17/01/2013 Question Time

Tonight we are in the Cathedral city of Lincoln, and welcome to

Question Time. Good evening to you at home. Welcome to our audience

here, and to our panel, the Conservative Party chairman, Grant

Shapps, Labour's shadow Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Caroline

Flint, the leader of the UK Independence Party, Nigel Farage,

the chairman of the pro-EU lobby group, Business for New Europe,

Roland Rudd, and the Professor Of classics at Cambridge University,

Mary Beard. APPLAUSE

Thank you. Our first question, from Andy Pearson, please. Lincoln has

seen JJB, Sony, Jessops and now HMV fall victim. Soon everything will

be boarded up. Is the Internet killing the high street?

All these shops going, everything will be board up. Is the the

internet killing the high street. Caroline Flint? There is no doubt

that buying online has transformed the way people shop. If I look at

my three children the way they shop is very different from the way die

still, and the way my family and grandparents did. One of the issues

raised this week is firstly how shops like HMV, Blockbuster as we

heard about today, and Jessops, have managed to deal with the

challenge of the internet. The other side of it is, is it a fair

situation where it does seem that those on our high street have to

meet certain requirements that the online shopping services don't? I

think we have to recognise people want to shop in a different way but

we do have to look at whether there should be a fairer way to get a

better level playing field. There are issues I understand about for

example the way free postage can be provided. Certain taxations aren't

as heavy on the online services. And also don't forget at this

present time with VAT that's hitting the retail side of things

as well. So it is that rather than recession that's the problem?

think it is a number of things. Recession is playing its part. We

did ask for a reduction on VAT, because we thought it would help

shops on the high streets. But there are other aspects, the way we

shop today than in the past and how businesses keep up to date and keep

maybe shop front and online services. But there is also a

concern with Amazon and other organisations about whether they

are paying their fair share of tax. That's worth looking at as well.

Grant Shapps? I used to be the Shops Minister. We asked Mary

Portas to do a review. I accepted 27 of her 28 recommendations. On

the high street it's a real battle, as Caroline said. You are up

against the online world. We are all using online. When I looked at

HMV and Blockbuster, they are in parts of the market where people

can download rather than visit the shop. There were 20.5 million

albums downloaded last year, a quarter up on the year before. How

can any business like HMV survive? The high street has to change and

is changing. She Sid weren't acting quickly enough and wondered whether

the whole thing was a PR stunt. know she's been pleased to hear

that we've adopted almost everything that she suggested.

in the last few months? Well, we've got lots. I want to make a wider

point. This is about HMV, blockbuster, Play, Comet. The

interesting thing is you might be guided to think that therefore all

the companies are closing down. Actually one of the interesting

things is the more, there were more new companies formed last year,

450,000 of them. It is not a one- day street. A lot of people shop

online but it comes down to investment. If you go to any high

street in the UK - I'm from Grimsby - it is gloomy, boarded up. Why

would you want to go there and spend your money when it is easier

to do it at home. Going to the high street these days isn't a pleasant

experience. Does it matter? Absolutely. A lot of times you go

there and because of no investment it is downtrodden. I think petrol

prices and parking in the high street has a part to play. I think

very carefully when I go down the high street now, because it

involves, especially in rural Lincolnshire, maybe a 20 mile drive

to Lincoln. That is petrol and it is very experience to have park.

you shop online? I do, yes. Roland Rudd? Well, I think there's a role

for a shop like HMV. One of the things that I hope comes out of the

administration is a new HMV, a smaller... When you say

administration you mean going bankrupt? Exactly. I think there's

a role for it, because I think people too want to borrows and

choose, as well as online. The problem for HMV, I can remember

when it went from records to CDs and they were hauled in front of

the Select Committee for charging too much and they were getting too

many profits. So it has gone from an extraordinary success story to a

terrible disaster economically. The problem is it wasn't well managed

and unfortunately it has suffered from that. But I do think there's a

role for it and it is important for the high street. We can't just rely

on things online. Is it coinsen dental, Jessops, HMV, are you

saying they were all badly managed and got their comeuppance?

