Browse content similar to 10/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight we are in Goldsmiths College in Lusa Sobral in South | :00:10. | :00:20. | |
:00:20. | :00:22. | ||
London -- in Lewisham in South Good evening. Of course, a big | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
welcome to our audience in Lewisham. Tonight our panel has on it the | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Energy and Climate Change Secretary, the Liberal Democrat Ed Davey. | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
Labour's former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
The Conservative MP Nadine Dorries, still suspended from the | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :00:47. | ||
Parliamentary party because she went on Am A celebrity, John and | :00:47. | :00:56. | |
the Times column Nis, Camilla Cavendish -- columnist, Camilla | :00:56. | :01:06. | |
:01:06. | :01:09. | ||
Thomas Sturge has the first question of the year. S-the 1% | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
benefits cap fair? Is the 1% benefits cap fair? John Prescott? | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
Certainly not however you measure it. The Government says their | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
policies must be fair. They say they have a difficulty, I | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
understand the point, but if you take 1% of somebody on benefit, | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
let's say job allowance and 1% on the 500 average wage, then clearly | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
the differences are considerable and they are not fair. Leaving out | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
the real problem, if you let millionaires have a cut basically | :01:42. | :01:50. | |
down to 45 from 50% and they get �107,000 back, it maybe 1%, but by | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
God it is not the same of somebody on a benefit on 1%. No, it is not | :01:54. | :02:04. | |
:02:04. | :02:14. | ||
fair and therefore, it is wrong. APPLAUSE | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
Your argument would be there is no discrepancy in agreeing to 1% on | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
public sector workers, but not agreeing 1% for people on benefits? | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
I think we are get nothing a mess about this welfare fronkly and I | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
think -- frankly and I think politicians start thinking about | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
the whole range because all the anomalies that are occurring, and | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
the politicians are getting into the argument about the shirkers and | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
the people who are working and we need to reform the welfare system. | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
When it was set-up in 1947 at least we were dealing with the illnesses, | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
the diseases, the poverty, of unemployment, of disease, that was | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
a fundamental change. Things have changed considerably. And you have | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
got to provide something which will cost you more money and perhaps you | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
have got to ask what is the alternative expenditure, and you | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
are seeing high expenditures going on at the moment and you are trying | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
to force those on welfare to pay the price for the fault that they | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
didn't occur. Looking back on it now, I was a great supporter of of | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
Beverage, the five diseases he wanted to deal with, he did, but it | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
has changed and we need to look at other principles that are going to | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
govern the distribution of wealth and the power and dealing with | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
those at the bottom of the thing that get a better chance than those | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
at the top and that's what is going on at the moment. | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
APPLAUSE Nadine Dorries? Well, can I deal | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
with something that John said in that little ramble? You mentioned | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
the tax rate going down. Yes, we did that, John didn't say when you | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
were in Government, you were in Government for 4,000 days and you | :03:56. | :04:04. | |
only put the tax rate up to 50% in your last 4 days -- 4 days. -- 4 | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
days. Can you answer? It is not a cut, it | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
is a 1% increase that are are being capped. | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Is it fair? I have nurses and policemen in my constituency, | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
policemen who go out on a Saturday night into Luton Town centre and | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
who work in the public sector and had their pay frozen and while | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
their pay was frozen benefits went up by 5.2%, we inherited the worst | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
deficit in 2010 and I am afraid everybody has to bear the brunt of | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
that and bear the cost. 1% cap on increase isn't a cut, it is a cap | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
on the increase. I also think that we need to understand understand | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
that it is not a permanent thing this. Is a temporary thing. | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
don't the pensioners bear the same thing? Not only pensioners, but the | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
disabled and the vulnerable are being protected... Why do you | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
protect the pencors? Because pensioners are vulnerable. | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
Because what? Because pensioners are... What? Why pensioners? Well, | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
we have actually given pensioners an increase. Pensioners have | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
contributed to our economy. 90% of people in this country working | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
people and non working people were eligible for benefits. That means | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
we are taxing people to give them back benefits. That's expensive and | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
it doesn't work. What we need to do is to give those people who really | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
do deserve benefits, better benefits going forward and we need | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
to to simplify the tax system so we are not taking tax from you to give | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
it back to you on benefits. APPLAUSE | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
The woman in green up there. Yes, I am a public sector worker | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
and I am not happy with this argument that is being put forward | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
contrasting the effective cut in public sector salary with a cap on | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
benefit. Why not? Well, I, of course, think | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
it is not right that public sector workers should have their pay cut... | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
Or frozen? It comes to the same thing if you take into account | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
inflation and this is the fourth year, but to use that as a | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
comparison as to why people on benefit should have theirs capped | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
is wrong. It is a wrong comparison. It should be made between the | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
people on benefit who are very poor or even much poorer than people who | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
are working compared to the wealthy people and so I don't appreciate | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
that. APPLAUSE | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
You, sir. The man in the fifth row. Do the panel think it is helpful | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
for politicians to engage in provocative language such as | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
"strivers and shirkers." John Bird? I think it is dodgy for the | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
comfortable to be passing judgement on the discomfortable by making | :07:21. | :07:30. | |
them more uncomfortable. APPLAUSE | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
I think that's a separate issue to the overhaul that we need to give | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
to the welfare system. The welfare system needs to be a system which | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
was invented as a springboard for those people who could use it. It | :07:40. | :07:49. | |
was not invented as a place where we hair house some of the most | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
disenfranchised people in Britain today. Something I tried to give Mr | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Mandelson many years ago when I said to him, "you have to farewell | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
