Browse content similar to 28/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight we were live in Eastleigh with the polls close in the by- | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
election that set the two coalition parties set against each other and | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
saw UKIP apparently coming up on the rails. Welcome to Question Time. | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
Good evening to you at home. Good evening to our audience here. | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Welcome to our panel. On our panel the Liberal Democrat Home Office | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
Minister brown brown Brown, lab's shadow leader of the Commons, | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Angela Eagle, the Conservative MP, adviser to David Cameron, Claire | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
Perry, the former Tory MP, Neil Hamilton, who lost his seat over | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
accusations he took cash for asking questions if in the House of | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
Commons, a charge he denies. And he now sits on UKIP's National | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Executive. And the radical left- wing film maker, Ken Loach. | :01:00. | :01:10. | |
:01:10. | :01:14. | ||
APPLAUSE I should just say, obviously if we | :01:14. | :01:22. | |
get any news from the by-election, we'll bring it to you, and Andrew | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
Neil's programme follows Question Time and it will stay on air until | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
the result is announced. Our first question, from Jon Senior, please. | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
What lessons does the bruising election campaign in Eastleigh have | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
for the parties at the general election in 2015? | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
The election is over, so you can all speak your minds. I hope there | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
are people here who voted in the election. What lesson does this | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
election hold for the parties in the general election. Do you think | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
your party has beaten the stpwirs third place? I think Eastleigh -- | :02:01. | :02:10. | |
Has beaten the Torys into third place? I think Eastleigh, there is | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
everything to play for for UKIP. Get used to UKIP, because we'll be | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
providing the real choice in 2015. Labour, Liberals and the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
Conservatives are all led by euro fanatic leaders and are wholly | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
committed to membership of the EU, which stops us from doing so much | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
that we want to do - stopping open- door immigration and cutting taxes | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
and so forth. So you don't think we'll have a referendum on Europe? | :02:44. | :02:52. | |
The last time he reneged on the Lisbon Treaty. I'm personally sorry | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
for the amount of rubbish I have put through your doors and | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
contributed to your recycling. You must be happy that the caravan is | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
moving on. Apologies from all of us. You bored the electorate did you? | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
We welled the electorate. There are leaflets yesterdayisation, I've | :03:16. | :03:24. | |
made my mind up, just go away. That was good. Immigration, which is | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
down 30% year on year, but people are busy, they have busy lives. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
They are not all tuning in to watch political programmes. We need to be | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
talking about the things that matter to people, the cost of | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
living and local issues. The lesson we should take away if we are | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
trying to talk about the big, important stuff like fixing Britain, | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
we have to keep making it relevant. No-one here tonight is going to go | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
home and say, hooray, the deficit is down. You are going to think | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
about filling your car. We should get into our constituencies and be | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
normal. Are you saying fuel duty is coming down? We've frozen it every | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
time... Sit coming down? Well, we've spent �5 billion helping | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
motorists, I would love it to come down. You think you have come third | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
to UKIP? I would love to see some fantastic, more fantastic women in | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
Parliament, across all parties. If we don't get Maria in we are | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
missing a chance to get in a really great candidate. If she hasn't won? | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
If she hasn't won. Do you think the Liberal Democrats have won, Jeremy | :04:45. | :04:55. | |
Browne? I don't know. Do you think? I hope we have. That's obvious too. | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
As everybody here will testify, the parties have fought themselves to a | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
bit of a standstill. I think the big message, you look at the | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
opinion polls, you look at the difficulties the parties in | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
Government have trying to get our country back on its feet in | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
extremely difficult times. You look at the circumstances, let's be | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
blunt about it, under Which? By- election was called. I don't think | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
anybody would think the Liberal Democrats have had a good week in | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
terms of national media coverage. Against that backdrop the big story | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
for me is not that the Liberal Democrats are crumbling away but | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
the resilience. We had the best candidate, I think that was | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
accepted by people who didn't even vote for him. We are here year on | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
year and day in and day out, not just flying the flag at election | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
time. I think people have appreciated that level of service | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
and the care we've shown to the people of that community. I hope | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
that is a winning combination and we'll show people tonight that the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
Liberal Democrats are alive and kicking. I have one comment on the | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
literature that came round to. My mind it was lots of pretty pictures | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
mainly of candidates and sometimes of green fields. It said very | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
little. There was lots of paper with not a lot of information on it. | :06:16. | :06:25. | |
But vote today? Yes I did. Were you torn between the 14 parties? | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
didn't vote for any of the minor contenders. Although some of them | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
had very interesting points they clearly weren't going to get in and | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
it would've been a wasted vote. Personally I regret that Chris | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
Huhne is not still standing. I think he was a politician of great | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
significance, with what I felt was a very strong view which I agreed | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
with on climate change and energy policy. I think we've lost a | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
considerable personality there. APPLAUSE Angela Eagle? Well, I | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
don't think anyone could say that this is our biggest ever prospect | :07:09. | :07:17. | |
in the country. I think we would have a majority of 362 if we had | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
taken Eastleigh, but what we've done is fought a vigorous campaign, | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
gone around and talked to a lot of people about the things that matter | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
to them. There is no doubt that immigration's been a big issue in | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