About 200 of these companies have gone bust, which is serious and is

worrying, but unfortunately they do have to adapt and change to

consumer needs. I think the problem with HMV, too many people can tell

you they went into HMV stores and they didn't get what they wanted

quick enough. If you can get a slimmer and more efficient HMV, it

can work. I think this issue predates the internet, because in

my working rural community development about five or ten years

ago we were talking about out of town shopping centres killing off

the high street. And large retailers like Tesco and Morrisons

expanding their offer and pretending to be the retail for the

high street when in fact they are not, and having a lot of impact on

producers because they can drive prices down and the amount of goods

that they can buy. APPLAUSE sair. It is unfortunate that HMV

have gone bust but haven't they shown a lot of contempt for their

customers, they were selling gift vouchers to the day until they went

bust and now they are invalid? Mary Beard? I suppose if they are

broke they are not allowed to sell them. You get more protection if

you shop online. I think the high street is dead important but I

don't share the sentiment about HMV that some people do. If you go back

to the '70s, remember what it was like buying a record, you had to

queue up for a booth and listen to it, and you had to wait for ages

and then ages to pay. It wasn't a great retail experience. More

seriously, I think that online shopping is not quite the panacea

that we all think. This Christmas I was really fed up with what I

remembered from last Christmas, which was all these things which

said, "Your parcel should arrive in three days and here notice

tracking." By the time I got it it was January 7th. So I rediscovered

shopping this Christmas. I went to a real shop. I touched the stuff. I

picked it up and I took it home with me. I thought there's life in

this yet. Actually, online has its place but shops are nice. APPLAUSE

Don't give up. Nigel Farage? think the answer is the internet is

partially killing the high street, but there are two factors. One is

the supermarket. We used to by groceries, horse burgers, that sort

of thing. LAUGHTER But you go into these big supermarkets now and you

look for example at the range of children's clothes and the price of

children's clothes. They are so cheap, they are astonishing. Most

responsible mothers and fathers will now go and buy clothes there

because they are saving a also of money. The second big phenomenon

and change is this massive growth of out of town shopping centres. I

live 20 minutes away from in Kent the Bluewater Shopping Centre. It

is absolutely huge. Every major retail they are exists there. I

prefer the high street. I like to meet people and walk down the high

street. That's because you're doing politics. Well, I don't always wear

a rosette doing it. Well, maybe I do. You wouldn't buy a bra online.

I have never bought a bra. You have my word on that! But if you are

going shopping, and go back to perhaps the mum with a couple of

kids. You go to the high street, finding a parking space is

difficult. Then they charge you an outrages sum to park. Go to blue

water, 10,000 places, it is safe and secure and free. You don't have

to wear an umbrella. Your children, they can walk around, because you

don't have passing traffic and cyclists and aggressive pedestrians.

I can understand why people have opted for the out of town centre. I

don't want to be too pessimistic, but we understand there are 140

major retailers in very serious trouble. I'm afraid like it or not

there is going to be much more retrenchment on the high street.

The woman there with blonde hair. wonder what the panel think about

the fact that companies like Amazon can be global and pay tax wherever.

We've got to address the situation in city centres. I think that there

could be a way we could finance things through direct and indirect

taxation through internet. could even the balance between the

high street. Grant Shapps, is that feasible? There are things we could

do. Are you planning to do anything? One of the things we have

done is try to spread the increase in costs of business rates, which

have only in whiched for many years at the rate of inflation, but allow

them to be spread over a period of time. The high streets survive when

they are fun and interesting places to go. You can't have your her cut

online. They need to reinvent themselves. You can join in this

debate either by texting us or through Twitter.

We have a special panellist tonight on Twitter, Guido faux. A question

from Joanna Benton, please. public services cope with yet

another influx of migrants when we open our doors to Bulgaria and

Romania this time next year? This part of England has had a very

large influx of immigrants to work in agriculture primarily. Can the

public services cope with yet another influx Ben Bulgaria and

Romania are entitled to come here next year? Nigel Farage. Not really

no, and nor should they have to. I think it is completely

irresponsible, wrong. In fact damn stupid, to be opening up our doors

next January to 29 million people from Romania and Bulgaria. Just

bear in mind that nearly 50% of the Bulgarian population are living on

or below the poverty line. This is a real poverty line. People are

actually struggling to eat. To give you some idea of how poor it is,

the average monthly salary in Bulgaria is 200 euros a month. A

pensioner gets 100 euros a month. It's a country I'm afraid in a

terrible state. The judiciary is not independent. The Mafia

basically runs the economy. If I was a Bulgarian I would be packing

my bags now wanting to come to Britain. I feel sorry for the

people in Bulgaria, but frankly, as the recent census figures showed,

I've been saying that 3 million had come in in the last ten years, I

was wrong. Officially the figure was 4 million. If you add the

illegals, possibly 5 million. And at a time when we have youth

unemployment in Britain already running it's a 21%, we do not need

more oversupply... You can't do anything to prevent people coming

can you? Frankly David that's why we need a referendum very quickly

on our membership of the European We cannot control immigration

policy into this country and be a member of the EU. I wish everybody

in Bulgaria and Romania well, but it's a National Health Service,

it's not there frankly for the rest of the world.