on welfare in order to say farewell to welfare." We have got hundreds | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
of thousands of people who are stuck on welfare. They need to be | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
reformed. They need to be brought into the workforce. They need to be | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
put in colleges and universities. But don't at this moment start | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
giving the poor a kicking specially from some of the of the most | :08:20. | :08:30. | |
:08:30. | :08:34. | ||
comfortable people who have ever run the British Government. | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
APPLAUSE Ed Davey? When the coalition | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
Government came to power we were borrowing �3 billion every single | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
week. So we have had to take tough decisions with cutting spending in | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
a number of Hall departments. We are asking, John, the rich to pay a | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
lot more. Rightly so, they have got the largest shoulders, they should | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
bear the highest burden. That's not the point. We got rid of the | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
capital gains tax dodge that was brought in by Labour. It was an | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
outrageous thing for Labour to do and the rich should be paying more. | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
Last year, I was praud when the Liberal Democrats -- proud when the | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
Liberal Democrats fought within the coalition Government to make sure | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
that benefits did go up by inflation, 5.2% they went up, even | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
though we were asking many workers in the public sector to have a pay | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
freeze. I think it is right and fair that other people do have some | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
of the burden. So it was fair last year, but it is not fair to do that | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
in year? When the financial crisis happened, to when this Welfare | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
Reform Bill is in place, wages will have gone up the same as benefits | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
and I think if everyone is going up the same, everyone is is sharing | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
the burden, that is right. The rich should pay more and that's what is | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
happening. What do you say to John Prescott, | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
that 1% to somebody on a low income is a great deal less than 1% to a | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
person say on �20,000, or or �30,000 a year in the public | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
sector? I understand that. That's why we are increasing the income | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
tax allowance. �600 a year tax cut from this April if you are in work. | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
�1200 if you have got to two in a couple. That is worth a lot more to | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
the low paid. The real point is the message we | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
send to the publish public and that is what we think the poor are | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
responsible for themselves. They are responsible for the causes of | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
their own poverty. If you look at the way in which the Social | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
Security system was created over the years, when Margaret Thatcher | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
closed down all the lame duck industries, they parked up nearly | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
one million workers on Social Security and turned the Social | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
Security system from a contributory system to a non non contributetry | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
system. She should have been turning those miners into | :11:02. | :11:10. | |
industrialists. APPLAUSE | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
I thought you once said you were a Tory? This is so interesting. You | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
get somebody quotes a little bit. I am a working class Marxist Tory | :11:21. | :11:31. | |
:11:31. | :11:32. | ||
with socialist liberal liberal leanings which means to say... | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
APPLAUSE I find it incredibly difficult to | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
fit into the left or the right. Like most people they are left on | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
some things and right on others. Camilla Cavendish? I want to talk | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
about the gentleman who talked about the provocative language. I | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
think agree with you because I think the language of strivers and | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
shirkers are distorting this debate and it is unhelpful and we should | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
stop using it. I also think it disstracts from what we should be | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
looking at at which is the whole welfare Bill. The whole Welfare | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
Bill is too big and it is growing and the more we spend on welfare, | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
the less we can spend on hospitals, the less we can spend on schools | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
and the less we can spend on defence. That's just the reality. | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
Somebody mentioned it earlier, the piece that has not been addressed | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
in this welfare cap is the question of pensions which are, of course, a | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
vast part of this Bill and pensioner benefits. It used to be | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
true that being elderly, pretty much meant you were poor and when | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
we needed to support those people people because it was hard to get | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
through your old age and we have got a different situation. We have | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
got a generation coming into retirement, which is the wealthiest | :12:42. | :12:51. | |
generation of people we have seen. Those Peel are getting winter fuel | :12:51. | :13:00. | |
allowance and benefits. Unless you address that there is an unfairness. | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
There is a propaganda going on that, the fault is the welfare system, | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
namely that it is paying too much. In reality, our welfare system is | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
subsidising low pay with tax credits which we brought in, with | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
low pay so the welfare is taken the heavy -- taking the heavy burden | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
and at the same time it may only have been one year when you did the | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
50 pence, it means that the millionaires, who are getting | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
�107,000 back by the proposals that you make are blaming the welfare | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
system. That's why we need to reform it. That's not true. The | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
rich are paying more in tax than they have at any time in any year | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
under the previous Labour Government. The rich will pay more | :13:47. | :13:54. | |
this year in tax than they did in their 13 years. What you guys did, | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
you allowed the rich and the wealthy to squirrel away their | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
money away from the taxman. Bankers were paying lower tax their their | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
cleaners. That was a scandal that you brought in and we have ended it. | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
What about tax avoidance? The people who are not paying their tax | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
and their businesses are taking money, salting it abroad and not | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
paying their fair share. You are right, you did nothing | :14:17. | :14:27. | |
:14:27. | :14:27. | ||
Give the panel a chance to get their breath back and go to large | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
numbers of people in the audience. If you could make your points, | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
rather than ask more questions, we'll get more of you in. The man | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
in the blue shirt on the right? It's surely inevitable that the | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
result of this policy will be to depress economic activity in poor | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
areas as people have less spending power. That will affect businesses, | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
that will inevitably lead to more job losses, more division in | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
