 3:15:26 | 3:15:29 | |
because that man needs to be punished even in death. | 3:15:29 | 3:15:31 | |
You, sir, on the gangway there. | 3:15:36 | 3:15:37 | |
Do you think that everyone in entertainment, | 3:15:39 | 3:15:41 | |
dealing with young children, should have a CRB check? | 3:15:41 | 3:15:45 | |
-Vince Cable, I'm sure they do, don't they? -I'm sure they do. | 3:15:45 | 3:15:48 | |
If they're employed they will have CRB checks. | 3:15:48 | 3:15:51 | |
Can I just go back to the original question, which Catherine asked? | 3:15:51 | 3:15:55 | |
"Is the BBC fatally damaged?" | 3:15:55 | 3:15:57 | |
It is damaged, but not fatally. | 3:15:57 | 3:16:00 | |
I would say in its defence, | 3:16:00 | 3:16:01 | |
what other media organisation in the world | 3:16:01 | 3:16:04 | |
would put out a programme attacking itself, | 3:16:04 | 3:16:06 | |
which is what it did with the Panorama programme? | 3:16:06 | 3:16:09 | |
I mean, rather brutally exposed the complete failure. | 3:16:09 | 3:16:11 | |
I think the public almost certainly do wonder | 3:16:11 | 3:16:15 | |
what on earth these extraordinary highly-paid executives were doing | 3:16:15 | 3:16:18 | |
in making such a complete crass mishandling of this. | 3:16:18 | 3:16:21 | |
But that isn't the central problem and I agree with the other speakers, | 3:16:21 | 3:16:25 | |
the real issue here is not the programme | 3:16:25 | 3:16:28 | |
that the BBC didn't put out and the editorially bad decision. | 3:16:28 | 3:16:32 | |
The real appalling thing | 3:16:32 | 3:16:33 | |
is how this man operated for three decades or longer, | 3:16:33 | 3:16:37 | |
enormous cases of abuse. | 3:16:37 | 3:16:39 | |
The real scandal, which I think really does need investigating | 3:16:39 | 3:16:43 | |
is why was it that in 2009, when he was still alive, | 3:16:43 | 3:16:47 | |
the Crown Prosecution Service had a lot of evidence in their hands, | 3:16:47 | 3:16:53 | |
they had the evidence of people like that very brave woman, Karen Davies, | 3:16:53 | 3:16:56 | |
the cancer sufferer who explained brutally what had happened, | 3:16:56 | 3:17:01 | |
and yet, they didn't prosecute and that really does need pursuing. | 3:17:01 | 3:17:06 | |
I agree with the panel on the broader question | 3:17:06 | 3:17:08 | |
that it isn't about who said what to whom in the BBC | 3:17:08 | 3:17:12 | |
the real crime here is that paedophilia, | 3:17:12 | 3:17:15 | |
on an epic scale, was tolerated. | 3:17:15 | 3:17:17 | |
People turned the other way, prosecutions were not pursued | 3:17:17 | 3:17:20 | |
and that's the really deep scandal. | 3:17:20 | 3:17:22 | |
The person up there on the top right-hand side, yes. | 3:17:23 | 3:17:27 | |
Thank you. Just widening this slightly | 3:17:27 | 3:17:31 | |
to the broader issue of BBC governance, | 3:17:31 | 3:17:34 | |
I think I heard Chris Patten give a talk a day or two ago | 3:17:34 | 3:17:40 | |
where he was very apologetic and supportive of BBC management. | 3:17:40 | 3:17:45 | |
I thought the role of the BBC Trust | 3:17:45 | 3:17:47 | |
was to act as the guardian of the licence payer | 3:17:47 | 3:17:52 | |
and I don't see that | 3:17:52 | 3:17:53 | |
they are maintaining a sufficiently independent position on this. | 3:17:53 | 3:17:57 | |
They seem to be acting purely as cheerleaders for BBC... | 3:17:57 | 3:18:00 | |
The management line, | 3:18:00 | 3:18:03 | |
as opposed to the viewer and licence fee payer. | 3:18:03 | 3:18:07 | |
Emily Thornberry. | 3:18:07 | 3:18:08 | |
There's a couple of things I want to say about this. | 3:18:08 | 3:18:11 | |
I don't know how many people here watched the Panorama programme, | 3:18:11 | 3:18:14 | |
but it was really harrowing to watch. | 3:18:14 | 3:18:17 | |
I thought watching Karin Ward give the evidence that she did | 3:18:17 | 3:18:22 | |
and also the little boy who had been a Cub Scout, | 3:18:22 | 3:18:25 | |
who'd been on Jim'll Fix It | 3:18:25 | 3:18:27 | |
and him being picked out by Savile and having a ribbon put round him | 3:18:27 | 3:18:30 | |
and then taken back to a dressing room and being abused | 3:18:30 | 3:18:33 | |
was something I won't ever forget. | 3:18:33 | 3:18:35 | |
I also thought that what was really shocking | 3:18:35 | 3:18:39 | |
and more shocking than anything that has been happening recently, | 3:18:39 | 3:18:41 | |