the campaign here. We've had discussions about what we can do to | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
deal with that, to bring it down, to ensure that no foreign worker | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
should take a job at less than minimum wage and be exploitsed and | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
forced down people's wages, that we can deal with exploitative agencies | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
who only employ foreign people and bring them in. What lessons does | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
this campaign... To get out on the doorstep, to talk, listen and react. | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
Clare wants Maria to win but I think that it is a lot more | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
important than that for the Conservative Party. This is they | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
are 16th target Lib Dem seat. They need to win this seat, so they can | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
win the next election. I think it's 258 on our list, so if the | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
Conservatives tonight fail to take the seat and the circumstances that | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Jeremy's alluded to, the difficult times they've been having, that | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
would be a worrying result for them. I also think... Hold on a second | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
Angela. If the Conservatives come third they've got a right to be | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
very worried. This is only informal but the latest tweeting from a | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Liberal Democrat councillor is the Liberal Democrats have held the | :08:55. | :09:05. | |
:09:05. | :09:09. | ||
seat and UKIP is second. Last time the Conservatives won an an overall | :09:09. | :09:18. | |
majority, last time they came second and now they are fourth. | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
do think it is much more serious than this. The Westminster tittle- | :09:25. | :09:35. | |
:09:35. | :09:35. | ||
tattle we are listening to is what puts people off politics. APPLAUSE | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
I think there's a lot of people in this country who share a lot of | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
thoughts. They hate the break-up of the NHS. They hate the | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
privatisations and the outsources and the labour agencies and the low | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
wages. They hate the mass unemployment. They hate the casual | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
destruction of the environment that we see, and the gentleman referred | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
to. And there isn't a broad movement, a broad party that they | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
can vote for. People spend a lot of time saying, who are we going to | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
hold our nose and vote for? We need a broad movement on the left the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
one thing I have in common with Neil is UKIP have done it for the | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
right. I disagree with everything that UKIP stands for... APPLAUSE | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
But, we need a broad movement of the left. It is now time it came | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
together. How would you get that? Every time the party moves to the | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
left, historically it seems to have lost votes. Well, I think there are | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
a number of things that should happen. The unions should stop | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
paying money to a party that's going to kick it in the teeth. The | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
Labour Party is a market economy party. It won't look after the | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
interests of working people, so I think the Labour Party should cut | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
off that tap and we should start again like they started over a | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
century again and form a new Labour Party. There'll be a problem, | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
because there was an a protecting the NHS candidate here, who I'm | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
sure said good things, and a good trade union canned day. But they | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
get no presentation. Every time I turned on the BBC or ITV to see the | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
election discussed, you never saw that point of view. There's got to | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
be a determination that the left has its voice, because it is | :11:31. | :11:40. | |
has its voice, because it is excluded at the moment. APPLAUSE | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
The gentleman alluded to the surprising number of independent | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
and minority parties that stood in this election. We've heard there's | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
a possibility that UKIP may have surprisingly come second - sorry | :11:55. | :12:03. | |
Neil. I love you too! Is that a simpton of perhaps the electorate | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
being sick of the big three parties? That so many people stand? | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
Absolutely is. There a certain frustration. There is a huge degree | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
of voter alienation in this country. I entirely agree with Ken. The vast | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
majority of the people of this country have lost faith in our | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
political system. When I was young, 85% of the country voted in the | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
general election. Last time it was down to 60%. The lifeblood of | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
political parties has been sucked out. They no longer represent real | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
people. Ken was right this, Westminster tittle-tattle, they are | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
all Westminster politicians, not all, Clare wasn't, but there is so | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
much careerism in politics today, you don't have the trade unions in | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
Parliament. Yes you do. Not so much as in the 1960s. The big lesson of | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
what lesson are we going to learn is that politicians have got to be | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
real again and not be in this bubble in Westminster wholly remote | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
from real people. We get your point. Third is what we are told | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
Conservatives are going to be. What will the effect of that be on the | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
Tory Party and on the Prime Minister? The last time the | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
governing party won a by-election was during the Falklands war, when | :13:26. | :13:36. | |
:13:36. | :13:49. | ||
10, you talk about mass unemployment, unemployment is | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
coming down. Whereas the apology from Labour for the appalling | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
things that happen under Labour's what? I accept that politics is | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
broken. These people have been in Parliament a longer time than me. | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
We need people to come in who are committed to transparency and want | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
to fix Britain. If we look at what is happening between our two | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
parties who came together in the national interest, things are | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
improving. It is tough medicine. is not working. Growth is | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
increasing and employment -- unemployment is coming down. Growth | :14:21. | :14:29. | |
is not increasing. Wait, we will come to the economy in a moment. | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
Let me hear from a couple more members of the public. The problem | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
is that there is no alternative, is there? Pick Aberdyfi UKIP because | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
it is different. Batman people have voted for UKIP because it is | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
different. But Labour, Conservative and the Liberal Democrats are just | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
different colours. There is no real choice. | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
In a similar vein, getting to their election campaign, all the three | :15:00. | :15:07. | |
main parties did sound very scripted. On the campaign trail, | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
