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Tonight, Question Time comes from St Paul's Cathedral in London. We | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
are directly under the great dome designed by Sir Christopher wren | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
and this is of course primarily a place of worship but it's also used | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
as a place to debate the great issues of the day often actually | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
right here under the dome, or in centuries past, outside in the | :00:29. | :00:38. | |
:00:39. | :00:42. | ||
cathedral precinct by St Paul's Good evening to you at home and to | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
our add Jens here at St Paul's and to our panel, the Business | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
Secretary, Vince Cable, the Shadow Health Minister, Diane Abbott, the | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
former Deputy Prime Minister, Michael Heseltine, Mail on Sunday | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
columnist, Peter Hitchens and the Reverend Giles Fraser back in St | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
Paul's for the first time since he resigned his post here over the | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
handling of the protesters in last year's Occupy camp. | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
:01:20. | :01:27. | ||
Thanks very much and Matt Babington has our first question? In light of | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
the recent high profile case, is it time for fundamental overhauls in | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
the way people are selected for jury service? | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
The Vicky Pryce case of course was led to the jury being dismissed. Is | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
it time for a fundamental overhaul of the way people are selected? | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
Diane Abbott? No. I think the principle that you are judged by a | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
jury of your peers is very important. One thing we have to | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
remember about the case in question was that the point at issue was | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
this notion of marital coercion and I'd not heard of it as a legal | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
concept before now. I'm not surprised, in a way that, the jury | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
got a bit muddled. This clearly wasn't perhaps the best jury one | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
has ever heard of, but if you speak to lawyers and judges and people in | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
the legal profession, the principle of trial by jury is very important | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
and it helps to give the legal system some legitimacy because | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
jurors by and large are the only part of the criminal justice system | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
which is actually a cross section of the wider society. | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
Peter Hitchens? Yes, it does need an overhaul. It's partly because it | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
was overhauled and people do know it and some don't, the old property | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
qualification was dropped and people say that was unjust. There | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
was a lot of discussion at the time as to whether we should then have | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
some kind of educational qualification, but they couldn't | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
agree, so they said everybody on the electoral role should be on the | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
jury. At that time, the minimum age for voting was 21, it's now dropped | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
to 18. I think that, although many juries, and I think many people may | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
have served on them, are extremely serious and do their job very well, | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
there is a number of juriesry falls below the proper standard which | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
contain people who simply can't capable of judging the facts before | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
them properly. I think it's time we had some sort of educational | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
qualification and also some sort of minimum age. I think 18 is too | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
young to decide the fate of another human being. | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
What was the property qualification and why do you think that was | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
better? I don't think it was better, it needed to be reformed. In those | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
days, it ruled out in England women almost entirely. In Scotland, they | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
adjusted it so it allowed women in, but it meant you had to be middle | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
class to be on a jury and they decided this had to go. In their | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
thrust, they could not think of any educational or any other | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
qualification to set in its place so everybody gets on. It's clear | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
that not everybody, and if you were facing trial and your entire future | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
and liberty and reputation depended on 12 people, you would be worried | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
by some of the juries which people have to face. There's another thing | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
about this which we again forget, back in the 60s, Roy Jenkins got | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
rid of unanimous juries and many will have seen the film 12 Angry | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
Men. The whole principle was that it had to be unanimous where if | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
someone was convinced about someone's guilt, they could hold | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
out until the end until everyone agreed with them. Now it's gone and | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
it's a matter of time passing and the judge can say, go away and get | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
a majority. These protections are very important for a free society, | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
otherwise a trial is nothing but the state ganging up on you. | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
woman in the middle? I'm a serving police officer. I've seen a number | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
of juries and a number of different almost types of jurys in different | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
courts and it's quite apparent that there are some major failings in | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
the system. I've seen jurors falling asloop and yet they are not | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
challenged in the court -- asleep. There are real concerns around | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
things like that. It's difficult to suggest an educational standard as | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
a minimum but I suggest if failing on the part -- a failing on the | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
part of the prosecution or defence not to ensure that you are working | :05:31. | :05:39. | |
to the lowest common denominator, whether they have a HPD or whether | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
they completed school should make no difference, it should be give | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
tonne them in the words that they can comprehend what's happening -- | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
PhD. But what if you have a jury... It's weird for a juror to say come | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
to a verdict base on the a reason that wasn't presented in court and | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
has no facts to support it either from the prosecution or defence. | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
What was that all about? Giles Fraser? I couldn't disagree more | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
with you, Peter, about that business about having to be | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
intelligent to be on a jury. We have a common law, it's law that's | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
judged by the common people, we all judge each other, that's using | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
common-sense. The idea that intelligence is some way of | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
protecting us against some sort of irrationality in making these | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
decisions is not fair. David was right when he said reason is a | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
slave to the passions and reason isn't always what you want. You | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
want people, us ordinary people, judging each other, that's a basic | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
principle and if you have to be clever or posh or have a house, I | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
think that fundamentally undermines a basic principle of justice. We, | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
as the people of this country, judge each other in court. Can I | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