was when he was going around on Nationwide and he had a bus, | 3:18:41 | 3:18:45 | |
and he was using the bus to take kids into the back and abuse, | 3:18:45 | 3:18:48 | |
rumours were going round saying something was going on | 3:18:48 | 3:18:51 | |
and it was taken up to higher management, and, somehow or other, | 3:18:51 | 3:18:54 | |
higher management only spoke to other people on the floor, | 3:18:54 | 3:18:56 | |
they didn't speak to the people on the floor below | 3:18:56 | 3:18:59 | |
like the people who had been around | 3:18:59 | 3:19:01 | |
and who actually might be able to tell them one way or the other, | 3:19:01 | 3:19:04 | |
and turned a blind eye, and so it continued. | 3:19:04 | 3:19:06 | |
It continued for decades, and I agree, you know what? | 3:19:06 | 3:19:09 | |
-I agree with you, Claire. -Thanks. | 3:19:09 | 3:19:11 | |
This may be the only time I ever will! | 3:19:11 | 3:19:13 | |
But I agree with you that, actually, | 3:19:13 | 3:19:15 | |
we should be focusing first and foremost on the victims. | 3:19:15 | 3:19:17 | |
I'm really disappointed in the Crown Prosecution Service | 3:19:17 | 3:19:20 | |
for letting down these victims. | 3:19:20 | 3:19:22 | |
You know, when evidence comes forward, | 3:19:22 | 3:19:24 | |
I'm really shocked that they did not go ahead with prosecuting, | 3:19:24 | 3:19:27 | |
and it's for that reason that I wrote, in my capacity as Shadow AG, | 3:19:27 | 3:19:31 | |
to Her Majesty's Inspector of the Crown Prosecution Service | 3:19:31 | 3:19:34 | |
the day after the stuff came out and asked for an independent inspection. | 3:19:34 | 3:19:37 | |
That is being investigated now? | 3:19:37 | 3:19:39 | |
It's being investigated by the CPS. | 3:19:39 | 3:19:41 | |
It's a little bit like the BBC doing an investigation of itself | 3:19:41 | 3:19:44 | |
or the health service doing an investigation of itself, | 3:19:44 | 3:19:46 | |
or Broadmoor doing an investigation of itself. | 3:19:46 | 3:19:48 | |
I think that Harriet Harman is right, | 3:19:48 | 3:19:51 | |
we need to have a larger investigation | 3:19:51 | 3:19:53 | |
and we need to look at the sexualisation of 15-year-olds, | 3:19:53 | 3:19:57 | |
the way in which girls are not taken seriously. | 3:19:57 | 3:20:00 | |
The way in which we treat them | 3:20:00 | 3:20:01 | |
and, frankly, it is not something that simply happened in the '70s | 3:20:01 | 3:20:05 | |
and has not happened since, we just need to see it from Rochdale. | 3:20:05 | 3:20:09 | |
We need to see Rochdale and see that when we get vulnerable victims, | 3:20:09 | 3:20:12 | |
they need to be treated with particular care | 3:20:12 | 3:20:15 | |
and with some responsibility. | 3:20:15 | 3:20:17 | |
To see these people come forward and say, | 3:20:17 | 3:20:20 | |
"I feel so guilty about what happened. | 3:20:20 | 3:20:22 | |
"I feel as though it was my fault. | 3:20:22 | 3:20:23 | |
"If only I'd complained, | 3:20:23 | 3:20:24 | |
"many other generations would not have been abused." | 3:20:24 | 3:20:27 | |
-That's appalling to hear that. -The man with a beard in the middle. | 3:20:27 | 3:20:30 | |
Where are we going to find the Hercules | 3:20:30 | 3:20:33 | |
to clean out this Augean mess that we have in the public sector? | 3:20:33 | 3:20:36 | |
We've got the BBC investigating itself | 3:20:36 | 3:20:38 | |
over covering up of paedophilia. | 3:20:38 | 3:20:40 | |
We've got MPs with their snouts in the trough again! | 3:20:40 | 3:20:43 | |
We've got all sorts. | 3:20:43 | 3:20:45 | |
We've got coppers and the Hillsborough thing's come out again. | 3:20:45 | 3:20:47 | |
We can't get away from it | 3:20:47 | 3:20:49 | |
until we find some way of actually really going in | 3:20:49 | 3:20:52 | |
and shaking everything down, root and branch, | 3:20:52 | 3:20:54 | |
and kicking this wickedness out. | 3:20:54 | 3:20:56 | |
I think the BBC's investigations are independent. | 3:21:02 | 3:21:05 | |
They've appointed outsiders to do it. | 3:21:05 | 3:21:07 | |
It's a firm of lawyers who are used for handling the firestorms | 3:21:07 | 3:21:10 | |
that you normally get when things like this happen. | 3:21:10 | 3:21:13 | |
They are hardly independent cos I was reading today, | 3:21:13 | 3:21:16 | |