they all sounded similar. I would like to congratulate the Labour | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
candidate. I did not vote for him, but at least he came across as | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
fallible, funny, interesting and willing to talk about his own | :15:19. | :15:28. | |
agenda. And a loser at! I will take one more point and then go to | :15:28. | :15:36. | |
another question. Actually, the Labour Party candidate, I thought | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
the quote in his book about Margaret Thatcher was the most vile | :15:40. | :15:48. | |
thing I have ever heard. How anyone could put that is beyond me. Then | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
we had the Conservative candidate, who gave us a potted history of | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
Roman Eastleach, which made the Eastleigh residents laugh with | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
gusto, because it was just a field. Who did you go for? Lib Dem. Well, | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
I would have done. I am actually a Lib Dem councillor. A planted | :16:07. | :16:17. | |
:16:17. | :16:18. | ||
audience! If we get any more news from the by election fund, I will | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
let you know. Let's have this question from Michael Fitzgerald. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Following the loss of the triple A rating, isn't it time we stepped | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
down the austerity and concentrate into on growing the economy? Let's | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
stick to the Ohuruogu about whether the Government should change its | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
policy with the loss of the trouble a rating. Was not trade too many | :16:40. | :16:41. | |
statistics that are incomprehensible to anyone except | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
the person who using them. Claire Perry? Well, nobody is celebrating | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
that we have lost a measure of Britain's responsibility. But the | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
question I constantly wrestle with and one of the reasons I came into | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
politics is, we know we had a borrowing crisis. We can either | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
borrow more, and I would love to hear Angela explain how borrowing | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
more means you borrow less, all we can tackle this deficit so our | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
children don't have to. Since the election, the global growth | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
forecasts have been downgraded. We have had a head wind of slow growth | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
across the world that has hit Britain's ability to grow. But the | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
government is trying to stop spending money on things that don't | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
deliver value and focus forensically on investment in | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
infrastructure. We are seeing it here and in the south-west. We are | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
spending half a billion quid in terms of new rail links to the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
south-west. We are spending an enormous rail in -- an enormous | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
amount on CrossRail and high-speed rail. And we have created a million | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
jobs in the private sector since the election. It is slow and | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
difficult, but it is working. did you lose your trouble a rating | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
if it is working? If you read the small print, it says that if we did | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
not have this commitment to sorting out Britain's problems, the rating | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
would go down even further. If you want to join in this debate, get in | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
touch. We have a put a panellist tonight, the blogger Mark Wallace. | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
His day job is head off the Media Institute of Directors. You can | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
text commenced to us. Press the red button to see what others are | :18:30. | :18:40. | |
:18:40. | :18:40. | ||
saying. Claire Perry says we are losing a measure of our credit | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
rating. But it is a measure that her party said it was important. | :18:44. | :18:54. | |
Surely this is a complete failure of the government's policy? | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
other side of the coalition, take up the cudgel? Like every Western | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
economy, we have a huge fight on our hands. The question is, are we | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
up for that fight as a country, or are we running away from it? Do we | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
lose our nerve? I think we have to be up for that fight, because all | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
of these countries across the western world have a pretty dire | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
economic outlook. Unless governments show the resolve to get | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
to grips with that and balance the books, the situation will get worse | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
rather than better. When this coalition government was formed in | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
2010, almost three years ago, for every �3 the Government was raising | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
in tax, it was spending �4. That is completely unsustainable. Whether | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
it is your household, your business or your country, you can't live | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
beyond your means indefinitely, so we are having to turn that round, | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
and we are making progress. The deficit is down by a quarter. About | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
a million jobs have been created in the private sector. We have low | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
interest rates. But will this be achieved overnight? No., and nor is | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
it being over -- achieved overnight in other countries across Europe. | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
There is a general election in Italy this week. I don't think they | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
will be able to form a coherent coalition government that can get | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
to grips with their problems. We have in this country. But for all | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
the rhetoric, it was George Osborne who made this the first of his | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
eight conditions for the economy. It was he who said the triple-A | :20:27. | :20:37. | |
:20:37. | :20:42. | ||
rating was what he would be judged by. The two major economies that | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
have the top rating are Germany and Canada, and there are other two | :20:46. | :20:54. | |
countries that have got to grips with their deficit. Angela Eagle? | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
We now have two governments boat people talking about this, but the | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
loss of the trouble -- the triple-A rating is a total humiliation for | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
the Chancellor. He has failed the test he set himself as the number | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
one priority in the Tory manifesto, and that is because his economic | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
policy is failing. He has flatlined the economy, there is no growth | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
because he sucked the life out of the economy. What would you do? | :21:18. | :21:28. | |
:21:28. | :21:30. | ||
Borrow more? Stop interrupting me. The issue here is that the | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
government's policy is failing. Claire, you say there have been a | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
million jobs new created, but you have sacked 520,000 people from the | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
public sector. You have reclassified 200,000 people from | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
the education sector into the private sector. So one-in-five of | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
the half million extra jobs there are are actually fiddled. But there | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
are more jobs. And there are over a million people who want more powers | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
and are under-employed. They are suffering from squeezed living | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
standards. What would you do? have no policy. Claire, let me | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