just say, it's not intelligence. This is very important this, it's | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
not some kind of IQ rating that I'm suggesting, it's experience and | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
wisdom. You are deciding the fate of a fellow human. It's not | :07:12. | :07:20. | |
intelligence. I understand that. The man in the front? This is one | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
high profile case. Had it not been in the newspapers and the media, we | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
wouldn't know about it. This is just another knee-jerk reaction | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
brought about by people like yourself, Peter, who'll do it | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
because it's something to shout about. | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Michael Heseltine? It's very important really. The point about | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
the exception case is important and I strongly would argue for the | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
status quo. Peter helped me by giving examples of the sort of | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
changes that he had in mind. He mentioned age. Well, we are | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
perfectly prepared to send people out at the age of 18 to kill people | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
in Britain's name all over the world where it's appropriate and | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
are you seriously telling me they are too young to make a judgment | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
about what is right or wrong? I don't believe that. | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
APPLAUSE And Peter's other point was, they | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
need to be educated. Who is going to decide who is and who is not | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
educated or what being educated amounts to? The moment you start | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
asking these questions, you have to have someone to make the decision. | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
Who makes the decision? People appointed by the party politicians? | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Some independent group of worthys who've got an intellectual approach | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
to life? You tell me of someone that you would accept as a | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
reasonable alternative for one ludicrous decision by a jury to ask | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
the question David asked drk can we take into account evidence for | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
which there is no fact, nothing to base it on and was never raised in | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
this court? How can you begin to ask a question like that if you are | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
sitting on a jury? The man on the gangway? I think as | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
soon as you start making it about someone's educational level or | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
their age, you make it a preserve of a certain strata of society | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
which I thought was counterproductive to what the whole | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
point was. I suppose the assumption isn't that all 12 jurors wanted to | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
ask this question but maybe one or two did, isn't it? And then the | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
rest of the jury said, we can't explain it to you, we'd better get | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
the judge to explain it to you. Is that your reading of it? Yes, the | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
point's been made that this was a very odd case and unusual trial. | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
The point is, you are going to get people on juries that are not very | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
bright and jurors that are incompetent, but you will get | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
judges and prosecutors who are incompetent. Giles is right, it's | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
one of the basic principles of criminal justice in the UK that you | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
have a right to be tried by your peers through a jury. We tamper | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
with it at our peril. At the past, politicians have tried to remove | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
jury trials, it was suggested that the ordinary members of public are | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
not bright enough to deal with fraud trials. That was a backward | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
move. I think the jury system is obviously going to have bad cases | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
but we should preserve the principles, it's a right one and we | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
should treasure it. One more point and we'll move on. The lady there? | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
Should we ensure that all jurors can speak English and understand | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
English? I don't think that was the issue... That's not the question. | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
This was an exceptional jury and you shouldn't make extrapolations | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
about juries, you know, a lady there said she'd seen jurors | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
falling asleep, I've heard of judges falling asleep and | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
barristers that could send you to sleep. | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
LAUGHTER I believe that the right to a jury trial by people that look | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
like a cross section of the wider community is absolutely crucial for | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
people like my constituents continuing to have confidence in | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
the criminal justice system. must be right that... But you do | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
have to speak English? It must be right that you have to speak | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
English or you can't begin to understand the trial. That's not an | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
issue. It wasn't named as an issue in this particular case, but there | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
will be cases, and there are cases, where some jurors don't have | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
English as their first language and may speak it but may not fully | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
understand the nuances of some of the stuff that is discussed and | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
someone in court might have an interpreter, but the jury members | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
donts. -- don't. donts. -- don't. | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
APPLAUSE This is not just an individual case. | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
If you are conscious of what is going on in the courts and pay | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
attention and report on them, you will see there is a problem with | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
juries which goes wider than this case. One thing I might say to | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
Michael Heseltine, the very run why we send young men out as soldiers | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
often wrongly is because they are young, unwise and prepared to kill | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
and risk terrible danger in a way that wise people wouldn't and... | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
That is true... The truth is not popular but it's the case. Why do | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
we send young men out to kill? Xaept because of that and secondly, | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
you might be aware of the fact that there are strong moves to lower the | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
voting age to 16. How many of you want your futures decided by 16- | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
year-olds? APPLAUSE As a former Secretary of | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
State for Defence to describe the British armed forces in the wrai | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
you did is disgraceful -- way you did is disgraceful. | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
APPLAUSE. I haven't described the British armed forces in any sense | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
at all, I've... You described the soldiers in language which was | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
viciously unfair to them. Young men are unwise, you were unwise when | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
you were young and so was I and don't try to deny it or silence me | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
with silly rhetoric. It's ridiculous. I've said nothing | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
uncomplimentary about the Armed Forces and you know it perfectly | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
well. You wait until you see the transcript. | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
Just to clarify, perhaps you would say what you said about 18-year- | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
olds once more? We cynical politicians send young men out to | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