APPLAUSE Grant Shapps? One thing we have done in this case is to extend

the controls so people couldn't come here right at the minute that

the rules changed. There was a group of eight countries that

joined and there was a big movement of people. That mean this is

particular releasing people able to come here now comes at the same

time as they can go to places like Belgium, France and Germany and

other countries, so it means they won't just necessarily come to this

country on their own. We've got to think this through. One thing I did

when I was Housing Minister was to introduce control force local

authorities to be able to say, people need to have local residency

before they can jump to the top of the housing queues. An example of

how to protect some Public Services, and that's now in place and there

are others, but I do say to people who take the view that we shouldn't

have movement of any people at all, that's fine, we probably have a

couple of million people who we'll have to call back from Spain who've

gone and lived in Spain because the freedom of movement works in both

directions. That is not the point at all. You have made your point.

There are other people on the panel and I would like to hear from them.

How many people are going to come Eric Pickles says he doesn't

believe the firs he's got yet. Does the Government have any idea?

problem this Government's very aware of is that the official

predictions made before Poland and other countries that joined turned

out to be wrong by a power of ten. The different this time is there's

a lot more country who is are opening up at the same time so

there are a lot more choices and people may well go to countries

where there are historic connections which may be places

like Germany, Belgium and others. This is where you are... This, by

the way, was a negotiation that took place... Even if you went from

what Nigel Farage says he wants which is the today change this, we

can't change where we are. Joanna Benton's question was, can the

services cope? My concern when I was in charge of social housing,

for example, was concern that we couldn't cope, which is why I

changed the rules there to enforce some kind of ability for local

authorities to say if you have been in the area for long enough, that

you have work and cone tributed to the area, that's one thing. If you

have just arrived here, you won't be on the top of the list for

social housing. That was a positive change.

People came here to work and only 0.06% took benefits and it was a

great benefit and a great thing for Britain that they came here and we

benefitted enormously from them. APPLAUSE Now, when it comes to

Bulgaria and Romain yarbgs as Grant says, they have many other

countries to go so as well as us, but the European Union givious the

right to come here, either to work, study or marry, it doesn't give you

the right to come here and take benefits. It does. It doesn't.

does. After three months, the Government gives them benefits. The

Government can look at that, I think three months is not long

enough, but we don't have to wait for any direction from Brussels, we

can actually do something about that. Hang on, you said the

Government didn't give you the right to get benefits, then you say

after three months you do have that right? Yes. It's not long to wait,

is it? No, which is why the Government should look at that.

That's something that Britain can do. It's absolutely right, because

we saw the Poles who came here, they came here to work. It's true

what Nigel says, Romania and Bulgaria are poorer and I don't

think people should get benefits after three months and the

Government should look at that. can get benefits on day one if you

say you are self-employed and are seeking work. The man with the red

tie? Yes. When these people come from these European countries, are

there any checks done on their records, criminal records? Caroline

Flint? I think if somebody comes to work here and they're in a working

environment where there has to be checks, they should be made but

there are issues on how difficulties to check those records

out and there is a discussion in Europe about some information about

sharing information on people's criminal records so we can deal

with that. In terms of Joanna's question about Public Services, we

should be mindful of pressures put on our Public Services because it

is true that when the Poland and other countries came in, the

numbers that we were advised were likely to come in were an

underestimation - they were. And there was concerns in communities

about pressures on hospital services, on schools and housing

and other factors as well. So it's right, your question, that we

should be mindful of this. It's different this time because, of

course, as Grant said, all the other EU member states are opening

up at the same time. I think actually part of the answer is to

look at some of the transitional arrangements. We have supported

that we should go to the max in this situation and we will support

discussions with the Government about whether there should be,

given the state of our economy and other countries in the European

Union, whether or not we should look for more flexibility.

when? You mean when Turkey joins? Is that what you are saying? I'll

explain what I'm saying. If there was a way that we could look at

next year, yes I think we should, but also in terms of future

expansion of the European Union, it's worth a discussion about

whether other tightening up of transitional arrangements should

happen. But I would say this - over 1.5 million people from this

country work and live in other parts of the European Union so it

works both ways in terms of flexibility of Labour and the other

side of it is true as well. Huge numbers of businesses depend on our

trade with the European Union. So let's refer the European Union. If

we think that Nigel's answer is to walk away from this, that won't

solve any of these issues and will leave us isolate and losing out.