one of the biggest clients of these lawyers who are doing it is the BBC! | 3:21:16 | 3:21:20 | |
Can I just say...? I mean, | 3:21:21 | 3:21:23 | |
it's not just the BBC who've got to answer questions here, | 3:21:23 | 3:21:26 | |
it's the CPS, it's the national press, actually. | 3:21:26 | 3:21:29 | |
Because there was... | 3:21:29 | 3:21:31 | |
The rumours were well known. | 3:21:31 | 3:21:33 | |
We know the national press looked at it in 1992 - a certain newspaper, | 3:21:33 | 3:21:36 | |
and it was dropped for legal reasons. | 3:21:36 | 3:21:38 | |
Five police forces were investigating Savile | 3:21:38 | 3:21:40 | |
and I think the NHS has questions to answer | 3:21:40 | 3:21:43 | |
for giving him the right to roam round Leeds. | 3:21:43 | 3:21:45 | |
They gave him a bedroom in Stoke Mandeville Hospital. | 3:21:45 | 3:21:48 | |
And an office in Broadmoor, which is outrageous. | 3:21:48 | 3:21:51 | |
All of these organisations have got questions to answer, | 3:21:51 | 3:21:54 | |
it's not just the BBC. | 3:21:54 | 3:21:55 | |
We'll go on. | 3:21:55 | 3:21:57 | |
I'll take a question from Taj. | 3:21:57 | 3:22:00 | |
But just before I do, the chairman of the Conservative Party | 3:22:00 | 3:22:03 | |
complained that, when he was on Question Time two weeks ago, | 3:22:03 | 3:22:07 | |
he was give an brief by the BBC | 3:22:07 | 3:22:10 | |
about what he should say about the BBC. | 3:22:10 | 3:22:13 | |
I've had no briefings, I want to reassure you. | 3:22:13 | 3:22:15 | |
Good. I'm glad to hear it. | 3:22:15 | 3:22:17 | |
-I wouldn't listen anyway. -Good. | 3:22:17 | 3:22:19 | |
SCATTERED LAUGHTER | 3:22:19 | 3:22:21 | |
Taj, please. | 3:22:21 | 3:22:23 | |
Should David Cameron give the European Court the two-finger salute | 3:22:23 | 3:22:26 | |
by not granting prisoners the right to vote? | 3:22:26 | 3:22:29 | |
It's a curious position on this right to vote, | 3:22:29 | 3:22:32 | |
because the Prime Minister says "over his dead body" | 3:22:32 | 3:22:35 | |
will prisoner get the right to vote and, at the same time, | 3:22:35 | 3:22:38 | |
his own Attorney General is saying... | 3:22:38 | 3:22:40 | |
Advising a committee that, actually... | 3:22:40 | 3:22:42 | |
Let's just quote the words, | 3:22:42 | 3:22:43 | |
"It could be thrown out by the Council of Europe, | 3:22:43 | 3:22:46 | |
"compensation claims will be made | 3:22:46 | 3:22:48 | |
"and Britain will be seen by other countries | 3:22:48 | 3:22:51 | |
"as moving away from our strict adherence to human rights laws." | 3:22:51 | 3:22:55 | |
So, it looks as though Prime Minister and Attorney General | 3:22:55 | 3:22:58 | |
are rather at loggerheads, Vince Cable. What's your view? | 3:22:58 | 3:23:01 | |
-I don't think so. -Oh! Really? | 3:23:01 | 3:23:03 | |
He doesn't need to give the European Court the two-finger salute, | 3:23:03 | 3:23:06 | |
because the European Court are not arguing | 3:23:06 | 3:23:08 | |
that prisoners should be given the vote. | 3:23:08 | 3:23:11 | |
They're saying that not all prisoners | 3:23:11 | 3:23:12 | |
should be excluded from having the vote, | 3:23:12 | 3:23:14 | |
which is a very, very different proposition. | 3:23:14 | 3:23:17 | |
I mean, I totally agree with the Prime Minister | 3:23:17 | 3:23:19 | |
that when people are put in prison, they lose their liberties | 3:23:19 | 3:23:21 | |
and one key liberty is the right to vote. He's absolutely right, | 3:23:21 | 3:23:24 | |
and that's the way Parliament has voted. | 3:23:24 | 3:23:26 | |
What the European Court has said | 3:23:26 | 3:23:29 | |
is that not everybody should, as a matter of principle, be stopped. | 3:23:29 | 3:23:33 | |
At the moment, there are people, for example, who are in prison | 3:23:33 | 3:23:35 | |
for not paying fines who are allowed to vote. | 3:23:35 | 3:23:38 | |
I would have thought there are other cases too. | 3:23:38 | 3:23:40 | |
I mean, I was recently had an open prison in Lancashire | 3:23:40 | 3:23:44 | |
and before people are released, who are threat to the public, | 3:23:44 | 3:23:47 | |
they're allowed home at weekends. | 3:23:47 | 3:23:48 | |
I mean, you've got some people who are half-in, half-out of prison. | 3:23:48 | 3:23:53 | |
It scarcely requires enormous imagination | 3:23:53 | 3:23:56 | |
to see how the principle which the European Court laid down | 3:23:56 | 3:23:59 | |