society, possible social unrest and you will see more welloff people | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
wanting to leave those areas and you set off a nasty vicious circle. | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
Thank you, we'll keep that point. The woman in the black-and-white | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
dress? How about Labour bear the brunt of the responsibility. You | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
created a welfare state that threw money at people and left them | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
trapped and now they are suffering. You didn't invest in education, you | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
just threw money... I have a family who work for HMRC, there was a new | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
benefit every couple of months, you threw money at people and now they | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
are so dependent on benefits and the cuts, you know, they are | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
suffering and it was your Government who overcomplicated the | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
welfare state. You sold off our gold bullion, spent money that we | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
didn't have on an illegal war. APPLAUSE. The woman on the left | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
over there? I would like to pick up on Nadine's | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
point which was where she talked about pensioners keeping benefits | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
because they are vulnerable and have contributed to society. A lot | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
of people who are on other benefit who is're out of work have | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
contributed to society as well, we are not all scroungers who've never | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
had a job. A lot of the so-called scroungers have children who're | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
very vulnerable and those people are struggling to feed those | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
children because of the rising costs of food, the rising costs of | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
bills, the rising costs of rent and they're just not able to do that. | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
We have to think about protecting those vulnerable people. Can I | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
just... In a moment. I want a few more points in. Like John Prescott, | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
if you could hold back for the moment. You on the right? Yes. My | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
point is, Britain is a wonderful country to be in, and for many | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
people, the reason they are here is because the benefits system works | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
for them. You can stay at home and make a lot of money and those | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
who're going to work are the ones that pay the price of going out. My | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
children complain. Now, why is it that each time the public talk | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
about their benefit cap or less taxation, they are talking about | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
them. What needs to happen is that the system needs to be overhauled | :17:19. | :17:28. | |
so that we know that to survive - see grease, it's suffering - | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
somehow it sounds ungrateful that people don't see that it's better | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
to make the sacrifice so the changes can happen than staying | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
there as in we don't want the increase. It's not fair on those | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
that are at work and pensioners. OK, they have benefits, but we need to | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
look at reform and let the public understand that Britain needs to | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
survive these hard times. Thank you. | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Now, we have still got a lot of hands up but I want the panel to | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
have a chance to pick up briefly because we have other questions. | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
The points were that business and demand will be affected by cutting | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
benefits, not increasing them, that was the point made up there, Labour | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
trapped people in the welfare state, the point about the pensioners and | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
your point, madam, there. So Ed Davey, briefly? You are quite right, | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
you need to make sure people can get by in work, that's why we are | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
raising the tax allowance, taking two million low-paid out of income | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
tax all together. What Labour did, they used to tax you then give it | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
back to you as if they were giving you a present, you know. What we | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
need to do is take it off them all together. Because we are doing that | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
with income tax, 24 million people got a tax cut in April of �600. | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
That is helping people on low and middle incomes. I'm not getting it | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
because I'm on a high income, I shouldn't get it, people on low and | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
middle incomes should get it. Prescott, the point about Labour | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
having trapped people in the welfare state. You are going back | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
after the war, that's a long time ago when there was mass | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
unemployment, mass disease, education, all that was changed by | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
the welfare state. We've now got to a stage where people are trying to | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
blame it and there's heavy cost put on it so we need to make a | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
fundamental reform in the system. That's what I'm arguing. People say | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
we can do reform cheaper. All the benefits took three quarters of | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
kids out of poverty, Tax Credit, minimum wage, so bear that in mind. | :19:39. | :19:47. | |
But that hasn't solved the problem though. How would you want to see | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
the reform of the welfare state? It's as fundamental as when | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
Beverage started. Let's ask ourselves, do you want a welfare | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
system? Is it to be fair? How will we measure that? Those are the | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
arguments, so let's sit down and argue about that. | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
APPLAUSE Nadine Dorries, can you pick up on | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
the point that was made at the very beginning that the capping of | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
benefits will only reduce demand, make people move out of certain | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
areas, reduce prosperity generally? Obviously I wouldn't agree with | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
that statement and the gentleman also said about declining | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
employment. We have a million new jobs which have been created and | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
240,000 of those were women the work place now have than there were | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
in 2010, a million new jobs. For every job in the public sector | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
which is lost, two jobs are created in the private sector so we are | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
creating jobs, unemployment is falling. We have the lowest rate of | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
youth unemployment in ten years, unemployment is falling - I'm | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
afraid that's a fact. That's not true. It is because that's what the | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
figures say, John. Tory propaganda. I'm sorry, it isn't, John. The lady | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
who made the point about the pensioner benefits, I was talking | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
about the basic state pension which I believe should be increased. That | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
was the right thing to do. What I do question though, and I think you | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
probably agree with me, is that we have some wealthy pensioners now | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
who are, the winter fuel allowance I think should go to those | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
pensioners who really need it, not to those who are wealthy, but I | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
have heard some figures banded around which I don't agree with. I | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