The man there in the grey? It may not be a very popular view to take

amid all this Farage mania, but I personally believe that when people

go out in their German cars to an Italian restaurant or a Chinese

take away or a Turkish kebab house, drive home, turn on their Chinese

televisions and sit down on Swedish settees and start complaining about

immigration and how it's had a bad effect on our country, shouldn't

they be thinking that these people have come here, had a benefit and

created a diverse society that's created a better Britain, rather

than a worse one? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

I would like to answer this with a local perspective. I'm not sure

that the national politicians' speech is always necessarily the

best for seeing what is going on in one's own area and I think the most

impressive single document that I've read on this issue actually

comes from Boston Council. It's the task and finish group report about

population and change in Lincolnshire in Boston. It does

answer the question about Public Services because it looks very

carefully at the changes that have been happening in Boston over the

last ten years. It does identify particular management issues with

an influx of any kind of population, but at the same time, what it makes

absolutely clear is that David Cameron chully, we can cope with

this and we can benefit from it -- is that actually, we can cope with

this and we can benefit from it. European migrants have a low use of

the benefits system, they have a low use of the health care system,

they tend to be fit, young people. They take very, very, very small

amounts of social housing, only 1% of social housing is actually

occupied by people who are economic migrants. I think this report,

because it actually dealt directly with local people's concerns, in

one particular area with particular agricultural issues, not mass

industrial issues, it really did manage to draw the right boundary

between denying that there was any problem, but also not being totally

catastrophic about it. Our Public Services can cope.

APPLAUSE A couple more points. The woman up

there on the far left? I'm sorry, I really disagree. I have a business

in Boston, I have family that live in Boston. First explain, we are

talking about Boston which is a 65,000 town, about 20 miles south

of Lincoln, yes? Yes. We've got land at Boston and we've had major

issues with workers, they've got nowhere to go, camping on our land,

we can't move them off because the police aren't interested. Boston is

at breaking point. All the locals can't cope any more. The services,

surgeries, hospitals, I have a family member that's a midwife at

Boston Pilgrim Hospital, the facilities are at breaking point

because of these people coming into the country. Nothing is being done.

There are hardly any locals there any more because they're all moving

away. You go down to Boston High Street and it's just like you're in

a foreign country. It's got to stop. APPLAUSE

Are you talking mainly about the people from Poland? Lithuania, all

sorts. We've had to have signs made in five different languages to say,

"Private land, please no camping". They are from Poland or Lithuania.

I'm half Polish because my grandparents were Polish and came

over during the war and fought in World War II, but we are talking

now of a different generation of immigrants who're disrespectful and

they are not bothered any more. were talking about Boston, do you

want to respond? What I got out of the report was it was really the

fact that there were huge numbers of myths about the numbers of

people who've entered Boston and also the drain on Public Services

and there was a rather charming addition to the report which said

the maternity unit the Pilgrim Hospital had probably been kept

open because of the increase in population of Boston, rather than

being closed. The chief police officer of your county said what

was happening was that an intolerable strain was being put on

policing, hospitals and schools in Cambridgeshire, that's the kind of

thing people are finding. APPLAUSE

Do you want to come into this because you have been silent. You

talked about housing, but what about these other issues? I had the

leaders of Boston Council come to see me when I was Local Government

minister. There are a lot of strain there is. They're concerned that

the census information doesn't represent it. Boston is an unusual

case in that regard, they are at the extreme end of the stresses on

service wis I believe are very real in Boston. Overall, it's important

to recognise with the two countries coming in in October, that they are

able to go to 23 other countries at the same time. That's very

different from when that original Polish immigration occurred with

74,000 people turning up in a time where only 7,000 were expected.

She's shaking her head about somewhere like Boston, if it is as

you describe, would be attractive to anybody else moving there?

because you have got the farming land there and you've got the

farming where they employ them to pull out the cabbages and things

like that. It's encouraging them to come to Boston. There is nowhere

for them to go, so they are just laying on park benches, drinking.

We've got a major issue with alcohol, drinking in the day around

the streets, and Boston have done things with the areas. Just one

point to you - why weren't indigenous boss tonians doing this

work, young people who were out of work, why don't they do the work?

APPLAUSE I don't know why, whether it's

because it's cheaper to employ them. It's exploittive labour. What do

you say? It's exploited labour? the big bosses this is a green

country. They can get these people to work all the hours God sends for

more often than not way below the minimum wage and for the big bosses,

it's been tremendous. APPLAUSE And before 2004, the

cabbages and call flowers were not rotting in fields of Lincolnshire,

they were still getting picked, so the idea that without this mass

influx the whole piece would fall to pieces is nonsense. We must go

on now. APPLAUSE

We are half way through this programme. Now, we know that the

Prime Minister's speech has been postponed, the one he was going to

make tomorrow in Amsterdam about how he intends to approach the

issue of our relationship with the EU and the issue of the referendum.