check this. -- let me chair this. You may get on very well with the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
Speaker, he will get on less well with me if he did accept my | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
chairmanship. You can't talk over of the body. She is doing a pretty | :22:30. | :22:38. | |
good job so far. We have to have a fiscal stimulus. We need to try to | :22:38. | :22:45. | |
get people back to work. We have to cancel the tax cut for millionaires | :22:45. | :22:52. | |
that is coming in in April. And we have to introduce a 10 pence tax | :22:52. | :23:01. | |
rate. Do you borrow more, or not? There is good borrowing and bad | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
borrowing. If you borrow to invest in infrastructure, to build houses, | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
to put unemployed construction workers back to work, to create a | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
place where homeless people can live, that is good borrowing. If | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
you borrow �212 billion extra because your economic policies are | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
failing and the economy has ground to a halt, that is bad borrowing. | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
So your response would be to borrow more. You have to borrow more in | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
the short term, to put people back to work, to create infrastructure. | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
Claire Perry said they were investing in rail. All of that | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
investment is in the next Parliament. High Speed 2 will not | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
happen until the mid- 2020s, and not finish and which the North | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
until 2035. That investment will not get us out of the difficulty we | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
are in now. She alight introduce an air of reality into this | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
discussion? The reason why the Government has lost its triple-A | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
rating is because the ratings agency think they have not got to | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
grips with the deficit. And they are right. You would think there | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
would have been massive cuts from the way this discussion has gone. | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
Actually, government spending has increased since the last general | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
election. It was 670 billion in 2010. It is 730 billion this year. | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
This year, the deficit will still be �130 billion. These are colossal | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
sums of money. We can't go on burning money in this way. Hard | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
decisions have to be taken. Angela Eagle's policy is preposterous, to | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
borrow our way out of debt. That is not what I said. I said there is | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
some good borrowing for investment. If we had a Labour government | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
committed that, you would not have a double A rating, you would have a | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
double Z rating from the ratings agency. And that would make it more | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
expensive for everybody to borrow. It would be the kiss of death for | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
the economy. Jeremy was right in pointing out that Canada and | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
Germany have got the triple-A rating because they have got to | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
grips with their financial problems. They have got surpluses. Let's hear | :25:15. | :25:24. | |
from some members of our audience. The lady said we need to get more | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
construction jobs in this country. But I am unemployed, and I look on | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
the JobCentre website for jobs, and I would say almost half of the jobs | :25:34. | :25:43. | |
are for construction and places. The most available jobs are for | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
construction and nurses. So there are obviously places for people to | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
work. If you are building the high- speed railways and things like that, | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
you are not making jobs, you are just moving people off from some | :25:58. | :26:05. | |
two others. But non-jobs suitable for you? No. I could not go and | :26:05. | :26:14. | |
start bricklaying. Let me go back to Angela's point | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
about good borrowing and by a boring. What was the past Labour | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
government's boring, good or bad? Well, the issue here is that if you | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
are going to borrow money to do things that helped the country in | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
the future like build infrastructure projects at very low | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
interest rates, capital expenditure, that is a good thing. So the Brown | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
borrowing was good borrowing, was it? It re-equip the economy. We did | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
not have a recession and a banking crisis in 38 countries because we | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
spent too much on schools and hospitals. It is a massive failure. | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
Osborne said there was a test. He failed. The structural deficit has | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
also gone down the pan, but only through creative -- the deficit has | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
gone down a bit, but only through creative accounting. They are | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
failing on every front. But the economy lives in people, not just | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
in statistics and people's speeches. It lives in people. We have an | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
economy in a terrible state. There are 2.5 million people out of work. | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
1 million of them are young people. What future are we given to them? | :27:32. | :27:41. | |
And of course, there are all these cuts. The 1000 richest people since | :27:42. | :27:50. | |
the crisis began, their wealth has increased by �155 billion. The | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
range of inequality is massive. And meanwhile, the bottom 10%, the | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
poorest families, through these cuts, their average income has been | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
cut by 30%. This is 30% of nothing. People are living on air. So yes, | :28:06. | :28:14. | |
we have to change. We need a whole new economic strategy that gives | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
people a decent way of life. We are not doing it at the moment. And the | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
free market will not do it. It cannot do it. You never hear | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
politicians talking about full employment now. Never, because they | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
know they can't provide it. And if we can't give our kids the prospect | :28:32. | :28:42. | |
:28:42. | :28:49. | ||
of a secure life with work, then Ken, I think it is an interesting | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
concept, but what is it we want people to do? Do we want to grow | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
our way out of this recession? By the way, the right thing to do, | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
Angela, would be to put something aside when the times were good. | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
you answer Ken Loach's point? your market economic system, will | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
you ever see full employment again? Are we going keep training kids in | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
the right things, getting manufacturing, you are talking down | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
the British chi. We are exporting more British cars now. Do you want | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
to employ nerve the state? We've tried that, under Labour in the | :29:30. | :29:37. | |
state, we have to have private sector growth daging us out of the | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
recession. -- dragging us out of the recession. If AAA is not bad at | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
what point is the rating bad that the Government would worry about | :29:51. | :29:59. | |
that, an A or a B? I take that question was rhetorical. You don't | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
seem the realise that the practical results of losing the AAA rating at | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