heard one the other day which said that pensioners who are on a joint | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
pension of �25,000 a year shouldn't get the winter fuel allowance. I | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
think that's on the edge of a limit really because I think that's not | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
what I would call wealthy. I would call that people just about | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
surviving. Thank you very much. Camilla Cavendish, do you want to | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
pick up on any of the points made? John, I love your idea that we can | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
now sit down and discuss what's fair now. I don't think we can do | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
that if you won't even accept that actually the welfare bill is too | :22:03. | :22:12. | |
large and that in fact people, wages aren't better on benefits. | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
He's saying prove it. There is more money in this country to spend than | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
at any time. The lady has a good point to make. If you go to the | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
Department of Work and Pensions, there were 32 new benefits. Every | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
time they introduced a new benefit, there was a new computer system and | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
the system didn't work. There was an opportunity to streamline the | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
system, focus it and make work pay and you didn't do it. You don't | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
want to go over old ground but it's difficult to have that conversation | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
now when so many middle class people have got child benefit, baby | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
bonds, all the things that Labour handed out, now they don't want to | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
give them back and that makes it really difficult to have this | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
conversation. Every Government finds it difficult | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
to govern and it's very, very difficult to govern the welfare | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
system. One of the real things is, every Government's increased the | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
size. This Government has just run out of money and it's not going to | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
increase the size. One thing the Labour Government did and I think | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
with some faults in a sense, that is the laws of unintended | :23:25. | :23:32. | |
consequence - when they gave a lot of support to people in work they | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
supported people in cheap jobs and the people who did well out of it | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
were the shareholders. I think that is one of the unintended laws and | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
consequences that we need to be very careful about. Whef we change | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
something as big as the welfare state, still one to have most | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
beautiful social creation of the 20th century, it has to be | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
perfected. But its supporters have to reform it, we have to reform it. | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
If we don't reform it, we leave it to its enemies and they'll make a | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
pig's ear of it. APPLAUSE | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
Now we must move on. You can join in the debate from home by texting | :24:18. | :24:26. | |
or Twitter. The panellist tonight is a person from blog conspiracy | :24:26. | :24:33. | |
and he's at the BBC extra text account. You can press red to see | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
what others are saying. Let's change the topic and take a | :24:37. | :24:44. | |
question from Karl Timberlake? politicians who court celebrity | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
debase the honour of their own profession? | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
APPLAUSE Well, I can't imagine who you are | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
thinking of! Maybe the cap fits to all three politicians, I don't know. | :25:01. | :25:08. | |
But, Camilla Cavendish, you start on this? Well, I have to admire | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
Nadine, whom I assume your question is directed, for going out... | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
necessarily you say. Prescott is it?! Cagey about it now? The cap | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
fits and they've been doing some advertising, maybe. The question | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
was, do politicians who court celebrity debase the honour? I have | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
to admire Nadine for going to the jungle. I wouldn't have had the | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
courage to do it but I would also say if I was an MP I don't think I | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
would have done it because I don't think it was really the right thing | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
to do. I know you have got a great line on it and you will defend it, | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
but I just feel, as a woman, people are so cynical about politics and | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
particularly women in politics. I think a lot of women MPs feel that | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
they are seen as shallow or they're self-interested and I suppose | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
that's maybe why I feel I wouldn't have done that. You would have felt | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
uncomfortable. Right. Ed Davey? a certain extent we are all in the | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
public eye and we are all wanting people to see us and hear from us. | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
What do you think about this publicity? Focus leaflets in my | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
constituencies and things like that. Your junior minister courts more | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
publicity than you do. Seriously, what I want to do is answer the | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
question and the point is, I think an MPs job is to represent their | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
constituents. I do two advice surgeries almost every week so | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
people come and see me face-to-face with their problems, whether it's | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
benefits. Was she right to do that from the jungle? She could haven't | :26:40. | :26:47. | |
done it from the jungle. I saw her eating sheep testicles, it made my | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
stomach children. That's not the thing people elect their MPs to do. | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
They should be campaigning hard for them, being there to represent them. | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
Nadine will say 16 million people watch that programme, fewer than | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
watch this programme, but the point is, what should an MP be doing? | :27:05. | :27:14. | |
It's in their constituency and it's in Parliament. | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
APPLAUSE Was the Conservative Party right to punish her by removing the | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
whip? That's a matter for the Conservatives. Of course it is! | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
What is your view?! APPLAUSE | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
Well, if a Liberal Democrat... APPLAUSE | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
If a Liberal Democrat MP would have done that, the whip would have been | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
withdrawn. Nadine Dorries, in your own defence? Parliament was | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
actually on holiday for nine of the 12 days I was in the jungle if you | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
include the weekends either side. I worked through the summer recess | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
because I was going and didn't take any holiday, only had four days' | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
holiday in the wheel year because I knew I was doing this. We had a | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
very in-depth meeting about this that I would be the first out. How | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
did we know that? We looked at the fan base of everybody taking part. | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
The small Estefan club was Ashley Roberts of 239,000 fans in the UK. | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
I don't have a fan club, believe it or not, so we just knew that I | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
would be first out. Someone shouted "Not surprised" from the back. | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
may say so. And we knew exactly what we were doing. I missed no | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
legislation whatsoever and I missed no votes. Despite what the press | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
may have told you, I was away for 12 days, of which Parliament | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