We had expected that would be tomorrow but it's not. We do have,

of course, a question on what might be in the speech and what the

attitude of the Government might be and it's from Rebecca Longhurst,

please? Can you countries such as Norway and Switzerland have thrived

outside the European Union but still have strong trading links

with EU countries, should the UK follow suit. Should we have strong

trading links and thrive outside Definitely no. Those two countries

are different. Norway pays 80% of what we pay. For that they have no

representation on the European Council, the Commission and

Parliament. They have to introduce every single rule that comes out of

the European Union, so I wouldn't go that way. Switzerland has 120

different free trade agreements, which they've built up over decades.

If we were to come out, we would have to start from scratch. Even

Nigel can all his energy and vigour and vim would find that a lot of

free trade agreements to have to sign if he was in charge, in trying

to replicate what Switzerland has done. The reason the vast majority

of successful businesses want to stay in the European Union, it is

about jonds and prosperity. We do - - jobs and prosperity. We do half

our trade with the European Union, half our foreign investment is from

the European Union. That's why they want to stay there and I think they

are right. APPLAUSE And if Norway's getting such a rough deal, why

doesn't it apply to join as a full member then? Because interestingly

their rural voters think that the European Union doesn't have a

restrictive enough policy on agriculture. And we all think hate

far too restrictive policies. They would never ever support it. But

their Prime Minister would love to join the European Union and has

said so on many occasions. Grant Shapps? No, I don't think we should

have that same relationship. you for staying in? I believe we

have a massive advantage from the single market, which we mened to

pioneer in this country. It is very important in terms of jobs up and

down the country. We need to have that access to the marketplace. But

die also think that Europe's changing dramatically, beyond all

possible imagination even ten years ago, when some people on this panel

were campaigning for us to join the euro. We now know that the euro is

in a lot of difficulty and they are going to have to bring those

countries closer together for the 17 to co-operate. Those changes

mean it is time for us to have a discussions, a debate, about the

type of Europe we want going forward. I want us to be part of

Europe, trading with Europe, but not having the relationship which I

think is very tiring to the British people at the moment. Our view, I

think it's the mainstream view, of the British people, is that it is

time we had a choice about the kind of Europe that we have. Would you

support a referendum on Europe A and B vote yes for staying in?

want to see us be a part of Europe and I'm afraid you will have to way

for the now postponed Europe speech for the details from the Prime

Minister. But I do think it is right that British people have a

say about this. There's a Europe that could work well for Britain.

If it was more about the ideas that got us into the Common Market in

the first place, which we've moved so far from. And if it was a Europe

where the prosperity was put first. You need to be an engine of growth

in Europe not something that layers on the bureaucracy and red tape.

However the Prime Minister defines what he wants, if he doesn't get it

you will still vote to stay in Again, you will have to wait...

whatever it is he wants, if he doesn't get it, you will still vote

to stay in? What I believe is this and I will be as clear as I can, I

think there's a better deal that Britain, a better relationship that

Britain can have with Europe that's more in Britain's interest. I

believe we have a duty to go and negotiate and investigate that, and

then make a decision as a country. Caroline Flint, do you think the

Government's going the right way about this? No I don't. Norway and

Switzerland, they have to pay their dues and abide by the rules but

have no say in the decision making about how those rules are set. I do

think David Cameron and the Government are going the wrong way

about this. David Cameron is getting himself boxed in by his

party. It is not about the national interest. It is about his

confidence and leadership, which is weakening, in running his own party.

The truth is that we do need to I think look at reform of the

European Union. But any traction we have as a country to build

alliances with others who are like minded in the European Union is

being undermined by the statements that are made by David Cameron

around an in-out referendum. And that totally dominating the debate

and not letting us get on with the real issues about getting jobs and

growth back into Europement that's uppermost in people's minds about

their future - are they going to have a job, prosperity, tacking the

issues around the eurozone, and cutting for example the EU budget,

looking at how we can better support businesses in our own

country. We've got all this noise about a referendum but we are not

actually dealing in the here and now with the things that really are

important for us as British citizens. Hold on a minute...