kill and be killed. That's what I said. No, it's not what you said. | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
It is. You said they were stupid. said no such thing. Check the | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
recording. We'll see the record. You, Sir? I'm 18, joining the Armed | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
Forces next year, I think I can make an educated decision much more | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
than older people. I'm mature enough to decide on what I want to | :13:50. | :14:00. | |
:14:00. | :14:19. | ||
do and also to be on a jury if I The next question is from Tom Crill. | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
Heather Frost, an unemployed mother of 11, is being a six-bedroom eco- | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
mansion by her local council. Is this an example of society looking | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
after those in need? Or is it a waste of taxpayers' money? Vince | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
Cable? We don't know a great deal about this family other than what | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
her neighbours didn't approve of her told one of the popular | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
newspapers. This was, as I understand it, was not a mansion. | :14:47. | :14:56. | |
It was being occupied at two-and-a- half people a room. She was accused | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
of having a horse. She had quite a large family and, as I understand | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
it, the older children were working and earning and paid for it. The | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
really serious issue was that the popular press went for this lady | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
because she had a large number of children, she had 11 children. The | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
argument was isn't this woman feckless? Well, it turned out when | :15:20. | :15:28. | |
people investigated that she was sterile. She has had cervical | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
cancer and nobody had the sensitivity to realise that was her | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
problem. They jumped on this bandwagon, a woman with a horse, a | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
big house, let's trash her, it is a good way of attacking the benefits | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
system. It was outrageous the way it was dealt with. OK. Iain Duncan | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
Smith in your Government has floated the idea of capping child | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
benefits to two children, hasn't he? After two children, it is up to | :15:58. | :16:07. | |
you? That is a foolish suggestion. I have said so many times. | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
think it won't happen? Of course it won't happen. What they do under | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
the Conservative Government is up to them. This is not coalition | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
policy. Michael Heseltine? It is not the component policy of the | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
Conservative Party. So why should I try to defend what is not in | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
existence? Iain Duncan Smith floating a few thoughts? I don't | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
know what that amounts to. Does it mean that someone said he had said | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
it? Did some adviser say, "We are going to ask him to do it."? | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
said it to the Today programme, which is The Bible of modern | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
politics(!) He suggested a cap on child-related benefits for two | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
children. The fact is that he has been a pioneer in looking at the | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
whole back to work agenda and he's floating an idea which is his. | :17:05. | :17:13. | |
Let's get back to Heather Frost. And the 11 children and the eco- | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
mansion that is being built. What is your view of that? I think I | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
start off where virtually everybody would start off and say why are we | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
providing facilities of this sort for somebody who has got 11 | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
children? That is way out of what normal expectation is. That is one | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
in the gut starts. Now you put yourself in the position of the | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
local authority. The fact is what are they going to do? Will they put | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
her on the street? They have to have a solution. If there were 11 | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
children, it takes a lot of accommodation. If I was in the | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
local authority, I would never put her on the street. You then have a | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
problem. Fortunately, it is so much of an exceptional problem that I | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
don't think we ought to turn it into public policy. The man up | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
there on the right? The simple reason why we are providing this | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
house is the Conservative- originated policy of selling all | :18:10. | :18:18. | |
the council houses. Peter Hitchens? That point is absolutely right. The | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
much-lauded policy of selling council houses has been a | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
catastrophe for this country. It has deprived us of a very important | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
resource for a cheap electoral gain. The way in which this decision is | :18:30. | :18:38. | |
now universally praised always puzzles me. I think now that | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
housing benefit - it costs more than the Royal Air Force and it is | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
a much more inefficient, unfair and wasteful way of housing people than | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
the council houses used to be. The issue about the lady herself - I'm | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
all in favour of big families. They should be founded upon marriage and | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
they should be founded upon people supporting themselves if at all | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
possible. If you set up a system where welfare payments are paid and | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
houses given to people who are not in that circumstance, you can't be | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
surprised when they take advantage of that system. I don't blame this | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
lady for what she has done at all. I blame the politicians who, for 50 | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
years, have encouraged this kind of behaviour. You can't say it is the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
responsibility of people who look at the system and take advantage of | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
it. That is absurd. If we want it to stop, we need to say, "Reform | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
the welfare system which you have made absurdly overgenerous and do | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
something about restoring the institution of marriage which you | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
have destroyed." APPLAUSE Giles Fraser? I think it is scandalous | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
that we are using the example of this woman as propaganda for | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
benefit cuts. We are being softened up by examples like this that there | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
is some distinction between the deserving and undeserving poor. It | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
is a cover for a much greater scandal which is the scandal in our | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
housing market, the scandal of what's happening to poor people, | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
particularly in London where house prices are so out of control and | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
ordinary people can't live here and what's happening at the moment in | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
London is that ordinary people are being priced out of the centre of | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
town and we will end up being like Paris in this country where all of | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
the poor people live on the outside and the wealthy live on the middle. | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
These are the real scandals. You find one small example of a woman | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
like this which tugs at this seems unfair. It is propaganda for a | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
nastier form of cuts. That is the real scandal here. You, Sir? Well, | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
after doing just a little bit of research, I found out a bit more. | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
It wasn't a local authority that built the house for her. The local | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
authority sold the land to a housing association, the housing | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