the moment is that in the local area we are losing 800 jobs at Ford, | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
which no politician fought for... APPLAUSE Not a single one of you | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
fought for that, the unemployment ratings in the cities have gone up, | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
so that unemployment rating sucks as well. APPLAUSE Straight away on | :30:28. | :30:35. | |
the back of that credit rate dropping, we lost was it 26, 26 out | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
of 28 housing associations had their credit rating dropped the | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
other day, so they are not a good investment. There is not going be | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
no more social housing built. the BBC had its credit rating | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
dropped, the properties in London and Salford have had their credit | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
rating reduced because they didn't know what's going to happen to the | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
BBC. I want to go on to another question. This is from Anjelica | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
Finnegan, please. Is the British political system a safe place for | :31:10. | :31:20. | |
:31:20. | :31:23. | ||
women to work? APPLAUSE | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
The allegations against Lord Rennard, the former chief executive | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
of the Liberal Democrats, that led to this allegation, that he | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
absolutely denies. Jeremy, Brown, is the political system a safe | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
place in the light of everything we've been hearing? The question is | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
clearly aimed, as you just say David, at the revelation which have | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
been extensively covered in the media this week. Let me put it like | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
this. When I joined the Liberal Democrats I joined the Lib Dems, | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
this makes me a career politician, when I was 18 years old. I joined | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
the Lib Dems because I believed in the values of the party. I believed | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
in liberalism. I believed that you could combine being responsible | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
with the economy with having an enlightened, compassionate, | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
generous-spirited society where people could be free but also | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
realise their full potential. I want people who share those | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
instinctive Liberal values, regardless of whether they are men | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
or women, or their ethnicity, their age or whatever else it might be, | :32:25. | :32:33. | |
to feel they can join the Lib Dems, be a Lib Dem councilor or stand for | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
Parliament, and if there are people in this case, women, who feel they | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
couldn't pursue their Liberal instincts within the Liberal | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
Democrat party that is profoundly wrong and at source of great regret | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
to me and the party as a whole. We are now going to have two inquiries. | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
One into the specific allegations and one into our internal | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
complaints procedures. In a way there is no more I can say about it | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
at this stage. Those inquiries have to run their courses. Lord Rennard | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
has denied the allegations that have been made. Obviously it is | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
only reasonable that everybody concern should have a fair hearing | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
as part of that process. We are very committed to making sure that | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
people who share our Liberal values and instincts should have a home in | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
the Liberal Democrats. Do you think Nick Clegg handled it well? He | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
seemed to be all over the place, saying one thing and then another. | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
For me the rolling media story about who said what to whom at what | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
point isn't the central feature. To me, the central feature is that the | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
women who make these allegations, understandably feel upset. They | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
feel aggrieved. They are allegations that we take seriously. | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
That's why Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats have set up these | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
two inquiries. They will be full, thorough inquiries and we will get | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
to the bottom of the truth. Obviously we want to make sure the | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
Liberal Democrats is a party that is appealing to women as well as | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
male members. I hope and believe that will also help the political | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
culture right across the board. I'm not just saying this to deflect | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
attention, but I don't think this is a situation that's unique to one | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
particular party. I hope it leads the wider cultural change. I don't | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
believe you are taking it seriously actually. I don't think the way | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
obviously with Nick Clegg trying to avoid it was taking it seriously. I | :34:35. | :34:42. | |
don't think this is just going to be a problem in the Lib Dems. I'm | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
doing a PhD in politics and teach a lot of students parliamentary and | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
constitutional politics in Britain. I don't know what to tell some of | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
the girls in my class, because I don't think they are going to have | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
the right opportunities to pursue a career this politics and I don't | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
think I would encourage them either. Angela Eagle? I think it is | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
unacceptable that women are put in this position and it shouldn't be | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
tolerated in any political party in any workplace and in our society | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
more generally. This is an issue that's often not talked about. It | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
needs to come to the surface and be dealt with. Women who are victims | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
of this need to be taken seriously and treated with respect. All too | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
often in many workplaces and in many instances we know that women | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
are basically pressurised into not saying anything, because they know | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
the consequences for them will be worse than the consequences for the | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
perpetrator. This is about the behaviour of men. In many ways men | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
need to stop and think about that and see that's unacceptable. We | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
need to develop different norms in our society. If this issue and the | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
way that it has come out helps us do, that all the better, but there | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
are too many places in our society that are male dominate, where the | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
power structures are male dominated and where this unacceptable | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
behaviour to women goes on and is tolerated. We need to put an end to | :36:09. | :36:18. | |
it. APPLAUSE And do you include the Labour Party in those strictures? | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
I've just said it happens everywhere. We've all got to ensure | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
that we've got the right processes in place to put a stop to it. I | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
think that it's far less tolerated in some places than others. | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
Feminism, that word, we have made progress in some places more than | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