APPLAUSE This is all very confusing. While you guys were in power for 13

years you signed us up for three European treaties. I voted against

Lisbon when I was in Parliament. We had no say in them at all. Your

leader Ed Miliband said he doesn't feel Brussels has too much power

and you are saying we should go and negotiate, a direct quote. You

voted against a new law we introduced which says no more power

can be passed in Europe without the say of the British people. And Ed

Miliband said you might be in favour of that law. The

Conservative Party is mainstream leading on Europe and you guys, the

Labour Party are all over the place, following us. APPLAUSE Well, can I

come back on that? Briefly. It is a nice try, Grant, but actually we

did manage to get reform for example to the Common Agricultural

Policy. You gave away the British rebate. What for? It was suppose to

be for reform of the Common Agricultural Policy but there was

no reform. We did get reforms on the Common Agricultural Policy. We

did get parity on the amount we put into the European Union. You gave

away billions... Don't interrupt each other, and um to an end, the

if you would. There is legislation on the books which says if there's

a transfer of powers from the UK there should be a referendum. We

support that. We need to make reform for example by cutting the

EU budget. We need to look at the ways we can better support through

the rules around state aid and structural funds. I've already said

we need to look at issues about countries coming in and the

arrangements should be changed in the future. Before I come to the

other two speakers, one or two members of audience. How can we be

part of an organisation when the European outcan tell the Government

of the day who or who they can not deport - a suspected terrorist last

year? APPLAUSE That's not actually the EU. It is linked to it. Yes,

but not directly. It is interesting that from where I'm sitting it

appears that in spite of the arrangement both the Government and

the opposition are saying the same thing. No. OK. We'll bring in Nigel

Farage on that. I have to say that everybody from David Cameron to

half this panel say, "Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway

and Switzerland?" Really? They are rich. They are happy. They are self

governing. And unlike the fishermen in lyrics out of Boston, the

Norwegians have 200 miles of the North Sea where all the fish in

that sea are their own and they have a thriving fishing industry.

APPLAUSE So,, the whole European debate... Don't forget the oil.

We've got oil and shale gas now, so stop knocking Britain. Not yet.

guys who supported this European project betrayed the British

fishing industry. It cost 200,000 men their jobs. So shame on all of

you. This debate is dominated by economic scare stories. We are told

by all the parties 3 million jobs would be lost if we weren't part of

the European Union. No we wouldn't. The European Union sells us far

more than we sell them. Audi and Volkswagen would carry on

regardless. It is all a smokescreen which really hides a bigger

question that an economic debate that most people find very

difficult to make their minds up on. The real question here is do we

want to be a self-Europeaning democratic nation that determines

her own destiny and runs her own house? Or not? That's what this

comes down to. I passionately believe that we should be a self-

Europeaning democracy, that we should be proud of who we are, run

our own affairs, and not just trade with Europe but do far more with

the rest of the world, the Commonwealth and countries like

that, but... APPLAUSE But more important, more important than what

I think and what this panel thinks, what's disgraceful is the way these

three parties have frankly lied to us at every single general election,

all promising us a referendum and then you've got Clegg who has U-

turned on it, the Labour Party who U turned on it. The best we might

get from David Cameron is a faint promise from the man who previously

gave us a cast iron guarantee, we might get a vote in five years'

time. It is not good enough. APPLAUSE I want to bring in Mary

Beard. A direct Farage farrago against you. We have a burgeoning

car industry now. It employs 20,000 people, 10% of our exports. If we

came out of the European Union, we would have taxes on this of 5 or

10%. Honda have said they would pull out. Nissan have made the same

concerns. We can't come out of the biggest trading bloc in the world,

for what? Ideology? It is not about self democracy. What's your answer

to him when he says he wants to decide our own future If people

think Europe's the most important issue and they want us to leave the

European Union, people will vote UKIP and Nigel will become Prime

Minister. But until then, no. APPLAUSE Mary Beard. I find it dead

hard to choose between the scare stories and the simplistic little

England kind of speech that Nigel's given us. You do believe in

democracy Mary? Probably as much as you do, Nigel. Clearly. Let me

finish. I started off being extremely opposed to any idea of a

referendum. I know all the reasons against a referendum. I know it is

the uncertainty it will bring. Its timing is unclear and so forth. In

the last week or so I have come to think maybe we should have a

referendum, because then possibly it would give us the chance to

quash some of the silly scare stories about Europe. Perhaps the

context of a referendum debate would enable us to say look, this

is what this country has got out of Europe? We are talking here about

restrictions on dangerous landfill, clean beaches, about economic

advantages. But at the moment gets clouded out by the spurious

eloquence of Mr Farage. APPLAUSE And if... We've really benefited.

Our live lives have changed for the better. So you are not in favour of

us adopting the Norwegian example? Well, we know that it is very

expensive and no power to adopt the Norwegian example. It is a bit like

going into a football match where you make the other side play on the

offside rule and you are free of it. You can't cherry-pick the rules on

integration. Huts here from our audience.Ive Said that

Conservatives are the leading members of trying to do the EU

referendum. Nigel says it is an empty promise. Are we seeing

Cameron seeing that his voters are becoming more Euro-sceptic and

going to UKIP? No, I think the position in the country as a whole

is people are strongly in favour of us having a relationship with

Europe that works for us. It is a long time since people in this

country were given any kind of choice over Europe. Europe's

changed beyond all recognition in that period of time. I think it is

right to go back to the British people and ask, is this the kind of

Europe that you want to belong to? Would a reformed relationship work

better? I think that's a good and honest choice which is what the

mainstream view of the British people is. It is something that

people will get if they vote Conservative at the next election.