association then built the house. She doesn't own the house. She is | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
paying rent on it. Being a caseworker, I know that once she | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
leaves, she does leave that house, another large family will pay rent | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
to the housing association. Isn't this another example of stories | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
that demonise people on benefit because it's now become public | :21:25. | :21:33. | |
enanynumber one? As a caseworker, I used -- public enemy number one? As | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
a caseworker, I have worked hard all my life. This is making people | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
feel ashamed of the money they have taken. We know the economy is bad. | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
There are more people on benefits. We should be helping these people, | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
not hindering them. OK. The man on the back row? The reason the UK has | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
such large volumes of debt is because of these high welfare | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
payouts. We can't afford to build people houses. What do you think of | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
this case? It is an example of how generous these welfare benefits are | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
that we can't afford. The man over there on the left? I take issue | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
with the Canon. Anybody has an entitlement to live in Central | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
London. I live in Hertfordshire. I can't afford to live in Central | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
London. Why should people have it as an entitlement? APPLAUSE You | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
want to answer that? The question is what sort of city do we want? Do | :22:40. | :22:48. | |
we want a city full of very, very expensive houses owned by Russian | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
oligarchs where no-one lives, it becomes a ghost town and all the | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
poorer people live on the outside? We want a London that is a mix of | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
people. I understand, I couldn't afford to live in London in a | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
million years. I understand that. The idea that ordinary people can't | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
afford to live in London I think is a scandal. We will come to a | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
question that is pertinent to that in a moment. Diane Abbott? Anybody | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
who thinks that overall the welfare system is absurdly overgenerous | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
doesn't know many people trying to live on welfare benefit. Not a week | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
goes by without one of these scare stories, picking out someone who | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
doesn't seem like a member of the deserving poor, they are splashed | :23:40. | :23:49. | |
in our tabloid papers and it is to soften us up for benefit cuts. And | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
when you drill down with these stories, it is never what it seems. | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
She's not been given a house, as the gentleman pointed out. The | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
council sold a piece of land for �220,000 to a housing association | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
who have built a six-bedroom unit on it which she's going to be | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
allocated. When her children leave home, she will have to move out. | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
The point is this: It has been a principle of British welfare | :24:18. | :24:25. | |
legislation since the 1945 National Assistance Act that we don't put | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
children on the street. The gentleman that said it is a waste | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
of public money. What are you suggesting? Are you suggesting the | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
children would go into care? You cannot take these bad, difficult | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
cases and use them to undermine our system of welfare. There is an | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
underlying narrative, oh London, Hackney, the East End is full of | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
people on benefits who don't want to work. I see more people on | :24:51. | :24:58. | |
benefits every week. I don't see people who don't want to work. I | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
see people that want to work. Kids that have left university, people | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
that have been made redundant who want to work and cannot get jobs. | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
I'm glad unemployment is coming down. The issue is not this one | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
woman with her Baroque case. The issue is how we are softened up for | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
increasing benefit cuts whereby the poor pay for financial prices which | :25:23. | :25:33. | |
:25:33. | :25:35. | ||
bankers made. APPLAUSE You, Sir? The fact that every penny collected | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
in income tax goes on welfare, that is a sign that the welfare is too | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
big? Half of that money goes to pensioners? Are you suggesting we | :25:44. | :25:51. | |
should stop paying old able pensions? Not at all. The amount of | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
income tax doesn't cover the Navy, the Army. Most money that is | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
collected goes on welfare and pensions. It's a huge amount. | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
you suggesting that we should spend more on helicopter gunships and | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
less on the most vulnerable in our society? Not at all. You are | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
suggesting the proportion of money spent on welfare is greater than it | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
should be from the tax take, is that your point? If every penny | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
collected goes on welfare, all the other things that have to be paid | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
for... Vince Cable, the man in the know on this? Let's start from the | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
same point. This was a banking- induced crisis. We are paying the | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
price for it. The economy is smaller and we are poorer. There is | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
a genuine problem about the welfare budget. That doesn't mean to say | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
you should demonise the people who are beneficiaries of it. The budget | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
is rising rapidly and we have to deal with it. There is a problem | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
around housing benefit. Giles explained the reason that in London | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
85,000 council houses have been lost, they were sold. There are | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
more people needing them so they are pushed into the private sector, | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
rents go through the roof, you, the taxpayer, has to subsidise the | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
landlords to keep those people in place and the budget gets out of | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
control. That is why we have introduced some painful and | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
difficult measures. It is possible - it is right - to be compassionate | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
to people who are genuinely poor and need help while recognising | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
that there is a real problem with the welfare budget. We have to deal | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
with it. It is very interesting - the whole financial explosion began | :27:35. | :27:45. | |
:27:45. | :27:48. | ||
in America when President Clinton encouraged them to be more generous. | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
It then became a phenomenon across the Western world. You can single | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
out the bankers. Nobody is likely to defend them. We are in the City | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
of London. Governments spent more money than their economies could | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
afford. Individuals borrowed on their credit cards, on mortgages, | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
they are all hocked up to the eyeballs and the bankers are in the | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
middle. We were all in the same game, politically, economically, | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
banking companies, the whole lot. The bubble burst. When it burst, | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
everybody drew in their horns. It is so easy to find someone to blame. | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
We were all involved in this, particularly the last Labour | :28:34. | :28:44. | |
:28:44. | :28:51. | ||
Government. No. Let's move on. It is from Kate Horton. The latest | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