weren't sitting in nine. Even you weren't in Parliament when I was in | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
the jungle. It was the right thing to do, and I'll tell you why. Most | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
people when they look at or speak to politicians and I know this | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
because I used to feel like this as well, I used to think, whatever, | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
you know, less than 20% of people went out and voted recently in the | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
PCC elections. The people are engaging in politics and with | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
politicians and they're dropping like a stone in terms of numbers. | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
People are losing interest. The only way politicians are presented, | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
usually to people, is via the printed media. I think it's one | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
million people watch this out of 65 million people. I beg your pardon. | :29:20. | :29:28. | |
How many people watch this? million? It's nothing like... | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
be honest, 2.5 million to 3 million people. I thought you would have | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
done your in-depth research before you came on. It's my fifth time, | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
I've forgot! It's a very select number of people who're interested | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
in politics, they watch this programme, not the people who | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
aren't interested. I did think long and hard about it. I'll tell you | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
what happens to me now when I go into my constituency. The teenagers | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
really want to talk to me. The teenagers want to know what's going | :29:56. | :30:06. | |
:30:06. | :30:08. | ||
They say are you Nadine Dorries, are you the MP? I like the fact | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
that they say, "Are you the MP?" They ask me a a lot of questions | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
and they usually are about I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!. | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
When they put a cross next to my name and they will know who they | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
are voting for and I think that's important because quite often they | :30:25. | :30:33. | |
don't. I notice the Labour Party have gone on to Dancing On Ice, he | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
is paid and -- she is paid and I hope she does well because I would | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
like to see politicians doing different things in a different | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
form mat, finding out what they are like other than on the green | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
benches or on Forums like this because there are a lot of people | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
who don't watch this programme or read the newspapers that we engage | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
with. You, sir, on the front row? Now to | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
the not think there is a worry if you go on the public television | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
programmes how the media portray you? That's an interesting point | :31:06. | :31:14. | |
actually. And the man up there, you sir? Sympathetic as I am to your | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
dedication to your job and the fact that you did move your holiday and | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
I am sure you did work very hard over that summer holiday. Do you | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
genuinely think that you did good for your constituency in that time | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
in the jungle? I can only tell you the reaction of my constituents. | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
You have And that's the important thing to know which has been | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
tremendous. They know you as a celebrity on | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
television. They don't know more about your policies as a result, | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
they are not asking you about your policies. How was it meeting those | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
other celebrities? They are and in fact... The man in the white shirt | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
there. Diyou really believe that ITV would let you harp on in the | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
jungle about your anti-abortion views and other right-wing views? | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
No, I did not say they would either. John Bird? I have never said that I | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
thought that is what I thought would happen. It is entertainment. | :32:16. | :32:24. | |
It is a watershed moment when we realise that we need a different | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
kind of of politics, we need our representatives, but it does shout | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
out to the world in general that we need to change the kind of people | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
who go into politics. I would like some firemen, I would like some | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
nurses, I would like some people who had real experience and not | :32:47. | :32:54. | |
just in publicity. The other thing I would like more participatory | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
democracy, rather than representational democracy, which | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
means that you lot have to join with people like me and try to do | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
something profound about making our communities work and making our | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
society work. And the problem is that we are all looking at | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Parliament to answer so many problems and they are not answering | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
them. The answer lies with us in the same way around poverty, the | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
answer lies with the poor. What about Nadine Dorries and the | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
jungle? Briefly. I am a nurse. I was a nurse. | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
I am glad you are a nurse. I thought you were a fireman! | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
But the point is, I didn't know this lady, I don't watch that | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
programme. When they asked me on, I was going to jump at the chance | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
because I wanted to be up there saying Big Issue, Big Issue, but | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
they changed their mind. If the lady feels she can prove that she | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
is helping her constituents better than a lot of MPs help their | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
constituents, great, but I would agree with the guy over here and | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
the guy there that you have probably handed the argument over | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
to the media and the media are not that interested in the real, deep, | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
local politics. Yes? Well, Nadine mentioned low | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
voter turnout is a reason for thinking the jungle was a good idea. | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
Do you not think that one of the reasons that the public are losing | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
faith in politicians is the disturbing similarities in the | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
mechanics in politics and the mechanics of celebrity and the | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
focus on spin and PR which is one of the main reasons why people | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
don't trust politicians anymore? APPLAUSE | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
John Prescott, you have attracted publicity in your time? I think you | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
should go, John. Have you ever court it had? I was | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
invited to do this programme and so was my wife. | :34:51. | :34:59. | |
To go into the jungle p I didn't want to to do it because there | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
wasn't any en-suite facilities. If the people don't like it, they vote | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
them out. Nadine made that decision, I wouldn't have made that decision. | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
I remember living in a council house, I think it was in Liverpool, | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
looking at the difficulties people had living on that income. Now each | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
can make a decision, but we get invited into situations that almost | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
become celebrities. I didn't choose to be a celebrity, when a fella hit | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
me with an egg and I disagreed, but I was turned almost as a celebrity, | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
I went on Mr and Mrs with the wife for �30,000 for charity. And that | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