I want to the go to the gom the centre. -- the gom the Aren't we to

be mindful that we are paying �15 million or �16 million a year to

Europe? Are we getting value for money? Do you feel we are getting

your money's worth? No, I don't. You Sir. It is partly about the

currency. I don't like the way the European is trying to go towards a

single common domestic policy, but they can't make their money work.

Once that is made true, those who say the euro is ir reversible are

behaving like the Iraqi Information Minister. It is pretty ridiculous

You, Sir, with the spectacles? ridiculous to suggest that the

Germans are renegotiating the terms with Europe, so the best bet is to

get out of Europe. Let's face it, Europe's in a complete mess, the

euro's a complete mess, why would we want to be part of a club where

we put �50 million a week in and get very little out? And to suggest

that they won't buy our goods if we come out of Europe is totally non-

sensical. Export sales have gone up today, the car sales have gone up,

they've gone up primarily because of the sales going into China and

India. The woman there? I don't think we should come out of Europe

at all but I think a referendum would be a good idea. I think

before we have a referendum, we need to get rid of the media

coverage of this and say to Europe -- media coverage that says either

Europe is a terrible place or a good place. We'd be answering a

referendum on something that we don't know enough about, in my view,

we don't have the education. You don't think the political

battle... They argue amongst themselves about whether it's good

or bad and we don't know enough about what Europe benefits us with.

You in the centre there? I agree with the lady just there.

We are not educated enough, it's all biased opinion of one political

party or another and we need better education and facts about how

Europe's organised. Back to 1975 when they did all that? And before

then. That's one of the points. Let's go on. Just as a little light

relief, Carol Jackson, please? these times of austerity, should we

consider introducing horse meat as a cheaper at earn toif beef? Should

we have horse meat as a cheaper alternative to beef? I have eaten

horse meat and much enjoyed it and I'm sure the horse meat trade in

this country, if there is any, is absolutely thanking all this

publicity, it's given it the best pub Li Tie it's ever had. --

publicity it's ever had. This is a vague sense that an anthropologist

sense comes upon one. This is relevant to our discussion about

Europe really. What is absolutely extraordinary is how we still

define ourselves according to which animals we are prepared or not to

eat. Actually, moggy would be very nice and chewy and tasty, but none

of us want to do that. If you are not vegetarian, we are happy with

chicken and horse divides Europe, but I can tell you, I had it deep

fryed in Slovenia and it was gorgeous.

APPLAUSE I can't resist the worst joke of the day which is what do

you put on your burger - a fiver each way!

APPLAUSE LAUGHTER

The point is, it tasted better because it had horse in it. I saw a

clip on TV today that suggested after World War II when rationing

was on, there was an attempt to introduce horse meat to the British

diet, but it didn't work. I do know this, if there is a market foirt,

people would be getting it, but I think in terms of eating it, what

you want to know is, what you're eating and that you have a choice

about it. That clearly is at the heart of this situation we've got

at the moment when people thought they were eating beef burgers and

the other things it said on the packet that might be in there. They

didn't realise that not only were they eating horse but they were

also make eating pork as well. I think it's about knowing what you

are eating that is really important. I've never knowingly eaten horse

meat, but that probably means I've had quite a lot of it. The serious

point is, you must label this properly because it's nothing short

of scandalous for big supermarkets who put in horse meat and not tell

customers that that's what they're eating. We really can't have that.

APPLAUSE Nigel Farage The real shock that we

discover is that one of the burgers had 29% of meat, sew the answer to

the question is, we already do, I suppose, but the real shock was

that it was discovered in Ireland, it wasn't discovered here. So we

have supermarkets who've been selling large quantities of this

and nobody's picked this up or discovered it. We already slaughter

over 10,000 horses a year in this country, which we export to other

parts of Europe, and I do think this won't end with horse meat, and

I'll make a prediction. The next big story on this will be salami

when people realise the amount of it that is imported into Britain

with donkey meat. This has opened up a big debate about what we eat.

I'm never one for Government legislation, but I think the

consumer does deserve to know truthfully what is in the packaged

meat they buy. That will have to be addressed.

You, Sir? It's a valid point. Around 10,000 slaughtered is a

conservative estimate. I've been to horse sales where horses are being

sold at a tenner a time and it's the meat guys that are taking those

horses away. Every horse really should have a passport so it

doesn't get into the food chain. I wonder how much of that is strictly

controlled as well. The chairman of the Conservative Party is in charge.