census suggests that white Brits are in a minority in London | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
accounting for 45% of residents. Is this a good or a bad long-term | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
trend? The latest census suggests white British-born are in a | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
minority in London, 45% of residents. Is it good, or a bad | :29:08. | :29:18. | |
:29:18. | :29:24. | ||
$:/STARTFEED. Michael Heseltine? there's one speech I made of which | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
I was proud, it was in 1981, which included the words "They are black, | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
they are British, they were born here, they vote here." that is a | :29:32. | :29:42. | |
fact. So there's nothing you can do to turn back history. I defied my | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
party in the late 60s over the race relations Bill when I believed that | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
anyone who's lived in this country was entitled to live here within | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
the law without prejudice and with equal opportunity. That now is the | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
position so is it strong, is it weak, is it right, is it wrong? It | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
is a fact, and we should live with it and we should build on it and we | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
should see the incredible talent that there is in the immigrant | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
community and always has been, whether they were Jews or Catholics, | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
whatever, that's a different issue, but still, it's the same issue that | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
we have had many diverse groups of people and the only way we will all | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
prosper is to treat them well, live with them and give them the | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
opportunity to contribute to the wider benefit of society which they | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
want to do because actually they have exact think same instincts | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
that we do. They want to be happy, they want to love their children, | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
live in peace, live in the law and the vast majority of them want to | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
work hard. APPLAUSE | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
Kate buzz that answer your question? | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
Yes, I think so. I wanted to know everyone's views on that. All right. | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
What do you think, Peter Hitchens, about the balance that she's | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
described? Well, my gauge rises at the use of the word "White". The | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
issue should never be and really should never be the colour of | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
somebody's skin. I thought we all very long ago accepted that what | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
mattered about somebody was not the colour of his skin but the content | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
of his character. I'm not interested in what colour they are. | :31:26. | :31:33. | |
Why does the census... I don't know. Should the census... Many... The | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
real question is, does a country which has a very large amount of | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
immigration adapt to the immigrants or do the immigrants who arrive in | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
that country adapt to that country? And it's my very strong view that | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
the only hope of a tranquil and peaceful and productive and | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
successful society is that the migrants adapt to the place to | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
which they come. For very many years, we have not been encouraging | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
or indeed helping them to do that. We have been encouraging through a | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
policy of official state multiculturalism that people should | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
stay separate and remain within their migrant communities. We have | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
not created a single British nationality. There are various | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
feeble efforts to make them take exams in how to claim social | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
security benefits or who was Winston Churchill - that's not the | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
same. We have ceased to be proud of our own country culture, history, | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
religion, language and we haven't asked our new citizens to be proud | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
of them either. I see the result of that. It's not a question of | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
whether they are white, it's a question of whether they are | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
British. Britain is ceasing to become Britain, that is my view and | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
that's a great shame for us who're here and for those who've come. | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
APPLAUSE You, Sir? I had the privilege to be | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
a games maker during the Paralympic Games last year, London 2012. We'd | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
not have got those Games had we not been a diverse and international | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
City. I had the privilege of meeting citizens of 20, 30, 40 | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
different countries during my time as a Games maker and I said to them | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
"What do you think of the Paralympics, what do you think of | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
London?" and the common response that I got wherever in the world | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
they come from is "London is my second favourite City". London is | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
their favourite second city because of its diversity, because of its | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
international perspective, because of its history. | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
The person up there? APPLAUSE I was just following on | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
from that gentleman's point that I don't think that immigrants come | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
here to become British, they come here because it's the closest they | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
can find to a democracy where they can live the lives that they want | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
to live to follow the face that they want to follow -- faith that | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
they want to follow, and that should be celebrated and that's | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
what makes Britain British. Giles Fraser, can I just repeat the | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
question. The latest census says white British are now in a minority | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
in London, 45% of residents. Is that good or bad as a trend? | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
indifferent to it. I think it makes no difference, white, black, | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
whatever. I'm not interested and I don't think that the census ought | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
to collect that information at all. I mean, the point, the underlying | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
point is that I think London is the most wonderfully diverse place in | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
the world, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else precisely because of | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
that. It's always had a history of welcoming people from all around | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
the world. My surname was originally Freederberg, not Fraser, | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
because a lots of my family came over here as Jews and contributed | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
greatly to the society as waves of people from all around the world | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
have done so. It enriches our culture and the idea that it's a | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
problem that multiculturalism is a problem. I'm an unashamed | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
multiculturalist, it adds hugely to what is so rich and exciting about | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
place like this. You disagree with Peter? Completely. | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
The woman up there in the back row? My grandparents came to this | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
country in the early 20th century as immigrants from Eastern Europe | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
and brought up my parent who is in turn brought up me to respect | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
everything British. This country fed us, clothed us, educated us. I | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
don't think it's a problem with colour, I think any problem that we | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