was an opportunities because the media wants to have celebrities. | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
There is a chance you could get �30,000 for a charity and it seemed | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
worth doing and they see the other side of you. I am a serious | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
politician who has done lots of of things for changes, I have never | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
done a job anywhere else, I have done that. But in the process, the | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
press and the media will turn you into some of the things you do into | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
a celebrity and you have to live with that, but as long as you can | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
use that power sometimes, bringing home to people you have known and | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
acting in the good, well it is the safety at sea. | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
So you are on her side? I think she is entitled to make that judgement | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
and if the constituents don't like it, they have a chance to put her | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
out. Why Why didn't you go into the | :36:26. | :36:36. | |
:36:36. | :36:42. | ||
jungle? Did you see Galloway? APPLAUSE That wasn't the jungle. | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
but I bet he would have preferred to have been in the jungle than | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
drinking the milk out of that woman's hands. | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
The woman there? Does the panel agree that the best way to get the | :36:56. | :37:04. | |
public's attention is to eat testicles out of a bikini? Well, I | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
guess they always say you get the politician you deserve. If it has | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
made us more interested, that's the answer. I don't think it has made | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
people more interested in politics and that's why it was a mistake to | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
have done it. Kate Hennessy? David Cameron | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
claimed that the NHS was safe in his hands. Given the cuts and | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
closures around the country, is this still the case? David Cameron | :37:34. | :37:44. | |
:37:44. | :37:44. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 110 seconds | :37:44. | :39:34. | |
claims the NHS was safe in his In. So they can put their voice to | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
him. They can represent their people and we will have to await | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
his decision. The A&E here is being closed | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
because of a merger because the neighbouring lot went bust and were | :39:47. | :39:56. | |
taken over. I want to draw you to the UK | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
Statistics Authority. The UK Statistics Authority says in 2011, | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
2012, the expenditure is less than it was before. The expenditure is | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
going down. True or false? Well, when we set the Spending Review, we | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
were saying that NHS expenditure would be kept at the right level. | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
Under the Labour proposal... Were you right? They were going up. | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
Under the Labour proposals, they were going to cut NHS spending. | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
Hold on. The spokesman for Labour at the moment has said that they | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
would cut health spending. Let's talk about your Central | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
Government. The statistics show that spend something lower. Well, I | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
haven't seen that report. What I have seen is the spending plans | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
that we set out in 2010 and they show that over this Parliament, | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
spending on the health will continue to go up. John Prescott? | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
Well, does it mean that what the statistics people are saying in | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
real terms you are spending less? You might say it is to do with the | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
debt and blame everybody else for that, but that is happening and he | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
said it would not happen. It is another promise... And why are you | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
proposing to cut it? I don't know the quote that you have got. He is | :41:10. | :41:19. | |
asking you what doested statistical body say? They say it is in fact | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
reduced. I have been saying that the spending plans... I know what | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
you are saying, what about the cuts? I have seen some of the of | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
the health reforms that are really difficult that that we have put, we | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
are putting power gh power in the hands of local GPs. Under Labour | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
all the decisions were made centrally. They didn't take account | :41:44. | :41:52. | |
of what what what was happening in local communities. I have to say | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
John, our reforms, yes, they are difficult, but we are trying to | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
make sure that local people have a voice and I hope they have a voice | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
here in Lewisham. The woman in the front row? That | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
really isn't true, the views of the people in Lewisham, the views of | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
the GPs in Lewisham have been ignored by Kershaw. | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
Who is the man in charge of the man in charge of the Trust? He is the | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
Trust administrator. And the plan for Lewisham Hospital was hidden | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
away in an annex to an appendix in the draft report. It was not in the | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
con consultation document and when I looked at the plan, every single | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
entrance to the hospital was going to be sold off and our brand-new | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
A&E, maternity care and urgent care centre were going to be part of the | :42:43. | :42:53. | |
:42:53. | :43:01. | ||
land that would be sold off. APPLAUSE | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
There is a problem here because you have a particular issue here in | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
Lewisham as other parts of the country do. The question was a more | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
general question and Nadine Dorries perhaps you would like to answer | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
that which Tories claimed the NHS was safe in their hands. The | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
statistics show spending is not keeping up with the real cost of | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
the NHS. Do you still argue that it is safe in Tory hands? I I do and | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
there is a commit m to increase db -- commitment to increase real-time | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
spending. Can you say that again? There is a | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
commitment to continue increased spending in the NHS. There is a | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
commitment to that. But spending or spending in real | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
terms? Spending in real terms. So why is the statisticsical | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
authority saying that has not happened? I have not heard of them. | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
Andrew Dilnot, he is a well respected figure, you know Dilnot, | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
he said it. I don't take my information from Dilnot. | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
You take it from Cameron then? Well, he is wrong. | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
Well, what I do know and I have looked at it today and I have | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
spoken to the protesters about what is happening in this situation. I | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
know that the South London Trust has two hospitals in it which in | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
1998 were sat up on a PFI agree which means one hospital pays �36 | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
million and another �35 million a year in interest rate payments. How | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
Gordon Brown and Ed Balls thought that a hospital would exist with | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
that level of debt and unfortunately, Lewisham which was | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
set upon a better system, it performs well and it is a good | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
hospital, has been looked at by Kershaw to come in and Lewisham is | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