others The Labour Party we have women-only short-lists. We've had | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
some big instances about women's advancement and equality in the | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
Labour Party. I think we are further along than many places. We | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
are often derided for it though. Harriet Harman has been a doughty | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
fighter for women's rights. In all her years in Parliament and she is | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
derided as Harriet "Harperson". We were all called Blair's Babes, | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Cameron's Cuties. The way that politics is covered is not | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
respectable. Women need to be treated with respect for their own | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
political ideas. Until we change our culture it is very hard to get | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
51% of people in this country who've a right to be many politics | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
and change the culture of our politics, which is what we all need | :37:28. | :37:34. | |
to do. If we can do that, we can change our country far faster and | :37:34. | :37:41. | |
in a far more profound way than we have today, so let's get to it, | :37:41. | :37:49. | |
women, and sort this out. APPLAUSE I would like to ask, how do you | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
actually, how do you propose that you go about doing that? I believe | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
a few years ago you tried that and you were hit by a legal pursuit I | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
believe in trying... The women-only short-list. Yes. We changed the law | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
and we are now legal. I think the fascinating thing, if this had been | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
a female of any note there would have been lots of commentary about | :38:12. | :38:19. | |
her meerns, her age. This chap is not a looker, -- about her | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
appearance, her age, this chap is not a looker. I agree with ang lamb. | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
I think this is an endemic problem in all institutions that don't have | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
enough women in it. Ladies, I don't care what political party you are | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
part of, just get involved. If our voices aren't there, nobody else is | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
speaking up for us. That is the only way it changes. I think 50-50 | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
is the system I was selected under. I think that's fair. We don't have | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
enough women coming through the political system of all ages, of | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
all types. That's what we have to change. Back to your original | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
question, yes it is safe to go into politics. I would rather be a | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
female MP in Britain than in Italy or Afghanistan. But we can do a lot | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
better than we are doing now, so please, ladies, get involved and | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
get your voices heard. Men have to change too. The Liberal Democrats | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
turned a blind eye to this didn't they? Nick Clegg's recollection is | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
just the fact that he turned a blind eye to it, and did the senior | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
Lib Dems. That will be true in the Savile case as well. There is | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
something else, it is not just the treatment of women but people | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
aren't owning up to it or seeing it in the workplace and doing | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
something about it. Ken Loach? The only thing I would add to what | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
Angela says, which I agree, with it is about power. It is a form of | :39:51. | :39:59. | |
bullying. It is the abuse of power by people who are no in a superior | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
position against people in an inferior position in the hierarchy. | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
They fear for their jobs. They fear for their careers. They feel that - | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
- they fear that something bad will happen to them in the organisation, | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
and that's wrong. It's the abuse of power. I think there are cases | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
where women have been involved. I don't think it is... Mainly men, I | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
grant you. Whether the guy was good looking or not isn't the point. Was | :40:28. | :40:35. | |
a cheap shot. APPLAUSE We've got to be much more serious than that. It | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
is an absolute evil in big organisations and we've all seen it | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
at different times. Angela is right. Everyone has to stand up and say | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
this is not on. I agree, there has been a bit of a cover-up. We can't | :40:50. | :40:57. | |
lump all sex scandals together. This is not ped fillia. It is not | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
the Savile -- this is not paedophilia. It is not the Savile | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
issue. Plainly they are not. Ken, do you think something's happened | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
as a result of the Savile exposures, which is that has been followed by | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
more and more allegations of various kinds of sexual harassment | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
which we had never heard before. could well be that. The danger of | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
that of course is that there is then a witch-hunt. That's also a | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
danger, because people are innocent until they've been proved guilty. | :41:32. | :41:42. | |
:41:42. | :41:42. | ||
We must not forget that as well. APPLAUSE You Sir. I think the issue | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
about a "zero tolerance" towards sexual discrimination isn't really | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
contentious. It's a very important point, I don't want to dismiss it, | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
but I don't want to use it as an excuse to ignore that feg lied. I | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
think in this age when the trust between the trust and the | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
politicians at an all-time low. Chris Huhne was a liar, despite | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
what the gentleman said earlier. Nick Clegg lied and we shouldn't | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
ignore that. What was his lie? said he didn't know anything about | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
it and it has emerged that he does. That's unforgivable and people need | :42:19. | :42:26. | |
to say, that's wrong. After his I'm sorry video, it doesn't really feel | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
like he is. APPLAUSE Jeremy Browne, you can answer that specific point, | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
that he lied. My understanding is not that. My understanding is that | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
the differentiation that Nick Clegg made was between understanding | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
broad rumours that were within an organisation or hearing those | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
rumours and knowing about specific allegations that he could act on. | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
There's a distinction between those two. But I've already said that any | :42:56. | :43:04. | |
person who feels that they have Liberal values and wants to pursue | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
that through the Liberal Democrats but doesn't feel able to for | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
whatever reason, including this reason, that's wrong and that's why | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
we are having these inquiries and we want to change that culture if | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
it economists. I'm up front about that. We need to learn from what's | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
happened. Neil Hamilton? I have a rather Newcastle sideline to this. | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
I think I may be the only member on the panel who was arrested on | :43:31. | :43:40. | |
suspicion of rape. True. It was a false allegation. One thing you can | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
never say about the Hamilton household, it is not dull. The girl | :43:47. | :43:55. | |