have is in my grandparents house, English was spoken, everybody was | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
expected to learn our host language, to learn our host manners, to | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
respect the law, et cetera, and everything that goes with it. So | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
when people are talking about colour, I don't actually think they | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
are meaning colour, I think they are meaning culture and that's | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
where I think that we have to integrate to get a fully integrated | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
community. Diane Abbott? | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
APPLAUSE Well, I'm one of those 55% non- | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
white people living in London. Let me say this; London is the City | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
that immigration made. It's not a question of London tolerating | :36:21. | :36:27. | |
immigrants, immigrants made London, whether it was Irish in the 19th | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
century, whether it was Asian shopkeepers, whether it's French | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
and American bankers in the City of London, all the great world Cities, | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
London and New York and Paris, they are built by immigrants from people | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
that attract all over the world. As for the talk of how we non-white | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
Britons have to adapt to British culture, there is no group of | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
people more passionately pro- British, more passionately pro- | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
Royalty actually than amongst the west Indians with whom I grew up. | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
It's crude to assume that because you were born overseas you don't | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
love this country and the Royal Family. There is talk about fewer | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
white people and they are moving out. The demographic patterns in | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
London are to do with class, not colour. My parents came to this | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
country, lived in Paddington. They moved out to Harrow, then to | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
Edgware. Now, my brother lives in Buckinghamshire. That's not white | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
flight, that is people gradually moving up the social ladder. Class | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
is the issue, not race. I'm proud to be a Londoner, I'm proud London | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
is one of the most diverse cities on the planet and that is what | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
makes it a great city, its diversity. | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
APPLAUSE I agree with everything Diane's | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
just said. As it happens, I have a racially mixed family of my own. I | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
don't know whether my three children and grandchildren are | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
regarded as white or non-white on your definition, I mean I think | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
the... The census? Well it's offence toif try to draw | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
conclusions based on it and it takes us back to the kind of South | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
African apartheid. Do you think the census should abandon this? I think | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
it should. It creates unnecessary gition. Going back to the original | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
question, is this good or bad - what is bad is if you get | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
segregation and ghettos. Some American cities have that. I don't | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
think it's happening in London, I think London is a much more mobile, | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
vibrant city and our ethnic minorities spread out. I represent | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
a constituency in South West London, Twickenham, when I first went to | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
live there it was almost exclusively white. Now it has an | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
ethnic minority population of 10- 12%, it's ethnically mixed, and | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
that's desirable and white. Where the public debate is, it shouldn't | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
be about race. If there is an argument about migration and much | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
of it in London has been from eastern yap, it's from Poland, | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
Lithuania and they of course make a positive contribution to the | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
economy. But the migration issue is separate from the white non-white | :39:17. | :39:27. | |
:39:27. | :39:27. | ||
thing which I think we should bury. You, Sir? There is an article on | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
the BBC News web page highlighting a white population the size of | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
Glasgow's left London, so it is white flight which kind of | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
highlights that this integration isn't happening. It's a class issue. | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
It is not the case that white Londoners look at an area and think, | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
there's lots of people, I'm not moving there. Middle class people | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
are moving into Hackney, Brixton, even moving into Brent which was | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
very western when I was a child. There is an issue about class. The | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
issue about colour is I think a misnomer. | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
Michael Heseltine? I think the fascinating thing to me is that | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
London is, as we all know, enormously diverse today and Boris | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
Johnson's just become an elected mayor and that says something about | :40:17. | :40:25. | |
the spread of interests that exist. I don't follow that one. It is, | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
because if it was a class phenomenon and the poor and all | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
that and the blacks... They wouldn't have voted for Boris? | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
That's right. The point I want to make is about the census. It so | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
happens that in a job I'm doing for the Government at the moment, we | :40:42. | :40:50. | |
are looking at the ethnic mix of Birmingham. You can get statistics | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
which show that the unemployment levels in Birmingham are bad | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
compared with other parts of the country. But if you then look at | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
the ethnic mix of certain communities, you find that they are | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
very significantly Pakistani or Bangladeshi. The women in those | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
communities, for cultural reasons, don't want to work on the same | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
proportionate levels as other groups of people. So by knowing the | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
racial mix, you realise that it's not that the economy isn't working | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
in those areas, it's simply that the culture within those families | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
persuades the women not to try and work. So it can be helpful in | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
knowing what the problems are. OK. Do you agree with that? You, | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
Sir? Well, before everyone jumps on the bandwagon that Britain is | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
losing its Britishness, I would like to ask people like Peter | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
Hitchens define being British? Sorry, what is the question? Define | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
being British. He wants you to define being British before you | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
assert that Britain is losing its Britishness. I don't think David | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
wouldn't allow me to go on long enough. David wouldn't allow you to | :42:07. | :42:17. | |
go on very long, no. I've write an good book about this. We won't | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
allow you to promote your book. Which I would invite you the read. | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
We'll move on. We have had a certain amount of time on that and | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
I want a question from Peter Beaumont, please? Are the numbers | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
in George Osborne's economic strategy as wildly optimistic as | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
his forecast for the 4G auction? Remembering that they were hoping | :42:38. | :42:46. | |
to raise �3.5 billion and only got �2 and a bit from the announcement | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