coming in to save the bad bad financial financial arrangements | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
that were set-up for the other two hospitals. | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
How is that fair? I trained as a nurse in a hospital that is very | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
much like Lewisham, I have one in my constituency, were people are | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
born, they have their babies, they die, they have their major | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
illnesses, it is a hospital that people care about because it is | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
such a part of the community and the reason why that hospital is | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
under threat now is because what Gordon Brown and Ed Balls set up | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
for the other two hospitals in the past and that is shame on the | :45:25. | :45:34. | |
previous Labour Government. I hope it is saved and and Jeremy Hunt | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
made no decision yet. The decision will be made in the future. He is | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
going to look at it. I do know this, I know there is a xaint there is -- | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
xaint. I spoke to the protesters and they said what you have said, | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
about clinicians, local people and patients, nursing staff, they were | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
not listened to. I tomorrow, will speak to to Jeremy Hunt and take | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
those message back to Jeremy, because if my party is about | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
anything, it professes to be about localism and if it is about | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
localism then it will take those people's opinions into account. | :46:09. | :46:19. | |
:46:19. | :46:23. | ||
Will you go with her tomorrow? Actually, tomorrow I'm in my | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
constituency. Simon Hughes has put in a submission to the | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
administrator and Liberal Democrats locally are campaigning on it and I | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
know the local MPs, because Jeremy Hunt said they'll meet him and | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
that's how it should be. Back to Kate Hennessey's question, which | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
was the NHS Scaife in David Cameron's hands. A lot of people | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
don't feel that because of this issue. But back to the point. You, | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
Sir, on the left? The coalition Government broke its pledge not to | :46:51. | :46:58. | |
introduce any top down change by introducing the biggest top down | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
social care and health bill. It's the biggest introduced by this | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
coalition Government. Do you feel that because you work in the NHS or | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
are a patient? I work in the NHS. You work in it? Yes. As what? | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
doctor. And the coalition is pushing on more than �20 billion | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
worth of savings over the next three years and the NHS Bill, total | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
funding is about �85 billion, giving an idea of some perspective | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
about it. A Scaife hospital locally is about to close, now make a | :47:30. | :47:40. | |
:47:40. | :47:46. | ||
judgment, is the NHS Scaife with this coalition Government? | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
APPLAUSE I was very disappointed, as you were, that the Health Bill | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
last year focused so exclusively on structures and moving the chess | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
pieces around for something that is quite expensive is sucking up a lot | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
of money and a lot of energy at a time when the service needs to save | :48:04. | :48:11. | |
money. I was also disaed that because it was so focused on | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
structures it wasn't focused on the vital issue for patients which is | :48:16. | :48:23. | |
nursing care. People were having to drink water from vases. Those are | :48:23. | :48:32. | |
extreme examples but there are actually too many of those examples. | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
There was some fundamental failures in the NHS. If you come back to | :48:37. | :48:44. | |
Lewisham. That's what's happened in the South London care trust. They | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
haven't been able to manage things. I had a couple of calls from | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
doctors because they knew I was coming on the programme, and it's | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
very clear to me that it's not sustainable that they are spending | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
�70 million a year propping up one hospital, you are taking that from | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
another hospital to prop it up so it's not free money and you have | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
got to stop and put better management in. | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
I thought, sometimes you have to close things. We can't all live in | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
a world when we pretend every single thing has to open and there | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
are some A&Es that will have to close. This area, it seems very | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
surprising to me that after a very rushed consultation, they're saying | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
they want to close Lewisham A&E and move people what, five miles down | :49:33. | :49:41. | |
to Woolwich, quite a long way. They are actually in a way, all that's | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
doing is rewarding the bad management. | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
APPLAUSE Lewisham Hospital is a solvent | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
hospital, giving perfectly good care. A lot of people care about it. | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
There is apparently a proposal which I think Jeremy Hunt should | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
look at which is Lewisham Trust said it's happy to go in and take | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
over Woolwich and try and apply better management to it. That's a | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
way out of this problem and Jeremy Hunt should give that a try. | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
APPLAUSE John Bird? Well, I was speaking to | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
people outside and one of them suggested to me, and I hope it's | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
not true, that there's a bit of gerrymandering going on here, that | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
what you have got is Lewisham because it's largely probably a | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
leftish or working class area is hit while the other areas which are | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
more likely to vote Conservative are going to be left with their | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
hospitals. That's not true. APPLAUSE | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
That may be a scurryless piece of information which I've now passed | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
on to you. I think as a person who's used the hospital system on | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
and off for many years, with many broken toes and noses, I can tell | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
you that probably since the mid 80s, the National Health Service has | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
been in a permanent state of rebuilding, renaming, rethis, | :51:11. | :51:19. | |
rethat. I think we must try and find a way of stopping this | :51:19. | :51:28. | |
permanent state of repainting, problems that we are facing. I also | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
want to ask the leading question, which I think all of us who're | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
concerned about health should ask, why is it that the National Health | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
Service, which was started as a National Health Service, which was | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
more about self-health so people would make themselves healthy, why | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
is it that only 1% of the budget of the National Health Service is | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
spent on prevention? We know that prevention is much better than cure. | :51:54. | :52:04. | |
:52:04. | :52:07. | ||
OK. I see from the clock we only have a few minutes left. You are | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
looking very keen to come in. Very quick, if you promise? Thank you. I | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
don't think the NHS is Scaife at all in David Cameron's hands | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
because he has actually quite blatantly lied. Nadine, if you are | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
going to see Jeremy Hunt tomorrow, would you take some of us with you | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