could be honoured in the law. | 3:23:59 | 3:24:01 | |
-"It makes me physically..." -So, the two positions are not in contradiction. | 3:24:01 | 3:24:04 | |
David Cameron - "It makes me physically ill | 3:24:04 | 3:24:06 | |
"to even contemplate having to give the vote | 3:24:06 | 3:24:09 | |
"to ANYONE who is in prison." | 3:24:09 | 3:24:11 | |
Well, people in prison at the moment can vote if, | 3:24:11 | 3:24:14 | |
I think in some specific cases, if there is a fine default. | 3:24:14 | 3:24:17 | |
-So he's wrong? -As a matter of fact. | 3:24:17 | 3:24:19 | |
No, I share his indignation at the idea that extreme cases, | 3:24:19 | 3:24:23 | |
whether murderers or rapists or whatever, | 3:24:23 | 3:24:26 | |
shouldn't be treated the same as everybody else. | 3:24:26 | 3:24:28 | |
-No-one is proposing that. -But nobody is actually proposing that. | 3:24:28 | 3:24:31 | |
What the European Court has ruled | 3:24:31 | 3:24:33 | |
is that there shouldn't be a blanket ban | 3:24:33 | 3:24:36 | |
and that seems to be sensible and right and balanced | 3:24:36 | 3:24:39 | |
and something that could be entirely reconciled with his position, | 3:24:39 | 3:24:43 | |
which is mine, and the views of Parliament. | 3:24:43 | 3:24:46 | |
Emily Thornberry? You're the Shadow Attorney General. | 3:24:46 | 3:24:50 | |
There was a big vote against prisoners getting the right to vote. | 3:24:50 | 3:24:54 | |
Last year, I think it was. | 3:24:54 | 3:24:57 | |
Do you think Cameron is right and should say, "No, absolutely not"? | 3:24:57 | 3:25:01 | |
or is Dominic Grieve's argument right, that...? | 3:25:01 | 3:25:04 | |
I think I would start with... | 3:25:05 | 3:25:07 | |
It's Labour's position that we are against the idea | 3:25:07 | 3:25:10 | |
of convicted prisoners having the right to vote. | 3:25:10 | 3:25:13 | |
It's Parliament's view, and frankly, it's the public's view as well. | 3:25:13 | 3:25:16 | |
Now, in my role as Shadow Attorney General, | 3:25:16 | 3:25:19 | |
I obviously also have to give legal advice | 3:25:19 | 3:25:21 | |
and so my legal advice would be that the European Court is saying | 3:25:21 | 3:25:25 | |
that it is wrong for us to have a blanket ban, | 3:25:25 | 3:25:27 | |
that we would be in breach of our international obligations | 3:25:27 | 3:25:30 | |
if we didn't do something about this and therefore, indeed, | 3:25:30 | 3:25:33 | |
ministers would be in breach of the Ministerial Code. | 3:25:33 | 3:25:36 | |
I mean, you have to, as Attorney General, tell the Prime Minister | 3:25:36 | 3:25:39 | |
or the Leader of the Opposition these truths. | 3:25:39 | 3:25:43 | |
Because these are truths | 3:25:43 | 3:25:45 | |
and we need, as lawyers, to be able to give them that advice. | 3:25:45 | 3:25:49 | |
I mean, there is developing a doctrine, | 3:25:49 | 3:25:53 | |
which is called the margin of appreciation, | 3:25:53 | 3:25:55 | |
which is basically saying, we all sign up to the European Convention, | 3:25:55 | 3:25:58 | |
we all say that there are certain basic standards | 3:25:58 | 3:26:00 | |
that they must comply with but Europe is beginning to understand | 3:26:00 | 3:26:04 | |
that countries do have different cultures, different backgrounds, | 3:26:04 | 3:26:07 | |
different politics and, over the years, | 3:26:07 | 3:26:09 | |
there have been a number of decisions | 3:26:09 | 3:26:11 | |
in relation to prisoner voting | 3:26:11 | 3:26:13 | |
and they are beginning to, more and more, understand | 3:26:13 | 3:26:15 | |
that there is a margin of appreciation. | 3:26:15 | 3:26:18 | |
I mean, I just don't think the European Court | 3:26:18 | 3:26:19 | |
are going to go to the wall on this for Britain. | 3:26:19 | 3:26:22 | |
-Ah! So you'd defy them? -If you compare... -Is that what you mean? | 3:26:22 | 3:26:25 | |
You're doing lawyer's talk, or Shadow Attorney General's talk. | 3:26:25 | 3:26:28 | |
You asked me as Shadow Attorney General, | 3:26:28 | 3:26:30 | |
and I'm telling you the advice I would give to Ed Miliband. | 3:26:30 | 3:26:33 | |
If he said, "It sticks in my craw to give a vote to a prisoner," | 3:26:33 | 3:26:36 | |
-you'd say... -I'd say, well, for 13 years, | 3:26:36 | 3:26:39 | |
we did not give votes to prisoners | 3:26:39 | 3:26:41 | |
and, as a politician, as well as a lawyer, | 3:26:41 | 3:26:43 | |