today and it was a key component of the Osborne economic strategy in | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
the Autumn Statement that this money would come through so they | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
seem to have a large hole there. Giles Fraser, do you think that the | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
optimism that George Osborne shows is as exemplified by the 4G | :43:07. | :43:14. | |
auction? Well, it's clear that the numbers don't add up and that... | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
Stkpwhrs which numbers? They don't add up in the last budget which was | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
premised on the fact that there was going to be more money coming in | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
from the sale of 4G. But actually, it's a wider problem, the problem | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
about the way in which that budget really doesn't work because it's | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
premised on the idea that austerity is the only way forward. I think | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
it's just another example of how the numbers don't work out for the | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
current Government and what we really need to do is invest money | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
in our infrastructure, particularly in our housing, to stimulate the | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
economy, to create more growth and so that actually we can find a way | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
of getting this economy kick started again. But at the moment, | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
if all we are doing is garrotting our economy with austerity, we are | :44:03. | :44:13. | |
:44:13. | :44:17. | ||
never going to find a way forward. It looks like it will balloon under | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
the coalition to something like �600 billion more in the | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
coalition's time in office? Isn't that sensible? What we are trying | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
to do is to reduce - sorry to use economic jargon - the structural | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
deficit. It is the amount of revenue we used to get from the | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
banking system that disappeared. The Government has to deal with | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
that over time. We started hoping to do this over four years. We are | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
now planning to do it over seven, which is the time period the last | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
Labour Government set. I mean, when the economy slows down, the | :44:57. | :45:07. | |
:45:07. | :45:07. | ||
sensible thing to do, it's the let the deficit widen temporarily - | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
that's what's happened. Similarly, the Government has to borrow to do | :45:13. | :45:20. | |
the kind of things Giles is talking about. That was deliberately | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
allowing the debt to grow? What the Government is trying to do is two | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
things. This is why the austerity versus growth argument is so | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
foolish. The first is to try to get the public finances in order - we | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
are doing that. You have to try and stimulate growth. That does involve | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
doing some of the things Giles has described - and that's absolutely | :45:47. | :45:57. | |
:45:57. | :45:59. | ||
right. So we have to have attempts to get growth alongside dealing | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
with the deficit. The reason why this is so difficult is because we | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
are dealing with a crisis the likes of which we have not had before. I | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
have often said this is the economic equivalent of a heart | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
attack. Economies don't just bounce back. We are dealing with a banking | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
system that has been badly damaged. We are dealing with Government | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
finances that have been hit in an extraordinary way. We are dealing | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
with a pile-up of personal debt which Michael Heseltine described. | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
Getting out of this crisis will be very difficult. It's got to be done | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
by this combination of discipline with the public finances and trying | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
to support and stimulate economic growth. You are saying that for the | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
moment, Osborne's policy, the coalition policy, is deliberately | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
to allow debt to increase because that will expand the economy? | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
I have never heard it described like that. We are flexible and we | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
have to be flexible. You, Sir? one thing they are not doing, there | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
is a good idea to improve the rail service, not build HS2, but what | :47:08. | :47:15. | |
they are not doing is cutting the enormous salaries of town hall | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
workers, civil servants and their enormous pensions. That is the one | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
thing they are not doing. They are cutting the wrong things and not | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
expanding the right things. Building aircraft carriers with no | :47:28. | :47:35. | |
aircraft - it is outrageous. APPLAUSE Michael Heseltine? Well, | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
the reason why the deficit is continuing is because the | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
Government has decided that it will not cut the Health Service. It will | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
not emasculate - you may think - you want to cut the Health Service, | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
you get elected on that platform. This coalition is not going to do | :47:56. | :48:04. | |
it. The welfare system is being preserved largely in tact. So | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
Vince's point is the right one... TELEPHONE RINGS There is a | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
telephone going. Is that your wife?! LAUGHTER It is the | :48:15. | :48:25. | |
:48:25. | :48:26. | ||
Chancellor! You have gone off message! No. My wife is supporting | :48:26. | :48:33. | |
what I have been saying! She rang me to let me know! I'm not going to | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
be stopped. The fact of the matter is, the reason why the economy and | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
George Osborne's budget is taking longer to sort is because we are in | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
the middle of a world recession that none of us have seen before. | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
It's taking longer to sort out. There is no domestic policy that is | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
going to make a serious difference to the world situation in which we | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
trade. If we can't see recovery in Europe, if China is still slowing, | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
if India is slowing, if America's got a cliff-edge situation, that | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
limits our discretion and it is simply dishonest for any party to | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
come and pretend there is a serious option. We have to sweat it out. | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
The fact is the extraordinary thing to me in this relatively stagnant | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
situation is we have got more people at work in this country | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
today than we have ever had. We have more women at work. We have | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
more young people at work. So, despite the appalling economic | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
world circumstances, this coalition has managed to preserve employment | :49:41. | :49:48. | |
at record levels. That is extraordinarily impressive. Diane | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
Abbott? Sweat it out, the only thing to do? The problem is it is | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
the poorest and middle-income people that are suffering because | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
of this Government's economic policies. Dr Cable is a reasonable | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
man, propping up an unreasonable Tory-led Government. Of course, | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
George Osborne's figures are dodgy. You might argue a lot about George | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
Osborne is dodgy! To be perfectly serious, they came in, this | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
coalition, promising to cut the deficit in four years. To clear up | :50:21. | :50:29. | |
your mess! No, you seem to have forgotten... APPLAUSE You seem to | :50:29. | :50:37. | |
be overlooking... We can't overlook your mess! The collapse of Lehman's, | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
but my point is this. The reason George Osborne's figures are dodgy | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