because we are trying to get a meeting with him and he doesn't | :52:27. | :52:35. | |
want to talk to us because he thinks this is a sham. You can meet | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
her after the programme. I want to get to one other topic before we | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
end tonight. Damon Briggs? Should David Cameron take notice of the US | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
warning not to leave the European Union? Should David Cameron take | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
notice? A shot has been fired across his bow by saying America is | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
against any decision on that. The Irish Prime Minister said exactly | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
the same, it would be a disaster if we left the European Union. Germany | :53:02. | :53:12. | |
pitched in today saying you can't black other states, it's neither | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
wise nor advisable to open the box -- blackmail. We think the Prime | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
Minister will make a speech on this, it's very much on the agenda. | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
Should the Government take notice of what the Americans are saying? | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
Ed Davey? Yes, when our closest allie, the United States, and the | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
Irish and Germans, but not just that, British business people, are | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
saying that we must be careful, David Cameron must be very careful, | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
we don't want to sleep walk out of the European Union, they are saying | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
it for a very good reason. First of all, they are saying it because | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
they know it's in Britain's economic interests to be in the | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
European Union. Jobs are what's critical. We need jobs and trade | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
for the European Union. Are you saying David Cameron's got it | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
wrong? We haven't heard the speech yet, but what I do think is, if you | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
listen to what the Americans are... Referendums? What the Americans are | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
saying is that we have got greater influence if we are in the European | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
Union. I think that's what Beijing probably thinks, I think New Delhi | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
and the world thinks that the UK has more influence and is stronger | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
and more secure if it's in the European Union. Let me give you one | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
other example about why I think Britain should stay in the European | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
Union. The cooperation that we are having now with European colleagues | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
on tackling crime is not talked about but it's really significant. | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
This country's threatened by international crime, Mafia, | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
organised crime, human trafficking, drugs. You have to be in the EU to | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
control crime? No, seriously, it helps us... I'm not saying you are | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
not being serious, but is it relevant? Very. Until we have the | :54:51. | :54:57. | |
European arrest warrant, rapists and murderers are going to Spain | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
and escaping the law. The European Union brought in the arrest warrant | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
and those wicked people are serving time behind bars, that's the sort | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
of thing we can get by staying in the European Union. That's not the | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
point that was being made by the US or the Irish or Germans. We only | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
have a couple of minutes left, I'm afraid. Can I disagree with Ed very | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
briefly? Yes, that would be great. Ed's portraiting the US message as | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
a sign of our weakness really. I think it's a sign of our strength. | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
We are the fifth largest economy many the world. We are the only | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
country in the European Union which has a really functioning mill Tyre. | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
-- military. When America wants to go into war, whether you agree with | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
that or not, it doesn't pick up the phone to Brussels, but London. It | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
wants us in the European Union because we are strong and I think | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
there's too much defeatism about this issue. We can, if we negotiate | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
properly, negotiate some of those powers back. I don't want to go | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
into the drug laundering or the crime, but there are powers that we | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
need to take back. We don't want to be run by Europe. The working time | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
directive... I said we had a couple of minutes... Let's not be | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
defeatist. Let's not be defeatist about what the Government is | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
intending to do by negotiation. It's about our strength. John Bird, | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
briefly, if you would? Briefly, I think the problem with Europe is | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
that nobody has really educated us correctly as to what is actually | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
happening, what are our advantages or disadvantages? There are many | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
disadvantages. The greatest disadvantage for me is when I hear | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
some of those plans that come out of Strasbourg and the other places | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
where you actually think there is another Government telling us what | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
to do which we would don't that way, we'd do it totally different. There | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
are too little understandings of the pluses and minuses. I would | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
like a referendum. I would like one based on the fact that it was done | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
because we had the cognitive ability to understand what were the | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
pluses or minuses on should we stay in or should we go out. | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
APPLAUSE John Prescott, faced with the | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
warnings from America, Germany and Ireland, what is your reaction? | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
Just to say, I led a campaign against going into the Common | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
Market, we had a referendum and we lost. They don't come easy that way. | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
These are global problems and we need probably solutions. | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
Environment and Kyotos are examples of that. You have to negotiate with | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
these, Ed. Europe is an important card. Don't lose sight of America. | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
America looks to its own interests, not ours. They like our acceptable | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
face in Europe, but what they do, if you look at the climate change, | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
they refused internationally and still do, to join up to a global | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
solution because that is in their interests. You are saying ignore | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
the advice coming from America? Listen to it but don't forget that | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
the Americans are looking after their interests, not our interests | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
and sometimes we are the acceptable face. | :58:13. | :58:21. | |
Nadine, very briefly? We spend �53 million a day from the UK into | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
Europe. One day of that should save Lewisham Hospital. I would like not | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
to send that money to Europe every day and I think the Americans | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
should look after America's businesses and we should look after | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
our own thank you very much. Thank you. Well, we must stop. | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
We'll come back to that topic no doubt next week and maybe the week | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
after. We are in Lincoln next week and the week after that we'll be in | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
Weymouth. Join us, by amaying on the website -- applying on the | :58:52. | :58:55. |