-my politician's advice would be different. -OK. | 3:26:43 | 3:26:45 | |
So, there's lawyer's advice and politician's advice. | 3:26:45 | 3:26:48 | |
As Shadow Attorney General, you straddle both horses, | 3:26:48 | 3:26:50 | |
that's why I've said my lawyer's advice is one thing, | 3:26:50 | 3:26:53 | |
political is another. | 3:26:53 | 3:26:54 | |
-As we discovered during the run-up to the Iraq war. -No. Now, now... | 3:26:54 | 3:26:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:26:57 | 3:27:02 | |
Well, I agree with the Prime Minister on this. | 3:27:03 | 3:27:06 | |
It makes me sick to my stomach, | 3:27:06 | 3:27:07 | |
the idea that prisoners should have the vote. | 3:27:07 | 3:27:09 | |
But what makes me more sick | 3:27:09 | 3:27:11 | |
is the fact that our own sovereign Parliament, | 3:27:11 | 3:27:14 | |
our own elected representatives, have voted to say no | 3:27:14 | 3:27:18 | |
to votes for prisoners and, actually, | 3:27:18 | 3:27:20 | |
we're being told we have to do it by a court | 3:27:20 | 3:27:23 | |
which actually isn't even in this country, by judges who are faceless. | 3:27:23 | 3:27:26 | |
It's absolutely wrong. | 3:27:26 | 3:27:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:27:27 | 3:27:31 | |
Claire Perry? | 3:27:31 | 3:27:32 | |
-Sorry. -Can I just make another point on this? | 3:27:32 | 3:27:34 | |
Look, criminals have broken their contract with society. | 3:27:34 | 3:27:37 | |
Society should break its contract with them. | 3:27:37 | 3:27:39 | |
Now, here's the interesting point on this. | 3:27:39 | 3:27:41 | |
At no point in the European Convention of Human Rights | 3:27:41 | 3:27:44 | |
does it mention votes. | 3:27:44 | 3:27:46 | |
In fact, it was the Atlee Government that made sure it wasn't mentioned. | 3:27:46 | 3:27:50 | |
We're in a situation now in this country, | 3:27:50 | 3:27:52 | |
where the only people who can't vote are peers... | 3:27:52 | 3:27:55 | |
..felons and lunatics. | 3:27:56 | 3:27:58 | |
Now, I can see all sorts of legal wrangles coming, | 3:27:58 | 3:28:01 | |
cos where are we going to go? | 3:28:01 | 3:28:03 | |
The logical conclusion is we give prisoners the vote, | 3:28:03 | 3:28:06 | |
we give lunatics the vote. | 3:28:06 | 3:28:08 | |
Some could say that the lunatics run the country, but there we are. | 3:28:08 | 3:28:11 | |
All right. | 3:28:11 | 3:28:12 | |
Here's a big point. What are we going to do, David? | 3:28:12 | 3:28:15 | |
Are we going to defy the fines or are we going to leave the ECHR? | 3:28:15 | 3:28:19 | |
Because we can't! I'll tell you why. | 3:28:19 | 3:28:21 | |
Because to be a member of the European Union, | 3:28:21 | 3:28:24 | |
you have to be in the European Court of Human Rights. | 3:28:24 | 3:28:26 | |
At it's things like votes for prisoners | 3:28:26 | 3:28:28 | |
which actually make people more sceptical about Europe | 3:28:28 | 3:28:31 | |
and it's one of the reasons why more people want a referendum | 3:28:31 | 3:28:34 | |
on our membership of the EU. | 3:28:34 | 3:28:36 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:28:36 | 3:28:38 | |
It's not, of course... | 3:28:38 | 3:28:39 | |
Well, you can argue about how concomitant it is | 3:28:39 | 3:28:41 | |
with membership of the Union. | 3:28:41 | 3:28:42 | |
Taj, you asked the question, what do you make of the answers? | 3:28:42 | 3:28:45 | |
Vince Cable said that it's not all prisoners | 3:28:45 | 3:28:48 | |
are going to be banned from voting. | 3:28:48 | 3:28:51 | |
But, you go to prison for having committed serious crimes | 3:28:51 | 3:28:54 | |
against society, so you forfeit your right to have a say | 3:28:54 | 3:28:57 | |
in who should be running our country. | 3:28:57 | 3:28:59 | |
I just want to say, | 3:28:59 | 3:29:01 | |
the European Convention on Human Rights itself | 3:29:01 | 3:29:03 | |
is a very good piece of law, but for far too long, for far too many years, | 3:29:03 | 3:29:08 | |
some decisions have been devoid of common sense | 3:29:08 | 3:29:12 | |
-and the human responsibilities. -Mehdi Hasan. | 3:29:12 | 3:29:14 | |
I don't agree. I don't think people go to prison for serious offences, | 3:29:14 | 3:29:18 | |
I think there's a bigger question here. | 3:29:18 | 3:29:20 | |