ended up serving a prison sentence for perjury and perverting the | :43:55. | :44:02. | |
course of justice. I believe that the anti-dleevian attitudes which | :44:02. | :44:10. | |
have been -- antediluvian attitudes which have been exposed. It raise | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
as few eyebrows. And you get extraordinary responses to these | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
allegation, such as the one reported in this evening's Evening | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
Standard, a Liberal peer, said apparently if this sort of | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
behaviour was really found to be a resignation matter about half the | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
male members over 50 would not be seen. Well, that doesn't seem to be | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
to be the appropriate response to what are very serious and | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
distressing allegations. It is that kind of attitude which should be | :44:41. | :44:51. | |
:44:51. | :44:59. | ||
Exeter patiented in this country. Are there any women here who fear | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
they have been harassed in the professions in this way? I have | :45:03. | :45:10. | |
been harassed, and I worked as a social worker. It was a colleague | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
who was inappropriate. As I was getting into my car, and I wound | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
his head in the window. Then I reported it to my female line | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
manager, and something was done about it. But it was sad to find | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
out I was not his first victim. But what I would like to say to Jeremy | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
is, I am surprised you have not been watching the news. If you had | :45:32. | :45:39. | |
been, you would have seen this playing out. What Nick Clegg said | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
was a lie. He said, I know nothing about it. But yes, he did. So I can | :45:45. | :45:53. | |
only say to you, if I believe you, we would both be wrong. What I mean | :45:53. | :46:02. | |
by that is, I am right, you are wrong. I watched it. Let me go back | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
to the gentleman's point. I don't want us to focus on the political. | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
The BBC got itself into a huge turmoil over the Jimmy Savile | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
affair. There are victims here. We have to sort out the problem. We | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
should not get galloping down a political who said what to think. | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
The problem is that crimes have potentially been committed. There | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
is a culture that is not healthy, and that is the issue to deal with, | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
not the political nonsense that goes around it. Is it right for | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
Brussels to cap bankers' bonuses? This is the attempt to announce | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
today that they will try to cap bankers' bonuses, unless | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
shareholders decide they can have twice their salary. Is it right for | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
Brussels to do this? Neil Hamilton, you have strong views about Europe. | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
Thus the reality of the European Union. If David Cameron thinks he | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
can renegotiate all sorts of powers back from Europe, here is an issue | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
which goes to the heart of the City of London's interests, which the | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
Government has concentrated she strongly on defending and got | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
nowhere in the negotiations. It will not achieve its purpose, | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
because the trouble with the laws of this kind is that people will | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
always find their way around them. We may be able to cap bankers' | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
bonuses, but a likely consequence of this will be that they will push | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
up their basic salaries, which will make life more difficult for the | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
banks, because their fixed costs will increase significantly. And it | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
will be difficult for them to get flexibility to iron out the impact | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
of changes in the economic cycle. They like paying by bonuses, | :47:47. | :47:54. | |
because that is a performance- related element of pay. Looking at | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
it from the bank's point of view, if the choice is between increasing | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
people's salaries by a colossal amount and only paying them when | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
the banks make profits, it is sensible for the banks to choose | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
the latter rather than the formal. You also have a peculiar situation | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
where banking is a highly competitive global business. So it | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
is very footloose and fancy-free. With internet trading, these things | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
can be done from anywhere. You have global banks with people doing | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
exactly the same job in Tokyo, New York, Singapore, London. And people | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
in London uniquely are having their salaries capped, so where are these | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
people going to go? Away from London, and that means we are all | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
poorer. Paying these bonuses has seemed preposterous at times, but | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
the Treasury has been the biggest beneficiary in the tax which is | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
charged upon them. If we lose all that, we as individuals will be | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
poorer. This is yet another example of politicians in Europe, none of | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
whom have the slightest experience of what they are doing, who are | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
legislating in a way which will cost the earth for us. Their only | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
qualification is that they support the euro, the biggest financial | :49:09. | :49:18. | |
calamity in the entire Continent. Calm down! Jeremy Browne, as a pro | :49:18. | :49:24. | |
European, can you throw light on this? If this is under the Social | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
Policy, article 151, there is a provision that nothing should apply | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
to pay. In other words, is it permissible for Europe to say that | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
they will control the pay of bankers? My understanding is that | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
they say this is not pay, this is extra to pay, so it is within their | :49:43. | :49:50. | |
remit. It is not pay? I am not here to answer on behalf of the European | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
Commission. But money that I hand to you in return for your work, I | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
wonder what that is? I agree. I am in the strange position of agreeing | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
with a lot of what Neill said. It might look superficially attractive | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
to a lot of people who are understandably angry about the | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
behaviour of bankers and their seeming contempt for wider society. | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
But I am not sure it will achieve the objectives that some people | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
hope it will. At the moment, somebody who is paid �1 million for | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
the �2 million bonus, does that mean their bonus will go down to �1 | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
million? No, it means they will get the overall same take-home pay they | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
did before. There is an ideological distinction between nationalised | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
banks and none-nationalised banks. Nationalised banks should behave | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
much more like public servants and be much more respectful towards the | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
taxpayers who pay their salaries. But I don't think the government, | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