is because he's completely predictable. You do not achieve | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
growth by making the cuts in public expenditure that this Government | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
has done. For Lord Heseltine to say, "The reason we can't clear up the | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
deficit is because we didn't cut the NHS." Tell that to the people | :51:03. | :51:11. | |
in Lewisham who are seeing their hospital close. APPLAUSE To clarify, | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
are you saying therefore that the debt should be allowed to rise even | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
further than it is rising at the moment? No. Oh yes you are. We have | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
always said there had to be cuts. Cuts of this scale - the problem is, | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
as you probably know, that when you cut in the public sector, it has a | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
multiplier effect in the private sector. There are tradesmen, | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
builders, service workers all across London who can't make money | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
because of the cuts in public sector spending. The cuts the | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
Tories have made have plunged us into a double-dip recession and if | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
we are not very fortunate, it will be a triple-dip recession. | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
Osborne's figures are off. The rest of us are paying the price. | :51:56. | :52:05. | |
right. Yes, you, Sir? The problem doesn't matter if the deficit is | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
growing at the moment. The problem is is the Bank of England's | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
credibility about to be tested? We have rising rates and we have a | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
falling currency. That is is a real problem. Can we manage our debt? | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
You think the size of the deficit... It doesn't matter. Everybody has a | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
large deficit. Can we manage it? Will it become a problem for the | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
Bank of England? The woman behind you? I was going to say there are | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
some areas of our economy that are still growing, like the creative | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
and cultural industries which are 7% of our GDP. What can we do to | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
help those industries? We will come to that point. The woman on the | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
second row, third row from the back? I think corporate tax from | :52:53. | :53:01. | |
private companies seem to be a driving force in raising a tax | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
revenue and to help pay the country's deficit, what is the | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
Government doing helping businesses and promoting growth? I'm not clear | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
what you are saying. You should or shouldn't be relying on corporate | :53:18. | :53:27. | |
tax? Corporate tax is helping raise tax revenue. The Government seems | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
to be helping - the Government doesn't seem to be helping private | :53:32. | :53:39. | |
businesses to promote growth. The man up there? I find it rather | :53:39. | :53:46. | |
rich to hear Diane Abbott say that the public sector, there's cuts | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
from Government expenditure. The Government is not really cutting | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
public sector expenditure. It's still increasing in real terms. And | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
what Labour left as an inheritance was so bad that the country is now | :54:02. | :54:12. | |
having to pay the price for that. You, Sir? It is doing it in my | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
hospital in Lewisham and it is doing it because neighbouring | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
hospitals have such poor PFIs negotiated by the Government. They | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
are closing a functioning hospital. They are making cuts where they can. | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
Vince Cable, on the point of public sector cuts. Is he right or he | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
right? There are certainly parts of Government where we have had to | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
take painful measures and real cuts have had to be made. The NHS budget | :54:43. | :54:50. | |
is protected. There are pressures on the NHS. I remember fighting | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
hospital closures when Diane's party were this power. The NHS | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
budget has been ringfenced and protected. The rest of Government | :54:56. | :55:03. | |
is having to take some very serious cuts. You are looking pained? | :55:03. | :55:11. | |
is a moral issue here. Seeing as we are sitting in the City of London | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
and the city was part responsible for the financial mess. The banks, | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
yes. If it is the case that it's people in this square mile that | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
were largely responsible and yet the people who will pay the price | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
for that are the poor and vulnerable on benefits and who need | :55:29. | :55:39. | |
our hospitals and so forth, there is a moral problem with that | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
equation. Peter Hitchens? Well, it is interesting to listen to the | :55:44. | :55:53. | |
Conservative and Labour Party, which aren't that different. | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
will be better? This isn't a crisis. This is national decline. We have | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
been living for many, many years far beyond our means as a country | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
and as people. And now the debts are being paid. They will be paid - | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
this is already happening with the currency - it will happen more when | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
we lose our AAA rating - through a decline in the value of the pound | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
and the consequent inflation. It's happening already through state- | :56:22. | :56:22. | |
sponsored inflation through quantitative easing. What will | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
happen in the end is that we will cease to be able to pay because of | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
this inflation and because of this decline for the things which we | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
have refused to reform. As a country, we will not look in the | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
face, no political party - Michael Heseltine is quite right - no | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
political party will stand and say, "We will cut the National Health | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
Service." They would lose the election. All right, don't let the | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
Government do it. Let it happen through inflation and national | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
decline. That is what you are seeing. This crisis will not end. | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
It will go on and on as we sink to a lower level in the world. Do you | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
agree with that? There is something in it. I have always been in favour | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
of reducing public consumption. This morality issue is the one that | :57:14. | :57:24. | |
:57:24. | :57:29. | ||
Just take this issue of welfare reform. Now, what this Government | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
is doing in order to contain the welfare budget is saying that there | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
can't be more for a family on welfare than the average earnings | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
of those in work. In other words, the people paying the taxes in work | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
shouldn't expect to sustain living standards for people on the welfare | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
benefit. I can tell you that that will lead to people saying, "Oh, | :57:56. | :58:03. | |
what about poor Willie "and it is a hard-luck story. That is is a moral | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
issue. Why should the vast majority of people at work pay to sustain | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
families who are out of work at higher living standards? That is a | :58:13. | :58:20. | |
moral issue. APPLAUSE Vince Cable, briefly. We have to stop, actually. | :58:20. | :58:28. | |
Our hour is up. We are going to be in Eastleigh next Thursday. We will | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
go out live after the voting is over. We will be able to talk about | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
over. We will be able to talk about why people voted the way they did. | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
I don't know who is going to be on the penl yet, except for the film- | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
maker -- the panel yet, except for the film-maker Ken Loach. We will | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
be in Dover the week after. You can apply via | :58:52. | :58:56. |