We lock up far too many people for all sorts of minor offences, | 3:29:20 | 3:29:22 | |
for all sorts of non-violent and trivial offences... | 3:29:22 | 3:29:25 | |
We have one of the highest per capita prison populations | 3:29:25 | 3:29:27 | |
in Western Europe, so I don't even buy the argument. | 3:29:27 | 3:29:29 | |
Not everyone in prison is a crazy psychopath | 3:29:29 | 3:29:31 | |
and no-one is suggesting giving the crazy psychopath votes. | 3:29:31 | 3:29:34 | |
So, Vince is right there, this is about blanket bans. | 3:29:34 | 3:29:37 | |
And your question was about giving a two-fingered salute to the ECHR. | 3:29:37 | 3:29:40 | |
I mean, if Vladimir Putin is watching Question Time | 3:29:40 | 3:29:43 | |
on iPlayer Catch-up and he heard your question, he'd be delighted. | 3:29:43 | 3:29:46 | |
If the President of Belarus was watching, he'd be delighted too. | 3:29:46 | 3:29:49 | |
We can't go around saying, | 3:29:49 | 3:29:50 | |
"We want to give two fingers to international human rights law," | 3:29:50 | 3:29:53 | |
and lecture the rest of the world | 3:29:53 | 3:29:54 | |
that they must follow the same human rights law. | 3:29:54 | 3:29:56 | |
That's deeply hypocritical. And as for Paul's point | 3:29:56 | 3:29:59 | |
about how unpopular it is and sovereign judges, | 3:29:59 | 3:30:02 | |
just a couple of weeks ago, Theresa May was keeping Gary McKinnon | 3:30:02 | 3:30:05 | |
in this country, a hugely popular move, | 3:30:05 | 3:30:07 | |
on the basis of human rights legislation, | 3:30:07 | 3:30:09 | |
on the basis of the ECHR. | 3:30:09 | 3:30:11 | |
So, suddenly it's wonderful, and suddenly it's the enemy. | 3:30:11 | 3:30:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 3:30:14 | 3:30:15 | |
OK, I'm going to stop you. | 3:30:15 | 3:30:17 | |
Is there somebody with their arm up there? No. | 3:30:17 | 3:30:20 | |
All right, you, Sir. And then I will come to you, Claire. | 3:30:20 | 3:30:22 | |
I'd just like to call Paul up on... | 3:30:22 | 3:30:24 | |
Did you call people | 3:30:24 | 3:30:26 | |
who are sectioned under the Mental Health Act "lunatics"? | 3:30:26 | 3:30:29 | |
Because that's quite offensive. | 3:30:29 | 3:30:31 | |
Hate to be... Hate to... | 3:30:31 | 3:30:33 | |
It does stipulate quite clearly that the people who can't vote | 3:30:33 | 3:30:36 | |
-in this country are peers, felons and lunatics. -All right. | 3:30:36 | 3:30:40 | |
Claire Perry. | 3:30:40 | 3:30:41 | |
Um, the European Court of Human Rights was set up by Britain | 3:30:41 | 3:30:45 | |
as a way of preventing genocide ever happening again in Europe. | 3:30:45 | 3:30:49 | |
It was a fine and noble aim | 3:30:49 | 3:30:50 | |
and it has strayed so far from that remit, in my view. | 3:30:50 | 3:30:53 | |
I had the pleasure of being part of the UK delegation | 3:30:53 | 3:30:56 | |
to the European Council. | 3:30:56 | 3:30:58 | |
You think our money is being wasted there with people talking nonsense. | 3:30:58 | 3:31:01 | |
You're right, that's what's happening. | 3:31:01 | 3:31:03 | |
On this issue, I have to say, | 3:31:03 | 3:31:05 | |
I am slightly in the wishy-washy camp of thinking | 3:31:05 | 3:31:07 | |
prisoners who are being rehabilitated | 3:31:07 | 3:31:10 | |
perhaps could earn this right. | 3:31:10 | 3:31:12 | |
It's part of becoming a responsible citizen again. | 3:31:12 | 3:31:15 | |
But what I want is that decision to be a sovereign decision here. | 3:31:15 | 3:31:18 | |
It is a decision for British politicians and British courts. | 3:31:18 | 3:31:21 | |
And frankly, Mehdi, you talk about Russia and Belarus, | 3:31:21 | 3:31:23 | |
the scale of human rights abuses going on | 3:31:23 | 3:31:26 | |
amongst other countries in Europe pales... | 3:31:26 | 3:31:28 | |
My point was you can't pick and choose | 3:31:28 | 3:31:30 | |
which bits you want to put two fingers up to. | 3:31:30 | 3:31:32 | |
I think that given that the court has a multi-year backlog of cases, | 3:31:32 | 3:31:36 | |
we would be reasonable in doing what the Prime Minister says, | 3:31:36 | 3:31:39 | |
which is, it is a decision for us. Come on, sue us, bring it on. | 3:31:39 | 3:31:42 | |
All right, thank you very much. We've got only a few minutes left, | 3:31:42 | 3:31:46 | |
but we've got UKIP here, we've got the Liberal Democrats, | 3:31:46 | 3:31:49 | |