whether in Brussels or London, has the business of telling private | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
companies that do not rely on the state how much they should pay | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
their employees, as long as they pay them over the minimum wage. And | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
a Euro centric point - within a generation, Europe will have 5% of | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
the world population and 10% of the world economy. There is a big world | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
out there in Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, New York. London is one | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
of the most important cities in the world. It is important that we | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
understand that we are competing in a global environment. I don't want | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
to drive away wealth creators who contribute to our economy. It is | :51:29. | :51:39. | |
:51:39. | :51:39. | ||
not just the richest, it is people on lower pay, to our detriment. | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
it more that RBS, who have made a colossal loss of 500 bn because of | :51:46. | :51:54. | |
its PPI misselling, pays �250 million for bonuses? That is a very | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
good point, but it is a different point. I want to stick with the | :51:58. | :52:06. | |
idea of capping bonuses. The man at the bank? Thank you, Neil, for your | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
original point. If Chris Huhne had taken your advice on speeding | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
points, we would not be having this by-election. The scary thing is, | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
you mentioned Mr Cameron negotiating in Europe. The last | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
time we negotiated there, we ended up paying more from the EU budget, | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
while Germany paid less. I am pro- European. But if I work as a car | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
dealer and I sell 10 cars and my colleague cells two cars, I expect | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
to earn more than my colleagues. As long as it is performance related, | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
I have no problem with it. In and it's surprising how the rich have | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
to be tempted to work with salaries of millions, and the poor have to | :52:45. | :52:55. | |
:52:55. | :52:57. | ||
be driven to work for nothing, or else their benefits will be cut? | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
Neil gave a very long explanation of why banking is an unsatisfactory | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
way off organising the way we decide what we produce, how we are | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
paid and how the world is run. This casino banking is actually just | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
gambling by a very rich people, with your lives and my life. That | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
is why we need a new system. The banks should be taken into public | :53:21. | :53:29. | |
ownership. Then we direct what we should produce, and we do it in a | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
fair way and protect the environment and live properly. RBS | :53:33. | :53:41. | |
is mainly owned by the people. As the gentleman says, it is behaving | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
very inappropriately, to use the current term for bad behaviour. | :53:48. | :53:55. | |
They are paying vast sums to their employees. So is the EU doing right | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
by try to cut the bonuses? You, the EU is absolutely doing right. The | :53:59. | :54:07. | |
EU is wrong in many respects, but in this respect, support it. Angela | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
Eagle, do you support this? First league, it should not have taken | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
the EU to be doing this, we should have been sorting out the bonus | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
culture with our banks more effectively than this Government | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
have done so far. Do you approve of what Brussels are doing? It is an | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
interesting idea. Do you approve of it? We have got to get a handle on | :54:27. | :54:36. | |
this bloated bonus culture. When Neil Hamilton says it is all | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
performance-related and we have got RBS making a �5 billion loss last | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
year and paying themselves 600 million in bonuses, it is a funny | :54:44. | :54:54. | |
:54:54. | :55:00. | ||
definition of performance. Is it Labour policy to support this? | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
want the government here to sort it out. They should have been doing | :55:03. | :55:10. | |
this earlier. We have a very large financial sector in the City. What | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
we do here will be far more effective than what the EU can do. | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
We need to get international agreements to kill the bonus | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
culture, and we need to deal with casino banking. It is not in this | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
country's interest to have banks that are so bloated, gambling with | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
money and our futures. We have to bring banking back to Kerrin about | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
its customers. Let me bring you back to the question. The Prime | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
Minister says he is worried about this proposal to cap bonuses | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
because of its effect on the banking industry here. Are you | :55:50. | :56:00. | |
:56:00. | :56:00. | ||
worried by it? He has to ensure that he can do a deal in Europe | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
that deals with the bloated banking culture and ensures that this | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
country can be properly looked after. He has no allies in Europe. | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
He was in a minority of one. He should be demonstrating that we can | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
put a stop to the bonus culture here, and they have failed. Today | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
we had Boris Johnson defending bonuses. I must stop you. Claire | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
Perry? I sit here, and I am absolutely gobsmacked by some of | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
the things you say. Bonuses tripled under your government. The British | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
banking industry was one of the most lightly regulated industries | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
in the world. I worked in financial services. A bid to get good | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
bonuses? No. Never has so much been paid to so many for doing so little | :56:52. | :57:02. | |
:57:02. | :57:04. | ||
on your watch. We have to regulate it properly, which we are doing, to | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
ring-fence the casino banking from the commercial banking. You have | :57:09. | :57:17. | |
made virtually no progress in three years. Please stop interrupting. | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
They are not lending. This is an industry that employs 1 million | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
people and generates �100 billion a year in taxes, which funds the | :57:26. | :57:34. | |
public services we all want. Is it right or wrong for Brussels to do | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
this? Brussels does not have a financial services industry. | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
Britain has the biggest financial services industry in Europe, and we | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
need to regulate it properly. It is not up to Brussels. They are just | :57:46. | :57:54. | |
trying to grab the British powers. It was the bankers who got us into | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
this mess, so if dropping their bonuses makes them go abroad, I say, | :57:59. | :58:07. | |
good. Our time is up, so we must end there. Andrew Neil is on your | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
next with a special election edition of This Week. They will | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
have the results of this by- election, which we have been trying | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
to guess at. They will be on to the early hours until the results come | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
through. Next time, Question Time will be in Dover. We will have | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
Melanie Phillips and Bob Crowe among our panellists. The week | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
after that, we will be in Cardiff. To come to either programme, apply | :58:30. | :58:39. |