In charge of many things but probably not horses. I would say

the Food Standards Agency obviously are going to look into this and

will report back. It's a serious matter for the wrong food to get

into the food chain. It did get me wondering why it is we think some

animals are socially acceptable to eat and others are not. I think the

answer is, we basically eat animals that don't themselves eat animals.

So we eat animals which eat grass and what have you. If only it was

so simple. It's not so simple. thought I'd cracked it, but maybe

that's not right. We don't eat animals that eat animals, to we?

Only cannibals. That lady likes cats. We only eat animals that feed

off grass. OK, fine. Let's go on. Five or ten minutes to go. A

pertinent question. Is - Mali in danger of becoming the next

Afghanistan and should the UK get involved at any level? Training as

now emerged of the Mali Army. Grant Shapps for the Government? I think

the situation's obviously very serious. 210,000 people have were

fled, there are a couple of hundred thousand people displaced within

Mali. We have close cooperation with the French and undertakings to

assist and vice versa, so we quickly offered the help of a

couple of transport C17s. I think that's the right action. We are not

going to be involved on the ground. But I think that providing

humanitarian aid and assistance is absolutely right. Isn't that how

all these interventions start, saying we are not going to be

involved? That is often how they finish. We have to just look back a

year or two ago, Libya, we enforced a no-fly zone and there was a

successful outcome. Clearly the French are taking the lead and

we've provided them with a practical, sensible solution.

we given them everything Britain have asked them for? I think...

Have you answered all the questions? I think we've provided

all the practical assistance, transport and system expertise on

the ground. Nigel Farage? Yes, there is a

danger, of course, in a region like that that you get involved in some

sort of conflict. It will go on for a very long time, as we learned

from Afghanistan. We've been there for longer than the entire duration

of the first and Second World Wars. Going to war is the biggest

decision a Government can take, yet Tony Blair seemed to go to war at

the drop of a hat. I hope we've learned from that, but it appears

we haven't. This administration, with little thought got involved

with Libya, we are now getting involved - perhaps it's just

assistance - in Mali. I would say this - I don't want my country

getting involved in endless foreign wars that are not in our national

interest, that if anything, make this country a more dangerous place,

in my view, rather than a safer one. Can we please stop getting involved

in endless military conflicts with the cost, not just in money, but

British human lives. I've had enough of all these conflicts.

APPLAUSE To clarify, your answer to the

French would be no? Absolutely. Caroline Flint - Labour's answer?

hope it's not the case that this turns into another Afghanistan, but

I do think that we also need to recognise that the actions that are

taken by some of these groups which don't necessarily seem to have a

political objective that just want to rule by violence and terrorism

may just happen in somewhere like Mali or Algeria or elsewhere. In

some point, it may come knocking at our door as well. So what we do and

how we support, there isn't a one- size-fits-all in all of this, but

twof be -- we have to be mindful of the actions by these groups and how

they do cross-borders. The other issue is that we have British

nationals working all around the world and, obviously clearly, an

example of this is in the gas station in Algeria today, where

alongside French nationals, Canadians, Japanese workers in this

industry, and therefore of course we are going to be concerned about

the interest and safety and security of our citizens working

overseas. You cover all these holes and another one comes. We are the

first ones to offer the finger to cover the hole. Why do they come to

us? I don't remember the French coming to our aid when we went to

the Falklands. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Mary Beard? The most depressing thing from my point of view,

obviously apart from the loss of life, is the sense that we have

been here before. We have seen this, we have seen airstrikes, will that

be enough, no, foot soldiers will be sent in. Then worse we all

become spuriously expert in a country we know nothing about. Two

weeks ago, I would guess not one of us in this room knew the capital of

Mali, and now we are all talking about Mali as if we understood it -

we don't. I think we were right to assist the French but I'll say this

much and no further. Despite the extraordinary job Britain has done

in Afghanistan and it's been extraordinary and the soldiers have

been extraordinary, we must remember that we are asking our

Army to do more for less and that is not right.

APPLAUSE One point from you Sir, in the grey

on the left? I'm wondering if the Government might reverse the

cutbacks to the MoD as cost-saving measures if we are going to get

involved even in logistical support with the C17s that have gone to

Mali. It might wake them up. We are asking our troops to do more, as

you say, for less, and the pressures were putting on

individual servicemen and their families. There was a �37 billion

hole in the defence budget, it's now fixed, and sending two C17

planes, which will probably be being used somewhere in any case,

to go and help save potentially tens or even hundreds of thousands

of lives, is something Britain can be proud of. Our time is up. Thank

you very much all of you. Whail we'll be in Weymouth next week --

we'll be in Weymouth next week. Ian Hislop will be with us. The week

Hislop will be with us. The week after, we'll be in Lancaster. You