we got the Tories here, we've got political commentator, Mehdi Hasan | 3:31:49 | 3:31:52 | |
and we've got the Shadow Attorney General. | 3:31:52 | 3:31:54 | |
We've got a question from Aidan Watson. | 3:31:54 | 3:31:56 | |
And we only have a few minutes to answer it. | 3:31:56 | 3:31:58 | |
In recent polls, | 3:31:58 | 3:31:59 | |
the Liberal Democrats have come out as fourth behind UKIP. | 3:31:59 | 3:32:02 | |
Should they leave the coalition | 3:32:02 | 3:32:03 | |
before they lose whatever support they still have? | 3:32:03 | 3:32:05 | |
Yes. Vince Cable. | 3:32:05 | 3:32:07 | |
No, we're not going to leave the coalition. | 3:32:07 | 3:32:10 | |
We've taken on a very challenging, very difficult task. | 3:32:10 | 3:32:13 | |
The country faced a major emergency two and a half years ago, | 3:32:13 | 3:32:16 | |
a serious economic crisis. | 3:32:16 | 3:32:18 | |
We felt we should contribute to that and provide stable government | 3:32:18 | 3:32:21 | |
over five years. | 3:32:21 | 3:32:22 | |
There are many things we disagree with the Conservatives about | 3:32:22 | 3:32:25 | |
and we'll continue to argue with them, | 3:32:25 | 3:32:27 | |
but the core purpose of the coalition remains intact. | 3:32:27 | 3:32:29 | |
What about slipping behind UKIP? | 3:32:29 | 3:32:31 | |
Yes, well, we'll see whether the UKIP party win 50-plus seats | 3:32:31 | 3:32:34 | |
at the next general election. | 3:32:34 | 3:32:36 | |
I suspect they won't. But let's argue that when we come to it. | 3:32:36 | 3:32:39 | |
We think we have a good record and we will defend it, | 3:32:39 | 3:32:42 | |
and I think the public will understand | 3:32:42 | 3:32:44 | |
that we did something difficult, but right, | 3:32:44 | 3:32:46 | |
and that will be recognised when we come to the next election. | 3:32:46 | 3:32:49 | |
OK. Paul Nuttall. | 3:32:49 | 3:32:51 | |
Might be the Tories that ought to leave the coalition | 3:32:51 | 3:32:53 | |
if they see you making headway, shouldn't they? | 3:32:53 | 3:32:56 | |
Well, we'll talk about that down the line. | 3:32:56 | 3:32:59 | |
I mean, UKIP is the fastest growing political party in Britain. | 3:32:59 | 3:33:01 | |
We're polling now around 10% to 12% quite regularly in opinion polls. | 3:33:01 | 3:33:07 | |
We're expected to do well in the Corby by-election. | 3:33:07 | 3:33:10 | |
In fact, we're fielding more candidates | 3:33:10 | 3:33:12 | |
in the police commissioner elections than the Liberal Democrats. | 3:33:12 | 3:33:16 | |
That sort of tells us where we are at the moment, | 3:33:16 | 3:33:19 | |
and we're projected to go on and win the 2014 General Election... | 3:33:19 | 3:33:21 | |
Sorry, European election. Well...! LAUGHTER | 3:33:21 | 3:33:24 | |
Let's see where we are in 2015. It could be very interesting indeed. | 3:33:24 | 3:33:28 | |
Mehdi Hasan, is it time for the coalition to break up? | 3:33:28 | 3:33:31 | |
-Purely in self-interested political terms? -Yeah... | 3:33:31 | 3:33:33 | |
Do you think Vince is right to stick with it? | 3:33:33 | 3:33:35 | |
Vince points out that UKIP won't win 50 seats at the next election. | 3:33:35 | 3:33:38 | |
The problem is, Vince's party won't win 50 seats at the next election, | 3:33:38 | 3:33:41 | |
that's the problem. | 3:33:41 | 3:33:43 | |
Come the autumn of 2014, as Lib Dem MPs in marginal seats | 3:33:43 | 3:33:46 | |
are staring into the abyss, the cry will go up, | 3:33:46 | 3:33:48 | |
"Call for Vince, call for Vince," | 3:33:48 | 3:33:50 | |
and I think there'll be a great moment there | 3:33:50 | 3:33:52 | |
to see if they have the backbone to get rid of an unpopular leader, | 3:33:52 | 3:33:55 | |
try and get in another leader who used to be quite popular | 3:33:55 | 3:33:58 | |
and then, get a bit of a bounce, a bit of a honeymoon period. | 3:33:58 | 3:34:01 | |
If they time it right, they might be able to save themselves. | 3:34:01 | 3:34:04 | |
Otherwise, I suspect, they're heading for meltdown. | 3:34:04 | 3:34:07 | |
-Claire Perry. -Well, the economy, back to Eamonn's first question, | 3:34:07 | 3:34:10 | |
-the economy is healing, we are dealing with the deficit. -0% growth. | 3:34:10 | 3:34:14 | |
We came together because we were facing | 3:34:14 | 3:34:16 | |
the biggest peacetime economic crisis this country has ever seen, | 3:34:16 | 3:34:20 | |
thanks to the totally irresponsible... | 3:34:20 | 3:34:21 | |
-Yeah, we get the speech. -You made it worse. | 3:34:21 | 3:34:23 | |
Are you alarmed by the rise of UKIP? | 3:34:23 | 3:34:25 | |
Look. Paul, forgive me, | 3:34:25 | 3:34:27 | |
what is your policy for cutting the deficit? | 3:34:27 | 3:34:30 | |
-You don't have one. -Hang on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. | 3:34:30 | 3:34:33 | |
-LAUGHTER -Don't ask him! | 3:34:33 | 3:34:35 | |
Claire, just make a political point, | 3:34:35 | 3:34:38 | |
what is your view of the rise of UKIP and the effect it will have? | 3:34:38 | 3:34:41 | |
I think UKIP is a natural... | 3:34:41 | 3:34:43 | |
It is a tough, slow recovery, | 3:34:43 | 3:34:47 | |
and UKIP is unnatural protest place for many people to go, | 3:34:47 | 3:34:49 | |
who could never bring themselves to vote ever again for Labour, | 3:34:49 | 3:34:53 | |
given the wreckage that was wrought on the country. | 3:34:53 | 3:34:55 | |
It is a natural protest. | 3:34:55 | 3:34:57 | |
Vince, I know I'll be fighting against Liberal candidates, | 3:34:57 | 3:34:59 | |
we will wish each other well, but the coalition will last until 2015. | 3:34:59 | 3:35:02 | |
And you have no time for UKIP? | 3:35:02 | 3:35:05 | |
Well, I... UKIP... | 3:35:05 | 3:35:06 | |
UKIP have a lot of time for the Tories. | 3:35:06 | 3:35:09 | |
-They keep wanting to flirt with you and... -Really?! | 3:35:09 | 3:35:11 | |
David Cameron called them "loonies, closet racists". | 3:35:11 | 3:35:14 | |
I think the issue... | 3:35:14 | 3:35:16 | |
I think the issues around Europe really concern | 3:35:16 | 3:35:19 | |
far more people than, certainly, the Labour Party realises. | 3:35:19 | 3:35:22 | |
I am not concerned about the rise of UKIP. | 3:35:22 | 3:35:25 | |
Emily Thornberry, you're out of all this, of course, cos you're... | 3:35:25 | 3:35:29 | |
-How long have I got? -You've got about 45 seconds. | 3:35:29 | 3:35:31 | |
OK, in 45 seconds, I'd say, of course they've got to leave the coalition. | 3:35:31 | 3:35:34 | |
They will not be forgiven unless they do. | 3:35:34 | 3:35:36 | |
They've been propping up this Tory government for too long. | 3:35:36 | 3:35:39 | |
Without them, we'd not have had changes to the health service. | 3:35:39 | 3:35:42 | |
Without them, we'd not have had changes to tuition fees | 3:35:42 | 3:35:44 | |
or having these terrible cuts. | 3:35:44 | 3:35:46 | |
APPLAUSE People will never forgive them. | 3:35:46 | 3:35:49 | |
And it's about time they pulled out. People want another government. | 3:35:49 | 3:35:52 | |
We'd like to have an election. | 3:35:52 | 3:35:53 | |
Let's get ourselves a proper government | 3:35:53 | 3:35:55 | |
that will deal with this deficit and debt in a responsible way. | 3:35:55 | 3:35:58 | |
-In a responsible way and get us out of the recession. -Incredible. | 3:35:58 | 3:36:01 | |
-That's what people want. -How? | 3:36:01 | 3:36:03 | |
Thank you, not least for finishing in 45 seconds. You can come back. | 3:36:03 | 3:36:06 | |
Our time is up. Next week we're going to be in Central London, | 3:36:06 | 3:36:09 | |
as America gets ready to elect a new president. | 3:36:09 | 3:36:11 | |
We've got Jerry Springer, the controversial television presenter. | 3:36:11 | 3:36:14 | |
He used to be mayor of Cincinnati for the Democrats. | 3:36:14 | 3:36:17 | |
We've got the former Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, | 3:36:17 | 3:36:20 | |
Ed's brother, | 3:36:20 | 3:36:21 | |
and we have a prominent, but as yet unnamed, | 3:36:21 | 3:36:23 | |
Mitt Romney supporter there with us, to see balance. | 3:36:23 | 3:36:27 | |
So, that's next week. | 3:36:27 | 3:36:28 | |
The week after that, we're going to be in Bexhill, in Sussex. | 3:36:28 | 3:36:31 | |
If you'd like to come to either Central London, or to Bexhill, | 3:36:31 | 3:36:34 | |
just visit our website, the address is on the screen there. | 3:36:34 | 3:36:37 | |
Or call us... | 3:36:37 | 3:36:39 | |
Thanks you for watching. Thanks to our panel. | 3:36:42 | 3:36:44 | |
Thanks to all who came to Slough to take part. | 3:36:44 | 3:36:46 | |
Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night. | 3:36:46 | 3:36:49 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 3:37:11 | 3:37:14 |